Should the U.S. boycott the Olympics?

[ridgeback]

Based on what is going on in Tibet and Darfur should the U.S. boycott the olympics?

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=dw-olygamble040708&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

I think it stinks they picked China in the first place..

[oldschool]

Of course not. the purpose of the Olympics, I thought, was for nations to come together sans politics , and enjoy sport competition. The protests in Paris and England I think, are in bad form and an embarassement. Protests and the like are fine in their proper context. China, with all its terrible faults, after years of being shut off to the world, is actually inviting athletes to come together on their soil. The smart thing to do is for these protesters to behave themselves, let the games continue , and get in there on Chinese turf and show the chinese people how the rest of the us get along . To abstain would only create more hostility." Keep your friends close and your enemies closer". THAT is my point.

[NeverTime]

Slightly off -- and far more trivial than -- the original topic (and already posted on the eventing thread), but Nike is apparently not planning on riders boycotting, as they've unveiled their 2008 Olympic line today. It includes gear for every sport, including riding.

Check these boots (http://www.sneakerfreaker.com/sneaker-releases/Nike-Ippeas-2008-Olympics/) out.:eek:

[ridgeback]

Slightly off -- and far more trivial than -- the original topic (and already posted on the eventing thread), but Nike is apparently not planning on riders boycotting, as they've unveiled their 2008 Olympic line today. It includes gear for every sport, including riding.

Check these boots (http://www.sneakerfreaker.com/sneaker-releases/Nike-Ippeas-2008-Olympics/) out.:eek:

Sorry don't pay attention to the eventing board:lol:

[Fantastic]

Are those the ultimate in S & M boots, or WHAT?

I think it's great that Nike is dabbling in equestrian gear, but those Nike riding boots, the Nike Ippeas riding boot is pretty spooky with those spurs!!


NIKE IPPEAS (2008 OLYMPICS)Published: Apr 8th, 2008

Nike Ippeas (Greek for “Rider”)
Sport: Equestrian

Equestrian footwear has not changed much in the last century. The sport is steeped in traditional English heritage where leather boots, wood soles, and hard-pressed leather outsoles have been standard issue for horseback riding since the 1800s. Nike designers wanted to bring new innovation to that paradigm while still respecting the institution of the sport. For Beijing, Nike’s Equestrian footwear reflects the best elements of the sport’s deep traditions, but is elevated by innovative design and unique performance features. Again, designers started with the athlete. After listening to insights and ideas from top equestrian athletes, several rounds of prototypes were produced and improved with each effort. The final creation was the Nike Ippeas, a beautiful leather and synthetic boot that provides protection, support, traction, traditional aesthetic, and horse control in a total package that also reduces weight by eliminating the need for strap-on spurs.

Nike developed many innovations for the Nike Ippeas, including rubber pads for the outsoles of the boots to improve stirrup traction, an adjustable titanium screw-in spur system (inspired by track spikes) that eliminates the need for additional hardware on the ankles, and a full-length engineered zipper for easy on-and-off. Perhaps the most revolutionary development is the most subtle: a thin, high-abrasion synthetic rubber material on the medial side of the boot that delivers improved grip on the horse and saddle, which gives the rider better communication with the animal and increased stability during demanding jumps.

Key Features
-Crafted footwear that marries innovation with the classic silhouette a riding boot
-Rubber outsole pads to improve traction on stirrups
-Asymmetrical zipper for comfortable on-and-off
-Track and field-inspired screw mount spurs (three possible positions)
-Full length Zoom Air cushioning for underfoot comfort
-High-abrasion synthetic rubber on medial boot for control and communication

[Surviving the Dramas]

Not being an American, but still relevant.

I'd be more inclined to boycott the Olympics because of the smog and terrible pollution than I would for the problems in Tibet. I agree with Oldschool in that the Olympics is supposed to rise above political issues (though Tibet is a biggy).

We have been getting broadcasts from China on our news networks almost daily as NZ has just signed a free trade agreement with them :eek: and the view in the background is disturbing. You can barely see the highrise buildings less than 1 mile away. I'd be worried about the horses in that kind of pollution. :no:

[Spectrum]

I'm thinking they would have to ditch the red before anyone would be able to wear them for dressage. Apparently someone forgot to point out the color issue to them, LOL.

Any word on price? They could be a nice schooling boot. They look comfortable.

Spectrum.

[Carol O]

No. This is sports, not politics. I love Jimmy Carter, but I will always resent his decision in 1980. Imagine if they were here this time, with the US having invaded Iraq. This is a time we can rise above politics and play. Maybe if we did it more often we would all get along better. Imagine.

[nhwr]

I think yes. It isn't as if sports are even in the same category as human rights. And the record of the Chinese is horrible (of course, ours isn't that great either :uhoh:) I can't imagine what IOC was thinking.

[ridgeback]

I think yes. It isn't as if sports are even in the same category as human rights. And the record of the Chinese is horrible (of course, ours isn't that great either :uhoh:) I can't imagine what IOC was thinking.

I'm thinking I agree with you...This should not be the athletes problem but the IOC made a horrible decision on giving the games to China.. Between Tibet and Darfur I'm leaning to a boycott..

[Arabian Knights]

Slightly off -- and far more trivial than -- the original topic (and already posted on the eventing thread), but Nike is apparently not planning on riders boycotting, as they've unveiled their 2008 Olympic line today. It includes gear for every sport, including riding.

Check these boots (http://www.sneakerfreaker.com/sneaker-releases/Nike-Ippeas-2008-Olympics/) out.:eek:

"here's a few highlights from Day One that really took our breath away, but the unexpected sucker punch was that there are now Nike models specifically designed for ALL sports... yep, that's ALL sports, every single one, even the weird pursuits such as sailing, archery, badminton, horse riding and weightlifting!"

Since when did riding become a "weird" sport anyway?:eek:
Those boots, now that is weird:yes:

[egontoast]

It's certainly easier to support a boycott when it does not affect you or your friends who have not qualified. Ask someone who has qualified what THEY think. You know. The people who have been working for years to get to the Olympics and had no input on the choice of host country.

The time to deal with this was when the host country was being selected.

I think a boycott would not be effective and just allows the politicians to pass the buck , sacrifice the athletes and look good while doing nothing significant such as trade sanctions.

[ridgeback]

It's certainly easier to support a boycott when it does not affect you or your friends who have not qualified. Ask someone who has qualified what THEY think. You know. The people who have been working for years to get to the Olympics and had no input on the choice of host country.

The time to deal with this was when the host country was being selected.

I think a boycott would not be effective and just allows the politicians to pass the buck , sacrifice the athletes and look good while doing nothing significant such as trade sanctions.

I do agree with you it's not the athletes problem or fault, that can rest soley with the IOC but I'm wondering if human rights and the awful things going on in Darfur and Tibet doesn't out way sport. I'm still conflicted that is why I wanted to hear what others thought..always good to hear other views.

[Dixon]

I'd be more inclined to boycott the Olympics because of the smog and terrible pollution than I would for the problems in Tibet.

Yes. Competing in China poses physical danger for athletes who will fully exert themselves under horrible smog and pollution conditions, not to mention the risk of defective structures, bad water, etc. I guarantee you that with the haste and shortcuts China used in building the Olympic facilities, things will break, fall, injure people, etc. Athletes who go won't even "experience" China because due to all the tainted food and other products that China produces, athletes will have to bring all their own food and other supplies from home. They'll be in segregated housing, etc. If the water piped in for showers gets into their eyes or mouths, they could get infections. Yes, the Chinese have to boil their tap water -- good thing tea is prevalent. Athletes can represent their countries in SO many other international competitions that they really shouldn't risk their well-being to compete to a country that consistently refuses to impose quality control or otherwise play by any recognized rules. China cheats, and we should not play their games, whether Olympic or otherwise.

[ridgeback]

Yes. Competing in China poses physical danger for athletes who will fully exert themselves under horrible smog and pollution conditions, not to mention the risk of defective structures, bad water, etc. I guarantee you that with the haste and shortcuts China used in building the Olympic facilities, things will break, fall, injure people, etc. Athletes who go won't even "experience" China because due to all the tainted food and other products that China produces, athletes will have to bring all their own food and other supplies from home. They'll be in segregated housing, etc. If the water piped in for showers gets into their eyes or mouths, they could get infections. Yes, the Chinese have to boil their tap water -- good thing tea is prevalent. Athletes can represent their countries in SO many other international competitions that they really shouldn't risk their well-being to compete to a country that consistently refuses to impose quality control or otherwise play by any recognized rules. China cheats, and we should not play their games, whether Olympic or otherwise.

Not to mention the heat..it's my understanding they don't even race TB's in August because it's to hot..

[tiny's strapper]

Not to mention the heat..it's my understanding they don't even race TB's in August because it's to hot..



it's actually typhoon season in Hong Kong during the Olympics, so you can well imagine the humidity and its effect on the horses, although I believe the stable complex is air conditioned.

[oldschool]

I may be mistaken, but regarding the pollution and heat etc., wasn't it well over 100 degrees during the Atlanta games and the the runners were complaining about the increased elevation and lack of oxygen in Denver? I'm sure the Los Angeles games were no picnic either. My idea is, our athletes have trained so long and hard for this, for many ,their last chance to realize a dream. After Darfur, and Tibet, etc., etc., there will always be something we can protest on our own time. Don't destroy the one thing that has brought the whole world together{for the most part}. Conditions won't be prime everytime. The beauty of the game is that the athletes deal with it, as long as the horse has proper care and consideration. Let the best man,or woman win!

[Bogey2]

NO, they should not boycott. The Olympics is not about Politics. A boycott will have no effect on that country. Where is everyone day in day out on the issue? Why not do something like divest, not buy merchandise made in China, throw yourself in front of a tank.

[ESG]

Absolutely not.

While I agree that the IOC, in its infinite stupidity, shouldn't have awarded the Games to China in the first place, they did. And those athletes that have worked like hell for four years don't give a rat's ass about politics; they just want to be able to compete. I don't blame them. If I had a berth on an Olympic team and my country suddenly had a belated attack of political conscience (or wanted to look politically correct to the world :dead: ) and boycotted, I'd find someplace else to live. That just sucks. Why make athletes, who have no political statements to make, but everything to lose, pay? And for what? As a sap to people who don't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever being in their position, so they don't care? Bullshit. I'd like to see any one of you who support boycotting work for something for most of your life, earn it, and then be told you can't have it because someone else wants to make a politicial statement at your expense. I can't even believe this is being considered again. Because, you know, the Moscow boycott made such a difference in world politics. :rolleyes:

Here's a thought; why don't we all boycott the presidential election instead? Let's let those politicians know what it feels like to spend years of effort and millions of dollars to achieve a goal, only to have it pulled away from you at the last minute. If only something like that were possible, it might give them (and those of you who support boycotting) a clue as to exactly what you're asking others to sacrifice,.........for no freaking reason except someone else's political conscience.

Wasted effort always pisses me off. This level of wasted effort is unimaginable. :mad:

[freestyle2music]

I trully believe that a boycot has to come from governments, politicians, artists etc..

A good start :

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article3704640.ece

As you probably know the Dutch always have the famous Heineken House at the Olympics. This year the Heineken House couldn't get any artists, singers, popgroups etc who wanted to perform in Beying. The Games have started already !

[RageMan]

I'm not sure if it's a government's place to boycott the Olympics. On the other hand, if individual athletes choose not to participate due to political or environmental concerns, I fully support them.

And really, I can see where equestrian sports would be considered 'weird', but badminton? It's just a variation of the old "hitting one object with another object" theme.

[TKR]

I think the Olympics should be boycotted by all the countries with protesters. The Olympic Committee should be forced to use better judgement in choosing an Olympic site. The human rights stuff is just horrible, but after reading the article about how they gathered up all the cats and put them in death camps on the heels of the battery/killing of dogs several months ago, I certainly don't intend to watch anything. It has to stop somewhere.
PennyG

[ise@ssl]

NO - the athletes who train to make these teams should not be denied their Olympic experience for political purposes. If any individuals had an issue with the conditions in China - they've known the games were going to be there for years and could have opted to NOT compete to make the teams.

I also feel many people who are now saying we should boycott - are taking on this position NOW and have done nothing in their own lives (outside of sports) to address the problems that are in the spotlight now. Why as Olympic Athletes to boycott when far more people could affect change in their own personal lives and have done nothing.

[J Swan]

No. And shame on the people who attacked the torchbearer.

The only people who suffer from a boycott are the athletes - complete innocents. I'm not fond of China and its policies; but punishing innocent people is not the way to bring about change.

Those athletes just want to compete. Leave them alone and let them reach their goals.

Politics can wait.

[ridgeback]

No. And shame on the people who attacked the torchbearer.

The only people who suffer from a boycott are the athletes - complete innocents. I'm not fond of China and its policies; but punishing innocent people is not the way to bring about change.

