draft horse/dressage

[oldschool]

Recently. at my barn, I've seen a girl riding a Shire that is a pinto, everyone says he is a gypsy cob but I asked and he is fully papered. My question is this. Can a shire do upper level? He looks really fancy and is small for his breed. I hear he is for sale and am really intrigued. He moves better than a lot of Freisians at my barn. What would someone offer for such an "off-the-beaten-road kind of horse.? I'm clueless but after seeing the "SuperGuss" video I think going out of the box might be just the thing for me. Any draft dressage people out there?

[NCSue]

I had a Belgian draft that I did dressage on, but to be honest she was not a "dressage" horse. Of course, at the time I was not as educated a rider as I now so who knows what she would have done with a better rider. Getting her to use her hind end and not fall on the forehand was a major ordeal. Besides from that though she was terrific. Each horse is different. I would be concerned with just how much reach this Shire has with his hind feet. I have not seen a full draft at any dressage shows in this area. I would suggest you take a trainer with you to evaluate this horse's movement. You also need to ride to make sure you are comfortable with the amount of concussion involved in riding these big horses. Also evaluate the canter. The collection work will come easier than the extension but most drafties don't have much natural suspension. Will owner allow you to take a video? As for price -- I have seen drafts almost given away and priced up into the $15,000. Shires tend to bring a higher price tag than some other drafties. Tack and saddle fit will also be a considertion.

[oldschool]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll video him. He is only about 16.1 H and moves like a normal horse to my untrauned eye but he is cute as a bug's ear.

[AKB]

My daughter took her Irish Draught through 4th level. Irish Draught's often score well in dressage through PSG, although I have not known any at Grand Prix. Kim Severson has an Irish Draught cross (Tipperary Liadham?sp) who is scoring very well in eventing dressage. Gina Miles scores well with McKinleigh, an Irish Draught Sport horse, who events at advanced.

Lengthenings and canter pirouettes were difficult for our horse, but he did master them. Collection, keeping his head still, and keeping a good rhythm were very easy for him. Some dressage judges did not score him well. Others loved him.

[Bravestrom]

We have draft cross sport horses - three of our clyde/hackneys event and now mine is schooling level 4 movements - I intend on showing him level 1 nationally to start and see how he goes.

He has great lateral movements and we have just started canter half passes and working on our lead changes.

Lengthenings still take a bit of work at the trot because he still tends to go up more than forward but it is coming.

You can see him at www.hotelfun4kids.com/horses.htm - he is doing a leg yield in that picture.

I also have a belgian tb mare that will do training level/maybe level 1 this year as well.

She has great lengthening but still have to work on our collection and lightness.

They tend to be forehand heavy.

[slc2]

I have seen some awesome Clyde-Hackney and Perch-Thb crosses that do nicely up to 3rd, 4th level.

used to show with a lady that showed a full shire to 2nd level.

Once I asked her how he was to ride, since she looked like she was working awful hard to drive his hind quarters up under him and keep him off his forehand, she looked like she lived in half halt hell, LOL.

So I was very curious and listened with interest. I knew she'd had to have a custom saddle and bridle made, since no dressage tack fitted him.

She said, 'Oh FINE, except for the royal pounding my ass gets every step of the trot and canter'.

So you might want to think about that.

According to her neither the back nor the hind quarters are designed to 'carry' that big front end, but to push it. She said she was pretty happy at training and even first level.

[Ambrey]

I just watched a friend's lesson yesterday on her purebred percheron :) I'm convinced they'll make FEI, if only because she's damned well determined to do so :winkgrin: Her mare is lovely. (and if she's reading this, maybe she'll respond- I think she also lives in hh, but more to keep her mare from going on mad gallops around the ring than anything else!).

[Luna]

I wish there were more drafts in dressage...I really need to sell my saddle!

lol..I love my draftie, but I have no real aspirations for her. I just want to ride her as 'correctly" as I can manage. I saw the most lovely Belgian x Arab cross though, who was a PSG horse. I guess there is hope!

[Donella]

I dont want to rain on the parade but the chances of a full draft cutting it past 1st level with good scores is pretty slim. They tend to be weak in the loin (which is a HUGE issue for a sport horse) and heavier on the forhand. They are also not bred to canter and every draft horse I have come across either doesn't know it can canter or has a "run" not a canter. To get them to actually canter with "sit" would probably prove difficult. Conformationally, nothing in a draft horse really looks promising for serious dressage work to me.

Even amoungst friesians (even though they aren't draft horses..they have been highly used for carriage and light ag work and their conformation reflects this) one has to search very hard to find one with the canter. They are also notoriously weak in the loins and the stifles point outwards. Makes "sitting"/collection very hard.

Of course, there are always exceptions!

[frisbee]

Every once in a while a thread about draft crosses lures me out of my lurker status! I have a thbd/Percheron cross that I show PSG and Intermediare at the National shows. He's actually a PMU horse, so I think only one quarter perch. He has great pirouettes and changes and a piaffe and passage to rival any warmblood. Last year was his first year at FEI and his scores were usually mid-sixties. I accept that if a monster-moving warmblood also puts in an accurate test, they will beat us, but I don't let it bother me - I'm more interested in developing my very special horse to be the best he can possibly be. My students also ride a lot of draft crosses - last year at the recognized shows we had a very competitive clyde cross at third, a hackney cross at second, and a couple of young ones at first and training that all did very well.
I'd love to see more draft crosses out there competing at all levels - right now there are two others at FEI that I see at the National shows, and I'd love to see more. The key is in having a good eye for them - of course, not all of them will be competitive past first or so. However, most of the ones that have the appropriate conformation for the sport are limited more by their riders than by their own lack of quality or talent (but I guess we could say that about most horses!)

[sunnycher]

Albeit, I'm not really qualified to talk true 'dressage', I did just take my girl (shire cross) in our first ever real dressage show, we won a 1st and a 3rd. I was just assuming my 'bad ride' was a bit better than other's worse rides, but really didn't take into consideration the score sheet. We got a 68 and a 64, which I'm told isn't too bad. It was training level.

I event her, would rather jump and ride 'outside', but understand the value of dressage work, and now have a coming 4 y.o. PMU - 3/4 TB, 1/4 perch gelding that I want to start correctly. He is amazing, looks alot like a WB, has lovely movement, so I think he could do it for sure.

My mare is as honest and wonderful as they come, but we have to really work to get a clean canter, she would rather shuffle. She is weaker behind, although not a huge horse, 16.1. However, we have had some incredible lessons over the winter, and she is markedly improved! She is 9 this year.

I think it's important to realize each horse is an individual, and also to find a trainer not predjudiced against drafts, that makes a HUGE difference. Good luck. gina

[Bravestrom]

Every once in a while a thread about draft crosses lures me out of my lurker status! I have a thbd/Percheron cross that I show PSG and Intermediare at the National shows. He's actually a PMU horse, so I think only one quarter perch. He has great pirouettes and changes and a piaffe and passage to rival any warmblood. Last year was his first year at FEI and his scores were usually mid-sixties. I accept that if a monster-moving warmblood also puts in an accurate test, they will beat us, but I don't let it bother me - I'm more interested in developing my very special horse to be the best he can possibly be. My students also ride a lot of draft crosses - last year at the recognized shows we had a very competitive clyde cross at third, a hackney cross at second, and a couple of young ones at first and training that all did very well.
I'd love to see more draft crosses out there competing at all levels - right now there are two others at FEI that I see at the National shows, and I'd love to see more. The key is in having a good eye for them - of course, not all of them will be competitive past first or so. However, most of the ones that have the appropriate conformation for the sport are limited more by their riders than by their own lack of quality or talent (but I guess we could say that about most horses!)

I am hoping to show my guy nationally in Ontario this year - my coach thinks he may be able to do psg if I give up eventing. So maybe it is possible. You should join our face book group - draft cross riders of ontario

[Equibrit]

Whenever you ask a draught type to do dressage sort of work, long term, you are risking the health of his hock joints. The exception is the (much lighter) Irish Draught.

[yellowbritches]

My daughter took her Irish Draught through 4th level. Irish Draught's often score well in dressage through PSG, although I have not known any at Grand Prix. Kim Severson has an Irish Draught cross (Tipperary Liadham?sp) who is scoring very well in eventing dressage. Gina Miles scores well with McKinleigh, an Irish Draught Sport horse, who events at advanced.

Lengthenings and canter pirouettes were difficult for our horse, but he did master them. Collection, keeping his head still, and keeping a good rhythm were very easy for him. Some dressage judges did not score him well. Others loved him.
Please note, an Irish Draught is NOT the same type of horse as a Shire, Clyde, Belgian or Perch. They are RIDING horses, not plow/cart horses. They have always been bred to be big and strong enough to work and plow, but also athletic enough to hunt and jump. Drafts, in the traditional sense, were only ever supposed to be work horses, and have been bred for their pulling power, not their pushing power (the key ingredient for a jumping horse or a dressage horse). Irish Draughts are a totally different animal from a draft horse breed. Irish Sport Horses (IDSH is a totally American thing...I've never known an Irishman that refers to their ISH as IDSH) are not the same thing as a draft cross. Irish Draughts and ISH are extremely athletic, often incredibly good movers, and are bred for sport. Draft horses and draft crosses, while often safe, lower level amateur mounts, are not nearly as athletic. There ARE exceptions, but unlike the Irish horses, a draft or draft cross that is successful in the higher levels of any sport is the exception. Irish horses competing at the higher levels are usually the rule.

Sorry...this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I've been extremely lucky enough to have spent a great deal of time with well bred, very athletic and talented Irish horses imported from Ireland. I've also had my fair share of experience with draft crosses (belgian, clyde, perch, etc). While I love every horse for who they are, there is nothing as athletic and gifted as a good Irish horse (except for maybe a good TB!). A draft cross can't even touch them. They are good honest workers, usually, and like I said, there are exceptional ones, but most I've known are average to clunky movers, struggle to truly collect and carry themselves, and are often lacking in any real power (be it scope for jumping, or power to truly push from behind).

[Lambie Boat]

I trained my English Shire/TB cross up to pirouette and tempi work and showed up to 3rd level at top rated shows, highest score 65%. She was the love of my life. Not suitable for dressage, really, as she naturally wanted to pull her body across the ground with her front legs. But she tried hard and was willing and eager to please. We never really nailed extensions, but her lateral and canter work was good. Her trot was a spinal cracker for me but better riders could sit her bounce better.

Looking back, I wasn't doing her any favors trying to make her into a dressage horse

[Cielo Azure]

Not to rain on anyone's parade who dislike Percherons for dressage but at least one Percheron has succeeded at Prix St. George and has won many Ch, all over the USA. See: http://www.forresthillfarm.com/page2.html for full details of Cotton Wood Flame and SOME of the other Percherons and Perch crossbreds that Forrest Hills are competing with currently. I personaly know of some others too that are competing at level 2/3.

Up until the early 1900s, there were two types of distinct Percherons. A lighter, riding and light cart horse and a heavier horse (these horses became much heavier in the earlier part of the twentieth century). The lighter Percherons have always been used for cavalry riding and were bred for such. Tens of thousands were imported into the US for the cavalry during the late 1800s for riding. The show animals have always contained a lot of the old lighter lines, which are still much lighter Percherons than their plow horse cousins. As the Canadians also contain those lighter lines (which come from more ancient Percheron lines, according to the 1917 Sanders book -see below). If you go back and read the 1880s book of MC Weld, he lamments about the perceived future extinction of the lighter variety of Percheron as the demand for heavy horses was so great. But those bloodlines didn't go extinct, they were infused into a power carriage horse have never really been used for the plow.

It is these lighter (we now call them "modern") Percherons that tend to do much better in dressage.

Percherons were infused with "barb" blood, as written from books of the 1800s, during many periods of their development (although it has been a closed registry for more than 100 years now). If you go read Sylvia Loch's books, you will know what the word barb historically meant and the importance that word has in dressage history.

It is true that it is more difficult to get a good extended trot, just as it is with the Freisians but (just like with the Fresians) it is not impossible. It requires a lot of conditioning to clean up the gaits. We ride Percherons because we love the breed, the power, the presence, the stability and the brain.

We do know that a warmblood is going to be easier to move through the levels. In fact, we are horse shopping right now for a warmblood for my 15 year old son to ride that will allow him to try to enter the young riders program. Our search, so far has not met with success as he needs a good quality horse, that is the correct type (read: not an off-breed) that is schooling at second level and that horse appears to be out of our price range. Sigh. it is an expensive sport, isn't it! I am not sure that we will be able to afford a horse that would allow him to enter and move through the young riders program before he is too old!

Funny thing is that we have been "test driving" a number of warmbloods and the biggest complaint is that in the big movers, all that suspension makes their trots really hard to sit! Our Percherons are much nicer to ride, in terms of comfort at the trot.

Our own Percheron horses are not heavily built plow horses, they come from those old lines, which the show horse lines are built on, they are show animals and they are historically correct for the breed! They are leggy, they have less bone, and don't have a huge barrel for a belly that a lot of people associate with drafts. We have had not one issue with joints. We chose the Percherons that we ride with care, we are looking for certain bloodlines and a certain type.

We have had no joint issues in our horses being ridden and in training. I have a lot of friends who use Percherons for dressage, and joint issues in these mature animals? I don't remember hearing of any that are caused by upper level dressage work. I don't know how many of you used to below to the Draft Sport horse forum before it shut down (300+ people), but joint issues just didn't come up as a topic that I ever remember in mature animals.

After WWII (when there were large food shortages), the French Gov. changed their breed standard to include Percherons as meat and work animals. You can imagine how that impacted the French horses. When you see photos of French horses, think about what their breed standard was looking for. Those are not the refined Percherons from Percheron that once were! Now, they are importing American show stallions to try to refine the breed in France. There are now two standards in France that are shown. A lighter, coach horse (which they are trying to recreate) and a work horse, which still includes the standards as a meat animal.

If anyone has any interest in old books and Percheron history, I have a number of books that I can recommend.

Weld, M. C. And Du Hays, Charles
Title is The Percheron Horse in America/ in France
written in 1886

and

The 1917 Sanders book (The history of the percheron horse) is an amazing resource also. It is about 300 pages and full of photos.

http://www.cieloazure.com/earlyrecords.html
http://www.cieloazure.com/1880.html

[mrs.smith]

Although the more modern types can do it, my little drafty haflinger was not cut out for dressage. Try as I might, her high stepping trot was so rough it killed my back, and it was so terribly hard for her to canter. It wasn't fair to her or me to try to make her something she was not, so we turned to trail riding. I really think her hocks would have suffered had I pushed the issue. So, I'm looking for a new horse to further my dressage education.

There's always someone in the barn who wants to show everyone and make it to grand prix with their twh/hackney/paso fino cross. But, you have to wonder if it's really fair to the horse to perform at a task that they really weren't bred to do.

[yellowbritches]

There's always someone in the barn who wants to show everyone and make it to grand prix with their twh/hackney/paso fino cross. But, you have to wonder if it's really fair to the horse to perform at a task that they really weren't bred to do.
Agreed. While every horse can benefit from good, solid basic dressage and can and should be able to perform 2nd level movements, at some point, a horse is just not cut out for the amount of power and strength needed to continue on. There are always exceptions, and some horses can "perform" the movements, but maybe without the real class and power of a real GP horse (that Fjord comes to mind. He can do the movements, but he is lacking in real power and suspension).

[Dune]

I think that with most breeds there are bound to be a few that are truly specialists and will work quite well for dressage. There is a Shire/TBX in my neck of the woods that competes at PSG and does quite well. He doesn't look super easy to ride, but not horrible either. I would have a sit on the horse to see if he's comfortable, that may indeed be an issue. Also, not all, but a few of the draft crosses I've seen have actually been a bit hot and not so bright. :uhoh: When you combine that with a BIG, powerful youngster it's not so fun. My only other suggestion is to be very careful if the horse is not fully mature. I've seen some FABULOUS 3 year olds that grew up to be clunkers at 6/7. I've yet to see one that I'd want to ride and bring along but hey I'm not ruling it out either......:winkgrin:

[BaroquePony]

Quoted from frisbee:
"Every once in a while a thread about draft crosses lures me out of my lurker status! I have a thbd/Percheron cross that I show PSG and Intermediare at the National shows. He's actually a PMU horse, so I think only one quarter perch. He has great pirouettes and changes and a piaffe and passage to rival any warmblood. Last year was his first year at FEI and his scores were usually mid-sixties. I accept that if a monster-moving warmblood also puts in an accurate test, they will beat us, but I don't let it bother me - I'm more interested in developing my very special horse to be the best he can possibly be. My students also ride a lot of draft crosses - last year at the recognized shows we had a very competitive clyde cross at third, a hackney cross at second, and a couple of young ones at first and training that all did very well. "

Percheron/TB crosses ARE warmbloods. TB (hotblood) + Percheron (coldblood) = A WARMBLOOD

Depending on the horse, Percheron/TB crosses as well as Clydesdale/TB crosses make fabulous open jumpers and I've schooled (for clients) Percheron/TB crosses that did exceptionally well in dressage.

[canyonoak]

<<I've seen a girl riding a Shire that is a pinto, everyone says he is a gypsy cob but I asked and he is fully papered.>>

A fully papered Shire??? I have always thought the only allowed colors are black, bay, brown,gray, with roan permissible but not preferred.

Just wondering...

[canticle]

Whenever you ask a draught type to do dressage sort of work, long term, you are risking the health of his hock joints. The exception is the (much lighter) Irish Draught.
Dressage work is tough on the hocks of any horse. Most upper level horses receive regular hock injections.

[canticle]

There's always someone in the barn who wants to show everyone and make it to grand prix with their twh/hackney/paso fino cross. But, you have to wonder if it's really fair to the horse to perform at a task that they really weren't bred to do.
Is GP "fair" to any horse? I'm sure they would all rather be out grazing in the field! Oh well, good luck finding a more compatible partner!

[Donella]

Dressage work is tough on the hocks of any horse. Most upper level horses receive regular hock injections.

It is ESPECIALLY hard on a horse that is not conformed for collected work.

ps..getting an extention out of a friesian is not comparable to a draft horse at all. It isn't difficult..this is their forte..they have huge strides. It's the collected work that can be problematic. They are still much lighter in build and much more suited to riding than a cold blooded draft. And there are still some issues.

This may sound breedist or whatever, I call it living in reality. Breeds that were bred for this sort of work are most often the ones found at the top. This isnt some conspiracy as most of us on this board like to beleive. Form = Function...I am true beleiver in it because the proof is in the pudding. There are always exceptions...we are talking generalities.

Of course..it all depends on how competative you want to be because any horse can do well with the correct training up to first level.

[canticle]

I think there is a misconception that draft horses cannot be ridden and shouldn't go faster than a walk. I'm not sure where this fear of drafts started from, but it's a shame since they are a lot of fun.

Anyway, only a few breeds (Iberian breeds in particular) are naturally conformed for collected work. Basically ANY horse who is not of Baroque build is going to have a tougher time with the upper echelons of dressage. Yet most of the modern horses who succeed do so in spite of their build. At what point do we step in and say that it's not worth the physical toll that their bodies are taking?

[Donella]

I disagree with that. Most modern euro wb breeds are conformed so that they can withstand the rigours of upper level work, which in the cases of show jumping and dressage, requires a serious amount of sustained collection or "sit'. The show jumper needs to rock back and put his weight on his hind legs in much the same way a dressage horse needs to do so to perform a canter pirrouette. If any breed could do this we would see tonnes of mongrels winning the world cup showjumping classes. That is why so many of todays top dressage are "jumper bred" warmbloods...similiar conformation is required. When I look at my Hanoverians hind end build vs the friesians there is a significant difference. The femur is alot longer in wb's than it is in draft horses and friesians. Short femurs (and again, drafts are notorious for this) mean legs that are "out behind" and this puts alot of strain on the hock joint and it also makes it hard for the horse to step under himself (let alone carry!). If you look at top jumpers or dressage horses, the triangle in the hind end from hip joint to point of buttock to stifle is equal.

People can argue all they want but it is a fact that most of the euro wb breeds have been bred for sport for many decades VERY selectively ( I am mostly familiar with the Hanoverian breed). It is a breeding program focused on creating an animal that has that "sit" . If wb's didnt have the conformation to rock back and put serious weight on their hindquaters, they would not be the best jumpers in the world. And while they may not piaffe or passage in general the same as a baroque horse...(tho I have seen some who are far superior) they are still conformed for it and far better suited to withstanding the rigours of it than other breeds.

[WhatzUp]

Every once in a while a thread about draft crosses lures me out of my lurker status! I have a thbd/Percheron cross that I show PSG and Intermediare at the National shows. He's actually a PMU horse, so I think only one quarter perch. He has great pirouettes and changes and a piaffe and passage to rival any warmblood. Last year was his first year at FEI and his scores were usually mid-sixties. I accept that if a monster-moving warmblood also puts in an accurate test, they will beat us, but I don't let it bother me - I'm more interested in developing my very special horse to be the best he can possibly be. My students also ride a lot of draft crosses - last year at the recognized shows we had a very competitive clyde cross at third, a hackney cross at second, and a couple of young ones at first and training that all did very well.
I'd love to see more draft crosses out there competing at all levels - right now there are two others at FEI that I see at the National shows, and I'd love to see more. The key is in having a good eye for them - of course, not all of them will be competitive past first or so. However, most of the ones that have the appropriate conformation for the sport are limited more by their riders than by their own lack of quality or talent (but I guess we could say that about most horses!)

