Paying your dues [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

retreadeventer

Apr. 6, 2008, 07:05 PM

Well...only slightly curmudgeonly, Denny....

I grew up riding in the Pacific Northwest...running my pony up logging trails (the same hills that Amy Tryon uses to condition her Olympic horses today). By the way, the forest we used to gallop through the "jump trails", jumping all that felled timber often without groundlines and with huge drops on backsides or banks so high we could not see the pony's head if we rode down them, in is now several housing developments and a golf course. And suspect it's that way for many in our age range today. I was the only English rider in my neighborhood. I rode the other kid's ponies when they wouldn't go. I ached to show over jumps, I made english stirrups for my bareback pad out of haystring and blocks of wood and taught myself to post from a book.

My sister's first horse was an unbroke 4yo wild mare we got for removing her from her blueberry farm pasture where she had been born and raised without human handling. My first horse was a 4yo TB off the track I purchased with my own money at age 14. I didn't even ride anything but a TB or close relative until I came east.

Because there wasn't eventing quite yet out there when I was a kid, there were horse shows, and I did local, then B, then A circuit hunters and equitation - basically because they had nicer jumps! We evented and showed in British Columbia, which was a hotbed of English riding and had more than it's share of Tories who brought sport over with them, and knew a good Thoroughbred from a bad one. Washington state "grew" many very good sporthorses, and not a few have made it onto Olympic Teams. We didn't consciously set out to be "all around horsemen". We just didn't have any other things to ride in.

I wonder if that was not the case for some of the past greats Denny mentioned. There were not as many opportunities for owners with good horses and I would suspicion that many of those good riders raced over timber, etc. because they had owners with capable horses for those disciplines and they basically needed the money. The sporthorse world was small then, very small, and there weren't too many vastly wealthy crazy people willing to breed sport horses or put them in training for a little known niche sport like eventing -- it was much more popular to race them, if they wanted a horse trained over jumps.
I don't think so much that they chose to be all around, as there were different opportunities for sport horse trainers and riders back then, as opposed to now - when events fill the calendar on a weekly and even bi-weekly basis.

Having said that I do agree that paying ones dues does make a difference, but for heaven's sake if you are young and want to event by all means do it now before you get fossilized and can't see a distance any more like me - an old bat!

secretariat

Apr. 6, 2008, 07:26 PM

I understand your point, and agree in principal with your statement for those who have been given the world without working for it.

However, I don't think it's appropriate to condemn all of the younger riders for the sins of some; there are a hell of a lot of them who HAVE paid their dues, are continuing to pay their dues, are contributing to the sport without recompense, and aren't complaining -- they're just busting their asses to do what they can and the best they can.

In my profession (engineering) the young ones are smarter, more perceptive, and better trained than I ever was. As a 60 year old, I'm running like hell to keep up with them -- and having the best (and most productive) time in my whole career because they're pushing me all of the time -- it's tough to lead if you're trailing the pack. As a generation, these kids beat the crap out of my generation, hands down. And that's with more distractions, more temptations, and a drug/alcohol scene that I never would have survived. Bravo!!!

We've got kids who spend a year or more with us, with no pay, just for the priviledge of learning the business from a rider most of you have never heard of. They leave (if they leave -- many stay in the area) with the best group of friends in the whole world, having attained levels they never even dreamed of, as horsemen -- not just riders -- which is the most significant complement that I can give. They can select horses, break them, doctor them, groom them, ride them, punish them, and love them, when appropriate. They work from 5 a.m. to 12 p.m., not because they're asked but because they want to. Example -- we thought we had a new horse last week. The bay Oldenburg recently purchased from Michigan was gone -- he was there when we left at 7:00 p.m. -- and in his stall at 7:00 a.m. was a freshly clipped, well groomed magnificent warmblood. Sam had gone back to the barn at 10:00 p.m. and body clipped him, with small clippers -- because she wanted to, because she cared. And that's more typical than not. AWESOME.

We're proud of our sport, our riders, our grooms, and our horses. And we won't let those bad apples who DON'T earn their spurs spoil it for the rest of us.

Outfox

Apr. 6, 2008, 07:36 PM

You opened up a big can of worms here, Denny.

I guess I'm the curmudgeon.

The truth of the matter is that those kind of riders, today, are looked at as peripheral riders.

Riders, like myself, who compete in multiple horse sports are usually referred to as the "other guy". I can't tell you how many times I've been told at a jumper show that they were impressed to see an eventer that found the deep jumping spots. Or, when out hunting, they were impressed upon you being the only rider with the field master (or better yet, whip-in to the huntsman for several seasons).

Out here in CA, most of the riders are exactly what you are hinting to. All they do is event and train for eventing.

But, if you don't do just that, you are looked down upon for not being committed enough to the sport.

Years ago, Army Generals used to bring their officers foxhunting so that they would start to look at the entire terrain as battle-worthy.

Today, I like to think that we can teach the next generation these same kind of values. But it's not the status quo.

denny

Apr. 6, 2008, 07:47 PM

I`m not talking about bad apples, or about lazy, unmotivated kids. I`m saying that we are all trying to figure out how and why there seems to be an escalating amount of trouble in our sport, and it struck me that one of the reasons--ONE of the reasons--might be that the earlier generations of riders had to learn by the seat of their pants.
For example, out hunting, you`d canter down a slippery hill, and waiting for you at the bottom was a three rail, totally vertical (or leaning toward you) totally solid post and rail line fence. BAM, BAM, CRASH, most of the horses would nail that sucker.
Or being given a horse to school because nobody wanted to ride a rusher/rearer/quitter, whatever, but you took the ride because you so wanted to be good that you`d get on anything.
These are mostly good kids, hard working, motivated, all of that, but in a funny way they are deprived, if this makes sense, deprived of the gift of struggle and fear and screwing up.
My generation had it lots easier than my parent`s (The Depression, World War Two), and they had it easier than the no novacaine, no anesthesia, no motors generation that preceeded them, and so forth.
I`m not saying bring back struggle for the sake of struggle, but I do think sometimes, that the Mike Plumbs, Frank Chapots of the riding world were a product of their times.
.

bip

Apr. 6, 2008, 07:58 PM

I feel like we are asked to specialize earlier and earlier in every aspect of our lives. School, sports, work. I wouldn't be surprised if horse trainers were facing the same pressures.

rideforthelaurels16

Apr. 6, 2008, 08:02 PM

DLee

Apr. 6, 2008, 08:42 PM

<waves hand!> I've paid my dues! I've paid so many dues I'm still at Novice! :(

But seriously, at 46 now, and getting my first (half mustang 3yo greenbroke, non-horsey parents, could you tell?) horse at 10 years old in Idaho, I know paying dues. I started western (trainer? what was that?), showed, 4-H'ed, rodeo queened, discovered Engish, went to the Potomac Horse Center and got my AI, and then spent the next twenty (ack) years or so riding, teaching beginners, riding green (always) horses, etc., trying to make a living while raising two daughters, et al. And living where I did, training was catch as catch can, with clinics etc.

Only NOW (middle age) am I in a place where I am surrounded by more trainers than I've seen in my lifetime, and more financially able to even THINK about seriously competing. And while I know I have years and YEARS of riding behind me, half of me is whispering "you are OLDER and SLOWER and more CHICKEN than you used to be!" Argh. :mad:

But.. (back on topic, small personal vent there, sorry!) ... I do remember back when I was teaching, wondering WHERE were the girls who were like I used to be? Who would do ANYTHING to ride ANYTHING at ANY time of year (blizzard included)? I honestly did not see any in my years and years of teaching. A couple came close, but that was it. I was hoping they were not a thing of the past and I just didn't happen on to them. I wonder.

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 6, 2008, 08:55 PM

I will go even further Denny....it isn't limited to just horses....it is a generational thing (And of course this a big GENERALIZATION). I'm not even that old....but I'm a partner in a law firm and we are seeing a large difference with the current young crop of associates. And I know that other industries are seeing similar trends. These are bright young adults....but they do not want put out the effort of prior generations. Even my generation....you had to pay your dues to make partner...it is part of the game of life. You have to struggle a bit...we all did...but the younger associates don't want it. They want the prestige, they want the money but they don't really want to put in the time and effort.....they may be the smarter ones in my line of work but I can see where that can be a real issue in the horse world. They are willing to work hard but want things spoon fed to them and quick results.

So what I'm saying....it isn't just with horses. I'm also not saying one generation is better then others...but there are some big differences in a way of thinking between the current crop of mid-twenty somethings and below. They bring some really good things but they do think and prioritize things differently then even the generation or two ahead of them. In the corporate worlds...there is a lot of research that has been done.....and some of it scares me and makes even me feel old.

If I can find it...there is a great study given to professors of universities that shows major events in the life time a current collage age students....It can help one realize some of the relative differences in generations.

3horsemom

Apr. 6, 2008, 09:02 PM

how lucky you were to have those experiences. i also was fortunate to be able to hop on my bike and ride to the barn where i spent all day with my friends riding our horses on the beach, swimming in the river and having the time of our lives.
my daughter drives an hour each way to get to the barn. there are no trails because the area is being developed faster than you can imagine. there is a hunt but it is 4 hours away and she really does not want to go by herself. also she only has 1 horse to ride and wants to compete so she takes measured risks with her mare. there is no timber racing or steeplechasing in our area that i know of.
it makes me sad that she will never really have the experience of making the same boneheaded mistakes i made and learning from them. but i have to say, her horse is the better for it.
as much as we lament the passing of the good ol'days, we need to ask ourselves can todays rider be safe eventing at the rates of speed asked of them?
my child moved up to prelim this weekend and i will be the first to say...the kid has to learn to gallop.

etc.

Apr. 6, 2008, 09:06 PM

I think so many kids since the mid-seventies have been brought up to have a "wonderful self esteem" that either they, or their parents, don't want to do anything that they won't be a huge success in. As a result, if something isn't really fun and easy the first time out, they quit. (This is not everyone, but a whole lot.) The self esteem era has done a great deal of damage to the normal American childhood as some of us once knew it.

c_expresso

Apr. 6, 2008, 09:19 PM

Thanks for posting this, Denny - I totally agree. I'm a teenager and I've always aspired to the upper levels and admired these greats, and it just seemed like a no-brainer to dabble in EVERYTHING. It always surprises me when people ONLY do their chosen sport - I am so excited to try some endurance rides, to foxhunt in Virginia, to do everything! Even though eventing is the sport in which I want to go furthest I really try to at least learn a bit about everything - I mean, heck, I've gained some useful insight into my dressage work from reading western training guides, for example. I've never ridden a schooled, trained jumper, not since I first jumped 8 or so years ago. Okay, maybe in some ways that's held me back (not a lot of competing, etc), BUT I can stay put on most any horse. I can bring down the "up" ones. And I think that's a useful skill to have!

You sound like me! :lol: I am a teenager who LOVES to do different sports... I did hunters (recognized), dressage, natural horsemanship and eventing on my first horse... my new guy I do jumpers at A shows and recognized eventing. I want to fox hunt SO BADLY, I just need to find someone to go with! I would love to get a job exercising race horses in the summer. I have ridden western at my friend's house a lot. I LOVE doing different things with horses, different disciplines teach you so much about your horse, and help you do other disciplines.

However I agree with the poster that says it makes you feel like the "outsider" a lot of times.

poltroon

Apr. 6, 2008, 09:22 PM

Frankly, as each discipline becomes more specialized, riders have fewer opportunities to cross train. Trainers in different horse sports not only don't socialize, they have no connections at all. Ask an endurance rider or western rider - heck, probably even a hunter rider - about the pony at the Pan Ams and see if they heard about it.

Where I grew up, I was very lucky to get to ride at all. The barn I was in did h/j and it was a terrific and all-around education. But we didn't have trails available, so we didn't go trail riding there. (I had been trail riding at my earlier barn.) Most of the kids who rode with me probably wouldn't know how to put on a western saddle. They've probably never been to a horse show outside of their discipline.

A lot of these great horsemen grew up with horses in their backyard. Fewer and fewer kids live in places where they can have horses in the backyard or bike over to the barn where they could do chores in exchange for riding lessons. Mom and dad have to drive them, probably at least 30 minutes each way once you count all the driveways etc, and it's hard to interrupt that schedule to learn a new sport.

To build more all-arounders, you have to start with the trainers. The trainers can bring in clinicians who do different sports, introduce their kids to other ideas, take 'em out trail riding or give them lessons bareback.

Jimmy Williams was not just a noted jumper trainer, but a quite accomplished western trainer as well. You saw it in everything he did, as he freely borrowed ideas from one for the other.

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 6, 2008, 09:25 PM

poopoo

Apr. 6, 2008, 09:26 PM

Well one of those "golden oldies" just got really hurt - Ralph Hill. I have a hard time believing that he hasn't "done it all". And another "golden oldie" you referenced, who rode in the MD Hunt Cup and is still competing at the top of eventing today, was quoted in an interview about how the courses are too technical, tricky/unfair, and too stop and go for the horses. Although those varied riding experiences you mentioned are invaluable and complete your riding education, the mechanics of the courses and their terrain are more crucial problems.

denny

Apr. 6, 2008, 09:58 PM

There are lots of pieces to this equation. Riding instinctively is one of them, and those instincts don`t come without lots of experience in lots of situations.
XC course "creep" is obviously another piece.
Teaching`s another.
So is horse selection.
No easy answers to a puzzle this complex, but riding like a cowboy sure gives you a leg up, I do believe.
And there are fewer cowboys these days, both literally and figuratively.

Snapdragon

Apr. 6, 2008, 10:07 PM

I take a different viewpoint on this. Is it paying your dues, or is it being lucky enough to grow up in a time and place (and with parents who support you) when lots of different horse activities were much more easily accessible?

I know quite a few younger riders who work their tails off in eventing, and also do most of the things on Denny's list. They make a lot of sacrifices to do what they do.

ksbadger

Apr. 6, 2008, 10:09 PM

Wonder if it's the kids or the barns that are at fault? I learnt to ride - by the lead rein, bounce up & down until you work out how to post method - in the West of England at a small racing ('chasing) yard that made ends meet with riding "lessons". Mrs. KS learnt to ride at a more structured stables practically on a Dorset beach but still did gymkhana, jumped & fox-hunted.

Even nearly a quarter century later, we arrived in St.Lazare, Quebec,and found similar multi-use barns where you could meet other riders and learn about everything from steeplechasing (the hunt field used to do more betting than the official track), hunter-jumper, eventing, dressage & foxhunting. Mrs. KS got her colours, rode at the Royal Winter Show and ended up running a 40-horse barn.

Ten years further on & the hunt field has been built over, the hunt moved out right out of the province and the local barns all become specialists in one discipline only. The level of expertise available may be higher but, in the context of the sort of all-round experience Denny's talking about - I think not.

denny

Apr. 6, 2008, 10:10 PM

Doesn`t matter HOW you get good, just that you do.
The "ride a thousand horses in a dozen ways" is one way.
If you get the job done some other way, that works.

Gnep

Apr. 6, 2008, 10:12 PM

For example, out hunting, you`d canter down a slippery hill, and waiting for you at the bottom was a three rail, totally vertical (or leaning toward you) totally solid post and rail line fence. BAM, BAM, CRASH, most of the horses would nail that sucker.

Hihihihihi that remains of something, my father horse place had a 4 feed plus wooden fence all around. So after galloping I always tried to save some time. Instead of going althe way through the forest, me and my training buddy poped over that fence and than naturally over the dividing fence because we just did not want to bother opening the gates. If we got caught, it was time for a solid wooping with a saddle girth.
Quiet often popen over the plank fence cost more time, because we nailed the top plank and tore it apart. Fixing time before the old Man noticed it and got the saddle girth out.

But times have changed. Kids would get into horses because their parents were in horses. Hunting was a family affair, my mother hunted, my father hunted and it was natural that their boys hunted, my mother dressage, my father eventing, naturally we did both and as an equalizer stadium jumping. We learned endurance riding from our father, he liked to do rides in the summer, 200 or 300 miles, fun, with the whole camping expieriance. I learned how to drive and farmwork with horses, because of the broodmare test. That was a non professional oporation. The families of my horse friends were the same.
Times have changed, most parents have absolutely nothing to do with horses. They get into horses because of their kid or kids who wants to have a horse. So they buy a horse, than another one, than the pick up and the trailer. Since the parents are not realy horsy, dad would probably like to spent time to beat up a little white ball and mom actually enjoy the horse thing, but does know less than her kid, the kid never learns all the differant sides. The kid decides what it wants to do, dressage, jumping or eventing and so the horse goes to a apropriate stall, with the proper trainer.
Horse is not the family live style and it is not the parents that teach the kid the horse thing, its a trainer, a coach, not mom or dad. Most of the kids vanish when they go to college, horse gets sold, truck gets sold, trailer gets sold, dad is happy he can spent the weekend beating up a little white ball, mom gets a live again, maybe stays in horses, but mostly is glad that she finally can do her own thing.

The kids learn just one thing, never get told, or have parents that will take them to other horse stuff.

It has become just a nother suburbian sport and looking over the wall aint an suburbian trait

Lose That

Apr. 6, 2008, 10:36 PM

Do you guys think that part of this might be the drive be able to "ride anything"? It seems to me that a lot of up-and-comers just want to get to "x" level by "x" time and they are supported often-times in such goals by their parents or whoever, buying them "the right" horse. As opposed to people who have, as a main part of their goal, the desire to be able to ride anything, any type of horse. It seems like a lot of the greats just had to make due with what they had, and maybe eventually the perfect horse came along, and if not it didn't matter because they could ride whatever could athletically do the job. Now it seems like "Oh, you can't get around prelim on this horse because it's too hard/hot/fast/slow/complicated/crazy/etc so we'll just buy you the perfect prelim horse".

Thinking back on a lot of the horse people I've known growing up, going to Stoneleigh and such, I really can't think of many who were so driven to learn to ride anything and everything, mostly just people who wanted the perfect horse to do the job. I think it's easy to be impressed with people who can ride anything and it's even easier to believe that ability is something inherit, but honestly I think it's something can and must be learned, not something you just have.

seeuatx

Apr. 6, 2008, 10:52 PM

Fresh back from my 1st show of the year, and Denny just touched on my pet peeve. I see it often, and this weekend was no exception. Riders showing levels above their skill on a nice horse. The horse goes through the motions, and the rider gets by with a halfway decent score. This is something prevalent in every discipline, and I would venture to guess, every sport.

