horse shopping dilemas

[lexhex]

Hello all!
I was hoping to hear some words of wisdom regarding horse shopping. I am in the market for a new horse. I am an A/A new to Dressage (have been riding casually for many years: all kinds H/J to polo) and I am a new convert to the "dark side": the world of Dressage ;).
I am not sure how much showing/competing I am interested in doing...perhaps a few local shows (honestly, I am rather competitive and I am almost afraid to open that can of worms!) I have never shown before. Having fun, learning, growing, *bonding*, clinics, occasional trail ride of more importance than ribbons... I think.
Also, I have fallen for the looks and temperament of Friesians :eek: (more horse of my dreams), which are not as uber-talented and athletic as, say, WBs. My trainer's advice is to get something already trained to pretty high levels to learn on (that puts my budget more into the older WBs than a Friesian which don't always make it to upper levels). I have also heard arguments for growing WITH you horse just once level ahead of you....
I guess it all comes down to "pay now or pay later": either purchase price or pay your trainer.
So, go with a more emotional decision based more on temperament (Friesian) or go for athletic abilities (and perhaps a little more comfort) of a WB as I'm not 100% clear on my competitive goals....

emotion vs logic??

What are your experiences and words of wisdom?

Thanks in advance! :)

[Kuschel]

Well welcome to dressage - the more you learn, the more you will fall in love with this beautiful sport.

My recommendation is find a wonderful, safe, tolerant horse that has "been there", "done that" - and is tolerent of amateurs on his/her back. The few Friesians I have seen, appear to be very tolerant of newbies.

I takes many years to begin to grasp the basics, so if you buy a horse that is many levels above you, as many people will tell you, the horse will come back to your level. However, I would definately not buy a youngster, as "green" on "green" is a challenge.

Also, be ready for potential "heart ache" - as you deal with trying to get your horse sound, and alive (e.g. no colic). I would strongly recommend purchasing insurance, and making you sure you have an excellent vet and farrier.

Welcome to your new world.

[gamecock43]

From my observations of the sport...if you buy a really talented horse you need to pay a trainer to "keep the horse going". Otherwise the horse will very quickly regress to your level.
If you buy a horse to grow with...there are the plateaus you will hit where you feel you have been working for months and getting no where.
maybe ideally...is to get one or the other (well trained or inexperienced) but keep the horse in a barn that is full of very advanced riders. you are bound to run into and be friends with someone who will offer to work with your horse at a discount or free, offer advice to you, or let you get on top of their horse to get through a tough learning period.
i hope this was helpful insight

[Bayou Roux]

How 'bout leasing? Since it doesn't sound like you're sure what your "ultimate" goals in the sport are, why not try the best horse (most talent & training) you can possibly afford for six months, then lease a "lesser" (talent/trainging/cost) horse for six months? Learn without buying which way you'd rather go?

[Sabovee]

Get a Canadian! (Cheval Canadien/Canadian Horse)

Looks of a Friesian, but put together more appropriately for the sport - they can also JUMP! ... Oh ... and they come in more than just black :)

www.canadianhorselink.com

[mademoiselle]

Have you ever ridden a Friesan ?

I mean many people buy them because they love their look, but when they buy one they find them hard to ride.

I have been training a bunch of them for different people who were new to dressage or new to horses and decided to splurge and buy a friesan because they 'liked' them. They all ended up selling them down the road to buy something easier.

They are nice horses, but not really the kind of horse to learn dressage on if you have never done it before.

If you like the look, who you be interested in getting a Lusitano or a PRE ? They are not always very competitive but they are nice horses to ride and to do dressage on.

Just my .02 cents

[FlashGordon]

Hello all!
I was hoping to hear some words of wisdom regarding horse shopping. I am in the market for a new horse. I am an A/A new to Dressage (have been riding casually for many years: all kinds H/J to polo) and I am a new convert to the "dark side": the world of Dressage ;).
I am not sure how much showing/competing I am interested in doing...perhaps a few local shows (honestly, I am rather competitive and I am almost afraid to open that can of worms!) I have never shown before. Having fun, learning, growing, *bonding*, clinics, occasional trail ride of more importance than ribbons... I think.
Also, I have fallen for the looks and temperament of Friesians :eek: (more horse of my dreams), which are not as uber-talented and athletic as, say, WBs. My trainer's advice is to get something already trained to pretty high levels to learn on (that puts my budget more into the older WBs than a Friesian which don't always make it to upper levels). I have also heard arguments for growing WITH you horse just once level ahead of you....
I guess it all comes down to "pay now or pay later": either purchase price or pay your trainer.
So, go with a more emotional decision based more on temperament (Friesian) or go for athletic abilities (and perhaps a little more comfort) of a WB as I'm not 100% clear on my competitive goals....

emotion vs logic??

