Resale value on an "off" breed dressage horse

[Ibex]

As I posted earlier, I'm looking around for a dressage horse on a budget. I got some GREAT leads (am going to look at an ASB in the next couple of weeks!), but have a question.

This horse is for *me*, not a resale project. But, as we all know, circumstances change, sometimes the match isn't right etc etc, and it's important to me that whatever I buy can go on to a happy career if I need to sell at some point.

So for those of you with an "off" breed, have you ever had more trouble selling than you would if the horse had been a WB? Or have a combination of good training and decent price ensured that the horse moved on successfully?

[Roan]

Depends what you mean by an "off" breed. Do you mean a TB or QH or?

If I decided to sell my Lipizzaner, for instance, I'll easily get more than I paid for her. Lipizzaners that are under saddle are hard to come by and not often for sale. When they are, they go fast. The only reason I'd even call them an "off" breed is because they are not the current fad -- WBs are.

Eileen

[ESG]

Much depends on the level of training, and to what level the horse has been shown. Normally, you'll have to buy a WB to get WB resale values. That said, if you stand a well-trained, 3rd level ASB who's scored well at recognized shows, against a WB who's a little harder to ride, with the same provenance, you're probably not going to get as much for the ASB. THen again, you might get more, due to the rideability factor. Temperament, soundness, training - if those three things are present in a sale horse, the breed doesn't much matter.

JMO. :cool:

[exvet]

As one who owns several of two "off breeds" and chooses to do/show primarily dressage I think you have to face the fact that if your resale market is only dressage enthusiasts the value is likely to be less as long as dressage remains what it is today. As others have said the degree of training, possession of good to great gaits, success in the show ring, work ethic and disposition can influence and impact how much you are able to maximize an individual's value. However, once you select an off breed there are those dressage enthusiasts/would be buyers who would never consider an off breed, any off breed and thus you automatically reduce your market. I just received a 63% at Fourth 1. Do you think I would be able to get the same $$ amount for my horse as a warmblood with equal ability and all other aspects other than breed traits being the same? My answer (and experience) is that it's highly unlikely to "absolutely not".

So, it's wise to broaden your horizons when one talks of resale. In other words know your true market which would include other enthusiasts of that off breed. I find that I sell (not that I sell that often, beasts have a tendency to live with me until their end but have sold a few) more to those who already own the breed than to others in dressage who have never had one of "my" breeds. Many times the would be buyers are also interested in dressage whereby if the beast is trained and going well increases his/her value significantly. Because that individual/would be buyer already wants brand X going level Y, they're going to have to pay 'cause like Lippizans there are simply not that many. However, the number of interested people are far fewer than your "dressage market". It really behooves one to know the bloodlines of a breed, what other aspects they tend to be good at and keep in touch with others who show that breed just to make sure the marketability of the beast is as big and as broad as possible. Plus I would say that networking within the breed really helps with sales. Even occasionally popping in at breed shows (if available) with said beast can help if future resale is important; but, that's just my experience. I'm sure many will disagree.

[Kathy Johnson]

There are "off" breeds, Arabs, QHs, TBs, etc. and there are "rare" breeds, Lipizzans, Friesians, Andalusians, etc.

Because of supply and demand, the rare breeds will always be worth more.

Somewhere in between are the breeds that have a very strong fan club following, Appaloosas, Morgans, Pintos, ASBs, and so on.

If you are reselling, you want to market to the right, breed appropriate audience, not necessarily to a general dressage audience.

[ashmotter]

A good rule of thumb: Never pay more for a horse than you can resell it for. However, I don't follow my own advice:) I do agree that if the temperament, training, and exposure are there, the breed shouldn't matter. However, a lot of people care more about the breed than the training sadly which I have seen result in some very upset horse/rider combinations:no: Ultimately, if this horse seems like what you are looking for now, go for it! Don't go into it looking at the perspective of...if things don't work out, I will sell it. That's like going into marriage saying...if things don't work out, we can get a divorce! It's too expensive on both ends of the spectrum and usually results in failure. Oh boy...I'm preachin now and I have not a clue why:confused: I am interested in more information on the horse though...I love the "off-breeds":)

[Eclectic Horseman]

I think it is tough if: the horse is small (under 16 hands) and it is not trained to perform classes suitable to its breed. Let me give you an example- an Arabian large for its size with fabulous breeding but trained only for dressage. The people who were most interested, were Arabian aficionados--not dressage riders who usually want tall horses that are WBs or WB crosses, or at least something that could pass for a WB. :lol:

But when the breed people show up to look at the horse, they cannot ride one side or the other of it because it is trained in dressage only, and these breed people usually aren't accomplished dressage riders.

So the only true buyer is a small person who can ride dressage who cannot afford a WB and can appreciate good training, or the very rare aficionado of the breed who is a 'real' dressage rider (not a tack changer, if you know what I mean. ;)) With that kind of a limited market, the price has to be very attractive to sell the horse.