Those athletes just want to compete. Leave them alone and let them reach their goals.

Politics can wait.

Great points from everyone.. I now think maybe the games should go on but now that the world has seen what is going on in Darfur and Tibet hopefully it will make a difference for those nations...Hopefully citizens of the world will stand up and hold their governments accountable to do something but at the some time allow the games to go on...Idealist I know:)

[J Swan]

The only way to get China out of Tibet is to force them. No one cared in the 50's, and now China is entrenched in Tibet, and pretty much controls economic production.

So - they have military power, economic power, and a billion people to feed.

Any sympathy I felt towards people protesting the Games completely evaporated with the attack on the torchbearer. Violence and silencing/instilling fear in the innocent is the very thing people are protesting about with China. That the same tactic was used against a torchbearer was appalling.

I hope no athletes, including horses, are victimized at the Games. I remember Munich. :cry:

[Ilex]

Boycott the Olympics?

Absolutely not!

We could stop buying steel from them though. Or any number of other products. Does anyone honestly believe that any other country in the world would give a flying flip if the USA was not at the games?

If your really ticked at China.....the next time you go shopping. Boycott 'made in China'. Ask where the steel used to make your vehicles/farm equipment comes from.

[bip]

Lessons from history: Never boycott the UN or the Olympics. Stuff happens while you aren't there that you can't change, and no one learns anything from your boycott anyway.

With our preemptive strike on Iraq, the US has lost the moral high ground anyway.

I hope Chinese grassroots protesters go nuts during the Olympics though. Any behind the scenes support we could provide to that would be our best bet.

[nhwr]

It is not about just Tibet and Darfur. I remember Tienemen Square, the numerous and routine political executions, habitual disregard for copyrights and other intellectual property protections, adulterated Heparin, wheat gluten. And don't even get me started about their international trade and monetary policies.

To me, the most important ideal of the Olympics is sportsmanship that means open competition that is free and honorable. I realize that we often miss that mark. The Chinese don't even acknowledge that should be the target. I have always been fascinated by Chinese history and culture. What the Chinese crave now is a seat at the party, the respect of major world players. Hosting the Olympics is a token of that respect in the world community. I don't think, as a country, China is worthy of it.

[MaresNest]

I would support a boycott because of (in no particular order) Tibet, Darfur, pollution, and China's abysmal human and animal rights records.

[LD1129]

I would rather boycott those Nike riding boots, yikes :lol::lol:

[egontoast]

Those who are supporting a boycott might want to start at home and find out how many items you own which were produced in China. You might be surprised.

[ESG]

I would support a boycott because of (in no particular order) Tibet, Darfur, pollution, and China's abysmal human and animal rights records.

And because it's no skin off your nose, since you have nothing to lose. Way to be selfishly PC, at someone else's expense. :rolleyes:

[Dixon]

nhwr, very well said!

Egontoast, you assume WAY too much about your fellow BBrs. Some of us have been working on China issues for a very long time, successfully lobbied the Olympic Committee NOT to award China the 2000 Games, lobbied the Olympic Committee not to award China the 2008 Games (unfortunately to no avail), avoid buying Chinese goods, and do in fact put our money and actions where our mouths are. Just because you feel it impossible to make a difference doesn't mean it is.

[MaresNest]

And because it's no skin off your nose, since you have nothing to lose. Way to be selfishly PC, at someone else's expense. :rolleyes:

Hmmm, interesting. All I said was I would support a boycott. I didn't say you should support one. I didn't even say that I'm petitioning the USOC for one. (And, in fact, I'm not.) I find it interesting that offering my opinion was enough to warrant an eyeroll and accusation of being selfish. I didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to think for myself.

[MaresNest]

Those who are supporting a boycott might want to start at home and find out how many items you own which were produced in China. You might be surprised.

I agree, egontoast. I am making a conscious effort not to buy Chinese products.

[Bogey2]

Egontoast, you assume WAY too much about your fellow BBrs. Some of us have been working on China issues for a very long time, successfully lobbied the Olympic Committee NOT to award China the 2000 Games, lobbied the Olympic Committee not to award China the 2008 Games (unfortunately to no avail), avoid buying Chinese goods, and do in fact put our money and actions where our mouths are. Just because you feel it impossible to make a difference doesn't mean it is.

raise your hands if you have been this involved in the past few years

[Bogey2]

by the way...does this include a Chinese Food Boycott?

[Rachel L]

I guarantee you that with the haste and shortcuts China used in building the Olympic facilities, things will break, fall, injure people, etc. Athletes who go won't even "experience" China because due to all the tainted food and other products that China produces, athletes will have to bring all their own food and other supplies from home. They'll be in segregated housing, etc. If the water piped in for showers gets into their eyes or mouths, they could get infections.

Wow, this is comically xenophobic. Millions of people survive eating, bathing, and walking in and out of buildings EVERY DAY in China! Really! Its true!

[Dixon]

And many people don't. Surprised you heard it here first.
(Hand raised in response to Bogey's post).

[riverbell93]

It is not about just Tibet and Darfur. I remember Tienemen Square, the numerous and routine political executions, habitual disregard for copyrights and other intellectual property protections, adulterated Heparin, wheat gluten. And don't even get me started about their international trade and monetary policies. To me, the most important ideal of the Olympics is sportsmanship that means open competition that is free and honorable. I realize that we often miss that mark. The Chinese don't even acknowledge that should be the target.

Beautifully said. A boycott is a powerful expression of international feeling and China could use a little encouragement to at least pretend to play by the rules of the rest of the developed world. And the Olympics have always been political - that's the nature of an event where athletes compete in national teams. An apolitical event would have the athletes simply compete as individuals.

I don't understand the emotion about athletes missing the Olympics. When the Games were strictly amateur, that made sense. But now that the Games have well and truly become a competition for professionals, every sport has its own major pro competition(s) that are, usually, more prestigious athletically than the Olympics. Every time the Olympics roll around, I hear stories from all sports about how this athelete or that athlete didn't want to compete because the Olympics was secondary in their mind - an honor, but not quite as good as winning or doing well at their particular sport's highest honor.

[nhwr]

You know, this argument typifies something that bothers me about competitive sports and maybe the world, generally. Daily we have the opportunity to make choices that may further our achievement at the expense of character. Often it seems it doesn't matter how you win as longer as you do win. I know athletes who might miss the games would be disappointed. Civilians in the Sudan and Chad in path of Janjaweed militias face a little more than disappointment.

And to those who say the games aren't political, right :rolleyes: Why do they organize teams by country? What are all those flags doing in the Opening and Closing ceremonies? Why do they do a medal count by country? What is with the flag raising and national anthems at the podium? Why was China so desperate to host them? Don't be so naive. The Games have always been and will always be shrouded in politics and the all athletes know it.

OBTW, we have been avoiding Chinese products at our house for a couple of years now.

[tiny's strapper]

<snip> Every time the Olympics roll around, I hear stories from all sports about how this athelete or that athlete didn't want to compete because the Olympics was secondary in their mind - an honor, but not quite as good as winning or doing well at their particular sport's highest honor.

Every sport ??!!
maybe fringe Olympic sports like Tennis, Basketball and Baseball, but the core sports the Olympic revolve around, Track and Field, Swimming, etc, it is the epitome of competition and any athlete involved in these sports will tell you that.

[tiny's strapper]

This sort of thing is a step towards getting the Chinese Government to listen.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/im-saying-it-in-plain-mandarin-fix-tibet/2008/04/09/1207420485559.html

World leaders saying the Governments heavy handed actions aren't good enough. Olympics boycotts only hurt the athletes.
Yes, the Olympics will be a tub thumping propaganda exercise for the Chinese, but did the IOC really expect anything different ?

[ESG]

Hmmm, interesting. All I said was I would support a boycott.

Yes. And all I said was that it's easy to support something that doesn't cost you anything but a thought and some typing time.

I didn't say you should support one. I didn't even say that I'm petitioning the USOC for one. (And, in fact, I'm not.)

Well, it'd be a bit of a waste of time now, don't you think? The time to let the USOC know your opinion so that it might have a chance of mattering, was before the Games were awarded.

I find it interesting that offering my opinion was enough to warrant an eyeroll and accusation of being selfish.

No more interesting than stating that our athletes should give up their chance at a Games, just because you don't like the host country. When you make a statement like that, you're basically saying that your political beliefs are more important than the blood sweat and tears the athletes have expended to earn a chance at Olympic gold. And if that isn't selfish, I don't know what is.

I didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to think for myself.

No one's stopping you from thinking for yourself, or making statements. But, as this board should have taught you long ago, be prepared for negative feedback when you express unpopular opinions.

A flame suit helps, too, I've found. ;)

[Bogey2]

You know, this argument typifies something that bothers me about competitive sports and maybe the world, generally. Daily we have the opportunity to make choices that may further our achievement at the expense of character. Often it seems it doesn't matter how you win as longer as you do win. I know athletes who might miss the games would be disappointed. Civilians in the Sudan and Chad in path of Janjaweed militias face a little more than disappointment.

And to those who say the games aren't political, right Why do they organize teams by country? What are all those flags doing in the Opening and Closing ceremonies? Why do they do a medal count by country? What is with the flag raising and national anthems at the podium? Why was China so desperate to host them? Don't be so naive. The Games have always been and will always be shrouded in politics and the all athletes know it.

there are a lot of things that are not right in this world..and I commend you for doing your part. BUT, to expect an athlete to not do what they do because "Civilians in the Sudan and Chad in path of Janjaweed militias face a little more than disappointment." is extrememly judgemental. Do you own a horse? If so, why not give up the horsey lifestyle and spend your money helping those civilians? Do you live comfortably? Then why not give up that comfort for the civilians. Honestly, look at yourselves, what do YOU have that you should be giving up for those who do not have?
The olympics are not political, you are making it political. Put your money where your mouth is and give up your own lifestyle then tell me what an athlete should be giving up so "civilians won't be disappointed".
I do my part for the community I live in, but I also work hard for what I have achieved. I will never make it to the olympics but if I did, I would be proud to represent my country anywhere in the world.
Why is competitive sports so different from a wallstreet investor, a store manager, a babysitter??? We all want to do a great job even if it is different jobs.

YIKES....I need to calm down...I hate it when we people who make a living off this sport are looked down on. I am an honorable person as is my trainer..we are athletes and good people....who happen to compete which helps our sport and our business.

[MaresNest]

ESG, I agree with you about 2 things:

1.) It is easy to support something that costs me nothing but a thought and some typing time. The fact that it's easy doesn't make it wrong or selfish, though.

2.) The Games never should have been given to China in the first place. But they were. And countries will make their own decisions about whether or not to go.

Wooo consensus!

As I said before, I am not calling for the US to boycott, but I would support it if we did. The reason I support a boycott but am not lobbying for one is that I do recognize that the real sacrifice will come from others. As we have already agreed, for me it is easy. For someone who has qualified, it is not. And so I'm not presuming to tell them what to do. But I would support a boycott wholeheartedly, if one were to be initiated by the athletes/USOC.

And that's all I said (in less detail) in my initial post. The thread is entitled 'Should the US boycott the Olympics?', and I was just giving my answer. I didn't attack anyone else's position, and - frankly - I find the 'this board should have taught you long ago' justification for personal attacks to be very tired. It seems to be a pretty standard argument trotted out in these types of situations, and I don't ever buy it. Personal attacks are not justified just because they happen to occur frequently. Of course, I also understand being passionate about an issue, as you undoubtedly are about this one, and typing something angry in the heat of the moment. So I'm not going to say any more about this. This issue now has my official stamp of Water Under The Bridge.

Again, I realize it's much easier for me to say that a boycott is justified than it is for an Olympic athlete to say it. But that doesn't make it less right. You are free to take issue with the notion that a boycott would do any good, or the notion that it isn't too late to pull out. Those are both debatable issues. I, for one, would be proud of the USOC/athletes if they initiated a boycott, but it is their call, not mine.

[quiet5]

(snip)
We have been getting broadcasts from China on our news networks almost daily as NZ has just signed a free trade agreement with them :eek: and the view in the background is disturbing. You can barely see the highrise buildings less than 1 mile away. I'd be worried about the horses in that kind of pollution. :no:

Yes, the smog IS an ENORMOUS concern for the horses' and the athletes' welfare--I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that quite a FEW riders have withdrawn because of these concerns.

No. This is sports, not politics. I love Jimmy Carter, but I will always resent his decision in 1980. (snip)

My brother was on the 1980 USA Swim Team.

It was SUCH a HUGE disappointment for him and for us as well (though obviously not in the same way) that he could not go. Back then the games were exclusively amateur! That was (and still is for swimmers and track & field and a few others--as someone else mentioned)
a HUGE deal--to be on The Team and compete in The Games!

All that work for all those years...Then to make it on The Team! OMG!