Hi,

What is your horse's show name ?
I wonder if I have seen him ...

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[WhatzUp]

Depending on the horse, Percheron/TB crosses as well as Clydesdale/TB crosses make fabulous open jumpers and I've schooled (for clients) Percheron/TB crosses that did exceptionally well in dressage.

Hi,

I have never seen a Percheron/TB cross or a Clydesdale/TB
in the Open Jumpers, which I consider 1.4m or higher.

Can you tell me which horses these are/were ?

I have seen a few in the 1.2m that were competitive at B
and A rated jumper shows but no higher. By competitive I
mean in the top 10 ...

Thanks.

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[yellowbritches]

Percheron/TB crosses ARE warmbloods. TB (hotblood) + Percheron (coldblood) = A WARMBLOOD

Depending on the horse, Percheron/TB crosses as well as Clydesdale/TB crosses make fabulous open jumpers and I've schooled (for clients) Percheron/TB crosses that did exceptionally well in dressage.

In the very simplest sense of the word, yes, they are warmbloods. But they do not come with the years and years of pedigree and purposeful breeding that "real" warmbloods come with. It has only been in the last little bit of time that people have been going out of their way to breed TBs to drafts and calling them sport horses. I still hold to the notion, though, that the ones that do well in the UPPER levels are exceptions to the rule. Coming from my sport, eventing, I can only think of one horse who has successfully competed regularly, with success, above prelim/one star (Bungee, who was ridden by Stephanie Butts in YRs, and who did a couple of 3 stars).

I have no doubt that there are draft crosses out their that have moved up the levels, in various sports, and done well for their owners and riders. Just as I know other non-traditional horses have done, as well.

[frisbee]

I don't think anyone is saying that draft crosses are MORE suitable or even AS for the upper levels of dressage or jumping than warmbloods that were bred for those disciplines (at least I am not). In general, a good (and 'good' is the key word here!) warmblood will be more competitive and will find the work physically easier. I think there is no doubt that a full draft (or sometimes even half draft) will have a very,very hard time moving up the levels past about first.
However, the most important thing here is that each horse must be evaluated on their individual merits. Having spent a number of years riding all sorts of lovely warmbloods for a high-end sales barn, I saw first hand that quality and breeding are no guarantees of success. I am the first to acknowledge that a draft cross that successfully shows FEI is the exception rather than the norm - however, there are some out there! I know my horse enjoys his work, and has NEVER taken a lame step except last winter when he stepped on a piece of ice. In fact, I had x-rays taken of his hocks and front feet as a baseline, and my vet told me he has unusually clean x-rays for a horse in his level of work.
Again, the key here is to maintain an open mind and recognize that duds and superstars exist within every gene pool!

[VTHokie]

First off, how tall and how old is this horse?
I don't think it's fair to generalize. Try to get a video of the individual horse and post it for opinions.
My 3/4 Belgian mare has a wonderful canter and can easily step into it from a walk at 3 years old. The other day she not only stepped into it but had the most amazing (comfortable!!:yes:) slow and collected canter I've ever ridden. I didn't ask her to maintain it for long since she's so young and still not really in peak condition. But I had goosebumps. I'm new to dressage and we will probably start at Training level this summer. I have no idea how high up we'll move.

[BaroquePony]

WhatzUp,

The Clydesdale/TB crosses and the Percheron/TB crosses that came to mind were back in the sixties in Michigan and they were being used in open jumping. They negotiated some five and six foot and higher courses easily without soundness issues. I did not follow their careers closley and I don't remember their names, but several of them were well excepted as top money-making showjumpers and people were breeding more and more of them. There were a number that were being bred back to thoroughbreds. Very nice horses.

I have seen them used in top showjumping barns as high quality school horses. I do mean high quality. Practicing over six feet consistently and reliably.

I saw similar breeding in Austin TX when some people moved out from Maryland and brought their Percheron/TB horses with them. I love the Perceron/TB crosses. We called them Thorcherons. I thought that was a fairly common name for them. Those particular horses had been bred for jumping, but the owner decided to begin taking dressage seriously and there was no big problem with the switch. They were athletic.

I agree that showjumpers and high level dressage horses need to have pretty much the same conformation.

A lot of the modern WB rage has taken the spotlight recently, but a very large number of those WBs have genetic problems bred into certain lines. They do not stay sound. Those are specific lines.

Good bone structure comes in a number of breeds and grade horses.

Many horses that are bred for specific disciplines are not all that great.

[Roan]

. . .And while they may not piaffe or passage in general the same as a baroque horse...(tho I have seen some who are far superior) they are still conformed for it and far better suited to withstanding the rigours of it than other breeds.

I'd like to know which warmbloods you've seen that can piaffe or passage better than a classically trained Lipizzaner or Spanish type? I'm talking SIT, not that competitive "hollow backed" passage/piaffe that you see in the Anky-type horses.

Not trying to start a war, but really tired of the "warmblood" fad and the push for toe-flicking and impure gaits.

Eileen

[merrygoround]

I would research the gypsy cob. What is their background? I do believe they are considered a breed, and are flahy, heavy maned pintos . What were they bred for other than being the queen's drum horse?

[Ambrey]

In the very simplest sense of the word, yes, they are warmbloods. But they do not come with the years and years of pedigree and purposeful breeding that "real" warmbloods come with. It has only been in the last little bit of time that people have been going out of their way to breed TBs to drafts and calling them sport horses. I still hold to the notion, though, that the ones that do well in the UPPER levels are exceptions to the rule. Coming from my sport, eventing, I can only think of one horse who has successfully competed regularly, with success, above prelim/one star (Bungee, who was ridden by Stephanie Butts in YRs, and who did a couple of 3 stars).

European warmbloods that do well in upper levels are exceptions to the rule, too. Ever noticed the price differential a horse gets when you put "FEI prospect" on the ad and mean it?

If you're looking for a $10k horse (and face it, how many of us are looking for something above that? very few!) your chances of getting to FEI aren't much better on a Hano than a Perch x. I call that "living in reality" as well. Most of us are trying to do the best we can on a limited budget, and we can get more "bang for our buck" with a draft x.

Now, if you have $50k to spend on a horse, don't spend it on a draft cross unless it's already doing FEI :)

[Ambrey]

I would research the gypsy cob. What is their background? I do believe they are considered a breed, and are flahy, heavy maned pintos . What were they bred for other than being the queen's drum horse?

She said the horse LOOKS like a gypsy, but is in fact a Shire.

[NoDQhere]

Percheron/TB crosses ARE warmbloods. TB (hotblood) + Percheron (coldblood) = A WARMBLOOD

Ahem, no they are not. You might want to do a little reading up on the subject. There is an article on our web site as well as a good article on Sonesta's web site that explains what a Warmblood is.

[canticle]

I disagree with that. Most modern euro wb breeds are conformed so that they can withstand the rigours of upper level work, which in the cases of show jumping and dressage, requires a serious amount of sustained collection or "sit'. The show jumper needs to rock back and put his weight on his hind legs in much the same way a dressage horse needs to do so to perform a canter pirrouette. If any breed could do this we would see tonnes of mongrels winning the world cup showjumping classes. That is why so many of todays top dressage are "jumper bred" warmbloods...similiar conformation is required. When I look at my Hanoverians hind end build vs the friesians there is a significant difference. The femur is alot longer in wb's than it is in draft horses and friesians. Short femurs (and again, drafts are notorious for this) mean legs that are "out behind" and this puts alot of strain on the hock joint and it also makes it hard for the horse to step under himself (let alone carry!). If you look at top jumpers or dressage horses, the triangle in the hind end from hip joint to point of buttock to stifle is equal.

People can argue all they want but it is a fact that most of the euro wb breeds have been bred for sport for many decades VERY selectively ( I am mostly familiar with the Hanoverian breed). It is a breeding program focused on creating an animal that has that "sit" . If wb's didnt have the conformation to rock back and put serious weight on their hindquaters, they would not be the best jumpers in the world. And while they may not piaffe or passage in general the same as a baroque horse...(tho I have seen some who are far superior) they are still conformed for it and far better suited to withstanding the rigours of it than other breeds.
Modern euro WBs are a very recent type of horse. They really shine in the jumper ring, but I firmly believe that upper level dressage does not come as easily to them. They just do not have the classic Baroque build. Instead what you see are horses that look great doing the job, but they have numerous conformation issues (particularly in the hind end) that compromise long-term soundness. The whole trend of breeding for "uphill" horses is an example. Horses should be level, plain and simple. Whenever you deviate from this, there will be consequences down the road. WBs are able to push through it with the help of corrective shoeing, injections, and not to mention their heart. Then you come to the P&P where they break down and simply cannot perform it remotely correctly. If we are going to talk about structural suitability for dressage, then this is a definite issue.

[yellowbritches]

European warmbloods that do well in upper levels are exceptions to the rule, too. Ever noticed the price differential a horse gets when you put "FEI prospect" on the ad and mean it?

If you're looking for a $10k horse (and face it, how many of us are looking for something above that? very few!) your chances of getting to FEI aren't much better on a Hano than a Perch x. I call that "living in reality" as well. Most of us are trying to do the best we can on a limited budget, and we can get more "bang for our buck" with a draft x.

Now, if you have $50k to spend on a horse, don't spend it on a draft cross unless it's already doing FEI :)
You make a very good point! :yes: Kind of goes along with what I said about a draft cross usually being a good, safe, sane, amateur horse. And most amateurs are probably going to be able to sit the trot on a decent draft cross better than even an average WB, which is a big plus for them.

I may have missed it, but is to OP looking at the Shire in question as just a good mount to ride and do things with, or is the OP considering it as a GP prospect?

[Ambrey]

Ahem, no they are not. You might want to do a little reading up on the subject. There is an article on our web site as well as a good article on Sonesta's web site that explains what a Warmblood is.

Last time I read this argument, I researched it- and it turns out there's not a whole heck of a lot of agreement on what the word "warmblood" means. I know one person has made the claim that only horses descended from one particular strain of wild horse can be called warmbloods, but when I researched more it turned out that the percherons and most light horses in Europe had the same origins as the european warmbloods. And the european warmbloods were bred from light and heavy horses in Europe.

I think, using the definitions I've seen, the modern Percheron is more of a Warmblood than a Cold blood.

But it's a word, and one whose origins are not well known enough to say for sure that it means "this" rather than "that." Saying a perch x is a warmblood isn't saying that it is the same as a Hanovarian any more than saying a thoroughbred is a hot blood means it is the same as an Arabian.

[NoDQhere]

European warmbloods that do well in upper levels are exceptions to the rule, too. Ever noticed the price differential a horse gets when you put "FEI prospect" on the ad and mean it?

If you're looking for a $10k horse (and face it, how many of us are looking for something above that? very few!) your chances of getting to FEI aren't much better on a Hano than a Perch x. I call that "living in reality" as well. Most of us are trying to do the best we can on a limited budget, and we can get more "bang for our buck" with a draft x.

Now, if you have $50k to spend on a horse, don't spend it on a draft cross unless it's already doing FEI :)

This is nonsense. The Warmbloods dominate at the upper levels. There are "lots" of them up there.

If you've got $10,000 to spend, there are many, many Warmblood prospects out there with a pretty good shot at getting to FEI. It doesn't take $50,000 :eek: So many people buy an inappropiate horse because they think they can't afford anything "better".

I'm not trying to start a war either but the proof is in the pudding. Donella's post really say's it well. Dressage is hard enough as it is. A horse with the correct conformation (shape) finds the work much less stressful and difficult. You are going to get much more "bang for your buck" by selecting a horse bred (and shaped) for the job.

[Ambrey]

This is nonsense. The Warmbloods dominate at the upper levels. There are "lots" of them up there.

The fact that most upper level horses are warmbloods does NOT mean that most warmbloods hit upper levels. If you are looking for a well-started horse in my area, an FEI prospect that is registered with a European WB registry is going to cost you a heck of a lot more than $10k.

$10K will buy you a baby, an unproven broodmare, or an older horse.

[NoDQhere]

The fact that most upper level horses are warmbloods does NOT mean that most warmbloods hit upper levels.

Well, few riders make it to the upper levels, but you'll still have a better chance on a Warmblood.

If you are looking for a well-started horse in my area, an FEI prospect that is registered with a European WB registry is going to cost you a heck of a lot more than $10k. $10K will buy you a baby, an unproven broodmare, or an older horse.

Good thing people are able to shop around, then!

[Donella]

I never meant to imply that just because it is a wb that it will be an FEI horse. Of course not. But we have to talk in terms of generalities here. IN GENERAL, euro wb's have been bred for a long enough time for upper level dressage and jumping to create a fairly uniform type of horse that is conformed in a way to be highly suited to this job.

Other breeds of horses (outside of the baroque breeds) were not selected for and bred for this purpose and this purpose alone. It makes perfect sense to me..if your selection criteria is 1) the conformation needed to "sit" 2) large expressive gaits 3) ability to do both and this selection goes on for decades, you are going to end up with an animal much more suited to these three things than any other breed that was bred with an entirely different purpose in mind. If a breed registry is selective enough, major change can come about in three or so decades.

I also dont think it is the conformation of the wb that causes soundness issues but rather the ginormous size of these animals and the weight that is placed on the hind leg apparatus during colllection. This is what I have heard from numerous vets as well. A horse can be ideally conformed but when you have 1500lbs (vs 900 or so for a lippizan ect) bearing down on the joints, there are only going to be a limited number of piaffes in that horse.

You know..people here get all excited about wb's. I don't really know why. Every other sport has one breed or two breeds that excell at the job and usually dominate the upper levels. In every case, these breeds have been SELECTED and BRED for this purpose. Arabians dominate endurance because that is what they have been selected for. Quarterhorses dominate cutting...cuz that is what they have been selected and conformed to do. Thoroughbreds run faster than other breeds...why? Because they have been bred with the conformation in mind to do so. Why would it be any different for showjumping or dressage? And it isn't, some people just have a hard time accepting it for some odd reason.

So all I am saying here is that the draft horse was bred and selected for a completely different purpose. To throw massive weight onto the forhand, to lean into and PULL weight that is behind it. The conformation affirms this. Massive forehands, shorter front legs to be closer to the ground and "dig in" creating a downhill build. Hind legs out behind because "stepping under or carrying" is not required to pull heavy weight. And this is why they excell at heavy agricultural work over any other type of horse.

But if you then change the purpose entirely...ie you want them to elevate the forhand..ie carry vs push...and you want them uphill...gosh, that is going to be tough. You are starting with the wrong conformation for the job of dressage. BUT..again, there are always exceptions and of course, up to first level ..no problems. After that, if the work is pushed, the horse will likely break down or will not be able to perform up to par because of the result of trying to work against that conformation as well as putting that serious weight on hocks and stifles that were not built to carry at all.

[not again]

Ultimately the ability of a horse to advance through the levels is rooted in its trainability and propensity to learn increasingly complex and quick commands. Conformation and genetic programming all play a role, but no one knows which horse will make it to Prix St. Georges or Grand Prix until it gets there.

[Ambrey]

I think the reason people want to work with breeds other than WBs is that some people like breeds other than WBs. For many of us, dressage is about the journey rather than the destination, and owning a horse is about more than that horse's skill at a particular discipline.

Also, buying a european WB is cost prohibitive, no matter what others may say. Adding in travel costs and shipping to get one from Kansas doesn't help the pocketbook.

It is true that it takes an exceptional draft or draftx to make upper levels, but that horse might still cost quite a bit less than a european WB capable of upper levels. And, some of us just like them. So why begrudge us that?

All those decades of careful breeding, and the rarety of said careful breeding, comes at a cost.

[Donella]

I totally agree, and I can see wanting to do dressage with another breed. I breed hanos and friesians. What do I ride right now? I ride my moms friesian. I adore her and while she is much more suited to it than most...she definately has some conformational shortcomings and may not ever make it past second even though she has three great "8" gaits, the collection will be hard. When my mom learns to ride her, I know that it wont matter to her if the horse never gets past second level because she loves THAT horse and THAT breed. For me, I am fairly competative so I pretty much know that I will be riding one of the wb's when that horse comes along that shows that kind of talent.

It all depends how competative a person wants to be. If being competative isnt a big deal and all you want to do is try your hand at lower levels, then there really is no reason to go and buy a breed you aren't crazy about just because it shows promise for upper levels.

Anyways, I am well aware as to why some people don't want to buy them. But people here were argueing that wb's are not really more suited or bred for it which is completely untrue. The OP asked if drafts are suited to it and in general they are not for the above mentioned reasons...but when someone asks this I always assume they mean COMPETATIVE dressage. Every horse can do lower level dressage and usually with very decent scores if the training is right!

[WhatzUp]

WhatzUp,

The Clydesdale/TB crosses and the Percheron/TB crosses that came to mind were back in the sixties in Michigan and they were being used in open jumping. They negotiated some five and six foot and higher courses easily without soundness issues. I did not follow their careers closley and I don't remember their names, but several of them were well excepted as top money-making showjumpers and people were breeding more and more of them. There were a number that were being bred back to thoroughbreds. Very nice horses.

I have seen them used in top showjumping barns as high quality school horses. I do mean high quality. Practicing over six feet consistently and reliably.

I saw similar breeding in Austin TX when some people moved out from Maryland and brought their Percheron/TB horses with them. I love the Perceron/TB crosses. We called them Thorcherons. I thought that was a fairly common name for them. Those particular horses had been bred for jumping, but the owner decided to begin taking dressage seriously and there was no big problem with the switch. They were athletic.

I agree that showjumpers and high level dressage horses need to have pretty much the same conformation.

A lot of the modern WB rage has taken the spotlight recently, but a very large number of those WBs have genetic problems bred into certain lines. They do not stay sound. Those are specific lines.

Good bone structure comes in a number of breeds and grade horses.

Many horses that are bred for specific disciplines are not all that great.

Hi,

I am not saying, like I wrote before, that Tb/draft crosses
can not jump, but I have never seen them competitive at higher
than 1.2m - at Spruce Meadows, Thunderbird, Twin Oaks or HITS.
This is in the past 8-10 years and to date.

You wrote -

" I have seen them used in top showjumping barns as high quality
school horses. I do mean high quality. Practicing over six feet
consistently and reliably. "

Which high quality show jumping barns ? Who is riding them ?
... and 6 feet ?

The expectations on a competitive upper level show jumping or
dressage (or upper level any discipline) horse can not be directly
compared to what happened in the 1960's, it is apples to oranges.

Again, the proof is in the pudding ... or the show ring as the
case may be ...

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[WhatzUp]

... It is true that it takes an exceptional draft or draftx to make upper levels, but that horse might still cost quite a bit less than a european WB capable of upper levels. And, some of us just like them. So why begrudge us that? ...

Hi,

I still believe it takes an exceptional horse to make it to the
upper levels of any discipline and remain there, sound, until
retirement ... registry or breed aside.

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[Bravestrom]

here we go again - I can't tell you how many times the wb gets tossed into an argument about riding a draft in dressage.

Did the op ask about warmbloods, no - she asked about a draft - it kind of drives me crazy when ever someone asks about a draft doing sports that the some warmblood people always get all defensive and think that their horses are the only ones that can do it or that somehow the draft crosses are going to interfere.

She didn't ask for grand prix, she didn't ask for a lesson on warmbloods - she asked about a draft.

We breed, train and show draft crosses as sport horses because we like them, we like their attitude, size, and what we can do with them. We event, show dressage and also do jumper. They are great horses and a pleasure to work with compared to some of the "WARMBLOODS" we have had or seen. But no - I am not lumping them all in one category either as there are some very lovely warmbloods too.

Now they have got me doing it too - yes you can do dressage with a draft or draft cross - I do and my guy is schooling level 4 - he also events, does jumper shows and fox hunts. But it looks like he is going to concentrate on dressage because that is where his strengths seem to lay and he absolutely loves it.

And don't tell they can't fetch a decent price - you would be shocked at what I have turned down for my gelding.

And he is definitely strong enough to sit on his hocks and have a very light canter - it just takes time to show them how. And he has a canter to die for now.

[Equibrit]

If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels in dressage.

[FancyFree]

If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels in dressage.

Don't be a parade rain cloud Equibrit! ;)

FEI is possible for everyoneeeeee!

[canticle]

If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels in dressage.
This myth is getting way out of control. Draft horses are HORSES. They can be ridden. They can go faster than a walk. They are not a separate species.

Do you honestly believe that anyone who dares to put a saddle on their drafts is risking their horse's health? That is ridiculous.

This BB only gives us a sliver of what horses are really about. It is uber-English in orientation, most people are riders, and I think they have a foot in the competitive scene. You are entitled to your preferences, but please stop perpetuating bullcrap about certain breeds of horses not being able to be ridden. I don't know where you are getting this stuff, but it's not how thing works in the real world. In the real world, different types of horses do just FINE in a variety of situations!

