Should Dressage Equitation be open to ALL riders, and not just Jr/Yr?

[AMDressage]

I know that the USEF proposal has many riders up in arms about the whole thing. There have been many suggestions, questions, disagreements, etc. I saw someplace (Rebecca, Mary, and Ana's well developed report maybe?) about having a rider test where it's just the rider judged like the dressage seat equitation classes. However, the DSE are only available to Jr/Yr.

Do you think the Dressage Seat Equitation classes should be open to Amateurs AND Open riders?

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

Well, I think it could be fun, if humbling, knowing inevitably I would get beaten by some tight as a tick tactful 8 year old, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "It SHOULD be open to all."

I would likely give it a shot, if shows/USEF chose to make it open to all. And if it were set that cards were open, or judges made a quick comment to all, or the most egregiously good and bad, that could be a good thing (depending, of course, on the judges!)

[DJ]

I say why not? It would be a fun class to have for AA and a very gentle way to transition riders over 18 from other disciplines into dressage while educating them. JMHO

ETA: an extra class = extra fees = better for show management.

[dressager]

YES! I think it is actually restricted to juniors- under 18.

Why not? I can't think of any reason to not offer the class... I am very much in favor of the idea of a rider test, which I think may have the potential to remove some of the inequalities of the moving up proposal.

[BaroquePony]

Absolutely.

It would offer an excellent opportunity for people, riders and others, to begin to understand the importance of correct dressage equitation and effective and correct aids.

I know very few young riders that have the discipline to develop the highly sophisticated set of aids necessary to train classically. That also holds true for adults.

It takes a long time to develop the coordination to use the aids in a sophisticated manner.

[atr]

I think it would be an excellent idea to offer this class for AAs.

I don't think it would be well subscribed by professionals, but to offer it to AAs up to a certain level would be very enlightening!

[honeydoozy]

Humbling...is right!!!:eek:

But I'd totally do it, particularly if it were handled as a friendly learning opportunity. Those of us who have converted from a different discipline could benefit from some help in this area, I'm sure.

[Roan]

I'd do it in a heartbeat. Actually, I'd rather start with that before tests.

Eileen

[flshgordon]

I'm not saying it's a bad idea in theory, but I wonder how much interest there would be in such a class. Right now (at least the times I've even seen it have entries) it is very poorly attended (or entered) around here and even when it is, judges are not always familiar with the way it is to be run.

I can't envision it really having enough entries to make the hassle worthwhile unless there is some renewed interest in it.

[hoopoe]

My GMO sponsors an adult eq class at its three rated shows.

There is not a lot of interest even though there is a nice year end award for combined high point

I entered them last year and had some good input from the judges

[luckyducky1983]

Maybe they can let the "open" pros in too...especially those of us whose part time riding instructor job meant losing the Ammie card :) If we lose 3 x in a row to the uber-flexible-all-ab-muscle 8 year old, can we have our Ammie card back? :)

I think it would be a good (potentially rocky however) exercise to also ask the non-kiddie horses to behave themselves in company as well.

[AMDressage]

I think they could come up with Equitation tests...

Training level you do your basic w/t/c on both reins.
First Level w/t/c, T/C lengthenings, LY, and stretchy circle
Second level lateral movements, mediums, simple changes, etc.
Third level execute clean flying changes over X, etc.
and so on.

[poltroon]

I would make it open. Why restrict it?

I think it would be much more interesting and better attended if it had its own ridden test, rather than ridden collectively. Dressage arenas are too small to have a collective class of any size. Think of it as more like a Dressage Seat Medal class. I would enter if it was set up as an individual test.

[flshgordon]

Poltroon your idea makes more sense. The times I have seen this class it is a total disaster....especially because the judge is at liberty to ask what they want to see which could be just W-T-C or it could be leg yield across the diagonal, counter canter, etc. And once people start going all different ways, that's when all hell breaks loose. I think individual tests would be a better idea. shorter than a regular test but enough to demonstrate competence.

[Roan]

Sounds to me like a lot of those riders have just never been in a class full of other horses before?

In a lot of Western schooling shows they have people do w/j/l, then the judge cuts the class and excuses the worst. The rest line up and then do small "tests" to show they can handle their horse.

Just a matter of organization, IMO.

