Horse getting Behind the Vertical, Any Suggestions?

[Atypical]

Hi all,
The horse in question is a coming five year old Warlander stallion, started under saddle maybe 6-8 months ago, very slowly, as there were some serious trust/confidence issues going in (the horses, not mine lol). He has now developed into a lovely boy w/t very solid and his balance at the canter improves daily. He is very soft to the bridle, takes my leg well, but he does have a tendency to want to curl up behind the vertical rather than stretching down into it. He is starting to get it, but its inconsistent. I keep a super light contact with his face and try to keep him stepping up with my leg. He has NEVER gone in draw reins or gadgets, though I did spend a good amount of time with him on the lunge line both in loose side reins and occasionally a chambon. Any suggestions?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=35575966&id=19208295#pid=35576006
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=35575966&id=19208295#pid=35576004
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=35575966&id=19208295#pid=35576001
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=35575966&id=19208295#pid=35575966

[appychik]

Can't see any of the pics. Says we must be logged in to view... :confused:

[rabicon]

Can't see any photos either. :no:

All I can say is that my guy will do it also, he only will do it if I half halt him to hard or stay in his mouth :yes: Which is my fault. :yes:

[Dixon]

This is what happens when people focus on frame before forward and balance. You're going to have to spend a lot of time riding forward, forward, forward and just bite the bullet when his head goes up and inverted. Unfortunately he probably learned to give to gadgets (yes, chambon is a gadget) before he learned to go forward to the bit, so you have to undo what's been done. At least he's still young, so starting all over isn't a big deal after only 6-8 months under saddle. Is he in a sufficiently gentle bit?

[nhwr]

One of the best horses I have ever owned and ridden started out this way. He was very well sprung out of the shoulder but not strong. So how could he easily maintain the rider as well as his neck and head while working? It is a definitely strength issue. If you are competing there are conflicting goals ere. You wan the horse to develop strength and sitting power but that doesn't always present well at training and first level.

Do tons of strength building exercises; transitions (particularly focusing on the downwards, where the horse sits) serpentines, cavalettis and hill work. Maintain appropriate contract no matter what is happening in front of the girth and always ride the hindquarters.

FWIW, my horse struggled at lower levels because the judges always wanted "more stretch thru the topline" (hello? he was stretching but he was high sprung) But he absolutely ruled at higher levels.

[Roan]

I agree with Dixon to a degree. "Frame" isn't something you create; it creates itself with proper training. Man, I hate that word "frame" as it really gives the wrong idea. You don't put a horse in a box and make it take on the shape of the box and then call it done. You school the horse so that it takes on the box shape naturally!

As an aside, I use the term "box" because a lot of competitive horses look like they are box-shaped. I aim for "rubber ball", myself. I want a bouncy, UPWARD horse. Boing! Boing!

Lose the gadgets and go back to basics. Forward, forward, and let him learn to stretch his neck and use his topline. Get his back up and swinging. Six to eight months is nothing under saddle -- don't rush him!

My 2 cents

Eileen

[Atypical]

Hey guys,

Thanks for your input. Lol, though no where in my post did I say FRAME. It's not a word I particularly care for myself, I've just been riding him forward into light contact. As for the Chambon, he was lunged in it a whopping total of three times, some two and a half months ago. At this point I'm just happy to be losing the 'tense' feeling he used to have under saddle, accepting my leg and relaxing.

We are not competing at the moment and I'm riding him in a loose ring snaffle. And oh yeah, balance has been a huge issue with the big guy. Felt for a while like he didn't know he had four legs! I have a tiny area to ride him in and leaning, while still and issue, has gotten a lot better.

He's getting some good muscle on him and he's still a real baby, especially considering his cross, just coming 5 in June, so we don't do anything too intense. We're working on good, proper transitions now, do lots of serpentines and the like. Unfortunately this is not my place, and there are no cavaletti or hills to speak of, though I would love it. I'm not interested in rushing him, just want him not to learn bad habits in the now.