If we want to talk about horses breaking down, the dressage community needs to clean its own house first before it can even begin to consider what other horses should be allowed to be ridden.

[FancyFree]

Do you honestly believe that anyone who dares to put a saddle on their drafts is risking their horse's health? That is ridiculous.

Who is saying that? I didn't see that at all. Some have said that conformationally it is difficult for the draft types to do upper level work. This is a general statement. There are exceptions to everything. But from a conformation standpoint, they usually aren't built for it and it is very difficult. It's like asking a Sumo wrestler to dance Swan Lake. I'm sure it would be possible, but extremely difficult.

[Donella]

There is a world of difference between putting a saddle on a horse and reaching FEI. A WORLD of difference. Nobody here has said that you cant do lower levels safely with them. But it is likely they will break down when you ask them to do something they are so far from being designed to do.

I used to belong to the crowd that beleived that all horses were capable of FEI if you just try hard enough. Then I looked around, learned more and got a dose of reality. For a horse to reach FEI levels in dressage with good scores (which means he is capable of it) he has to have the conformation (which is not seen in draft horses), the mind and the training to get there. All three are equally important but ALL must be there.

Some people just have to learn the hard way and it's unfortunate for the horse. If FEI is your goal I would start with a horse that has the conformation that will give him at least the basis to do what you will ask him to do.

[FancyFree]

There is a world of difference between putting a saddle on a horse and reaching FEI. A WORLD of difference. Nobody here has said that you cant do lower levels safely with them. But it is likely they will break down when you ask them to do something they are so far from being designed to do.

I used to belong to the crowd that beleived that all horses were capable of FEI if you just try hard enough. Then I looked around, learned more and got a dose of reality. For a horse to reach FEI levels in dressage with good scores (which means he is capable of it) he has to have the conformation (which is not seen in draft horses), the mind and the training to get there. All three are equally important but ALL must be there.

Some people just have to learn the hard way and it's unfortunate for the horse. If FEI is your goal I would start with a horse that has the conformation that will give him at least the basis to do what you will ask him to do.

Exactly. Well said.

[Thomas_1]

Recently. at my barn, I've seen a girl riding a Shire that is a pinto, everyone says he is a gypsy cob but I asked and he is fully papered. Shires don't come pinto. The breed standard is very specific in saying "no large splashes of white"
My question is this. Can a shire do upper level? I doubt it but this might be a first.

He looks really fancy and is small for his breed. I hear he is for sale and am really intrigued. He moves better than a lot of Freisians at my barn. Are you sure its not a DWB or a nice coloured cob?

It's like asking a Sumo wrestler to dance Swan Lake. I'm sure it would be possible, but extremely difficult. :lol: I'll remember that most descriptive and amusing comment and am likely to quote you in future if you don't mind.

[Roan]

Who is saying that? I didn't see that at all. . . .Read Equibrit's statement again:

"If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels in dressage."

In other words:

If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down [by riding it is implied] than reach FEI levels in dressage.

Roan

[FancyFree]

Read Equibrit's statement again:

"If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels in dressage."

In other words:

If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down [by riding it is implied] than reach FEI levels in dressage.

Roan

I took it that you are much more likely to break down the horse in the process of trying to reach FEI. I think Equibrit was saying that the work that it would take to reach that level would break the horse down before you even got there. Not that everyday riding would.

I could be wrong. What say you Equibrit?

[Roan]

I took it that you are much more likely to break down the horse in the process of trying to reach FEI. I think Equibrit was saying that the work that it would take to reach that level would break the horse down before you even got there. Not that everyday riding would.

I could be wrong. What say you Equibrit?

That's how I took it at first as well, until canticle read it as it was actually written. I had to go back and reread her statement.

Eileen

[Thomas_1]

Percheron/TB crosses ARE warmbloods. TB (hotblood) + Percheron (coldblood) = A WARMBLOOD
Wrong!

Its horses not tapwater you're talking about.

Cold blood comes from the German Kaltblutigkeit which though literally translated to English as cold blood actually means calmness and stolidness.

Because of their overall size and large muscles, work horses tend to be sluggish and slow to react.

Coldbloods are the work horses. The horses which provided heavy transport and power in agriculture and industry.

Irish Drafts, Hackneys and some others mentioned are not cold bloods. Never have been and never will be.

Rather they're light harness horses and coach horses.

Quite different from Shires. As in totally and utterly.

[canticle]

That's how I took it at first as well, until canticle read it as it was actually written. I had to go back and reread her statement.
Yes, I did read it as it was written. I reread it, and I can see how it could have been meant either way. :)

I wonder just how many people have the "FEI or bust" mentality. I think this mindset is unfair to ANY breed or type of horse. But this type of person wouldn't choose a draft horse in the first place, would she? Additionally, I suspect only a tiny fraction of dressage riders buy a horse for the purpose of wringing every last bit of talent and capability out of their mounts before ditching it and moving on. Yes, there are some high-profile people who might fall into this category, but where are the scores of non-traditional breeds who are being mistreated merely by being subjected to dressage? If anything, I think the more popular dressage breeds are more likely to be broken down. First of all, the sad fact is that overbreeding and misbreeding occurs whenever something becomes too popular. And the type of overly ambitious person who doesn't care about the horse is going to gravitate towards the more popular type of horse because she thinks that is going to win. In a perverse way, the more obscure breeds might benefit from dressage more, since their riders might have a greater tendency to be doing it for the right reasons? :eek:

[Bluesy]

I haven't really read all of the posts in this thread, so my post is more directed to the original poster. Keep in mind I am not a Dressage rider, although I think Dressage is (or should be) the basis of all riding.

If you are looking for an upper level dressage horse, look for a horse with conformation suited for upper level Dressage:
http://www.jwequine.com/pdf/conformation101-dressage.pdf
http://www.jwequine.com/pdf/Conformation-Dressage.pdf

Many Draft horses are suited for pulling - low point of shoulder, heavy on the forehand/pillar of support, etc. However, I'm sure, as always, there are exceptions to the general rule.

[Equibrit]

Do you honestly believe that anyone who dares to put a saddle on their drafts is risking their horse's health? That is ridiculous.


Clearly that is a ridiculous statement to make; it was not I that made it, however.
I stand by the statement that I made, which bears no resemblance to the above.

I'll make it a little easier for you - how about that? Move a couple of words ?

In dressage, if you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels.

[Roan]

. . .If you are looking for an upper level dressage horse, look for a horse with conformation suited for upper level Dressage. . .

[tongue in cheek]

Or, save yourself a lot of time and trouble and just look for a hairy, baroque horse :yes:

[/tongue in cheek]

Eileen

[canticle]

In dressage, if you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels.
This holds true for any type of horse though! :eek:

[lewin]

For the people who are saying they will break down I am sure you have lots of scientific evidence, studies done on percentage of draft horses who break down, etc. to back that up?!

Especially since all the people who work with the breeds, compete them, and ride them have told you that they have never had problems. My mare is 9 and completely sound. Unlike many well-bred warmbloods I have met. Why should 1500 lbs on top of 9" of cannon bone go unsound faster than 1500 lbs on top of 7" of cannon bone and MUCH smaller feet. They are not downhill, slow, and were certainly not bred to pull heavy loads within the last 40 years. (8 horses attached to a 1000lb wagon doesn't exactly require pulling ability)

When draft breeds started to come back into popularity the first comments were "They won't be able to canter."
Then when people started cantering them it became "They will never be suitable for sporthorse work"
And now that people are competing them in the sporthorse disciplines it is "They will go lame."

Completely without research those comments do come across as mean-spirited.

I have a full percheron that is doing very well. We did hunters until last year and at age 9 we started dressage training. Since November we have gone from not even training level to solid 1st, learning second and third level movements. She has a flying change, shoulder-in, haunches-in, leg-yelds, medium gaits, walk-canter-walk (downward still needs a little work), walk pirouettes, and we are about a month away (in both my trainers and my opinion) from a solid collected canter. I have been the only one doing the riding and have been learning at the same time.

Not exactly doing it the hard way. And she is an easy horse to ride. She tries her heart out, learns extremely quickly, is very forward, and is very sweet. I enjoy riding her more than I have enjoyed any other horse and that includes upper-level warmbloods and some PRE's. She was bold to the fences and the easiest horse to jump as a hunter, and is sensitive and forward as a dressage horse. In addition to that she is beautiful.

And Cottonwood Flame was full Percheron and did Grand Prix. He did not break down.

[Ambrey]

Some people just have to learn the hard way and it's unfortunate for the horse. If FEI is your goal I would start with a horse that has the conformation that will give him at least the basis to do what you will ask him to do.

Well, aren't you also talking about apples and oranges with draft horses? A drafty type Clyde and a modern type Percheron are just not the same kind of animal at all. I guess I don't understand why the excitement to lump all drafts into the same category.

I also think "going to FEI" and "beating Anky at the olympics" are not the same thing.

[Donella]

I have a fairly good understanding of equine biomechanics and the biomechanics of collection as well (we have a student of Dr Claytons that works at the stable and does therapy on the horses and she has given many clinics). Dr Clayton has done alot of well respected research in this area and in dressage in particular. She did an article in one of the more recent dressage todays stating the importance of particular conformation in regards to collection. None of the examples or descriptions fit with that of a draft horse.
If you notice in HorseSport magazine there are monthly articles devoted to specific conformational issues, almost always the hind leg apparatus. Sport horse registries are guided by conformational ideals for particular sports at which the said breed is aimed at. Conformation is a big deal and it is what sets one breed apart from the other.
But clearly some of you will never agree that form has anything to do with function. That is your choice and that is a mistake in my mind but thats fine.

Nobody is trying to pick on anyone or any breed of horse. If someone said to me "hanoverians are uphill horses that are very tall, tend to have large bone and heads and are not super sensitive" therefor they would not suit cattle cutting or team penning classes, I would not be in the least offended. That is how they are...it just is the way it is. All breeds are specialists in something...but that same conformation that makes them great for one thing often hinders them at another sport that requires something different.

Anyways..I feel like I am repeating myself here....

[canticle]

When draft breeds started to come back into popularity the first comments were "They won't be able to canter."
Then when people started cantering them it became "They will never be suitable for sporthorse work"
And now that people are competing them in the sporthorse disciplines it is "They will go lame."
Hah you're exactly right! Funny how that happens! :lol:

[Bravestrom]

Well I am going to have to have some issues here:

quoted -Donella
She did an article in one of the more recent dressage todays stating the importance of particular conformation in regards to collection. None of the examples or descriptions fit with that of a draft horse.
Yes, but did she specifically exclude drafts or even consider them.
If you notice in HorseSport magazine there are monthly articles devoted to specific conformational issues, almost always the hind leg apparatus. Sport horse registries are guided by conformational ideals for particular sports at which the said breed is aimed at. Conformation is a big deal and it is what sets one breed apart from the other.

I have four draft cross mares that are all foundation sport horse approved. One of my fillies out of one of my mares scored 86% in the Canadian Sport Horse Foal Championships.

Nobody is trying to pick on anyone or any breed of horse. If someone said to me "hanoverians are uphill horses that are very tall, tend to have large bone and heads and are not super sensitive" therefor they would not suit cattle cutting or team penning classes, I would not be in the least offended.

Yes, but if someone whated to do team penning or cattle cutting with a hanovarian, what right does anyone have to tell that person not to try it

If I want to do dressage, event or whatever else with my horse, baring anything dangerous - I certainly should be able to and what you should do is wish me luck not chastise the decision.

[NoDQhere]

It is absolutly fine and dandy to do Dressage (or whatever) with whatever breed (or non-breed) of horse you have and love. Get after it. But don't be carrying on then about the Warmblood conspiracy and us Warmblood people won't get our knickers in a twist trying to explain why the Warmblood got a better score.

[Donella]

Yes, but did she specifically exclude drafts or even consider them.

She didn't discuss breeds, she discussed conformation. And the conformation she discussed as being suited to collected work is about the opposite of what draft horses posses...generally speaking. So no..she didn't say "dont buy a draft horse" she just said "in order for a horse to be able to lift in front, sit behind..horse needs A, B , C ect". I am sure somewhere out there there is a draft that is built in a way that may sustain this kind of work...it just wouldn't be close to the norm.

I have four draft cross mares that are all foundation sport horse approved. One of my fillies out of one of my mares scored 86% in the Canadian Sport Horse Foal Championships

I still don't see draft cross as the same as drafts. I have had a number of drafts crosses and they are not the equivalent of their full draft parent..definately more athletic from my experience. On the other hand (and no offense, just my personal opinion), the CSH is hardly the gold standard in dressage or sport horse breeding. I don't see them anywhere on the top ten list according to WFSHB so their methods are not really tried, tested and true.

Yes, but if someone whated to do team penning or cattle cutting with a hanovarian, what right does anyone have to tell that person not to try it

Of course not, but if I went to a cutting BB and asked people if my Hano could cut it for serious cutting work, my guess is that people are going to give me an honest answer or they will at least assume that I want one. And God knows, I wouldn't be offended if they said the horse wouldn't make it past intro level or that he/she wouldn't stay sound. If you ask for an opinion you can't be mad just because the reality of the situation hurts your feelings.

And while anyone can do whatever they want, I think it is sad when people try to make a horse do a job it is so not cut out for. It doesn't look like its supposed to and usually the horse dislikes his work because he cant give enough/owner expects too much. I saw a combo like this a few weekends ago. I don't see the point of this.

Have fun,take the horse as far as he can COMFORTABLY go and see what happens. Nobody said it wont happen, its just very unlikely.

[lewin]

Breed standard from the Shire Horse Association.

Hindquarters: Long and sweeping, wide and full of muscle; well let down toward the thighs.

Hind legs: Hocks should be clean, broad, deep, flat and wide when viewed broad-side; set at the correct angle for leverage, and in line with the hind·quarters. Should be of heavy bone; "puffy" and "sickle" hocks to be avoided. The leg should be clean cut, hard, and clear of short cannon bone.

Pastern: Fairly long and sloped at about 45-degree angle.

Feet: Moderately deep and wide at the heels; coronets open


Ideal Hind-end from the American Trakehner Website:

Ideal Hindquarters:

a broad pelvis;
muscular thighs;
stifle caps pointing out;
muscular gaskins;
hocks broad and angular, from front and side; rear surfaces equally broad and lying below the points of the hocks; clean and dry with no puffiness;
hind cannon bones attached in the center below the hocks; hind pastern angle 40-45°;
open heels, substantial feet, regular hooves, evenly worn.


I have read a lot of Clayton's work as well. And there is nothing there that a well-conformed draft horse lacks. Sloping shoulders, good length of the femur, and good sized feet. And from the summer 2000 USDF connections article: "both Dr. Clayton and Mr. Schumacher agreed that it is easy to pick apart any horse's conformation. But the overall picture derived from structure, flexibility, and temperament, together with his balance and how fluidly he moves, all play important roles in determining whether the horse you're looking at can do the job you want him to."

[Ambrey]

It is absolutly fine and dandy to do Dressage (or whatever) with whatever breed (or non-breed) of horse you have and love. Get after it. But don't be carrying on then about the Warmblood conspiracy and us Warmblood people won't get our knickers in a twist trying to explain why the Warmblood got a better score.

Well, if there isn't actually a warmblood conspiracy/bias, this would make sense. If the warmbloods are performing better and getting better scores on gaits, then there's no conspiracy.

I believe the conspiracy people complain about is the one in which a warmblood gets a higher score than the non-warmblood for the same quality. "Breeding is as breeding does" as Forrest Gump might say, so if the Warmbloods are earning their higher scores more power to them. I hate to think that off breeds are being looked down upon because they are not the "right" breed even if they are doing good work (but as we can see here, it happens).

[Bobthehorse]

My daughter took her Irish Draught through 4th level. Irish Draught's often score well in dressage through PSG, although I have not known any at Grand Prix. Kim Severson has an Irish Draught cross (Tipperary Liadham?sp) who is scoring very well in eventing dressage. Gina Miles scores well with McKinleigh, an Irish Draught Sport horse, who events at advanced.

RIDs and IDSH's are not comparable to most draft breeds (not in some sort of quality battle, just apples and oranges). RIDs are a riding breed, of more riding horse confo, most other drafts are not. And the IDSHs eventing at the ULs are mostly TB in breeding, at least half. Just that a successful horse with a fraction of draft blood doesnt really prove that a full draft can have the same success. There are plenty of successful part-drafts, but they are not the same as full-drafts.

I dont think most purebred Shires have the build to be a UL horse, nor do most Friesians either, actually. But that doesnt mean he wouldnt be a fun lower to mid level horse.

[canticle]

And while anyone can do whatever they want, I think it is sad when people try to make a horse do a job it is so not cut out for. It doesn't look like its supposed to and usually the horse dislikes his work because he cant give enough/owner expects too much. I saw a combo like this a few weekends ago. I don't see the point of this.
Where are the scores of horses who are being asked to do a job they aren't cut out for? I just don't see this happening. I assure you that WBs don't feel embarrassed if forced to wear a western saddle. QHs don't feel self-conscious when jumping. I do think there's a lot of anthropomorphism going on here. Just because you aren't used to seeing a type of horse do something doesn't mean it is unfair to the horse. Horses are a lot more versatile than we give them credit for, and fundamentally correct conformation will lend itself to a variety of athletic activities. I'm not talking about world champion level. I'm talking about the ability to have fun doing more than one thing with your horse. It's good for both horse and rider.

[Bluesy]

Here is 3 time Olympic gold medalist Absent - an Akhal Teke: http://www.avatstud.com/images/AbsentConf.jpg

I believe he scored the highest mark ever awarded for Olympic dressage.

Lewin: those comformation points don't really mean much to me. I admit, still have a lot to learn, but after clinic-ing with Judy Wardrope last year ( http://www.jwequine.com/ ) I've changed the way I look at conformation.

Those attributes that you've listed off don't mention bone structure, i.e. L.S. placement, pillar of support etc., which I have learned (and still am learning - I am by no means a guru) is the most important when selecting a certain horse for a particular discipline. Sure muscling is great - but I believe what lies beneath is most important.

The thing is many (NOT all) draft horses are built heavy on the front end - they were bred to pull. In my opinion it would be very difficult to collect a horse built like that - and I can't imagine the horse would be very happy with being forced to do something it was not built for. Just like I am not built to be a gymnast - sure I could do some do some basic stuff - but if someone forced me to become a competitor at a top competition - boy they would hear about it! :winkgrin:

Not saying all drafts are in/uncapable of it - if they have the correct conformation - they will last, and be fairly happy with their job. If not...well you get the idea.

Many warmbloods do excel at jumping/dressage - but low and behold, guess what - they were bred for it. :)

Donella - I completely agree with you! I will look up Dr. Clayton, she sounds really knowlegable.

[lewin]

The thing is many (NOT all) draft horses are built heavy on the front end - they were bred to pull

But they aren't really bred to pull. Drafts spent their first century as riding horses, their next few as carriage/light coach/ diligence horses, heavy pulling horses, and then for the last century the breed has split again into the heavy work lines bred for size, strength, and temperament and the hitch horses for knee action, conformation, and upheadedness. Very little of their breeding was for heavy pulling. Percherons were the breed of choice for pulling the fire-wagons. Now that's heart and athleticism. I wouldn't recommend the heavier lines for sport work. But the horse the OP is talking about sounds like one of the modern hitch horses: Most likely quite suitable for dressage. Athletic, uphill, forward, and with a good mind.

L.S. placement, pillar of support etc., which I have learned (and still am learning - I am by no means a guru) is the most important when selecting a certain horse for a particular discipline.

The descriptions very much describe bone structure. Pastern angle, hock angles, depth and width of the pelvis. I think they are just different terms than you learned. (Pillar of support is not a part of a horse.) But I posted those to show that the ideal hind-end of a Shire was comparable to the ideal hind-end of a Trakehener. Will the horse be heavier...Damn straight. Is the trakehner more likely to succeed in dressage? Yep. Is a draft more likely to go lame than reach the upper levels? NO

[Bluesy]

Okay, so I admit I was wrong about drafts being bred to pull- I guess the type of draft I was thinking of was more of the percheron type.

I am very much aware that the pillar of support is not a part of the horse, my thinking (which may be wrong) was the general structure/line of the forelimb.

I understand that pelvis depth would be somewhat akin to ilium/femur angles and length, however; to me lower leg/hock angles are not as important (unless by serious deviation) as say, good LS, stifle placement, point of shoulder -well you get the idea. To illustrate my point, Wardrope had a shown us a picture of a (I think top?) dressage horse who was considerably over at the knee, though was around 20, still competing or had just finished competing, and was still sound as a dollar. Because this horse was correct in many other places, the front end issue was not a problem.