And then you cannot go because your President announces an official boycott. :o:dead: And then announced that the passports of US athletes who try to go anyway would be revoked...:o

Yes, China is awful in SO many horrific ways and when the choice was made I couldn't believe it! But boycotting the games NOW will not actually make China change. Don't kid yourselves. China will change when and if and how China wants to change--witness the government's encouragement to to pursue personal "profit" in a communist economy! Never would have happened back in the day!

But China understands the political advantage of being economically viable...

Yes, China IS horrible in so many more ways than have been noted here in this thread. Yes, everything can be political.

I vote for boycotting with your wallet: stop purchasing cheap Chinese goods! Buy from local producers. Try an economic boycott because that may actually influence the political situation far more than will the boycotting the Olympics.

I just hope all the athletes, human and animal, are well cared for and make it through a very taxing environment which is sure to affect their performance.

They need our support. JMHO.

[Arabian Knights]

Boycott the Olympics?

Absolutely not!

We could stop buying steel from them though. Or any number of other products. Does anyone honestly believe that any other country in the world would give a flying flip if the USA was not at the games?

If your really ticked at China.....the next time you go shopping. Boycott 'made in China'. Ask where the steel used to make your vehicles/farm equipment comes from.
:yes:
I totally agree! If you want to boycott something, think about what your buying. Look at the label and try to buy American. Here is a great website that can help:

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/index.php

[nhwr]

On the one hand there is sports (a leisure pursuit) and on the other hand suppression of civil rights and rape gangs... Call me judgmental, but it just doesn't seem like a very difficult choice to me :rolleyes:

Anyone who supports an economic boycott of China ought to support a boycott of the Olympics. Besides the politics, the Games will bring an awful lot of hard currency into China.

Whatever.... the IOC made their decision and anyone training for the Games knew it would be controversial. So the sad tale of all the hard work being squandered just doesn't cut it with me.

But don't worry. W won't do anything to piss off the world's fastest growing consumer of petroleum, especially in an election year. Coincidence? hmmmmmm... It is not as though the IOC would think politically ;)

[ESG]

On the one hand there is sports (a leisure pursuit) and on the other hand suppression of civil rights and rape gangs... Call me judgmental, but it just doesn't seem like a very difficult choice to me :rolleyes:

I don't think anyone is debating your point. It's just that boycotting the Games isn't going to change how China treats her people,..............or anyone else's. They haven't changed in about four thousand years; I seriously doubt that a few countries, however large or small, who choose not to send athletes to the Games, are going to have any impact whatsoever. Any more than the US had on Russia, over Afghanistan in 1980. Nothing changed then, except our athletes were royally screwed by our own government. Nice. :mad:

Anyone who supports an economic boycott of China ought to support a boycott of the Olympics.

No. They are two different things. The Chinese government isn't going to be helped or harmed by the Olympics. The American, Russian, Australian, German or French governments weren't impacted by hosting the Olympics. THe only ones to suffer, as usual, will be the athletes. And why punish them? It's not like they had control over where they'd be competing.

Besides the politics, the Games will bring an awful lot of hard currency into China.

As it does with any country that hosts. Because you disagree with their politics, they have no right to try to recoup everything they've spent in preparation? Not that they will, mind you. I recall reading something about how much debt was incurred with the Athens games, and Sydney as well. I guess stadiums don't come cheap, no matter how much US steel you buy. :D

Whatever.... the IOC made their decision and anyone training for the Games knew it would be controversial. So the sad tale of all the hard work being squandered just doesn't cut it with me.

You're making it sound like the athletes should have just downed tools and stopped training, as soon as the venue was announced. And when the venue was announced, no one was talking boycott. So they're supposed to be clairvoyant and just know that one was in the offing? Come on! :rolleyes:

But don't worry. W won't do anything to piss off the world's fastest growing consumer of petroleum, especially in an election year. Coincidence? hmmmmmm...

Oh, like that's news? W has had a brown stain on his nose from the behinds of the oil folk for a lot of years now. Olympics aren't going to change that, one way or another.

[Foxtrot's]

You are all entitled to your opinions, but some of them are obviously hot air coming from people on the very fringes of the sports movements. I have not the energy to try to change minds that are already made up, but to expect athletes, who already sacrifice so much for the sports they love to make a bigger sacrifice, is as small minded as I have ever heard. My strong advice to those who favour a boycott is to go into the streets yourselves, go to the demonstrations and put yourselves at risk, get arrested, stand up in China, send your money to organizations that fight human rights, join up and do something yourselves. Show some courage. "Im not turning on my tv during the Olympics" - give me a break. A boycott would achieve nothing except hurt people who have no dog in the fight. More can be achieved by striving to stick to the Olympic ideals, no matter how cynical some have become. Nobody likes the human rights records of lots of countries, and from the outside, the US is not held in the highest regard either. Tibet situation (along with many other countries) is a disgrace, but it is not the fault of the Olympic athletes.

[J Swan]

Thank you very much for that link.
:)

:yes:
I totally agree! If you want to boycott something, think about what your buying. Look at the label and try to buy American. Here is a great website that can help:

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/index.php

[ridgeback]

I see both sides but the bottom line is Bush is never going to boycott the olympics.. Some of us do try and make a difference.. I try not to buy things made in China but sadly that is almost impossible:( I sponsor a child in Zambia, a women in the Congo, volunteer for Save Darfur and the ONE organization..I think who ever said we need to incourgage the IOC to make better decisions in the future is correct..

[kansasgal]

Those who are supporting a boycott might want to start at home and find out how many items you own which were produced in China. You might be surprised.


Yes, I agree with everything about China's political history in Tibet, and Darfur being terrible. But when it comes to the pollution, I believe that much of it is our fault.
If you want to boycott China, you might start with refusing to buy anything made there.

Um, I believe that now includes Ariat boots.

And, just curious, isn't Nike made in China now, too?

Esp. if you shop at any discount store, avoiding Chinese goods is nearly impossible.

I have conflicted feelings about the whole situation.

[gabriellemg]

I don't think we should boycott, but I don't think we should walk in with open arms ignoring their human rights and animal welfare problems.
To obtain the Olympics, the Chinese promised human rights reform and all types of environmental reform which they seem to have ignored when they received the bid.

I usually am glued to the TV watching the Olympics and purchase Olympic merchandise. I still have my Eagle stuffed animal from Los Angeles. This year I will cut down my viewing considerably, not purchase any Olympic merchandise, and write my Congressman about human rights and animal welfare issues in China.

It's not much of a protest, but it is what I will do.

GMG
Texas

[quiet5]

(snip)
If you want to boycott China, you might start with refusing to buy anything made there.

Um, I believe that now includes Ariat boots.

And, just curious, isn't Nike made in China now, too?

Esp. if you shop at any discount store, avoiding Chinese goods is nearly impossible.

I have conflicted feelings about the whole situation.

There are a TON of goods produced in China--that's really the Bread & Butter of their economic base--producing goods cheap enough for the insatiable appetite of the American Consumer.

China replaced America as the world's biggest producer of low-cost consumer goods primarily due to its CHEAP LABOR...

The only way to change that imbalance is to stop buying goods produced in China. If only there were a way to wean Americans off their expectation for a never-ending supply of cheap goods.

You CAN do it--avoid buying Chinese produced goods--it's not easy OR cheap, however, and that puts off a whole enormous segment of the average American consumer who is currently struggling to stay afloat.

But it can be done.

You may not be able to rid your home of all things produced in China (there are elements to every computer that are produced in China or the enormous bevy of food products produced for the US market--see how difficult that last one is here: http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/07/26/china.products/index.html), but you can start with the big and most obvious products...the 6 dollar shirt from Wal Mart or Target...that sort of thing.

Another obvious choice: buy your food from local producers and do not consume packaged goods--possible? Yes. Easy, especially for families? No.

None of this is cheap or easy.

That's what the Chinese exploited: the American demand for cheap and easy goods.

Ultimately, what one buys is a personal choice with political consequences.
JMHO

[nhwr]

I don't think anyone is debating your point. It's just that boycotting the Games isn't going to change how China treats her people,..............or anyone else's. They haven't changed in about four thousand years; I seriously doubt that a few countries, however large or small, who choose not to send athletes to the Games, are going to have any impact whatsoever. Any more than the US had on Russia, over Afghanistan in 1980. Nothing changed then, except our athletes were royally screwed by our own government. Nice.This is just incorrect. China hasn't been the same for 4000 years. It has changed a lot over time. To say that the world's response to the Olympics has no impact is just uninformed. Carter's actions in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan laid the foundation for the fall of the Soviets. But it does make one sleep better at night to believe that our choices have no impact. Besides it is about our character as a nation, not theirs.No. They are two different things. The Chinese government isn't going to be helped or harmed by the Olympics. The American, Russian, Indian, German or French governments weren't impacted by hosting the Olympics. THe only ones to suffer, as usual, will be the athletes. And why punish them? It's not like they had control over where they'd be competing.
You haven't lived in a city or a region that has hosted the Games. The host of the Olympics doesn't loose money. There wouldn't be any competition to host them if they did. And suffering is a relative term. Athletes who trained but didn't go would disappointed, extremely so. But that isn't "suffering" like the families of political prisoners in China experience, the orphanages full of girls there, those who are executed, the non Muslim population of Darfur or the Tibetan people are experiencing. One needn't be clairvoyant to know that these things have been a problem in China. It has be an issue since China was opened. The athletes can hardly claim to be surprised about the political concerns of these games. It isn't punishment, it was a risk.

I don't expect to change China. I just don't want to support their perspective or even look the other way. By participating in the Olympics that is exactly what we as a country are doing.

It isn't what the Chinese are doing. It is about what we are doing. You can rationalize it all you want. But it is still lipstick on a pig.

Don't worry, though. There isn't much threat of the Bush administration coming down on the right side of this issue :(

[greygirls]

My gawd, how does one avoid buying anything made in China? I just picked up my new sweater and the label says "Hong Kong" but it wasn't "cheap"!!! It was $63 on sale! Lord knows, Ariats haven't gotten cheaper either. I thought "everything" was coming from China now.

That said, I "was" all for an Olympic boycott, but I've changed my mind, considering (1) the athletes will suffer, and (2) it won't change China one iota. But I must admit, I was pleasantly surprised when the protests began in Paris and then continued in SF (except for the violence against the torch runner, which was deplorable). I especially loved the Golden Gate bridge. I raised my fist and thought, "Yeah, you go! Thank goodness the world hasn't forgotten." Hey, I grew up in the 60s.

So at this point, I think we should go to the Olympics and keep on protesting on the behalf of Tibet, Darfur, and human and animal rights. Every time a TV camera pans the Olympic audience, whether it be in the streets or stands, we should see the signs from all nations (FREE TIBET, etc, etc.). Do you suppose the Chinese would violently put down a protest of Olympic viewing tourists with the whole world looking on?

As a small protest, I probably won't watch the Olympics on TV this time, except for the equestrian events. It ought to be a rip watching the Chinese in eventing and dressage (smile). But I do feel bad for the horses.

And don't bother flamimg me--I'm old (a boomer) and "flame-proof." And yes I have a horse and event.
Thank you, it was a great thread.

[beeblebrox]

human rights violations are a atrocity, by all mean we should support china...

NOT

[Geneva]

I could never support boycotting the Olympics without an accompanying economic boycott. And that's never going to happen. If the Olympics were just an additional element of an already existing economic boycott, it would be different. But I could support boycotting the opening ceremonies, even though I know that's a really special experience for the athletes. If a bunch of countries did it, I think it sends a worthwhile message: We support and value our athletes and you aren't worth ruining their opportunity over, but here's what we really think. But I can also see how some people would think that's just a silly half-baked non-committal cop-out.:D

[bip]

My gawd, how does one avoid buying anything made in China? I just picked up my new sweater and the label says "Hong Kong" but it wasn't "cheap"!!! It was $63 on sale! Lord knows, Ariats haven't gotten cheaper either. I thought "everything" was coming from China now.

This got me thinking, so I started looking at things on my desk:
TI calculator, China
Swingline stapler, China
Durasharp scissors, USA
Whiteout, Thailand
Universal staples, Mexico
Plantonics headset, Mexico
Bizphone, Malaysia
Speakers, China
Kensington paper tray, Taiwan
Gluestick, China
Clipboard, USA
Deodorant, Philippines

Since I don't buy the stuff at my office, I don't know how many of those things had non-China substitutes.

The scary part is that none of my personal products (hand lotions, chapsticks, vitamins, breath fresheners, except the deodorant) said where they were made! Those are the things I MOST care about, considering the contamination problems of late.

[greygirls]

Hey guys, the athletes (Mark Todd) are speaking up:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4443268a26500.html

Go to the Mark Todd thread on Eventing.

Love it!

[slc2]

To try to convince someone that they SHOULD or SHOULDN'T boycott the olympics or chinese products is like insisting we all should have the same values...and we don't. Each person has to find their own way in this one.

[Foxtrot's]

But they should know whereof they speak.

