Capt. Mark Phillips [Archive]

Snapdragon

Apr. 9, 2008, 07:30 PM

Well, to add fuel to the fire, I think it started with him calling LLRs smurfs (may have started before then), graduated to

[MP's quote in Eventing magazine]
"I was dismayed to read last week that the $50,000 in prize money being put up for the AEC in September is to be split equally five ways between A, I, P, T, and N. For sure you will have some ecstatic novice and training riders, and I know how much the USEA values that part of their membership. However, if we want our advanced level rders to show up to give the championships the profile it deserves, you have to reward them a little better than those at the lower levels."

And . . . continue on until the present!

It's interesting to go back and read those threads from almost four years ago. Lots of the same things being said now.

Look, I think I see sunlight coming through those lovely clouds.:yes:

Gnep

Apr. 9, 2008, 07:43 PM

Oh well it is snowing since 3 am and it has not stoped and I have 4 great ideas for 4 great jumps.
And I thought I could beat up my women this week, well they got away this time, 50% chance for tomorrow and sunshine on Friday.
And I have been hunting for a new helmet, remembert yestaday, that the old one lawn darted twice last year, was told to replace it after the first time, but the way things go I forgot it and than I remembert that I needed a knew vest, wooped that thing 4 times last year and twice the year befor, I remembert first time I wooped it, Me and The Woman had a tumble in a turn, as I remember, must have been bout 6 years ago, gits kinde tough to remember after such a long a time an all the woopings in between, figure it must have been Galway or so, that was probably in the fall, so that year no more vest wooping, wooped it a few more times the next year, one with The Woman, I remember, when she used me as a skate board, that one was kinde ugly, had my boots and underwear filled with dirt, ugly. Now I got losted in vest wooping. I guess I wooped it 20 times since I got it and when I started to look for a new helmet I remembert that I was told to replace my vest the first time I wooped it, when The Woman and I took that tumble in that turn must have been round 6 years ago, as I remember, guess it was Galway or so, but the way things go I forgot about it, the replacing, I mean.

Mmmmmmmm, its still snowing and I figure the way the wind is blowing it will be at Reeds tonight, hope it dumps a real load on him, cause he has been on his Boy all the time geting ready for Greenwood, while I was shoveling snow and not geting The Women ready for Greenwood.

Mmmmmmmmmm, oh I started a huge fire today, had a gigantic pile, all the debree from the winter, big sucker, its still burning, not realy all the debree, but well some, ok ? Howhow, them flames were big enough to melt the snow from the trees 100 feet away.

Mmmmmmmm its still snowing and the wind is blowing towards Reed, I hope he gets burried him going to Greenwood

Mmmmmmmm, did I mention that I needed a new helmet, yes, ok, kinde hart to remember all that stuff

What were we talking about ?

LexInVA

Apr. 9, 2008, 07:45 PM

[edit]

4. He is arrogant.

5. He is a complete Tool for the people behind the USEF.

6. Small forest animals and children are scared of him.

I'm sure there are other reasons but that's what immediately came to mind.

chancellor2

Apr. 9, 2008, 07:53 PM

But Lex in VA, how do you REALLY feel?

LexInVA

Apr. 9, 2008, 07:56 PM

But Lex in VA, how do you REALLY feel?

I feel hungry. I think I may want to get a pizza. Papa John's has these two new pizzas that look absolutely yummy! One has six kinds of cheese and the other has different kinds of meat piled on it.

AppJumpr08

Apr. 9, 2008, 08:01 PM

Lex, you crack me up!!!

hehe

I've already got a glass of wine going... carry on everyone! :D

Hony

Apr. 9, 2008, 08:02 PM

I feel I should put a disclaimer here just so people know my intent: I am NOT in any way, shape, or form, trying to start a fight or any kind of drama on this forum. My question is this: why do people feel the way they do about CMP? From reading the threads, I've noticed a lot of...well, dislike towards him, and I've gathered bits and pieces of why. I just really don't know what is fuelling it - and I kind of feel like an idiot for having to ask! Anyone care to enlighten me? Thanks.

I have often wondered the same thing but just figured I was in the dark because I live in Canada.
The usual response is something like the following which is wildly entertaining but doesn't really explain it to me:

[edit]
4. He is arrogant.

5. He is a complete Tool for the people behind the USEF.

6. Small forest animals and children are scared of him.

I'm sure there are other reasons but that's what immediately came to mind.

Lex: I'm not trying to be difficult, this is a serious question. What does any of this have to do with his ability to produce the US team?

For example, a lot of people up here hate Eric Lamaze who just won the Canadian Equestrian of the Year award because of the time(s) he was caught doing drugs at the Olympics. These people are totally losing their minds over this because they see him as a poor role model. However, he paid the penalty for his infraction and has this year accomplished more winning than any other rider in the nation. It is not his job to be a role model, it is his job to be a good rider and he is.

I kind of see CMP as the same. It's not his job to be the most well liked. It is his job to turn out a great national team. Of course there is the argument that he hasn't done that but I hope you see what I mean.

I think the OP is looking for specific examples like the one that Snapdragon used.

AppJumpr08

Apr. 9, 2008, 08:03 PM

Lex: I'm not trying to be difficult, this is a serious question. What does any of this have to do with his ability to produce the US team?

it's hard to have a fantastic team when your courses cause many of our ULRs and horses to be injured or killed...

LexInVA

Apr. 9, 2008, 08:23 PM

I have often wondered the same thing but just figured I was in the dark because I live in Canada.
The usual response is something like the following which is wildly entertaining but doesn't really explain it to me:

Lex: I'm not trying to be difficult, this is a serious question. What does any of this have to do with his ability to produce the US team?

For example, a lot of people up here hate Eric Lamaze who just won the Canadian Equestrian of the Year award because of the time(s) he was caught doing drugs at the Olympics. These people are totally losing their minds over this because they see him as a poor role model. However, he paid the penalty for his infraction and has this year accomplished more winning than any other rider in the nation. It is not his job to be a role model, it is his job to be a good rider and he is.

I kind of see CMP as the same. It's not his job to be the most well liked. It is his job to turn out a great national team. Of course there is the argument that he hasn't done that but I hope you see what I mean.

I think the OP is looking for specific examples like the one that Snapdragon used.

Her question was not in reference to his job as coach. She simply asked why people don't like CMP. I gave an answer that suited the question. If you want to get into what people think of him as a coach, you have to frame the question as such or you will get all sorts of answers. Quite frankly, I don't think he has done anything useful for anyone but himself since he was imported for the job. He was just one part of the master plan that was conceived in hopes of bringing international glory and European respect to American equestrians. He wasn't hired for his coaching skills or his experience as a coach which was all but non-existent when he came here. He was brought here because he was a winner many years ago and brought bankability with his name that resulted in a very profitable partnership with the same people who gave us the USEF and the Dressage Performance Standards.

Clear Blue

Apr. 9, 2008, 08:28 PM

I kind of see CMP as the same. It's not his job to be the most well liked. It is his job to turn out a great national team. Of course there is the argument that he hasn't done that but I hope you see what I mean.

I think the OP is looking for specific examples like the one that Snapdragon used.

His public comments after Le Samurai's injury/death made it appear that he felt that horses were expendable. He offered only support and no criticism of AT.

He also said something about picking the team from those who can survive his courses (before RHHT).

deltawave

Apr. 9, 2008, 08:29 PM

And nobody in the UK wanted him. :D

Snapdragon

Apr. 9, 2008, 08:32 PM

As much as he hasn't endeared himself to the smurfs, the guy does have a job to do, and he's done a good job overall in that small arena. It's really unforturnate that he didn't embrace the smurfs (without calling them that), give encouragement, and have a more positive message (he needs a good PR person!) to the masses who make up eventing here. If he had, he could have been a well-liked bloke.

Not to beat a . . . well you get the picture. This problem/challenge, or whatever, goes way past him. And, it seems, things are looking up.

OP, if you do a google search or a search on COTH with his name alone or with "smurfs," you might get a better handle on why the uproar.

Vuma

Apr. 9, 2008, 08:35 PM

OP, to answer your question I think there is a quite simple answer.

An old African saying that I personally find relevant here....

"The tallest tree catches the most wind."

One can't deny this man has spent the greater part of his life dedicating himself to this sport and he is catching the blame for everything imaginable that is perceived to be unsafe.

pwynnnorman

Apr. 9, 2008, 08:39 PM

Quite frankly, I don't think he has done anything useful for anyone but himself since he was imported for the job.

He has found some mighty nice horses and put them together with some mighty talented riders, or so I hear.

I have to admit, I'm not fond of the guy's attitude, but he wasn't hired for his attitude. I get a little uncomfortable when folks get all frothing at the mouth because of someone's style and are quick to feel slighted by mere words. I've met so many people--horse people in particular--who are totally tactless. If you want to tolerate them--and lots do--you do. It's not like CMPs attitude is exactly rare in this (the horse industry) neighborhood. The fact is that some folks have chosen to find him intolerable.

Someone noted or speculated that he's paid (or otherwise rewarded) on the basis of medals won. OK, if that's true--if the man's JOB is to produce winning teams and individuals--I have a hard time blaming him for doing it. Indeed, why is it that basketball coaches, for example, can exhibit not dissimilar faults, but basketball fans don't want to lynch them (well, not if their teams win, that is)? I've always felt that the horse industry--and maybe even eventers in particular--are way too sensitive skinned.