I don't recall saying anything about a draft going lame that reaching upper levels...I did mention they'd be uncomfortable and not happy (if not conformed for that duty)

Not all Trakehners are built for upper level dressage horses, so it is possible a draft conformed for the job might very well reach FEI while the Trakehner who was built for jumping may not :D :winkgrin:

[MusicMare]

When draft breeds started to come back into popularity the first comments were "They won't be able to canter."
Then when people started cantering them it became "They will never be suitable for sporthorse work"


:lol::lol: Wow. The idea of drafts not being able to canter just about made me spew coffee all over the computer screen. I'm so glad opinions have moved past that. I watched a full percheron run circles around warmbloods this weekend. The drafts attitude on a trail ride and in the ring appeals to some, not all. As for abilities, my draft is doing well in dressage lessons, but will never excel. She is not built for advanced levels, but the balance work is helping both of us to connect better.

Back to the OP's question, many have said it better than me, some drafts will do very well where as others (like mine) are just not built for upper level. And.... (forgot who said it) this applies to all breeds.

MM

[tarragon]

This may sound breedist or whatever, I call it living in reality. Breeds that were bred for this sort of work are most often the ones found at the top. This isnt some conspiracy as most of us on this board like to beleive. Form = Function...I am true beleiver in it because the proof is in the pudding. There are always exceptions...we are talking generalities

I completely agree with this poster's statement. There is an old breeder's saying that what is bred in, you don't have to train in.

I own and compete a Shire/TB mare. There are picture of her in my signature if you are interested. I love my mare, and she's a wonderful girl, but she has her limitations. She is schooling 2nd/3rd level, and will be showing at 2nd next weekend. She's had decent scores, in the mid to high 60s at training and 1st. In the past she showed in the Low and High Amateurs in the jumper ring, and was in the ribbons at shows like Ocala, Culpepper, Upperville, etc.

On the plus side, she has a wonderful, wonderful temperament. Nothing spooks her, she is exceptionally well-mannered and she never does anything stupid, all of which make me a much braver rider. Unlike a lot of draft crosses I've seen, she has a super canter. Her lateral work is pretty good. She is very sound and has the best feet of any horse I've ever known. At age 18, she has just started on a maintenance program. Oh, and she has the best tail ever :D

On the negative side, she stands out behind naturally. She has to work twice as hard to really "sit" behind. Not to say she can't do it, but it is hard work for her. Her trot is limited and she has little to no suspension. "Forward" does not come easily to her, neither does "through" and her main resistance is to suck back, really suck back- sometimes it's like riding with the parking brake on. Her gaits really aren't fancy enough for her to be really competitive, and to get even decent scores we have to be very, very correct.

I really think the draft crosses can be wonderful amateur horses, especially for the amateur that wants an "all-around" sort of horse. My mare is lovely on trails, and could easily do a local jumper show one weekend, event or foxhunt the next, and a dressage show the next. I do think they are limited in their potential for the upper levels, simply because they aren't built and bred for it. A horse with naturally good gaits, that has a really good hind end and that lifts its back and rounds its topline naturally is starting off so many steps ahead and will find moving up through the levels so much easier.

[Bravestrom]

Where are the scores of horses who are being asked to do a job they aren't cut out for? I just don't see this happening. I assure you that WBs don't feel embarrassed if forced to wear a western saddle. QHs don't feel self-conscious when jumping. I do think there's a lot of anthropomorphism going on here. Just because you aren't used to seeing a type of horse do something doesn't mean it is unfair to the horse. Horses are a lot more versatile than we give them credit for, and fundamentally correct conformation will lend itself to a variety of athletic activities. I'm not talking about world champion level. I'm talking about the ability to have fun doing more than one thing with your horse. It's good for both horse and rider.

I could not have said that better - my clyde/hackney gelding was bred as a commercial horse - used to pull coaches - he hated it - although he was bred for it. As a matter of fact the reason I have him is because he hated it.

He loves dressage - he collects, loves doing lateral movements, loves jumping and loves cross country. He really loves dressage - has learned to do a collected canter - while it took a bit to get him off the forehand his passage is really good. we also have a ball just hacking.

[J Swan]

For the OP:

Yes, a draft/draft cross can "do" the upper levels. Meaning, they are generally capable of performing the upper level movements, and are lovely, wonderful horses.

However, if you're asking if a draft/draft cross can be competitive at the upper levels, I'd have to say No. Not generally. Not as a rule.

The reasons why don't really matter. I've found that people who ask this question are lower level riders (I'm one too so it isn't an insult).

If you want to reach the upper levels - buy a horse that has been there and can teach you. Or, if you are an upper level rider, buy a horse that you can train, and that is of a breed that is bred for the work and the judges want to see.

Otherwise, I think you're setting yourself up for failure and frustration. I've seen plenty of crosses event, hunt, do dressage - and they are all super horses, friendly, and SOUND well into old age. The notions their legs fall off if you ask them to gallop is plain nonsense.

But - for the high level performance horse - if that's truly what you want to pursue - buy/lease a schoolmaster and learn the ropes.

Best of luck to you.

[NoDQhere]

Where are the scores of horses who are being asked to do a job they aren't cut out for? I just don't see this happening. I assure you that WBs don't feel embarrassed if forced to wear a western saddle. QHs don't feel self-conscious when jumping. I do think there's a lot of anthropomorphism going on here. Just because you aren't used to seeing a type of horse do something doesn't mean it is unfair to the horse. Horses are a lot more versatile than we give them credit for, and fundamentally correct conformation will lend itself to a variety of athletic activities. I'm not talking about world champion level. I'm talking about the ability to have fun doing more than one thing with your horse. It's good for both horse and rider.

As usual, you have totally missed the point. No one is saying that horses are EMBARASSED to do something they are not bred to do. How silly. What is being said is that forcing a horse to do a job his conformation is unsuited for can cause him HARM

[FancyFree]

Great post J Swan. You say it all right there, clearly and concisely.

[canticle]

As usual, you have totally missed the point. No one is saying that horses are EMBARASSED to do something they are not bred to do. How silly. What is being said is that forcing a horse to do a job his conformation is unsuited for can cause him HARM
Why on earth would safe and humane training harm a healthy and sound horse? On the contrary, I believe far more harm is done by not engaging in a variety of activities.

It's an uphill battle to convince happy horseowners that they've made a mistake. Is that why some have resorted to scare tactics?

[Ambrey]

As usual, you have totally missed the point. No one is saying that horses are EMBARASSED to do something they are not bred to do. How silly. What is being said is that forcing a horse to do a job his conformation is unsuited for can cause him HARM

And your position that draft horse conformation, in general, predisposes them to harm has not been proven. So all of the little criticisms set out by you and others, about how SAD it is when people push their poor horses to do things they hate/aren't bred for/aren't built for are just based on your own biases, not on knowledge.

If the poster is looking for a horse to be competitive at FEI levels, it will take a lot more shopping to find one, either WB or off-breed. But without seeing this particular horse, nobody can tell her how far this horse can go. A bunch of generalizations about drafts, which then bleed to draft crosses and all off breeds and become a "silly rabbit, FEI is for warmbloods" rant, aren't helpful.

[Lambie Boat]

tarragon posted a very honest response above. Her horse sounds exactly like mine, they seem to be at the same place I was with my Shire/TB mare. These are great horses, very versatile and fun, solid, great FEET, a leg in each corner, wonderful temperaments. Tarragon and I had experience and we both had the exact same things to say. I loved that mare more than words can describe and don't think I'll find another of that caliber.

but Grand Prix. no

[Bobthehorse]

Well, if there isn't actually a warmblood conspiracy/bias, this would make sense. If the warmbloods are performing better and getting better scores on gaits, then there's no conspiracy.

I believe the conspiracy people complain about is the one in which a warmblood gets a higher score than the non-warmblood for the same quality. "Breeding is as breeding does" as Forrest Gump might say, so if the Warmbloods are earning their higher scores more power to them. I hate to think that off breeds are being looked down upon because they are not the "right" breed even if they are doing good work (but as we can see here, it happens).

You know, there isnt a subtitle while youre riding that says the horses breed. Often times you cant tell a horses breed just by looking at them. And you surely cant tell how expensive they are, or their specific bloodlines. So I really dont see how there is such a big conspiracy.

I hear people say this about hunters too, that you only win if you have money...but the judges have no idea how much money you have as your riding around the ring.

[MyReality]

For those who fought against the big tidal wave, and try to talk about the sensibility and science of breeding, and asking the horse to do the right job, thank you.

And I HAVE a draft cross. AND I KNOW she cannot do upper level work, but that is not the reason I bought her. JSwan hit the nail on the head, if you have to ask, you probably are not an upper level rider looking for prospect, then you may as well buy any reasonable athletic horse, including this draft cross.

You don't whip any draft out and start working him in dressage. Breeders like prodomus, they actively breed athleticism into the mix, while retaining the good nature and quietness of a good draft cross. That's why you breed to Rio, right? You wouldn't breed back to a another heavy set draft. That's what I have been saying all this time, including some TB discussion of the same nature. If you want a breed to succeed in a sport, you want to keep improving the characteristics for a sport, while retaining traits true to the breed. If you go around saying, any horse can do anything, that breed or line will never be successful.

Every breed has a market. I don't think draft crosses are ever in the market for upper level dressage. So what? If they are, it's a totally different ball game and probably you won't be half as successful. Why put yourself in a bad spot?

I find almost all draft crosses' canter slow to develop. Even very athletic ones... at 6 or 7, they still struggle with the canter. So start late, slow and easy, lots of ground work. If a draft cross is born with a good light canter, he is probably a good purchase.

Draft crosses also tend to be laterally stiff. You need to develop that awareness of your leg right from the beginning. Lots of work on suppling. But most of them have a very flexible neck, which could drive you crazy... so it's the age old throughness that you need to work on, not unlike any other breed really. Mine can throw a few good bucks, although she never meant to dump you, so very important to make them go forward.

Other than that, they are wonderful movers, very athletic, a sweetheart to be around, quite low maintainance (hard to fit saddles though), very sensible type of horse and generally easy to ride, easy to sit to. They tend to be very 'textbook'... ride forward into hand, inside leg to outside hand, then they are 'there', i.e. uncomplicated. (My TB needs more special techniques and sensitivity.) I mean as a ammie, what more could you ask for really?

[FancyFree]

"Warmblood conspiracy" Now I've heard everything. :lol:

[Ambrey]

I find almost all draft crosses' canter slow to develop. Even very athletic ones... at 6 or 7, they still struggle with the canter. So start late, slow and easy, lots of ground work. If a draft cross is born with a good light canter, he is probably a good purchase.

Draft crosses also tend to be laterally stiff. You need to develop that awareness of your leg right from the beginning. Lots of work on suppling. But most of them have a very flexible neck, which could drive you crazy... so it's the age old throughness that you need to work on, not unlike any other breed really. Mine can throw a few good bucks, although she never meant to dump you, so very important to make them go forward.

Laterally stiff and struggling to canter don't really describe my guy either. We have had to work on the canter, but he's only 7 and it's coming along fine. He loffs the laterals- he's been in full training since January, and with all of the rain he has maybe 30-40 rides, and has gotten SI,HI,and leg yield down in that time. He's always been super sensitive to the leg.

And although I know Lewin has worked canter quite a bit with her horse, laterally stiff definitely is NOT a word to describe her purebred perch. That horse can bend like nobody's business.

Now is my horse an upper level prospect? Totally depends on what "upper levels" means to you. I suspect a really talented rider could get him to FEI, because he's super smart and full of try. I think his competetiveness at those levels would depend a lot on his rider. He's not going to be a horse that coasts his 40+ mediocre rider to PSG, or even 4th. But as I said before, I couldn't afford one of those- there are a couple at my barn, in the $50k-$70k range (made dressage horses). Too many zeroes for me. I'm looking forward to learning with him and getting as far as I can.

There are quite a few draft crosses competing in FEI (I noticed during a search of Cottonwood Flame that several of his progeny are doing I1/I2) and I suspect that as breeding improves we'll be seeing them at GP (look at Courtney Frasier and Against All Odds, they prove it can be done!). I still think draft crosses are fabulous for those of us without olympic aspirations!

eta: These are pics of one of his training sessions, a couple of weeks ago.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/IMG_0063.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/IMG_0068.jpg

[NoDQhere]

And your position that draft horse conformation, in general, predisposes them to harm has not been proven. So all of the little criticisms set out by you and others, about how SAD it is when people push their poor horses to do things they hate/aren't bred for/aren't built for are just based on your own biases, not on knowledge.

If the poster is looking for a horse to be competitive at FEI levels, it will take a lot more shopping to find one, either WB or off-breed. But without seeing this particular horse, nobody can tell her how far this horse can go. A bunch of generalizations about drafts, which then bleed to draft crosses and all off breeds and become a "silly rabbit, FEI is for warmbloods" rant, aren't helpful.

Has it ever occured to you that "some" of us are basing our observations on experience? That maybe we have "been there, done that"? Like Donella said, no one would be offended if a cutting horse trainer said your Draft was unsuitable for cutting. Or that asking him to cut might actually cause him to hurt himself. But it is a major crime to even suggest that, just maybe, he might not be suitable for upper level Dressage. That is all anyone is saying. The OP did ask about upper level.

As far as the differences between Draft and Warmblood conformation, if a person can't see it, there is nothing I or anyone else can say that will enable a person see the differences.

[Ambrey]

Has it ever occured to you that "some" of us are basing our observations on experience? That maybe we have "been there, done that"? Like Donella said, no one would be offended if a cutting horse trainer said your Draft was unsuitable for cutting. Or that asking him to cut might actually cause him to hurt himself. But it is a major crime to even suggest that, just maybe, he might not be suitable for upper level Dressage. That is all anyone is saying. The OP did ask about upper level.

How many draft horses have you trained for dressage? And how many were injured/broke down through proper use and training? I'd definitely like to hear about your experience in this area.

eta: My point here is NOT that drafts are as likely as dressage-bred WBs, or dressage-bred draft crosses for that matter, to succeed at upper levels. I think we can all agree that that's not the case. But, the OP said she LIKED this Shire, and wanted to know if it was possible to get him to upper levels. I think the post that listed problem areas to look for is more helpful than just saying "ugh, drafts can't do dressage, get a warmblood" followed by "if you get a draft and try to teach it to do dressage, you'll hurt it."

FWIW, my Perch x QH would probably make a great cutting horse, if he didn't squash the cows in the process :lol:.

I don't understand why WB fans have to be so discouraging to those who choose to go with off breeds or end up there by necessity. I've experienced it over and over, though. I have been told point blank that nobody should be breeding draft crosses, or any other cross meant to succeed as a sporthorse, because perfection has already been reached. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder!

[Bravestrom]

You don't whip any draft out and start working him in dressage. Breeders like prodomus, they actively breed athleticism into the mix, while retaining the good nature and quietness of a good draft cross. That's why you breed to Rio, right? You wouldn't breed back to a another heavy set draft.

you are right - I specifically looked for a draft cross that had qualities I wanted then looked for a stallion that would enhance her but maintain certain abilities and features - the rio filly is out of a tb/belgian mare and she has brought out what I wanted - size, bone and movement

I find almost all draft crosses' canter slow to develop. Even very athletic ones... at 6 or 7, they still struggle with the canter. So start late, slow and easy, lots of ground work. If a draft cross is born with a good light canter, he is probably a good purchase.

this is very true - it does take later - because they take longer to mature too - my gelding grew until he was 7 - he is now 8 and has a beautiful light canter - my tb/belgian mare is 6 but is blessed with a light canter

Draft crosses also tend to be laterally stiff. You need to develop that awareness of your leg right from the beginning. Lots of work on suppling. But most of them have a very flexible neck, which could drive you crazy... so it's the age old throughness that you need to work on, not unlike any other breed really. Mine can throw a few good bucks, although she never meant to dump you, so very important to make them go forward.

Other than that, they are wonderful movers, very athletic, a sweetheart to be around, quite low maintainance (hard to fit saddles though), very sensible type of horse and generally easy to ride, easy to sit to. They tend to be very 'textbook'... ride forward into hand, inside leg to outside hand, then they are 'there', i.e. uncomplicated. (My TB needs more special techniques and sensitivity.) I mean as a ammie, what more could you ask for really?


Have to agree with a lot of what you say - the mind is a big thing with me - my clyde crosses have the best minds - smart, willing to please and incredibly sensible, brave and strong.

For us a big factor is the size - I am not small - 5'7" and my sons are both pushing 6' and then some - they have started riding some of our crosses after only a month or two of ground work and been able to teach them when they are learning themselves.

[NoDQhere]

How many draft horses have you trained for dressage? And how many were injured/broke down through proper use and training? I'd definitely like to hear about your experience in this area.

Well, actually, a few. One we Evented at Novice Level. He got good Dressage scores, but could barely make the time x-country. We didn't break him down because we had enough sense to realize his limitations. Had we kept pushing him, yes, he would have developed issues with soundness. Over the years I've known several people with Draft crosses. Nice horses but not upper level horses.

We actually have :eek: a Draft horse. He is a Belgian. 1900#, 17.2, chestnut with a flaxen mane. He's PINK. A very cool horse, we love him to death. But he is not shaped to be a Dressage horse. The key here is proper use and training. Of course proper use and training won't break a horse down:rolleyes:. But then, I've never broken a horse down. And I evented to Intermediate Level. Our Trakehner stallion competed through I-1 barefoot and to GP without hock injections or even supplements.

Why do you suppose this is??? Just maybe it is because, through experience and investing the time in learning and developing an eye for conformation and understanding form to function the horses have been suitable for the job asked of them????

[canticle]

Has it ever occured to you that "some" of us are basing our observations on experience? That maybe we have "been there, done that"?
Maybe, just maybe, you're not the only person who has "been there, done that." ;) There are a lot of experienced people who have come to the opposite conclusions as you. Why are you so convinced they are making a mistake? If everyone is happy, what is the problem?
Like Donella said, no one would be offended if a cutting horse trainer said your Draft was unsuitable for cutting. Or that asking him to cut might actually cause him to hurt himself. But it is a major crime to even suggest that, just maybe, he might not be suitable for upper level Dressage. That is all anyone is saying. The OP did ask about upper level.
With your logic, WBs are unsuitable for dressage as well, since so many are unsound (I'm glad your guy is an exception!). I do have to wonder what the appeal is of a discipline that is cruel, unfair, and dangerous to so many horses. Maybe someone could step in and legislate which breeds are allowed to compete in dressage? If the horse's welfare is truly at stake, then why do we even allow "off-breeds"?

The ironic thing is that the "unsuitable" horses are doing just fine, while the "suitable" horses tend to be the ones more likely to struggle with soundness issues.

[Ambrey]

Well, actually, a few. One we Evented at Novice Level. He got good Dressage scores, but could barely make the time x-country. We didn't break him down because we had enough sense to realize his limitations. Had we kept pushing him, yes, he would have developed issues with soundness. Over the years I've known several people with Draft crosses. Nice horses but not upper level horses.


So you're not saying that drafts and crosses can't do dressage. You're saying that they are not all made for upper level dressage. I'll agree with that. Most horses, even WBs, don't make it to I2/GP.

Congrats on your Trak. I know a couple of horses soundly doing upper level work into their golden years. I couldn't have afforded them as young prospects, for sure :)

[Equibrit]

Why on earth would safe and humane training harm a healthy and sound horse? On the contrary, I believe far more harm is done by not engaging in a variety of activities.

It's an uphill battle to convince happy horseowners that they've made a mistake. Is that why some have resorted to scare tactics?


AS USUAL YOU HAVE TOTALLY MISSED THE POINT!

[NoDQhere]

Maybe, just maybe, you're not the only person who has "been there, done that." ;) There are a lot of experienced people who have come to the opposite conclusions as you. Why are you so convinced they are making a mistake? If everyone is happy, what is the problem?

With your logic, WBs are unsuitable for dressage as well, since so many are unsound (I'm glad your guy is an exception!). I do have to wonder what the appeal is of a discipline that is cruel, unfair, and dangerous to so many horses. Maybe someone could step in and legislate which breeds are allowed to compete in dressage? If the horse's welfare is truly at stake, then why do we even allow "off-breeds"?

The ironic thing is that the "unsuitable" horses are doing just fine, while the "suitable" horses tend to be the ones more likely to struggle with soundness issues.

Our guy is hardly the exception. There are many teenage Dressage horses that are sound. Go to some Dressage Shows, you will see them. We have a gal in our region who rides a 20+ Hanno at GP.

Dressage is hardly "cruel, dangerous and unfair". We have many horses "doing" Dressage. All are sound and happy. But they also find the work do-able without struggling. I think you are a person who just likes to argue for arguments sake. All that has been said here is that forcing a horse to do something that his conformation isn't suitable for could do him harm.

[MyReality]

prodomus, good point! I completely forgot to mention about the substance/size a draft cross provides... which is another reason I bought mine. My TB is pretty opinionated about weight (could be due to some injury. He happily carries me though so no real complaint there). I needed a horse that could carry a bigger rider.

We are discussing it the other day, the market is maturing for draft crosses right now for the ammies market. They are just light enough these days, but still sturdy... they are just athletic enough without being too difficult... yes they don't usually make it to upper level, but they do show very well and give the owners few troubles at shows. The breeders are doing a great job. The resale market is very good too.

prodomus, could you give me some guidance as to what saddle I should look into. I find mine detest anything but Passier, but it's a little out of our price range right now. What saddle do you use on your crosses?