What are your experiences and words of wisdom?

Thanks in advance! :)

You sound like a nice amateur rider that wants to have fun with their horse, maybe show a bit. Buy for temperament first. Athleticism second.

Don't worry about specific breeds. For a nice, all-around horse that can do some dressage, hack around, trail ride, and just generally be a nice partner, limiting to specific breeds is doing yourself a huge disservice.

Also, call me crazy, I am new to this whole dressage scene.... but unless you want to be uber-competitive I can't see needing something trained to a ridiculous level. (And its probably going to cost a bundle.)

For your goals and desires it seems like there are plenty of horses out there that could do the job. Find a horse with a good brain and the rest will fall into place for you.

[lexhex]

Thank you for all your input thus far!

I have ridden Friesians (actually more so than WBs). I have actually fallen in love with a very expensive one who is trained up to 3rd level and is probably the most charismatic horse I have met.... at least 10k out of my budget.

I am currently taking lessons/leasing, but ya know, I think its time to buy (within the next 6 months). Part of that is I have spent most my life riding other people's horses and as wonderful as that was and I learned and grew tremendously with all of them over the years, I want my own. I actually just sold my first horse as we weren't such a great fit. That was the green with green combo. Now, the greenest I would consider is training or 1st. (I tell my girlfriends that I have my husband and my mortgage to consider! ;) before I go breaking myself!)

I hadn't really thought of pulling a horse down the levels so to speak, but I could see that.
I have been looking at the Spanish breeds as well, a little small though. Guess I want dog in horse form. (also easier as I am a sm animal vet) :)

thanks again and keep the input coming!!

[Ambrey]

How about a Friesian x? The right mix can be a little more well built for dressage, and a lot cheaper!

[shamrocker]

Definitely buy a horse that has "been there and done it". You will be so happy that you did down the line. DO NOT buy a youngster no matter what any one says....I've seen this mistake countless times.

Buy a horse that is easy to ride, and that you adore on the ground as well. Fancy means expensive, and the affordable ones can have issues that make them unsuitable for amateurs, and from the sound of it..you are really looking to have fun and to learn.
:)
Follow your heart and instincts when you go look at horses.

[FancyFree]

Guess I want dog in horse form.

Try a Hanoverian! My horse is a Golden Retriever inside. :lol:

How are you finding the horse market? I'll be shopping for my daughter this summer. I've been hearing that it really is a Buyer's market. Let us know how you do. Good luck!

[Ambrey]

I know this is a vast generalization and not always accurate, but when I realized I wanted a dog in horse form I found that geldings really won over mares. I know that's not what you asked, but that's what ended up happening for me :)

I have found breed a less than stellar predictor of temperment. I just came off a search for a horse for my daughter, and we found arabs that were huge puppy dogs and quarter horses that just weren't very friendly. The one we ended up with is half welsh, half mystery stranger in the night and would sit in your lap given the opportunity- my draft cross is the same way (but my friend's purebred percheron is much more reserved- sweet, but not in-your-lap).

Have fun!

[slc2]

Only a buyer's market for the hard to sell horse.

The dream horse plan makes no sense and will just wind you up spending a lot of money and getting very little further forward. It is far too easy to get taken and wind up with a lame horse or a totally unsuitable one that you can't ride. Wait til you know dressage better before you spend a lot of money on a horse.

The 'grow with the horse' plan only works for a small number of people though the less wealthy do it not so much by choice as necessity.

The biggest mistake people with less than a limitless budget make is spending money on a fancy horse to start, and then not getting enough lessons because the money is gone. Forget the warmblood, forget the friesian. They are too expensive. Get a cheap horse, and spend the money on lessons. There will be years and years of lessons, not just a couple months. Most people make the mistake of not planning to take enough lessons to learn to create the basics (rhythm, contact, connection, suppleness, forward) and they're in a world of hurt when they try to move up, both because they're vulnerable to every 'Quick Buck Charlie' that comes down the road with 'an easier way', and because they don't have the basics needed to build on.