[riverbell93]

To try to convince someone that they SHOULD or SHOULDN'T boycott the olympics or chinese products is like insisting we all should have the same values...

But it sure beats the more common internet conversational gambit of claiming the moral high ground, throwing all attempts at a comprehensible argument out the window and shrieking "You're a crazy, souless, evil, rotten Nazi/racist/rapist/pedophile/puppy-beater if you disagre with me." :D Not that you did this, slc, just saying there are worse things than prostelytizers out there.

Personally, I don't care if others agree with me. I just think China's slithering filth and both it and the IOC richly deserve the enormous humiliation of having the insane choice of Beijing fail spectacularly. I have no idea if a boycott would be a good idea, but I know that the fact that it would hurt the athletes is not sufficient reason to reject it.

[ESG]

This is just incorrect. China hasn't been the same for 4000 years. It has changed a lot over time. To say that the world's response to the Olympics has no impact is just uninformed.


Okay, fine. GIve me one example of how hosting an Olympic games has
impacted the way a country governs its people.

Carter's actions in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan laid the foundation for the fall of the Soviets.

Now who's being incorrect? Mr. Carter was an amazingly ingratiating man, but the least effective President we've ever had. And you're crediting him with the downfall of the Soviet Union? :lol:

But it does make one sleep better at night to believe that our choices have no impact.

I, for one, do believe it. With our government spending billions and billions with the Chinese, do you really think it's going to matter if you, all your friends and everyone on these boards, boycott Chinese products? Think again. But if it makes you feel better to do that, go ahead. Me, I'll tend to my own economic situation by buying what I can afford, not what others consider "politically correct".

Besides it is about our character as a nation, not theirs.

Again, no. You're making it sound like American citizens are responsible for the actions of the Chinese government, if we buy Chinese products. Hell, we can't be responsible for our own government's actions, much less anyone else's. You're giving Americans far too much credit for political influence.

You haven't lived in a city or a region that has hosted the Games. The host of the Olympics doesn't loose money.

I'd be talking to the people in Athens and Sydney before I went much further down that particular road. :winkgrin:

There wouldn't be any competition to host them if they did.

See above.

And suffering is a relative term. Athletes who trained but didn't go would disappointed, extremely so. But that isn't "suffering" like the families of political prisoners in China experience, the orphanages full of girls there, those who are executed, the non Muslim population of Darfur or the Tibetan people are experiencing. One needn't be clairvoyant to know that these things have been a problem in China. It has be an issue since China was opened. The athletes can hardly claim to be surprised about the political concerns of these games. It isn't punishment, it was a risk.

And so, making our athletes give up years of training and preparation is going to change what's happening in China, Tibet and Darfur?

Now who's being naive?

I don't expect to change China. I just don't want to support their perspective or even look the other way. By participating in the Olympics that is exactly what we as a country are doing.

NO. We're allowing our athletes to participate in a competition.

It isn't what the Chinese are doing. It is about what we are doing. You can rationalize it all you want. But it is still lipstick on a pig.

I'm not "rationalizing" anything. I'm saying that no matter whether we send athletes to the Games or not, it's not going to change China's government one single iota. IF we could talk our President and foreign policy departments into bringing economic pressure to bear on China, that might have an effect. My suggestion would be to complain to them, rather than depriving our athletes of what they've earned. The athletes can't change anything - they're just athletes. If you want change, write your Congressman, or the President. You're putting responsibility on the wrong people.

Don't worry, though. There isn't much threat of the Bush administration coming down on the right side of this issue :(

Actually, I don't see this issue as having a "right" side. Mine isn't "right" by your standards, and yours isn't "right" by mine. Maybe even some of the athletes aren't thrilled with the prospect of having to compete in Beijing. But I don't see them (Americans, anyway) dropping out of the Games because of political scruples.

[ESG]

Hey guys, the athletes (Mark Todd) are speaking up:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4443268a26500.html

Go to the Mark Todd thread on Eventing.

Love it!

Um, yeah. Read what he says.


"The veteran competitor participated in the New Zealand Olympic team's Moscow boycott of 1980, but said he had been given no choice, and did not believe the boycott had been successful.

'I wish I could remember what that boycott was even about.' he said."

'Nuff said, I think. :cool:

[PaintHorseHunterFreak]

BOYCOTT BOYCOTT BOYCOTT!!!

i could go on for hours as to why...

[MaresNest]

How does a democratic government know to take action? Because the people call for it. We can't control how much our government has already spent on Chinese goods, but we do have the power to demonstrate. And, by demonstrating, we show our government that we want change. By boycotting, we would be making the statement that we don't approve of China's behavior and do not want to help them continue it by buying their products or attending/spending money on their Games. Demonstration does not effect change directly in most cases. Demonstration affects leaders, and leaders effect change. In a democracy, there frequently has to be a groundswell of public support in order for things to get done.

And, in this case, China is actually eager to be accepted by the modern world. A boycott might actually mean something to them, more so than to the Soviets, in any case. But, of course, there's no guarantee that anything would change based on a boycott. And the athletes would be the ones who bore the burden of sacrifice. But, realistically, it's the primary option that's available to them. Yes, they are just athletes. They can't pass laws or make economic policies. What they can do is make a statement. And a big one. One that would be far more likely to affect leaders in this country than just a bunch of nobodies like us boycotting what Chinese products we can. So, if athletes are as appalled by China's behavior and policies as we little people are, a boycott is the most powerful tool in their hands.

I think you could also make the case, though, that change is best made from the inside. In that case, the strategy would be to continue to engage China and try to draw them more into the international community, where they would be more beholden to international human rights laws and environmental policies. 'Catching flies with honey', as it were. I really don't know what such a strategy would look like in a practical sense, but it's something I hear bandied about by politicians sometimes.

There's a lot of room for debate on this issue, clearly.

[Foxtrot's]

Since this is an issue stemming from the Tibet occupation, perhaps those so keen to demonstrate and boycott shold listen to the Dalai Lama himselt and abide by his wishes: To demonstrate peacefully is the right of people living in democracies. He does not suggest a boycott, in fact, says NOT to boycott China. A woman in Victoria who has worked for 45 years on behalf of Tibet says that a boycott would take the spotlight off China, and that to effect change, we need the spotlight on China. She feels the Olympic games is a medium to promote friendship. That's her perspective. Those are people at the forefront.

[nhwr]

Now who's being incorrect? Mr. Carter was an amazingly ingratiating man, but the least effective President we've ever had. And you're crediting him with the downfall of the Soviet Union? :lol:Yep, review your history. Besides the boycott of the Moscow Olympics, Carter took other actions to protest the Soviets invasion of Afghanistan. The breakup of the Soviet Union began because the Soviets lost control of Poland. This happened primarily because of Lek Walensa and the Solidarity movement. The cause of the Solidarity movement was an attempted strike on the part of Polish shipyard workers in response to rapidly rising food costs (primarily bread) in Poland. Why did this happen? Carter embargoed wheat sales to the Soviet Union. Regan could never have called on Gorby to tear down that wall if Carter had weakened them first.I, for one, do believe it. With our government spending billions and billions with the Chinese, do you really think it's going to matter if you, all your friends and everyone on these boards, boycott Chinese products? Think again. But if it makes you feel better to do that, go ahead. Me, I'll tend to my own economic situation by buying what I can afford, not what others consider "politically correct".This is just the attitude that plays in to the Chinese hand. Our government isn't spending billions and billions with the Chinese, they are borrowing billions and billions from them. It is American businesses and consumers who are spending billions and billions with little regard for anything but price. Cheap goods sold for less than they cost to produce without concern for quality, safety standards or international intellectual property laws. If the Chinese workers can't live on what they are paid, there is always another to take their place. If a product is recalled or there is some scandal, some mid-level patsy is tried and executed. But it's all good if we can shop at WalMart. You're making it sound like American citizens are responsible for the actions of the Chinese government, if we buy Chinese products. Hell, we can't be responsible for our own government's actions, much less anyone else's. You're giving Americans far too much credit for political influence.
As I have said repeatedly, it is about our actions, not theirs. I concede we have little ability to influence the Chinese government, just as we have little ability to influence what any government does. But that doesn't mean we should appease them or come to their little tea party.
I'd be talking to the people in Athens and Sydney before I went much further down that particular road. :winkgrin:I actually have spoken to people in Australia about it and though the government lost money because of mismanagement and corruption the average business owner did quite well as a result of the Games.And so, making our athletes give up years of training and preparation is going to change what's happening in China, Tibet and Darfur?

Now who's being naive?
The athletes won't be giving up years of training and preparation. They will go back to the NBA, preparing for the next soccer World Cup or WEG. Since the change is requiring amateur status was implemented, this is one (granted large) event on their dance card, not one moment in time. And again it is about our character, not theirs. I'm not "rationalizing" anything. I'm saying that no matter whether we send athletes to the Games or not, it's not going to change China's government one single iota. IF we could talk our President and foreign policy departments into bringing economic pressure to bear on China, that might have an effect. My suggestion would be to complain to them, rather than depriving our athletes of what they've earned. The athletes can't change anything - they're just athletes. If you want change, write your Congressman, or the President. You're putting responsibility on the wrong people.
Actually a boycott of the Games in a socialist state could put a significant amount of economic pressure on the host country. And I am not putting the responsibility on the athletes, I think the US government should make it an official boycott. Heck it looks like even Ben-ki Moon is going to skip them.Actually, I don't see this issue as having a "right" side. Mine isn't "right" by your standards, and yours isn't "right" by mine. Maybe even some of the athletes aren't thrilled with the prospect of having to compete in Beijing. But I don't see them (Americans, anyway) dropping out of the Games because of political scruples.It is simply ridiculous to speak of the "suffering" of athletes, a group leisure activity professionals, and political prisoners in China and Tibet or refugees in Darfur in the same sentence. And Mark Todd's comments just prove it. He comes off as a self centered idiot. It was so terrible but he can't remember the details. And now he says - if you just let me ride, I'll protest :rolleyes: I have 3 close friends who were to compete in Moscow. They weren't happy but they all know why they didn't go.

It is not just about cheap goods and bottomless consumerism, Tibet, Darfur, human rights or the "suffering" of athletes. It is about the future. Either you get it or you don't.

[Bogey2]

What I find funny about those of you who are wanting a boycott is that you are not giving anything up...yet you ask the athletes to give up a life long dream. Call me when you give up all that you have worked for to make a better life for political prisoners in China and Tibet or refugees.

We can all do our thing for the cause....but I would not suggest that one of you give up your lifestyle or your dream for it.

[greygirls]

ESG: If you read my earlier post, you will see that for the Olympics, I'm for "protest" not "boycott." I totally believe in kicking up a sand and sending a message. Todd also said,

"I think you could probably do more while you were there in a peaceful sort of protest," he said.

Asked if he would consider carrying out such a protest, the five-time Olympic medallist said: "Absolutely. I think athletes in general would be obliged to do something like that."

Of course, it's up to the individual athletes and any directives they may have received from their country as to their own involvement, but everyone else, Olympic spectators especially, should keep the protest alive in whatever way they feel is appropriate. And because of the world TV and Internet coverage, I'm sure many will.

[MaresNest]

Bogey, What do you suggest that non-Olympic athletes give up? Those of us posting in this thread have already, it seems, given up products made in China. What else is at our disposal to give up?

I think that things are getting a little out of perspective here... However grand, the 2008 Olympic Games is one event. There are World Cups, championships, and international competitions all over the world every year. There are other Olympics every 4 years. The 2008 Olympics is a big deal, but it is not everything. Also, choosing to boycott is not at all the same as not qualifying. Choosing to boycott says nothing about an athlete's physical prowess or skill in his/her sport, but it says quite a lot about an athlete's conscience.

And, because sports are, by definition, leisure activities, the old adage that the journey is more important than the destination is even more true than usual. Missing an Olympics doesn't change the fact that the athletes have spent years working to the pinnacle of a sport that they love. Nothing can take that away from them. The Olympics is a great thing, but only because it is a marker of the culmination of all those years of work. The greatest soccer player in the world is still the greatest soccer player in the world, with or without the medal. And, given how many other big sporting events there are, the greatest soccer player in the world is probably even recognized as the greatest soccer player in the world, irrespective of the Olympics. I'll say it again: The Olympics is a great thing, but only because it is a marker of the culmination of all those years of work.

And, in the face of all the criticism we have been aiming at the Chinese, I think we Americans deserve a bit ourselves. I think that we are ridiculously selfish about 'dreams' and 'lifestyles.' Don't get me wrong: I think dreams are important. But I think taking care of each other is more important. Sometimes the right thing to do is put your own dream aside and take care of someone else. And when 'taking care of someone else' means helping to gain basic human rights for someone, the choice should be clear. But instead, our nation is swept with a ridiculous self help craze, filled with makeovers and massages and self pampering, because our well-fed, well-clothed, climate-controlled, Constitution-protected lives are sooo stressful. :rolleyes:

As I have said before, a boycott is a powerful and obvious tool held in the hands of the athletes. It's their decision whether or not to use it, but I would be proud of them if they did. On the other hand, I would be equally proud if they, or the government, for that matter, came up with some other equally strong statement against China's actions. It's not that I think we must boycott. I just think that we need to be doing something to effect change. Evil exists because good men and women do nothing. A boycott is an obvious option, but it is not necessarily the only option.

