Vaule of a trained horse

[Ange]

First, this is NOT a horse for sale.

I am looking around another prospect to train for a few years and sell. I ran across a Morgan who meets my requirements (age, termprament, hind end movement), but I don't know if he is a wise investment. How much is a competitive 3rd level Morgan, 15.3-16.0 hh worth (assuming the market does not continue to free-fall)? I know the value the of a wb/tb cross or Arab at that level, but not Morgan. Does anyone know that market?

Thanks in advance.

Ange
www.sfdressage.com

[Dixon]

Not very valuable.

[inca]

I disagree because a COMPETITIVE 3rd level horse (assuming it is sound) is worth a decent amount regardless of breed.

[palomino_grl]

I was just talking w/ a very knowledgeable friend last week who was saying that Morgans make nice dressage horses. I am a dressage rookie, so for whatever it's worth... :lol:

[gamecock43]

A friend of mine worked very hard trying to introduce morgans to dressage. She believed that once people noticed the breed, the morgan would become one of the 'it' horses to have for the sport. She brought a youngster up to 3rd level (I think he was 5-6 yrs), and had a 3 (4?) yr old excelling at 1st level with limitless potential before she quit the sport and sold the horses. I truly believe morgans could be big contributors to the sport if a well known, talented rider would showcase them, and get people thinking. Personally, I am starting to really appreciate smaller horses, and recognize their value from a security standpont. From a parental perspective, I would prefer my daughter ride a smaller morgan than a giant warmblood.

[ESG]

I agree that many Morgans have huge potential as competitive dressage mounts. I've seen a couple that I'd have given a major body part to have.

As far as getting a breed "recognized" via a BNR/BNT, however, don't look for it to happen. Lendon Gray showed my favorite horse of all time, Seldom Seen, to more wins in the GP ring than most warmbloods will ever see, and he was a Connemara/TB cross. Didn't do much for Connemaras or their crosses in terms of national acceptance of Connies as the new "it" breed for dressage.

[not again]

A horse is not an investment. Stocks, bonds, bank accounts and real estate are investments. A horse is a pleasure item, except on a working ranch or breeding farm. If a Morgan suits your program and gives you advancement through the levels and is a joy to be around, go for it.

[gamecock43]

BNR/BNT? new to horsey websites and horsey acronyms. But your story resonates, if a world famous rider like Grey cant get recognition for a breed, then theres no hope for the lil guy. But I stand by my remark that morgans do have the potential to go all the way, and why not turn a few heads while your doing it? :lol:

[class]

I know the value the of a wb/tb cross or Arab at that level, but not Morgan. Does anyone know that market?

i would think that a third level morgan would be comparable in value to a third level arab. even though i think the morgan would be a better dressage mount and have more potential. most of the morgans that i am familiar with seem more like the baroque breeds and should have more value than arabs (for dressage) but that just doesn't seem to be the case in reality.

[Rusty Stirrup]

BNR/BNT=big name rider/big name trainer. Anyone who has spent any time with Morgans know they can do anything. And I agree about investments. Look at all the people who got caught flipping houses.

[quietann]

Hm, interesting thread since I have a new Morgan mare, Mythic Feronia, of my very own :) She has schooled through second level dressage before I bought her, and certainly could go higher, but she really loves to jump, so I will use her in low-level horse trials.

I don't know much about the market for dressage horses, but given what I am seeing as I board in a dressage barn (for only two and a half more weeks!), I think they *could* be very sought after with the right "push" from AMHA and a few BNRs. Will it happen? I don't know.

Just based on my own girl and a few tales I've heard from other people with Morgans, people come to appreciate them over time. My girl certainly has picked up some fans in the past few weeks, but she is VERY different from the other horses in the barn (starting with her size; at 15 hands she is really petite! She wears a size 72 blanket and the next smallest horse wears a 78; the average size of the other horses in the barn is about 17.1 hands.)

People don't seem to know much about Morgans. They are surprised that Feronia isn't "high stepping" -- she has a huge engine behind, but it all goes into going *forward*. She is also super-smart, gets bored easily, and yes she can be a bit hot. But she is also very willing. Most Morgans are easy keepers and many can go barefoot. I see huge advantages over WBs, for all these reasons, especially for lower-level riders and those of us who are of "a certain age" or are intimidated by huge horses.

In a dressage arena, you only have a few minutes to show off your horse. (It wouldn't help me, showing dressage, that Feronia is a deep dark Palomino!) Morgans grow on a person, and it's possible that a dressage judge won't get enough exposure to them to really come to appreciate them.