[mishmash]

Doing upper level dressage takes a good athlete-no matter the breed. I know of many athletic draft crosses out there who are extremely competitive. I ride a full Percheron who has more suspension that most horses I see at dressage shows-including the warmbloods. I will attach a link to some pix of us. What is limiting my boy?....his rider. :(
http://www.redhatriders.net/LindaPhifer.html
The pix are by Jen Kaiser. And yes, he is a registered Percheron-not a cross.

And peruse the website of Forrest Hill Farm if you want to see drafts and draft crosses jumping, doing dressage, and looking pretty competent at it.

www.forresthillfarm.com

[elctrnc]

I'll make it a little easier for you - how about that? Move a couple of words ?

In dressage, if you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels.

equibrit, how about we change a "couple of words" too....

if you change "draught" to "warmblood," you will also have a true statement. your statement says that, as a whole dressage-riding population, drafts are more likely to break down than make it to FEI. however, if you look at the entire population of warmbloods and then compare how many break down and then how many make it to FEI, there are going to be more that break down. same for any breed really just because of the small number that make it to FEI.

I love it when people try to be condescending, but then still don't prove their point. :lol:

[Equibrit]

I love it when people try to be condescending, but then still don't prove their point. :lol:

I do not need to PROVE a point if I am expressing an opinion. Just trying to make it a little easier for you 40 watters!

[J Swan]

Oooo - ten points to Equibrit. :lol::lol:

[Donella]

The breed standards for the shire doesnt really indicate sport horse conformation. You don't want stifles that point outwards...this is a draft chararistic. My friesian mare has this and it is not desireable. Secondly, there is no mention of LS placement which is HUGE, no mention of uphill or even level build. No mention of the relative lengths of the hind leg bones..Ie..drafts have a problem with short femurs..and this is a huge detriment to a dressage prospect. It also doesnt fix the issue of those MASSIVE forhands. That is ALOT of weight to lift onto the hind legs apparatus.

And canticle, your reasoning is flawed. The vast majority of horses at the upper level are warmbloods and iberian breeds therefor there is going to be a higher number of them needing maintenance ect. How many off breeds are actually up there? You cannot compare the numbers like that...its wrong statistically. Its like saying that there are more african american NBA players who have had knee replacement surgery compared to white NBA players so therefor white players must be more suited.

I have yet to meet a serious, well respected FEI trainer, classical or not who believes any horse can be a competative FEI horse and that conformation doesnt play a huge role. On the other hand, there are lots of these trainers who will ride unconventional breeds and train them right...I still don't see them on the olympic teams..or even long listed for that matter or winning open USDF horse of the year awards (on drafts). You can yabber on all you want about how suited they are, but the proof is in the pudding, plain and simple!

[Ambrey]

I love it when people try to be condescending, but then still don't prove their point. :lol:

Because an opinion is not a fact, even if you try to convince people that it is. Without data to back it up, it's just an opinion.

And the singular of data is not anecdote.

"My draft bred belgian is not built for dressage" does not translate into "no draft is built for dressage."

"Many drafts don't make it out of lower levels" does not logically precede "you're more likely to break down a draft than get it to upper levels."

"Warmbloods are bred for dressage" does not support the conclusion "one should not ride any other horse in dressage."

It's logic 101.

[Ambrey]

I do not need to PROVE a point if I am expressing an opinion. Just trying to make it a little easier for you 40 watters!

The fact that you characterize those who disagree with your opinions (admittedly not backed up by data) as dim bulbs says something about the strength of your argument.

[Donella]

btw... I think that Cottonwood Flame looks lovely but he is also not your typical draft nor is he built like a shire (which is what the OP's question was about). I am speaking in generalities here and one or two specimens of a breed to reach FEI is not convincing me that the breed as a whole is capable. I am not even sure there has been even more than one to reach FEI?

[Donella]

"Many drafts don't make it out of lower levels" does not logically precede "you're more likely to break down a draft than get it to upper levels."

Next lesson in logic would be to ask the question "why". Most likely it is not that draft horse dressage riders are inherently uninterested in going further with their horse, or that they are somehow way different from other dressage riders. The likely explanation is that the horse is not capable of doing what is requested at a certain piont...

[Ambrey]

I have yet to meet a serious, well respected FEI trainer, classical or not who believes any horse can be a competative FEI horse and that conformation doesnt play a huge role. On the other hand, there are lots of these trainers who will ride unconventional breeds and train them right...I still don't see them on the olympic teams..or even long listed for that matter or winning open USDF horse of the year awards (on drafts). You can yabber on all you want about how suited they are, but the proof is in the pudding, plain and simple!

I don't even understand what point people are trying to make here, honestly. Most of us are not shopping at the store that sells olympic prospects.

The OP said that she found a Shire she really liked and loved the idea of doing dressage with off breeds. I don't recall her mentioning the olympics or HOY. She said "upper levels" which could mean anything from 4th to GP. She didn't show a picture of the horse. Just asked whether it's possible to do dressage with a draft.

I am acquainted with a couple of people who are shopping for good GP horses with competitive years ahead of them. One of them has a budget in the 6 figures. The other one has a budget slightly lower and had to give up on getting a currently competing horse in favor of a prospect. Neither of them will be looking at random drafts/draft crosses. Neither are they looking for a backyard bred warmblood. They are going to be looking at very high quality, well bred european warmbloods or iberians.

They are not having a ton of prospects drop in their laps, by the way. The really strong competitive high level horse might seem common when you're hanging around dressage shows, but when you're looking to buy one you find they are few and far between. And in high demand.

I think the point that people have been trying to make in favor of drafts is that they are not a homogeneous population. Some people have been breeding drafts that are more suited as sporthorses. If you look at the picture that mishmash posted, does that look like what pops into your head when you think "percheron?" Her horse looks a lot like Lewin's percheron- not at all like a plow horse. And not 17.2hh and 1900 lbs either.

[Ambrey]

Next lesson in logic would be to ask the question "why". Most likely it is not that draft horse dressage riders are inherently uninterested in going further with their horse, or that they are somehow way different from other dressage riders. The likely explanation is that the horse is not capable of doing what is requested at a certain piont...

But there are drafts and draft crosses that have competed at GP. So they do exist. Just blowing off everyone who wants to try to bring a draft up the levels makes no sense.

eta: I don't think Cottonwood Flame is atypical for a modern type Percheron. And I've never seen a Shire do upper levels, but I'd love to see someone try!

[Bravestrom]

prodomus, good point! I completely forgot to mention about the substance/size a draft cross provides... which is another reason I bought mine. My TB is pretty opinionated about weight (could be due to some injury. He happily carries me though so no real complaint there). I needed a horse that could carry a bigger rider.

We are discussing it the other day, the market is maturing for draft crosses right now for the ammies market. They are just light enough these days, but still sturdy... they are just athletic enough without being too difficult... yes they don't usually make it to upper level, but they do show very well and give the owners few troubles at shows. The breeders are doing a great job. The resale market is very good too.

prodomus, could you give me some guidance as to what saddle I should look into. I find mine detest anything but Passier, but it's a little out of our price range right now. What saddle do you use on your crosses?

We have great success with the Stubben saddles - going with the wider width but not too long down the back - my older son is 6'2" and rides in a 19" saddle with longer flaps - one of his crosses has a short back while the other one has a longer back - yet both horses handle the saddle very well - the tough one was the short backed - we had a lot of issues with different saddles for her. He has both the roxanne dressage and the roxanne jumper - they were great - special orders at no extra charge. I also ride in a stubben.

You can see both his horses as well as some of our other draft crosses at

www.hotelfun4kids.com/horses.htm

There is a huge market for draft cross sport horses in australia.

by the way - if anyone is interested you can join our draft cross riders of ontario on facebook (don't have to be from ontario) - just have to love drafts and draft crosses.

[Coreene]

loved that mare more than words can describe and don't think I'll find another of that caliber.Everyone who knew Savel loved her. What a wonderful mare she was. :sadsmile:

[Ambrey]

Everyone who knew Savel loved her. What a wonderful mare she was. :sadsmile:

But you love Smokey too, right? :winkgrin:

[Ambrey]

We have great success with the Stubben saddles - going with the wider width but not too long down the back - my older son is 6'2" and rides in a 19" saddle with longer flaps - one of his crosses has a short back while the other one has a longer back - yet both horses handle the saddle very well - the tough one was the short backed - we had a lot of issues with different saddles for her. He has both the roxanne dressage and the roxanne jumper - they were great - special orders at no extra charge. I also ride in a stubben.

Veering off topic, but fitting my guy was a nightmare. He is wider than Lewin's purebred percheron by a good margin. The Wintec with the xw gullet was a no-go. The Duett with the 39 cm gullet was OK, but didn't fit well down the back and was a bit too long. My current experiment is a Schleese Infinity that I had to trailer his sorry butt 30 miles to have fitted, resulting in much giggling and oohing by the fitter at his broadness :lol:.

[Coreene]

But you love Smokey too, right? :winkgrin:He's a doll! And Lewin's mare as well. Oliver was very hot for Savel (he would piaffe for her to show da love), and has a big thing for Lewin's horse now, too. He's all about the real women! :cool:

[canticle]

can yabber on all you want about how suited they are, but the proof is in the pudding, plain and simple!
You are right, the proof is in the pudding. So why the desire to convince the countless, happy non-WB owners that they have made a big mistake? Why the desperate attempts to scare people into believing that their sound horses are on the verge of going lame because they dare to participate in the dangerous sport of dressage?

We'd ALL like to think that our horses are perfect, that our chosen breed is the best. And our horses ARE the best for us, or else we wouldn't have chosen them! But it crosses the line from preference to fanatacism when you *really* start to believe it and can't accept that others have done things differently. When you try to scare people into buying your preferred breed of horse.

You're certainly right that the proof is in the pudding. And that's precisely why people chose the horses they did.

[canticle]

Next lesson in logic would be to ask the question "why". Most likely it is not that draft horse dressage riders are inherently uninterested in going further with their horse, or that they are somehow way different from other dressage riders. The likely explanation is that the horse is not capable of doing what is requested at a certain piont...
I disagree, I think that is precisely what it is.

[Ambrey]

He's a doll! And Lewin's mare as well. Oliver was very hot for Savel (he would piaffe for her to show da love), and has a big thing for Lewin's horse now, too. He's all about the real women! :cool:

LOL, she mentioned this morning that Ollie has a thing for her. Smokey is a total idiot in love with her, but she's never given him a second look.

I think she has the hots for one of those Lusi studs :winkgrin:.

I never got to meet Savel. I wish I had, she sounds wonderful.

[Ambrey]

I disagree, I think that is precisely what it is.

And that not many people are out shopping for drafty dressage prospects! When good riders/breeders get interested and get involved, good dressage horses do turn up.

A quick look at http://www.forresthillfarm.com/page3.html will show you several!

[Coreene]

I never got to meet Savel. I wish I had, she sounds wonderful.She was gorgeous. One of my most favorite horses every, owned by two of my most favorite people ever. :yes:

[Luckydonkey]

<<I've seen a girl riding a Shire that is a pinto, everyone says he is a gypsy cob but I asked and he is fully papered.>>

A fully papered Shire??? I have always thought the only allowed colors are black, bay, brown,gray, with roan permissible but not preferred.

Just wondering...

probably one who exhibits the sabino gene- common in shires and clydes...

[Donella]

Ok...look, I am not trying to disaude anyone from buying and riding the horse they like. I ride a friesian OK. I breed Hanoverians and I ride a friesian...you don't have to lecture me about wanting to ride a horse because you really like that breed ect. But I am also away of her conformation and therefor her probable limitations.

The OP asked for opinions on drafts as dressage horses. I took that to mean competative dressage. I gave my opinion and my reasoning for it. I am not saying she shouldnt buy it...I just gave my opinion on what she asked. Thats it.....

[Donella]

Ok...look, I am not trying to disaude anyone from buying and riding the horse they like. I ride a friesian OK. I breed Hanoverians and I ride a friesian...you don't have to lecture me about wanting to ride a horse because you really like that breed ect. But I am also aware of her conformation and therefor her probable limitations.

The OP asked for opinions on drafts as dressage horses. I took that to mean competative dressage. I gave my opinion and my reasoning for it. I am not saying she shouldnt buy it...I just gave my opinion on what she asked. Thats it.....

[frisbee]

Okay, all the people who doubt that draft crosses can and have made it to FEI need to pay closer attention - I ride one and know of at least 2 others who also compete respectably at FEI at recognized shows. My horse is a Perch cross, one is a Belgium cross and the other is a Hackney cross. All showed PSG/ I1 last year and are schooling Grand Prix (ie. can do a CLEAR and good quality piaffe and passage, and can do ones.)
Both riders of the other horses are friends of mine, so I happen to know that neither one of them has had any soundness issues with their horses (and the Belgium cross is not exactly light!) I know this is purely anecdotal evidence, but it seems like that is all any of us are going on!
Do any of us think that we are going to the Olympics on our crosses? No. However, I don't think any of us have the funds to buy a sufficiently talented youngster that would be a more definite contender. Plus, we love OUR horses. We all manage to do quite well against some pretty stiff competition - we don't win much, but there's a whole lot of warmbloods who don't either. I will continue to argue that the reason why you don't see more draft crosses at FEI is because they are mostly bought by amateurs who won't make it to the upper levels themselves.

P.S. Prospect - if your draft cross is schooling 4th level (which would mean that he is very comfortable with 3rd level work and is maybe playing with the tempis and schooling pirouettes) then you are just one step away from PSG! So come on out and join our ranks so I will have more ammunition in this argument! lol

[Roan]

Can we not all sum this up with the following statement:

IF you can find a draft cross with the right conformation and IF he displays talent for dressage, THEN you could POSSIBLY school him to upper levels.

Same goes for ANY breed, really.

This argument is going nowhere fast.

Eileen

[oldschool]

As the original OP, I didn't realize what a can of worms I had opened. I'm new to dressage but have educated myself with the training scale, reiner klimke tapes and the like. If I can figure out how to download a dvd to internet ,you will all see the clinic this shire had with Steffen Peters asst. He was as round and forward as anything else I have seen here for a horse at his age. The trainer didn't seem to have to use alot of driving aids to get him there. Sure, the canter wasn't optimum but from what I understand, he had only cantered in his whole life, mounted or not , for 2 mos. I think he may not be a typical draft? Like I said, I'm new to Dressage, and easily impressed I'm sure. Don't need to go to the Big O. (olympics for you dirty minds). Just have fun and progress on a solid citizen who won't totally embarass me. From what I hear, the owner is fighting off offers right and left.

[Ambrey]

Oh, he sounds cute! I think you should get him so we can see pictures :)

[Donella]

Can we not all sum this up with the following statement:

IF you can find a draft cross with the right conformation and IF he displays talent for dressage, THEN you could POSSIBLY school him to upper levels.

Same goes for ANY breed, really.

This argument is going nowhere fast

Agreed,
and to the OP...I would love to see pics of him, he sounds cool.

[Bravestrom]

P.S. Prospect - if your draft cross is schooling 4th level (which would mean that he is very comfortable with 3rd level work and is maybe playing with the tempis and schooling pirouettes) then you are just one step away from PSG! So come on out and join our ranks so I will have more ammunition in this argument! lol

oh we are working on it - got my gold membership, joined dressage canada and am thinking of converting from eventing to dressage - plan to show a couple nationals this year with my coach - palgrave, cne and we will see - I have to slip them in between the kid's events.

He really loves the dressage so we will see you around.:winkgrin:

[elctrnc]

I do not need to PROVE a point if I am expressing an opinion. Just trying to make it a little easier for you 40 watters!

oh, i thought there should be some point and clarity to an opinion. guess i was wrong! :lol:

edited to add: and obviously it wasn't easier for us "40 watters," because your statement still didn't make sense and really had no relevance to the thread because it pertained to every horse, not just draft horses. that's the POINT i was trying to make.

[Bravestrom]

color me confused - what is a 40 watter - never heard that before.

[Ambrey]

color me confused - what is a 40 watter - never heard that before.

A not-very-brightly-burning lightbulb.

[Bravestrom]

oh - I thought is was referring to something else - silly me - and this coming from the wife of an electrician - he will have a good laugh over that one.

Should we take it as an insult or look where it is coming from.

[Ambrey]

oh - I thought is was referring to something else - silly me - and this coming from the wife of an electrician - he will have a good laugh over that one.

Should we take it as an insult or look where it is coming from.

I don't know, did you figure out yet that you are harming your drafts and draft crosses by riding dressage? I haven't, so I guess I am weakly lit :lol:.

[Bravestrom]

I don't know, did you figure out yet that you are harming your drafts and draft crosses by riding dressage? I haven't, so I guess I am weakly lit :lol:.

Well, I guess my gelding and mare must be weakly lit too because they love what they are doing. They are so happy when I ride them - they come when called to go riding, my gelding gets mad when I ride someone else and they both absolutely love their job - maybe then have a serious addiction?

I defy anyone to say we are harming our horses - we take great pains - not to mention expense - to ensure that our training is done properly with professional trainers, they have a great diet, a wonderful home and that they enjoy what they are doing. Since we have had horses doing dressage and eventing not one has come up lame. We had a hano that pulled a suspensory after 1/2 a year of work and she was 8 yrs old.

We are well aware that these guys mature later and that collection work and jumping needs to be introduced later than with lighter breeds. We have a nutritionist that has developed a diet for them that takes into account their breeding, their workload and their feeding requirements.

Not that you need to do all above by any means, but to tell me I am harming my horse by doing dressage when he looks as good as he does, works as well as he does and is as happy as he is just gets my goat.

[philosoraptor]

Recently. at my barn, I've seen a girl riding a Shire that is a pinto, everyone says he is a gypsy cob but I asked and he is fully papered.

Probably not a shire. Sounds like some crossbred. He might be registered with some other sporthorse or spotted horse association, but he's not a reg SHIRE. Shires don't have pinto spots.

American Shire Horse Assoc (http://www.shirehorse.org/Information/BreedStandard/)

Can a shire do upper level? He looks really fancy and is small for his breed. I hear he is for sale and am really intrigued. He moves better than a lot of Freisians at my barn.

But he's not a Shire. :)

[Ambrey]

Probably not a shire. Sounds like some crossbred. He might be registered with some other sporthorse or spotted horse association, but he's not a reg SHIRE. Shires don't have pinto spots.

American Shire Horse Assoc (http://www.shirehorse.org/Information/BreedStandard/)



But he's not a Shire. :)

There are a few loud Sabino shires out there. It says "undesirable" not "impossible."

http://www.tallyhoshires.com/rachel.htm
http://www.windynightshires.com/images/acepat_lg.JPG

Not really a pinto, but look at the gorgeous coloring on this one!
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2407592660089092476TOaYuX

[Wild Oaks Farm]

I just don't know how you people can even ride these big draftie and draftie crosses in dressage!

When I turn up the center line to finish my test, I feel like I can barely get my 13.3 pony to make the turn...and I admire everyone who can keep those big horses together! :lol:

[Equibrit]

THE Standard.


http://www.shire-horse.org.uk/breed_standard.htm

COLOUR Black, brown, bay or grey. No good stallion should be splashed with large white patches over the body. He must not be roan or chestnut.
HEIGHT 17 hands (173 cms) high at maturity. Average about 17.2 hands (178 cms).
HEAD Long and lean, neither too large or too small, with long neck in proportion to the body. Large jaw bone should be avoided.
EYES Large, well set and docile in expression. Wall eyes not acceptable.
NOSE Slightly Roman nostrils thin and wide; lips together.
EARS Long, lean, sharp and sensitive.
THROAT Clean cut and lean.
SHOULDER Deep and oblique, wide enough to support the collar.
NECK Long, slightly arched, well set on to give the horse a commanding appearance.
GIRTH The girth varies from 6 ft (183 cms) to 8 ft (244 cms) in stallions of from 16.2 (168 cms) to 18 hands (183 cms).
BACK Short, strong and muscular. Should not be dipped or roached.
LOINS Standing well up, denoting good constitution (must not be flat).
FORE-END Wide across the chest, with legs well under the body and well enveloped in muscle, or action is impeded.
HIND-QUARTERS Long and sweeping, wide and full of muscle, well let down towards the thighs.
RIBS Round, deep and well sprung, not flat.
FORELEGS Should be as straight as possible down to pastern.
HINDLEGS Hocks should be not too far back and in line with the hind-quarters with ample width broadside and narrow in front. “Puffy” and “sickle” hocks should be avoided. The leg sinews should be clean cut and hard like fine cords to touch and clear of short cannon bone.
BONE MEASUREMENT Of flat bone 11 inches (28 cms) is ample, although occasionally 12½ inches (32 cms) is recorded – flat bone is heavier and stronger than spongy bone. Hocks must be broad, deep and flat and set at the correct angle for leverage.
FEET Deep, solid and wide, with thick open walls. Coronets should be hard and sinewy with substance.
HAIR Not too much, fine straight and silky.