My advice to the OP is to buy a 'schoolteacher', not terribly glamorous or fashionable breed, quiet, easy type horse trained to 2nd level - not a warmblood, instead, a quarter horse, qh cross, thb cross or other inexpensive type you are already familiar with (not a 'dream horse', not a friesian). Show locally, clinic, take lessons on that horse, learn as far as it knows (2nd level), and work with the instructor and try to see what pieces of third level it can learn.

If you still want to keep moving up at that point, sell it, 'improved' to third level, and buy a 4th level- PSG horse that is ALSO not a 'dream horse' and not a glamorous breed, but light, quiet and not too strong in the bridle, ride, clinic, show, lesson with it to PSG, see what pieces of i 1 it can learn, etc.

Plan on keeping each of the horses 2-8 yrs, and all the way thru be ready to change plans if your interest stops, but if you do, at least you have a horse that can very easily be sold to a good home and be wanted ('unwanted' and 'untrained' or 'difficult' = in dog food can these days, a well trained useful horse always gets a good home and is happy and comfortable where ever he goes).

If you continue to want to compete and move up, move on to the next logical step, NOT a 'dream horse'. Plan on needing the trainer to ride the horse 1x a week and taking 2 lessons a week to keep the horse's value (most of both horse's value are in their training).

THEN go buy the dream horse.

[FancyFree]

Only a buyer's market for the hard to sell horse.

I don't believe this is true. For what I'm looking for, a nice hunter horse for my daughter, there seem to be quite a few out there, for less money than I would expect to pay. I've been watching one who has gone down in price due to the owner's financial difficulties. With the economy the way it is, if you really look, you can find something nice at a relatively bargain price.

I do agree with slc about putting the bulk of your money in lessons. So many times, people will buy the Barbie dream horse, then end up getting over-horsed. Get something you can learn on. I agree with her about finding a schoolmaster. That would be an ideal horse for you to get your start on.

[betsyk]

Buy the horse that makes you want to go to the barn and RIDE, in bad weather, cold weather, hot weather, late at night, early in the morning, when you're sick, when your kids are sick... Sounds like you've ridden enough of other people's horses to have an idea of the difference between the ones you ride because you can, and the ones you ride because you WANT to. Buy the one who makes you want to drop whatever else you're doing and go RIDE.

I am in the midst of taking people's advice and (hopefully) spending about half what I've saved for the actual horse, and planning to use the other half for lessons over time. Talk to me in a couple years and see if I'm still glad I did it! My interest isn't in a particular sport, but in having a fun horse who likes to go and do different things and who thinks new things are fun. That opened up a lot more options than having to have a horse with aptitude or training in one specific area. So my advice is to think really hard about how you want to spend your horse time in the next 5 years or so and let that guide your search.

[Cowgirl]

It depends on what your goals are. If you really want to advance, you are more likely to do so on a trained horse. Green on green is not ideal, even when you have a good trainer. As far as bringing a horse down to your level, sure that will happen, but they don't forget what they have learned and you might have to get a trainer tune up from time to time, but either way, green or experienced, you will still need some training rides on your horse.

[3rsatsmf]

I did what everyone here says not to... Green, green, green rider buys 3yo Friesian who walks and does some trot only, no canter. I was told (in no uncertain terms) "Green on Green makes Black and Blue". That was 7 years ago. I have the rod in my arm to prove it, but I also have a very charismatic, loveable horse now.

We did not start REALLY riding until he was 8yo but that was not by plan. The H/J trainer who helped me buy him turned out to be a dud and by the time I realized it and stopped lessoning, we were able to do what I wanted (very low bar here) - walk and trot around the arena, canter in one direction, and go out for trail rides. Then all manner of learning stopped which gave us more years to get to know each other and bond with this low-bar riding. I am his entire herd and by all means, the boss mare. And that is what it's all about to me.

Then in 2006, I was introduced to a fabulous dressage trainer and fell in love with dressage and even more with my Friesian. Since we spent the years becoming friends first, expanding our relationship to include working together as a team has only deepened our bond. He is so happy to please me, and I am so proud of him.

With that said, I have a 10 year old Friesian who is only ready for Intro A test (walk trot only) but we will probably never show. He can canter in both directions with the correct leads and does pathetic leg yields and a breath of a shoulder-in. But who cares, we've got time.