[Coreene]

In the late 19th century, the US did the same thing to what was then the kingdom of Hawaii. And then, of course, I am sure that many people in Iraq with family members killed because we had to go storming in there will say the same thing re the pot calling the kettle black.

[Bogey2]

Bogey, What do you suggest that non-Olympic athletes give up? Those of us posting in this thread have already, it seems, given up products made in China. What else is at our disposal to give up?

I want you to give up what you are suggesting they do...something that you have worked hard for most of your life. Maybe your kids college fund, your best horse, your house, your car...whatever you worked hard for ...give it up and send the money to "the cause".

[akor]

The health issues for the equine athletes is more an issue for me.

I know how hard the earlier boycott was on the athletes, so it's hard for me to say boycott. But, in my heart, I think I would like to see it.

[Eclectic Horseman]

The Olympics should go ON!

If I were ever so fortunate as to be able to compete, I would be wearing the Tibetan flag on my sleeve. Probably get thrown in a Chinese prison---BUT THE WHOLE WORLD WOULD BE WATCHING!

I just heard that the IOC President has banned political displays at the games. I'm old enough to remember back when the black athletes raised their fists in the air as a symbol of "black power." One more thing to draw attention to the struggle for civil rights. I think that the IOC is wrong for banning free speech at the games! :mad:

[grayarabpony]

Choosing China was idiotic, as was choosing Russia back in the '80's, but it's done now, and boycotting the Games just ruins the Games.

[oldschool]

I agree with grayarabpony, What's done is done. Mark Todd's embarassingly ignorant quote does nothing to help the pro-boycott side. As to the air quality and general conditions, Atlanta was no picnic, neither was Denver etc.,. There will always be something to protest. Don't worry, liberals and bleeding hearts. But there happen to be athletes who have worked their whole lives for this day. Sure, China was a lame choice. The world will always be a cruel, hard place for the less fortunate. It's been that way for thousands of years. Do what your heart tells you on your own time and $$$ but penalizing athletes during the one thing that brings this crazy world together is not the answer.

[MaresNest]

I want you to give up what you are suggesting they do...something that you have worked hard for most of your life. Maybe your kids college fund, your best horse, your house, your car...whatever you worked hard for ...give it up and send the money to "the cause".

I think that's apples to oranges. A boycott would be a form of large scale, non-violent demonstration, while one person giving up a college fund, horse, house, or car would not make anything remotely like the same statement. It would just mean one less college educated person in the world, one more horse at risk of falling into bad hands, on more homeless person, or one more person without a car. Even a group of people making those kinds of sacrifices is not the same as the athletes doing something collectively because money is really not the problem with China. Disregard for human rights/the environment/animal welfare is the problem with China. What's needed is a values adjustment, not money.

I have repeatedly said that the athletes would bear the burden of a boycott. That point isn't in contest. The point that is in contest is how the athletes might best use their collective power to make a statement about China's behavior. I think there are multiple options available to them, with the boycott being certainly the most obvious and possibly the most powerful.


If I were ever so fortunate as to be able to compete, I would be wearing the Tibetan flag on my sleeve. Probably get thrown in a Chinese prison---BUT THE WHOLE WORLD WOULD BE WATCHING!

This would be another form of high profile, non-violent demonstration, and is certainly another option available to the athletes. I would hope that, in the absence of a boycott, a lot of athletes will choose to do this kind of thing.

[nhwr]

There will be zero tolerance for any kind of protest.Athletes who display Tibetan flags at Olympic venues — including in their own rooms — could be expelled from this summer’s Games in Beijing under anti-propaganda rules. Jacques Rogge, the president of the International Olympic Committee (http://www.olympic.org/uk/index_uk.asp) (IOC), said. He accompanied those comments with an admission that the Games were in “crisis” after pro-Tibet protests engulfed the Olympic torch relay.
Mr Rogge’s call for Beijing to abide by its promise to address human rights was given short shrift by Beijing, which bluntly told him to keep politics out of the Games.
So those of you who think politics should be kept out of the Games have some company.

[Bogey2]

I think that's apples to oranges. A boycott would be a form of large scale, non-violent demonstration, while one person giving up a college fund, horse, house, or car would not make anything remotely like the same statement.

that's easy for you to say, you have not qualified. I am not talking about the economics of ONE person, I am talking about giving up something you worked hard to achieve to make a political statement. When have you had to do that? So, nhwr, what are you going to sacrafice?

[MaresNest]

.

that's easy for you to say, you have not qualified. I am not talking about the economics of ONE person, I am talking about giving up something you worked hard to achieve to make a political statement. When have you had to do that?

Yes, it is easy for me to say because I haven't qualified. I said that here:


1.) It is easy to support something that costs me nothing but a thought and some typing time. The fact that it's easy doesn't make it wrong or selfish, though.


and here:


As I have said before, a boycott is a powerful and obvious tool held in the hands of the athletes. It's their decision whether or not to use it, but I would be proud of them if they did.

and here:

And the athletes would be the ones who bore the burden of sacrifice. But, realistically, it's the primary option that's available to them.

and here:


I have repeatedly said that the athletes would bear the burden of a boycott. That point isn't in contest.


I use all these quotes not to be obnoxious or imply that you should have scrutinized every post I made on this topic before replying. I am just trying to get across the point that, while other people who would support a boycott might not feel the same way, I do understand that the burden of a boycott would be borne by others, and not by myself. And so, while I still think it's right, and while it is what I would do if I were in the athletes' position, I am not trying to force a boycott onto anyone. I just think it's important to make some kind of statement. Change doesn't happen if everyone looks the other way.

A boycott is one way to make a statement. The athletes have, for a brief moment in history, the chance to SAY SOMETHING about China's behavior... to make an impact on the larger world... to help change things for the better. But if the athletes/USOC or US government can come up with a better way to make that statement than boycotting, then I'd be all for it. On matters as serious as Tibet and Darfur, though, I think that there is a moral imperative for us not to stand idly by.

And you're right that I've never had to give up something that I'd worked on for years in order to make a political statement. But, as I have said, the Olympics are a marker of years of time and energy put into sports that the athletes love. Nothing can take that time away from them. No one can sully what they have accomplished. And there will be other Olympics. And there are other major competitions. My point is not that we must boycott, but rather that I believe it wouldn't be the travesty that some people seem to think.

I also, personally, find it a little sickening that human rights are still a matter of politics. I cringe every time someone says that the boycott would be a political statement. How sad that, 257 years after the Declaration of Independence, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are still political issues in some places in the world. I will live in the real world, though, and accept that that's the case. I only mention it because I hope that at some point in my lifetime things will change. I don't think the world will ever be Utopic. I think there will always be wars and famines and disease and crime. But I hope that in my lifetime we can conquer this issue of governments trampling basic human rights. And I think if we do, we'll have made big progress on some of those other issues, as well.

[nhwr]

Boy, Bogey2 I guess I have touched a nerve.

I am politically active and have been all my life. But I hardly think it is necessary or appropriate to list my interests and accomplishments here. The suggestion that someone must sacrifice something to hold and express an opinion is just silly.

But I will answer your question this way. I believe that when the IOC elected to award the Games to China in 2001 and raised the issue of the human rights concerns, they made the Games political. Anyone who was interested in competing at these Games should surely have been aware of this, yet they chose to give it a shot anyway. There seems to be some sort of romantic notion that the athletes are amateurs pursuing a lifelong dream. Maybe we have all been watching too many VISA commercials. I don't buy it. The Olympics have become a business. For the most part, the American participants are elite college athletes or professionals. If there were to be a boycott then they took a chance that did pan out. This has happened to virtually everyone in their professional career. And it certainly wouldn't a foreign idea to those who live in a competitive environment. When it happens it is disappointing but not unusual.

Regardless of my opinion, it is unlikely that the US will boycott the Games.

But that doesn't make it right.

[ESG]

What I find funny about those of you who are wanting a boycott is that you are not giving anything up...yet you ask the athletes to give up a life long dream. Call me when you give up all that you have worked for to make a better life for political prisoners in China and Tibet or refugees.

Exactly. :yes:

We can all do our thing for the cause....but I would not suggest that one of you give up your lifestyle or your dream for it.

:yes::yes::yes:

[ESG]

It makes as much sense to make athletes responsible for politicians' decisions, as it would to make politicians responsible for athletes' decisions. The two should be mutually exclusive, since neither has any experience in the other's parlance. The Games should not be an exception.

Carry on. :cool:

[slc2]

Why is it that there is so much argument because someone has their own way of looking at this? Why can't they just explain how they feel about it and why, and be left alone? Why are some so determined to cut down those who have a different idea, or ridicule that idea?

I feel that NO ONE has to be attacked for taking either side in this issue. NO ONE should be given little digs or innuendos or more blatant questioning of their private life, intelligence, motivation or sincerity.

BOTH positions, either for or against boycott, are VALID. BOTH positions probably also change NOTHING. Read 'Will the Boat Sink the Water' if you think it's an easy call.

Despite a rabidly pro-Tibet stance and very strong passion about the plight of the poor in China and other countries of the world, I have very little confidence that a boycott of an international sporting event would provide any direct or immediate help to these people - or long term help.

No, I don't want politics in sport, but it is there. And it is there to stay.

Yes the Olympics are 'not like they used to be'. They used to be held in Western countries, and only Western countries participated. They started out with 6, 7 countries involved. The countries were all relatively similar, close together, and took place in only a handful of locations.

They are also about money and professions. The hopeful who misses the Olympics due to a boycott will not get the same sort of support in his professional future, even if he wins the world championships of his sport many times over. The endorsements as well as the customers that result from an Olympic win are very, very different. It ISN'T just about 'preparation and sacrifice', it's about professional success. We can't escape that. The Olympics is no longer for 'amateur athletes', and in this day and age, it's doubtful it would survive if the athletes were amateurs!

I'm often afraid protesting and boycotts only help the protesters to feel righteous. But I don't know, and I sure hope not.

On the other side, I agree that the Chinese government views the Olympics as a chance to show the world how capable they are, and how advanced, and that that is crucial to them. What happens if they fail to show that? I'll tell you what happens. The poor people of China suffer even MORE - not less.

Some of the shock people express at the cleanup before the games was expressed neatly by my friend who laughed and said, 'So, the way the third world has been for hundreds and thousands of years upsets you, but only during an Olympic year?'

There are many sides to this, and no real airtight sure answers - and I don''t think anyone needs to be self righteous that their position is better or more 'holy' than someone else's, because neither position probably changes a damned thing, and we have no real idea how this will turn out on the world stage, or what will help and what won't.

[egontoast]

There are many sides to this, and no real airtight sure answers - and I don''t think anyone needs to be self righteous that their position is better or more 'holy' than someone else's, because neither position probably changes a damned thing, and we have no real idea how this will turn out on the world stage, or what will help and what won't.

Yes. Seriously, you should try to be less self righteous, slc, and allow people to form and express their own opinions. No need to slap every one down because they don't agree with your fuzzy non opinion.:)

[ridgeback]

There are many sides to this, and no real airtight sure answers - and I don''t think anyone needs to be self righteous that their position is better or more 'holy' than someone else's, because neither position probably changes a damned thing, and we have no real idea how this will turn out on the world stage, or what will hhelp and what won't.

Wow excellent post SLC!!! What has surprised me is I would have expected the self righteousness to come from the pro-boycott people but instead it's been just the opposite:eek:

[Dancinglite2]

There are many sides to this, and no real airtight sure answers - and I don''t think anyone needs to be self righteous that their position is better or more 'holy' than someone else's, because neither position probably changes a damned thing, and we have no real idea how this will turn out on the world stage, or what will help and what won't.

As long as there are people there will be opinions. Considering some of the political events that had been present when previous Olympics have been held such as the Israeli wrestling team disaster people have a right to be concerned both about the venue and the safety of the people and animals.Too bad Toronto didn't win that bid.

SLC for someone that has loooooooooooooooooong opinions on just about everything been everywhere including getting opinions from Mongolian farm workers if they heard of dressage or was that some other Asian place, ( it is hard to try keeping all the events and locations straight) why can't you be like any other normal person and simply express an opinion ( in less than 300 words) and simply move on.

My opinion.................. well if people want to make a difference then the pocketbook needs to be hit. To me there is no need to go after or condemn the athletes but rather the TV coverage and the best way, is for the networks to go dark on coverage or if they don't NO ONE watch or even turn any programs on that air it EVERYWHERE.