I teach some beginner level children on the side. It happens time and time again. I get children who have been cantering and jumping that can barely post the trot correctly. I have to explain to the parents why their child has ended up back on the lunge line. Some of them don't come back. Why? Because their child doesn't need the lunge line....they can do it. But, the question is, can they do it right? And if not, then they shouldn't be. There is no belief in the need to earn the right to progress.

I am the product of the above method, and I spent just as many years re-learning the basics because I learned them incorrectly to begin with.

rideforthelaurels16

Apr. 6, 2008, 11:03 PM

Snapdragon, part of the reason I personally did the "diverse" activities on horseback was because I WASN'T in an area or a position to really train in what I wanted to - for a while, the only horses I had access to were barely trained, backyard horses who I would ride pell-mell around (confession - my friends and I would gallop on the grass verge of the road with toy guns totally turned around in the saddles "shooting" each other. we also had to gallop along the road and jump random thing because redneck boys on 4 wheelers would chase us. ughhh, i was fearless ahaha!) I probably had awful eq. BUT I learned how to have a good seat. "Cowboying around" and being really, really driven to ride anything with 4 legs is part of it, for sure.

4Martini

Apr. 6, 2008, 11:07 PM

As kids we got into lots of trouble let loose on horses around a small town. I think parents would get into a lot of trouble these days if their kids were caught (multiple times) illegally swimming their horse in and cantering on beach at Walden Pond... (trailed by angry lifeguards and Japanese tourists with video cameras rolling!)

I love looking back at the pictures of a friend and I sitting in the trunk of my parent's volvo at a horse show. No truck, no trailer - just a 2 hour trail ride there and back (unless we were late, or it was getting dark, then it was a little shorter.) Heck, my parents would have no idea how to get from the barn to the show grounds - they just met us there with water buckets and sandwiches.

First jumps ever were cross country fences on a wild trail ride. "You'll either be good at steering or jumping by the end of this." Turned out I was questionable at both. (Granted these were logs on the ground.) But, as another poster pointed out - the horses might have put up more with our learning on our own- but I think they were in on our evil plots as they always seemed to be having as much fun as we were.

The most amazing thing was probably that I never owned a horse. I did all of this on horses that belonged to neighbors and friends of neighbors! I used to stalk pastures then knock on doors and ask people that since they didn't seem to ride much, maybe they would let me ride their horse. A number of people who I will never forget called a few references and said yes.

I just don't see kids today having the freedom we did - or as many have said the land resources. My parents came to shows to support me. But, they would never have watched a riding lesson to see how I did - maybe to video for me. But, most of my lessons were either worked off, or split worked off and paid for by my parents - so other than time, my activities were not a huge investment for them. (I love my parents for teaching me about hard work and being there for me- and half leasing me a horse the last few years so I had some extra opportunities.) They were not the rail parents I see today. I don't remember any parents like that.

There is so much money in it today that parents want to see a return on their investment. Kids are over commited and ribbons and competition measure which activites are more valuable. We live in a resume society where you're measured completely by what you've done. I hate it when people find out I have a horse and ask what I do with him. I usually feel like I'm in some contest. So, I just tell people I have a pet horse and I don't have to enter the pissing match.

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 6, 2008, 11:16 PM

It is still very possible to ride in various disciplines.... As a kid, I rode anything and everything I could.....polo ponies, cow ponies, LOTS of bucking ponies. I took public transportation, bummed rides and often walked a couple of miles to get to the barn (I'm not kidding..but I did live with beautiful weather so no walking up hill in snow)! I could ride a buck better then most cowboys. In college mucked stalls and taught lessons. After school, worked for a fox hunt, eventers, Frank Chapot and a few others. Was offered a job galloping horses at a top steeplechase farm but decided to go back to school (wish I had gone and done that though). I took myself out of the horse world and became an ammy. Its a decision that I made....but yes, it is harder to have an all around horse experience if you are not growing up in the middle of horse country, but not that hard (not if I was able to do it).

It is really more of an attitude. How much do you want it...and what risks are you willing to take and what you are going to do to make it happen. I do see what Denny is talking about....the attitude of wanting it handed to them and to fast track them to the top. I really don't think it has to do with specialization.....but more of expectations.

bosox

Apr. 7, 2008, 12:04 AM

You know---I have been trying to thin out my crazy schedule---but Denny you have reconfirmed my thoughts and allow me to justify all the things we do here.

My daughter is an active foxhunter, eventer, polox player and dressage rider. Yes--she does all of these things during the right time of the season. Eventing in late spring, summer and early fall.
Foxhunting from Nov-March
Point to Point racing from March to May
Polox from late March to late October
Dressage year round.
Pony Club year round

She started out in the hunter ring and won 3 years the Reserve and Grand Champ of her divisions out of 20+ kids. Large show series.

She likes to vault as well--but I have a hard time getting that in b/c it is 2 hours away. She gets to ride many, many horses---people give her horses to ride for different events (all of the list above) and I love that she gets all of these things under her belt.

Now---can someone help me find more time in the day to do all of the above AND clean my house? If you can pull that out of your hat---I also need an endless supply of funds! :D

4+ bucks a gallon has got to go!

ETA: And when all is said and done...I think my kid will grow into a horsewoman--who enjoys the sports---and loves her beasts. She doesn't dream of being an ULR. She dreams about growing old w/her special pony.

Foxtrot's

Apr. 7, 2008, 01:17 AM

Well, I'm proud to say I'm from B.C. and for those who follow Olympians and upper level eventers will know that they are all crazyand know how to kick-on. None are wealthy, they are very resourceful, and definitely paid their dues.... along with an ability to get a truck going with binder twine and duct tape as necessary... take David Wilding-Davis, Nick Holmes-Smith, Terese Washtock, Chelan Kozak ... and, very importantly, they give back to their eventing community in a big way, more than any of the showjumpers or dressage crowd. (ducking for cover.)

TB or not TB?

Apr. 7, 2008, 02:04 AM

I grew up in the suburbs. Having a horse was considered a privilege for the well off, where I lived. My father was able to provide me with an inexpensive QH after several years of lessons, and when I had been in PC a while, I got a TB. Since I didn't have my horses at home, my barn time was limited to what my parents could spare, until I was old enough to drive.

Finances being what they were, and the rules of a boarding barn fairly strict for liability purposes, there was no chicken chasing or riding over old logging trails in my youth. ;) I even foxhunted only a handful of times, since my OTTB was not quite mentally prepared for it.

However, perhaps because of this, I was instilled with the message that riding was a gift never to be taken for granted, and that each horse was to be treasured and valued, never wasted or used up. I learned that my horse wasn't suited to every discipline, and that his needs were to be considered more carefully than my own. I learned the value of working with what I had, even though that didn't mean blue ribbons or perfect dressage. I learned to take pride in progress rather than results, and to learn from the study of others in clinics or lessons that I could not participate in from my own financial or horse position. I learned how to be a sponge and suck up as much knowledge as I could, whether from a lesson or from books, as I wasn't always sure if the next one would be forthcoming, and my parents sure couldn't tell me the answer!

Now, I've still got time for some things, but I will never have the same riding-from-birth-bareback history that others can claim (even some of my friends in PC experienced this). Still, I like to hope that I gained other qualities with my experience.

The future will probably be different, but I don't know that it's lost.

kt-rose

Apr. 7, 2008, 07:00 AM

I'm not so sure it is really all that different, Denny. I grew up riding with Victor Hugo-Vidal and was a working student with him all through high school in the early '70s. (That is before I saw the light and moved to the dark side ;) !) I remember kids who worked so hard to ride well and kids who had a real sense of entitlement. Money and fancy horses didn't make much of a difference -- it was the kid and their work ethic and level of motivation that made the difference. I worked hard and rode a lot of ordinary horses and in the end had the good fortune to sit on some of the legends of that era. Today some of my horses live at home and one or two at a time live at a pretty high end eventing barn. I see the same thing. Some kids and working students who give it their all every day. Some who want it handed to them. There are one or two who have the talent, the work ethic and parents who have bought them suitable horses. Those are the kids to watch -- but the most important piece is the work ethic. And here in Virginia and when I lived in Kentucky, at least, I see a lot of kids growing up riding all over, hunting, racing ponies, showing, playing cowboys and Indians, whatever. I do think there is less space for all this in the world but really there were only a lucky handful of us in any generation that grew up that way.

LisaB

Apr. 7, 2008, 07:30 AM

A couple of points
1. Yeah, on a budget. That hit home. Teacher salaries can't afford anything in the horse world unless it's just trail riding.
2. Diversity. Well, since there's all these rules in place now where a teenager can't do this or that because of liability, they are pretty much limited. I got booted from the track because I was 16 and that's too young to even groom(in CA in the 80's). Now if I were an illegal ...
3. Diversity part deux. There are a lot of introverts in the eventing world now. Introverts in the respect that those types of people really hone in on one thing. I'm one and I see a lot of kids that are too. They prefer not to venture out. The extroverts seem to be in the QH world where they do the AQHA shows plus reining/cutting/rodeo stuff. And they prefer to do it on one horse.
That said, there are a lot of kids that force it upon themselves to venture out. I see them schooling at Wingreen and they talk freely about what they do. I see pony club forcing diversity upon the kids too. I was in Dover the other day and the moms were talking about the kids doing this, that and the other. But those people had money. They needed equipment for each thing the kid was doing. It wasn't like the kid was spoiled and needed that new GPA helmet either. It was minimal.

J Swan

Apr. 7, 2008, 07:50 AM

I agree.

Specialization is for insects.

Few riders nowadays are all around horsemen - too many of us are stuck in a ring, first of all. When I was a kid, I could ride all day long, even making a stop at a general store for a soda. Now - folks are stuck in the ring. Or if they can get out of the ring - it's only to school at a well groomed xc course.

They're still out there - plenty of people I know real horsemen - but that is more of a reflection of the area in which I live - not the horse industry as a whole.

I don't know what the answer is - but I wish Pony Club had not drifted towards that 2 track system - I don't think it does the kids any favors. I guess it's a sign of the times?

My personal regret is that I never had the opportunity to gallop racehorses as a kid. I think it would have done me a world of good. I guess a lot of folks would be horrified if their kids exercised TB's nowadays - but heck - if I had the opportunity now - even at my age - I'd jump for joy.

At the risk of sounding like a total curmudgeon, I`d say that compared to the greats of yesteryear, not too many riders have paid their dues.
Examples:
Mike Plumb won the Maclay at Madison Square Garden, placed 2nd in the Md Hunt Cup, and evented advanced for FORTY YEARS.
Bruce Davidson foxhunted, rode in the Md Hunt Cup, and is still eventing advanced in his late 50s.
Kathy Kusner won about every grand prix in the US and Europe, and was the 1st woman to ride in the Md Hunt Cup.
Kevin Freeman won the Pa. Hunt Cup among his many racing victories.
Frank Chapot placed 3rd in the Md Hunt Cup, plus 6 Olympics.

Read about the great old USET riders, and compare what they did to what most of the younger riders have done, and you will see that many of them were TOTAL HORSEMEN.
So part of what`s wrong today is that too many---not all, but too many---of the current riders simply don`t have the same credentials that the golden oldies had.
When a rider has "done it all", evented, timber raced, foxhunted, ridden endurance, showed hunters and jumpers, galloped racehorses, broken yearlings and two year olds, all that "stuff", if gives them an enormous pool of experience from which to draw.
So if "you guys" want to be like "those guys", you can do it, but it ain`t going to come easy, and it ain`t going to come overnight.

Picasso

Apr. 7, 2008, 07:54 AM

At the risk of sounding like a total curmudgeon, I`d say that compared to the greats of yesteryear, not too many riders have paid their dues.
Examples:
Mike Plumb won the Maclay at Madison Square Garden, placed 2nd in the Md Hunt Cup, and evented advanced for FORTY YEARS.
Bruce Davidson foxhunted, rode in the Md Hunt Cup, and is still eventing advanced in his late 50s.
Kathy Kusner won about every grand prix in the US and Europe, and was the 1st woman to ride in the Md Hunt Cup.
Kevin Freeman won the Pa. Hunt Cup among his many racing victories.
Frank Chapot placed 3rd in the Md Hunt Cup, plus 6 Olympics.

Read about the great old USET riders, and compare what they did to what most of the younger riders have done, and you will see that many of them were TOTAL HORSEMEN.
So part of what`s wrong today is that too many---not all, but too many---of the current riders simply don`t have the same credentials that the golden oldies had.
When a rider has "done it all", evented, timber raced, foxhunted, ridden endurance, showed hunters and jumpers, galloped racehorses, broken yearlings and two year olds, all that "stuff", if gives them an enormous pool of experience from which to draw.
So if "you guys" want to be like "those guys", you can do it, but it ain`t going to come easy, and it ain`t going to come overnight.

I respectfully disagree. Very respectfully, mind you! I am not and won't be an ULL. I am ok with this, however, I ride with one that ought to be more well known than he is, and I am hopeful and working every angle with and for him to get him there. He is, first and foremost, an all around horseman. He got his "start" starting horses, in fact, which has made him one of the stickyist riders I have ever seen! In fact, he has had to re-learn some "proper" stuff ( :D ) just because he could stick come what may based on starting horses. He has ridden as a Dressage rider, a jumper, but his love is eventing.

That being said, you have a ground issue? He is a genius at working through these things and then transferring that to up in the saddle. You, as a rider have a confidence issue? He has you through that, too before you even knew what happened (I am a testimony to this). Its not an overnight process, that I do agree with you, but I can point to one real horse person and I am sure there are more like him out there.

riva1

Apr. 7, 2008, 07:58 AM

Few things I''ve been thinking about:
1. Instant gratification generation
2. Safety-parents today are much more safty concience. It's preached to us constantly by the media. As I kid, I'd disapear on my pony for HOURS. I did a lot of CRAZY things with my pony that would certainly get DCYF involved today.
3. Space. Development is taking over so much precios open land.
4. Specialization - by this I mean as an example: As a kid, I did 'vaulting' with the BO's foxhunter. My best friend and I would take turns lunging wile the other practiced standing ontop of the horse, doing whatever 'ballet' moves we could think of, all at the w,t,c, over jumps... And yes, we wore leotards.:lol: Today, I don't think many BO's would allow it. You need to go to a 'vaulting' clininc that is 'regulated':eek:

denny

Apr. 7, 2008, 08:11 AM

There are great riders out there right now, don`t get me wrong.
But we`ve been talking a great deal about why there have been so many bad accidents at the upper levels,and it struck me that the great riders I used to compete against---Davidson, Plumb, Lucinda, are three, and the great jumper riders I used to watch---Chapot, Steinkraus, Traurig, Kusner, O`Meara, Jenkins, etc---those riders were superstars.
So then I thought, "How did they get so good?"
Part is just raw talent.
Part, though, is sheer miles, hours, years of nonstop riding.
Then I look at the entry lists of current US upper level events, and I see dozens of pretty young riders getting pretty swiftly to the three and four star levels and I can`t help but wonder if they truly have gained the foundation that will allow them to get it done when things go badly.
It`s just a question. Have they "paid their dues" in terms of experience that will let them cope at those hard levels?
I don`t have the answer, but since we`re seeking reasons and answers, I thought it was a question worth asking.

Jleegriffith

Apr. 7, 2008, 08:18 AM

I would have to disagree with you on this Denny. There are many of us who are paying our dues and have already paid the dues. I grew up in a horsey family both in TB racing and show world. Worked 7 days a week and rode anything I could sit on and more. Ponyclub, hunters, eventing, trail riding, dressage and jumpers we still do a bit of everything because it's just what we did. I helped break the babies, start them out galloping, helped with layup care, worked on the backside in our racing stable and more. I am currently 26yrs old and most days you will find me busting my butt riding 4+ horses a day and running my barn myself w/o any help not to mention my full-time job. I live in central Delaware where there is still plenty of farmland to go galloping across and my horses spend more time out of the ring then they do in it.

What has changed for our generation is that money and fancy horses have changed the sport. You can no longer take the exceptionally brave and bold horse who jumps anything and do well. They have to be the total package. You and I talked a bit about this when I came for camp on that nice big horse I have which is why I want to hold onto him. He could be my ticket to prelim or higher if I have the funds at some point in time to campaign him. Finding a horse that is the total package is not easy and you are not likely to find something just hanging out in the field or coming from the racetrack (there are exceptions to this of course but for the most part Tb's that can be as competitive as wb's or crosses are hard to find).

I also would tend to agree with Bornfree- kids simply do not want to work that hard to get to the top anymore. Hey, I am still young but I fully admit sometimes I wonder why in the world I am even doing what I am doing. It's a lot of hard work and your social life is nonexistent for the most part. I don't dream of being an ULR. I simply want to have a life filled with horses and I enjoy being the best rider I can be. If you asked me what my goal is it would be to produce many good all around horses. I love retraining tb's and bringing along greenies. I see prelim and above as being something that I might be able to achieve with the right horse and enough money but it doesn't seem all that important.

I think it's very hard to make a career in horses anymore especially if you are not a BNT. I hold onto my full-time job because the state of the economy scares me. I am sure I could be a better rider if I only focused on horses but I have always found horse people to be very fickle. I watched my parents struggle with their business for years. It's great when you are busy in the spring and summer and making tons of money but then the winter comes and you are struggling to meet the bills. It's a life of uncertainty and I am not brave enough to put myself out there and not know if I will be able to afford that next feed bill. The horse world has simply changed along with the rest of the world. The average person wants to send their horses/kids to the nicer barns. You have to have the fancy farms with the indoors, rings, jumps, nice footing, trainers with big names and prestige. If you don't have these types of facilities it's very hard to make it.

If you look at how the horse world has changed in the past fifty years it seems apparent that just paying your dues is not enough anymore.

Fence2Fence

Apr. 7, 2008, 08:37 AM

I think I understand what Denny is saying.

It's about depth of experience...not just "kids today" or "parents today" or the "sport today." Oh, sure, all of that factors into it. Just the expense of paying for the memberships that each sport requires is off-putting!

I just came back from Denny's March Adult Camp, and was lucky enough to meet a couple who had come to eventing after galloping race horses most of their life and another really cool guy who had fox hunted most of his life. Both the couple and the fox hunter had "depth of experience" that they brought to their riding. Compared to the rest of the "campers" who were pretty much "eventing specialists," they were flipping incredible to watch and talk too. You'd never have know from watching them, that these folks had only been eventing for a handful of years--they looked like they had being doing this All their Lives.

When you have a large pool of knowledge to draw from, you can readily adapt to the situation and challenges that eventing presents. It's essential for success.

I contacted a friend of mine who fox hunts about what I need to do to get started. Her reply was "Sure! You'll find that eventing is a great prep for hunting!" :) So, this "depth of experience" works both ways!

magnolia73

Apr. 7, 2008, 08:42 AM

I think the high costs we have today hurt us- it can't be a fun thing for most- horses are an investment. Because they cost. A lot. My first pony cost $75. I kept her at my neighbor's for $25 a month. :winkgrin: I had my book- "A Horse Around The House", a weekly riding lesson on a school horse, and parents that kind of didn't care that I rode all over creation. And my parents did not care about acheivement..... or, well....geez- honestly- safety.
I don't think you see that too often anymore.

It's funny- my friends and I were chatting about the crazy stuff we did as kids. One of the juniors at the barn was listening. We asked her what she had done "crazy". Her reply was that she went for a canter in her trainers field one day. Now, this kid can retrain a rank horse, does jumpers.... she's good. Smart. Knowledgable on vet care. Open to learning. But then- her first horse probably cost more than my last three cars. Her board is well over $650 per month. The investment is quite high. It's hard to justify messing around with some of these horses.

I do think time in the saddle is such a huge advantage. You do get horse sense over time- its not book learned and I don't think you can accelerate it except by time in the saddle on many horses. These kids probably do lack that sixth sense that you develop over time. You probably have 100 times better access to trainers and info these days- perhaps "book learning" vs figuring stuff out on your own has become too much the norm?

denny

Apr. 7, 2008, 08:54 AM

It`s still possible to get outreach mileage.
There are point to point races going on RIGHT NOW.
Endurance races RIGHT NOW.
Foxhunting is happening, jumper shows, ditto, hunter classes, ditto, jobs as wranglers on Western ranches, ditto, galloping race horses, all that stuff, RIGHT NOW.
It isn`t as if in YEAR 200 all those opportunities vanished.
They are there RIGHT NOW.
But----will our up and comers do it?

flyingchange

Apr. 7, 2008, 09:10 AM

mbarrett

Apr. 7, 2008, 09:12 AM

Denny, I agree with everything you have said. I don't think today's top eventers are cut from the same bolt of cloth the riders for yesterday were.

I have yet to see the riders in the running for the Olympic team for this year riding show horses (ala Bill Steinkrass) (Bill, please forgive the spelling of your name!), ride in a timber race this year, foxhunt on a regular basis (OK, maybe they have, but you wouldn't see that in the results of the COTH mag.), galloping racehorses (OK, maybe they do, but on a regular basis?), condition and ride an endurance horse, my list could go on.

I think today's generation of riders are so focused on the "ring", they go round and round training, showing, training, showing, coaching.... that they don't see the forest for the trees. They either don't have time or the desire to become a true horseman. Yes, they are very good at what they do, but they also don't have the varied experiences that the riders you listed initally did. You, Denny, are among the true horsemen because you did it all too.

I know a lot of people don't agree with you, but I do. It's a shame to. There are plenty of great experiences to learn from other disciplines, but they can't or won't take advantage of them.

Times have changed.

magnolia73

Apr. 7, 2008, 09:19 AM

jobs as wranglers on Western ranches

Just going on some trail rides out west makes you reconsider what horses really can do. It will sure change your definition of "bad footing".

And perhaps in some ways, the idea of doing a lot- spending a summer galloping racehorses, a summer on a ranch, a season at WEF..... that would prevent some burn out. And I think a reminder that riding is such a "long term" sport. It's not like gymnastics and figure skating where 20 hits and your days are over.

I do think people get locked into time lines. In so many aspects of life. As soon as you set a goal with a deadline, things- philosophies change. All of the sudden, all of the peripheral things become second fiddle to the "goal".

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 7, 2008, 10:30 AM

I don't know how they can do all that stuff when they are either:

1) full-time in school with pressure to make the dean's list AND compete (in the ribbons)

or

2) full-time working students who are expected to be at the barn or on the road with the barn at least 6 days a week

I respectfully disagree. Denny isn't saying that there are not riders out their paying there dues...there are....but there are a lot who are not. More so then 20 years ago for sure.

I worked in the barn, waited on tables, made Deans list all 4 years, rode and had a tough double major at a top college. And while I have some brains, I'm not anything special. It takes dedication, a very strong work ethic and the right person but it is doable. I only partied once a week...if that. I managed my time and I made sacrifices. During the summers, I went to school some summers, and rode/worked at various farms across the country.

After college (and without money from parents), I worked in horses full time (on the West and East coasts). Starting out breaking young horses, working student for an event barn, rode fox hunters in the morning, legged up any horse I could get my hands on (clipped, pulled manes, braided anything I could for extra money).....worked for a fox hunt for a season, worked for a top jumper for a year....you get the picture. It required me to move, it required me to work my butt off, and it required me to seek out opportunities and learn that everyone you meet and every horse you ride can teach you something.

This isn't new and it isn't different.....yes, even today riders can do this. I know of several who are doing it now. Galloping in the morning, riding and breaking during the day, going to races, hunter shows, jumper shows, dressage shows and events....and then teaching in the afternoon evening....and waiting tables or working some other job to help pay the bills. It is a tough way to get good and make a living....but a lot of riders do take this path even today....but there are also quite a few taking an easier path or more specialized path (but I also am not sure that this is new....but perhaps since there are more people eventing, it is just occurring more often).

colliemom

Apr. 7, 2008, 10:38 AM

What has changed for our generation is that money and fancy horses have changed the sport. You can no longer take the exceptionally brave and bold horse who jumps anything and do well.

And this is what disappoints me the most about our sport. It's what attracted me in the first place, that it was a sport where the playing field was much more level, and hard work and dedication were so much more valued than a fancy high-priced warmblood.

Since I can't afford that kind of horse (and more to the point, don't WANT one) I will continue learning from my inexpensive OTTB's, but will compete less and less. It's just not the same.

4Martini

Apr. 7, 2008, 10:40 AM

OK, I've been thinking about this and I'm going to argue a different direction. Maybe the "oldies" are not keeping up with the sport. (This is not meant as a dig to anyone) just a different theory.

I've done a lot of whitewater kayaking. When I learned the boats were huge and really hard to paddle esp. for a small female. I paddled for years. About 5 or 6 years into my paddling they started coming out with much smaller boats and "playboating" where you paddle upstream into rapids and do tricks became very popular. Well, a lot of younger paddlers really got into this and (myself included) would playboat everyday after work. Then the newer boaters that playboated all of the time started running bigger rapids. All of the oldschoolers moaned that they had not paid their dues and didn't have years of experience reading the rivers. But, when they started running harder stuff, they did it well. (unstatistically speaking) there were not more accidents amoung them. In fact they ran the rivers really well. I think it's because by paddling into the rapids upstream they learned to be upside down and in bad off balance situations. They didn't need to spend days running lots of rapids, they could stay in one rapid for a few hours and simulate lots of harsh conditions. When they got off balance running a rapid later, they had been off balance like that before and were more comfortable. There's really no reason for those people to get into a 12' long fiberglass boat - that experience doesn't help them navigate a 8' plastic boat. It just slows their learning curve. It might be fun to try it to relate with the oldschoolers, but really it's not necessary anymore.

Look at the most recent accidents, it seems like those are people who have paid their dues. Not newbies. Maybe we should look at what the newbies are doing to pack more experience into less time? Maybe there is a more efficient way of getting good. Because despite my earlier post about riding wild around creation, I'm still a BN rider. A lot of people who have grown up riding more structured have a accomplished a lot more than I have.

Just looking at the other side of the coin. (Flamesuit on.)

flyingchange

Apr. 7, 2008, 10:53 AM

BFNE -

Well, you are proof that it can be done. Wow. :)

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 7, 2008, 11:10 AM

BFNE -

Well, you are proof that it can be done. Wow. :)

Yeah but it isn't easy. Working for Frank Chapot and seeing that talent and the horse world at that level (even if just a groom) is what sent me back to law school. That man is an unbelievable horseman...if you could bottle his cluck...you could make millions.

But the work ethic and drive is what makes people successful in many fields....and it translated well from the horse world to the law world and probably why I eventually made partner.

I sometimes wonder what would have happened had I stayed with the horses....but luck and money are also two factors that can help make a rider successful (almost more then talent)...and since I didn't have money and was worried about my luck (after being put in the ER more then a couple times) and had only mediocre talent....I decided I might need to just be an ammy. But I do respect those who make the other choice and wonder if I wouldn't have been happier if I had taken the risk and stayed with the horses........gotta love those life choices!

kacey'srider

Apr. 7, 2008, 11:48 AM

Ok... so this thread is making me feel better... I am not an upper level rider - YET. The dreams have been there for years but I only recently have had the time, money, and horse to get there. I'm not the youngster I once was, but I'm not older yet either. I guess I'm in my prime!

Growing up one of four girls, we did not have the money for me to show and event like I wanted to. My allowance went to pay for 1/2 of my riding lessons and I saved money to go to shows and even found and cleaned up the old barn at which I boarded my first horse... that I only got after saving money for tack and unforseen vet bills, and years of riding the "junk" that no one else would ride.

I trained my first horse - pony at 12. He was my trainers, a mustang/arab/QH and bucked me off the first time I rode him. I promptly got up and asked her if I could help her train him. He taught me how to ride a buck, a rear, and worse, dumped me on my head a few times, and taught me love and devotion. I evented him, got him fit enough for an endurace ride at the coast, he had a heart murmer so he had to be extra fit, took him to hunter shows, jumper shows, dressage shows, and on trail rides, and Pony Clubbed with him. I cried like a baby when we sold him. After that, people were asking me to ride their difficult horses! I didn't get my first horse, who ended up being VERY difficult as well, until I was 16, so I rode a LOT of difficult horses.

I have started numerous horses, too many to count, jumped a rusher - on the buckle to teach her that I was not going to hit her in the mouth- later on in her career, she was great, but we used to have people get up and leave before we did our stadium rounds, and "watch out for that chestnut mare over there" was often heard in warm up. She is now a school horse!

I have recently raised from birth, started, and competed my own, the chestnut mare's son! At six, he has already been to AEC's with YEH and novice, and we were one training level trial short of qualifying for AEC's again before he and I both required time off and rest for various reasons. We'll be back in the fall!

As a grown woman, that's so strange to say, I now have a family, the support, time, and finances to compete like I have always dreamed of doing. I finally have the chance to make it to where I want to be after all these years. I feel like I have "paid my dues" and now I am just waiting for the big break! Kacey will be well soon, and I will give birth to my second child in a few months and back in the saddle I will be! I often don't feel like I have all the experience that I need, but it's nice to know that after reading Denny's post, I am on the right track and due for a chance to make it!

I owe all of this experience to years and years of training and friendship with one great horsewoman and trainer!

I hope it does not seem like I am stroking my own back here, but finally for once, I feel like I have earned my spot, even if I am just going training level right now!

silver pine

Apr. 7, 2008, 11:56 AM

I have to agree with Denny. I grew up in Ireland where I would ride ANYTHING I could get my hands on. My family could not afford a pony of my own so I rode lesson horses, which ment a huge variety. I had a cousin who hunted and evented so a few times a year I got to go fox hunting. Now fox hunting in Ireland is fresh sent, no drag, no prepared route. It is true cross country, you neve know what is arround the bend or over the stone wall. I HAD a seat like glue. At that time I didn't know a half halt from a passage but I could jump anything in the field, control my horse in a fast moving hunt pack and keep out of trouble. There were plenty of accidents, horses hitting walls, getting stuck in ditches ect. But it was a very different culture. There were many good quality honest horses to be ridden and if a horse was injured he was kept in pasture to live out his days.

Now I am 30 years old with a job and a mortage and a great game little Q-Horse who loves nothing more than to hit the beach. I am delighted with my background in hunting, beach riding and general unsupervised carrying on while on horse back. I wish I still had the gumption that I did in those days, I am nowhere near as brave, but I know that I COULD ride like I used to and hopefully with time and practice I will get back there.

Do I think young riders today are missing a huge portion of unsupervised horse time. Yes. They are shuttled from lesson to lesson on horses that are worth a fortune.

I think there is ahuge problem with young riders buying upper level school masters to bring them around the lover levels and then running into difficulty when the horse needs help in the upper levels. Breeding better horse people, not better horses is the answer here. So Denny lead the charge get those young riders off the well trained specalized horses and put them on horses that make them think outside the eventing box!!

hey101

Apr. 7, 2008, 12:10 PM

4Martini- your post was very interesting.

Trying to distill what you are saying, are you surmising that the "kids" today have grown up riding today's courses and even though they may not have "paid their dues" in the old-timer sense, because they grew up and learned WITH the changing sport, they have already adapted as to how to ride them today (or really, never even had to adapt since that is all they know). Whereas the "old-timers" are trying to ride the modern courses with the skills and techniques of the past, and that is not working over today's courses?

Truthfully, I can only think of one "old-timer" (Ralph), who has been badly hurt. Does Darren count as a new kid or an old-timer? And Kim was schooling over show jumps so not sure she should count. The other people hurt/ killed were much much younger (YR's, 20's and 30's), IIRC. Who am I forgetting?

LisaB

Apr. 7, 2008, 12:20 PM

I keep thinking of the video of that dr girl who stuck like glue to some rather rank horses. Remember that link? The girl could ride. And she signed up to the tv show the dr star or whatever the name was. And you know what? They passed on her. The rumor is that she didn't have good enough skills and horse. Meanwhile, we in eventer land are drooling over her skills. That's a problem! And what about the western girl who did a reining freestyle with no bridle nor tack? The girl could ride.
These girls are not interested in eventing but at least they are out there.
And I've seen first hand what happens to the yr's who buy the ride. Then they want to be pro and realize they can't teach because they don't know how to ride. They can't bring along a horse either.
I think the really good yr's are out there but not visible because they don't have the expensive horses and going advanced at 18 with multiple rides.
My instructor rode some really rank horses in her life. I know because she immediately has a fix for whatever beast I'm on. She's young but knows a ton. And it pays off in her rides as well as her student's.
Here's a dilemma I see in her situation(my opinion, not hers!). Adv rider in a good location. Has some pretty good horse flesh. Not great but one really good one and some up and comers. I've seen where she's taken some lessons from folks in the hopes that she can further her adv level. I see the instructors being way off the mark. I think the only one I've seen hit the nail on the head was a dr instructor. But here she is, rimming the edge of the ***/**** hoop but can't really get the ball in there without some help. And I don't see where she can really get it here. Sure, there's the developing rider sessions, but it's really just a political move and I don't see where one or two lessons in the spring from someone who doesn't know you be really much help. Maybe a few pointers but that's it. So, what does one do?

LisaB

Apr. 7, 2008, 12:21 PM

Hey,
DC and Kim are definitely new school in their experiences and practices.

imapepper

Apr. 7, 2008, 12:25 PM

When a rider has "done it all", evented, timber raced, foxhunted, ridden endurance, showed hunters and jumpers, galloped racehorses, broken yearlings and two year olds, all that "stuff", if gives them an enormous pool of experience from which to draw.
So if "you guys" want to be like "those guys", you can do it, but it ain`t going to come easy, and it ain`t going to come overnight.

I haven't timber raced (I wish but not very popular where I was located) or fox hunted (same reason) but I have done everything else. I have also been a groom, barn manager and instructor. I was the crash test dummy for an old jumper trainer who liked to find diamonds in the rough :D Most fun I have ever had :) I took my horse on all day trail rides as a youngster. I have ridden a cutting horse (not too many times but got the idea ;) ) and helped bring the cattle up for vaccinations. I also have to admit to alot of bareback riding and alot of stunts that my mother should never know about :) I'm 37 and hoping to have enough $$$ to show again before I turn 50 :)

wookie

Apr. 7, 2008, 12:31 PM

i do think that having exposure to multiple horse activites like denny has described definitely makes you a better rider. more exposure to anything makes you more aware and more experienced. but today's world is crazy chaotic. both parents working, everything wicked expensive, less farmland and open country-less opportunities for riding. i am gasp, 41.. and when i was 11 lived in pa by devon.. i always wanted to ride,, but my dad didn't get it. so my friend and i put an ad in the philadelphia enquirer with our allowance saying we would work for lessons. we said we were 14. lots of responses. i weighed like 70lbs.. we got our parents up on weekends at 4am so we could arrive by 5.. mucked 28 straw stalls moving the piles so every corner could breath. fed them all,, dragged hay bales to the outside guys. swept the aisle until not one piece of hay/straw remained. then we groomed, every lesson horse,, tacked them up,, cooled them off. set jumps, cleaned ancient rooms filled with large aggressive spiders. unloaded the grain truck,, stacked the hay and straw. and at the very end got a 45 minute lesson. i fell off multiple times in the beginning.. blisters covered my hands and it hurt to hold the reins.. but i did learn then to use my seat and legs for balance. sometimes my legs were just rubber but i stuck with it and got free lessons.. and the barn owners even bought me a auction tb who was like steinbeck's red pony for the first month. they brought me to my first show and let me ride a spanking new auction pony. yes, there is sarcasm there. i think it was his first show. and i remember they threw me in this one class impulsively--the handy hunter. i walked the course with tommy the barn owner and was like sh....i am going to jump these solid things--large spools, brick walls. he said yes,, go fast and go clean. that pony will think it's ok if you are riding forward and positively but if you hesitate, he will sense that.
oh my,, what a blast. not many road in that. everyone wanted to do the h/j thing.. anyways,, i worked everyday in the summer, slept in the trailer or tack room when i was allowed. road everything, groomed everything. and learned volumes. i made no money, my friends from school did the mall thing and i lost some of them as a result. people didn't understand my passion, including my parents. we moved, to wisconsin and the opportunites did not exist as readily.. took me years to get back.. i bought my first horse at 22. and have owned one since.
so i think it is harder to find those opp's for kids today. but i also know of many who eat/breath/sleep horses and work hard.. they are still out there but now there are just larger numbers of leisurely riders who don't have huge aspirations-except to enjoy. i really don't know any aspect of owning a horse that doesn't include hard work, long hours, early hours, and absolutely a ton of time.. but the pay off is priceless and a hell of alot more fun then sitting on a couch in some office telling someone your woes.
with that said, i am heading to the barn to prepare for my short trailer ride for a lesson with sally.

4Martini

Apr. 7, 2008, 12:35 PM

Hey 101 - you got it. Much better version of what I was trying to say.

I remember when I realized at like 24 that I was Old School in kayaking. It's all about perspective. I would guess if you asked a 22 year old if Kim and Darren were old they would say yes. If you ask a 50 year old they would say they are young.

I don't have much experience even watching upper levels. But, seems to me at Rolex there were a number of people in the <25ish age range maybe <30 would did an incredible job. What are their experiences? How did they get there? What can we learn from them is what I'm asking.