Anyone who wants to know more about Morgans as dressage horses should take a look at http://morgandressage.org/

As for Lendon Grey -- no, the TB/Connemara cross didn't pick up a lot of fans in the dressage world as a result of Seldom Seen's accomplishments, but the eventers latched onto this cross.

[sunkistbey]

I showed a Morgan stallion through 2nd level and if I had gotten him younger (pre- Western, driving, hunt seat training etc) he probably could have gone higher. Very cool, tough horses.
I wouldn't look for help from the AMHA though. When I was showing this guy, dressage was considered a "miscellanous" division. No year end awards, no real incentive to promote the breed as a dressage horse. They were much more interested in promoting saddle seat, hunt seat and driving.
I agree that a horse like OP's could be worth some money, but it would take the right person at the right time.
Pretty iffy investment.

[harmonymorgans]

I know I breed for them! My coming four year old stud has excellent balance, a wonderful intelligent and calm mind, NATURAL collection and as far as the comment about AWS, or testing, my boys sire is AWS approved and is a proven sire of Sport Horses. Their are certain lines in the Morgan breed that really excel as sport horse, some are better as Park saddle and well, some CAN and do, do it all.. I'd be happy to share this information with anyone, please drop me a line . . . (I'm not looking to sell you a breeding, I'm happy to share this information and let you make your own decision) Morgans are more suitable mounts for the average size rider. They are sensitive but not psychotic, easy to train (its BRED INTO THEM) they love people and want to please, they are not very resistant, yes- I just said that, and will work 150% of the time. They think, have great personalities, which of course means you need to pay attention to them. The love and dedication you recieve back from them makes them worth their weight in gold. Nothing really compares . .

I've had everything from Hannoverians, TB's and crosses, I will never go back to those breeds again now that I've experienced the relationship and the passion of the Morgan Horse.

Suzette Boisselle
harmonymorgans@yahoo.com

[Bodine]

Morgans are definitely becoming more popular for dressage. Check out the Morgan Dressage Association - www.morgandressage.org There are quite a few people out there actively promoting the breed for dressage. It will take some time for it to catch on more, but I think a 3rd level morgan would be in demand in certain circles.

[poltroon]

I think Morgans make fabulous dressage horses.

However, I would agree that value-wise, the breeding will always affect the value. With a 3rd level WB, people will be thinking it still is going up. With a 3rd level Morgan, they'll think he may be topped out.

The way you'll get Morgans - or any other breed - to the top $$ will be to have BNRs ride them, get them winning at I-2 and GP, get lots of press - and then make many babies that do the same thing.

Until then, people will ooh and ahh over your fluke Morgan dressage horse.

The good thing is that a Morgan is a very affordable and yet very credible mount for someone on a budget.

Edited to add:

There are some lovely Connemaras out there doing well at dressage and eventing, but there aren't that many in the US - maybe 3,000 total pure and half-breds. Most of them are ponies and nearly all are under 15 h. When someone campaigns them, quite a few get to the 4th level range and some have gone higher. So even though people may go looking for a Connemara, there may not be anything suitable to look at in their local area. By contrast, people breed Morgans all over the US, and there are far more of them to choose from.

[ASB Stars]

The Morgan world has been super proactive in suppoting sport horse disciplines within, and outside of their breed shows. The horses have wonderful aptitiude for the work, and you do see some that are competitive at open shows.

I'd look at that horse no differently than any other prospect- do they have correct gaits, conformation, and a nice attitude, etc?

[Ange]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, this is a good prospect, and this is what I do (in addition to my teaching and training business) -- I buy a youngster every couple of years, train it, and sell it. So I'm not thinking of myself for a long-term owner, just an owner for 2-3 years who will make sure a horse is correctly schooled, shown the world (shows, bomb-proofing, hacking out, etc.). So yes, this IS an investment horse, but I'm worried about the return on the investment. His price is about 2-4K lower than a comparable temperament/conformation/talented wb cross. Just want to make sure he will be worth enough when I'm finished. It's always a gamble, which I know, but with the stock market and housing market doing what they are doing, I'd rather invest in a young horse. I at least get to pet my investment :-).

[Tory Relic]

A horse is not an investment. Stocks, bonds, bank accounts and real estate are investments. A horse is a pleasure item, except on a working ranch or breeding farm. If a Morgan suits your program and gives you advancement through the levels and is a joy to be around, go for it.

They certainly *can* be an investment, and I certainly wouldn't limit it to a breeding farm or a "working" ranch (whatever the heck you mean by that). I know plenty of people who buy and resale project horses make a decent return on them. I've done it myself but I was neither on a breeding farm or working ranch when I did it.