[EqTrainer]

One of the best horses I have ever owned and ridden started out this way. He was very well sprung out of the shoulder but not strong. So how could he easily maintain the rider as well as his neck and head while working? It is a definitely strength issue. If you are competing there are conflicting goals ere. You wan the horse to develop strength and sitting power but that doesn't always present well at training and first level.

Do tons of strength building exercises; transitions (particularly focusing on the downwards, where the horse sits) serpentines, cavalettis and hill work. Maintain appropriate contract no matter what is happening in front of the girth and always ride the hindquarters.

FWIW, my horse struggled at lower levels because the judges always wanted "more stretch thru the topline" (hello? he was stretching but he was high sprung) But he absolutely ruled at higher levels.


I agree with this. The better built the front end is, the more interesting the development process can be :lol: we always think Oh Good! He's built so well, this should be easy! But they all have issues with something.

Strength is the key. I hardly think sidereins and a chambon three times could be that damaging.. remember, when he was being longed, he had no weight on his back... so probably didn't show this tendency then. Add a rider and everything gets harder.

[ideayoda]

Imho the horse needs to ridden in a much longer frame with greater relaxation. Let him take the reins more out, and allow the hands to be more upright (not flattened) which tends to block the riders feeling. He is cute.

[J-Lu]

I agree that some horses have a tendency to curl naturally while others do not. It's not always a problem created by the rider!

In looking through your pictures (all 33 of them), your horse certainly doesn't curl all the time and is sometimes above the bit. So you've got something to work with. To me, it looks like a strength issue on his part because he looks like he's really trying to step under and that is hard at this stage for him. He looks like he's trying to collect too much in some pictures but can't really hold it so curls. But it also looks to me like improving your soft, elastic connection will help alot, too. In some pictures, your reins are tight, in others, they're slack. The steadier you are with your hands, the more you can teach him to seek the contact. (ETA: agree with trying longer reins, too).

You are also really forward with your seat in your western saddle. If you could sit deeper, more vertical and with longer legs, you might help him to shift his balance back a little and come up a little with his huge neck. As he strengthens and you have more ability to straighten his body and keep him balanced, the problem will start to go away, I think.

I agree with riding a horse forward into the contact, but that too easily is interpretted as running the horse off his feet. Be sure you are forward but not running. Another concern you would have might be your footing. The ground looks very hard in these pictures. That can make a horse sore or develop splints and not really want to be in front of the leg.

He's a really cool looking horse! He looks like alot of fun!

J.

[Atypical]

Thanks ideayoda, he's a doll of a horse, great temperament. We are working toward a nice long low frame, he's getting it, but not very consistent yet. I think that's a strength issue for him too, I want him to take the reins and stretch but not rush, become unbalanced or get tense. He's pretty good about it as we near the end of our ride. And yeah, need to watch my hands.

And yep JLu I agree with about everything you said. The horse is not mine, but a training project so is not boarded but kept at home with no arena. He's a great guy, tries SOOOO hard. And his trot is a dream, very comfy.

[cyberbay]

I know this might be controversial, but I would suggest taking contact with his mouth. He needs to be able to ride into contact. And he won't know that unless you offer your hand first. Now, the strength of the contact is where you'll have to feel your way. If you can always feel the 2 corners of his mouth, that would be the starting point. From there, since for him to 'fill' the rein/contact and make it authentic, he has to keep coming through from behind.

Yet, since he gives a poor response to contact, then something -- either the use of the go aids or the use of the containing aids -- has to change. Personally, I'd vote for the change in the go aids, so that he has to place his hind legs in different ways and make them more accessible to the rider. Which would be lateral work, transitions, circles, serpentines, etc., done at every moment you feel that he's going to his old habit of how he uses his hind legs.

Couldn't view the photos, either ... do you need to have a facebook account?

[ideayoda]

Yes, you need an account to view the horse. She has contact, but the seat/hand is rather keeping him very short in the neck (and very thick in the neck as well....round/big boy).