[Trakehner]

There is a bias against saddlebreds...most undeserved. You'll have a problem selling a saddlebred anything. Take a look at Agdirect.com or any of the other horse sites....a few $20K+ horses, and a whole bunch of $2K guys.

I've had a saddlebred, great horse and she could do some very nice upper-level gaits...but when I tried to sell her....absolutely no market.

But, you can sure get a lot of horse for the money if you're buying.

[Ambrey]

I don't think you'll ever get the training money out of ANY horse. That said, if the horse is nicely built for dressage I think there's a market for people like us, who can't afford the WBs.

I can't imagine I'd have ANY trouble selling my horse for $2k-$3k more than I bought him for, which is still quite a bit less than a WB with a couple of months of professional training and a solid start in dressage. But he's young, tall, attractive, and will probably appeal to people looking for an eventing prospect as well.

On the other hand, I looked at a little appy schooling second lvl and she was asking pennies. Cutest horse ever. Seriously. Well, other than mine, but the third cutest horse ever! She was only 14.2, though, and that limited her options.

[Ibex]

Thanks everyone!

Just to clarify, I'm not as worried about recouping purchase price or training costs as I am about the horse having a good long career :)

[Roan]

. . .Because that individual/would be buyer already wants brand X going level Y, they're going to have to pay 'cause like Lippizans there are simply not that many. However, the number of interested people are far fewer than your "dressage market". It really behooves one to know the bloodlines of a breed, what other aspects they tend to be good at and keep in touch with others who show that breed just to make sure the marketability of the beast is as big and as broad as possible. Plus I would say that networking within the breed really helps with sales. Even occasionally popping in at breed shows (if available) with said beast can help if future resale is important; but, that's just my experience. I'm sure many will disagree.

I think you are spot on. We have an extensive network in the Lipizzaner world and even have our own Yahoo! groups and stuff. The person most likely to buy my mare would be someone interested in the breed and not someone who wants a dressage horse -- unless they want a *natural* dressage horse that doesn't have to be taught how to use its hind end :lol:

Eileen

[MyReality]

Do we have problem selling an off-breed dressage horse? Not that I know of. However, it is a different market, it is a different price range. Combination of good training and pricing always moves a horse... as well as marketing to the right people.

However, my experience is, that horse must look and feel, moves more like a dressage horse than what the original breeding might call for. i.e. if you have a draft cross, it must look and move light. If you have an Arab, it must not look high, or moves like a deer. The buyer experience has to be, oh here is a dressage horse, what breed is it again?

The form has to reflect the training and breeding adaptation. Then when you ride it, it should not feel very different from any relatively well trained dressage horse. If those two things are there, no problem selling usually... it will also help if you use your trainers wisely in the process.

Off breed, you're looking at horses with some real experience and good temperament. Without those, harder to attract the average ammies and price will reflect that. So if the horse is 3 and green broke, it should be cheaper for an off breed unless his full siblings are doing very well that kind of thing or crossed with a famous proven sire. WB, it is easier to attract ignorant buyers who has cash, and the dressage rider wannabes. Of course if your WB has real talent, he is already sold at 2 or 3.

I know 2 off-breed being transacted at above the 10,000 range last month or so.

[Jealoushe]

The value of a horse depends on the talent/training of the horse. If its a nice horse, you will be ablt to sell it. Even the most unpopular breed of horse can sell for big bucks if the horse is nice/successful. Also, a pinto is not a breed, its a colour.

[ESG]

The buyer experience has to be, oh here is a dressage horse, what breed is it again?


Exactly. :yes:

[canticle]

I strongly discourage breeders from breeding off-type horses. :no: Any horse that is not recognizable as a representative of his breed is a poor specimen imo.

[mp]

Let me give you an example- an Arabian large for its size with fabulous breeding but trained only for dressage. The people who were most interested, were Arabian aficionados--not dressage riders who usually want tall horses that are WBs or WB crosses, or at least something that could pass for a WB. :lol:

But when the breed people show up to look at the horse, they cannot ride one side or the other of it because it is trained in dressage only, and these breed people usually aren't accomplished dressage riders.

Is your example real or hypothetical? Just curious. I promise I'm not going to pick a fight re: how a lot of Arabian show folks ride. ;)

I was just wondering about the "trained only for dressage" part. I'm showing TL/schooling 1st and occasionally show in breed rail classes (hunter pleasure). Do we look just like the other horses/riders in the ring? No. In fact, it's like being in another world. My instructor came to watch me show and and asked "What ARE those riders doing with their hands? :lol: But we do OK.

Maybe you're talking about a horse that's schooling much higher?

[MyReality]

There is suitability for a sport, and there is breeding a type suitable for a particular prescribed function according to some breed society (may not be dressage). When the two comes together, you have a traditional breed, for dressage: like a WB. Breeding, in many breeds, have gone extreme and not true to the original purpose anyways. A horse that is not useful in sports is going to be met with a much smaller market. Many breeders have gone on, and produced lines/breeds aiming at suitability for a sport, while retaining desirable traits of the original breeds. IMO, there is nothing wrong with it. True, they are not particularly good examples of the original breed, but it makes business sense, you have happy horses who can do their jobs.

I can see both sides of the argument.

[Ibex]

Intersting.

The horse I'm looking at is actually an "old type", bred as a working or sport horse, not as a Saddleseat show horse.

[Roan]

There is suitability for a sport, and there is breeding a type suitable for a particular prescribed function according to some breed society (may not be dressage). When the two comes together, you have a traditional breed, for dressage: like a WB. . . .Hrm, can we define "traditional"? I'm having a hard time choking down WBs as a traditional breed for dressage since there are other breeds that have been bred for nigh 500 years for dressage.

How about "popular"? 'Cause that about sums it up.

Eileen

[Roan]

Intersting.

The horse I'm looking at is actually an "old type", bred as a working or sport horse, not as a Saddleseat show horse.

What kinda "old type", Ibex? You'd probably get better answers if people knew what you were thinking ;)

Eileen

[Valentina_32926]

Agree with ESG -
At lower levels you'll get more money for a WB, as most people would rather buy a WB for X dollars (trained to say First level) than a non WB trained to same level fopr same amount of money. (expectation - correct or not - is that WBs have more potential to move up the levels than non WB.)

Once you hit SHOWING (recognized shows) at 3rd level and above horse is worth more (as long as it's trained correctly).. but I'd always expect to pay more for a WB trained to same level as a non-WB.

Hope that's clearer than mud. :winkgrin:

[cuatx55]

It only takes one buyer to make a sale, but knowing the market going in I would not expect to make a huge sale. There just isn't the backing. I want another arab- arabx but I am very weird. I happen to be a dressage rider who likes this cross. I am a minority. Knowing that the deck is stacked against me I would not sell to make a profit. I would buy the horse that I want to ride. my friends horse was worth 20-30K as a show quality arabian (nationals) who is fantastic. The comparable WB would be 50K.

[canticle]

It's also important to note that these horses tend not to change hands very many times throughout their lives. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who is willing to let a good horse go, for any price. With people only buying new horses once every 15-20 years, the market dynamics are going to be very different. In some respects they are worth more because so many of them are not for sale.

[columbus]

I think the bias is in horses that are small...even the people looking for a small horse expect to pay less for the small horse even if very good and well trained. There are breeds that run small and there are breeds that should be small but someone bred them to be tall and they are now out of balance. Some Morgans and Arabs come to mind...a fourteen hand body on 16 hands of legs. They are tough to advance as they are hard to maintain a rythmic trot on. That is where having the smarts of a good horse person comes in. A good small horses can be the real deal.

I saw a 13.3 hand traditional type Morgan at a Robert Dover clinic. It blew everyone away...by FAR the most talented horse at the clinic. Dover rode the little thing and it was wonderful. If however you think you can fins such a talented horse and you look at the average Morgan barn you'll never find them. Morgans have so much illegal Saddlebred blood...not the good old stuff but the modern terrible stuff...you have to know where to find the breeders selecting for a good horse.

I breed Irish Draughts and we have horses with tremendous apptitude for dressage but people don't know what they are so they get excited when they SEE my horses work but the number of people who come look is less as they think heavy draft Percheron when they hear Irish Draught and they couldn't be farther from the truth. My mare is advancing easily and is full of charisma as well.

All of us have seen talented horses of all breeds and I think we are happy to be surprised when we see a well trained horse from a breed usually not seen. If they are at shows it would be easier to sell than if you have to sell from an ad on the e-sales sites. It IS becoming easier with the ability to post video but it is harder and there are places very unlikely to see odd breeds like the Olympic short list for example. However if the goal is to find an upper level candidate for cheap and you have the time or the network to beat the bushes there are treasures all over the place in most breeds. There are FAR more horses that could do Grand Prix than riders to take them there. PatO

[columbus]

The great thing about many breeds are their payback programs. The Arabian breed has a couple of payback programs that you can work toward. I think there are prizes for QHs at Grand Prix and Appys but those might have lapsed. If I were smaller I would be taking advantage of the Arabian Sport Horse program and Nationals. Heck you could be part of the effort to save the real working Arab...or Morgan...or Saddlebred...PatO who is looking for good people to help preserve the Irish Draught Horse

[poltroon]

I don't think you'd have any trouble selling a dressage horse of any breed if it's getting solid 62%+ at 2nd level or above. There are always riders wanting a horse like that. People on a budget actively seek out horses of different breeding.

You're not going to sell for top dollar compared to a WB. But if all you're worried about is that your training won't go to waste, I'm certain that a classy ad with a great photo and a mention of good scores at 2nd or higher will sell a dressage horse of any breed or height, especially if the effect is more "dressage horse" than "Breed X."