[MaresNest]

Why is it that there is so much argument because someone has their own way of looking at this? Why can't they just explain how they feel about it and why, and be left alone? Why are some so determined to cut down those who have a different idea, or ridicule that idea?

I feel that NO ONE has to be attacked for taking either side in this issue. NO ONE should be given little digs or innuendos or more blatant questioning of their private life, intelligence, motivation or sincerity.

BOTH positions, either for or against boycott, are VALID. BOTH positions probably also change NOTHING. Read 'Will the Boat Sink the Water' if you think it's an easy call.

Despite a rabidly pro-Tibet stance and very strong passion about the plight of the poor in China and other countries of the world, I have very little confidence that a boycott of an international sporting event would provide any direct or immediate help to these people - or long term help.

No, I don't want politics in sport, but it is there. And it is there to stay.

Yes the Olympics are 'not like they used to be'. They used to be held in Western countries, and only Western countries participated. They started out with 6, 7 countries involved. The countries were all relatively similar, close together, and took place in only a handful of locations.

They are also about money and professions. The hopeful who misses the Olympics due to a boycott will not get the same sort of support in his professional future, even if he wins the world championships of his sport many times over. The endorsements as well as the customers that result from an Olympic win are very, very different. It ISN'T just about 'preparation and sacrifice', it's about professional success. We can't escape that. The Olympics is no longer for 'amateur athletes', and in this day and age, it's doubtful it would survive if the athletes were amateurs!

I'm often afraid protesting and boycotts only help the protesters to feel righteous. But I don't know, and I sure hope not.

On the other side, I agree that the Chinese government views the Olympics as a chance to show the world how capable they are, and how advanced, and that that is crucial to them. What happens if they fail to show that? I'll tell you what happens. The poor people of China suffer even MORE - not less.

Some of the shock people express at the cleanup before the games was expressed neatly by my friend who laughed and said, 'So, the way the third world has been for hundreds and thousands of years upsets you, but only during an Olympic year?'

There are many sides to this, and no real airtight sure answers - and I don''t think anyone needs to be self righteous that their position is better or more 'holy' than someone else's, because neither position probably changes a damned thing, and we have no real idea how this will turn out on the world stage, or what will help and what won't.

Great, thoughtful post, SLC!

[nhwr]

It makes as much sense to make athletes responsible for politicians' decisions, as it would to make politicians responsible for athletes' decisions. The two should be mutually exclusive, since neither has any experience in the other's parlance. The Games should not be an exception.
:confused: The US government has the responsibility for regulating travel, commerce and politics globally for all its citizens, including athletes. I am not sure what their mode of speech has or should have to do with it.

slc, I can't respect your position. Our actions are either right or they aren't, they stand alone. What we chose may or may not effect what happens in other countries. But that is moral relativism. Many of those who don't support a boycott do admit that it was a mistake for the IOC to elect Bejing as the site of the 2008 games. But since the IOC gave the green light there is no other decision needed. I just don't agree. I think we have a responsibility here.

And the comparisons to the Moscow games aren't really relevant, IMO. The USSR hadn't invaded Afghanistan at the time the IOC selected Moscow as the site for the 1980 Olympics. That was in 1973? The grounds for the US boycott didn't exist until 1979. The issues with China were known when the IOC choose Bejing. That is why they extracted the promises regarding human rights (which China has failed to honor).

[ESG]

:confused: The US government has the responsibility for regulating travel, commerce and politics globally for all its citizens, including athletes. I am not sure what their mode of speech has or should have to do with it.

Only in that the politicians are, by forcing athletes to abstain from competing, voicing their opposition to the host country.

I could very probably have chosen a better word, but I do think you managed to get my meaning, anyway. ;) If not, let me put it as simply as possible.

No politician should be allowed to make decisions regarding athletic endeavors, any more than any athlete should be allowed to make decisions regarding political endeavors.

Hope this helps. :cool:

[grayarabpony]

Not buying anything made in China, or supporting the end of free trade -- that I can understand. Boycotting the Olympics won't help a thing.

[nhwr]

No politician should be allowed to make decisions regarding athletic endeavors, any more than any athlete should be allowed to make decisions regarding political endeavors.So there should be no laws regulating the use of steroids or other substances when used for athletic purposes, where athletes can train and travel? And athletes should not be allowed to run for office or vote? Athletes are a special class of citizens? I don't think so. These ideas are silly, but they are the logical extension of your comments. It is the purview of the US government to implement foreign policy as it see fit for good of its entire population. Not buying anything made in China, or supporting the end of free trade -- that I can understand.FYI; we don't have free trade with China. American companies do a lot of manufacturing in China and we purchase a lot of goods from them. But we export virtually nothing to them. The Chinese won't allow it.

[Touchstone Farm]

No, we shouldn't boycott the Olympics. Look at all the attention the Olympics has brought to the situation in China. Perhaps it will help. (But I AM an idealist.)

[ESG]

So there should be no laws regulating the use of steroids or other substances when used for athletic purposes, where athletes can train and travel? And athletes should not be allowed to run for office or vote? Athletes are a special class of citizens? I don't think so.

I don't either. But then, you're not arguing the point, are you? Going off on an irrelevant tangent doesn't strengthen your argument.

These ideas are silly, but they are the logical extension of your comments.

"Logical", according to whom? :confused: You've gotten completely off the subject, as well you know. Being deliberately obtuse doesn't win you points, either.

It is the purview of the US government to implement foreign policy as it see fit for good of its entire population.

Yes, it is. And if the US government had a problem with the location of the Games, it should have made an announcement to boycott immediately after they were awarded. Waiting until three months before they start is stupid, and completely unfair to the athletes.

[ridgeback]

I don't either. But then, you're not arguing the point, are you? Going off on an irrelevant tangent doesn't strengthen your argument.



"Logical", according to whom? :confused: You've gotten completely off the subject, as well you know. Being deliberately obtuse doesn't win you points, either.



Yes, it is. And if the US government had a problem with the location of the Games, it should have made an announcement to boycott immediately after they were awarded. Waiting until three months before they start is stupid, and completely unfair to the athletes.

Life isn't always fair!!!

[ec412]

Not buying anything made in China, or supporting the end of free trade -- that I can understand. Boycotting the Olympics won't help a thing.


If you want to boycott products from China you had better stay home, A good majority of companies manufacture in China because it is cheap. I will tell you first hand the products that my previous company started manufacturing there, after closing all US manufacturing plants and laying off all employees at those sites, had nothing but problems.

So- if sick- don't go get a rapid flu test, or strep test, 75% of products in the diagnostic field manufactured in China-IMA

You would have to boycott life to make an impact on China, but alas this is getting off topic- so sorry :cool:

I would have a lot of respect for any athlete that chose not to compete based on principle, but I will not disrespect them for fulfilling a life long dream.

[nhwr]

Come on ESG, hopefully you are smarter than this.

The IOC awarded the Games to Bejing but requested changes on China's part. China has failed to meet these requirements. So were these consideration important or not? The IOC thought they were. You conceded early in this discussion that Bejing was a poor choice. It seems like the only objection you have is the restriction on athletes. Many other industries, particularly technology, have restrictions on trade with China. It may impact the potential return of years of investment and development, but that is how it is. It is accepted without whining. No claims that the people in these industries are different somehow, that their dreams are being crushed :rolleyes: We just can't muster the same level on sympathy for these people because major networks don't run sympathetic profiles of them. But hey you are free accept what the media spoon feeds the masses if you like.

Dealing with China has been this way since Nixon went there. And he probably never would have gone if he hadn't needed to distract the American public. Come to think of it, there are those who probably really appreciate the focus of world affairs being elsewhere right before the election. The longer and louder this discussion goes on the better they will like it.

[ESG]

Quite frankly, I don't give a shit about Nixon and his timeline, or why he went, or the consequences. That was thirty years ago - old news, spilt milk, pick your saying. And I also don't care about trade restrictions, or economics,............or the price of tea in China. ;) We're talking about athletics, and the Olympics, not what some crooked President did a generation ago.

I also don't see that this has anything to do with being "smarter" or dumb, or anything else. It is my opinion that our athletes should be allowed to compete - period. I don't think it's appropriate for politicians to use athletes to attempt to do the work that they can't accomplish for themselves. And if the IOC was naive/foolish/stupid enough to believe that China would actually deliver on promises to "reform", that's not the fault of our athletes, and they shouldn't be punished for it. Not that the Chinese government is going to change, one way or another. Or, as my favorite author likes to say, "A million red Chinese don't give a shit." 'Nuff said, I think. :D

You can call me stupid, or naive, or whatever else you like, but I think the athletes should go to Beijing, if they want to compete.

Carry on. :cool:

[slc2]

at least the grooms won't have to stay in FEMA trailers...

[ESG]

Even the Chinese wouldn't subject their citizens to FEMA! :eek:

[nhwr]

Yeah, FEMA is not doing too well.

Falun Gong is the only "breathing problem" the Chinese government is really concerned with.
This is what happens if you have it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/georgianne-nienaber/beijing-olympics-is-us-su_b_95934.html

[magdelene]

I have read the article over Falun Gong with interested eyes. It is very schocking. Why must these Olympics be in China??? The stories we are hearing is very bad.

[magdelene]

For more informations updates on the persecution of Falun Gong (Falun Dahr) people, go to <www.clearwisdom.net>. Very schocking.

[ESG]

nhwr, you can reference as many articles as you like, but the fact remains that the Games are in Beijing. Your protests, however well founded and well intentioned, are a day late and a dollar short. The Games will go on, with or without our athletes. China will continue to govern as it will, with or without our athletes. World leaders boycotting the opening ceremonies will not have an effect, except perhaps to give the IOC a wake up call to be more careful where they award the Games. And that doesn't seem to be your focus.

Your position actually amuses me quite a bit. If the Chinese government is indeed guilty of the atrocities you reference, against its own people, why would they give a tin shit about whether or not a group of athletes competes at their Games? After all, as you and others have pointed out, it's not like they take human rights (or opinions) very seriously, now do they? The IOC gave them their spotlight moment, and they'll be sure to show the very best face of China that they can. And American athletes, participating or not participating, won't change that.

Let the athletes be athletes and compete, as they choose. Don't make them into unwilling, unwitting politicians.

Oh, BTW - you never answered my question. Please give me one instance in which boycotting a Games has had an effect on the governing practices of the host country.

[Bogey2]

Your protests, however well founded and well intentioned, are a day late and a dollar short. The Games will go on, with or without our athletes. China will continue to govern as it will, with or without our athletes. World leaders boycotting the opening ceremonies will not have an effect, except perhaps to give the IOC a wake up call to be more careful where they award the Games. And that doesn't seem to be your focus.

right on sistah!

[ridgeback]

The WORLD should boycott these games!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ESG]

The WORLD should boycott these games!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, obviously you think so, or you wouldn't have started this thread. :p

[ridgeback]

Well, obviously you think so, or you wouldn't have started this thread. :p

ESG no where in my posts did I say yes the U.S. should boycott the olympics..BUT now that has changed.

No the thread was started with ASKING if the U.S. should boycott and after reading what every one had to say and doing some of my own reading I should have asked the question Should the WORLD boycott the olympics.. I now think they should..

[slc2]

how is ridiculing other opinions any different in spirit from china's human rights violations?

[ridgeback]

how is ridiculing other opinions any different in spirit from china's human rights violations?

Who are you addressing?

[nhwr]

I didn't initiate this thread. But I have participated in it, for sure. Beyond that, you have no idea what I have done to protest the Games and for how long I have been doing it it. It is not the kind of conversation one usually makes out of the blue between rolkur discussions. And frankly I wouldn't have expected a very sympathetic welcome for my position. In that I have been pleasantly surprised. I have admitted from the start that the US will participate. I just think it is wrong. You don't agree. That is what makes life interesting :)

As I have said repeatedly to me this issue isn't about changing China. It is about our character as a nation. Maybe that isn't as important as athletics to you. My priorities differ. Again, that is what makes life interesting.

BTW, I did answer your question quite awhile back, even though I don't think it is relevant to the argument. You should read more carefully :D

And slc, no one is ridiculing anyone here. But do you honestly think spirited disagreement is on par with the suppression of basic human right and trafficking in organs from prisoner for transplant?

[grayarabpony]

That is very true, we don't have free trade with China, but they do accept American services. China has permanent Normal Trade Relations with the US currently.

[Thomas_1]

I personally think it was a huge mistake to permit China to have the Olympic games in the first place.

However both British and USA politicians and Olympic federation officials were complicit in that decision.

NOTHING has changed since that selection. Their human rights record stunk then and it still stinks now. As such I think it was totally wrong that their bid was successful.

So though I personally would have preferred it if their bid for the games had been thrown out because of their human rights record, I think now that the selection has been made then it would be pretty bizarre to boycott it! In the past there's been boycotts of Olympic games and they're utterly and entirely ineffective. The games will continue no matter who boycotts them.