[Remarkable_Shadow]

He looks pretty much like my cob pony did untill my pony figured out long and low. We did alot of flex left, hold, straighten, flex right hold, straighten and then pony decided to come down and round instead of up and hiding. It took a while but doing this during pretty much each ride, not for long just till he'd go down we eventually created a beautiful working picture. His back came up and he was less inclined to hide from the bit. He wanted to work on the vertical.

I also agree, more contact is needed, you're lucky to be able to ride a green horse on that soft of contact, but I'm still thinking more contact (not more pressure) more contact, press into the bit and try the flexing?

[Roan]

. . .Lol, though no where in my post did I say FRAME. It's not a word I particularly care for myself, I've just been riding him forward into light contact. . . .My use of the word "frame" was in response to what Dixon wrote, not what you wrote.

Eileen

[ideayoda]

The horse needs steady contact based in proper posture in the rider and allowing a longer posture in the horse. Too shortened rein and the horse will go 'over the top'.

[oldschool]

I agree with someother posters to bite the bullet, keep the contact so he learns you're not"going away" if he curls. Keep hands low, Sit back but not hard on his back, lots of transitions WITHIN the gait,i.e. 3 strides forward, 3 a bit back etc. Eventually, this cutie patootie will come around. You've got PLENTY 'o time and certainly looks worth it. Don't obsess and just follow the trusty old training scale. Tempo, rhythm, and relaxation. With the ensuing submission will come the frame, just like magic! It never fails. Good Luck! He is the cutest thing I've seen for a while. What the heck is a Warlander anyway??

[Atypical]

Hahah, I asked the same thing when I started riding him. A Warlander is I believe the new baroque type breed du jour. He is a half Andalusian, half Friesan. I feel like I'm definitely at least headed in the right direction with him. I think that many may be right and I need to work on a steadier contact and just be uber patient till he really relaxes his back and just reaches for the bit. Like I said, we have moments, but they're inconsistent.

And to be honest, I have a real hard time finding my center of balance at the canter with him, something I usually don't have a problem with. Not sure why exactly, but I am aware of the issue and working to fix it. Because as a few pointed out in some photos i'm definitely out of the tack in a more hunter half seat than I'd like.

[Roan]

Atypical,

You'll find that a lot of the baroque breeds mature very late and have trouble balancing themselves at a canter when they are young. That's one reason why Lipizzaners aren't started under saddle until they are 4 and not seriously ridden until 6.

At a lot of Lip evaluations/breed shows younger Lips (under 4) will even refuse to canter at liberty because they're "butt high" and off balance. My mare refused to canter at her 3-year old evaluation. It's hard for them.

My point is that your young guy -- even at 5 -- may be having problems balancing himself at the canter and when you add your weight and body to his mass, it could be throwing him off even more.

Just a possible insight to his problem,

Eileen

[oldschool]

you're probably out of the saddle abit in a subconscious attempt to "allow" himto give. This only means that you re a very sensitve and kind rider. Not a fault!I am really sure that you are on the right track to be patient, gently keep the contact and when he is ready, he will trust and stretch Remember, "submission of aids". It doesn't just mean a horse who is pulling is nonsubmissive, a horse that is escaping the other way is equally guilty. You obviously can't "lengthen the frame" when there is nothing to stretch to. Duh!

[nhwr]

I haven't viewed the pics so this may not be applicable but the comment about keeping hands low is cause for some concern, IMO. Low hands, lower than the ideal position, can be quite harsh and forceful and not what you want for a horse who drops BTV. As the horse develops strength and is ready to accepting even seeking the bit, the bit must be the happy place. This won't happen with low hands :no:

[Dixon]

I was thinking the same thing about the low hands advice. With a horse that wants to go BTV, it's important to ensure that the hands remain high enough that the bit is working on the corners of the mouth, not the bars. Doesn't mean you need to raise your hands artificially high -- just means don't let the horse's curled position talk you into dropping your hands to follow his mouth down and in.