[rabicon]

http://www.equine.com/Horses/ad_details.aspx?lid=534932&search_id=b0fa6cd6-cd3e-4673-bdcc-393291d4c3d1

Look at all this morgan has done and it should give you an idea on the price, she is 27,500.00

http://www.equine.com/Horses/ad_details.aspx?lid=598191&search_id=895765eb-fd79-4b5f-abd7-e55740da765b

or this one, its schooling third is all it says and has no pic. but 20,000.00

My guy is 1/2 morgan and he is very sensitive to me and the slightest move which is nice for dressage and he does get very frustrated with me if I do something wrong yet is a gentlemen about tell me with just a tail swish. :lol: He was a trail horse for 13 years of his life and has been training dressage for the last 3months. He scored a 62% at our last show in intro B and a 66.5 at the show before in intro A. Once his canter is balanced we will move up to training level. I've been told by a BNT that he had potential for 3rd level but probably not higher because of his age and having the time to train him to that level, but if he was younger he would have gone so much farther.

[Ambrey]

They certainly *can* be an investment, and I certainly wouldn't limit it to a breeding farm or a "working" ranch (whatever the heck you mean by that). I know plenty of people who buy and resale project horses make a decent return on them. I've done it myself but I was neither on a breeding farm or working ranch when I did it.

I would guess a working ranch means a ranch with livestock, on which horses are used for ranch work :)

[flshgordon]

I disagree because a COMPETITIVE 3rd level horse (assuming it is sound) is worth a decent amount regardless of breed.

I would agree with this statement. But I think more than the price, you're going to have a harder time finding a buyer, just because many people would not want to take the chance on an "off" breed. If it's really competitive, you'll have a better shot at it but while you said it's 2-4K less than a WB at this young, green stage, that deficit will significantly widen with similar age and performance records between a WB and a morgan.

[Arabian Knights]

Personally, I would be very interested in a Morgan trained to 3rd level. The price issue would be the same for a Morgan as it would be for a 3rd level trained Oldenburg or Hanovarian- and that issue is either I can afford the price range or I can't:dead:. I got my Arab b/c I love an intelligent horse and she is the perfect size to learn on. I hope when we show other riders will see how well we work together. Perhaps it will never bring national attention to the breed, but slow local attention is enough.

It is ridiculous the way everyone just assumes that your horses aptitude is based solely on his breed. :confused:
This is especially true of dressage. If dressage is to live up to it's name, which means training, then the system should work for all horses. If what we do in the sport of dressage is in anyway related to the classical way of riding it should improve our horses as the training level increases.

[ESG]

http://www.equine.com/Horses/ad_details.aspx?lid=534932&search_id=b0fa6cd6-cd3e-4673-bdcc-393291d4c3d1

Look at all this morgan has done and it should give you an idea on the price, she is 27,500.00

Actually, I think that's a fairly high price for an 11 year old, First level, off-breed "hony". She's only 14.3, and doing first level, for that kind of money? Good luck to the sellers.

http://www.equine.com/Horses/ad_details.aspx?lid=598191&search_id=895765eb-fd79-4b5f-abd7-e55740da765b

or this one, its schooling third is all it says and has no pic. but 20,000.00

Yeah - a five year old, "schooling 3rd" (body of ad actually says "schooling to third level", which means he can do some Second level stuff :winkgrin: ), no show record at all, and a 6 out of 10 temperament? Um, yeah. :rolleyes: Oh, and you have to contact the owner for stills or a "movie"?!? Wants $20K for her horse, but is too lazy to post photos.......nice. :rolleyes:

[quietann]

For the record, I paid $12,000 for Feronia. She is 10, and as I said before was doing well at training level, just starting to show first level, and schooling second level. She hasn't been shown much in USDF recognized shows but was getting good scores in schooling shows. She has enthusiasm and sensitivity for lateral work that is absolutely to die for.

But I mainly paid attention to her because of her record in low-level unrecognized horse trials... 3 firsts and 2 seconds in 5 times out! She gets bored with a flatwork-only routine, and her former owner/breeder isn't big on jumping. On Monday, I jumped her for the first time since I got her 2 1/2 weeks ago, and she was so thrilled to be jumping again! Little tiny stuff but she loved it.

[AMDressage]

I disagree because a COMPETITIVE 3rd level horse (assuming it is sound) is worth a decent amount regardless of breed.


I agree with Inca. Yes, WBs are the hot thing now and days, but I would think that any horse doing 3rd level competitvely and scoring well would be worth their weight in gold. I would probably price the horse in the $15-25,000 range. Might seem steep as it's an "off-breed" (I hate that nasty term), but you either pay for training later on or up front for ANY breed.