A good Shire Stallion should stand from 17.0 hands (173 cms) upwards, and weigh from 18 cwt (900 Kg) to 22 cwt (1100 Kg) when matured, without being overdone in condition. He should possess a masculine head and a good crest with sloping, not upright, shoulders running well into the back, which should be short and well coupled with the loins. The tail should be well set up and not what is known as “gooserumped”. Both head and tail should be carried erect. The ribs should be well sprung, not flat sided, with good middle which generally denotes good constitution. A Stallion should have good feet and joints; the feet should be wide and big around the top of the coronets with sufficient length in the pasterns. When in motion, he should go with force using both knees and hocks, which latter should be kept close together, he should go straight and true before and behind.
A good Stallion should have strong character.


MODIFICATION OR VARIATION OF STALLION STANDARD
OF POINTS FOR MARES

COLOUR Black, brown, bay, grey, roan.
HEIGHT 16 hands (163 cms) upwards.HEADLong and lean, neither too large nor too small, long neck in proportion to the body, of feminine appearance.
EYES Large, well set and docile in expression. Wall eyes are acceptable except for animals Grade A and B register.
NECK Long and slightly arched and not of masculine appearance.
GIRTH 5 ft (152 cms) to 7 ft (214 cms) (matured) according to size and age of animal.
BACK Strong and in some instances longer than a male.
LEGS Short, with short cannons.
BONE MEASUREMENT9 (23 cms) to 11 inches (28 cms) of flat bone, with clean cut sinews.
A Mare should be on the quality side, long and deep with free action, of a feminine and matronly appearance, standing from 16 hands (163 cms) and upwards on short legs; she should have plenty of room to carry her foal.

MODIFICATIONS OR VARIATION OF STALLION STANDARD
OF POINTS FOR GELDINGS

COLOUR As for Mares.
HEIGHT 16.2 (168 cms) hands and upwards.
GIRTH From 6 ft (183 cms) to 7 ft 6 ins (229 cms).
BONE MEASUREMENT 10 (23 cms) to 11 inches (26 cms) under knee, slightly more underhock and broadside on, of flat hard quality.
A Gelding should be upstanding, thick, well-balanced, very active and a gay mover; he should be full of courage and should look like and be able to do a full day’s work. Geldings weigh from 17 (850 Kgs) to 22 cwt (1100 Kgs).

[Donella]

Hocks must be broad, deep and flat and set at the correct angle for leverage.

Maybe I am wrong but "leverage" to me means pushing or ability to push. Pushing would make sense considering what they are bred to do. Carrying is totally different and it wouldn't make sense in a draft horse.

Most draft breed have legs that are "camped out behind". You can look up this conformation trait on the internet if you dont beleive me but it is not desireable for dressage because it makes it hard for a horse to step under and CARRY vs PUSH. That is why they are fine at lower levels, because all training level or first level horses are pushing with their hind legs rather than carrying.

I dont want to post pictures of other peoples horses on the net but if you type in clydesdale, shire ect and look at the top horses, they have this "camped out" conformation.

[Ambrey]

Photos can be deceiving, though. A horse that is "posed" for a breed specific purpose, and has been conditioned for a particular discipline, is not going to look the same after dressage training.

I have seen "before" and "after" pics of saddlebreds that don't even look like the same horse. We have a saddleseat trainer at the barn and I'd swear that those horses could NEVER do dressage, but Saddlebred breeders assure me that re-conditioning changes them drastically.

I've seen amazing changes in Lewin's horse, and she only went from hunters to dressage. A horse driven with a check strap and his head held high is going to look a lot different than a horse being ridden in a round frame.

[Bravestrom]

I just don't know how you people can even ride these big draftie and draftie crosses in dressage!

When I turn up the center line to finish my test, I feel like I can barely get my 13.3 pony to make the turn...and I admire everyone who can keep those big horses together! :lol:

I ride two 17hh draft crosses that are 1500 lbs and they have no problems. We have yet to jump out of the ring or knock the fences down so it is possible.;)

[Equibrit]

Photos can be deceiving, though. A horse that is "posed" for a breed specific purpose, and has been conditioned for a particular discipline, is not going to look the same after dressage training.


Dream on! Contrary to your belief - you cannot move bones with dressage training!

Shire Horse of the Year 2007 http://images.newsquest.co.uk/image.php?id=613467&type=full
(not "dressage" hocks)

[Wild Oaks Farm]

I ride two 17hh draft crosses that are 1500 lbs and they have no problems. We have yet to jump out of the ring or knock the fences down so it is possible.;)

:lol::lol: Well then I am definitely the one with the problems!!! Since my pony HAS jumped out of the ring before! :D:D

[Ambrey]

I ride two 17hh draft crosses that are 1500 lbs and they have no problems. We have yet to jump out of the ring or knock the fences down so it is possible.;)

LOL, my big guy (1500-1600 lbs) is very agile! He loves to do crazy stunts in turnout, sliding stops, etc. I always think one day he's just gonna blast through the turnout/arena rail but so far so good ;)

I joke that he shoulda been a reiner :)

[oldschool]

I guess the reason I found this particular draft so intriguing is that he apparantly does not fit the standard printed by a previous poster. He will only grow to 16.2, has Big splashes of white on belly and withers, and is built more like a warmblood than a typical draft. And that is exactly why I think he just may fit the bill for dressage. I will post a photo if the owner lets me and I can figure out how.

[Ambrey]

I am no expert in horse physiology, nor in Shires, but I do know after several months of intensive physical therapy that bones are held together not by screws and bolts, but by tendons and ligaments that stretch and shorten based on use. I would assume that with horses, as with humans, you can reduce the chances for injury by properly conditioning a horse, building the muscles in support of the joints that will be worked hardest and making sure the ligaments don't shorten.

[Equibrit]

Are there any particular dressage exercises you favour that would change the relationship of the bones that make up the hock joint??

[ashmotter]

White on the belly is allowed in the registry...the color is classified as blagdon. However, the splashes on the withers have me stumped:) He sounds lovely and like he would make a great partner for you!

[hundredacres]

I trained my English Shire/TB cross up to pirouette and tempi work and showed up to 3rd level at top rated shows, highest score 65%. She was the love of my life. Not suitable for dressage, really, as she naturally wanted to pull her body across the ground with her front legs. But she tried hard and was willing and eager to please. We never really nailed extensions, but her lateral and canter work was good. Her trot was a spinal cracker for me but better riders could sit her bounce better.

Looking back, I wasn't doing her any favors trying to make her into a dressage horse

I have limited experience here, but did ride a Percheron for a couple years in w/t lessons (she never did get strong enough to canter). The "spinal cracker" is something that people never believed because there seems to be a misconception about that "big" trot of a draft horse - that it's smooth. It ISN'T, is it feis? People were often stunned when I told them that I could feel every bit of that 1850 pounds hammering the ground with every step..."but I heard they're like riding a sofa!"...yes, it's like riding a bouncing sofa down a rocky slope.

And at 5 years old after not more than 8 months of light work with me as her only rider she was diagnosed with ring bone...like feisomeday said - I don't think riding these huge horses in a discipline that they aren't designed for, is in their best interest.

[Equibrit]

White on the belly is allowed in the registry...the color is classified as blagdon.


Definitely Majikal!:rolleyes:

[ashmotter]

Isn't it though:D

[Ambrey]

And at 5 years old after not more than 8 months of light work with me as her only rider she was diagnosed with ring bone...like feisomeday said - I don't think riding these huge horses in a discipline that they aren't designed for, is in their best interest.

The OP stated that it was a light 16.2 hh horse. My horse is 16.3hh, same height as Lewin's.

Maybe you should speak with these people breeding the 17hh+ warmbloods? There's one at my barn who is 17.2hh. He towers over my draft cross.

[lewin]

If you wanted to change that horses hockset Equibrit then you just need to take the trailers off their shoes. It is one of the ways they make them have close hocks like that.

Draft horses do tend to toe out a bit and be close behind (although generally not that close) but from everyone favorite Dr. Clayton:

"In dressage horses," she added, "being a little close in the hindlegs is often a good thing. When the horse is moving, the hock naturally turns inward and the stifle naturally turns outward. This allows the hindleg to clear the horse's barrel. If the hocks are a little more in, this gives the horse more clearance between his stifles and his barrel in the lateral movements."

I do think some of the horses tend to camp out a bit behind. Just like some of the horses have necks that I feel are too short. Those are things I would avoid in dressage horses. Fortunately there are plenty of drafts out there that have neither of those problems. They also do tend to push with their hind end rather than carry, but the carrying has been easy to teach because the thrust is there. Transitions are your friend.

Look for a draft with a natural canter and the desire to go forward. Neck not too short and overall good conformation. A good attitude will help you the rest of the way and make the journey much more pleasureable.

And just because I love this photo. A french Percheron showing off his carrying power:

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/shpf/actualites/actus/2007/cheval%20cabr%E9.jpg

[Ambrey]

And regarding whether drafts/crosses can canter, here's a video of my guy being a nutjob in turnout (PSA- I have the zoom on. I am not standing there while 1600 lbs of momentum gets inches away from me, duh! I was at least 3-4 feet back from the gate.).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmLmQa-duOg

[Cielo Azure]

And because I love my old man, here are his photos having fun.

I sometimes wonder, are teenagers supposed to act like this?

http://www.cieloazure.com/charlesfun.html

I think I may get out there I do some videoing of our Perchs and dressage.

[canticle]

And regarding whether drafts/crosses can canter, here's a video of my guy being a nutjob in turnout (PSA- I have the zoom on. I am not standing there while 1600 lbs of momentum gets inches away from me, duh! I was at least 3-4 feet back from the gate.).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmLmQa-duOg
Wow, what a hunk! :)

[Ambrey]

I think I may get out there I do some videoing of our Perchs and dressage.

I sure wish you would! My guy definitely takes after the perch half of his breeding :)

[oldschool]

You guys are the BOMB!!! These horses are so much cuter and seem to have way more personality than the typical overpriced warmblood. I'm hooked.

[ashmotter]

You guys are the BOMB!!! These horses are so much cuter and seem to have way more personality than the typical overpriced warmblood. I'm hooked.


Amen:D

[RC&W]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/draftx/cathys-vtshow2007009.jpg:

Belgium Draft dad, TB mom

8 yo, 17 hh
Professional Training- $$$
Attitude- Priceless

Does Recog. Dressage, Eventing, Trail Rides....for my AA aspirations/goals he's perfect. First season out last year,(TL, 1st, BN) always in the top spots.

Great training + great attitude + hard work= fun, successful horse!:winkgrin:

[RC&W]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/draftx/cathys-vtshow2007009.jpg


Trying again for picture! sorry!:confused:

[Bravestrom]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/draftx/cathys-vtshow2007009.jpg:

Belgium Draft dad, TB mom

8 yo, 17 hh
Professional Training- $$$
Attitude- Priceless

Does Recog. Dressage, Eventing, Trail Rides....for my AA aspirations/goals he's perfect. First season out last year,(TL, 1st, BN) always in the top spots.

Great training + great attitude + hard work= fun, successful horse!:winkgrin:


He looks awesome and a lot like mine - here is a link to her - she is 6 and belgian tb - although she is my alpha mare - she is really sweet with me.

http://www.hotelfun4kids.com/images/horses/asper.jpg

[hundredacres]

The OP stated that it was a light 16.2 hh horse. My horse is 16.3hh, same height as Lewin's.

Maybe you should speak with these people breeding the 17hh+ warmbloods? There's one at my barn who is 17.2hh. He towers over my draft cross.

I realized that. The general rule though, when speaking of "drafts" we are talking larger horses in general. That is what I was getting at. No need to get upset. In general, drafts - as in the typical 17h and up, massive animal used for draft purposes, they are not going to fare well in rigorous dressage workouts. There is always the exception, but physiologically, it's not a good match. Which is why 300 pound men typically do shot-put and not track and field.

[pintopiaffe]

I find it interesting the need of some to 'attack' anything that is different than what they have or do. I've ridden QHs, APHAs, Fjords and Arabs in dressage. In each breed, I found *an individual* who was quite exceptional. Had they had a better rider (rather than ME who does is for love) they would have gone very far. I've seen a couple of them under a great rider, and they were amazing. I've brought some to 2nd level, but never made it past the 2nd level ceiling (until now--knocking wood madly) because of ME, not them.

Few horses have Olympic/WEG attributes. A few more can do FEI levels internationally. A *LOT* more than that can do the movements, correctly. Perhaps not flashy, but CORRECT. Correct enough even to score competitively, provided they have the MIND AND TEMPERAMENT to do well at shows.

Temperament will get an amateur's horse sooo much further than flashy gaits and fancy bloodlines.

I'm not saying it might not be easier for some horses--but it's the INDIVIDUAL. Of course if a breed has been purpose bred for a couple of decades or more, there are more likely to be more individuals who are suited to the discipline...

But that doesn't mean there cannot be exceptional individuals out there who mightn't conform to *your* idea of what is perfect.

I've known some very fancy draft crosses. A friend breeds Spanish Normans. Her percheron mares are to DIE for. Beautiful movers, whose hocks come well under, free in the shoulder, lovely necks and stunning heads. Of course, they were chosen for all that, and are complimented by a PRE stallion. The offspring are amazingly athletic, sane, sound and healthy.

There is a super cute full draft perchie mare at a barn I teach at. She is a very nice mover, and I expect she'll get to 2nd no trouble. May not have the real strength or sit for collection, but it's hard to say, really, until she gets stronger. Very pure gaits. Light and forward.

Just because some drafts would be horrible in dressage doesn't mean a couple mightn't be brilliant.

[hundredacres]

If you were referring to my post - I am hardly "attacking something that is different". I am commenting on the fact that draft breeds *may* not hold up as well as a lighter breed to a strenuous workout. Again - there's always the exception and in that case it still doesn't change the fact that draft horses are not bred for dressage, barrel racing, etc., etc. It's a matter of physics. As lovely as they are - I hate to see them break down just like I hate to see badly bred TB's break down, QH's with itty-bitty leg bones with leg problems, any horse experiencing road founder (because most horses aren't bred for running on asphalt) - get the idea? It has nothing to do with the the discipline, it has to do with what their comformationally suitable for.

I'm 130 pounds. Sumo-wrestling isn't in my future. If people laughed at me for trying, I'd hardly accuse them of "attacking something different"....I may get hurt and maybe sumo wrestling isn't for people with my, er, conformation. ;).

[Ambrey]

It's a matter of physics. As lovely as they are - I hate to see them break down just like I hate to see badly bred TB's break down, QH's with itty-bitty leg bones with leg problems, any horse experiencing road founder (because most horses aren't bred for running on asphalt) - get the idea? It has nothing to do with the the discipline, it has to do with what their comformationally suitable for.

But if physics were the issue, that wouldn't be so either. True drafts have the extra weight, it's true- but they have the bone and hooves to manage it as well.

A 1400 lb halter bred QH with tiny little hooves is not the same as a 1400 lb percheron with hooves the size of turkey platters and cannon bones to match! They were bred to seriously do the job.

If some break down, I'd call that poor breeding, as much as I consider it poor breeding when QHs break down because their bulk isn't matched by the supporting structure. I don't know as much about the Perch breeding process as Lewin and Cielo Azure do, but I do know that there are good and bad percherons as much as there are good and bad anything else, and there are different types within the breed- just as with quarter horses you have racing lines, cow lines, halter lines, HUS lines, etc.

I am betting that you could look at the breeding of a particular percheron and make a pretty good guess as to how it would do in dressage (and I still want to see videos of Cielo Azure's!).

[Lambie Boat]

RC&W and Prodomus, thank you for pictures of your beautiful horses. I LOFF THEM! more power to you ~ have a blast out there

[TropicalStorm]

woops. double posted

[Kathy Johnson]

Here is something I've never seen before. He seems to have something for everyone!

http://www.gypsyhorsesource.com/uk14/dudley.htm

[Ambrey]

Here is something I've never seen before. He seems to have something for everyone!

http://www.gypsyhorsesource.com/uk14/dudley.htm


LOL, when I was shopping for a horse for my daughter, a friend gave me that link knowing how I love spots. He is so cute!

[Heinz 57]

I've been following this thread with some interest, seeing as I just bought a draft x TB.

He is a little on the heavier side, but as a package, has what I would call a more TB-type body, on light draft-type legs and feet. TB neck, drafty head (well, you can't have EVERYTHING, can you?). I'll warn you, he's VERY unkempt looking and for those eagle eyes, he has a bad crack in that RH foot.

seen here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/erin7264/100_1804-1.jpg

I wish I had some actual conformation shots of him standing square...he presents a much nicer picture. In that photo, he looks small - in reality, he is a good 16.2+ and substantial. The following photo shows the amount of bone he has, but as opposed to the above, actually makes him look a bit stocky and VERY long backed (thank you, camera angle!). He still has winter hair on his legs, and is much leggier in person.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/erin7264/100_1810.jpg

I have no clue what sort of draft blood he has. I'm not naive enough to really think that he's going to be some great FEI dressage horse, but mostly because that is not and probably will never be my aspiration. My aspirations lie more in eventing, and as much as I do dearly love dressage, would be happy at 2nd/3rd level. I think he will make a nice prelim horse, if not more. Hell, maybe we'll even venture over to hunterland if he's got the knees for it!

He has great presence - but without the earth-shaking, heavy footed gaits and knee action you sometimes get with draft blood. He's a big, powerful, fancy mover. "Bold" is an excellent descriptor of his movement, but with a very low-key personality. If such a type existed, he would make a nice heavy hunter.

Carry on!

[FancyFree]

I like your pink halter bearcombs. :)

[Heinz 57]

Ha! poor guy. I'm hoping I can bring him home tomorrow, and you can bet the pink halter won't last long. For one thing, it doesn't fit his big ol' head - the tie at the poll just barely tied - only the little metal tip on the rope sticks out of the knot.

I was perusing Quillin's the other day, but didn't want to buy anything until I can measure his head.

[Ambrey]

Ha! poor guy. I'm hoping I can bring him home tomorrow, and you can bet the pink halter won't last long. For one thing, it doesn't fit his big ol' head - the tie at the poll just barely tied - only the little metal tip on the rope sticks out of the knot.

I was perusing Quillin's the other day, but didn't want to buy anything until I can measure his head.

Buying new tack is fun :) My horse wears a large horse/WB size halter, but he's on the small side comparatively (16.3hh) and doesn't quite have the percheron head to body ratio.

He's really cute! I think my horse would love eventing, unfortunately he bought himself a chicken rider who doesn't jump!

[sunnycher]

I have 2 draft crosses now, shire cross mare, who does everything, novice eventing, will move up to training, training level dressage (just because I don't pursue it much), trail, foxhunting, h/j.

She will be 9 this year, and her canter has been slow to develop. Her conf. is 'cross' heavy - if that makes sense. She is 16.1, and lighter in front, than behind.

Not too sure how to post a picture, but she is soooo cool, everywhere I go, people try to buy her, seriously. I was in 2 h/j clinics this past winter, and both clinicians LOVED her.

My second is a 4 y.o 3/4 TB, 1/4 Perch. Chestnut, big blaze - 2 high back socks, and very nice. Very different than my mare. We'll see, he's off to the trainer's now.

I don't mean to be unkind, but this discussion strikes me as rather funny. The friends I have who ride only 'dressage' will NEVER get to upper levels of the sport no matter what horse they ride. Some diamonds in the rough (draft crosses, TB, WB, etc) will never amount to upper level horses because their riders cannot take them there.

If you check out the eventing board with all the hula-baloo going on re safety, deaths, ULR, etc., the bulk of the sport is supported by lower level riders. Sure, we all aspire to be the best we can be, but the truth is that very few people, let alone horses are "conformationally, emotionally, financially, politically" correct to get there.

My hat is off to any and all who get up off the couch, no matter your age, and give it a go. I don't care if you ride a stick horse, at least we are pursuing our passion, and to each his own!!! Happy trails, gina

[canticle]

I'm still waiting for evidence of all the broken-down draft horses, unsung victims of dressage! The ones I know tend to be pretty sound, and dressage has only helped them. Why the unfounded speculation about drafts when there are horses already accepted in the dressage community with known soundness issues? Why do we let them slide, but then create problems where there are none?

So far none of the doomsday prophecies surrounding draft horses have come true. They hold up as well as any other breed or type of horse. Their riders are having a blast, and everyone is happy. Good luck convincing them that they have made a mistake! ;)

[Donella]

I find it almost funny how stating an opinion and using logic to support that opinion WHEN ASKED FOR IT is turned into "attacking".

I ride an off breed for the hundred millionth time. But that doesn't mean I am clued out as to what constitutes functional/ideal conformation in regards to upper level sport horses. She asked for the opinion...we gave it. Nobody is attacking anyone...we are simply having a discussion about form and it's relation to function...at least that is what I was doing.

[NoDQhere]

Well you know, Donella, if you don't tell people what they want to hear, you must be attacking them :lol:

For the record, there is a HUGE (pardon the pun) difference in the SHAPE of a Warmblood and a Draft / draft cross, regardless of size.

[Bravestrom]

For the record, there is a HUGE (pardon the pun) difference in the SHAPE of a Warmblood and a Draft / draft cross, regardless of size.


Really!!! I have a clyde hackneycross that I can't tell you how many people have thought is a dutch warmblood. There is not always a great difference.

And, if you don't like drafts in dressage thats fine but why would you all keep trying to dissaude people so vehemently, if not to attack.

[Ambrey]

I find it almost funny how stating an opinion and using logic to support that opinion WHEN ASKED FOR IT is turned into "attacking".

Donella, I can't speak for others but I didn't see you as attacking.

I think in a thread like this, it's hard to see what part of the discussion is annoying people and what part is just discussion. I do not agree with your assessment of drafts and dressage, just based on what I know, but the part of the thread that annoyed me were the snarky one-liners, not the considered opinions.

I do think saying "for the most part, drafts are not really built in a way that is suitable for dressage" is a much different message than "don't even try it, you'll just make the horse go lame." One message advises caution, the other is just dismissive and untrue for quite a few drafts out there.

And I agree with the poster who said most of us will never know whether our horse "could" get to GP, or how well it would do, through no fault of the horse ;) I think for a lot of us, when we say "upper levels," we're talking about more the 4th/PSG/maybe schooling some upper level moves.

I can't speak for the OP, but when I bought my horse I never expected to get past 1st, so the talent he has shown has been wonderful- if he continues at this rate he'll fly through 1st in no time (whether I'll catch up is another matter!). After that, it's all icing on the cake. But on the other hand, my trainer says "never say never." Put your eye on the prize and go for it!

[Donella]

Ambrey,
Thanks for the post.
I agree with you on this...you never know right and as long as you are sensitive to how well the horse is handling it, all should be fine. Actually, my friesian mare is a good example of this. My trainer thinks the horse will likely breakdown past 2nd level. Yet I had a well known trainer and clinician come out a few weeks ago and she was fanatical about the horse, told me she had "8" gaits and "has what it takes". I just have to be really sensitive about it..if the work becomes hard at all..I will stop and be happy with how far we have gotten.

I was speaking in generalities..that is all.

[slc2]

Whenever anyone suggests any breed or type may have limitations in dressage, the hackles sure go up and people get VERY defensive, and the insults fly. They only don't win because of fads, judging is subjective and rides on fashion, etc etc.

Dressage is unusual in this sense that there are so many enthusiasts that will argue that any horse can excel at any level. I think it's wishful thinking to even suggest that all individuals of ANY breed can excell at all levels of any sport competition.

However, alot of denial goes into these arguments about how suitable draft horses are to any dressage endeavor. Fact is, even long before warmbloods came here and Thb's were the breed of choice for dressage in America, there were still very few draft horses excelling at the top levels. Even when the American cavalry provided purpose bred horses to their dressage team, they were lightly built saddle horses.

There is a reason there are draft horses and they are different from saddle horses. Draft horses were developed for pulling at low speeds. Their heavy bodies and legs are designed for pulling. Their hindquarters, back, shoulder and neck are conformed to be optimal for pulling. Their gaits were not developed to be those of sport horse type. Recently, with more emphasis on draft shows a 'hitchy' trot is preferred, but it is still different from the trot of a saddle horse.

At the same time, drafts and draft crosses HAVE proven that it is very possible for individuals of these types to do 'well' in dressage. Since most riders never ride at the upper levels, and since many compete little or not at all, 'well' is usually defined as being a pleasant, obedient companion and family horse. There are DEFINITELY individuals who have even done better at higher levels. SOME, a very few, have even done 'well' at showing at the FEI levels.

Warmbloods are not a mix of 'draft' and 'thb' or arab blood. Draft horses - heavy clydesdale, Percheron, Belgian, Ardennes, etc, were never used to develop them. There were, however, stronger built horses used in developing them - coaching and lighter types of horses.

"Warmblood" is not the term for any mixed breed horse. Before warmbloods were imported to America, these horses were called 'Draft crosses', 'Thoroughbred crosses' or 'Saddlebred crosses', not 'warmbloods'. They only got that name when warmbloods started to be sold here and threatened the marketing of cross bred horses. There are a number of European warmblood registries, and some American warmblood registries, not all are created equal, either. One American registry president informed me enthusiastically that they were licensing very poor quality mares because 'We have to build up the size of our registry'. The warmblood registry concept is based on examining, testing, licensing and rewarding animals that are successful in four sport horse events governed by the FEI - jumping, dressage, driving and to a lesser extent, eventing.

We make the mistake of thinking of there always having been ONLY two types of horses - very heavy and very light saddle horses. This is just not true. There were many intermediate types of agricultural and military animals all with different characteristics and types and different degrees of massiveness. There were also the ride and drive types such as several breeds in Holland that helped to refine warmbloods and figured strongly in their development. Even the Trakehner was developed with the help of a local type, the Schweiken, and refined and further developed.

These were used to develop warmbloods, and Thb and Arab blood has been put into warmblood pedigrees ever since warmbloods began. The warmblood is actually just a development and a refinement of a type that had already existed long before the modern warmblood registries began. Bennet suggested a prehistoric 'proto warmblood', and not too many other researchers support her in that. In fact I haven't found anyone else who backs the idea that her research on primitive equine skulls proves that.

There has never been a draft or heavier carriage breed horse that went to the world championships or the Olympics, to any major European competition. They are not represented in world class competition in noticeable numbers and have never been represented, regardless of which breed was popular at the time.

It is true that 'the average warmblood' does ALSO not go to the Olympics or World Championships. But also, the 'average quarter horse' does not go to the World Championships in reining, or cutting. This does not prove that the sport horse type is unsuitable for dressage any more than it proves that quarter horse types are unsuitable for cutting or reining.

There is a general refusal in these debates to define 'what sort of dressage' a horse is 'suitable' for. Almost any horse can give an owner a lot of fun at the occasional local shows. But I agree with others who express doubt that putting a heavy horse into what may be years of very rigorous sport horse training is wise.

I agree that not EVERY heavy horse goes lame when put into dressage work, especially when it's done very casually and slowly with the goal of reaching a lower level.

Unfortunately, I will not be able to that taking a heavy horse up the sport level ranks is without problems. I will not agree that NONE go lame when an owner tries to take them up the levels. Sorry, but a rather too high percentage of them DO go lame and have to be retired.

In some cases, I think they stay ok because their owners simply did NOT put them in a rigorous demanding program and because they bring the horses along slowly and are very very cautious. The Shire I showed with was showing at 2nd level at the age of 9, not at PSG, and the trainer told me he would refuse to work with the horse at the point when he felt it would be 'too much for him'.

It is (well, was, it will probably evaporate as a possiblity with qualification) very possible to work a horse quite lightly, teach him 'the tricks' and show him lightly locally up thru the levels - and easily win many awards at the 'all breed' level where there is little world class competition..without demanding much of him.

[FancyFree]

Excellent post slc.

[Lambie Boat]

yes, slc, you are correct. the challenge of training a draft for dressage past 1st level is changing the PULL into a PUSH. It's not easy, it's not what the horse is built for......but it's not impossible.

the question is: do you really want to get in the saddle every day and bang your head against the same walls, the same issues and ride until sweat drips from your nose for 50 minutes to get 4 or 6 good steps of collection, a few strides of sit, half circle of correct tracking up forward (never mind extension, good luck with that) on and on. When you get a certain age and look back to the energy you pour into one or two horses.......well, Cindy Sydnor wrote about this recently, but try to tell a 20 year old anything about her choices.

as I mentioned before, I rode/trained a Shire/TB cross 14 years and loved her to death. But now, I have a horse that is bred for the work. This mare shows more of everything, naturally, on the lunge and first time under saddle than my draftie did after years of training. Good thing too, because I'm old and tired now. Don't have the stamina, drive, strength, self-motivation to try to train a draft horse again. It's really, really hard. And for those of you who say a better rider could do it better, you're right. I'm not "ALL THAT". But my trainer IS!

[Ambrey]

One issue I have with the above post, SLC, is that by lumping all of the drafts together, you're perpetuating exactly the dichotomous thinking you're railing against. Percherons were not one of the "heavy" pulling breeds, and has been bred since the 8th century to be a versatile horse.

From http://www.percheron.ca/history.htm


Around the Middle Ages Spanish blood was introduced by the Comte de Perche and later the Comte de Rotrou imported Andalusian stallions, which were used on the Percheron mares. In the 18th century, Arabs and the new English Thoroughbreds were also imported and used. The Royal Stud at Le Pin made Arabian stallions available to breeders of Percheron horses in an effort to improve the breed. In 1820, two gray Arab stallions were imported into the Le Perche area and used extensively on the existing stock, and it is from these two that the present day gray colour on the Percheron stems. In 1823, a horse named Jean Le Blanc was foaled in Le Perche and all of today's Percheron bloodlines trace directly to this horse.


and


The Percheron is noted for its equable temperament, its intelligence, ease of handling and willingness to work. It is an elegant heavy horse due to the infusions for the Oriental-type blood throughout the centuries. Despite their great size, Percherons are active, showy and easy movers. Their stride is not as choppy as that of other heavy horses. Its action is stylish, long, free and comparatively low.


From the Wikipedia page on Hanoverians (feel free to argue if it's innacurate, I am only using it as a reference)


The Hanoverian is said to have descended from the warhorse of the Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_the_Middle_Ages). In 1735, George II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_II_of_Great_Britain), the King of England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) and Elector of Hanover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanover), founded the state stud at Celle. He began a breeding program for horses for use in agriculture and work in carriages. Selected stallions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stallion), many privately owned, were available to the local farmers for breeding. The bigger of the local mares (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_%28horse%29) were refined with Holsteins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holstein_%28horse%29), Thoroughbreds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoroughbred) and Cleveland Bays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Bay), and later some Neapolitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_horse), Andalusian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_horse), Prussian, and Mecklenburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mecklenburger_%28horse%29&action=edit&redlink=1) stock. By the end of the 18th century, the Hanoverian had become a high-class coach horse.


So you can see that the origins are not so different. The Hanoverian was also initially a pulling horse, but has been bred more recently for sporthorse purposes- and some people are doing the same with Percherons. But the idea that the origins of the breeds make them fundamentally different is, I think, inaccurate. The differences are in more recent breeding programs.

[Ambrey]

as I mentioned before, I rode/trained a Shire/TB cross 14 years and loved her to death. But now, I have a horse that is bred for the work. This mare shows more of everything, naturally, on the lunge and first time under saddle than my draftie did after years of training. Good thing too, because I'm old and tired now. Don't have the stamina, drive, strength, self-motivation to try to train a draft horse again. It's really, really hard. And for those of you who say a better rider could do it better, you're right. I'm not "ALL THAT". But my trainer IS!

This is why I think it's so dependent on the individual horse. But if you're shopping for a dressage horse on a tight budget, you're going to have that issue anyway aren't you?

I know Cindy said take out a loan and buy a better horse, but I was damned lucky to get the one I got without my husband leaving me ;) Luckily, for me dressage was just something I kind of fell in love with, not an all-consuming goal for my riding, so getting that perfect horse was never an issue. I was much more focused on getting a horse I could have a relationship with and enjoy over the long term.

And I can only say what my trainer says about my horse- that he's not what he expected, he's much lighter on his feet than he looks like he'd be, and he's very smart and willing and picks things up quickly. And maybe I got really lucky and got that "one in a million" horse, but Lewin's girl seems pretty similar so I have to think there are others out there, if you look for them.

As for why I'd want to beat my head against the wall- I'm pretty sure that this dressage learning thing is going to take more patience on his part than mine ;) So not an issue, your horses would be wasted on me. Be glad you got them!

[Equibrit]

Percherons were not one of the "heavy" pulling breeds, and has been bred since the 8th century to be a versatile horse.



Now you're pushing the bounds of reason and entering the realm of fantasy!

[slc2]

THe origins are not so different? They are as different as different could be.

I will never understand WHY people have to do this with different breeds, try to make them all the same, obliterate their characteristics for the sake of being 'better than' someone else. Keepin' up with the Joneses!

Look at this gorgeous animal. Why does it have to be 'better' than anything else? Look at this sweatheart and how patient she is with her rider.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8JtyK_fYSs

I most emphatically did not lump all drafts together. I can only conclude that you must not have read what I wrote.

At the same time, I feel the history you quote dones't prove anything. Especially not that Percherons were a riding type horse because 2 Arab stallions were at one time brought in to a couple stud farms. Yes, some Arab blood was brought in, that's why Percherons are often so gorgeous around the head and have the grey color. In fact, at different points in history, Arabs, Thoroughbreds and Andalusian type horses were bred into just about every breed in existence.

They STILL do not resemble, and never have resembled, in general body type, size and mass, an Arabian horse.

A war horse? Ridden? Try to put one in the armor of the knights, even pre ceremonial jousting, even INCLUDING ceremonial jousting armor. You cannot. It will not fit.

It was used then for the same thing it's used traditionally for now - heavy draft. The horses that fit the medieval armor were nowhere near the Percheron's mass and heft. They were nowhere near the height nor the mass of the modern draft heavyweights.

They were stronger built horses, of course, and they trotted. But they were not Percheron like - not at all. This is a very popular thing to say these days, but has no truth in it at all. Read Barclay instead of the usual 'horse books'.

Heavy large drafts were mostly not ridden - they pulled heavy wagons and ploughs, and have since the time of the early Romans, who described seeing heavy horses in the Low Countries and commented on their suitability - for heavy draft. The very heavy large horses were developed for one purpose - for heavy draft on 'heavy' soils. The low countries, parts of England. In other areas, such as Eastern Europe, much more agricultural work was done with lighter horses, even ploughing. Many farmers could not afford to feed the heaviest, largest draft horses.

Draft horses, as well as all breeds of horses, do vary. Some percherons (or any draft breed) are less typical and follow their own breed standard and preferred traits much less than desired. I can find 15.1 1/2 hand Percheron stallions and 16.3 hand Percheron stallions. In that case the 15.1 1/2 hand stallion was as broad as a bus and weighed more than the tall one, lol, which was 'hitchier', taller and slimmer. I can find very tall narrow Clydesdales and very massive broad ones. Yet, I still find a general consistency with the way them move, whether they pick their knees up a little more or a little less.

Likewise, draft crosses can be bewilderingly different. Even the same sire and dam can give very different offspring.

That's the beauty of cross breeds - there is a lot of diversity among them and a person can pick and choose the type they like.

I can't agree with feisomeday totally either - that trying to train ANY draft or draft cross is 'beating my head against a wall'. I think quite a few of them bring a lot of pleasure to many owners. It depends on the person's goals and requirements.

I will continue to believe what experience has taught me over many years thru my own mistakes and other's mistakes, to choose the job for the horse, not the horse for the job.

[Donella]

Excellent posts SLC, I agree wholeheartedly.

Not only that, I feel like I am qualified to say this because I am not biased here. I have two draft crosses AND I breed friesians and Hanoverians. I really don't "dislike" or want to "attack" any of these breeds, and I do understand all of them fairly well.

The Hanoverian was never developed from a coldblooded draft breed. There is a world of difference between a "carriage" horse and a draft breed. A good example of this is the friesian. They are not coldblooded heavy pulling horses..they are a carriage/coach breed. This is the TYPE that was used to first start the Hanoverian and other wb breeds (for Dutch it was the Gelderlander..heavier, but certainly not a draft horse).

I was just reading about the influence of Absatz in Hanoverian breeding in the Verbands month mag and they had pictures of the typical hanoverian of pre 1950's and they looked about the same bone as a Gelderlander. They were big, strong horses BUT they were by no means draft horses..they still looked like saddle horses. They were used for many purposes, including sunday work on the farm, but again, not heavy pulling horses.

The amount of selection that has gone into turning the breed from a "mans cavalry mount" into a world class dressage/jumping horses has been significant over the last 50 years. Selected refining blood from Trakehner, tb and arabian was used. The Hanoverian of today is seriously different from the cavalry horse of the pre 50s AND YET even then it was STILL a saddle/light coach horse.

There really is no similiarity in the evolution of the Hanoverian breed and that of the "lighter percheron" or any other draft breed.

I can see if you want to take your drafty as far as it can go in dressage, but to tell yourself that they are really the same in evolution or conformation as todays modern sporthorse is just delusional.

[lewin]

[QUOTE=slc2;3143441]
A war horse? Ridden? Try to put one in the armor of the knights, even pre ceremonial jousting, even INCLUDING ceremonial jousting armor. You cannot. It will not fit.

[QUOTE]

I have never tried it, but I am quite sure the horses have changed quite a bit over that many centuries. A few 100 generations will do that to a breed. But there were always two types: Heavy pulling horses and diligence trotters. The lighter style trotting horses greatly decreased in numbers post WW2 as cars replaced them in the cities and the Amish kept the heavier ones for farming. The draft breeds have split into two types again and there are now "hitch" or modern drafts and working horses.

I have read quite a few different breed books. The older ones talk about the diligence horses or one book I have talks about the smaller, lighter "Percheron Postier".

Not every draft is suited for dressage but some of them are and they bring with them a different group of qualities to the table which often makes them more suitable as a dressage mount for some riders. Not all, but some.

[Equibrit]

The Percheron Horse originated in the area known as "Le Perche" in the north west of France. Here in 732 A.D. Arabian Horses abandoned by Moors after their defeat in the Battle of Tours were crossed with the massive Flemish stock and from this cross came the Percheron type which has endured for twelve centuries.
During the Crusades, further infusion of Arab blood was made; Arab sires procured in the Holy Land were bred to the Percheron. In the early 1800's the French Government's Stud at La Pin introduced further Arab blood into the Percheron breed by covering selected mares with two outstanding Arab sires. Now all contemporary Percheron's share this common heritage descending from the foundation stock that originated in Le Perche.
The Percheron Horse Society of France was founded in 1883, to safeguard the breeding of pure stock and from this small district of Le Perche. Pure-bred breeding stock has been exported all over the world with each nation except U.S.S.R., having an official Breed Association to ensure the preservation of the pure-bred Percheron, and so the Percheron Horse remains genetically pure with registered animals.

[FancyFree]

I will never understand WHY people have to do this with different breeds, try to make them all the same, obliterate their characteristics for the sake of being 'better than' someone else. Keepin' up with the Joneses!

This is really the heart of the matter, in a nutshell, isn't it?

[canticle]

the question is: do you really want to get in the saddle every day and bang your head against the same walls, the same issues and ride until sweat drips from your nose for 50 minutes to get 4 or 6 good steps of collection, a few strides of sit, half circle of correct tracking up forward (never mind extension, good luck with that) on and on. When you get a certain age and look back to the energy you pour into one or two horses.......well, Cindy Sydnor wrote about this recently, but try to tell a 20 year old anything about her choices.
Sorry you had a bad experience, but what do you suggest? For many people, owning a WB would be like banging their head against a wall. Honestly, I would feel like I was wasting my time. I would know that I am depriving myself of something better. Sorry, but I don't want that at all.

You're just going to have to accept that some people are genuinely happy with their choices. Why the desire to convince them that they made a mistake and should be riding something else? Why try to scare them into thinking that they are harming their horses? It's impossible for me to have any respect for the Sydnors of the world, just as I have no respect for the religious fundamentalists who feel it is their duty to "save" me. At the root of the desire to change others is CONTEMPT for them.:no:

[Ambrey]

They were stronger built horses, of course, and they trotted. But they were not Percheron like - not at all. This is a very popular thing to say these days, but has no truth in it at all. Read Barclay instead of the usual 'horse books'.


Define "Percheron-Like?" The Percheron you are thinking of is a development of the last 150 years or so (about the same time as the Hanoverian you are thinking about, I guess). In fact, a lot of the "bulking up" of the Percheron occurred in the US (as they were so popular here as a farm horse).

Every history I have seen of the Percheron says the same thing. The history of this old breed is not an unknown. The breed changed as the need changed in the region in which it was bred. From war horse to coach horse and, only recently, draft horse.

Lewin, you know the study that the book you gave me talks about, the one that discounts the story of the two arabs? It's online! Really cool reading :)

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=36QCAAAAYAAJ&dq=percheron+horse+history&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=ZKi9FvIv65&sig=b7xqtNxXlfXqqUwP_Wtlzh_xA6I#PPA1,M1

Anyway, shifting the Percheron from a lighter coach type to a heavier draft type seems to have happened in the 1800s. There are still some of the lighter types out there, clearly :)

eta: Who is trying to make anything better than anything else? I think all Lewin and I have been asking is that the Percheron, and other drafts, be allowed to be what they are. Appreciate them for what they have to give, allow people who really like what these breeds offer to ride them, and even do dressage if that's what they want :)

[FancyFree]

Why the desire to convince them that they made a mistake and should be riding something else?