Eileen

[AMDressage]

Roan agreed :yes:. I guess it doesn't seem like a such a hassle to me, because I did the hunter on the flat classes back in high school. The ones I was involved with were run similar to the western classes, except you didn't get cut.

[Roan]

Roan agreed :yes:. I guess it doesn't seem like a such a hassle to me, because I did the hunter on the flat classes back in high school. The ones I was involved with were run similar to the western classes, except you didn't get cut.
Right, cuts weren't done that often and usually in the case of large classes or tie breaking.

When I was eight I won my very first ribbon (2nd place!) in the 14 & Under Class because the judge cut the class AND made us switch horses AND then told all of us to take our feet out of the stirrups. Was a hoot!

Eileen

[ideayoda]

Here are basic guidelines: http://www.equestrian.org/aboutus/inter/dressage/seat-equitation/scoresheet-open.pdf One really doesnt need to do movements per se, to see the quality of equitation, but the individual workouts (if chosen) could be tailored to the level.

[Bogey2]

I thought it was open to all riders with 2nd level horses and below...I need to find the rules.

[Roan]

I thought it was open to all riders with 2nd level horses and below...I need to find the rules.

This is from the link that ideayoda posted. Please note that it is from 2003:

"USA Equestrian Art. 1932.
Dressage Seat Equitation classes may be offered for Juniors, Young Riders, Adult Amateurs and/or Open riders according to the following specifications. . ."

So, now I'm confused. Did they axe it for AAs and Open?

Eileen

[Bogey2]

no, go to the dressage section DR132 on the USEF site. It is still open to all riders...so I guess maybe some show managers limit it?

http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2008/08-DR.pdf

[ideayoda]