No recommendations one way or another, just a story with a happy ending.

[TBrescue]

I agree with slc 100% As a novice dressage rider you don't need a GP horse to learn on, all you need is a horse with the buttons installed for a level or 2 above where you're riding now and the temperment to teach you what you need to know. I have a lovely TB who is trained to 2nd and has been bringing me along. When I ask "correctly" he will do anything for me. If I'm not asking the right way, you never know what he might offer....sometimes I'm surprised by what he will do :lol::lol::lol: but never a bad surprise, only "wow, counter canter, looks like my inside leg was WAY too far back" type surprises

[Arabian Knights]

I too have ridden for years on other people's horses and just finally came to the same conclusion- it was time for my own horse.
It was the best decision I have made (regarding riding) ever!:D My riding has "improved exponentially" according to my trainer. And the key is taking as many lessons as your schedule will allow.
At first I felt like I'll never be able to do this since my horse "didn't know anything". but we have been learning together, which is hard. But I only had so much money to spend, and as an adult amateur we have a lot of other things in our lives to consider.
Take sics advise and save the money for the lessons. But don't cheap out and get a horse that you don't get along with. If you could afford the friesan and afford the training then go for it. But if you have to chose b/t the two your better off with a less flashy horse that you can ride than a nice lawn ornament that is too hot to handle.

[flshgordon]

I'll be the dissenting opinion and say it really matters more what type of rider you are as to what's suited to you.

I've been a H/J (as well as other things) most of my life and just started learning dressage about 2 years ago when I got my 3yo back from the initial "backing" phase. She is a WB, so I knew jumping (our ultimate goal) would be out of the question for a year or two so that really left dressage as the correct way to start her. I barely knew anything about dressage other than a few lessons here and there and I'll tell you right now I think lower level dressage is the most BORING thing I've ever done with a horse in my life. However....here's what made it better for me: Learning with my horse and learning how to teach her. It made it more of a challenge, and more of an accomplishment as we progressed. I have shown her and done well and it is very fulfilling to me to know that I did that ...with the help of lessons of course.

Assuming you feel like you can train a horse up yourself (I'm guessing you're a pretty good rider since you mentioned polo--I used to play and it takes a pretty good rider), I highly recommend it. I like putting all the cues and buttons on my horse and seeing her respond to them.

So my advice would be if you're capable, buy something that is broke but has a great brain that you can finish yourself with the help of a good instructor.

[lexhex]

Thank you again for all your responses!!

My last horse (who was my first purchase) was a 17.3hh Percheron. I bought him because I always fancied the big baroque horses and all I wanted was a good all around horse. I broke him...then got a trainer to get the buttons....we ended up not being a good match and in the meantime I fell in love with Dressage and....well, his canter was like Mr Toad's wild ride and a bulldozer---or maybe all the rocks in Yosemite having a fight (grey horse). :lol:

Anyway, I think my big concern is that I really don't want to get an inappropriate horse...(again). I don't mind going young or older. I guess i just am afraid of that old BUYER's REMORSE.

Dunno if anyone can help me in that!

I am looking at all sorts...but, honestly, I don't think I'd be running to the barn to go ride a horse I wasn't smitten with (and I hate to say it but as I mentioned earlier, I spend a lot of time with other people's horses and its time to get something I really LOVE---and I am sorry but I gotta think its kinda nice on the eyes too)---call me awful!
I hate to go winging on, but I do love to hear your experiences (and I'm sure I'm not the only one benefiting) ;)

Many thanks...

[Arabian Knights]

Thank you again for all your responses!!
Anyway, I think my big concern is that I really don't want to get an inappropriate horse...(again). I don't mind going young or older. I guess i just am afraid of that old BUYER's REMORSE.

Dunno if anyone can help me in that!



Geez, I wish there was help for that ole' buyers remorse, 'cause I'd take some too, every time I have a bad ride :lol:
When your not the right match it does make things hard. But what I try to remind myself is that every horse has his/her own quirks, just like we do. And just like people some are more quirky than others...:winkgrin:
Ya' know if you feel that special bond with that friesian and you can come up with the cash, go for it. I think sometimes it is hard to find that bond. But don't go into debt for it b/c then you have to live with the remorse AND the payments :eek: