Important for All of a division to be judged by same judge?

[WeDoItAll]

Here's the situation - I work with a group that is putting on a dressage show youth riders, mostly training and 1st level with a few higher and a few lower. I am not the overall organizer, but am a critical player and have some influence.

Last year, the night before the show (literally) I discovered they had mixed the judging within divisions/tests. In other words, some of those riding Training Test 2 were judged by Judge Jones in Arena 1, and some were judged by Judge Smith in Arena 2. We got it all straightened out and everything was fine the next day. (EDITED: the placings are based on test ridden - IE Training Test 1 is one division for placings; Training Test 4 is another division for placings).

Yesterday, I sent a reminder message to the scheduler (same one as last year) to make certain everyone in a division rode before the same judge. The response was, where does it say this in the rules?

So -- how should I respond? I see it as an equity issue. So, fellow COTHers, what say you?

If you agree with me - can you give me some language to use other than to say "but it's not fair to do it that way". Makes me sound like a whiner ...

[poltroon]

I think it's okay if you have different ribbon divisions with different judges - ie, Open 1st/2 with one judge, Am 1st/2 with the other, but you can't get an appropriate class ranking if you have people in the same ribbon group not judged by the same judge.

[lorilu]

It's really not fair to split groups that are competing for the same class ribbons (ie, splitting a test group), but we often have TL1 and 3 in front of one judge,and TL2 and 4 before the other judge.... then TL championship is decided.....

[yaya]

According to USEF rules, separate divisions judged by different judges MUST be given separate awards. You cannot hold different divisions under different conditions and put them all together to award ribbons.

From the 2008 rule book:

DR126.1 All classes must be listed in the prize list and may be divided into separate divisions or sections based on qualifications, age or other eligibility of horses or riders. Divisions or sections of a class are considered to be a separate “class” only if listed as such in the prize list. Divisions or sections of a class may be held in different rings and judged by different judges. When divisions or sections are held under different conditions (i.e, different ring or judges), separate awards must be given.

[WeDoItAll]

This is exactly what I was looking for -- I knew it made sense; wasn't certain that it was addressed somewhere. I really appreciate your assistance -- I am still very interested in everyone's vote and comments.

[Kementari]

I would think it potentially quite unfair to have one division (defining that as one group of people competing for the same set of ribbons) to be judged by more than one judge. While in theory there is a standard for each mark (so a 5 is a 5 is a 5), we all know that different judges score differently. A 60 from Judge A may be a 65 from Judge B - how could it be equitable to put those scores up against each other for a final ranking?

At any rate:
DR126 Requirements for Dressage Competition Management.
1. All classes must be listed in the prize list and may be divided into separate divisions or sections based on qualifications, age or other eligibility of horses or riders. Divisions or sections of a class are considered to be a separate “class” only if listed as such in the prize list. Divisions or sections of a class may be held in different rings and judged by different judges. When divisions or sections are held under different conditions (i.e, different ring or judges), separate awards must be given. ...

ETA: I got distracted - yaya beat me to it. ;)

[ESG]

But there aren't "divisions" in dressage, as there are in hunters; there are levels. And nowhere in the rules does it state that each level must be judged by the same judge. Good freaking luck with that one - the judges would stage a revolt if one of them were responsible for judging all the Intro, or all the training level. In hunters as well, the same judge doesn't necessarily judge the entire division. The classes are all pinned separately, so the rule quoted doesn't apply.

[Kementari]

But there aren't "divisions" in dressage, as there are in hunters; there are levels. And nowhere in the rules does it state that each level must be judged by the same judge. Good freaking luck with that one - the judges would stage a revolt if one of them were responsible for judging all the Intro, or all the training level. In hunters as well, the same judge doesn't necessarily judge the entire division. The classes are all pinned separately, so the rule quoted doesn't apply.

No, the OP said, "the placings are based on test ridden - IE Training Test 1 is one division for placings; Training Test 4 is another division for placings." She is using "division" like "class," which I think is where the confusion lies. :yes:

It sounds like a small show where everyone in each test is competing together, so, yes, the same judge needs to judge all the, say, Training 1s or Training 2s or whatever (but the judge who does T1 does NOT need to be the same as the one who does T2, of course). If there were, for example, 30 riders doing T1, so it was split into two sections of 15 (with two sets of ribbons awarded), then a different judge could do each of the sections, however.

[PiaffePlease]

I agree that you can have different judges if the division is split and seperate ribbons are given. But if the riders are competing for the same set of ribbons, but have different judges, thats unfair. Judges judge differently. Judge A might be more forgiving, and therefore giving higher scores, and Judge B might be more strict, and her scores could be lower. If something like this happens then, Sally Jo (who's circles were shaped like eggs, and her horse just jogged along) could place higher than Jennie Sue (who had her mount forward and her pattern accurate).

All in all, its a bad idea, it could tick alot of people off.

[~Freedom~]

One class in one level has to be judged by one judge. A different class even within the same level can be judged by a different judge.

ie TR test 1...Judge A...TR test 2 Judge B

Even if the same people are competing, I see no problem with the above even if the scores from all the TR tests were put together to determine the Champion and Reserve. This is done all the time where I am. The advantage is that sure you will get different viewpoints from different judges and to me that is a GOOD thing.

How often do we see one judge place one rider ALL the time on top. Not saying that judge is wrong but I personally rather get input from a variety of judges.

[Trixie's mom]

this actually happened to me last summer. i was the third ride in a class (first level test 4). after my ride the judge decided she was not well and stopped judging. another judge stepped in and finished the last 5 rides. the class was given two sets of awards...one for the first judge's rides, and another for the second judge's rides. this was a rated show.

[Janet]

I think the confusion is the term "division", which in the dressage rules means a subset of a "class"- wth its own set of ribbons, and in other context means a GROUP of classes leading to a championship.

Multiple different classes (each with its own set of ribbons) within a "division" can be judged by different judges. But each division within a class (each set of ribbons) must use the same judge(s).