Maybe the culture of eventing is different elsewhere, so CMP really just doesn't "get" how sensitive folks can be (and/or refuses to be bothered by it--after all, our very own Vice President has the same attitude...So?) Fact is, a lot of "winners" aren't the nicest of people. Come on, folks. We all know that, right? And CMPs attitude toward "smurfs" is probably not much different than some basketball coach's attitude toward the women's team or the intermural team or the junior varsity. It's not their job to care about the rank and file.

Heck, maybe what would help would be to hire a "National Youth and Amateur Coach," so those without Olympic aspirations can still feel like they are getting the respect and attention they deserve? (Hey, I'm somewhat serious about that!)

GotSpots

Apr. 9, 2008, 09:00 PM

I think this is a valid question. Goodness knows there's frothing that goes on whenever his name is mentioned, but I think it's the better part of decency to at least know what's supporting the outrage. There may be very good reasons for not liking the man, or just as good reasons for approving of him, but why not at least state them pro/con instead of taking the cheap shot?

Snapdragon

Apr. 9, 2008, 09:07 PM

Maybe the culture of eventing is different elsewhere, so CMP really just doesn't "get" how sensitive folks can be (and/or refuses to be bothered by it--after all, our very own Vice President has the same attitude...So?) Fact is, a lot of "winners" aren't the nicest of people. Come on, folks. We all know that, right? And CMPs attitude toward "smurfs" is probably not much different than some basketball coach's attitude toward the women's team or the intermural team or the junior varsity. It's not their job to care about the rank and file.

I agree with most of what you write. But, here's the rub (and your post made me think of it). Most horsepeople, whether they are pro or amateur, live and breathe their horses. It really isn't just something you do just when you feel like it (I know you know this); it's every single bloody day, with every single bloody horse (especially if you're eventing). And I think that's where I (especially after the trials and tribulations of the past few years) as an amateur have problems with a dismissive attitude. The rank-and-file is the same as the pros as far as attention to your horses and the amount of time and money (and blood, sweat, and tears) you put into them. It's just harder for the working stiff, because we have to work a full-time job AND take care of our horses AND ride them to the best of our ability. That's the difference between other sports and horse sports.

Ok, rant over.

arnika

Apr. 9, 2008, 09:09 PM

Excellent post, Snapdragon. :cool:

As a "Smurf" and proud of it, I salute you!

deltawave

Apr. 9, 2008, 09:11 PM

And CMPs attitude toward "smurfs" is probably not much different than some basketball coach's attitude toward the women's team or the intermural team or the junior varsity. It's not their job to care about the rank and file.

Which is a perfectly legitimate reason for not liking him. Which was what the OP was asking.

pwynnnorman

Apr. 9, 2008, 09:12 PM

purplnurpl

Apr. 9, 2008, 09:21 PM

When did I miss the name calling?

Did he really call us Smurfs? He actually used the term Smurf?
oh my.

arnika

Apr. 9, 2008, 09:21 PM

But that doesn't mean we have to like it or that we can't make the choice to not support him with our hard earned $$$.

If I'd had my way, we wouldn't have Cheney running our country. And yes, I know he really is the president. ;)

purplnurpl, he did indeed actually call us smurfs. In writing, in public. It's been a while but the opinion hasn't changed.

Gnep

Apr. 9, 2008, 09:23 PM

Mmmmmmmmmmm its still snowing and its going Reeds way, I wonder what Ol Dick has to do with me needing a new helmet and a new vest and Reed going to Greenwood and me not.
The fire is still burning, smoking like hell, towards the neighbors, wonder when they are going to call.
dick calls everybody smurf, even his Boss.

Ravencrest_Camp

Apr. 9, 2008, 09:30 PM

And CMPs attitude toward "smurfs" is probably not much different than some basketball coach's attitude toward the women's team or the intermural team or the junior varsity. It's not their job to care about the rank and file.

I would say that Mark Phillip's attitude is not that much different from many UL riders and coaches in this or any other equestrian sport.

ss3777

Apr. 9, 2008, 09:43 PM

Rosabeth Moss Kantor:
"Leaders are more powerful role models when they learn than when they teach"

See CMP, you could be even more powerful!!!

2ndyrgal

Apr. 9, 2008, 09:54 PM

Can't we impeach CMP and stage a coup led by Denny and Jimmy? I could take it it either of them called me a smurf. I think that it's just tough to be dismissed by someone with a british accent. And a big head. You'd think someone at his level would T H I N K before they opened their mouth and let stuff just spurt out.

ss3777

Apr. 9, 2008, 10:01 PM

"It's not their job to care about the rank and file"

Just think about how successful leaders are that do care.

Snapdragon

Apr. 9, 2008, 10:01 PM

I understand what you mean, Snap, but if you replace rank-and-file with "the middle classes" and pro with "the upper classes," well, you'd have Dick Cheney, wouldn't you? Some people are made to be arrogant. Indeed, sometimes, their arrogance is a strength--heck, even their sheer lack of popularity is probably considered a strength to some.

I know it's tough to know that one way or another, your hard-earned $$$ are supporting someone who doesn't give a fig about you, the world you live in, the struggles and hopes you have.

But we've elected a ton of them over the years.

Awww, Pwynn, why did ya have to drag Cheney into it? The true devil incarnate! You ruined all my fun!!! I don't consider MP to be on the same level of evil as Cheney!!!!

Snapdragon

Apr. 9, 2008, 10:03 PM

Oh, Reed and Gnep, no snow here!!!! Some clouds but a rather warm day.

flea

Apr. 9, 2008, 10:06 PM

.Gnep...I don't know what Ol Dick has to do with any of this. I do know people against the present administration will fit it into any discussion. This includes one of my dear old friends who couldn't even write a Christmas news letter without referencing it. Sigh, it gets old.

pwynnnorman

Apr. 9, 2008, 10:12 PM

Just think about how successful leaders are that do care.

But IS he a leader, ss3777 (and I sure do hope those aren't the last four digits of your social security number! :D)?

I couldn't get the formatting to erase, so I'll just summarize. I found one organization which distinguished a leader from a manager. Reading their criteria (e.g. when you are managed, you do what you are told--you follow a leader willingly; a manager is an overseer--a leader is a decisionmaker; a manager has a position of authority bestowed on them by others--a leader has a position of respect earned through their own actions; a leader can be a manager, but a manager is not necessarily a leader), CMP is more a manager than a leader.

And, flea, just as you seem to be bothered by people who are so crude as to bring politics into discussions, I am bothered when people value the ease of simplicity over the intellectual heavylifting required by relevance. To each his own.

subk

Apr. 9, 2008, 10:16 PM

I'm not going to talk about CMP. I've got a beer out and quite frankly I'm more worried about Gnep. I mean after reading that first post of his I think he's got some memory and confusion issues. He talked about wooping his head in a helmet that had already been wooped before AND he's much more interesting to me than that other guy...wooped up or not.

Instead let's think about a man named Jack. Probably the last man to hold a long time position as Team coach. He's in the Eventing Hall of Fame. Go read about him here: http://useventing.com/hof/index.php?id=7

Ya'll read it yet?

Here's my favorite part: "Jack was not only a brilliant coach of international teams but took the time to study the grass roots riders, attending not only the top level competitions but those at the lower levels as well. He conducted, and still conducts, clinics that are open to the public and he has also helped with U.S. Pony Club rallies."

See he understood that in his job as Team coach he was placed in position to be the guiding force for the direction of eventing in the U.S.--even though the "job description" was only about winning medals--and he understood what made the sport great and nurtured it.

Gnep, doesn't the wind always blow toward Reed? I mean is that really news?

HECS04

Apr. 9, 2008, 10:18 PM

I'm not going to talk about CMP. I've got a beer out and quite frankly I'm more worried about Gnep. I mean after reading that first thread of his I think he's got some memory and confusion issues. He talked about wooping his head in a helmet that had already been wooped before AND he's much more interesting to me than that other guy...wooped up or not.

Instead let's think about a man named Jack. Probably the last man to hold a long time position as Team coach. He's in the Eventing Hall of Fame. Go read about him here: http://useventing.com/hof/index.php?id=7

Ya'll read it yet?

Here's my favorite part: "Jack was not only a brilliant coach of international teams but took the time to study the grass roots riders, attending not only the top level competitions but those at the lower levels as well. He conducted, and still conducts, clinics that are open to the public and he has also helped with U.S. Pony Club rallies."

See he understood that in his job as Team coach he was placed in position to be the guiding force for the direction of eventing in the U.S.--even though the "job description" was only about winning medals--and he understood what made the sport great and nurtured it.

Gnep, doesn't the wind always blow toward Reed? I mean is that really news?

:yes: Great input

rideforthelaurels16

Apr. 9, 2008, 10:21 PM

:lol: Thanks guys, you definitely answered my question AND made my night at the same time ;) Some google searches and dilligent reading of the eventing forum gave me a pretty good idea of his coaching abilities (the thread about his salary was enlightening :lol:), the reason I asked was because it seemed like there were qualms with him as a person. Guess I was right! :eek: I had no idea the smurf thing came from him! And the prize money thing...well then. Guess I can consider myself out of the dark! Hah!

flea

Apr. 9, 2008, 10:39 PM

You are right pwynnnorman, to each his own. We may not agree on politics but I have the utmost respect for you, your horsemanship, and knowledge as evidenced by threads I have read here. I do not think I value simplicity but will do some intellectual heavylifting and ponder it. But first a glass of wine because that kind of thing hurts my head:) And I sure don't mean to take the thread off subject, just tired and cranky I guess.

Snapdragon

Apr. 9, 2008, 10:53 PM

Excellent post, Snapdragon. :cool:

As a "Smurf" and proud of it, I salute you!

Thanks Arnika! Sometimes a good rant does a heart good!

Smurf out.:)

JER

Apr. 9, 2008, 11:08 PM

Um, guys, you're forgetting something. According to the Professional Horsemens' [sic] Council (a group that is -- please, God -- better at horsemanship than at spelling and grammar):
the Red Hills course designer, Mark Phillips, who originally brought European standards and quality to American eventing in the early 1990s, is one of the top course designers in the world.

Before CMP, American riders/horses/courses were the Velveeta of the eventing world. And now they're like fancy artisanal sheep's milk cheese. Or something like that.

NeverTime

Apr. 9, 2008, 11:26 PM

tuppysmom

Apr. 9, 2008, 11:32 PM

And... I watched that "Jack guy" cut a pretty fancy rug at Rebecca Farm a couple of years back. He was dancing away the night with everyone, and giving French language lessons.

TexasTB

Apr. 9, 2008, 11:35 PM

Someone brought up Jack LeGoff, which is an interesting historical reference because, frankly, for all he did for the US team, many people had a poor personal opinion of him, too, and the way he could treat people, at least toward the end of his career.
I'm no particular CMP fan either (I think Lex stated things fairly succinctly! though could've made a fairly similar list for LeGoff!). Both men have proven its a fairly thankless job at the top.

The difference is, that wile some may have had a poor personal opinion of him, his opinion of the sport was very much in line with the majority of eventers. I don't have a problem with abrasiveness, as long as what's coming out of that person's mouth is something that I agree with. CMP is neither personally endearing, nor do his opinions reflect the essence of the American sport, and that is why he needs to go.

RAyers

Apr. 9, 2008, 11:43 PM

I understand what you mean, Snap, but if you replace rank-and-file with "the middle classes" and pro with "the upper classes," well, you'd have Dick Cheney, wouldn't you? Some people are made to be arrogant. Indeed, sometimes, their arrogance is a strength--heck, even their sheer lack of popularity is probably considered a strength to some.

I know it's tough to know that one way or another, your hard-earned $$$ are supporting someone who doesn't give a fig about you, the world you live in, the struggles and hopes you have.

But we've elected a ton of them over the years.

OK, comparing MMP to a guy who shot a buddy standing next to him is poetic justice. I guess MMP is a good guy, just don't stand within range if he has a gun, or speaks (don't want any of that ignorance rubbing off).

The snow has started and my horse is tucked in tightly. The truck tires are rotated and I am filling out the Greenwood entries. Where is that EXO body protector you are ordering me, Gnep? I already replaced my helmet after the digger at Rebecca last year.

Reed

Kementari

Apr. 10, 2008, 12:21 AM

Before CMP, American riders/horses/courses were the Velveeta of the eventing world. And now they're like fancy artisanal sheep's milk cheese. Or something like that.

And it all comes back to cheese.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

TB or not TB?

Apr. 10, 2008, 12:45 AM

[edit]
4. He is arrogant.

5. He is a complete Tool for the people behind the USEF.

6. Small forest animals and children are scared of him.

I'm sure there are other reasons but that's what immediately came to mind.

Ah Lex, that's why we love you.

blackwly

Apr. 10, 2008, 01:10 AM

Ok, I have searched and searched and I can't find the CMP smurf quote. Can't someone out there remember it and share it with us again???

ss3777

Apr. 10, 2008, 06:30 AM

But IS he a leader, ss3777 (and I sure do hope those aren't the last four digits of your social security number! :D)?
.

I think that is the crux of it. If he was just managing a couple of folks at a few events, he would not attract attention. However as a Chef d'Equipe of the US team, course designer of qualifying events and a columnist he made a decision to take on a very influential role in our sport. I am not sure his type of influence is well received. It is unfortunate because when you read his resume it is hard not to be very impressed and want to put him up on a pedestal for all of his contributions. If you do a ton for the sport, does that allow you carte blanche?

PS ss3777 is for my son (he was born 7/17, at 7:15 weighing 7.5 lbs) My lucky number 7 and my initials are SS :)

LisaB

Apr. 10, 2008, 07:07 AM

Okay, history and resume aside. Here's the problem: He doesn't listen and he doesn't learn.
He's dangerous in that regard. He only surrounds himself with people who are 'yes' people.
In corporations, we have had failing companies who have CEO's like this. And what happens in the beginning? The really strong middle and lower class (worker bees) leave because they are not being heard and their input is not wanted. They go on to other jobs where they are appreciated. Once they leave, you're left with worker bees who can't think. The company hires more and more of them. And they wonder why they can't grow and profit. CEO and exec. team scratch their heads. Company is looking good for buyout and sure enough, they either get a hostile takeover or fold.
Hope this helps.

Galileo1998

Apr. 10, 2008, 07:24 AM

Besides anything else, I'm pretty sure he didn't call anyone smurfs. I think that is what someone else decided he might have meant and it's just carried on as if it were CMP words.

LisaB

Apr. 10, 2008, 07:54 AM

Galileo, no, he has called us smurfs in meetings. Literally, we are little blue people running around.

Fence2Fence

Apr. 10, 2008, 08:16 AM

Look at who went to the Pan Am games....to me, that really explains about everything.

pattnic

Apr. 10, 2008, 08:35 AM

Before CMP, American riders/horses/courses were the Velveeta of the eventing world. And now they're like fancy artisanal sheep's milk cheese. Or something like that.

I really like Velveeta... :uhoh:

scubed

Apr. 10, 2008, 08:49 AM

In other sports, coaches do (sometimes) get in trouble for "bad behavior" including philandering, excess drinking, calling their players bad names in public, insulting officials, insulting venues, etc. Somehow, in our community, that is all shrugged off as, "that is just CMP" IMHO, we, as members of a community, should not take the stance that producing wins (medals) excuses unacceptable behavior and that should hold whether you are an coach, selector, owner, rider, spectator, mother, father, spouse of a team hopeful or whomever.

Galileo1998

Apr. 10, 2008, 08:58 AM

Galileo, no, he has called us smurfs in meetings. Literally, we are little blue people running around.

Oh, ok, I didn't realize that. Thanks for letting me know :)

pwynnnorman

Apr. 10, 2008, 08:59 AM

And... I watched that "Jack guy" cut a pretty fancy rug at Rebecca Farm a couple of years back. He was dancing away the night with everyone, and giving French language lessons.

Dancing on the floor, right? Well, I'll call you that and up you one, tuppy: In Mark Todd's book, he talks about Mark Phillips dancing on top of a table (loaded, of course--this was way back when, before those boys grew up).

In other sports, coaches do (sometimes) get in trouble for "bad behavior" including philandering, excess drinking, calling their players bad names in public, insulting officials, insulting venues, etc. Somehow, in our community, that is all shrugged off as, "that is just CMP"

But when did he do such things, scubed? Calling a group "smurfs" is hardly calling players bad names, is it? BTW, the word "disdain" comes to mind when I think of CMPs regard for smurfs. But then I think, well, he's the High Performance Coach, not the smurfs coach, and so if the smurfs try to encroach on his territory (including--and most importantly--how it is funded and otherwise monied, like the AEC thing), it seems quite logical (if not particularly attractive) that he'd not only exhibit that disdain, but also be frustrated.

I think it's like those who support the trickle-down theory of economics. They honestly believe that if the top of the heap flourishes, then the benefits of that will trickle down to the bottom. And its frustrating to them when the bottom just can't be patient enough to let it happen. (That's not my belief, BTW. I believe [in economics, not eventing] there'd be no top if there wasn't a bottom and so that's why the bottom exists and the trickle will never--and is never intended to--reach them.)

Fence2Fence

Apr. 10, 2008, 09:26 AM

Calling a group "smurfs" is hardly calling players bad names, is it? BTW, the word "disdain" comes to mind when I think of CMPs regard for smurfs. But then I think, well, he's the High Performance Coach, not the smurfs coach, and so if the smurfs try to encroach on his territory (including--and most importantly--how it is funded and otherwise monied, like the AEC thing), it seems quite logical (if not particularly attractive) that he'd not only exhibit that disdain, but also be frustrated.

Yes, Pwynn, being called a "smurf" is bloody insulting. And the lower level riders are as much as a player as the upper leve riders. Stop and think about it for a minute.

What you've just outlined is probably the key reason why people hate him so much.

scubed

Apr. 10, 2008, 09:33 AM

Forget the smurf comment. I've personally heard him call team riders names when coaching at a show. I've also heard 2nd hand about behavior that I won't repeat as it is heresay, but if true consider totally inappropriate. Also, not toward a rider, but I thought his comments about VAHT very inappropriate.

pwynnnorman

Apr. 10, 2008, 09:36 AM

Well, I sure don't hear everything, not by any means (which is probably more typical than not). What did he say at VAHT?

ivy62

Apr. 10, 2008, 09:46 AM

I normally do not post here but am interested in this....let's get away from eventing for a minute and go to the "ELITE" sports, does anyone remember Nadia Commenci? Well, her coach Bella Karole (sp) when he came to the US was calling 12 -14 year old girls little shits! Was it acceptable no but he put forth a winning team and yes a lot of them got hurt but no one stopped him either..It seems for some strange reason that these people we put on top have the right to abuse us! That is only because we let them. It happens in many sports but most do not die from it nor injure a horse but there are plenty of athletes out there that are injured some very seriously because of the type of trainers we have....
JMHO
I will go back to lurking now.....

LisaB

Apr. 10, 2008, 09:49 AM

He said that the VA HT and it's * is a 'backyard event'. He also has a disdain for smaller events. Or events that have low levels only. He completely insulted Brian and Penny during one phone conference. I wasn't there but heard from very reliable resources.
Now, Wynn, I'm glad you're posting because you are now on the 'inside circle' so to speak. You have Karen who doesn't have to prove anything to anyone and she can basically do what she wants because she's earned it. That said, you are kinda defending CMP which leads me to believe that what he states outside is not what he actually does with the inside circle.
Which is why, yes, he helps us win medals. Great! Thank you! BUT he needs to only be working in that realm then. His commentaries and his contributions to the USEA need to be at a discreet minimum.

LisaB

Apr. 10, 2008, 09:51 AM

Ivy, he was stopped. He stopped being the team coach when the entire gymnastics world pitched a fit. And he got the boot. He still does coach and he's toned down A LOT. But no, they didn't take it.

Moderator 1

Apr. 10, 2008, 09:53 AM

We edited a few of the comments in the "top 6" list to remove the personal insults/comments. Tune in to Letterman for the others... ;)

You're of course welcome to discuss your perception of how public figures'/leaders' personalities and attitudes affect their roles in the horse world, but please continue to keep the discussion productive and don't let it progress into a mud-slinging thread.

Thanks,
Mod 1

mbarrett

Apr. 10, 2008, 09:55 AM

Wouldn't you think a national coach, of any sport, would want to cultivate and encourage the lower levels? Look at all the youth sports (soccer, baseball, softball, etc.) that feed into high school sports, college sports, minor league and finally the pros.

You'd think that CMP would want to start identifying talent in the beginning at the lowest levels of the sport. Call me crazy, but I would hazard a bet that the Super Bowl, World Series, etc. winning coach this year has talent scouts at the high school and college level. They are looking for talent.

pwynnnorman

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:01 AM

Well, LisaB, I honestly don't feel in the least "inner circle," unless you call talking a lot to a lot of riders' mothers "inner." I think I can count on one hand the number of times--no words--CMP has said to me.

But you are right: I am defending him a bit. But it's not at all for the reason you think. Far from it.

It's because this issue plagued me throughout my professional and academic careers. The fact is that, when I get going (in the real world, not here--well, sometimes here, too) I'm a lot like CMP. And I can't help it. It's just the way I am, which is very goal oriented and not at all very social among folks I don't have a long-established relationship with. I can force myself to be more social, but...

Well, here's an example: Just this past Tuesday, I brought papers up to Karen. She greeted me, saying something like "Hi, how's it goin'?" To which I, in my usual blind preoccupation with getting the job done, responded monosyllabically, "Fine." And then proceeded to turn my back and sort through papers. She commented on my unemotional curtness (I can't even remember what she said, though), which I only belatedly remembered to smile at, but couldn't think of a darn thing to say in response.

In academia, that kind of thing resulted in me being the favorite of the motivated students, who were happy with me being as I was because I was fair and challenging and really made sure they learned what was valuable to their careers. And I was downright hated by the so-so students, who wanted to me hold their hands and say encouraging things to them--which don't even occur to me to utter unless I really, really think about it. (That's why I much prefer teaching online like I do now--it gives me plenty of time to write encouragingly and personably, even though that isn't really my personality.)

So, no, I don't think CMP is such an awful person. He just is the way he is.

LisaB

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:06 AM

Well, Wynn, but here's the difference. You realize your faults. So do I, so do most people. CMP doesn't and won't. Huge problem. You of all people should know how much a problem it is since being in education. Hey, I'm sitting in a corner, I'm a one-man band for a job. Why? Because I can't stand being around people. But I know that and I know my limits (learning a new one everyday!). That's the difference. And he's infiltrated his beliefs in many aspects of the USEA and gone beyond what he should be doing. We need to scale him back to where he belongs.
In the UK, they call him Foggy. Very fitting. And they are HAPPY to be rid of him!

arnika

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:07 AM

Even though his actual job as Chef de Equip involves only the upper levels, this should not cause him to despise the lower levels. If he despises the lower level riders and/or the events targeted to them, he should keep his mouth shut. Sorry to be blunt but there it is.

Antagonizing the core of the sport is an incredibly foolish thing to do. I can understand why he has the tremendous class warfare role down to a science since he comes from the land of upper class priviledge but I believe it is stupid of USEF/Usea to play into his snobbery.

JER

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:07 AM

In defense of LexInVA, I wouldn't call it mudslinging when a poster mentions something that was proven in a court case via DNA testing.

As unsavory as certain facts may be, facts do carry weight as a question of character. A glaring lack of accountability and responsibility in one area of one's life may translate to the same shortcomings in other aspects.

eqsiu

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:10 AM

He just is the way he is.

Mark Phillips reminds me of one of the attorneys in my office. He's very genial with the other attorneys and they all think he great fun. However, he is completely unhelpful and arrogant when dealing with us, the support staff. I will never forget the first time he walked into my office and handed me a file. He had signed a dismissal, and the other attorney's I've had to work with would have sent the motion downstairs themselves. No, he hands it to me without a word. The secretaries can't stand him, I have an unreasonable dislike for him, but his "peers" so to speak think he's great. Someday I'm going to have to counter one of his stories with "when I was at Cornell..." and see what he does with that (of course, I am just as bad when it comes to being smart, so I'm not sure I can complain too much).

Hony

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:11 AM

So, no, I don't think CMP is such an awful person. He just is the way he is.

That's exactly what I was thinking. My fiance's father was for many years the same and I thought he was a rude, arrogant, prick. Later I realized he was just socially inept and we get along great now.

Jealoushe

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:12 AM

For example, a lot of people up here hate Eric Lamaze who just won the Canadian Equestrian of the Year award because of the time(s) he was caught doing drugs at the Olympics. These people are totally losing their minds over this because they see him as a poor role model. However, he paid the penalty for his infraction and has this year accomplished more winning than any other rider in the nation. It is not his job to be a role model, it is his job to be a good rider and he is.

.

No one hates Eric Lamaze anymore, he made mistakes, he changed and he has been forgiven. He admits that. Anyone who still hates him is obviously jealous of his talent and striking good looks! :D

annikak

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:14 AM

I've been called lot's worse then a smurf- and frankly, I just don't care. It does not bother me in the least.

And, I think that there is a lot of validity in much of what is being said here. He is paid to get medals. Okay, so is every coach out there. Are they all nice? No, not so much. Do they talent scout? Sure- but they look at those that are playing at the level...not the dad that gets out there and plays soccer on a 'park' team. I bet that does not bother them in the least.

I think the way he says things shoots him in the foot a lot- he must not be nearly as bad as we think- he has been there too long. If he was that bad, then I would think he would be gone. And, yes, he should have someone edit his comments- might make things a bit better for him. Much like Mike Ditka did not care, I bet he does not care, either. I think that is a flaw in human-ness that many share.That being said, I would not want to have dinner with him, nor take a golf cart ride with him. But, guys, that is VERY personal!! :cool:

I have seen him teach a clinic at Willow Ridge in MI, and he was very nice to the "smurfs" there- and actually explained things to the auditors. I do feel - and its just my feeling, which matters not one bit- that we do seem to have a bit of a high school mentality going on with him. He may be (and I just don't really know, as I don't think it's trickling down to my prelim level) that he is faltering on course design. Good to look at and see. We have ways to do that.

As far as Karen goes, I would think having met her a few times, that she will speak her mind and that getting on the team would not detour her in doing so. I think he picks his teams based on who will get the medals...not who he likes. IMHO. For what it's worth.

Better to fix what appears broken rather then continue to complain about the color of the trees, I think. CMP matters not a bit to me on a day to day basis, much as I mean nothing to him. That's okay! (honestly!!:D) Signed, MARE Jumper

CookiePony

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:16 AM

But you are right: I am defending him a bit. But it's not at all for the reason you think. Far from it.

It's because this issue plagued me throughout my professional and academic careers. The fact is that, when I get going (in the real world, not here--well, sometimes here, too) I'm a lot like CMP. And I can't help it. It's just the way I am, which is very goal oriented and not at all very social among folks I don't have a long-established relationship with. I can force myself to be more social, but...

I do not know CMP personally, but I know you IRL and on this BB... and your demeanor/modus operandi is not what CMP's is. First of all, you are not disdainful of those who do not share your goals/ help you meet your goals. Second, you are more social than you are giving yourself credit for. Third, you seem to value ethical behavior (now I am admittedly relying on hearsay re CMP's lack of ethical behavior). Fourth, you are open to ideas from all sources. Shall I go on?

grayarabpony

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:18 AM

Dean Smith is a winner to top all winners, and he's a nice guy. It's because he has CLASS.

CMP did really seem to bring out the potential in the O'Connors and some others, but I don't like the way he just rolled over when it came to changing the format in eventing. I suppose he was for it because he thought it would benefit some people on the team but I don't think the change in format has been good for the overall course of the sport. As far as calling those at the lower levels smurfs, that's just stupid. Everyone at the upper levels started at the lower levels, and no horse on earth starts out at advanced.

lcw579

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:18 AM

I don't have a dog in this fight but just thought it was interesting to note that over in hunter/jumper land there is a thread going on about funny and mean things that trainers have said. There have been a number of postings about GM making people roll on the ground (how you do that I don't know) and throwing dirt in a girl's mouth at a clinic. These people paid to be treated like this and most people over there found this behavior endearing - me, not so much.
I just find it interesting that one arrogant man is idolized and one is vilified. Carry on.

mcorbett

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:22 AM

Ok, I tried to find it on my own but to no avail. Can someone tell me the direct quote he made about lower level eventers being smurfs? I want to see it's context!

Jazzy Lady

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:23 AM

annikak

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:33 AM

LisaB

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:36 AM

mcorbett, he verbally states it in meetings. He doesn't put that in writing on official stuff.
Okay, so we've all come across people like this at work. And some of you forgive ... constantly ... and clean up the messes. That's work. Nobody is dying and nobody's dreams are getting squashed by these people. BUT that's work. We are supposed to not be that emotional at work. This is our passion and when people are mean to us, we don't have to take it. And if our sport is going in a direction that we don't like (en masse), we're going to speak up. If someone big shot is condescending, we're going to call them on it.
No forgiving if the insults are directed at me and if the changing of the sport is not going correctly.

Jazzy Lady

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:36 AM

Thanks Annikak,

I just wanted to add to, if lower level riders are made to feel like they don't matter and it is only the higher levels that actually are part of the sport of eventing, are we really suprised when people are moving up out of the lower levels faster than they should?? Maybe more encouragement for the lower level riders would help.

LisaB

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:40 AM

No, Jazzy moving up faster than they should to gain acceptance of CMP is not the reason.
We are naturally very driven, goal-oriented people. That's all. And our stupidity overcomes common sense.
The ULR's are to the extreme of this mentality. And they are risk takers. That's how they got where they are. So, the YR's want to emulate that. They think it's cool to push a horse if they want to emulate that particular rider that consistently moves horses up too fast.

Sandy M

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:42 AM

Well, ya know.... he was married to a Princess for quite a while.... and he was STILL just a CAPTAIN when it was over. Perhaps the Royal Family knew something......I mean, you'd think there be SOME promotion when one marries well....

Jazzy Lady

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:51 AM

LisaB - I'm not being specific to CMP... just eventing in general and many people's opinions. :)

Hony

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:54 AM

The difference in professionals in the riding industry, at least in eventing and professionals in other sports avenues is it IS the lower levels that make it possible for the pros to do their thing.

People entering in basketball tournaments in high school or local groups don't support the MBA. The 200 BN-P entries at any given event are what makes running I-*** possible. Some of these riders ARE the future of the support and need to feel like they belong, not ostrisized for not yet competing at a higher level.

I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate but I feel that while currently the lower levels help to make things possible for the upper levels we need to stop thinking that they NEED us to do what they do.
A couple of things come to mind. Big Name Rider A has students who pay many of their bills so that they can compete at the upper levels, however, if all BNR A's riders quit do we think that BNR A would quit? I know if I were in that position I would drive a bus to pay the bills rather than quit doing what I love to do. I suspect that without students a lot of BNRs would end up as amateurs and our sport would change but it would still exist.

If it is courses that we are talking about LLRs making possible then we are dreaming too. Obviously all those entries generate a lot of cash for jump building but again, I am certain that if there were no novice or training levels the money would come from somewhere else. Perhaps courses would be less elaborate and there wouldn't be as many but I have no doubt that they would exist.

I just think that the attitude, "How can he talk to us like that. We make his job possible" isn't helping anything, nor is lynching CMP or calling him the Anti-Christ.

CheeseWithYourWhine?

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:55 AM

Before CMP, American riders/horses/courses were the Velveeta of the eventing world. And now they're like fancy artisanal sheep's milk cheese. Or something like that.

I don't mean to single out one poster, because there are heaps of comments in the "CMP is the antichrist" theme that slip in phrases like "American eventing", "send him back home" and "nobody in the UK wanted him"

I wonder how much the resentment is fueled by the fact that he is a foreigner, and importing a foreigner to head things creates the perception (or demonstrates the reality if you prefer) that America was (or maybe is) a 2nd rate eventing nation.

Rolex is perhaps the 2nd hardest course in the world, but low level English courses are generally much harder that low level American courses.

The last period when we were winning on the world stage we had an arrogant foreign coach too, but Jack was French and we seem to let them off more lightly as though arrogance was an unavoidable genetic trait carried in Gallic blood.

fooler

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:55 AM

The difference is, that wile some may have had a poor personal opinion of him, his opinion of the sport was very much in line with the majority of eventers. I don't have a problem with abrasiveness, as long as what's coming out of that person's mouth is something that I agree with. CMP is neither personally endearing, nor do his opinions reflect the essence of the American sport, and that is why he needs to go.

AHH Grasshopper. . . Jack LeGoff was one of the 1st 'larger-than-life' event people to state the Roads & Tracks + steeplechase should be done away with. This was after the 1978 Worlds in KY.
In fact the KY 3-Day event ran, over the course of 2-3 years, different formats (with R&T - no chase, without R&T- with chase, etc) and returned to full fledge long format.
So far - none of our Team coaches have been without some controversy. Though CMP seems to 'touch' a nerve in most all of us.
Also I never liked the smurfs that much so being called one was an additional insult. . .

Janet

Apr. 10, 2008, 11:10 AM

JER

Apr. 10, 2008, 11:23 AM

I don't mean to single out one poster, because there are heaps of comments in the "CMP is the antichrist" theme that slip in phrases like "American eventing", "send him back home" and "nobody in the UK wanted him"

I wonder how much the resentment is fueled by the fact that he is a foreigner, and importing a foreigner to head things creates the perception (or demonstrates the reality if you prefer) that America was (or maybe is) a 2nd rate eventing nation.

Rolex is perhaps the 2nd hardest course in the world, but low level English courses are generally much harder that low level American courses.

The last period when we were winning on the world stage we had an arrogant foreign coach too, but Jack was French and we seem to let them off more lightly as though arrogance was an unavoidable genetic trait carried in Gallic blood.

Well, Cheese, since you singled me out like a Kraft Single...

My comment -- which you quoted -- was meant to say how ludicrous the Professional Horsemens' Council statement was. It was basically "Without CMP, we'd be nothing." I personally thought the way the statement was worded was a slight to the legacy of Jack LeGoff and Neil Ayer, two men to whom American eventing will always owe much gratitude. Either the PHC forgot their history or they were kissing someone's behind. I'm not sure which is worse.

As for the question of importing foreigners, I'm an import myself. :D

Meredith Clark

Apr. 10, 2008, 11:37 AM

I just wanted to add to, if lower level riders are made to feel like they don't matter and it is only the higher levels that actually are part of the sport of eventing, are we really suprised when people are moving up out of the lower levels faster than they should?? Maybe more encouragement for the lower level riders would help.

No, I agree... I hate telling people that I "only" ride at BN level, even though I have every right to be there and thats where I SHOULD be condisering my horses's and my own skill level at this point in time. It has nothing to do with CMP breathing down my neck its just the eventing society as a whole not respecting LLeventing and I think that DOES come from the upper people.

I had a job interview at a horse related job and I told the woman I evented, and she asked "what level?" and I said "well my horse just came off the track so we'll just be doing some lower level stuff to start" and she said "oh.. so just training or something?" ??!?

I've NEVER done training... i felt like such a loser (smurf) :(

Jealoushe

Apr. 10, 2008, 11:41 AM

Rolex is perhaps the 2nd hardest course in the world,

I cant say I agree with that at all

but low level English courses are generally much harder that low level American courses.

I definitly agree with this though..

RAyers

Apr. 10, 2008, 12:15 PM

I
Rolex is perhaps the 2nd hardest course in the world, but low level English courses are generally much harder that low level American courses.

Given in your previous rant, you said low level riders have no right to judge upper level courses and you, yourself, admit to being a low level rider, I say you have no right to make such a statement. You have no idea what is a hard upper level course.

Reed

ivy62

Apr. 10, 2008, 12:21 PM

With reference to Rolex being a difficult course. Having never been to Badminton or Burghley "I" cannot say but I was with some eventers from England at Rolex last year and their comment was it appeared more technical. Not sure how that stacks up but that was what I was told....I am hoping to go to Badminton next year and see it in person....will let you know then.....

wlrottge

Apr. 10, 2008, 12:24 PM

Heck, maybe what would help would be to hire a "National Youth and Amateur Coach," so those without Olympic aspirations can still feel like they are getting the respect and attention they deserve? (Hey, I'm somewhat serious about that!)