THe 2008 rules (vs the similar score sheet which was posted) is:
DR132 Dressage Seat Equitation.
1. Dressage Seat Equitation classes. May be offered for Juniors, Young Riders, Adult Am-
ateurs and/or Open riders according to the following specifications:
a. Medium walk, working trot and canter both ways of the ring must be performed. The
rider’s position, seat and specifically the correct use and effect of the aids required by the
Training and First Level Dressage tests are to be judged as outlined in DR117.1.
b. The movements shall be performed by the exhibitors simultaneously; however, the
judge may ask for independent tests as listed below in DR132.2.i(4)-2.i(5).
c. No change of horses shall be required.
d. Whips and spurs are allowed. Horses shall be shown in plain snaffle.
e. The size of a group shall be limited to no more than 25 riders. Groups may be divided
into smaller sections, at the discretion of the judges, for safety and convenience. Judges
may limit the number of horses required to canter at the same time, at their discretion.
f. Only the rider is judged, however, lameness of horses will be penalized per DR122.6.
g. Prizes are awarded to the rider, not the horse owner.
h. Back numbers must be provided to Equitation riders and they must be positioned to
be clearly visible at all times.
i. Judges are required to give a final percentage score only for the riders placing in the
class, plus two reserves, except when two or more judges officiate separately. When
judges officiate separately, final percentage scores from each judge must be given to all
riders competing in the class.
j. USEF Dressage Seat Equitation scoresheets must be used.
k. Juniors may not ride stallions in Dressage Seat Equitation classes.
l. Classes should be held in an enclosed ring that is larger than a standard dressage
arena, if available. If such a space is not available, an open schooling area is permitted.
If classes must be held in a dressage arena, it must be at least 20m x 60m, and no more
than 6 horses shall be asked to canter at the same time.
m. Judges are encouraged to provide verbal comments to riders after the class, but score-
sheets must not be posted. BOD 1/13/08 Effective 4/1/08
2. USEF Dressage Seat Medal Program
a. The purpose of the program is to promote and reward correct seat, position and use
of aids in dressage for Junior riders.
held; one for Juniors age thirteen and under, and the other for Juniors age fourteen
through eighteen. A National Champion and National Reserve Champion will be named
from each Finals class.
d. Juniors who are named Regional Champions and Reserve Champions at age 13 or
18 will be eligible for the next year’s final in the respective age group in which they qual-
ified.
e. Federation Dressage Seat Medal Semi-Finals and Finals classes must be held on a
weekend.
f. Qualification.
(1)Prior to 2009, riders must have qualified to compete in the Semi-Finals according
to the criteria approved by the Federation Executive Committee. For 2009 and there-
after, riders must qualify for the Semi-Finals through a Federation Dressage Seat
Medal qualifying class held at any Federation/USDF recognized competition. The cri-
teria listed below in 2.f.(2)-2.f(4) apply under both qualifying methods.
(2)Rider: Must meet the current Federation definition of Junior, for purposes of com-
petition in the Dressage Division, i.e., a rider is eligible until the end of the calendar
year in which he/she reaches the age of 18. (DR119.3) will be eligible to compete in
a USEF Dressage Seat Medal Semi-Final class in the appropriate age group. A rider
is eligible for the 13 and under Semi-Final class until the end of the calendar year in
which he/she reaches the age of 13. A rider is eligible for the 14 through 18 Semi-Final
class from the beginning of the calendar year in which he/she reaches 14 until the
end of the calendar year in which he/she reaches the age of 18.
(3)Horse: There are no qualification, ownership, or registration requirements for
horses or ponies that compete in USEF Dressage Seat Medal Semi-Finals or Finals
classes. An eligible rider may compete on any horse or pony of any level in Semi-Fi-
nals and Finals. (Exception: In order to compete in a USEF Dressage Seat Medal
Semi-Final, a rider with any horse must have qualified at any level to compete in a
USEF/USDF Regional Dressage Championships. Horses competing in Semi-Finals
and Finals classes must have either a USEF HID or be USEF Recorded.) The same
horse or pony is not required for the Semi-Finals and the Finals. Substitution of horse
or pony is permitted at any time before the start of a Semi-Finals or Finals class, as
long as the appropriate change is made through the competition secretary to the entry
records.
(4)Horses and ponies may be ridden by only one rider in each division, but may com-
pete in both divisions.
g. Championship Rules.
(1)A rider may compete in only one Semi-Finals class at one Regional Championships
competition.
(2)Borrowed horses are permitted in both Semi-Finals and Finals classes.
(3)Two Federation Registered (R) or Senior (S)judges will officiate independently in
each Semi-Finals class, using separate scribes and separate class score sheets.
Three Federation Registered (R) or Senior (S) judges will officiate independently in
each Finals class. Finals class judges must be approved by the Federation Dressage
Committee. BOD 1/13/08 Effective 4/1/08
(4)USEF Dressage Seat Medal class score sheets must be used. The final score for
each rider must be posted at the conclusion of the class.
(5)Rider scores and placing will be determined by averaging the total scores from
each judge. Tied scores in a USEF Dressage Seat Medal Final class will be broken
by requiring riders to perform an additional independent test, which will be scored by
all judges together. The higher score on the additional independent test will receive the
higher placing. In a USEF Dressage Seat Medal Semi-Final class, judges shall con-
sult to break ties.
(6)Dressage Division rules will apply, in particular:
a. Saddlery, Equipment and Dress as required for First Level, except as specified
in .h below.
b. Unauthorized Assistance as defined in DR122.10 is prohibited.
c. Use of voice will be penalized.
d. Horses may be disqualified for lameness, as defined in DR122.6.
e. Elimination, as defined in DR124.1, except for .e, .h and .m. h. Saddlery,
Equipment and Dress.
(1)Horses of all levels (both age divisions) must be ridden in a plain snaffle as pictured
in DR121 Figure 1A. Whips and spurs are permitted in both Semi-Finals and Finals
classes, and all riders must wear a short jacket as described in DR120. Protective
headgear, as described in GR801, is required for participation in both Semi-Finals
and Finals classes, however, the Federation, Show Committee and Licensed Officials
are not responsible for inspecting headgear worn for such compliance. All other dress,
saddlery and equipment rules for First Level horses and riders in competition and
warm-up must conform to DR120 and DR121, except that horses also showing in
dressage classes at Fourth Level and above may warm up for those classes in a sim-
ple double bridle.
i. Class Specifications.
(1)The rider’s position, seat and use and effect of the aids will be judged as described
in DR117.
(2)Movements shall be performed by the exhibitors simultaneously; however, the
judges may ask for independent execution of certain tests. All instructions must be
publicly announced.
(3)Riders must be judged at the medium walk, working trot (sitting and rising), and
working canter in both directions.
(4)In judging the position, seat and use of aids, judges may include the following
movements and exercises as required at Training and First Level:
May be ridden as a group:
a. Free walk
b. Transitions from one gait to the next in both directions
c. Transitions from walk to halt and vice versa
d. Change of direction across the diagonal, down the centerline, across the arena,
and/or by making a half-circle at the walk or trot
(5)Additional tests from which judges may choose movements and exercises, as re-
quired at Training and First Level, to be ridden in small groups or independently:
a. Transitions
b. Leg yield
c. Changes of lead through trot
d. Serpentine at the trot
e. Shallow loop serpentine with counter canter
f. Trot lengthening and/or canter lengthening
g. Riding without stirrups
(6)In Semi-Finals classes, it is not required that all riders in a class perform inde-
pendent tests. The judges may, at their discretion, choose to require independent
tests, and they may select any number of riders in the class to perform one or more
independent tests. However, independent tests must be required of each rider in Fed-
eration DSM Finals classes.
(7)No change of horses shall be required in Semi-Finals or Finals competition.
(8)The number of horses required to work at the same time shall be limited to no
more than 25. Groups may be divided into smaller sections, at the discretion of the
judges, for safety and convenience. Judges may also limit the number of horses re-
quired to canter at the same time, at their discretion.
j. Competition Ring.
(1)USEF Dressage Seat Medal classes may be held in an enclosed ring that is larger
than a standard dressage arena, if available. If such a space is not available, an open
schooling area is permitted. If classes must be held in a dressage arena, it must be
at least 20m x 60m, and no more than 6 horses shall be asked to canter at the same