[oldschool]

All I meant with the "low hands" comment was to not ry to "bump him up" with quick little jerks upward or keep hands higher than the norm. From everything I've been taught or read, one ventures into dangerous territory when one tries to influence the green horses head or neck position with the hand instead of raising the shoulders . Patience is SO important and a proper seat [and hand position] and the ever lovin' training scale.

[vanheimrhorses]

i disagree the chambon exerts no backwards pressure on the horses mouth so did not cause they curling up problem, this is just a stallion neck thing he is going through, keep riding forward and fiddle around with some bits til you find one he wants to reach down onto more, no skinny clinky bits that he can play with as this encourages him to bring his chin in more, i would work him some out of the arena and on hills as he has to reach on a slope

[Rusty Stirrup]

Getting behind, sucking back or curling up, whatever one wants to call it, is one of the hardest things to correct once it becomes ingrained (just look at the way many horses travel in the ring). The most important thing is to take extra care to ride the horse forward, forward, forward into the contact and not take the contact back with the hands. With young or remedial horses the contact and length of neck changes as they balance and the hand has to be steady, elastic and at first follow more than insist on a rock still outline. Reins not loopy or constricting. Once the horse has the trust that he won't be bumped in the mouth or ridden backwards the steadiness will develope. JMHO

[EqTrainer]

Not disagreeing with you RS, but I have always found it very easy to fix! Most horses, once they realize you will allow them to balance with their neck, retrain out of this easily. But maybe that's just my experience.

Regarding the hands.. low, high.. no, it's all relative to your elbow. The correct place for your hands is where there is a direct line to your elbow. So as long as they are there, no problem.

Regarding keeping contact no matter where the horse puts his head? IMO it's a really bad idea. It's called pulling. Yes, maybe you are lucky and you have a horse that will pull back, therefore giving you the "effect" you are seeking. But ideally the horse learns to *chase* the bit, not just pull back against your hand. If you can skip the pulling stage and go to chasing, you are wayyyy ahead of the game. I would rather retrain a horse who has learned to go BTV than one who has learned to hang on a hand that would not give when they were out of balance.

[oldschool]

Ha Ha That's pretty funny, calling "keeping the contact","pulling". Maybe the way you ride? However, submission to the aids is a requirement for good training. Of course, keeping a straight from bit to elbow, goes without saying. One shouldn't compromise the basics of the training scale. Never "chase" a horse into the contact. Stallions, because of their crest, or even baroque horses in general, can go behind the vertical in the beginning. One must keep a steady and LIGHT contact at all times until the young horse gets confidence. When they know they can't "escape" your LIGHT STEADY contact, they eventually relax and by sending them forward and back with YOUR SEAT and legs, the horse will begin to trust and stretch. This will never truly happen with throwing away the contact and just hoping it happens.

[naters]

EqTrainer: sorry, I know this is an old thread but was very interested in what you said up there.... My previous trainer had me following with my hands (my horse would invert and stick his head up, or go BTV... He was an old roping horse that got shank-bitted a lot I think... Well that's what his old owners said anyway...)

I always suspected I would like to try something different than the follow-with-hands method, because I always felt like the situation you described (ie: horse/me were pulling on each other rather than horse reaching for the bit).

[Petstorejunkie]

I can't view the pics, despite having a FB account.
One thing I have found from my own exploration as a rider and as a teacher is that correct "light contact" is VERY hard for a rider to obtain and maintain, especially on a green horse.
Lift your hands to a position like this
http://www.ncdcta.com/FTphotos/BlueMoon.jpg
hold the reins with your thumb and forefinger and let the rest of your fingers drape around. Keep your wrists straight; elbows bent and upper arms at your sides.
ANY time you have the urge to drop your hands or fiddle with the inside rein, close the fingers on your outside hand and visualize all that energy flowing down your inside leg , suddenly getting sucked up through the horse into that outside hand.
Another thing that i've found that helps with rebalancing a curler is when you go to HH and correct the curling, think about your hands lifting up, and pulling energy out of your center.