I think something not far from that would be a good idea. Let CMP manage the UL's and have someone for "us". Not as a coach but as someone to help guide the direction and hear the issues of the LLR's.

CheeseWithYourWhine?

Apr. 10, 2008, 12:26 PM

Given in your previous rant, you said low level riders have no right to judge upper level courses and you, yourself, admit to being a low level rider, I say you have no right to make such a statement. You have no idea what is a hard upper level course.

Reed

I did not say "no right". If you want to summarize a page into 10 words or less, "no right to expect others to automatically take your opinion seriously" might be closer to what I said. So feel free to ignore my opinion on this side issue, as presumably you feel free to ignore my other opinions.

I note you ignored my main point too. Do you think xenophobia or nationalism plays any part in the CMP hysteria?

On the side note, how would you rank the permanent **** courses? I have not ridden any of them, and have not walked all of them in the same decade, so I was not claiming to put forward an authoritative comparison.

JER

Apr. 10, 2008, 12:33 PM

I note you ignored my main point too. Do you think xenophobia or nationalism plays any part in the CMP hysteria?

No. What makes you think it does?

If you look at the other threads on here, you'll see that many non-American riders/coaches/clinicians are well-liked and respected. (Lucinda Green, Ian Stark, Eric Horgan, etc.)

JenJ

Apr. 10, 2008, 12:35 PM

I had a job interview at a horse related job and I told the woman I evented, and she asked "what level?" and I said "well my horse just came off the track so we'll just be doing some lower level stuff to start" and she said "oh.. so just training or something?" ??!?

I've NEVER done training... i felt like such a loser (smurf) :(

What ever happened to eventing at whatever level you are competent at, because it is just so much fun? The vast majority of LLRs consider BN and N and T sufficiently challenging and do not aspire to go any higher. I always believed the point of this all for most of us was to be competitive at a level one enjoys and is competent at. I see nothing wrong with someone saying s/he loves to event and will never go above Novice, because Training scares the he!! out of him or her.

arnika

Apr. 10, 2008, 01:21 PM

by CheeseWithYourWhine?
I note you ignored my main point too. Do you think xenophobia or nationalism plays any part in the CMP hysteria?

I'll bite since I commented on his importation.:D

No, I have no objection to Mark Phillips as an Englishman. I'd object to him no matter where he came from. I just understand his antipathy to the LLRs in view of his background.

Fence2Fence

Apr. 10, 2008, 01:23 PM

I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate but I feel that while currently the lower levels help to make things possible for the upper levels we need to stop thinking that they NEED us to do what they do.
A couple of things come to mind. Big Name Rider A has students who pay many of their bills so that they can compete at the upper levels, however, if all BNR A's riders quit do we think that BNR A would quit? I know if I were in that position I would drive a bus to pay the bills rather than quit doing what I love to do. I suspect that without students a lot of BNRs would end up as amateurs and our sport would change but it would still exist.

If it is courses that we are talking about LLRs making possible then we are dreaming too. Obviously all those entries generate a lot of cash for jump building but again, I am certain that if there were no novice or training levels the money would come from somewhere else. Perhaps courses would be less elaborate and there wouldn't be as many but I have no doubt that they would exist.

I just think that the attitude, "How can he talk to us like that. We make his job possible" isn't helping anything, nor is lynching CMP or calling him the Anti-Christ.

It only takes a basic understanding of economics to realize the above doesn't hold true.

It's been discussed quite a bit that the entry fees from the lower levels cover the upper level costs and the costs of running three day events--both here on COTH by people who organize horse trials and in the USEA newsletter. Take Champaigne Run Horse Trial here in KY in July--they used to run Intermediate along with N/T/P. I couldn't help but notice when I was looking at the Omnibus listing recently, they are running BN/N/T/P, but not Intermediate. BN is going to generate a lot more entries, a lot more cash to cover expenses, than the Intermediate level entries. I won't assume that other factors didn't play in the organizer's decision to drop Intermediate, but it's an accepted fact the lower level divisions generate the income that pays for the horse trial. And when you have a horse trial that runs A/I/P, it's the other horse trials they hold that have BN/N/T that support the upper level horse trial.

Lower level/ammie riders participate in clinics, are the largest number of competitors at horse trials, board at their barns/facilities, pay them mileage fees for shipping to shows, pay for lessons (and a BNT trainer in this area will cost you at least $80 an hour), pay them for course walks, pay them for warm ups, pay them for cross country schools, pay them to train horses for us, and buy horses from them.

After looking at all of that revenue from lower level riders, can people really think professionals don't "need" ammie riders? We are their revenue source and it's already been discussed to death that sponsors aren't jumping out of bushes begging riders to ride their Advanced level horses, run their 600 acre eventing facility, and go on shopping trips to England to buy a Welton baby.

If everyone stopped shopping at Wal-mart, do people really think it wouldn't go out of business?? Income would just be generate some other way? This is why boycott has been such an effective tool and used throughout the world to instigate change. When the revenue source dries up, things change.

So, no, we aren't dreaming when we say the upper levels need us. And no, I don't think we should sit back and shut up because we are ammies. The sport belongs to all of us. And this arrogant attitude from CMP and any other ULR it may have infected is disgusting.

As for the comment about whether this dislike of CMP comes from the fact that he is british. I wouldn't care if he came from Mars. While I haven't been an active competitor during this time, I've been an paying USEA active member for almost 15 years, and during this time I've zealously followed the Olympic hopefuls and dutifully read CMP's columns. I feel like he has done nothing to solidify this sport, improve it, or develop riders--to the point I'm sick of the Olympic crap and want very little to do with anything that's considered "upper level."

Yes, he's gotten some medals, but was the price of our sport worth it? There's some bad apples in the barrel and he's one of them.

RAyers

Apr. 10, 2008, 01:40 PM

I note you ignored my main point too. Do you think xenophobia or nationalism plays any part in the CMP hysteria?

Neither. He is an arrogant ass who has decided he does not need to answer to anyone, the USEF, FEI, USEA or other riders. Reading his comments to the FEI safety committee as well as his magazine columns, he feels no need to justify any decisions or be held accountable for his choices. Think of the Jack Nicholson character in "A Few Good Men."

You might say, "Well he gets results." Hmm... Check on the status of Le Samuri and Darren. His postion is fraught with conflicts of interest that he has domination over the ULs who seek to make the team. I suspect that results in bad decisions concerning the wellfare of the horse as well as the risk of the rider. There is plenty of "behind the curtain" discussion going on to justify my thoughts on this.

As noted here and in other threads, he may be a great rider and horseman but his continued dismissal of low level riders (who may actually own horses the upper level riders ride, or who may actually know more about equine medicine than he) has marginalized him to "Crazy Uncle" status in the US. Consder that this is a man who views riders the same way he views horses, they either survive or die. Building courses that result in injury harm to top horses and riders is not a way to build a top flight team. You tend to use up the best resources so nothing is left (refer to the Japanese Air Force in WWII).

Reed

flyingchange

Apr. 10, 2008, 01:48 PM

Well, Cheese, since you singled me out like a Kraft Single...

:lol::lol::lol:

CheeseWithYourWhine?

Apr. 10, 2008, 01:53 PM

No. What makes you think it does?

If you look at the other threads on here, you'll see that many non-American riders/coaches/clinicians are well-liked and respected. (Lucinda Green, Ian Stark, Eric Horgan, etc.)

This comment in another thread was probably the one that made me think it

For a non-US citizen to publish in an American magazine, insulting the majority of his American audience and clientele is one step too far over the line even for me, and I am a tolerant person

If it does not feel a little off you you, imagine it rephrased as "For a non-white person to publish in an white people's magazine, insulting the majority of his white audience and clientele is one step too far over the line even for me, and I am a tolerant person"

Equibrit

Apr. 10, 2008, 01:59 PM

Why pull punches?

He's just an arrogant prick!

shea'smom

Apr. 10, 2008, 02:01 PM

Reed,
I also heard from a well respected judge and another official that Phillips does not like horses, he likes what they can do for him.

subk

Apr. 10, 2008, 02:03 PM

Do you think xenophobia or nationalism plays any part in the CMP hysteria?
No. That he is not American insulates him to a large degree from the politics of it all. It was a bonus qualification when he was hired and may have something to do with why he still has the job. If there is resentment of his "Englishness" if would be because it has granted him an advantage and some would say an unfair immunity, and that it has nothing to do with nationalism.

pwynnnorman

Apr. 10, 2008, 02:42 PM

Say, who are other countries' coaches? And what kind of backgrounds do they have?

Canada - David O'Connor
UK - Is that Yogi guy their coach? Breisner or something?
Australia - Is it Roycroft?
Germany - Chris Bartle, right?
France - ???
Sweden - Do they have a national coach?
New Zealand - ???
Italy - ???
Ireland - ???
Mexico (tough job ;-) -- ??
Spain -- ??
Japan -- ??
Belgium -- ??
Poland -- ??

(Trying to think of other countries with entries in international competition these days...)

eqsiu

Apr. 10, 2008, 03:15 PM

Say, who are other countries' coaches? And what kind of backgrounds do they have?