[Sandy M]

How are dressage equitation classes scored: Just "opinion" and give out the ribbons, or is there a mathematical score, such as is given for say, a "Hunter Derby"?

Would a possible solution to the &*)(^#$$^ qualification nonsense be solved by requiring people - junior/amateur/pro - to achieve a certain minimum score in a "dressage equitation" class before they could show at "X" level???

[ideayoda]

They are scored with the suggestions of the sheet, but yes, it is according to the rules below:


DR117 The Position and Aids of the Rider.
1. All the movements should be obtained without apparent effort of the rider. He should be
well balanced with his loins and hips supple, thighs and legs steady and well stretched down-
ward. The upper part of the body easy, free and erect with the hands low and close together
without, however, touching either each other or the horse and with the thumb as the highest
point; the elbows and arms close to the body enabling the rider to follow the movements of
the horse smoothly and freely and to apply his aids imperceptibly. This is the only position mak-
ing it possible for the rider to school his horse progressively and correctly.
2. Not only the aids of the hands and the legs but also of the seat are of great importance
in dressage. Only the rider who understands how to contract and relax his loin muscles at the
right moment is able to influence his horse correctly (compare DR102.2, DR108 and DR115.3).
3. Riding with both hands is obligatory at all national and International Dressage Events.
However, riding with one hand is permitted in the Freestyle Tests and when leaving the arena.
Individuals holding a Federation Dispensation Certificate may use bridged or special adaptive
reins for use with one or no hand(s), if their physical limitations require such and the equip-
ment is listed on the Dispensation Certificate.
4. The use of the voice in any way whatsoever or clicking the tongue once or repeatedly is
a serious fault involving the deduction of at least 2 marks from those that would otherwise have
been awarded for the movement where this occurred.

Imho there should be a picture of the ideal alignment (as there is for the other equitation sections), at least as a springboard (ie ear/shoulder/hip/back of heel aligned, low thigh/etc, especially since so few dressage riders have their chests open and their upper arms hanging neutrally.

[J-Lu]

How are dressage equitation classes scored: Just "opinion" and give out the ribbons, or is there a mathematical score, such as is given for say, a "Hunter Derby"?

Would a possible solution to the &*)(^#$$^ qualification nonsense be solved by requiring people - junior/amateur/pro - to achieve a certain minimum score in a "dressage equitation" class before they could show at "X" level???

I scribed for this once and the judge gave little "cheat" remarks to herself (well, me) for each rider at each gait. She lined up the riders and told them her general impression and I think told them their rank at that point. No scores or sheets distributed.

I'd love to enter this class but so far I've only seen juniors entered in it. It would be fun and informative. However, my impression is that the judges are also trying to get into a groove on how to score these classes, too.