I really wish I could see the pics :cry:


Just realized this thread is 3 years old.
its easier to resurrect by quoting from this thread and starting a new one. ;)

[luchiamae]

Haven't read all the posts so ignore me if it's already been said:

But, same with my OTTB, it's usually because your not riding with enough leg. If he sinks behind the bit, you MUST ride the nose out with the legs.

If he is ignoring the forward leg aid, then a little flick with the ring fingers combined with the legs can be enough to lift the head. I NEVER lift the hands, as I don't want him to not trust the contact, but I don't appreciate feeling like I'm holding air when I'm blatantly not :)

Forward, forward, forward - the nose will never be behind the vertical!

[webmistress32]

it's an old thread, is it also an old problem?

forgive me for resurrecting this thread yet again but I have had this problem with my horse since he was started. even riding in the funny "Parelli" halter/bridle with the knot under his chin two years ago, he would still come behind the vertical.

the gal I work with says to push my hands forward at him like I'm pushing a shopping cart and try to move him more forward with my legs and think about his nose pushing out in front of him.

this works about 1/2 of the time. the other 1/2 of the time he seems quite pleased to trot fast, slow, extended, whatever speed you want to do with his neck all curled under and no contact on the reins.

it's very frustrating. I have a show coming up next weekend, my first recognized, and I'd really like to have a good way to explain to the horse "don't do that" before then.

I have been very careful with my hands and I don't want to pull him in the mouth or balance on my hands to his detriment. I'm sure I need more work in this area but I find it very hard to believe I am causing this problem with the reins.

[AllWeatherGal]

it's an old thread, is it also an old problem?

<snip>

I have been very careful with my hands and I don't want to pull him in the mouth or balance on my hands to his detriment. I'm sure I need more work in this area but I find it very hard to believe I am causing this problem with the reins.

If your situation is like mine, you are not causing the problem with the reins, but with lack of forward.

My horse naturally curls behind a contact if not ridden into it from behind. Seriously. The challenge is that she's got very (very) big strides and I must ride those strides forward, without causing a loss of rhythm (rushing), which can be exhilarating or scary, depending on what's happening around us.

I rode a horse previously who also avoided contact, but was very downhill and all her life her owner tried to get her to pick her front up (reach to a contact) with tricks from magazines or television shows. Again, the answer with her was to ask her to move from behind (especially at the walk) with purpose.

IMO it is an old problem with a basic solution: ride the horse from the back-end (engine) forward in its correct rhythm. Until you do that, there's no energy to capture or balance, and anything else is unnecessary complication.

[rodawn]

Imho the horse needs to ridden in a much longer frame with greater relaxation. Let him take the reins more out.......... He is cute.

This. Follow the training scale implicitly for the next 2 years for sure, but all the way up the levels too, obviously, but adhere to it like glue for at least the next 2 years so it becomes thoroughly ingrained into both of you.

Another phrase for what you're describing is he's BEHIND THE BIT... which means, he is actually behind your leg instead of in front of it. This is a rehab horse. You said he has issues, obviously created by a previous rider being a bit rough in the hands and lazy in the seat and legs. I've been through this also with a young stallion who was manhandled roughly. Took me a while to teach him to get forward in front of the leg.

Ensure your shoulders are even and relaxed. Any tension in your trapezius muscles cascades down your arms, into your hands, and straight into his mouth. Additionally, tension in your traps, also cascades down your spine and into your hips, thus your legs right clear down to your heels making for wiggly lower legs that bang and thump around on the horse's side. Tense hips cannot follow the horse's movement and shortens the horse's stride making it choppy and uneven. Thus, learn utter relaxation and acute sensitivity to your own body and you will develop a quiet seat and hands and this is VERY much required (demanded, actually) for a horse who's headed to the FEI.