(Trying to think of other countries with entries in international competition these days...)

I thought it was common practice to hire a foreigner as coach? Most countries seem to have them. Maybe so the coach is less biased towards specific riders (theoretically)?

lxt

Apr. 10, 2008, 03:21 PM

Australia's National Eventing Coach is Wayne Roycroft. The Chef is a separate person - it's Rob Hanna with David Green as alternate if I recall correctly. Wayne is obviously Australian.

Sandy M

Apr. 10, 2008, 03:55 PM

Australia's National Eventing Coach is Wayne Roycroft. The Chef is a separate person - it's Rob Hanna with David Green as alternate if I recall correctly. Wayne is obviously Australian.

ROFLOL. For years back in the 60s and 70s, it seemed like the entire show jumping and eventing team from Australia was populated by various Roycrofts! They just let Laurie Morgan in for a bit.....

Jealoushe

Apr. 10, 2008, 03:57 PM

I thought it was common practice to hire a foreigner as coach? Most countries seem to have them. Maybe so the coach is less biased towards specific riders (theoretically)?

I found this quote from eventing new zealands web site

In eventing, as in the world of football, it has become common practice to appoint non-national coaches. The British have enjoyed great success during the past few years under the tutelage of Sweden's Yogi Breisner; Ireland appointed another Swede, Lars Christenssen, earlier this year to try to improve their championship results, and the Germans have a British coach, international eventer and former Olympic dressage rider Christopher Bartle.

new zealands coach was Erik Duvander, not sure if it still is

pwynnnorman

Apr. 10, 2008, 04:01 PM

Well, y'know, if you stand CMP's competition record against some of the other countries' coaches, only DO'C and Chris Bartle can really keep pace, wouldn't you say? They've all been around, but not in the results.

deltawave

Apr. 10, 2008, 04:13 PM

The best competitors don't always make the best coaches, and vice versa.

RAyers

Apr. 10, 2008, 04:57 PM

HECS04

Apr. 10, 2008, 05:01 PM

Given in your previous rant, you said low level riders have no right to judge upper level courses and you, yourself, admit to being a low level rider, I say you have no right to make such a statement. You have no idea what is a hard upper level course.

Reed

Reed, I was thinking the SAME thing! You just said it nicer than I would have!

pwynnnorman

Apr. 10, 2008, 05:23 PM

True, but I bet Beethoven wasn't a great piano teacher.

Reed

But the jury's still out on that, isn't it, Reed? Several folks have chimed in here indicating that the man is actually a prett good teacher. And his results as a coach have hardly been shabby. I'm not saying I agreed with what he pushed during the Winter Training Sessions, but I RESPECT it.

And I really do think that that's probably the way a lot of ULRs feel, too: they may not agree, but they respect. I think, regardless of the man's bedside manners, he does deserve some respect. At least as much as his predecessors and contemporaries.

deltawave

Apr. 10, 2008, 07:31 PM

It's cool and lovely that many ULRs like and respect him. It's also probably true that there are some LLRs that like and respect him. What is sad and apparently not a big deal to anyone is that there are a WHOLE BUNCH of people who don't like him, don't respect him, and have been to some degree soured on the upper level "picture" of our sport partly or mostly due to his pernicious influence.

I'm not saying we should have someone who's 100% likeable by all and sundry, but jeez, is he really SO very wonderful that we couldn't possibly go looking for someone better, who will reach out to the lower level cash cow that keeps the 1% afloat?? Other countries change coaches every couple of years, don't they? This is a democracy, right? :lol:

As to being respected, well, Gold Medals are certainly VERY impressive, but there are so VERY MANY other ways of earning respect. GIVING respect to one's sport's supporters is one way that comes to mind.

wanderlust

Apr. 10, 2008, 08:10 PM

CMP did really seem to bring out the potential in the O'Connors and some others

For the record, before "the O'Connors", there was a woman named Karen Lende. And Karen Lende had a pretty spectacular international record starting in about, oh, 1979. So really, I'd not be giving CMP much credit in "bringing out the potential" where that one is concerned.

Ravencrest_Camp

Apr. 10, 2008, 08:32 PM

RAyers

Apr. 10, 2008, 08:58 PM

But the jury's still out on that, isn't it, Reed? Several folks have chimed in here indicating that the man is actually a prett good teacher. And his results as a coach have hardly been shabby. I'm not saying I agreed with what he pushed during the Winter Training Sessions, but I RESPECT it.

And I really do think that that's probably the way a lot of ULRs feel, too: they may not agree, but they respect. I think, regardless of the man's bedside manners, he does deserve some respect. At least as much as his predecessors and contemporaries.

Yes, I can respect the man for his riding accomplishments. I can respect him for how he understands course design. I do not have to like him as a representative of the sport, nor as a person who has the best interests of the horse and riders at heart.

pwynn, you know as well as I, perhaps even better given your background, that a few top students are hardly a ringing endorsement of a person's teaching ability. It is even worse when that teach continually belittles and dismisses the rest of the students as insignificant. At some point that teacher will no longer teach as students will refuse to take classes. A good educator encourages EVERYONE to want to learn and grow. Look at the Noble Laureates (such as Weimann or Cech) who still teach at the University of Colorado. As a matter of fact they gave up thier graduate work to focus solely on undergrads.

To me, Mr. Phillips has little justification for his attitude. He just ain't that good.

Reed

subk

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:06 PM

lstevenson

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:31 PM

If anybody deserves credit for "bringing out the potential" of BOTH O'Connors it would be Wofford. He'd get to claim Kim Vinoski/Severson too.

Yep. :yes:

Bensmom

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:50 PM

Yep. :yes:

Ah, but who was instrumental in developing those riders before or along with Wofford?

Jack LeGoff.

Not only was David one of the first, if not the first, resident rider for the USET under Jack (as a side note, the story of him asking Jack for that job in their book is pretty funny) but he and Karen both rode with Jack during their development as well as with Wofford.

And, does anyone else remember the Practical Horseman feature story done on Kim years ago? That came to mind when I read the discussion of Jack LeGoff paying attention to the lower levels -- if I remember correctly, he judged Kim at a dressage show or an event in Arizona, I think, and ended up talking her into riding some of his young horses. She moved East and the rest is eventing history.

I have a tremendous respect for these guys and what and who they have taught. My trainer worked for Jack at the Team in the late 70s/early 80s and has ridden for Jimmy Wofford -- I hear their philosophy in everything she teaches today.

Ok, highjack over. Back to the CMP discussion! :)

LAZ

Apr. 10, 2008, 11:11 PM

This comment in another thread was probably the one that made me think it

If it does not feel a little off you you, imagine it rephrased as "For a non-white person to publish in an white people's magazine, insulting the majority of his white audience and clientele is one step too far over the line even for me, and I am a tolerant person"

This quote was mine. And you are way off base with the racist take on my remark. I stand by that someone who is making their living in any foreign country owes their employer(s) their respect and support--especially in public and vocally or they should go get a job in their own country. I support and defend the right of any US citizen to live within our bill or rights and constitution, whether I agree or disagree vehemently with them. I might not like someone elses POV, but as a fellow citizen it is their right to have their own opinion.

edited to add: for some reason Cheese w/whine's entire quote didn't come through--it left out the bit that they orginally used of mine.

wanderlust

Apr. 10, 2008, 11:16 PM

If anybody deserves credit for "bringing out the potential" of BOTH O'Connors it would be Wofford. He'd get to claim Kim Vinoski/Severson too.

But subk, CMP was the team coach when Kim appeared on the scene. So it MUST have been him that was responsible for all of Kim's success. ;)

From what I've heard, many of the ULRs work with other coaches, and only CMP for team stuff when they have to. I've never met the man, and I've only seen him coach from a distance once or twice. However, while the US has had a couple of major one-off successes that win consistently over the years, my hunch is that they would have done so with or without his help. What I haven't seen in a very long time is a consistently strong TEAM.

I also haven't seen from the US riders in years, apart from KOC (and now Phillip Dutton), riders like Bruce or Mike or Jimmy who brought along horse after horse after horse that could be in serious contention for a major international win. Instead, we get a rider with a single superstar horse. Kim & Dan; Gina & Mckinleigh; Darren & Windfall; etc. Lots of breadth, not a lot of depth. I find it disheartening when the team member most likely to bring home a big win is an Australian import.

pwynnnorman

Apr. 11, 2008, 11:07 AM

I also haven't seen from the US riders in years, apart from KOC (and now Phillip Dutton), riders like Bruce or Mike or Jimmy who brought along horse after horse after horse that could be in serious contention for a major international win. Instead, we get a rider with a single superstar horse. Kim & Dan; Gina & Mckinleigh; Darren & Windfall; etc. Lots of breadth, not a lot of depth. I find it disheartening when the team member most likely to bring home a big win is an Australian import.

Wow. That's an interesting observation--worthy of its very own thread, perhaps? There are quite a few team contenders this time around who have only one top ride...but should it matter? (I honestly don't opinion on that. I'm asking.)

It is even worse when that teach continually belittles and dismisses the rest of the students as insignificant. At some point that teacher will no longer teach as students will refuse to take classes.