Maybe paying your dues has changed. How are the most competitive young riders getting good (I'm just equating young riders to having the least amount of time getting there - therefore possibly the most efficient method.)

I'm just curious if we focus in where we are going vs. where we have been if we perhaps come up with a different answer in how to get the best skill set for the sport.

denny

Apr. 7, 2008, 12:38 PM

Regarding the accidents to some of our best riders, I just think if you do a risk sport long enough, no matter how good you are, it`s going to get you.
So in a way I can see why some of our best riders hang up their spurs in their mid to late 40s, before that happens.
But being very good makes it less likely, probably. I say "probably", because the good riders are better, yes, but by riding so many horses over so many jumps, they up the odds that they are going to miss that distance.
I just finished reading Streets of Laredo, the last of the Lonesome Dove series.
Old Capt. Call has lost an arm and a leg, and is reduced to sharpening knives in a barn to make money.
A young cowboy asks Charles Goodnight how that could be---"I always heard he was the greatest Ranger of all."
Goodnight replies:
"Woodrow Call had his time. It was a long time, too. Life`s but a knife edge anyway. Sooner or later people slip and get cut."
So with that cheery thought, I`ll go eat lunch!

hey101

Apr. 7, 2008, 12:52 PM

Maybe paying your dues has changed. How are the most competitive young riders getting good (I'm just equating young riders to having the least amount of time getting there - therefore possibly the most efficient method.)

I'm just curious if we focus in where we are going vs. where we have been if we perhaps come up with a different answer in how to get the best skill set for the sport.

Hmmm. Thinking about this, and WRT to the other thread on trainers. I don't know if it's the currently competing "old-timers" out there still riding who are having problems (Bruce can still rock-and-roll around a course like no one else).

BUT. Continuing to develop this line of thought. What if some "old-timer" TRAINERS (who are perhaps no longer active competitors) are not prepared on how to instruct their current students over TODAY's courses. Because they no longer compete, perhaps there is a big disconnect on what they are teaching vs. what they NEED to teach to be successful today. They are still teaching to the old-school courses. Which worked really well 10 years ago, not so much today. So their students are not as well equipped to face what they are going to see on course.

Just some random thoughts. In no way do I think "trainers" are the reason for the recent issues eventing is facing. But perhaps, in some cases, trainers would do well to become personally re-acquainted with the actual competitive XC questions being asked of competitors.

Jleegriffith

Apr. 7, 2008, 01:08 PM

When I think about the young riders that I am impressed with the first thing that comes to my mind is those who are making their own horses. I am biased and I respect these riders more. Why- because they have paid their dues in my mind and they have a broad level of experience than those who have only ridden made horses (again just my opinion). I grew up riding anything and everything. I have never owned a made horse (not that I wouldn't like to but I can't afford one yet) and learned all the tools to bring along a horse and ride the horses that nobody else wanted to deal with. The riders who can afford the made horses develop a different set of skills. They are not at all lesser riders (in many cases I find they have better equitation) but they sometimes they do have the luxury of skipping those rides where you really get a true insight into what it takes to deal with a horse who bucks, rears, refuses or whatever it may be.

I remember watching Doug Payne http://dpequestrian.com/ handle his difficult ride at VHT two years ago. The horse was rearing, going sideways and just plain nappy. He was tactful and rode with the type of finess that I aspire to. Since then I have followed his rides and am always impressed with the way he handles his horses. He competes in other disciplines besides eventing and does really well. He is known for bringing along horses that others may have given up on and that is something that many riders don't have the experience with.

I have also always been impressed with the story of Melissa Hunsberger and her work bringing her young horses to the upper levels. Same with Sara Mit. and others. Yes, they are good riders but they have been blessed to have found that special horse which I think sometimes is the ticket a rider needs. You can be a great rider but without the right horse you might be struggling down at the lower levels and nobody is going to take notice.

I remember reading a quote from Jimmy Wofford in PHorseman regarding Doug Payne. He said "Doug is so good on a bad horse, one wonders what he can do on a good horse. He's gotten a reputation so people are bringing him horses that other trainer's are not successful with. I don't want to see him getting stuck there. He has the potential to go as far as a good horse can take him." How many riders do get stuck here simply because they never find that good horse that can get them the recognition they deserve so that they can stop riding all the horses nobody else wants to deal with? Doug has a degree in mechanicial engineering and although I have never met him I believe he markets himself well which has gotten his name out there.

In many ways I think these young riders who are out there riding these courses have much more experience than those of us who have grown up riding but have not competed at the upper levels. They may be bringing along a green horse or riding a horse that is made but they are still paying their dues by doing the work it takes to get to the upper levels. I have ridden in all disciplines, galloped race horses, jumped big fences and brought along countless young horses but I would not think those experiences would set me up to go to the upper levels. Maybe these riders who are sitting on made horses and competing at the upper levels aren't good instructors but they are gaining experience by riding at that level when the rest of us are stuck at the lower levels.

Good instructors are hard to find and I believe the more experienced of a rider you are the harder it is to find an instructor you can learn from. I have ridden with many instructors but can only pick a few that have really taken the time to discuss the theory behind the riding.

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 7, 2008, 01:21 PM

BUT. Continuing to develop this line of thought. What if some "old-timer" TRAINERS (who are perhaps no longer active competitors) are not prepared on how to instruct their current students over TODAY's courses.

I don't know...I ride with one of those "old-timers" and he is more than capable of preparing students for the highest levels on today's courses and does. What I have seen though is just about anyone calling themselves a trainer....and some pretty wonky advice being given. There are some great young trainers out there....who I have no doubt will be very successful both as riders and trainers (and the advice being give by the great trainers and these good young ones is pretty darn similar!)....and there are others who really shouldn't be hanging that shingle out quite yet.

magnolia73

Apr. 7, 2008, 01:32 PM

They may be bringing along a green horse or riding a horse that is made but they are still paying their dues by doing the work it takes to get to the upper levels. I have ridden in all disciplines, galloped race horses, jumped big fences and brought along countless young horses but I would not think those experiences would set me up to go to the upper levels.

It might not give you finesse to win... but I bet would give you the skill to stay safe cross country.

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 7, 2008, 01:42 PM

I have ridden in all disciplines, galloped race horses, jumped big fences and brought along countless young horses but I would not think those experiences would set me up to go to the upper levels.

You know I've seen you ride. The only thing that has kept you from the ULs girlfriend is the right horse flesh and your own self confidence. If you want to go there....you could. Yes there are still things you would need guidance on.....but your base is there and it wouldn't take long.

Jleegriffith

Apr. 7, 2008, 02:09 PM

BFEN- your way to nice:lol: For me it's simply that after riding tons of green horses that can sometimes make x-rails seem like an olympic level fence it can be daunting to just jump around training level fences. We all have to decide what is most important and for me it's being the type of rider that knows I can successfully answer the questions I present to my horses and give them confidence. In order to move up past training level I would want to 100% know that I am prepared. We all know what it takes to be prepared to meet the challenges that these tougher courses ask. Those other riders have the funds to school the courses needed, get the lessons and compete to gain the experience. I don't think there is really any other way you get to that level. Right now is not the right time for me and I am perfectly fine with that. I have my plans mapped out for the future which inspire me to work hard to build up my finances to afford the better horses (or develop my lovely ottb's) and train with those who can teach me to fill the gaps in my riding education.

Are the other riders who have not brought along countless horses or paid their dues by riding in other disciplines less safe? I think we could all argue on both sides. I would personally say I think they are less safe but that could just be my background showing. One thing about riding so many horses is you learn to feel. I know what I should do before an instructor has to tell me. I spend a lot of time brining along green horses and know how hard to push and when to back down. I think I could walk off a course fairly easily because I would know my horse was not itself and that there would be another day. Horses have always been my best friends and I grew up knowing that if I broke my horse I could not have another. There is something about those experiences that make you ride smarter and think harder about the way you map out your riding career.

I have two nice horses. One probably could have been at prelim right now but he's part connemara and although he's talented he is opinionated. Learning how hard to push him has been just another peg in my riding education. Push to hard and you can end up with a horse that doesn't want to do the job. My other horse is talented and has all the right parts to go right up the levels but w/o dressage the jumping is scary. I refuse to compete until I know I will not be one of those riders who appears to be scary out on course. Competing is not an end all in a person's riding career and sometimes we all lose sight of that.

Fence2Fence

Apr. 7, 2008, 02:24 PM

Competing is not an end all in a person's riding career and sometimes we all lose sight of that.

Exactly!!!

rileyt

Apr. 7, 2008, 02:35 PM

I don't know Denny... based even on the stories here, it seems as if you could break MOST of us down into one of two types, and, I think the reality is, its set in large part by your parents...

Type 1: Parents can afford nice horses, and buy nice YR mounts, Olympic level instructors, lots of traveling to clinics and events. Kid gets to Intermediate by age 20. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with this. The child learns on "safe" horses... enjoys the sport, and certainly can RIDE. A motivated kid probably even learns how to ride pretty good half-passes on a well schooled horse. There IS merit in that, even if the kid is lacking in knowledge to bring young horses along.

Type 2: Either due to lack of money, or just different opinions on what it should be spent on, Parents DON'T pay for nice mounts. perhaps they don't pay for any mounts at ALL. Kid develops all manner of feel and "stick 'em" but at age 20 has never ridden past Training level and wouldn't know what a good half-pass feels like if it jumped up and bit them.

It seems there are very FEW that get both... and very few in the second group that somehow manage to find that diamond in the rough, and squirrel away enough money for training that they get to intermediate or advanced without becoming a real hazard to themselves. I know one, my good friend, who through no amount of luck and hard work managed to find that diamond in the rough that took her to Advanced... I think she would honestly tell you her horse literally fell into her lap. But you know, her success took the better part of 10 years, and she had to get there by working lots of long nights to support her one horse. One. Has she paid her dues? I don't doubt her talent, but has she really paid her dues under your definition? She's owned 2 horses in her life. Can she really call herself a "horseman" under your definition? I'd call her one, but it seems that your definition requires more "exposure" and I'm really curious how people are supposed to get this exposure and hold down a job? It's great to go gallavanting off working at ranches and doing Tevis and training steeplechasers... but really, is that possible these days without being completely irresponsible? (Did anyone read "Into the Wild"?)

For me, I'd certainly fall more into the "Type 2" range. I remember taking my nutso TB to local hunter shows, thinking I would clean up in the equitation classes because I KNEW if any of those pansy-ass hunter riders tried to even sit on him they'd end up in the dirt. Imagine my surprise when I didn't place so well? What I learned was that "stick 'em" and feel are great, but they only get you so far without truly good instruction. And really good instruction costs MONEY. And for that matter, unless you are REALLY lucky, the cost of nice horseflesh is going up too!

I guess my point is this-- there seem to be two different things you value (and in some way they are opposing forces)-- kids with access to quality instruction are generally guided better (and may lack the seat of the pants riding you admire). But kids who get seat of the pants experience often do it because its ALL they have access to, and they don't get the more sophisticated education.

I know my types above focus only on kids... but I think that is where the answer is. By age 20 kids start to become adults, and they have to make tough choices. They have jobs/school/family...

I'm just curious, but you say you want kids who gallop race horses in the mornings, and break 2 year olds... When exactly are they supposed to get that experience? Before 20? After? Do you recommend that an aspiring horseman forego college and instead spend 4 years working at the track for peanuts? Is that better for them in the long run? As a parent I'd have a really hard time telling my son, "Oh sure, go break in 2 year olds for free this summer... you don't REALLY need to earn money for college." Isn't that exactly the antithesis of what we want to teach our kids? Isn't that fostering exactly the type of entitlement that gets people so worked up?

I don't mean to sound bitter or angry, but I'm really curious. I think the world has changed, and some of what you advocate for is perhaps not realistic in today's world. That's not to say it can't be done, life if full of tough choices... but I'm really curious about the reality of these choices. It seems to me you're talking about the Type 2 people having "paid their dues"... but then what? They're 20 and have never ridden past Training level. Do they go be a working student for 4 years (with no health insurance? Or does Daddy pay?) and hope to learn? What path would you set your own children on?

Perhaps I'm pessimistic, but I fear that one's family finances pay a greater role in this than we're willing to admit. Maybe that's not how it should be. Maybe that's not how it used to be. But I feel pretty darn sure it is how it is.

I don't know Denny... you got under my skin with this one. It's starting to sound a bit like my Dad who walked uphill to school both ways. Like everything can be solved with just a little work ethic. Somehow I suspect our parent's generation (and WWI and WWII parents) thought the same things about us.

CBudFrggy

Apr. 7, 2008, 02:45 PM

cleaned ancient rooms filled with large aggressive spiders.

You DEFINITELY paid your dues!

Jleegriffith

Apr. 7, 2008, 02:50 PM

RileyT- exactly what I was trying to say but couldn't.

You brought up something I have been thinking about lately. Back then (I don't want to put a number of years but let's say 25yrs ago) you could do well with just a high school education. Now it seems like you need a graduate degree or more just to get your foot in the door. Would you have these kids who need the experience skip college? Getting into college is tougher than it used to be. These kids are playing sports, working, serving on commitees and more simply to gain admission into college. It's not so easy to fit it all in. I was lucky to have the horses in my backyard with parents who also were into horses so it was not hard to do. It was a requirement that I worked on the farm daily if I wanted to own my horse and that was my job until I left for college.

I'm sure I have said it many times but one of the main reasons I went to college is so I didn't end up like my parents who were stuck just doing horses because they had no further education. I wanted options. I loved riding and horses were in my blood. I had all those experiences you list before I even hit the age of 16yrs old. I got to see just how hard you work and how little you are appreciated. We had racehorses, layups, show horses, bought and sold horses, taught lessons and more. Showing was fun but it was hard work and you didn't make any money or get any glory.

Another thing to think about and it's real-getting hurt. When I was younger my mom got hurt while riding a young horse. She doesn't remember a thing but she almost died and had her whole face reconstructed. We depended on her income (running the farm, teaching lessons and selling horses). She had no backup plan, no retirement, no health insurance and she would never be the same rider. I have kept that fear in the back of my head and it's one of the things that keeps me from doing horses full-time. Can you accept the risk on many levels. Do you know what it takes to run the business and have a backup plan if it fails? I broke my wrist and couldn't ride for 2+ months. Thankfully, I had my full-time job with health insurance and benefits to carry us through.

I think the world has changed and riders have had to adapt. That is why the biggest group of eventers rides below training level.

LisaB

Apr. 7, 2008, 02:50 PM

Riley,
I think Denny is addressing the kids who want to be Olympians. They need to pay their dues in some form or fashion.
I know when I had that fork in the road after high school, if I wanted to go the pro route, I would be a working student instead of going to college. But that decision was made for me as parents wouldn't assist me in the horse world. They paid for college and that was it. So I see kids where the parents do support them and either they take a 1-2 years off from school, parents take all or portion of college money and spend it on kid's horse(s) and after 2 years, if kid ain't making it, kid pays their own way through life. Or, kid rides during college and gets a degree but horses are secondary to education. They suck it up for 4 years.
If kid doesn't have to earn money during vacations, then they should gallop racehorses or break babies. Expand their horizons while they have a chance.

poltroon

Apr. 7, 2008, 02:53 PM

What's sad is that today in California, there are fewer and fewer barns that have lesson horses. At all.

The ones that still do are mostly owned by old-timers :), people who bought their land in the 60's or 70's and so it's now paid for. They can afford to have dirt lots with a couple of horses back there to use for lessons.

Most trainers now in California, at least near any urban area, can't afford their own place. So they need to be part of a boarding facility, and if they have a lesson horse, they have to board it at roughly $500 a month. A trainer might be able to cover one or two horses at that price, but not a whole string. Just to cover the board, you have to give 3 lessons a week on that horse - and if you only have one or two lesson horses, it's hard to have enough riders who can ride on different days to fill that dance card. And so, fewer trainers keep lesson horses at all, and fewer people get any introduction to the sport, let alone a new discipline.

I'm hoping that now that I live in the sticks that I'll get to try a cutting horse or some team penning. The local feed store had a stick horse rodeo that was a hoot - stick horse barrel racing and stick horse roping with a bunch of 5-10 year old kids was hilarious. We even had a fall and a thrown shoe!

When there was a lull in kids wanting to learn to rope, I got my courage up and asked the guy if I could have a try at it. I did get a good throw after a few tries - but my goodness, I have a ton of respect for anyone who can throw a rope accurately off a moving horse onto a moving cow. That takes some serious body awareness.

La Gringa

Apr. 7, 2008, 02:58 PM

I am a west coaster originally and I would have to add to that list of Denny's..

Jimmy Williams
Hap Hansen
Anne Kursinski
Susie Hutchison
Barbara Worth

They were/are great horsemen too. Not all came up through the ranks as rich kids either.

One rider I will give credit to for paying her dues in the Jumper ring is Candace King. She rode appys off her dad's ranch, they weren't wealthy by any means.. but she worked hard, had a great attitude, and by age 16 she was taking one of those appys (her Chocolate Mousse) into the GP's and Puissance Classes! She now rides international level GP. She did hunters eq and jumpers from a very young age and moved up fast.

Now people move up so much slower too. When I was a kid I was doing the 3'6" to 3'9" stuff by age 13.

I grew up riding ponies, rode the Equitation, Hunters, and Jumpers all on one horse, and did well in all divisions.

I did some pony club, and rode a lot out in the open, even though I never was a true eventer per say.

This experience allowed me to go to South America and do FEI B level jumpers with a very bad knee in my late 30's even after a break from riding. My skills didn't go away even while I was in college and in my early marriage... without a horse for about 10 years.

Now my knee needs full replacment and that is hindering me, but once it's fixed I plan on getting right back into it.

I also think the skill of riding all different kinds of horses, TB's, WB's, mutts, whatever... really makes a good rider/horsemen. I also really respect riders who know about their horse inside and out, tack, health, how to read a horse..

It does seem it is getting to be a rarer and rarer thing now ... people want to get in the ring quick without doing their homework.

denny

Apr. 7, 2008, 03:21 PM

The reason I asked that question:"Have they paid their dues?" was because of all the discusion of accidents and injuries, and how the upper level riders were being hurt at a faster clip than the riders at training and below.
So I thought about the top riders who started about when I did, (mid 50s competing, 1962 my first event,) and what they had done, the best ones, that made them "the best ones."
And looking back, they had done lots of things that maybe their more recent counterparts hadn`t done, like hunting, racing, endurance, galloping 2-3 yr olds, that sort of thing.
Why haven`t our bright up and comers done those varied horse sports?
You`d have to ask them. Would they be even better riders than they are now if they had?
I don`t know.
But I felt it was an interesting question, and one worth asking, as we grope toward ways to make eventing less lethal.