For now, what you want him to learn is his nose is just slightly ahead of the vertical as that is the truly correct position - but this is developed via LEG and SEAT and HINDQUARTERS. Don't attempt to fix this with your hands. Do it purely through your seat and legs, which I think that is what you were describing you were trying to do, so that is good, just keep persisting and developing it more.

I would suggest long, low, and very forward and I do mean REALLY actively forward for at least the next 3 months with only short periods in a standard length of rein throughout each session. As you shorten the rein, apply your legs and ask for a quicker pace - not running along, although yes he will do that momentarily until he regains some balance via your half-halt, so some patience is required here and encouragement and lots of praise, but eventually he'll start to offer an active hindleg instead of a running-along. He will soon learn that a shorter rein actually means he needs more activity (aka impulsion from the hindquarter) and this is the precursor for all things FEI and yes, FEI training starts at ground 0. You have a stallion here, so I'm presuming you are anticipating him to be an FEI candidate right... otherwise why else is he a stallion.

When he is long, low and forward, don't allow him on the forehand. Keep his hindleg active and underneath himself (via your legs). I am not describing rollkur (just to clarify). You want him to learn to use his abdominals to lift his back and thus this is what develops his entire topline. He will get tired easily with this. Youngsters can only take this very difficult work for 3-5-10 minutes MAX. You will know he is getting tired when it gets hard for him to stay off his forehand. Frequent walk breaks on a long rein to the buckle, but even at the walk, insist he move through from behind and underneath himself and round. Beyond the walk breaks, any change of length of rein and pace offers a break from whatever he was doing.

While you're doing all of the above, perform it with all your standard Level 1 and 2 movements - except collection... I would back off collection for the time being as he must have the impulsion and in-front-of-your leg theory down pat and thoroughly ingrained. But everything else - leg yield, shoulder in, haunches in, half-loops and circles, transitions, all done via long-low-round and actively forward underneath himself.

Walk breaks - means you have to do some yoga, so you don't get a break. You personally stretch yourself out - chest up out, bring your shoulders up, then drop them, pinch your shoulders blades together in your back, then pinch your boobs together, up and drop, up and drop. Deep breath, then stretch your R shoulder to your L, and vice verse. Lift one leg off the saddle and rotate your toes inwards until you feel pressure... then flop them outwards until you feel pressure and back to correct position again, repeat on other side. This realigns your body. Deep breath in until you pressurize your lungs, then exhale slowly. Now you're ready to work again, and off you go.

My point - is make doubly sure you are not contributing to the problem.

Large circles, big loopy serps, light quickly-released half-halts before each corner and any time he loses balance. A half-halt offers him a moment to regroup. Actually a word on half-halts. You can accomplish the same half-halt via your lower Lumbar spine as you can via the mouth. Just stop your lower back momentariily from following the horse's movement. He'll feel it right away and think, "?whaaat??" and he'll pause for half a stride. Half-halt accomplished. Praise. You can start it by simultaneously doing it with your back and hand, but eventually transition it all to your back. This is the precursor for all transitions being done through your seat and lower spine and off the horse's mouth. All my FEI horses are trained so that I'm lightly holding the reins, but ALL transitions, including rein-back are via my spine, seat and legs. Nothing through hands, except turning the nose in proper bend for the movement being performed. Pirouette, for example, is no hand at all. All seat and leg. Your rein is merely showing his nose the flexion. All riders need to learn to use the entire length of their hip and leg, and to stay off their heels which is actually a correction. My horses know, when I apply my heel I'm reprimanding them for not responding to my LEG. But, on the flip side, in all fairness to the horse, he can't possibly be sensitive to the leg when they're constantly flopping around down there. So, for a rider who has floppy legs, fix your tense tight hip first, which corrects floppy legs, and then your horse sensitizes to the calf and you don't need the heel or spur any more. Easy.

He's growing. Horses that are growing have awkward balance so we must remain sensitive to that.