Reed, I gotta be frank, OK? I do know--all too well. I know how a person with already several strikes against them in the selectively perceptive, prejudicial minds of their audience can walk into a room and have everything that comes out of his or her mouth be interpreted as stupid, ignorant, arrogant or insulting no matter what he or she said.

And THAT is why I prefer to give Mr. Phillips the benefit of the doubt.

Indeed, what depresses me the most is that I fear these concerns are being taken seriously (and maybe rightfully so, maybe not--I don't really have any basis on which to draw definitive conclusions), the very things that affected my career will come into play. And to this day, I am very angered over those things.

Specifically, the folks who hired me fired me--without giving me even an iota of opportunity to defend myself, to have the students who loved how I taught come to my defense, to review the documented evidence that was in great abundance (since I'd learned over a decade and a half to always, always cover my ass with documentation), to weigh my style and its value against others using the very objectives I was hired to accomplish. Instead, I got sandbagged. I got sandbagged for busting my butt to truly HELP PEOPLE (as what the hell else would be my motivation anyway?).

I went through hell in my last employ--and I filed an EEOC complaint that was settled to my satisfaction. But that satisfaction doesn't erase what I experienced and as a result, I cannot ever, ever accept it when the bandwagon may be running over reality. Not with me and not with anyone else.

I will reserve judgment and hope that those who pay CMPs salary afford him the respect and consideration he deserves in stating his case.

eqsiu

Apr. 11, 2008, 11:30 AM

Frankly, I don't care how good the man is, or how well he does his job. In writing he strikes me as an arrogant ass.

However, because I have no idea how good he is at his job, I can't say that he shouldn't be doing it. The US has done quite well with him as coach, and like Bobby Knight, he'll stay as long as he gets the job done. It's not a congeniality contest.

I do, however, think he needs a bit more editing in his Eventing USA column. Someone to rephrase the more arrogant comments perhaps.

eqsiu

Apr. 11, 2008, 11:36 AM

Quote:
I also haven't seen from the US riders in years, apart from KOC (and now Phillip Dutton), riders like Bruce or Mike or Jimmy who brought along horse after horse after horse that could be in serious contention for a major international win. Instead, we get a rider with a single superstar horse. Kim & Dan; Gina & Mckinleigh; Darren & Windfall; etc. Lots of breadth, not a lot of depth. I find it disheartening when the team member most likely to bring home a big win is an Australian import.
Wow. That's an interesting observation--worthy of its very own thread, perhaps? There are quite a few team contenders this time around who have only one top ride...but should it matter? (I honestly don't opinion on that. I'm asking.)

Wasn't that one of the issues with Le Goff? That Mike, Bruce and Jimmy were on the team and that left only one spot for the rest? I think as long as we have enough combos, be they a few riders with many horses or many horse/rider pairs, we are okay. I think that the good thing about this sport is that you are competitive for years. You don't have to achieve your goals early in life, you can work towards that forever almost. Many complain that that leads to less turnover at the top, but it also means that the ersst have that many more chances to get there.

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 11, 2008, 11:54 AM

I would say that Mark Phillip's attitude is not that much different from many UL riders and coaches in this or any other equestrian sport.

That I would agree with you. I sometimes get a laugh when an UL rider is surprised I'm a good rider. Hell, I should be a better rider but that is a different story. There have been some good insights on this....I think Denny posted a very good one not too long ago ...can't remember which thread.

Anyway, CMP may be a good coach for some....I know several who have ridden with him and I have seen him teach. But really, I'd still rather ride with Jimmy and I'm sure there are people who want or would rather ride with someone else just as there are people who like to ride with CMP.....But the man has put his foot in his mouth a few times publicly....and that clearly can be improved.

I don't really care if he is the coach or not. Someone has to be the coach, someone will always disagree with the appointment of them and at the end of the day....the riders better already be good by the time they reach that point. At most, a coach at this level is giving strategy (how he thinks the course should be ridden--which they may or may not follow, line up for the order of go etc.), finess points etc.....NOT teaching them how to ride.

To me, he is just one person who has one set of views. I may or may not agree with them......and as I said on the "Haters" thread.....just because someone is an ULR, CMP or whatever, doesn't mean they should be worshipped or thier opinion is the only opinion. I personally think people are giving him more credit (both good and bad) then is really true.....sort of how Gore founded the internet.

eventer80

Apr. 11, 2008, 01:11 PM

This is sort of a random thought that I have been having about CMP and it doesn't really belong at this point in this thread (like the lady on SNL who was alwaysone conversation behind). I would like to put it out there though:

Perception is reality. For those of us that have never met CMP all we have to judge him by is his written word, his courses, and the results of his students. Yes, we do have the right to judge him b/c we are paying his bills and are the backbone of the sport he is involved with. Our perception is Our reality and when he is disrespectful to LL (but still intelligent) riders, he is shooting himself in the foot.

pwynnnorman

Apr. 11, 2008, 01:21 PM

But whose perception, eventer80?

When I would say something like: "Now don't be silly and ignore the evaluation form. Use it as a checklist so you won't fail this by missing important requirements."

Whose perception is representative of the reception of my statements: the students who sat in the front two rows of my classroom, day in and day out, listening carefully. Or the ones sleeping and talking in the back row who heard "silly" and proceeded to tune me out thereafter ... and then fail and complain to my superiors that I insulted them and was a horrible teacher and a horrible person?

Who was I supposed to address, standing there in front of those classes? And how much was I supposed to modify my natural style and anticipate how a certain group--not ALL, but just SOME--of students would react? And what about those students in the front who needed and wanted what I could provide for them? Who should I choose my words for--the front or the back? And how much time, energy and stress should I waste in even trying to figure out the crazy head games that go on, especially in the minds of already reluctant, resistant students, ill-prepared to deal with the subject I was teaching?

Please, I'm not off-topic here. I'm just using the analogy of my own experiences to illustrate the greyness of this subject.

eventer80

Apr. 11, 2008, 01:49 PM

Wynn- Good point.

Maybe I should have said "Each person's perception is their reality."

Whether one sits in the front or in the back, both of their experiences are real to each of them. (not that I don't agree with your feelings on the classroom illustration, which I do)

I guess I was trying to address the way that CMP was one one hand addressing the LLR as smurfs and then seemed to be appalled at the way we were judging him. Was he not doing the same to the LLR. When calling them smurfs?

grayarabpony

Apr. 11, 2008, 02:03 PM

For the record, before "the O'Connors", there was a woman named Karen Lende. And Karen Lende had a pretty spectacular international record starting in about, oh, 1979. So really, I'd not be giving CMP much credit in "bringing out the potential" where that one is concerned.

Yes, I know she used to be Karen Lende. Neither of the O'Connors were as successful as they before Phillips though. I remember seeing David O'Connor's disastrous round at The Hague where he threw his crop down after the ride and stomped off, looking a good bit like an angry 4-year-old, and Karen's round at Gawler wasn't exactly picture perfect either.

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 11, 2008, 02:07 PM

grayarabpony

Apr. 11, 2008, 02:12 PM

So they just happened to get better when he came along, or they're just late bloomers? :lol:

I don't much care for CMP either -- as I said earlier, because I don't like his support of where the sport is now -- but this idea that he's totally useless is just hogwash.

Debbie

Apr. 11, 2008, 03:36 PM

I try to stay away from the CMP bashing because it doesn't help the ultimate cause -- which is to improve safety in our sport. Bash his actions that diminish safety freely, bash his actions/words that diminish unanimity among everyone who engages in the sport, but keep the other bashing out of the discussion. (unless it's at a cocktail party and then come stand next to me. ;)) Not because I care about CMP's feelings, but because doing otherwise diminishes the focus on the more fundamental issues. Look at the forum right now and all the CMP threads, why give him that much air time and credibility?

If the majority of those in the sport gather the data and implement changes no one person will be able to stand in the way and if they try to they will marginalize themselves in due time. If the sport fully examines the data and makes changes as necessary to minimize preventable accidents then I don't really care who coaches the USET.

wanderlust

Apr. 11, 2008, 07:03 PM

Yes, I know she used to be Karen Lende. Neither of the O'Connors were as successful as they before Phillips though. I remember seeing David O'Connor's disastrous round at The Hague where he threw his crop down after the ride and stomped off, looking a good bit like an angry 4-year-old, and Karen's round at Gawler wasn't exactly picture perfect either.

Anecdotes of individual incidents aren't exactly a scientific argument... and then there's that whole pesky causation v. correlation thing. Take a look at some of Karen's major highlights pre-CMP... I wouldn't say she "just happened to get better" when he came along. She was already pretty spectacular.

1993
* Punchestown CCI***, Ireland
o 1st Shannon
o 3rd Enniskerry

1991
* Rolex Kentucky CCI***
o 1st Mr. Maxwell
* Burghley CCI***
o 3rd Mr. Maxwell

1989 * Fair Hill CCI***
o 1st Nos Ecus

1988 * Member USET Three Day Squad, Olympic Games, Seoul, Korea

1986 * Member USET Squad, World Championships, Gawler, Australia

1985 * Chesterland CCI***
o 1st Castlewellan

1984 * Boekelo CCI***, Holland
o 1st The Optimist

1979 * Badminton CCI****
o 10th March Brown