LisaB

Apr. 7, 2008, 03:29 PM

La Gringa, I grew up in So CA and I would have to respectfully disagree with adding Hap to that list. Since the early 80's, I've seen him ride nothing but uber-fancy horses and hang out with only the uber-fancy people. He would be what I consider typical of the jumper in-crowd. Back then, I saw him ride green horses with as much hardware on them as a Goth chick with a piercing problem.

pwynnnorman

Apr. 7, 2008, 03:42 PM

I don't know Denny... based even on the stories here, it seems as if you could break MOST of us down into one of two types, and, I think the reality is, its set in large part by your parents...

Type 1: Parents can afford nice horses, and buy nice YR mounts, Olympic level instructors, lots of traveling to clinics and events. Kid gets to Intermediate by age 20. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with this. The child learns on "safe" horses... enjoys the sport, and certainly can RIDE. A motivated kid probably even learns how to ride pretty good half-passes on a well schooled horse. There IS merit in that, even if the kid is lacking in knowledge to bring young horses along.

Type 2: Either due to lack of money, or just different opinions on what it should be spent on, Parents DON'T pay for nice mounts. perhaps they don't pay for any mounts at ALL. Kid develops all manner of feel and "stick 'em" but at age 20 has never ridden past Training level and wouldn't know what a good half-pass feels like if it jumped up and bit them.

Perhaps I'm pessimistic, but I fear that one's family finances pay a greater role in this than we're willing to admit. Maybe that's not how it should be. Maybe that's not how it used to be. But I feel pretty darn sure it is how it is.

Excellent observations, IMO. I was going to play devil's advocate to Denny's perspective on this along those lines, too.

I am beginning to suspect that the sheer expense (and accompanying very high standards) of the top of the sport have totally redefined what the "dues" are.

Look at the top younger riders today, how they got their riding education and where their top horse(s) came from and you see the trend...BUT the question is are they not prepared? I couldn't find any background on Clark Montgomery on his website or anything about where Up Spirit came from, but surely, surely he is the A-list example. How much time did he spend in other horse sports, I wonder?

I dunno. I think there has always been more than one way to skin a cat (or learn how to ride a horse really well). Indeed, when I think of all the things I learned WRONG because I rode crappy horses and did a myriad of things on horseback and then think of how dressage riders in Germany do naturally what we struggle to do because they sit on schoolmasters from day one--what a difference a great horse can make in the rider you become (and I'm not talking about sheer skill--especially NOT training skill--I'm talking the skill that is demanded by the technical and mental aspects of competition). What a difference outstanding instruction, ideal experiences, step-by-step getting the right horse under you at the right times in your deveopment can make.

What is more valuable (dues-wise): Getting to compete a LOT on varied courses on good horses with excellent horse and human feedback--or riding whatever clunker comes your way and getting out to compete once a month, if you are lucky?

The thing is, it's NOT just about how well you ride (indeed, these days, it's not even about how well you train). It's about how well you compete. I think the best investment in "dues" these days is indeed in competition, not in different experiences as a rider. The more courses, the more horses, the more lessons, the more good and bad rides (in competition), etc., etc. the better you are prepared for THIS sport. That, in fact, many very well be where Wofford's "Sunday afternoon nerves" come from. Riding everything that came down the pike produced great riders for yesterday's courses and competitions, but even back then, look at who rode what and how they did. Nearly all the greats first rode into prominence on horses made by someone else. Horses they could count on when things got dire--horses they could learn to win on (IMO--and, no, I'm not talking about every single one of the greats, but a heck of lot of 'em).

Nope, the more I think of it, the more I think it's an assumption, not a fact, that riding lots of different horses in different ways, etc., etc. is necessary these days. I think concentrating your resources (your "dues," that is) is what has been succeeding for quite some time, in fact.

LisaB

Apr. 7, 2008, 03:56 PM

The thing is, it's NOT just about how well you ride (indeed, these days, it's not even about how well you train). It's about how well you compete. I think the best investment in "dues" these days is indeed in competition, not in different experiences as a rider.

Be careful with the statement on how well you compete. It took me back for sec. You see, the problem is that we don't have horsemen nor do we have riders. We have competitors. We have competitors that forsake the welfare of the horse in order for the win. We have competitors who will ride in inexperienced horse over a course and overface them.
I want to see that we have horsemen in our sport. Not competitors. I don't care how much publicity we lose because Suzie doesn't have a good face and needs a nose job. As long as she can ride and makes the horse's welfare an absolute. That's the essence of our sport, period. And we've lost it.

sidepasser

Apr. 7, 2008, 04:37 PM

I've certainly paid a few dues along the way but don't recommend it to most people - lol..

Despite the fact that I did the "seat of the pants" riding while growing up - heck my first horse at age 9 was an unbroke yearling and I had NO clue..and I grew up learning with her and didn't get killed..is a miracle in itself. Not one I recommend but I had non horsey parents..what did I know? I had a horse of my own and I did learn. I learned every way there was to fall off..I could stick anything that didn't fall on top of me by the time I was 18 so guess what - people stuck me on everything..broncy horses, mean horses, unhandled horses..and I rode or got throwed and sometimes both. But I learned to stick. Not a bad thing in itself. Did I learn grace and finesse? Some. Did I learn dressage? NO. But if there was log down or a tree down, I could jump it bareback or in a saddle..and spent hours every day after school riding till dark.

I did barrel racing, western pleasure, pole bending, rode baby Tbs, mean old ranch horses that you had to tie up to get on and have someone untie to ride or they'd bite or kick you senseless. Did that make me a better technical rider? I don't think so. I think it made learn real quick which horses would tank me though and I was quick to learn things like vault off the horse before it goes down because it's having a hissy fit in the pasture..arena? what arena? those were few and far between. But I did learn to stick on and not fall off and I learned balance up and down hills, could ride bareback as well if not better than in a saddle. Instructors - not many down in Ga. in the backwoods - lol - I learned from older people who were raising horses, and showing them. No real formal lessons. I learned from my cousins who were showing cutting horses and barrel horses.

I also learned: I wanted a real job with real insurance because I saw many of the old timers who didn't have either and suffered greatly for it. Sure they could break out a colt, win a few shows, sell it and have income. They could also not have income. They also got hurt (so did I)..but I wanted more than that. I regret not knowing the technical aspects of english riding and now that may be too late. (and too expensive in today's economy though I have taken lessons and loved it). My kids had the nice ponies, the lessons and the good instructors and none ride now. All wanted college, good jobs and benefits. At 18 my son knows that without college and a good job, the farm he is to inherit will not benefit him because he will not be able to afford to maintain it. So we are doing the college shopping/tours and he's got it narrowed down to two or three so far.

Point is - most people like me who grew up by the "seat of the pants" realized that it takes more than just sticking on and riding it out. It also takes money, technical instruction and good horses. I've had, at any given time, three out of four, but never all four in one discipline at the same time. I showed futurity horses where I got paychecks, but I could not ride a dressage test. So what did I get for all those years of learning to stick it out and ride whatever horse was sent to me? I got a lot of saddle time, a good education in reading a horse and a lot of unnecessary medical bills that I might not have had if I had access to good technical instruction.

Kids nowdays aren't like I was growing up - they know insurance is important, college is important, they have online access to ask people where good trainers are, etc. When I grew up, there weren't many barns here and my parents were the type to say "pay for lessons????" I did have the advantage of being able to ride from daylight to dark as I lived where there was lots of land, and neighbors didn't care if we rode on it and so we did. Kids now don't have that much opportunity to ride for miles without worrying. There's also the criminal element as well, my parent's didn't worry that someone would make off with their daughter who went off riding alone. It just didn't happen in a town of less than a 1,000 people surrounded by timber lands. Now I would be afraid to let my daughter ride off down the side of a road by herself. So that is limiting in the "saddle time" as well.

I do agree though that for learning to ride..that nothing beats miles in the saddle. A person really learns a horse, how to balance, how to counteract bad horse behavior and how to get out of "sticky" situations by just riding. Riding all sorts of horses helps. As kids, we traded back and forth with friends (just for the day, not "trading as in selling" and rode each others horses and learned more that way since none of us could own strings of horses. We rode across countryside, making our own trails and finding new ones. Thank you to the cows, deer and loggers. The courses these days look nothing like what was found out in the countryside 35 years ago either. So how much would transfer over? I've been to the modern courses and looked. Below training, if I had my old horse back, yes I'd take a hike over them and not worry but I would flunk the dressage - lol..but I wouldn't worry about not getting round the x-c part. The upper levels would flunk me out due to the technical aspects..you can't tear round and fly by the seat of your pants on those courses.

What I have to show for all that stick to the horse saddle time besides mutiple aches and pains is a vast appreciation for the younger people today. Somehow, they are managing to work riding, lessons, school /college, extra curricular stuff to get them ahead in the job market, and possibly a job as well into their lives. I did very well at what I did show wise..I have boxes of ribbons and some nice check stubs too. I don't think it prepared me for what I see out on the courses today though.

I would need more than the ability to stick a horse, more than perserverance that "you stinking hellcat, you will go through this creek..lol" to be able to ride the upper level courses that are out there today. I definitely would need to spend a ton of time being flogged by someone like Gigi N. - lol in the dressage arena. After all that..yes, I probably could fall back on the years of saddle time and get round and through sheer determination, find myself a ribbon or two. But I am older now and my physical self has it's own ideas about going over a course like that. So while I am thinking and considering it, I think I know I would never be able to do it and do it well.

As far as instructors - I like to take lessons from those that have experience as well as are currently riding in whatever discipline I am interested in. I find that they are certainly aware of the hazards, rule changes, etc. and know what is required at "this" moment in time. I prefer to take lessons from someone who is able to relate to my experience, age and physical limitations and so wouldn't push me to do what I was not capable of doing just so they would have a "student" out there showing. Concern for the horse as well as the student is top priority and I can usually judge whether a person has those in adequate quantities to suit me. Older instructors who competed years ago in my opinion are still able to teach today, however I qualify that with "if they have kept up with the changes that have occurred since they rode in their discipline as a competitor". If so, then you have a wealth of information and also can pick up the "tricks" of the trade a little faster than with someone who doesn't have a lot of experience overall, but can ride a good course. I do agree that a larger awareness of other disciplines helps too. Even if one only rode in two or three (other than dressage, stadium and x-c) - it helps gain added perspective and you learn to be open to new ideas and ways of doing things which does transfer over to eventing.

Plus it is also fun to know that when you get to be an older than dirt, seat of the pants rider, you can always learn a new discipline and have fun with it. :>)

JAGold

Apr. 7, 2008, 05:28 PM

A few thoughts:

Prepared to do what? To compete or to train horses? To be safe in competitions, or to win them? These all require different types of preparation, though the fundamentals are of course universal.

I completely agree with rileyt on the trade-offs between types of childhood riding experiences. I was her classical "type 2" kid. I consider myself lucky to have been given the opportunity to ride a lot of horses as a teenager. The fact that some of them had some serious quirks along the launch-you-into-tomorrow variety did not make riding them any less a privilege and a pleasure, at least when I was 17 or 18 or 19! When I eventually had the opportunity to ride some VERY nice, well schooled horses, it was a whole new ball game for me. I had to go back to the beginning in terms of learning finesse. I'm glad I developed the skills to ride green and rank horses first, but sitting on truly well schooled horses gave me a new appreciation for the skill involved in those rides, and for how that skill can be applied to the greenies or hot-heads who I still love.

I do think there are still opportunities out there for kids who want to be involved in every single aspect of horsemanship. It's just that those situations were once the main way, if not the only way, for kids to learn about horses. Now, the path of least resistance is to go to the local training barn and progress from one lesson a week to a lease to your first horse, chosen and schooled by your trainer. This is especially true for kids whose parents aren't involved in horses themselves. It's hard to communicate to new participants that things that may at first glance look like games rather than instruction, or even look unsafe, are in fact the foundations of our sport! But riding outside, riding bareback, playing mounted games, switching ponies with your friends all appear to be less rather than more educational to a parent or child who knows little about the sport.

I teach some local Pony Club kids. They are really fantastic kids who work hard, love their horses, and want to learn as much as they can. But some of them -- and their parents -- were a little surprised when their last lesson was flat work, taught outside in a hilly field! There is no reason that they should know coming into the sport that dressage up and down a hill will make them better, more capable cross country riders. They were willing to take my word for it, but in general it's hard to create legitimacy for that kind of instruction when it is juxtaposed against orderly groups in rings with bright shinny fences...

And of course, the idea that riding up and down hills comes in a lesson rather than in wild trail rides with your friends is the heart of the matter. But again, for parents who aren't involved in horses themselves, letting kids go out on those wild trail rides sounds just plain crazy.

I know the idea of this thread isn't to blame anyone for the changes in how people learn about horses, but the fact that these changes are embedded in broader cultural shifts does affect how we can address them, and with whom we should start.

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 7, 2008, 06:07 PM

While I agree with some of the more recent posts...that doesn't address some of the "I want it NOW attitude" that I am seeing more of. Young Adults thinking that they are accomplished UL riders by 19.....or failures if they are not. I'm sorry....but you just plain haven't been alive long enough. The great horsemen did not become great over night. Most were not in their prime until thier 30s and lasted far beyond that. There are some really talented young riders....but I thought some of Denny's post was that some of these young riders just are not taking the time to become well experienced in all areas before trying to hit the BIG time (and considering themselves great). There is an attitude that I am seeing (even in riders I like)....now that I acutally own horses people generally want to ride. If I give a ride to a now up and comming rider...and by this I mean a rider under the age of 26 who is as of yet unproven as a trainer...they expect that not only I will pay all expenses, but I will pay them as a pro. But now since I'm paying, I'll put a proven rider on those horses instead (or just ride them my self). Years ago...I don't think this would be the case. Yes, the owners would pay costs....but a young not yet proven rider would be just plain thankful for getting the opportunity to ride a nice horse that could give them good exposure and help them become a pro (win some divisions and learn something riding a decent horse)...and if the owner tipped them...damn they were lucky. Now, they consider themselves a pro just because they can ride well....without having to have paid the dues of mucking stalls, riding any horse they could (good and bad) and exposing themselves to as much as possible to multiple disciplines. It is risky and expensive.....and a tough way to make a living....but it just seems that many are pushing themselves so fast to be at the Olympic level....sort of like how many are pushing young horses fast to move up the levels. And many are wanting to be "riders" without having to pay the dues of being a great rider which besides exposing your self to all of the other disciplines...is mucking stalls, grooming and doing the other non-riding aspects that makes a good horseperson.

ETA: I'm also pretty sure many of the great horsemen of years past...do have college degrees (not all but many). A business degree is pretty darn helpful if you plan to be a pro. There is no reason why someone aspiring to ride at the highest levels (or even if they have gotten some experience at those levels) can't keep training and go to school and work other jobs. They may not be able to ride at Adv while in college (although some do)...but depending on their choice of school that is where they can get exposure to other disciplines or starting a youngsters etc. Is it hard...yes...but the non-riding skills that can be learned in school (analytical thinking, communication skills, etc.) can help them become great horsemen and offer alternatives if riding doesn't work out.

sidepasser

Apr. 7, 2008, 06:32 PM

I also remember my cousins making me hand graze their show horses when I was a kid just for an opportunity to sit on one of them. They said I could learn just from standing there holding the lead and I reckon I did learn a few things like patience, how to be quiet around horses and how to get a headstrong horse to come along where I needed it to go. But yes, I think for the first five years I rode horses, it was due to the kindness of others but I had to work for and earn every ride - mucking out, grooming, bathing, cleaning out the trailer, loading the trailer, and so forth - and I had better get it "right" or no ride that day. A ride might be a 15 minute walk around the paddock or it might be hauling out to an arena for an hour long lesson..but every ride other than my own horse had to be earned the hard way.

Things have changed alot since then, but I compared that experience to the working students today, except I was younger and there was not so much emphasis put on showing, but on learning the basics of horsemanship first. Being judged "ready" was really a big step and actually being given a nice horse to ride was a result of a lot of time spent learning first. I was never paid, but the entry fees and hauling were paid and any earnings from a barrel race or other event were taken by the owners. My reward was getting to ride the "nice" horses and being coached for a class for free. Seemed worth it to me as that was the only "formal" lessons I had until I was out of the house and on my own.

Now I see riders who can't groom up, can't diagnose simple first aid problems, but can ride very well. Have we advanced or do we now have many riders who can only have a horse if someone else takes care of it? Does that make one a better rider or one that is more competitive or does that seem to take away from ability to read a horse and therefore limit the rider's competitiveness? I feel that if one can't care for a horse from feed to riding it does limit the competitive aspect, others probably disagree.

BarbB

Apr. 7, 2008, 06:38 PM

bornfreenowexpensive, I agree 100% with your post.

But I don't think this is confined to the horse sports arena. I don't know where the age cutoff is, I am so far at the other end of the spectrum...maybe it was a gradual thing. But GENERAL knowledge does not seem to be valued in our society today. Education is about making a living. High school kids are choosing a career path and specializing their education.
The liberal arts college is a thing of the past. You learn the exact skills that you need to complete a degree/get a job/win an award....the idea of knowledge for knowledge sake is scoffed at.
Anything you need to know you can find on the internet, why would you want any more than that?
I think that any young person right now who has a well rounded education, regard for knowledge and curiosity about lots of different things has either been taught these things at home or went to a school that is a relic.

Transfer this to the horse world.....why do you need to know anything other than how to ride THIS type of horse in THIS type of competition.
You learn some general skills about horse care, but if it doesn't really apply to your type of competition, why bother? And as far as watching and learning and heaven forbid, trying another type of competition just for the learning experience...that is a waste of time, literally, it is taking time away from the narrow focus that is supposed to lead to success.

Yes, I know there are exceptions, there are people of all ages who are curious, seek out knowledge etc etc....I am just pointing out that this does not seem to be valued in society today, so if the drive doesn't come from inside there isn't much encouragement.

What I see is that a modern 'pro' is a specialist. General knowledge is for the amateur (read: dabbler or wannabe).
What I grew up with was that the 'pro' was the one with general knowledge, it was the amateur that had the narrow focus of one discipline and one path.

The problem with this in horse sports is the horse. The horse still needs, respects and responds to the person with the wide general knowledge of horse behavior, needs and wants. The person who has time to bond with the horse and doesn't consider this a waste of time, the person who puts the horse first because that is his partner, not a vehicle to success.

I would think that car racing or skiing have not been diminished by this shift in values in society....horse sports have.

I don't have the answers....just my take on denny's post and bornfreenowexpensive's answer.

EventerAJ

Apr. 7, 2008, 06:44 PM

Excellent topic.

Denny, I remember a "Between Rounds" that you wrote several years ago, I believe it was about "We need more 'Cowboy' in our riders." I used to have a copy of it, but I think it was lost on my old computer. :( If you still have it, could you re-post it? Would COTH mind? It was a GREAT piece, I think I even did a report on it for my hs soph English class...!

Anyway, I DO agree that some of today's riders seem less-rounded. Many contributing factors, including $, time, land. But no matter how you slice it, I believe the rider who's worked, sweat, bled, and cried, through success and failure, on many different horses, doing many different things... that rider has *so* much more to draw on in any circumstance. It teaches you your limits, your strength, your capabilities-- what you CAN do, and what you can't. (and, usually, WHY! as in, "My leg is strong and secure, and my upper body is back... or else this rank little 2 y/o *will* send my butt flying!")

Having a wealth of experience is so helpful to draw on, even if only for confidence. As Denny said about hunting, knowing that you've galloped down a slick, muddy, rocky slope to an upright and just *sitting tight* and letting your horse negotiate the obstacle... you get a whole lotta confidence when you make it to the other side. You learn from imperfections, from mistakes, perhaps more than you learn from routine perfection. And by challenging yourself to something new, something beyond your current comfort zone, that's how you grow.

I think the concern is for the upcoming generation of YRs who simply train and compete; often well-mounted, well-schooled...but not well-rounded. It's hard to blame them sometimes; I know I'd be less inclined to take a (parents' purchased) $$$ advanced horse out "cowboying." The pressure to compete, to move up, to win, seems to take place of ride-anything-learn-everything. In the short term (it seems, at least), to be successful you must be focused and dedicated; that focus doesn't necessarily expand across the horizon, but perhaps just includes little sphere of dressage, xc, sj. I think some are worried about these YRs, if/when they become the teachers of tomorrow.

I am very fortunate. I was allowed to learn on great horses; not fancy ones, but good-hearted hard-trying animals (call this "grade school"). When ready (13 or 14), I brought along young horses-- again, nothing fancy, no pressure, but great teachers who taught me how horses learn, and how to stick (call this "high school"). I was a ws/bm/groom/asst tr for a wonderful ULR who topped off and specialized my education ("college"), taking me from training level to advanced (making my own horses). I now have a job where I ride all sorts, from breaking TB yearlings, to conditioning old field hunters, teaching, and training. I'm also learning (hands on!) about breeding, foaling, and racing. All this stuff only helps me become a better rider, and a better horsewoman. I can't make it to the top as quickly as some better-financed riders have, but it will be very fulfilling when I get there.

pwynnnorman

Apr. 7, 2008, 06:46 PM

Be careful with the statement on how well you compete. It took me back for sec. You see, the problem is that we don't have horsemen nor do we have riders. We have competitors. We have competitors that forsake the welfare of the horse in order for the win. We have competitors who will ride in inexperienced horse over a course and overface them.
I want to see that we have horsemen in our sport. Not competitors. I don't care how much publicity we lose because Suzie doesn't have a good face and needs a nose job. As long as she can ride and makes the horse's welfare an absolute. That's the essence of our sport, period. And we've lost it.

I chuckled a little about this, LisaB. It occurred to me that it depends on what "it" is, doens't it? IMO, the current trends could become something of a vicious circle that do indeed redefine what "it" is...alas (and, just to be clear, I'm not sure "it" started with the new format or somethign else). But then, that's what the sport is struggling with right now, isn't it? I hope it can eventually be redefined in a way everyone can be happy with (and proud of).

Howvever, I also think that a lot of the wishes expressed here are pipe dreams. Wistfully wishing for yesteryear ain't gonna bring it back. Sorry, but I'm a realist with this. As several have stated, we're talking about more than a sport's trends. We're really talking about fundamental changes in the social trends that define how goals are pursued.

Eventing can't escape what nearly all other horse sports (I think maybe endurance is an exception) have caved in to: hyper-specialization, both in horses (e.g. that lovely new term: "purpose-bred") or in riders. Indeed, I wonder just how many other sports some of the top German riders (in dressage, jumpers and eventing) did when they were growing up? I know, I know--somehow, eventing in this country is supposed to be something MORE than just a competition, more than a sport. I must admit, in THAT sense, I think it's over. Just as purpose bred horses aren't being bred specifically for stamina or soundness any more (another interesting discuss from the breeders forum), competition riders aren't being produced for versatility any more either. Perhaps what it is is that the moment you make it a profession, you make it a specialty?

Gnep

Apr. 7, 2008, 07:30 PM

PW,
The last cave in happened when we got rid of the real 3D.
The real thing needed some of the skills of a allaround and well rounded horse person.
the real 3D was a rather long affair, a real love affair, today its a quicky between a cup of coffee and heading out the door.

pwynnnorman

Apr. 7, 2008, 07:40 PM

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines, too Gnep. And here I was all for the short format, quite frankly. I just didn't anticipate how it would change actual operational aspects of preparing for and completing a major event. It never occurred to me that the intense familiarity would be eroded by the sheer amount of opportunity (to compete) that now exists. Gone, it seems to me, is the one-on-one-ness of developing the horse, of knowing its every lump, scar and sinew. No one articulated that this would disappear along with RT&S, but now I realize many did indeed sense it.

The demands of developing a horse than can endure--that's what has swept the horsemanship out of the equation, I think. Not "demands" in terms of techniques and training, but rather in terms of management and scheduling and planning and selection and maturation and all that deliberate deliberation stuff.

fourhorses

Apr. 7, 2008, 07:51 PM

I totally agree with you Wynn -- and with Denny, the OP. And sadly, it doesn't seem as though either reality can exist side by side.

There's just too much invested, literally, in showing horses anymore. The day of the all-arounder kid with the all-arounder horse, putting in hard work at being, well a horseman, and making it to the top to the point of being brought along, groomed for a professional horse career are over. Today you've got to have a fancy horse/pony to get noticed even at a local level -- it's the kids who win pretty ribbons, even at so trite a thing as the county fair, that get chosen for youth teams, and hence scholarships, or who have the money to go to the big trainers and hence to the big shows (yes, even at so trite a level as the blinking state level -- isn't that ridiculous?). This in turn gives them access to fancy horses to ride for wealthy clients....even if said kids, now well on their way to being professionals, are so sadly lacking in some of the most basic precepts of horsemanship/equitation/management, heck, even lacking in education and ethics in general. Society likes a winner above all else (except maybe stardom and a designer label, which is also part of the mystique here) -- and so we have a lot of hothouse horsemen/women who have to ride specialist horses (which the breeders have provided, but you have to pay for them) over specialist courses...and they really can't do much else, which of course just perpetuates the legacy.

I bring up the county fair, because while we tend to focus on the very top riders it's the middle of the roaders and the local yokels that need to be paid attention to, perhaps even moreso. Top riders are usually good enough to compensate a bit for any holes in their education (at least it's hoped); top riders don't get to the top without having a little bit of chops. Yes, I have seen less earning of dues at the top, but it's the trickle down that concerns me -- at the local levels you used to be able to find horsemen/women who were at least competent; the younger crop by and large I wouldn't let anywhere near either my horses, my kids, or my barn for fear of what could happen. And the horse world, like any, has its base in the local level. Either that, or there will be a complete break between the upper and the lower levels of competition, and a break between the upper and lower levels of the horse world (witness some certain posts) -- this also would be a detriment, as neither really can exist all that well without the other -- neither would grow.

And when something stops developing it starts to die.

Outfox

Apr. 7, 2008, 07:54 PM

Denny, I remember a "Between Rounds" that you wrote several years ago, I believe it was about "We need more 'Cowboy' in our riders."

Unfortunately, even out here in CA, a 'cowboy' rider is still a derogatory statement. As a matter of fact, I remember a local eventer that included foxhunters in these kind of derogatory statements, "Oh man, I totally foxhunted down to that fence," which was implying that he did nothing to ride his horse to the jump. This coming from an eventer that has never foxhunted.

This is the kind of egotism that has evolved in our horse sports today. It is a shame.

I wish riders would try to be more competitive in their own barns, rather than trying to wear a large badge of competitiveness at the events. The first will speak for it's self at the event. The latter is mostly words.

2ndyrgal

Apr. 7, 2008, 09:34 PM

and here's why. I went to try a horse for the second time during a lesson with a very well respected ULR/Trainer at her barn. When the lesson was over, I wanted to hack out a bit, go "up the hill" with him. Since I wasn't familiar with the trail, she threw a bridle on someone very famous' old World Cup horse (most of you would know him) and rode him BAREBACK. Now, this woman is several years older than me and I am not young. I thought it was great, but not unlike something I still do. On the other hand, I saw some rather overmounted young ladies at a dressage clinic this weekend who were riding gigantic, pricey warmbloods, but had their horses' tendon boots on incorrectly. But they did match their shirts and saddle pads. Sigh.

Debbie

Apr. 7, 2008, 10:09 PM

Wynn, am I hearing an epiphany? I do think that's a serious aspect of a fundamental shift. I used to marvel at the few riders that had 2 or 3 mounts in a traditional 3 day and now most pros have at least 3 and usually more as a matter of course. You're right that you can't know every bump and sinew of that many horses.

I do understand, at least in abstract, why "pro" riders welcomed that change. I've been close to riders who experienced the heart ache of training for a traditional 3-day and having their horse not be able to handle the conditioning. It is a heart ache and a loss on many levels, but you do know what you have (or don't have) under you when you do make it to the event.

I grew up cowboying around the countryside on my horses like many on this thread and I earned a lot of knowledge with wet saddle pads, but then I met a friend who grew up at the track and on the polo field and earned a whole new appreciation of what I didn't know -- particularly about legs and lameness. Another friend gave me exposure to sport horse breeding and another universe of knowledge There's always so much new to learn.

The marketplace doesn't demand that knowledge though. In my area, I know no fewer than 4 young pros under 25 who have their shingles out. At least 2 of them that I've personally talked with have waiting lists for training horses. I'm not knocking their skills in any way, but there is no way in their short lives that they've been exposed to the breadth of experience that Denny is referencing. And there's no motivator for them to seek it, they have full barns and thriving businesses without it.

Bensmom

Apr. 7, 2008, 10:32 PM

I've really enjoyed reading the perspectives on this thread.

I also ran wild on my pony in the little town in which I now live -- I could even ride her up to the store, drape the reins over the rail and go in and buy her an apple.

But, I took a long vacation from it, because other activities were considered the "in" thing to do. Once I graduated from law school, my love of horses and riding woke back up with a vengeance -- and I ended up with horses that I probably should never have ridden or owned, but boy, I can sit on anything now! :lol:

But, I've noticed what Denny is talking about, to a degree. I started riding endurance -- just limited distance and not to win, but rather to have something to do with my horses when I was stuck in a position of being unable to teach my rank TB to do much of anything without lessons, which following the beginning of my divorce, I couldn't afford.

So, I thought, how hard can trail riding at speed be, and gee, my horses will just get fit for what I really do!

Boy, have I learned a TON. My seat is a LOT better, just because of the hours I've spent in the saddle. Many of the mysteries of "feel" in dressage have been revealed to me as I have trotted down the trail. I've learned TONS about balance, weaving in and out of the trees on a mountainside, single track with LOTS of rocks.

I've also learned about horsemanship. A great deal, as I've had three get hurt.

But, I've also learned that many people in the eventing world get this "look" when I tell them what I've been doing. As if I've betrayed the true spirit of eventing, or sold out, or given up altogether. Why in the world, since my TBs do so well, at least when they aren't hurt, at limited distance, shouldn't I be able to do that, and to event?!

I've run into that attitude again and again, both blatant and slightly hidden.

It always surprises me -- heavens, what would people say if I'd taken the same horse to rope cows that I've evented (I've done that, btw, back when I was getting started!)

So, not only do I not see people doing this (my endurance friends, btw, also think that you do one or the other and not both. As if I've given up my other sports because I now train and compete in limited distance) but I run into prejudice, spoken and unspoken, from both sides because I think I can do more than one sport with my horse and still be a dedicated lover of eventing.

The other thing that has been really evident to me is that the kid that really wants to make it and just lacks the horse to ride has been REALLY hard to find.

I have some nice horses here, and though I've had a couple of people interested in riding and competing them, it would be a situation where I'd have to send them away, which I am not willing to do.

In all the time that I've kept my eyes and ears open, there is one kid locally that wants to do this bad enough that she'd ride anything you tossed her up on and would work her ass off for the chance to do it. Who took a pretty pissy pony and made him into a well trained mount, even past the time where her legs almost dragged the ground on him. Who took a pretty tough OTTB and has done a lot with him so far, and promises to do more great things. What has limited her more than anything has been transportation, and time.

I'm hoping to get her and one other COTH'ers daughter set up to make a little money on the side this summer and fall and to take over helping me bring back and condition and get ready to compete again some of my broken down OTTBs :) But, it has been tough to find anyone that really wants to do this badly enough to make it happen. Like I said, I know ONE kid like this, and if I could kidnap her, I would. (talkofthetown, have you figured out I'm talking about you yet? :lol: )

One of my favorite stories about Karen O'Connor is the one where she dragged her mom's kitchen table and chairs in the yard to jump -- that is the sort of want to I just don't see much any more . . .

Libby (who hopes to keep doing distance and to event again, and to hope that each makes me better at the other!)

4Martini

Apr. 7, 2008, 10:43 PM

After reading this, I'm curious if this new structure would not create new opportunites. Would it open the opportunity for star grooms and stable managers? Those who take on the roles that would have been filled by the riders in the past. Is it bad - or is it just further specialization and division of labor? If one person can do it and be sucessful then another person has to try it to compete with or beat them. Forgetting horsemanship - eventing is a competition and the rules are clear - people are just stepping up their ability to compete within those rules. If a pro can ride twice as many horses and leave the management up to another person who specializes in that would it not be a better system for being at the top of the competition? Your bench strength would be greater - allowing you a greater likelihood of a sound horse for a big competition.

(I'm just running with this - it's not where my heart is) But, if you had a wonderful groom - could the horse not potentially even get better care? Does the horse care if the person in the saddle feeds the carrots, or is he just happy to have carrots?)

This interests me b/c I always thought if money was not an issue that being a groom would be a really cool job - esp if it involved some conditioning etc. What if out if this a bigger role for grooms emerged?

sidepasser

Apr. 8, 2008, 06:56 AM

I think there is ALREADY a need for grooms that are good at management..sigh..

however, the ability to ride a good test/course/race etc. is also dependent upon being a horseperson too..

if you don't know what the horse is trying to tell you, can't tell a gimp step from a sound one, don't realize that Stud Muffin is a bit off his usual "look at me" 'tude..

how far can a rider go? I would think it would behoove the rider to understand and KNOW the horse, or at least know the horse well enough to realize that the horse is NQR..after all, eventing is hard on the horse. Catch riding is ok, but where's the partnership with the horse? Or are we heading down the slippery slope of "whoever's winning at the time can ride my horse and it will win too". Will only the "winning riders" get the nice horses, mmm? Is that where the sport is heading? Only the BNR's will get the nice horses, and you will only be able to win if you can afford to pay them - regardless of how nice your horse is? (and the grooms can handle the day to day management).

if that is where it is heading, then I fear for the sport..as that is going to cut out most of the folks who actually "think" they can compete at the higher levels. Who wants to compete knowing they will never have a chance to get ahead..

mmm? sort of reminds me of where some of the the other horse sports have went..depends on who is sitting at the end of the lead as to what you get. (and before everybody starts squawking about that's not really the way it is..unless you live under a rock..it is the way it is in some circles...who you know, and how big is YOUR BNT).

Right now - you have the stars of eventing..and everyone else.

Perhaps that is how it should be..on the other hand, if I gave over the showing of a horse to a BNR, I would expect that person to damn well know if my horse was NQR or not, and not have to depend on the groom running behind screaming "stop, he's lame!".

It's supposed to be all about the horse..but is it now going to be all about the competition? That is NOT a good thing for the horse - IS IT? Just how many shows do you think a horse can handle in a year? will it depend on the pocketbook? the bookings the ULR has? But then again, maybe it will open up the world a bit for the pro grooms and they can get paid what they are worth..in another generation they might be the only ones who actually can tell a sound horse from a lame one other than vets and farriers.

Sannois

Apr. 8, 2008, 07:02 AM

J Swan

Apr. 8, 2008, 08:29 AM

I remember the article Denny wrote - he was spot on. Too bad the word "cowboy" has a derogatory connotation. Jimmy Wofford has also written some articles in Covertside about what foxhunters can learn from other sports.

I'm a Wofford/Emerson groupie; I cheerfully admit!

It's pretty scary that there is a school of thought that foxhunters don't ride their horses to fences. I guess it speaks to the riders complete ignorance of hunting. That comment speaks volumes to me.

We don't walk the course, there are no ambulances, staff, and we're in the middle of nowhere. Hidden wire, holes, large numbers of horses galloping, branches, vines, cactus... it's real cross country riding.

I've seen some off the best and worst riding out in the hunt field. But what is true of all the riding I've seen - is that the rider is handy. A handy rider that can roll with the punches. Same with the horse.

The rider may not have the perfect position; and he may not win ribbons in the show ring. But he/she can ride to hounds - and that requires a keen eye, a steady hand, some bravery, some foolishness, good sportsmanship, and the ability to stay in the middle of the horse and go forward and straight no matter what. A handy horse, a handy rider.

Skills that easily translate to eventing - or to any horse sport.

Besides - had that guy really "foxhunted" his horse to a jump - he would have been trying to screw the cap back on his flask while doing it - and there would be a bunch of dogs running around underfoot. And neither the horse nor rider would blink. :D

It's quite a shame that folks feel it's appropriate to seriously denigrate one sport to make theirs look better in comparison. Every horse sport has something to learn from the other; particularly since people are specializing so much and no longer (generally) are all around horsemen.

Eventers and endurance riders take conditioning pretty seriously; which most foxhunters do. But we could still learn a great deal about legging up our hunters by paying attention to what those guys do. Most horses and riders could benefit from more dressage - and many many riders could use longe line lessons to tune up. The dedicated trail rider is good about desensitizing/bombproofing - which all horses can benefit from. Heck - I think my own field hunters could benefit from exposure to cutting - cuz we've had to round up loose livestock out hunting!

I dunno - Lord knows there are a lot of jokes about each sport - and when it's in good fun - there's nothing wrong with it.

But what I'm seeing in our up and coming riders is almost no diversity in their backgrounds. That goes for Pony Club, kids just taking riding lessons, and that trend continues as the person grows up. Specialization long before they have a good base of general knowledge and exposure to different sports and activities.

Maybe it's a sign I'm getting old. My niece recently told me that I'm not as young as I used to be, and she had to explain to me who Hannah Montana was. And I just had to buy a stronger pair of reading glasses...

Unfortunately, even out here in CA, a 'cowboy' rider is still a derogatory statement. As a matter of fact, I remember a local eventer that included foxhunters in these kind of derogatory statements, "Oh man, I totally foxhunted down to that fence," which was implying that he did nothing to ride his horse to the jump. This coming from an eventer that has never foxhunted.
t

flyingchange

Apr. 8, 2008, 08:47 AM

It depends on the hunt ....

Handsdown some of the worst riding and horsemanship I have ever seen has been in the huntfield. And not just one or two riders, but herds of overhorsed, untrained, unsympathetic men and women who spoil the hunting for everybody. Who ride with a steel fist, horses mouths gaping open, backs inverted. horses absolutely having a terrible time of it and seriously frightened by their riders. They invariably have stops at the jumps but insist on continuing to ride in first field, and, since many of them are loyal members and pay their dues, as well as make donations to the hunt, these idiots tend to have their colors.

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT the case with all of the hunts out there. There are hunts where members DO know how to ride - if they didn't they would be quickly dismissed from the field by the FM or secretary. Unfortunately, with many of the other types, the FMs riding skills and horsemanship are even worse than those of their worst members.

One particular hunt here in VA had a horse die out hunting 2 years ago. The horse had been run into the ground - literally. This was with a hunt that is known for just tearing around the countryside, fox or no fox. The FF FM just wants to GO! So on this sad day he had the field out galloping and galloping and galloping and galloping. Got to a coop and this particular horse went to jump it and collapsed. Overexertion.

I have always loved foxhunting - have been doing it since I was 10 years old. But as much REALLY good riding and horsemanship is in it there is also much, MUCH truly horrifying riding by people in it for the "status" who have no idea what they are doing and no sympathy for the horse. So, the "foxhunting" to the jumps is a description that is, unfortunately, based on a lot of truth. Again, this is not true of all hunts, but is most definitely reality for many.

J Swan

Apr. 8, 2008, 09:13 AM

I did write that I've seen some of the best and worst riding in the hunt field.

However, I will take exception to the overall tone of your post - because what you are really describing is poor horsemanship.

And that can be found in every sport. There are plenty of horses poorly ridden or trained, and plenty of riders out there for all the wrong reasons. It's simplistic to just condemn a sport, or castigate its participants, based on examples of bad horsemanship - or accidents that result in the death of horse or rider. Eventing sure seems to be a target for those accusations; and it's as unfair to that sport as it is to make the same gross generalizations about foxhunters.

If you can figure out a way to cleanse the horse world of bad horsemen, I'm all for it. And if you can also figure out a way to ensure those idiots are rendered sterile so they do not spawn more bad horsemen, that would be a boon.

:)

Sannois

Apr. 8, 2008, 09:31 AM

denny

Apr. 8, 2008, 09:33 AM

What Peter Gray said about the NZ superstar team that placed 1,2,4,and 5 in the `98 World Championships (I did my last BR on that) was that "they were cowboys at heart, very comfortable galloping at high speeds on bad terrain, but cowboys who had gone on to EMBRACE upper level dressage and show jumping."
It doesn`t END with being a cowboy, but it STARTS there.
That may be a missing piece for some of our upper level newbies?

canyonoak

Apr. 8, 2008, 11:01 AM

<<comfortable galloping at high speeds on bad terrain>>

I think THIS is what separates the riders,bad from good, successful from less successful, safe from not-safe.

Bruce Davidson had a horse die underneath him, sure--but Bruce can read terrain.
Mark Todd can read terrain.
etc etc.

They can read terrain because of the many years they have spent, under all conditions, riding up and down, outside and over (and maybe under ha ha).

And as the terrain is disappearing, so must the opportunity disappear.

And the decision to buy a younger rider a horse that ALREADY handles terrain may inspire short-time confidence, but dfoes no good down the road at higher levels, with more speed and less knowledge of how to hande the ground conditions.

fourhorses

Apr. 8, 2008, 11:42 AM

And with that we come to the endgame of this little discussion on how to make eventing safer:

the only guaranteed way to do so -- take money out of the equation; whenever money starts getting poured into a horse sport the levels of horsemanship/sportmanship/ethics start to go down the tubes -- not by everyone, but it becomes noticeable after a while and once the shift does occur it becomes nigh impossible to get rid of -- can you really blame the professional for wanting to make as much money as they possibly can? can you really blame the breeder or dealer for wanting to see the value/prices of their stock go up as high as the market will allow?

Look at racing and the money machine involved in every aspect of it-- there are some wonderful, knowledgeable horsemen in that sport and some superb displays of good sportsmanship/horsemanship and ethical management practices....but it's also full to the gills with vicious, crooked yokels who are all about getting theirs at the expense of everything else under the sun, and how many racehorses get ate up in a year's time? How long and healthy is the average racehorse's life?

Look at the stock horse, Arab, and saddle horses -- how many graphic tales have you heard coming out of them? What is their prize money like? What's the atmosphere like at their shows? H/J? Dressage? Have any of you noticed a shift in behavior in any of these relevant to a change in the amount of material gain available to the people involved? How many young, "throw them up on the ring hoss and watch em rake in the ribbons for us" riders have started to proliferate any of the above mentioned areas of the horse world? Are those youngsters even allowed to do anything more than that, and if not, why do you think that's so?

Noticed any of the same shifts in eventing lately?

fourhorses

Apr. 8, 2008, 12:09 PM

also wanted to add this:

I always wanted to be an eventer as a young girl -- and did all those wonderful, crazy, free things with my (decidedly plebian) horses growing up. Never got the chance to event though, except for a few isolated incidences -- the horse world around me revolved around breed shows. That's what most of the local trainers/instructors were into and that's what you did. Since my parents were unwilling to spend out money on that sort of thing I was relegated to anonymity and galloping my trusty steed around the countryside for much of the year except for the summer vacation horse show experience (which I'll be so bold as to say I didn't do too shabbily at) -- and fortunately getting to take lessons every so often with some, imho, truly good horsemen (because my parents did believe on the importance of a proper education at any endeavor undertook). But I never really got to event.
Now I'm wanting to go back to it -- albeit in a much more minor way for many reasons -- because it was my first discipline "love", and because, after many years in many different areas of the horse world I still think eventing, and possibly endurance, are/were the only things left out there for the thoughtful horseman. That it was about more than "throwing that purty young thang up on that ring hoss and watch em rake in the ribbons for us", and had to be due to its very nature. And that's why I always encouraged my own kids to seriously give it a shot -- even if only at the grasshopper level [my kids, who by the by, also galloped their decidedly average Joe, good allrounder horses around all over the place, got lessons from as good a horsepeople as I could send them to when possible, and who never really did the show circuit gig -- and are/were conversely thought of as being stupid and untalented by the local horse crowd because they don't have bunches of pretty ribbons from local breed and saddle club shows].

And I see that the sport I've been waiting to come back to is starting to change -- maybe not for the better, probably for the inevitable. And while it heartens me to see that eventers seem to realize and care about this, and the powers that be at least seem willing to listen at least a tiny bit, it's still very dismaying (as dismaying as all the accidents and fatalities as of late). Eventing is sitting on the crossroads and the precipce from what I see -- there just simply is no way to go back to the "good old days", but the way of things now is very far from ideal -- and eventing is not the same as racing; in racing you could have fatalities and it will continue to exist because there is so much money in it, and most importantly money coming in from the outside. Mr. JQ Public does not place bets on the outcome of 3-day events and HT however -- the fatalies, the accidents, the ethical mistakes that happen within eventing will be noticed and decried more vociferously because while Mr. Public knows enough of racing to realize accidents happen, he doesn't know or care a fig about eventing. PETA could very well manage to get eventing outlawed in the near future, and to popular acclaim.

I think the answers to the problems within eventing are right there in front of everyone -- it's just that right now it's really going to be tough to enact them, if they ever are.
Perhaps, at least for my oh so selfish sake, some sort of middle ground can be achieved.

wannabegifted

Apr. 8, 2008, 12:43 PM

give me funds, and unlimted time...maybe I would....
whoops, I have to work full time, have a family, and try to support my horses...even then time and money come at a premium, not to mention the ease of finding horses to A) practice timber racing on (sorry, not going to take my eventer out to a timber race anytime soon) or B) people to let you ride their horses over brush or timber, etc. etc. etc.

tx3dayeventer

Apr. 8, 2008, 01:26 PM

Excellent observations, IMO. I was going to play devil's advocate to Denny's perspective on this along those lines, too.

I am beginning to suspect that the sheer expense (and accompanying very high standards) of the top of the sport have totally redefined what the "dues" are.

Look at the top younger riders today, how they got their riding education and where their top horse(s) came from and you see the trend...BUT the question is are they not prepared? I couldn't find any background on Clark Montgomery on his website or anything about where Up Spirit came from, but surely, surely he is the A-list example. How much time did he spend in other horse sports, I wonder?

Just throwing this out there. Clark grew up riding in Area V. He started eventing at 7 or 8. Rode the cutest QH and rode with a wonderful woman that really put great basics in him. He worked his butt off and clobbered all of us girls in the dressage phase (I always hated his awesome seat and leg position :D). He really did bring them up the ranks himself as his 2nd horse Maximum Objective he took from BN to Advanced and to Fair Hill ( I think). Maybe not now but he used to "start" all of his horses and take them up the levels himself. His parents/grandparents have NEVER imported a CCI**** horse for him like other YR's. He has ridden at that level due to his skill and ability on horses that he brought up the levels. Yes, his parents had the money to help him do whatever he chose to and support his habit but I will tell you, he bought the next horse based on what he got from selling the one he had. He has worked for numerous BNT for little or nothing, other than the great experience. I am pretty sure he had Up Spirit competing at Novice here in Area V when he lived in Weatherford. Someone more current on Clark would know.

As far as riding other disciplines... I remember we were about 14 or 15 and at Camino Real HT and him & Sean Johnson were out "team roping" on their horses (bareback mind you). Roping mailboxes, chairs, etc. just being boys. I know Clark has ridden more than just eventing, straight dressage, jumpers, etc. I think he even rode some reiners (?) or cutters (?) that his uncle had.

His website says nothing for who he is and where he came from.

Back to your regularly schedule discussion......

eventrider

Apr. 8, 2008, 01:44 PM

Clarks parents did import his last advanced horse from Australia going advanced, I think had done a 3* (the Chestnut..name escapes me now). Up Spirit was also imported and found for him by CMP, I am pretty sure, though he was green. That does NOT take away the fact that he is an incredible rider in any way though, or his training of the horses he has brought along, just that he has imported upper level horses already going.

Christan

pwynnnorman

Apr. 8, 2008, 01:53 PM

Wynn, am I hearing an epiphany? I do think that's a serious aspect of a fundamental shift. I used to marvel at the few riders that had 2 or 3 mounts in a traditional 3 day and now most pros have at least 3 and usually more as a matter of course. You're right that you can't know every bump and sinew of that many horses.

Definitely an epiphany, Debbie. But not an original one.

Anyone remember what Phillip Dutton said only a few years ago--about how and why he was cutting back on the number of horses he would be riding? That was actually what starting sensitizing me to this issue (the things about the profession one doesn't often consider).

And thanks for the Clark details, tx3. It'd be interesting to nail down just how much..uh, "cow work"?...he actually did. Do note I wasn't criticizing him when I used his name. It's just that he seems to me to be the current epitome of the "new" way of focusing on one sport. So far, from what you wrote, it does indeed seem like he specialized in eventing from a very young age. (Doing jumpers or dressage I don't think should count as "different" sports, do you? More like "complimentary" ones.)

tx3dayeventer

Apr. 8, 2008, 02:23 PM

Thanks Christian. I forgot about that horse of his Fox in Flight. The one he won the Markham Trophy on at Fair Hill. That is the one that was imported. I was referring more to the ones that got him to Fair Hill & Rolex the first time not kept him there :D He truly is a great rider but so are you. I love you on Cyriz, by the way! Ya'll make an awesome pair and I cant wait to see where ya'll go!!

PWynn- I did not think you were being derogatory toward Clark. You were asking about his background and I have ridden with/against him since we were both 8. I have known Clark forever! Area V might cover a lot of miles but we are (or were) a really closeknit group. And when I was talking about branching out.... I was more referring to the western aspects of it. Heck, even Will F (another Area V'er that I have known forever) roped, I think. Dressage & Jumpers really are just a back up of the eventing. I do not know if Clark got into Foxhunting while he was up at OCET in VA. I will say, there are not very many English disciplines here in TX :D Basically its dressage, SJ/HJ, eventing, or breed shows (AQHA,APHA, ApHA, etc.). Unless you live around one of the 3 tracks there isnt much TB action. But by gosh, there is a rodeo or roping in every tiny town.

KBG Eventer

Apr. 8, 2008, 02:48 PM

I think this whole thread is pretty interesting!

I believe I am guilty of specializing too much although I am not trying to on purpose. I am going to/have been trying to branch out so I become an all around horseperson and not just a rider. The problem is fitting in all those activites. My parents already do a lot for me, and I am not an only child. I am in high school from 8:00 to 3:35 most of the year which= homework, tests, projects, and on the weekends as well. Perhaps I need to try harder to bum rides off of people. I live 15-20 minutes from the barn so it would be kind of hard to walk/bike there. I would have to walk pretty far to a bus stop. Besides, it is not necessarily getting to the barn but getting my horse and I to whatever activity/different discipline/whatever. It would be awesome if I could ride my horse to places, but I would have to ride him down the interstate to get to most places. We are working on the barn situation, but I don't have any logging trails ( Heck, I don't even have ANY trails! I walk down the road to another farm so I can have access to jumps and walk around the edge of their pastures or I ride in my horses' pasture. I DO have access to a hay field, but I am strictly forbidden to the outer edge or else the farmer might come mow me down with his tractor :lol:). Many weekends are spent trailering out to my event trainer or going to events or Pony Club activities. Then, my dad travels a bunch. This is how it is for many kids my age. I promise a lot of us are *trying* at least to get our butts out there. :D

Although...having to walk down the road helps my dressage in some ways because we have to leg yield into the bushes quickly when a car comes (not much shoulder or any in some places). It can also be a bombproofing session, and when it rains there are HUGE puddles near the gate of the farm that I go through. I plan on getting myself out foxhunting this year if I can get someone to show me the ropes. I have contacted Shelby Farms Equestrian Alliance (8400 acre urban park that has an old cross country course and trails that I trailer into when I can. I am also fighting to help save it from development-ugh!) who are super friendly people. They have trail rides/hunter paces/speakers and are going to start letting me know when they have activities so I can try to join them.

I LOVE riding other people's horses/mulitple horses/different kinds of horses. One day we would like to keep our horses at home so we can perhaps have the hunter reject pony or whatever as a project for my sister and me. Boarding is too expensive and limited to do that right now though. I am going to try to get my butt on some of my dressage trainer's horses when she returns. I think I will have the opportunity to ride some of my event trainer's horses this summer as a working student. :)

KBG Eventer

Apr. 8, 2008, 02:52 PM

Oh yeah and one more thing (I am almost done with my novel so don't worry ya'll), I DO agree about how people need to get out in the open more. I really have never GALLOPED a horse except for a handful of times. I REALLY need to do that I would think....lol.

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 8, 2008, 02:59 PM

KBG---you have time. You do not need to try everything before you are 18;) A lot of my different experiences came during my college years early 20s (although I chased cows, rode polo ponies, and galloped around bareback as a kid too....even in a non-horsey not ton of land area--we did have trails and beaches....and the occasional golf course!). Go to a few rodeos....besides, they have more cute boys.

As for those saying they could only race ride and do other things with money....that is the point of this thread. Many of these experiences need to be done BEFORE the family and specialized business. It was very easy for me as a 20 something single person to find opportunities. I worked for people in CA and then up and moved to NJ then PA for new experiences. Always supporting myself with both horse jobs AND other jobs (like waiting tables)...but I was only supporting me and a dog. Usually I had more then one horse job at once...working full time in one barn--galloping or riding at another earlier in the morning. And most of the time...my other opportunities came from people who I met along the way. I could have learned about racing over fences from one of the best....met him in the Hunt field.....got that offer after he watch me ride a young hunt horse. So often doors are opened for new things while you are out there...but no, you are not generally competing all the time. But once you hang out that shingle as a "PRO" trainer and focus on competing...(or start that family)....it is very hard to be more free spirited to try new things.

That is I think one of the points. Young riders are specializing in only competing and starting new business on their own a bit too fast and once you are tied down.....it is that much harder to really branch out more unless you do have family money supporting you.

sidepasser

Apr. 8, 2008, 03:41 PM

melodiousaphony

Apr. 8, 2008, 05:02 PM

Read about the great old USET riders, and compare what they did to what most of the younger riders have done, and you will see that many of them were TOTAL HORSEMEN.
So part of what`s wrong today is that too many---not all, but too many---of the current riders simply don`t have the same credentials that the golden oldies had.
When a rider has "done it all", evented, timber raced, foxhunted, ridden endurance, showed hunters and jumpers, galloped racehorses, broken yearlings and two year olds, all that "stuff", if gives them an enormous pool of experience from which to draw.
So if "you guys" want to be like "those guys", you can do it, but it ain`t going to come easy, and it ain`t going to come overnight.
Not sure I'd trust me on a track with a horse but I'd love to try. I was really tempted to go to Suffolk Downs (less than 15 minutes from my apartment) and plead for rides, but then I picked up a horse for a friend there. After talking to the trainer she got the horse from, who was an awesome lady, I'm so shocked by the conditions there that even if I could, I'm not sure I would want to exercise horses there. What I *should* find is a TB farm and help til they let me sit on something. Too bad farm = at least an hour in some direction, which is the trek I already make to ride my own horses.

::sigh::

Though if you let the mare and I at some cows, I'm sure she'd LOVE to have a go. 'Til we find cows, I'll stick to chasing geese, and turkeys once they stop skanking it up in the woods. Heidi, unlike Spot, thinks that large feathered things don't eat horse but need to be dealt with via a hard chase.