If you can, take him out on easy-peasy trail rides a couple times a week (can he go out with a couple geldings??) where he's not asked to do anything dressagey so he can walk out or trot out with a long stride and stretch out any muscles that may have tightened.

Also mix it up with a day here and there with just the work being some lungeing with a surcingle and cavesson and encourage him to put his nose on the ground (no riding that day - gives his back a break and enables him to stretch the back muscles by putting his nose on the ground, thus making him a better under saddle the following day), but make sure it's on extra long lunge line so the stress on his inside joints is less extreme.

To mix it up even further, teach himself and yourself how to long-line, teach him to leg yield on the line... anything you can do under saddle you can do on the long-line with you on the ground and I do mean ANYTHING. This will pay off in spades when you want to teach him to piaffe and passage as he will be used to someone beside him on the ground directing his feet.

Avoid training at the walk under saddle which will encourage him to get behind your leg and thus behind the bit.

I could probably think of other things you can do to help him, but this is enough for now.

[webmistress32]

thanks for all of this.

I am working on this tonight. :-)

[webmistress32]

and ps: where in Chicagoland can I find a trainer to teach me this:

"All my FEI horses are trained so that I'm lightly holding the reins, but ALL transitions, including rein-back are via my spine, seat and legs. Nothing through hands, except turning the nose in proper bend for the movement being performed. Pirouette, for example, is no hand at all. All seat and leg. Your rein is merely showing his nose the flexion. All riders need to learn to use the entire length of their hip and leg, and to stay off their heels which is actually a correction."

[Bogey2]

I know this might be controversial, but I would suggest taking contact with his mouth. He needs to be able to ride into contact. And he won't know that unless you offer your hand first. Now, the strength of the contact is where you'll have to feel your way. If you can always feel the 2 corners of his mouth, that would be the starting point. From there, since for him to 'fill' the rein/contact and make it authentic, he has to keep coming through from behind.
not controveraial at all..this is what I had to do with my natural born curler.

[TickleFight]

and ps: where in Chicagoland can I find a trainer to teach me this:

"All my FEI horses are trained so that I'm lightly holding the reins, but ALL transitions, including rein-back are via my spine, seat and legs. Nothing through hands, except turning the nose in proper bend for the movement being performed. Pirouette, for example, is no hand at all. All seat and leg. Your rein is merely showing his nose the flexion. All riders need to learn to use the entire length of their hip and leg, and to stay off their heels which is actually a correction."

Sorry, I can't make any recommendations, but you don't need to be an FEI level rider to learn to ride this way. In fact, if you have good basics, you can learn to ride this way regardless of instruction.

I'll give you a few pointers to get you started.

First, you must develop an absolutely strong, balanced, and independent seat. The best way to do this is to find a minimalist, close-contact saddle that does not put you in a predetermined position (look at the Stubben Tristan Special, or Catherine Haddad's new Genesis) and drop your stirrups. It may take you a week of riding without them, or it may take a month, but even after your seat is confirmed you should still ride without stirrups once per week. Look up, keep your shoulders back and wide, and do not worry if you have to sit behind vertical at first. With increased strength and balance you will be able to sit erectly.

Second: Do not worry about your leg position... just let them hang long and relaxed in the way that feels right for you. Once you are confirmed in the saddle and reintroduce the stirrups you will have much more control over where your legs are.

As for your hands: While you are developing your seat shorten your reins as much as you can, and allow your arms and hands to be more extended toward the horses mouth. This does not mean more contact, just shorter reins and more elongated, straitened arms. Keep your hands close together. If you have trouble remembering this then keep them touching for a while. Never bring your hands back towards your body. When asking your horse to bend you may bring your inside rein to the inside, or raise it a couple inches. NEVER allow your outside rein to move inside across the shoulders our outside towards the wall. Your horse must learn to actively seek contact with the outside rein by being pushed with the inside leg.