I sincerely hope though that just some of the protests taking place on the international torch marathon manage to filter their way across to China. China is clearly concerned about how they're seen on the world stage and it seems so far that they're not seen in a good light and its got to be very difficult for the Chinese government to totally censor the news with the torch relay proving to be as popular as a fart in a elevator!

[grayarabpony]

I have to admit I hate the cheap crap that comes out of China, and wish we hadn't signed on to trade relations with them. I also think those lenient laws that Reagan passed aiding big business need to be repealed.

[ESG]

I didn't initiate this thread. But I have participated in it, for sure. Beyond that, you have no idea what I have done to protest the Games and for how long I have been doing it it. It is not the kind of conversation one usually makes out of the blue between rolkur discussions. And frankly I wouldn't have expected a very sympathetic welcome for my position. In that I have been pleasantly surprised. I have admitted from the start that the US will participate. I just think it is wrong. You don't agree. That is what life interesting :)

Agreed.

As I have said repeatedly to me this issue isn't about changing China. It is about our character as a nation. Maybe that isn't as important as athletics to you. My priorities differ. Again, that is what makes life interesting.

This is the point on which I disagree. "Our character as a nation" has no bearing on the Games, one way or another. Our actions as American citizens, in our own country, don't have squat to do with the actions of the Chinese and their government. When you tell an athlete, "You can't compete in the Chinese Olympics because your presence represents a vote of confidence in their government.", they'll first look at you with incredulity, and then tell you to piss off and mind your own business. As well they should. Because they're not making political statements; they're doing their job. And depriving them of the opportunity of doing that job, will not only not have any bearing on "our character as a nation", but it won't effect any change in how China treats its people.

So, in effect, a boycott is an empty gesture that deprives people who have worked hard at "their jobs", the right to perform them. It's a waste - a wicked f(*&ing waste, and I abhor waste. I think you would see it a bit differently if, when you were ready to get your college degree, you were deprived of it because of some fatuous politician decided it was in his/her best interest that you not get it. The time, the effort, the expense - all down the tubes. And all because someone you don't know, and will likely never meet, made a decision about your life.

BTW, I did answer your question quite awhile back, even though I don't think it is relevant to the argument. You should read more carefully :D

I'm pretty direct, and so was looking for a direct answer. Guess I shouldn't have. May I have one, please? :)

And slc, no one is ridiculing anyone here. But do you honestly think spirited disagreement is on par with the suppression of basic human right and trafficking in organs from prisoner for transplant?

You have to forgive slc. She's had those drama llamas saddled up for a while, and is just itching for a chance to trot one out. :D

[ridgeback]

Agreed.



This is the point on which I disagree. "Our character as a nation" has no bearing on the Games, one way or another. Our actions as American citizens, in our own country, don't have squat to do with the actions of the Chinese and their government. When you tell an athlete, "You can't compete in the Chinese Olympics because your presence represents a vote of confidence in their government.", they'll first look at you with incredulity, and then tell you to piss off and mind your own business. As well they should. Because they're not making political statements; they're doing their job. And depriving them of the opportunity of doing that job, will not only not have any bearing on "our character as a nation", but it won't effect any change in how China treats its people.

So, in effect, a boycott is an empty gesture that deprives people who have worked hard at "their jobs", the right to perform them. It's a waste - a wicked f(*&ing waste, and I abhor waste. I think you would see it a bit differently if, when you were ready to get your college degree, you were deprived of it because of some fatuous politician decided it was in his/her best interest that you not get it. The time, the effort, the expense - all down the tubes. And all because someone you don't know, and will likely never meet, made a decision about your life.



I'm pretty direct, and so was looking for a direct answer. Guess I shouldn't have. May I have one, please? :)



You have to forgive slc. She's had those drama llamas saddled up for a while, and is just itching for a chance to trot one out. :D

You are entitled to your opinion as we all are.. No right and wrong only what is right for you or me. I for one would hope everyone would boycott the olympics my hope is not wrong nor is your opinion that a governement should not take this opportunity away from the athletes..

[Ghazzu]

how is ridiculing other opinions any different in spirit from china's human rights violations?

The same way telling someone they said something silly would be different from locking them in an empty stall in the barn and then forcing them to do the barn work without pay for 10 years.

I would offer to demonstrate the difference to you, but I don't have an empty stall.

[ESG]

I do! But then I'd have to feed slc. :D

[easyklc]

I'm going to chime in with Bogey and others who actually GET IT!

If you really want to make an impact on China then stop buying their products. No more Walmart people! I have spent the last three years consciously trying not to buy products made in China. It can be done.
It isn't easy, but I'd rather spend the extra money knowing I am supporting local manufacturers.

You might also want to join Amnesty International and read their data as well. If you aren't calling and writing your state and federal representatives every week then you are not paying attention.

We also might want to take a collective deep breath and look at the U.S. human rights rap sheet while we're at it.

Then to add insult to injury get a subscription to The Wall Street Journal and ask yourself this: how is it that the U.S. is the leading customer of the Chinese banking system? Our national debt is largely what we owe them. It goes all the way back to the Industrial Revolution.

Off to get some spicy, cashew chicken take out now...

[Bogey2]

Off to get some spicy, cashew chicken take out now
:lol::lol::lol:

[Dixon]

Quite frankly, I don't give a shit about Nixon and his timeline, or why he went, or the consequences. That was thirty years ago - old news, spilt milk, pick your saying. And I also don't care about trade restrictions, or economics,............or the price of tea in China. ;)

ESG, I appreciate your so candidly admitting to your ignorance of and indifference to U.S. history, international relations and economics. Your reliance on trite little sayings reflects the depth of your knowledge of world affairs. But don't you even care about the prices of goods and commodities in the U.S., which are intricately linked with China? Rewarding China for its cheating and violations with a well-attended Olympics only bolsters China's audacity toward its own people and its trading partners.

And as for your comment that, "If the Chinese government is indeed guilty of the atrocities you reference, against its own people, why would they give a tin shit about whether or not a group of athletes competes at their Games?", the reason China cares about athlete attendance is not only for the big sponsorship bucks, which are likely to be pulled if athletes pull out of the Games, but also simply to save FACE. The Chinese would be embarassed indeed if their games are not well-attended, and it would take them down a notch in terms of their dealings with Tibet, Taiwan, and the rest of the world. A slap-down of China is in order before it out-arms the rest of the world.

[merrygoround]

I'm thinking I agree with you...This should not be the athletes problem but the IOC made a horrible decision on giving the games to China.. Between Tibet and Darfur I'm leaning to a boycott..

What in *&&^^%$## was the IOC thinking.

Right on for the Swiss team!!!!!!

[nhwr]

:sigh: This is the type of thinking that I just don't get. Our human rights record is far from perfect so we should put in with the really bad guys....? Huh?

That is why I keep saying it isn't about China. It is about us. I agree that our national character will have little effect on the Games. But our participation in the Games in spite of Darfur, Tibet, suppression of free speech and religious freedoms, the counterfeiting and intellectual property theft, the reprogramming and other horrendous human rights violations, what does that make us? Saying that it was the IOCs decision and we are just going along with it doesn't paint a very flattering picture. It just isn't credible to say that athletes unlike everyone else in the US should be free to determine where and how they practice their trade. And whether you accept it or not, participation is a political statement.

To use ESG's example; say I decide to go to a college with a terrible reputation. I toil hard to get my degree and the college gets their accreditation yanked before I complete my studies. You may see me as the helpless victim in the situation but don't I bear responsibility for the choice I made? It is no different for the athletes in these Games. It was their decision to prepare to compete in an ethically questionable environment. No one held a gun to their head. What if I spend years and a lot of money designing a high speed processor? I can't sell it in China. I can't even have it manufactured there, so that may put me a significant disadvantage in terms of production cost. Is that "punishment"? No, it is how our foreign policy works.

Of course, as I mentioned earlier and easyklc mentioned recently, we owe the Chinese a lot of money. Mostly it has been used to fund the morgtage market and our debt from Iraq. So maybe the real reason we won't boycott the Games is we can't afford to piss them off :eek:

I know ESG doesn't like articles but here is something for the rest of you.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article498.html Of course, this situation isn't strictly the fault of the Chinese. It never would have be possible without our willing participation. Seems like we will do anything to get what we want in the short term :no:

[egontoast]

Right on for the Swiss team!!!!!!

Hmmm. The Swiss Team did not withdraw for political reasons. In fact, most of the Swiss team and the trainer (who resigned over it) were extremely unhappy with S.I.'s late announcement that she would not take her horses (for health reasons, not politics).


http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/europe/2008/sui_openletter.html

[cloudyandcallie]

NO WAY SHOULD WE BOYCOTT. JIMMY CARTER MADE THE WORSE MISTAKE EVER TO BOYCOTT IN RUSSIA. ALL HE HARMED WERE THE ATHLETES. THE BEST WAY TO PROMOTE PEACE AND DEMOCRACY IS TO DO AS THE U.S. DID IN 1936 WAS IT, WHEN THE USA WENT TO GERMANY AND SHOWED THAT LITTLE AUSTRIAN HILTER THAT AMERICANS OF ALL COLORS CAN WIN AGAINST BIGOTS. AND JESSE OWENS WAS GREAT. SO GO TO CHINA, REPRESENT THE BEST OF OUR COUNTRY, AND HOPE FOR PEACE.....AND GOLD MEDALS FOR THE HORSES IN HONG KONG!:)

[cloudyandcallie]

WAIT A MINUTE! IF YOU ARE COMPETING IN CHINA, AND YOU FEEL MORALLY THAT IT IS WRONG TO DO SO, THEN DON'T GO! I'VE BEEN PROTESTING INJUSTICE SINCE I MARCHED WITH MLKINGJR IN THE 60S, SO I FEEL WE ALL MUST DO WHAT WE CAN TO HELP GET EVERYONE (INCLUDING WOMEN WHO STILL DON'T HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS IN THE USA) EQUAL RIGHTS AND STOP OPPRESSION. BUT, I FOUND MANY YEARS AGO THAT IT IS EASIER TO CHANGE THE WORLD BY WORKING WITHIN THE SYSTEM (YES IT REQUIRES COMPROMISE BUT NOT SELLOUT) TO CHANGE IT, SINCE SOMETIMES PROTESTS DO WORK (WE BROUGHT DOWN LBJ) AND SOMETIMES THEY DON'T WORK (WE COULDN'T STOP THE NAPALMING OF VIETNAM) SO MAKE YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL DECISIONS, BUT DON'T RIDICULE THE BLOGGERS WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU, UNLESS YOU PLAN TO GO TO CHINA AND PROTEST THERE. LOTS OF LUCK DOING THAT W/O GETTING JAILED OR WORSE. BOYCOTT CHINESE PRODUCTS IF YOU WILL (LOTS OF LUCK THAT MEANS NO TRIPS TO WALMART). BUT LET PEOPLE VOICE THEIR OPINIONS. I SAY GO GO GO TO CHINA AND SHOW THE CHINESE PEOPLE THAT WE ARE NOT THE "UGLY AMERICANS" WE HAVE BEEN PORTRAYED AS.:)

[egontoast]

Friendly advice:

People will take you more seriously if you don't post in all caps.

[Fixerupper]

Haven't read this whole thread (on purpose) so if I repeat, I apologize:
The boycott of the Moscow Olympics wasn't about human rights in Afghanistan (the excuse for the boycott was USSR's invasion of Afghanistan). The boycott was part of the larger plan to bankrupt the USSR (along with supporting/financing radical Muslim extremists in Afghanistan to fight against the USSR...one of which was Osama bin Laden...hmm... law of unintended consequences..???) There is no ultimate plan to attempt to bankrupt PRC at present...there will be no boycott.

[ESG]

ESG, I appreciate your so candidly admitting to your ignorance of and indifference to U.S. history, international relations and economics. Your reliance on trite little sayings reflects the depth of your knowledge of world affairs. But don't you even care about the prices of goods and commodities in the U.S., which are intricately linked with China? Rewarding China for its cheating and violations with a well-attended Olympics only bolsters China's audacity toward its own people and its trading partners.

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. IF my "trite little sayings" offend you, please feel free not to read them.

And if you had actually bothered to comprehend what I wrote, you'd see that I think that athletics and politics shouldn't mix. I don't give a shit about China. I don't care about being politically correct. I do care about the athletes, and whether they get to do their job or not. That shouldn't be your decision, or mine, or any politician's - it should be theirs.

And as for your comment that, "If the Chinese government is indeed guilty of the atrocities you reference, against its own people, why would they give a tin shit about whether or not a group of athletes competes at their Games?", the reason China cares about athlete attendance is not only for the big sponsorship bucks, which are likely to be pulled if athletes pull out of the Games, but also simply to save FACE. The Chinese would be embarassed indeed if their games are not well-attended, and it would take them down a notch in terms of their dealings with Tibet, Taiwan, and the rest of the world. A slap-down of China is in order before it out-arms the rest of the world.