[rabicon]

Actually, I think that's a fairly high price for an 11 year old, First level, off-breed "hony". She's only 14.3, and doing first level, for that kind of money? Good luck to the sellers.



Yeah - a five year old, "schooling 3rd" (body of ad actually says "schooling to third level", which means he can do some Second level stuff :winkgrin: ), no show record at all, and a 6 out of 10 temperament? Um, yeah. :rolleyes: Oh, and you have to contact the owner for stills or a "movie"?!? Wants $20K for her horse, but is too lazy to post photos.......nice. :rolleyes:


That's why I posted the two ads. The first is only at 1st level with many accomplishments up to that but 27,000.00 :eek: and the 2nd theres no photos, no record, no nothing and its 20,000.00 :eek: so I would think one that is trained correctly and does really nice at 3rd level should sell up there with the warmbloods price ranges.

[pattnic]

That's why I posted the two ads. The first is only at 1st level with many accomplishments up to that but 27,000.00 :eek: and the 2nd theres no photos, no record, no nothing and its 20,000.00 :eek: so I would think one that is trained correctly and does really nice at 3rd level should sell up there with the warmbloods price ranges.

Honestly, I think these ads are more geared towards individuals who already HAVE Morgans - especially the first one. I'm sure there are a lot of people who can't imagine paying that much for a Morgan, but in the Morgan world, it's not so unrealistic.

I'm not sure why Dixon said "not very valuable." It's not at all the horse would not be very valuable; it just means that when it comes time to sell, you might have to branch out a bit from your traditional marketing, and try to target the Morgan world.

I would say that a Morgan who is competitive at Third is worth more than an Arab or QH, but because they are not the "breed of fancy," you likely won't get the same money that you would from a warmblood - unless you target Morgan lovers as your sell-to audience.

I have two Morgans; I hope to be competitive at Second with my gelding (time is the biggest issue), and if I were to sell my mare in the Morgan world (nevermind that she will never be sold at all), there is no way that she would go for any less than $15,000... quite likely more.

[canticle]

Actually, I think that's a fairly high price for an 11 year old, First level, off-breed "hony". She's only 14.3, and doing first level, for that kind of money? Good luck to the sellers.
With bloodlines like that she will have no problem selling. Her height is ideal and her pedigree is top-notch. She will be snatched up by a Morgan person, not by a beginner who doesn't know anything about the breed.

[mrs.smith]

[QUOTE=rabicon;3132326]http://www.equine.com/Horses/ad_details.aspx?lid=534932&search_id=b0fa6cd6-cd3e-4673-bdcc-393291d4c3d1

Look at all this morgan has done and it should give you an idea on the price, she is 27,500.00

QUOTE]

wow! that is one bred mare .......and she does dressage too? :eek: She's worth her purchase price to Morgan people as a broodmare, let alone the other stuff.

[Roan]

wow! that is one bred mare .......and she does dressage too? :eek: She's worth her purchase price to Morgan people as a broodmare, let alone the other stuff.ALICE!

Long time no hear :D

I agree, super Morgan mare and that's a decent price for her. Gah, if I could find a Lipizzaner like that with that price tag . . .

Eileen

[quietann]

That was one of the first things I noticed when I started looking for a sport Morgan; the ones who were being marketed towards Morgan enthusiasts who would be showing at Class A Morgan shows are MUCH more expensive. This may just be a carryover from the saddleseat side of the Morgan world, where a very good saddleseat horse (especially a park horse) can be quite costly. Also, a well-bred mare who might make a nice broodmare will bring a premium. Outside of that rarefied world, most "ordinary Morgans" without a lot of specialized training seem to be priced in the mid to high 4 figures.

Here is another link that will give non-Morgan folks some idea about pricing for sport Morgans: http://sportmorgan.com/sales/index.html

[Portia]

In any breed you have to take into account the differences between marketing the horse to people who show in that breed versus those who show in non-breed specific disciplines. $27,000 may be too much for someone who is just looking for a "dressage horse," while it may be very reasonable for someone who is looking for a Morgan who can do dressage as well as maybe compete in other Morgan-breed classes or can make lovely little Morgan babies. :)

[vanheimrhorses]

i would think it would be worth whatever any other non WB breed would be worth, but then if it is a superstar mover and winning at third level it doesnt matter what breed, however as a parent I would lean toward a quiet safe breed if I had a child wanting to show dressage and there are plenty of injured riders no longer wanting any type of hot horses and looking for safe reliable horses and I know that morgans are noted for steady dispositions and being safe