This may feel awkward and uncomfortable for a while. It will feel like you have nothing to hold on to, and possibly like your horse is rushing through your aids. This is normal, so don't get frustrated. With practice and increased strength and proficiency you will learn to control and rebalance this energy through half-halts and downward transitions. Again, these are to be accomplished with the legs and seat.

Good Luck!

[MEHDressage]

My new horse has been with me for a few weeks now; he is a 12 year old, Hanoverian x Oldenburg, 16.3 hh., and is confirmed at third level, but still needs balanced changes. We bought him sight-unseen, and the first time I rode him, I noticed that (since he is extremely flexible/ supple and loose) he sometimes will stretch his neck, but his poll would often begin to slightly curl inward. He is forward with his tempo and momentum, but needs to be forward with the contact.

During my first lesson, we worked on an exercise that helps the horse to become more straight throughout his body. I did not worry about what his head was doing during my ride, but how straight his body felt. In the exercise, you begin on the rail, and leg yield a few steps towards the center of the arena. After you leg yield in a few steps, you ask the horse to move forward from your leg on a straight line, and repeat the exercise on the next long side. This exercise enables you to develop an even support system with all of your aids and encourages the horse to stay straight. If done correctly, you should start to be able to feel as though you can steer and move your horse with your outside aids. This also helps with the balance of the topline and poll.

To help specifically with encouraging your horse to reach more forward with his head and neck, it is extremely important that you give him room to do this. It helps to really focus on moving your hands more up towards his ears, as this movement reinforces the thought of reaching. Reward him if done correctly!

Since this is not a specific movement that can be taught within a few days to a week, you will need to have patience and consistency with your instructions. This training will also help your horse to build new muscles and stamina, so walk breaks are crucial; if he completes your request, reward him with a pat and a brief break - remember that this is a training and conditioning program for an athlete. These walk breaks will also help him stay mentally healthy and develop a willingness to work and please.

Hope this helps and good luck!

[Kwill]

Great responses. I am always so envious of the body coordination and control that upper level riders have. Something for a few of us to strive for!

I think for most people, instruction is imperative to achieve what Rodawn is describing. Even the most self-aware riders need to have a different eye to improve.

I think Pilates excersises are especially helpful to strengthen the core muscles, leading to an independent seat.

[EqTrainer]

Regarding the hand that follows the head no matter what, the implication is that the horse is hiding from the bit. No, he hasnt read any books, he does not know he is supposed to chase it out. He is not being naughty and therefore should not be punished by a hand that does not give. In fact, they normally learn to do this because they have been ridden with the concept that they are supposed to "give" to the bit, by someone who thinks you "take" contact.

In the end the correction depends on what you want. If you want the horse "on the bit" then by all means, take a hold of him no matter where he puts his head and show him he cannot get away from the bit no matter what he does. Eventually he will "get on it", he will brace his mouth against it (on his bars, or his tongue, or his lips) and hang onto it because he can mitigate the pain factor this way. OR he might decide to begin rearing up, or bucking, or bolting, or sticking his tongue out, or head flipping, any of the evasions a horse demonstrates when his energy is going backwards. I am sure there are horses who are exceptions, I have never ridden one, I have ridden lots of horses who are "on the bit" and quite frankly, I would rather not hold a horse up who thinks the bit is now the "end point" of his energy. But each to their own, we all like a different feel on the end of the rein.

If you want your horse to learn to chase the bit * actively * forward and happy doing it, you have to make him like it. Horses like what feels good and will happily seek and sustain what feels good to them. There are a lot of posts here that describe how to do that and they are very well written, sympathetic to the horses point of view. The continuing thread in those posts is that the horses head is not the problem, and riding his head will not fix it. It is a balance issue or a training issue. The horse who does it naturally has learned, for whatever reason, he can balance easier there. You have to convince him you can show him a better place. The training issue is exactly that, the horse has been trained to do it, you must convince him he can change and make it in his best interest to do so.

[luchiamae]

You must ride the nose out with the legs.