You might be right. But denying our athletes the right to go and compete at the Olympics isn't going to make a difference on how well armed China is. It's only going to deprive our athletes of the chance to compete. That's what some of you don't seem to understand. Don't punish the athletes; punish your government for dealing with China in the first place, and leave the poor athletes out of this.

[AnotherRound]

Despite a rabidly pro-Tibet stance and very strong passion about the plight of the poor in China and other countries of the world, I have very little confidence that a boycott of an international sporting event would provide any direct or immediate help to these people - or long term help.

.

That's it. That's all you had to say. Say your opinion. But instead you spewed a great, self-rightous post, Slick-o.

how is ridiculing other opinions any different in spirit from china's human rights violations?


So WTF does that mean? Everytime you post you ridicule everone else's opinions on the subject. Why not just post YOUR opinion instead of a long diatribe discecting everyone elses' opinions? Diatribes are not supposed to be tolerated anymore. Hopefully your nasty critiques will start getting edited. Sheesh. Way to go, Slick-o.

[AnotherRound]

That's it. That's all you had to say. Say your opinion. But instead you spewed a great, self-rightous post, Slick-o all about criticising the way everyone is arguing about opinions. That's why we post, to discuss, argue, hash and sort through the differing opinions. Nobody is ridiculing other people's posts, but you!

Everytime you post you ridicule everone else's opinions on the subject. Why not just post YOUR opinion instead of a long diatribe ridiculing how everyone elses posts their opinions? Diatribes are not supposed to be tolerated anymore. Hopefully your nasty critiques will start getting edited. Sheesh. Way to go, Slick-o.

My opinion is that boycotting the olympics makes a statement about my support or lack of support of the country hosting the games. I do not respect China and their policies, and I do not respect the US's and other countries' policies towards accepting China. If enough countries boycott the olympics in China, perhaps the olympic committee will take notice. Perhaps not. Countries with gross human rights violations should not be allowed to host the games. That is my opinion, and I'm not so sure the US human rights policies are anything to write home about, either.Too bad, it would be fun to watch the equestrian events, but not this time.

[Bogey2]

and I do not respect the US's and other countries' policies towards accepting China.

then you should boycott all of the olympics held by any country who went to the China ones....including the US. There you go.

[ridgeback]

For me I've decided to follow the Dalai Lama on this one he's my spiritual leader.

Asked on NBC "Nightly News" whether he wanted the world to boycott the Olympics this summer, the Dalai Lama replied, "No."

Asked if he wanted the United States and other world leaders to boycott the opening ceremony in support of Tibet, he replied, "That's up to them."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080411/ts_nm/china_tibet_dalailama_dc

I think we should boycott the opening ceremonies to show support for Tibet and Darfur.

[MaresNest]

then you should boycott all of the olympics held by any country who went to the China ones....including the US. There you go.

Okay, okay. Take a deep breath. No one is suggesting that simply attending the Games is on par with torture of political dissidents or bankrolling Sudanese genocide. There are good points to be made on your side of the argument, but when you opt not to make them and instead put words in the mouth of the other side, it only makes your position seem weaker... as though you have to invent things to say about the other side because there aren't any true criticisms to be made. And, in a convoluted issue such as this, that's just not the case. I personally find myself on the opposite side of the issue as you, but I can still see that your side is not without merit. Let's try to see things as they are and address the real points of contention instead of indulging in wildly extrapolated hyperbole.

The point here is that China's human rights record is so appalling that it rises above the level of problems with other nations. And because it is so reprehensible, many people of conscience want to make a statement against it. The crux of the debate is: Is an Olympic boycott a warranted and effective statement against China's human rights record? Most/all of us can probably agree that China's human rights record is abysmal, so I think the issue of whether or not a boycott is warranted is far less contentious than whether or not it would be effective.

[Foxtrot's]

Isn't it a bit late for all the Johnny come Lateley's to jump on the bandwaggon if they are so passionate about being anti-Olympic Games in China. China was awarded the games years ago, and China applied for the games even years before that. Where were all of you then? If you are so passionate about human rights, as you should be, are you out demonstrating, putting yourselves in danger, spending your energy and time and money? Joining Amnesty International? Athletes who cannot find it within their moral boundaries to attend should have thought of this long ago, also, and not accepted funding, sponsorship, etc. and left some space for other athletes in the qualifying rounds and made a real sacrifice.
Human rights and animal rights issues exist and we should all be very concerned about them. The Games is an opportunity for 205 countries to get together - many of whom are political enemies - and put aside political problems in the interests of forbearance and tolerance. The IOC has made it very clear their stand on the issue.

[cloudyandcallie]

Isn't it a bit late for all the Johnny come Lateley's to jump on the bandwaggon if they are so passionate about being anti-Olympic Games in China. China was awarded the games years ago, and China applied for the games even years before that. Where were all of you then? If you are so passionate about human rights, as you should be, are you out demonstrating, putting yourselves in danger, spending your energy and time and money? Joining Amnesty International? Athletes who cannot find it within their moral boundaries to attend should have thought of this long ago, also, and not accepted funding, sponsorship, etc. and left some space for other athletes in the qualifying rounds and made a real sacrifice.
Human rights and animal rights issues exist and we should all be very concerned about them. The Games is an opportunity for 205 countries to get together - many of whom are political enemies - and put aside political problems in the interests of forbearance and tolerance. The IOC has made it very clear their stand on the issue.
great post. but then you are Canadian. We americans think we dictate what is right and what is wrong. go visit New Orleans and then you will want to boycott the usa.

[MaresNest]

go visit New Orleans and then you will want to boycott the usa.

Yes, I think our record is pretty bad, too. I could understand other countries boycotting us, if the shoe was on the other foot. And, if it would encourage our government to get its act together, I'd be all for it.

[MaresNest]

Isn't it a bit late for all the Johnny come Lateley's to jump on the bandwaggon if they are so passionate about being anti-Olympic Games in China. China was awarded the games years ago, and China applied for the games even years before that. Where were all of you then?

This is one of the more valid points to the anti-boycott argument. However, China promised to make improvements in human rights when they were awarded the Games. I expect that a lot of people were hoping that the Games would be enough of an incentive for them to actually do so. Sadly, that has not panned out. I can't honestly say that that's what I was thinking, though. The truth for me is that I wasn't aware of China's human rights record until recently. I was a child when the Tienanmen Square thing happened, and I had no memory of it. It was only when I recently started learning about China's human rights record that I became so appalled. Sure, it would have been cleaner to do all this protesting years ago and have prevented China from ever been given the Games in the first place. But it didn't happen.

I do think, though, that 'better late than never' applies here. As I've said over and over throughout this thread, I don't know that a boycott is the best possible way to make a statement, but I think a statement needs to be made. A boycott is the obvious thing, but there may be something better. But I don't buy the argument that, just because we have ignored something for this long, we should continue to ignore it.

[Fixerupper]

Stop buying at Walmart ;)

[Bogey2]

great post. but then you are Canadian. We americans think we dictate what is right and what is wrong. go visit New Orleans and then you will want to boycott the usa.
:lol::lol::lol:

[MaresNest]

Stop buying at Walmart ;)

Yes, it's been mentioned many times in this thread. :) And I've been doing my best!

[Fixerupper]

Just say no....:lol:

[StraightAccord]

For me I've decided to follow the Dalai Lama on this one he's my spiritual leader.

Asked on NBC "Nightly News" whether he wanted the world to boycott the Olympics this summer, the Dalai Lama replied, "No."

Asked if he wanted the United States and other world leaders to boycott the opening ceremony in support of Tibet, he replied, "That's up to them."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080411/ts_nm/china_tibet_dalailama_dc

I think we should boycott the opening ceremonies to show support for Tibet and Darfur.

OP, I think you'd be looking to your own sig lines which you've chosen, and if you aren't, perhaps you might re-evaluate them:

“You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.” Buddha

Seeking happiness outside ourselves is like waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing north.Tibetan

------------------------------------------------------------

Let's just be a little bit compassionate and aware of the pride, hope and joy that the Chinese people have towards having "The Olympics" in their country. Just as we, in the USA, would be mortified if anyone from another country assumed that we as an individual were a clone of our government, the citizens of China can not be assumed to be little robot clones of THEIR government!

Disagree with the Chinese Govt, fine! So do I. But think for a single moment that a boycott is going to have a positive result? Get a grip. Preferrably on Reality.

No one's Boycott, fervent pledges of support for Tibet, righteous indignation are going to matter more than a fart in the wind to the Chinese Government. Get over yourselves.

What you CAN do is emulate the beliefs that you espouse in demonstrating tolerance, forgiveness, empathy, compassion, yadda yadda.;)

Let's see some of THAT.

[nhwr]

The only way to effect change is to implement it in yourself.

This means deciding whether you can personally tolerate what the Chinese are doing. Saying your small voice doesn't matter is just what the Chinese government believes. Saying a recent interest in the politics in the Games is too little too late is the same. How is it wrong to become aware? I notice that many who stake out the cynical position that it is wrong to speak up now are professionals. Does that factor in? Saying our position isn't perfect so we can't complain is ridiculous. No one is perfect yet change is possible and often desirable.

We can't change China. If we care to, we can change ourselves.
But maybe not everyone cares to see that happen.

[Foxtrot's]

I did visit New Orleans - but before Katrina. I get your point, but on a lighter tone we loved, loved our time there with the HBPA. I especially wanted to hear some real jazz and visit the birthplace of jazz and was warmly welcomed for my interest. I guess it has all
changed now, sadly.

[MaresNest]

Just as we, in the USA, would be mortified if anyone from another country assumed that we as an individual were a clone of our government, the citizens of China can not be assumed to be little robot clones of THEIR government!

Disagree with the Chinese Govt, fine! So do I. But think for a single moment that a boycott is going to have a positive result? Get a grip. Preferrably on Reality.

No one's Boycott, fervent pledges of support for Tibet, righteous indignation are going to matter more than a fart in the wind to the Chinese Government. Get over yourselves.


I haven't seen where anyone has said that the Chinese people are committing atrocities. All the criticisms I've seen have been of the Chinese government.

And I would, personally, be quite pleased if the international community, or even a single nation, orchestrated a non-violent protest over the wrongdoings of the US government. I would appreciate the statement being made to our government, whether our government chose to heed it or not. Some Chinese people might feel the same way, particularly since they do not have free speech to the degree that we do. I know that if the shoe were on the other foot (and, really, it kind of is, given our record of late), I would appreciate a statement from 'the outside' saying that the government's behavior is unacceptable to the international community.

Also, remember that the Chinese government is trying hard to be seen as a modern, 'first world' nation. What the international community thinks matters to them. So far, the US has not been willing to make a bold economic statement to the Chinese, since they are the top producers of the cheap goods that we are addicted to.

[StraightAccord]

Okey dokey.

[ridgeback]

OP, I think you'd be looking to your own sig lines which you've chosen, and if you aren't, perhaps you might re-evaluate them:

“You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.” Buddha

Seeking happiness outside ourselves is like waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing north.Tibetan

------------------------------------------------------------

Let's just be a little bit compassionate and aware of the pride, hope and joy that the Chinese people have towards having "The Olympics" in their country. Just as we, in the USA, would be mortified if anyone from another country assumed that we as an individual were a clone of our government, the citizens of China can not be assumed to be little robot clones of THEIR government!

Disagree with the Chinese Govt, fine! So do I. But think for a single moment that a boycott is going to have a positive result? Get a grip. Preferrably on Reality.

No one's Boycott, fervent pledges of support for Tibet, righteous indignation are going to matter more than a fart in the wind to the Chinese Government. Get over yourselves.

What you CAN do is emulate the beliefs that you espouse in demonstrating tolerance, forgiveness, empathy, compassion, yadda yadda.;)

Let's see some of THAT.

I am looking at my signature:D this is why I am not angry;) Can I recommend Eckhart Tolle's book A New Earth...

[AnotherRound]

I agree with you, Ridgeback. Each small voice is important, and passive resistance by demonstration or boycott is not giving in to anger. Its never too late to become conscious of issues of importance, and a person should never be shamed into being defeated when others tell him his effort is too small or too late.

I have been recommended "A New Earth" as well, and have not read it yet. I will shortly!

[ridgeback]

I agree with you, Ridgeback. Each small voice is important, and passive resistance by demonstration or boycott is not giving in to anger. Its never too late to become conscious of issues of importance, and a person should never be shamed into being defeated when others tell him his effort is too small or too late.

I have been recommended "A New Earth" as well, and have not read it yet. I will shortly!

Thanks I couldn't agree more..A New Earth is outstanding pm me after you read it I would love to see what you think... p.s. I think this has been a great discussion and I can totally see everyone's side on this issue..

I wish I could do more I have the complex of wanting to save the world LOL...I try and do my part and I try to be for things vs against things..