All that said, I completely agree. In my (hopefully only one) float year between finishing my post-bacc pre-vet requirements and vet school, I want to try to see what there is to do. I have two awesome horses who'd probably be up for anything and I've always wanted to fox hunt :) At the very least, I want to slave away as a WS for someone who will smack a good, well rounded, horse education into me.

CANTEREOIN

Apr. 8, 2008, 05:12 PM

I had thought once of trying to find a local kid to ride for me, but it is very hard to do even if I paid all expenses for showing and keeping the horse. Parents work, and often the child has school activities, etc. to do so getting out to ride 3-4 days a week is hard.

If I could find a teen that wanted to ride, and had a nice foundation - it would be worth it to me to see my mare go out x-c. I have the arena, land, the horse, the trailer and truck for hauling and could pay the show fees, but finding the right person is very hard to do.

That seems like it would be a suitable situation for a teen or college student who can't have their own horse but wants the experience and the opportunity to show and would benefit me as I woudn't have to pay for training fees (boarding the horse out and having to pay ULR fees since I have my own place). The horse would get some experience. (oh btw - horse is already going under saddle and is not a bad ride/no vices on ground, exc. manners).

Does anyone else think that is a good/bad idea? Has anyone tried that before? Sort of a "pairing up" situation might be beneficial to others as well. Maybe I'm just an old optimist though..

Last year, when I wasn't ready, I looked for a high school senior that I admired their horsemanship and their riding ability. I found two wonderful seniors that were awesome riders but above and beyond that - were really good horseman.

It was a marriage made in heaven - almost - I had the horse, the trailer and some show fees. The only thing that really didn't work out was timing. If I had started earlier with the second senior, my horse would have had a fabulous eventing partner.

Then, I started eventing... now, I do it along with a professional who keeps her sharp at Training level until I can one day get there on my own.

Do it! Its a gift you give to yourself. They gave me text messaging, facebook and a lot of good times. Great kids with great energy.

sidepasser

Apr. 8, 2008, 06:53 PM

I may just try that - I don't think *I* could do anything above novice due to back issues but my mare is a tryer and she probably could go further than I ever could.

Of course the parents would have to buy in as well so the teen could have the time to get to ride..but with someone who was dedicated, it would be an opportunity for all concerned. Funny how when one ages one can afford to have the nicer horses and a bit for showing but then is so beat up physically that they can't do it themselves.

Life is always full of surprises though, and I never thought when I was riding in my youth that the biggest surprise of them all would be a failure of the body to cooperate with the "want to". If I were a horse, people would tend to say "suitable for light riding, tends to be lame on cold days and might require Adequan in the near future, good for beginners" lol.

Little Valkyrie

Apr. 8, 2008, 08:18 PM

Denny, thank you very much for bringing this up. I am aiming at riding professionally one day, but unlike so many younger riders today I do not only event and I fully realize the importance of true horsemanship. I was brought up riding snotty school ponies in the hunters and equitation, and rising basically anything that came my way...or trying at least. I also helped out at a hack string stable on weekends to get out on the trail, riding herd on a bunch of very clueless city people (not to rag on you city people that are in the know:)
When we made the move to a more rural part of the state, I decided that I wanted to try my hand at eventing, and Joined pony club. My first mare was a go anywhere, do anything type rescue girl who got me my "cow boy boots". Since then, I have had a small string of horses that gave me my "ballerina slippers" to hang up right beside those cow boy boots. When I started eventing, I was riding with a trainer who is also a whip with our hunt club, and after one hunt I was hooked. Three years later, I recieved my junior colors, and last year I became the only junior whipper-in for my hunt club. In addition to this, I ride dressage and jumpers on a fairly regular basis, and I have also ridden western, and done basically everything except saddleseat. I plan on galloping racehorses at some point, because I believe it is an invaluable experience. I plan on getting my A Rating in pony club at some point, because I think it highlights the importance of horsemanship, as well as riding. It is this varyiety of experiences that helps me everyday in my riding. I can now get on a varying assortment of horses and feel very competent (but not too over competent of course, because thats when we hit the dirt ;)
Hopefully trainers and riders alike realize the importance of getting out there and riding wherever and whenever, not just schooling in a ring

criss

Apr. 10, 2008, 11:58 AM

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless
beyond words.

When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of
elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of
restraint.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

--- Hesiod, Eighth Century B.C.
Come on, guys, let's not blame everything on "kids these days".

And I say this as a rider under 30 who grew up doing everything, riding all the bad horses, galloping my awful pony over awful ground (and I'm just DAMN lucky I never made a horse permanently lame, some of the things I used to do before I understood the value of good footing!). I won a belt buckle showing western (in 4-H, but it's still a big shiny buckle with my name and my horse's name on it :D). I've run barrels, chased cows, ridden on hairy narrow mountain trails with sheer dropoffs on the side, galloped and jumped bareback in a halter. I've also evented through T, and with any luck will get to P someday.

But you know what? I'm not that great a rider. I mean, I'm not awful, and I've had the benefit of a fair amount of fabulous instruction from some topnotch trainers. But I'm not as brave as the riders who've never had to know what it's like to get eliminated for falling off their horses at each of the first three fences at N. I'm not as good at seeing distances as the riders who learned to jump on horses that didn't chip every time.

I still have the horse I competed on as a teenager (I've had him since he was 8 and I was 10). I adore him. But the seat-of-the-pants learning I did on him, in some ways, HURT my riding. My mom could have afforded a slightly nicer horse--we never could have had a string of 5-digit-pricetag horses, but I could have had a horse that knew how to jump more than I did--and in my case, I have only my own stupidity to blame. I wanted to ride difficult horses. I wanted to prove myself by training my own horse. I still kind of do. I don't know if I'll ever go out and spend tens of thousands on a horse who knows the ropes, even if I can afford it someday.

So I think it's simplistic to say there are two kinds of riders, those with great horses/lots of money/good instruction and those who go out and ride everything they can. I think it's simplistic to say the latter are better horsemen. I've been both, a little bit, and I don't think that spending more time being the former would have made me a worse rider or horseperson.

fooler

Apr. 10, 2008, 12:08 PM

Come on, guys, let's not blame everything on "kids these days".

But you know what? I'm not that great a rider. I mean, I'm not awful, and I've had the benefit of a fair amount of fabulous instruction from some topnotch trainers. But I'm not as brave as the riders who've never had to know what it's like to get eliminated for falling off their horses at each of the first three fences at N. I'm not as good at seeing distances as the riders who learned to jump on horses that didn't chip every time.

I still have the horse I competed on as a teenager (I've had him since he was 8 and I was 10). I adore him. But the seat-of-the-pants learning I did on him, in some ways, HURT my riding. My mom could have afforded a slightly nicer horse--we never could have had a string of 5-digit-pricetag horses, but I could have had a horse that knew how to jump more than I did--and in my case, I have only my own stupidity to blame. I wanted to ride difficult horses. I wanted to prove myself by training my own horse. I still kind of do. I don't know if I'll ever go out and spend tens of thousands on a horse who knows the ropes, even if I can afford it someday.

So I think it's simplistic to say there are two kinds of riders, those with great horses/lots of money/good instruction and those who go out and ride everything they can. I think it's simplistic to say the latter are better horsemen. I've been both, a little bit, and I don't think that spending more time being the former would have made me a worse rider or horseperson.

I 'rode' for 4+ years before my 1st lesson & then lessoned on my horse, Fooler, who was the nut case that I made him. However as I learned more in lessons and applied it to Fooler, he became a really steady eddy sort (compared to our former selves)
Odd way of saying - I believe that riding by the seat of my pants helps. You have a different feel of what the horse is doing or thinking. When your striding is off, you know when to kick on & grab mane or when to turn out.
And most importantly - you understand the value of a well-trained horse and the joy of being able to 'just' ride!

criss

Apr. 10, 2008, 03:34 PM

Odd way of saying - I believe that riding by the seat of my pants helps. You have a different feel of what the horse is doing or thinking. When your striding is off, you know when to kick on & grab mane or when to turn out.
Well, okay, maybe YOU do. I am telling you I do not. My riding over fences has been hurt, not helped, by many years learning to ride by the seat of my pants on a horse who wasn't confident (because I couldn't/didn't give him the confidence he needed). I would have been a better rider (at least in terms of jumping) if I'd had a packer first, so I could have internalized what it feels like to get the distance right, instead of internalizing what it feels like to drop the horse because I was afraid, resulting in nasty stops, resulting in more fear, resulting in more dropping the horse.

All that said, I fixed that problem with that horse--our last competition together four years ago was a nice, laid-back, easy run at N where neither of us looked at anything cross-eyed, I balanced him, and he didn't stop. He then went on to help a tiny little slip of a 12 year old regain her confidence after she'd had a rough time dealing with a stopper of her own.

But it's still something I have to work very, very hard on. The fear is always right there any time I jump anything that pushes my comfort level with whatever horse I'm on. I still teeter on the edge of giving up and getting scared and dropping the horse and getting dumped on my head. I am pretty sure that, had my early jumping experiences been on a horse who had protected me and found the distance for me, I wouldn't feel like the abyss was quite so close, and as a result I would be a better rider.

When I've had the chance to ride a horse who protected me, it's improved my confidence tremendously, and has carried over almost 100% to the ones who I know won't protect me, so it's not that I'm saying I'd be a better rider if I never had to ride tough horses.

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 10, 2008, 04:13 PM

Criss---I think you are missing the point of cowboying around. That doesn't mean that someone thinks you need to ride an unsafe horse or have your confidence shattered. I think the point was stressing the importance of doing lots of different things and many things un-structured but also structured.

Riders DO need good instruction....and I think there is a lot of benefit to starting with a horse that knows its job, is sane and has a good heart. And when riding at the UL....most top and experience horsemen will say, better to learn on a horse that knows its job. Green horse green rider (green for the level) is NOT considered a good thing by anyone who has been around horses. Can folks learn that way...sure...but it isn't ideal and often occurs because either parents don't know any better or there is no choice economically.

BUT much can also be learned by just spending time in the saddle running around the countryside....hopefully on a safe horse who will teach. I learned a hell of a lot from my first hony. She put me in the dirt more times then I can remember....but when I rode right...she was push button perfect. And I learned as much messing around on her as I did in my lessons. And I think that was the point of many....you need just plain hours in the saddle...and those hours need to be a mixture of cowboying around and structured. The cowboying is what helps develop instincts...the instruction finess...both of which are needed and experience helps you learn when.

Many of the great horsemen learned from great horsemen. They learned by doing a great many things and riding a great many horses (often better horses then they were riders at the time....who taught them things). Some things are learned in a structured manner by understanding the theory and having it taught to you with a guiding hand....and some things can only be learned by doing them and taught usually by a guiding (or not so guiding) hoof.

fooler

Apr. 10, 2008, 04:59 PM

Criss

Not saying life is perfect because of my background. Like you I do wish I had been able to sit on more 'trained' horses than I have. Which goes back to it is such a thrill to sit on one who knows what they are doing & will respond to the correct aid & teach you when you are right or wrong.

I believe those hours can teach you that you to think for yourself and you body to do things without your conscience thought

Also I still miss distances - just ask Thirdcharm about my lesson Monday night. I think I missed distances every possible way. But because I trust this horse, I was able to come back and do better.

I know where you are coming from, I have my problems from those pre-instruction years. Still some 30+ years later. But life is what it is and I can't change the past. I try to remember what I learned, on the horse is good, falling off is bad, and go forward.

Jean

deltawave

Apr. 10, 2008, 05:04 PM

I don't think ANYONE can learn what they need to know to be confident, competent and safe by riding any ONE type of horse, be it a home-made project horse (with all they have to teach us) or a saintly packer (ditto). The really good riders and horsemen have ridden DOZENS of each kind of horse, and everything in between.

Or, put another way, every kind of horse has something to teach us, but it sort of "takes a village". Or a barnful of horses, good, bad, generous, sneaky, good movers, bad movers, running fools, dirty stoppers, etc. etc. to give a rider a really well-rounded "education".

One can certainly learn to ride A HORSE very well, and the rapport that's developed with an individual horse over time is priceless no matter what, but the riders I really see that knock my socks off have done that DOZENS of times, with all different horses. I envy them the experience! :)

Janet

Apr. 10, 2008, 05:40 PM

I think the trick is to ride the saintly packers FIRST, and THEN work with the green beans.

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 10, 2008, 07:09 PM

I think the trick is to ride the saintly packers FIRST, and THEN work with the green beans.

Agree with you there....and ride the good experienced horse when doing something not done before...either a new discipline...or higher level.

Ideal way...not what I always did but what I would recommend.

criss

Apr. 10, 2008, 09:45 PM

Criss---I think you are missing the point of cowboying around. That doesn't mean that someone thinks you need to ride an unsafe horse or have your confidence shattered. I think the point was stressing the importance of doing lots of different things and many things un-structured but also structured.
And I've had that mix of structured and unstructured. And yes, it's made me a better rider in many ways. I am not afraid of hairy terrain, or of riding naughty horses (well, a little, the older I get the less I like it...ten years ago, I was much less chicken, but ten year ago I was still a teenager). So in that way, I fit the pattern very well. I've been-there-done-that in a lot of different horse sports. Not timber racing or hunter paces, because I'm from New Mexico, but the sports we did have, I tried most of.

What I'm trying to say here is, the people who lament the loss of the "good old days"--when everyone supposedly learned to ride like I did--are missing the point. First of all, those "good old days" are still here, it just depends on where you are. It isn't as if the ability to go out riding over interesting terrain as a kid just disappeared in the mid-70s.

Second, I DON'T think that learning to ride that way is a recipe for confidence in all parts of riding, based on my own experience. The people who are complaining about kids on ever-fancier horses are missing the fact that fancy horses DO have something to teach kids. I managed to fix my problem and fix my horse, but it was a long, often unpleasant road.

That's all.

RSEventer

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:15 PM

This is a very interesting thread- it's kind of a philosophy of riding thing, really.
I liked what..??..said:
"To build more all-arounders, you have to start with the trainers. The trainers can bring in clinicians who do different sports, introduce their kids to other ideas, take 'em out trail riding or give them lessons bareback.

Jimmy Williams was not just a noted jumper trainer, but a quite accomplished western trainer as well. You saw it in everything he did, as he freely borrowed ideas from one for the other."

I am a big fan of all the rider/trainers that were listed by Denny- and I wish that I could have seen some of them give clinics, particularly, Jimmy Williams.

I feel very lucky that I started taking lessons at a training barn with an Irishman who was known as the "go-to-guy" if you had a horse with a problem you could not fix. He is dead now, but I still remember his favorite saying, "Wet blankets make the horse, wet britches make the rider." He had every strange piece of tack known to mankind- but we used regular snaffles with simple martinagales on most everything. He invented an exercise machine for his young racehorses- to build up their stamina-it was a horse trailer with no bottom, so you would pull it behind the truck and they would trot along in it- a la Fred Flintstone!
He was generous with his time and advice and I learned basic horsemanship that I still am amazed when I see others neglect it- like- cool out your horse by walking it for a while when you are done working- duh! He was great with tending to horses legs also- there were so many horses he put me on and told me just to walk them when I was learning to ride. I never got hurt at his barn and was challenged to jump things I thought were impossible. What was the most important thing was to put the horse before yourself- I am amazed when I see people who do the opposite.
He never was a big-name trainer, but he loved people and horses and he was gifted with both. The only eventer that I have ever met that reminded me of him was Ralph Hill. I took one clinic with Ralph and he made the riding so much fun and yet we jumped things that I would have not believed were possible.
After reading this thread, I realize just how lucky I was to start my riding at Durbin Hill Farm!

bornfreenowexpensive

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:15 PM

What I'm trying to say here is, the people who lament the loss of the "good old days"--when everyone supposedly learned to ride like I did--are missing the point. First of all, those "good old days" are still here, it just depends on where you are. It isn't as if the ability to go out riding over interesting terrain as a kid just disappeared in the mid-70s.

Well...I don't think (at least I was not) saying that the good old days are gone...well they are but that doesn't mean more good days are not to come. I stated several posts ago how easy it was for me 10 years ago (and know riders today) doing many of the things suggested to make a great horseperson...(it didn't make me a great horseperson but that's probably because I lack the talent). What we were focusing on was the difference in generations. It is a change in attitude and expectations in the most current generation that is different more then the opportunties (although some of the open space is gone).....and I've seen this in far more things then just the horse world as have many experts and people who study these things. Every generation is different from the next....and one isn't better then the other...just different. BUT what many in this thread have observed is that some of these differences are affecting riding and perhaps not in a good way. It is a generalization and as with all generalizations....there are exceptions.

I also agree that fancy horses have things to teach a rider. And no one is saying that just doing a bunch of different horse activities will make you a great horseman....there does need to be certain degree of natural talent, drive and having the right teachers (both two legged and four)....and I would also add luck.

But that doesn't mean that things haven't changed... I think there are great things about growing up now...and not great things....and the point of this thread seems to be...are we going to see any more great horsemen like we had in the past? There seem to be indications that the conditions that encouraged the development the great horsemen of the past are not as prevelant as before.....but perhaps other there are other things available to this generation that were not available to past generations will still foster the development of a great horseman. For one thing....information is certainly more readily available.

Bensmom

Apr. 10, 2008, 10:39 PM

sidepasser -- I think your idea is a GREAT one and the only trick is finding the right young person to ride your horse. The one I mentioned earlier on this thread is the only local one I've ever found who really has the want to to make things happen. Once she has her own transportation, she'll be unstoppable in finding horses to ride and learning, all the while bringing along her own OTTB greenie.

I'm also hoping to get hooked up with another COTHer's daughter who is coming up to FSU in the Fall. She is not bringing a horse, so I am hoping that we can get it all worked out to have her ride Buzz for me this Fall. I've got three to bring back from injury layoff, and one that needs to be gotten fit and out and about and I'm only one person, so I am super excited that I might be able to hire these two young ladies to help me ride.

Can I pay a lot? No, but I can offer rides on some nice horses, entry fees, lesson fees and probably enough to help with gas money.

Hopefully it will work out for all sides!!

So, see what you can find -- I think it is a great idea!

Oh, and I have to say that I really love my little town to which development has not yet come. Harvey and I went for a brisk trot around the big field behind the house tonight and then cooled out by going for a walk downtown. We went to the Methodist Church, the city park, the Baptist Church and then came home.

If I could have gotten back onto the huge beast ( ;) ) I would have ridden to the post office and gotten the mail . . . :D

This seems to be one of the last small communities where you can do that sort of thing and I hope it stays that way!

Libby