I don't see where anyone is trying to do that. The OP's question was can Shires do upper levels? Generally, no. I'm sure there is the exception out there. There's an exception for almost everything. That's all anyone has been saying. Generally speaking, a draft or draft cross is not a good choice to do upper level work. If your goal is to ride upper level dressage, you would be better off with a breed more suitable. They're not conformationally meant for this work, again generally speaking. People can stamp their feet all the live long day and say it isn't so, that won't change a thing. WBs dominate the upper levels for a reason. If drafts were the best choice, they would. But if you are happy with your horse, more power to you. :)

[Cielo Azure]

The Percheron Horse originated in the area known as "Le Perche" in the north west of France. Here in 732 A.D. Arabian Horses abandoned by Moors after their defeat in the Battle of Tours were crossed with the massive Flemish stock and from this cross came the Percheron type which has endured for twelve centuries.
During the Crusades, further infusion of Arab blood was made; Arab sires procured in the Holy Land were bred to the Percheron. In the early 1800's the French Government's Stud at La Pin introduced further Arab blood into the Percheron breed by covering selected mares with two outstanding Arab sires. Now all contemporary Percheron's share this common heritage descending from the foundation stock that originated in Le Perche.
The Percheron Horse Society of France was founded in 1883, to safeguard the breeding of pure stock and from this small district of Le Perche. Pure-bred breeding stock has been exported all over the world with each nation except U.S.S.R., having an official Breed Association to ensure the preservation of the pure-bred Percheron, and so the Percheron Horse remains genetically pure with registered animals.

Prior to 1883, the Government stud at Haras du Pin kept all the stud records. All breedings in Le Perche had to be approved and government studs were used. Records were kept back at least as far back as 1803. The Percheron Horse Society of France was established in 1883, but this is not the start of the breed. By no means at all. Prior to that, the Gov controlled it all. And prior to that? Remember that prior to the revolution (1799), the King was in charge and that all ended (and by some accounts a recalibration of the gov stud records occurred at that time). Were these earlier records (prior to 1803) recorded? I don't know. But the Perche Breed records were kept by the Gov up until 1883 and then turned over to the Society. Although, still today, the Gov has a big hand in the breedings and the breed in France (including re-writing the standard to include meat animals after WW11).

It has been well established the blood that was infused into the breed in the 1820s were not Arabs but a "barb" and a saddle horse. There was no Arab blood infused in the 1820s. There have been many, many other horses infused into the French lines but none have provided the controversy that the two "Arab" horses had. It started with the MC Weld book of 1886, which he wrongly interpreted the Gov. stud writings and the myth has been carried on since then. The 1917 Sanders book spends pages and pages on how false the Weld claims were and there are copies of the government stud book pages dating 1813 and 1819 (see pages 61 & 62) to support their counter claims in the 1917 book.

These were the supposed "Arab" horses and here is their descriptions (FROM THE GOV STUD BOOKS OF THE EARLY 1800s):

(from the Gov stud books of 1813). "Gallipoly, Turk; light speckled gray; height 1 meter, 50 cm: classification, saddle horse: sire, a Turk; dam, a Turk; born 1803; entered haras Nov 23, 1812. By whom bought: sent by the Minister. Observations: good blood horse."

"No. 20. Godophin; born 1802; height 1 meter, 54 cm. (about 15.1 hands); from the stable of Count de Maulke, Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Observations: good horse, but marked at the croup M.; inferior to the preceding horse in the list (also a Mecklenburg-Strelitz horse). Sire: Mock Doctor, English blood horse; Dam: Unknown English mare. When entered: 12 July 1807. Description: Saddle horse."

[Ambrey]

It has been well established the blood that was infused into the breed in the 1820s were not Arabs but a "barb" and a saddle horse. There was no Arab blood infused in the 1820s. There have been many, many other horses infused into the French lines but none have provided the controversy that the two "Arab" horses had. It started with the MC Weld book of 1886, which he wrongly interpreted the Gov. stud writings and the myth has been carried on since then. The 1917 Sanders book spends pages and pages on how false the Weld claims were and there are copies of the government stud book pages dating 1813 and 1819 (see pages 61 & 62) to support their counter claims in the 1917 book.


I did find that interesting, although another book I read basically said the point is moot because Arab blood is a part of the Percheron, although the particular story of the two horses is untrue (or probably untrue).

But anyway, the discussion has prompted me to read quite a few things I mightn't have read otherwise!

[Donella]

Sorry you had a bad experience, but what do you suggest? For many people, owning a WB would be like banging their head against a wall. Honestly, I would feel like I was wasting my time. I would know that I am depriving myself of something better

You are TOTALLY missing the point here. TOTALLY. Just try and open your mind to what is being said instead of taking everything as an insult to your breed. Nobody is trying to convince someone that they should own a warmblood, but we are addressing the original question.

What the poster was saying is that if you try and do something your horse is not built for...the horse will struggle and you will get frustrated. If I wanted to win a heavy pull contest with my hanoverian..I am probably setting myself up for some serious head banging. If I want to win a cutting competition with my friesian..same thing. FACT is that they are not built for this and they will struggle. This is a fact...most people can figure this out without having to go out and do it. If you try to do FEI level dressage CORRECTLY with a horse not built for it, you WILL be frustrated and you WILL harm your horse at some piont wether it be mental or physical. Dont beleive us..go ask your nearest equine vet...100 bucks she/he will agree.

You just dont get it. If I went on to the racing forum and asked people if I could win a mile race with my 3 yr old hanoverian...what do you think they would say? And why do you think they would say this? Because they hate hanoverians..because they want to attack my breed? NOOOOO! HELLOO....because Hanoverians are not built to do this and YES, it would be a waste of time. And I sure as hell would not be insulted if I asked a question like that and it was answered realistically (even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear or it bursted my little lala land dream bubble).

[Duramax]

There's always someone in the barn who wants to show everyone and make it to grand prix with their twh/hackney/paso fino cross. But, you have to wonder if it's really fair to the horse to perform at a task that they really weren't bred to do.

The same could be said about a Thoroughbred...

[canticle]

What the poster was saying is that if you try and do something your horse is not built for...the horse will struggle and you will get frustrated. If I wanted to win a heavy pull contest with my hanoverian..I am probably setting myself up for some serious head banging. If I want to win a cutting competition with my friesian..same thing. FACT is that they are not built for this and they will struggle. This is a fact...most people can figure this out without having to go out and do it. If you try to do FEI level dressage CORRECTLY with a horse not built for it, you WILL be frustrated and you WILL harm your horse at some piont wether it be mental or physical. Dont beleive us..go ask your nearest equine vet...100 bucks she/he will agree.
Let's face it: anyone asking about draft horse suitability for dressage will not be winning at the FEI level on ANY horse. In this lifetime at least. But to say that correct dressage training WILL cause physical and mental harm to a draft horse is flat out wrong. So far it is just scare tactics, and conveniently ignoring the counterexamples. Meanwhile WBs are not even known for soundness, so how do you reconcile that with your argument that they are built for it? One could say that riding ANYTHING other than a classical Baroque horse is bucking the trend. But if everyone is happy, what is the problem?

If drafts really are so unsuited to dressage, what do you care? Worst case scenario is that you lose to one, right? :D

[FancyFree]

You just dont get it. If I went on to the racing forum and asked people if I could win a mile race with my 3 yr old hanoverian...what do you think they would say? And why do you think they would say this? Because they hate hanoverians..because they want to attack my breed? NOOOOO! HELLOO....because Hanoverians are not built to do this and YES, it would be a waste of time. And I sure as hell would not be insulted if I asked a question like that and it was answered realistically (even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear or it bursted my little lala land dream bubble).

I was telling a friend about this thread. She laughed "Why don't you want to let them have their fantasies, dream crusher?" It's simple logic to me, but apparently not to everyone.

Let's face it: anyone asking about draft horse suitability for dressage will not be winning at the FEI level on ANY horse. In this lifetime at least.

You don't know that. It could have been a teenager, who may go on to a big dressage career. You can't make that assumption from one question.

But to say that correct dressage training WILL cause physical and mental harm to a draft horse is flat out wrong.

Upper level dressage is hard on ANY horse. But it would be EXCEPTIONALLY hard on a draft type.

[rothmpp]

I don't see where anyone is trying to do that. The OP's question was can Shires do upper levels? Generally, no. I'm sure there is the exception out there. There's an exception for almost everything. That's all anyone has been saying. ...

I have to disagree with this... There have been many posts on this thread alone that have said that if you attempt dressage on a draft or cross you will break them down. I don't disagree that most drafts and draft crosses will never do upper level, but then neither will most warmbloods. I also believe that a carefully selected draft cross can make a very nice regionally competitive dressage mount.

I have a question though... I know that most WB purists believe a draft cross is always a draft cross no matter how many generations back the full draft was. If I have a 1/4 clyde, 1/4 dutch, 1/2 TB gelding, is this a draft cross? How about a WB cross? Or even TB cross? When talking about draft crosses in this thread it has never been established how much draft we are talking about other than the OP's full Shire. Another example - I could purchase a registered warmblood of a number of studbooks and have the resulting horse be 3/4 TB. I personally know of a stallion that is approved and branded BWP that is actually Holsteiner. When he is bred to an BWP approved TB mare - you actually have a 1/2 holsteiner, 1/2 TB BWP foal.

I think that most posters have done a good job of making the OP understand what to generally expect from a Shire, particularly since we have seen no pictures or video of the horse that she is looking at. But what I think upsets the non-traditional people most is that most (not all) of them truly understand that their competitive careers will be limited by their breed choice. I rarely hear the girl who rides the perchie at the shows series that I go to complain about her scores. In fact I've listened to her read through her tests and totally agree with her scores, good or bad. She doesn't need to also be treated like a second class citizen by the rail birds at shows.

[canticle]

Wow, well said. :)

[FancyFree]

I have to disagree with this... There have been many posts on this thread alone that have said that if you attempt dressage on a draft or cross you will break them down. I don't disagree that most drafts and draft crosses will never do upper level, but then neither will most warmbloods. I also believe that a carefully selected draft cross can make a very nice regionally competitive dressage mount.

My opinion is that a draft cross would be adequate at the lower levels, but would encounter enormous difficulties as it progressed. You're right that most warmbloods will not do upper level, but MORE warmbloods than drafts will do upper level dressage. More by a staggering amount. That's saying something. What? That WBs are the common horse found in upper level dressage because they are the best suited to the job. Drafts and draft crosses are not. But, as I've said before, there are exceptions to everything.

[Ambrey]

You just dont get it. If I went on to the racing forum and asked people if I could win a mile race with my 3 yr old hanoverian...what do you think they would say? And why do you think they would say this? Because they hate hanoverians..because they want to attack my breed? NOOOOO! HELLOO....because Hanoverians are not built to do this and YES, it would be a waste of time. And I sure as hell would not be insulted if I asked a question like that and it was answered realistically (even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear or it bursted my little lala land dream bubble).

Donella, it's a completely different situation, and I'll tell you why. There are draft crosses, drafts, and off breeds succeeding in upper level dressage. If there were Hanoverians winning races, would you still feel that the TB owners were justified in looking down their noses at you?

NOBODY is saying that draft crosses are as likely to be upper level winners as a good WB, or that a Shire should be competitive against a top KWPN. What people are saying is that SOME drafts and draft crosses can do the work. And since dressage is so much about the rider and the trainer, sometimes they can be competitive.

Most people run into the wall way before they reach either their own or their horse's physical limits. Time constraints, financial constraints, and just plain patience and motivation derail most dressage training programs well before the upper levels. Dedicated people who are devoted to an off-breed, though, who choose carefully and put in the time and effort sometimes DO succeed.

I don't see any purpose in beating people over the head with limitations. If someone has a dream, let them follow it. If the dream doesn't happen with one horse, they can try again on another. Sneering and gloating just makes people look bitter and unkind.

[Bravestrom]

maybe there aren't more because people keep saying that they can't do it.

and maybe there aren't any in the upper levels because people are so down on them that the riders just give up.

Just let people ride what they want to ride and have fun with what they are riding.

I just don't understand why some wb people push so hard to get people not to ride draft crosses. I thought the whole purpose of dressage is to get the best out of your horse in a natural and relaxed fashion and do movements that they can do naturally anyway. I know this is oversimplified but really, I think that some protest too much and really have to wonder why.

And you think I am harming my horse - you just come and see how much fun he is having - you will not find a happier horse out there - he knows when we are going riding and I can call him in from the field to ride. He gets mad when I ride someone else and he has the greatest attitude.

You can see when he doesn't understand something new and when it clicks and he gets it - he is so proud.

[Cielo Azure]

People have been using drafts in dressage for how many years? Ten years at most for a few animals (like Cottonwood Flame), and maybe a few, VERY few (count them on one hand) having been using them for fifteen years. How could one actually look at the numbers and make any comparison as to whether they are competitive. Of course, Percherons are one of the horses of choice for vaulting and circus work.

Maybe we should all address the issues of whether or how competitive they are (as a breed) and whether they break down in maybe another ten years time? Right now, I don't know if the data is there.

Shucks, draft horse shows only started riding classes at the most, ten years ago and most still don't allow W/T/C because the hitch guys HATE drafts being ridden and since, they don't like to train, they don't like a horse that canters. All this BS about drafts can't be ridden started with the hitch drivers and their insistance that if a hitch horse learns to canter (not that they can't canter), it will ruin them as driving horse because they might break. As they don't like to do much training on the hitch animals, they don't want them to learn how to canter. Many seriously believe that you get more "action" out of a horse if you see the whites in their eyes when they are careening around the ring with a cart or hitch wagon -but darn it, they better not break! They believe that if you don't want a canter, you just don't ever let them canter and that is teaching!

[Bravestrom]

Cielo Azure - your post made me laugh - made me think of when I got my gelding.

He is a clyde hackney - what they call a commercial horse - bred to pull coaches - bred by one of the best breeders in North America of this type of horse.

He was trained to drive and was on a prize winning team - but he never pulled - he just looked pretty - so for them it was like - okay lets throw him out to be a riding horse. When I told the breeder what the horse was going to do he just laughed at me. When I bought three more from him he still kind of wondered.

Funny thing is - I have had my mares that I bought from him approved as canadian sport horse foundation and had one colt - by a swedish warmblood in the ring at the Royal Winter Fair - The breeder was the ring steward - he was shocked to see the colt in the ring as a Canadian Sport Horse.

There is a very famous old Stallion - from the old CSHA (when it used to be the Canadian Hunter Society) that was the premier stallion of his time - he was actually a commercial as well and people still talk about this great old stallion - but I bet most of them don't know he was part clyde - I actually had some babies from him.

Sometimes I have seen sport horse breeders promote their babies as being his offspring and I have to chuckle - they are selling draft crosses and probably don't even know it.

[MyReality]

I actually had my fair share of experience, of drafts crosses breaking down at a youngish age. I am talking about 16 year olds, looking like a 26. Most of them, ringbone and tie up. Therefore I would please ask people to scrutinize the build of a draft cross when they buy one, and don't think of them as dressage machines. If you happen to have one that is a dressage machine, congratulations.

Having said that, I had my fair share of any breed breaking down. I know even more quarter horses breaking down. I know relatively fewer TB breaking down. WB... it's hard to say, I believe it is a breed suitable for dressage. The injuries I know of, they could be 100% preventable if the rider has not pushed them so hard. For some reason, people thought if they have a WB, they ride them hard everyday, campaign them like crazy and put them in a stall for the rest of the time.

I also agree drafts are not originally bred to canter. Future breeding should focus on improving the canter. If you are buying a draft cross, buy the canter.

The question is can draft crosses do upper levels... in GENERAL, no. Don't think of them that way. If you happen to have a gem, great! But it's a serendipity, not a norm. The market is just maturing and the breeding program has a long way to go.

[Bravestrom]

Just a comment about the canter - they may not come with the uphill canter - but they definitely can be taught it.

My gelding did not come with a light canter but has developed a lovely canter - he is now 8 and while all our draft crosses do take a bit to develop the canter, it is very very possible. Important to keep the shoulders straight in the canter development.

[Cielo Azure]

Generally, draft crosses CAN come with tons of issues because they can be so heterogeneous in their characteristics. Below is the worst of the worst that is seen again and again (especially TB draft crosses).

BIG BODY with lots of muscle on little feet that are eggshell quality and fthin boned, woobly hocks. This is a set-up for breaking down. Then top this conformationally challenged animal with a TB temperment and what fun!

Of course, you can get a nice, moderate WB typy animal but it is not a given.

Another one that you see that is conformationally sound but fugly. BIG head, light body, short stump legs and a platter foot.

The possibilities are endless but many, many have more soundness issues than either of the parent breeds.

[Donella]

Yes well the golden rule of breeding : "always breed type to type" is fundamentally missing in the breeding of draft crosses so you often end up with an amalgamation of parts.

Again, I have one. She is a cool CDE horse..and does great at it (don't ask about the canter ok lol). I have also trained three of them. One was BEAUTIFUL ..a perch tb..I don't know how that worked out, but it did and he was sure amazing to look at. I could have sold 100 of him. But from what I have seen, for every good part of two totally different breeds to come together like that, this doesn't happen in most cases. When you do not adhere to the golden rule of breeding the odds are very much against you.

[Bravestrom]

well that is not always true - the breeder of our crosses has been 100-200 of the same type cross on their farm at various ages - I remember visiting him and seeing about 30 that looked identical - and that is his thing - because they need to be teams - they are all beautifully put together - I think you would really be hard pressed to call our crosses anything but beautiful so I have to disagree with you.

Speak from what you breed and know not what you think - since you don't breed crosses and may not have researched it to a great extent - whereas our horses originally come from a breeder that has been producing champion crosses for 50 years - mind you they haven't been for dressage, but they are becoming a very popular alternative in the circles I see.

[Donella]

MMmm this is pretty common knowledge in genetics and breeding. It kind of goes with the idea of "breeding true". If you breed two animals that have very different parts you end up getting an amalgamation of different parts..usually, because you get something from mom and something from dad. Most traits are not blended.

They have done this is the Hanoverian breeding program with tbs and before it was even started they knew not to expect much from the F1 generation. It was a long term project. And we are talking about two pretty similiar types..not nearly the differences in type that exists between draft and tb.

Sometimes it definately works out..most of the times it doesnt because of the genetic laws that govern it.

ps..I do love the clyde hackney crosses. I saw a pair at a CDE I was at with my mom. They looked amazing and did quite well...

[BaroquePony]

"Grade horses" can be some of the best conformed horses around. The cavalry dropped throroughbred stallions off all over the country so that local ranchers and farmers could breed them to their homegrown mares, a varied bunch at best. Everything from morgans to light drafts, mustangs, early quarter horses (NOT "butt high"), you name it. The outcome, most often was a polo pony type, which is exactly what the cavalry wanted.

When breeding draft to thoroughbred, the "breed type to type" phrase means conformation to conformation. In other words breed a big boned thoroughbred with big hooves and thick hoof walls to a light draft that is built for cantering and has a good sloped shoulder, etc.. That way if all of the recessive genes happen to link up, they are somewhat in unison as to end product.

Hopefully you can cull for recessives and match up the dominants that you want.

[hundredacres]

I find it almost funny how stating an opinion and using logic to support that opinion WHEN ASKED FOR IT is turned into "attacking".

I ride an off breed for the hundred millionth time. But that doesn't mean I am clued out as to what constitutes functional/ideal conformation in regards to upper level sport horses. She asked for the opinion...we gave it. Nobody is attacking anyone...we are simply having a discussion about form and it's relation to function...at least that is what I was doing.

I'm so with you Donella! I think it's a good question, and has some contructive answers.

I should state that I too, ride an "odd" breed...a STB (we are at training level). I never, ever feel attacked when someone asks about her. And they always do. I often get that polite pause after i mention her breed....lol. I don't care. But I'm pretty practical and a realist, which is good since she wasn't started under saddle until she was 12. ;)

[Ambrey]

When breeding draft to thoroughbred, the "breed type to type" phrase means conformation to conformation. In other words breed a big boned thoroughbred with big hooves and thick hoof walls to a light draft that is built for cantering and has a good sloped shoulder, etc.. That way if all of the recessive genes happen to link up, they are somewhat in unison as to end product.

Hopefully you can cull for recessives and match up the dominants that you want.

Exactly. Breeding good draft crosses isn't a slam dunk, but it's not a shot in the dark either.

One thing to think about, the european warmbloods maintain their quality by ruthless culling. You don't see many of the "oops" results, as they end up on a frenchman's dinner plate. The US just doesn't do that. So, you see the "oops" results of the effort to create an American sporthorse starving in a field.

I'm told my horse was well bred, but I know nothing about his breeders or his lineage. I certainly know Perch x QH isn't a very common mix for a sporthorse, and it's quite possible there's a reason for that. I certainly can't say that my horse is the result of years of breeding, the culmination of a lifelong passion for enormously wide gray horses. What I do know is that there are those out there who ARE doing the draft x breeding thing, and doing it well, so clearly the outcome isn't decided entirely by luck.

[BaroquePony]

Quoted from Ambrey:
"One thing to think about, the european warmbloods maintain their quality by ruthless culling. You don't see many of the "oops" results, as they end up on a frenchman's dinner plate. The US just doesn't do that. So, you see the "oops" results of the effort to create an American sporthorse starving in a field."

I had written a note that it was unfortunate that the US had outlawed the slaughter of horses, but I thought I should delete it, so I did delete it.

Yes, I am a coward that doesn't want to get flamed.

Those "Thorcherons" that I saw in the 60s were bred and raised somewhere between Kentucky and Massachusetts (!). I wish I could remember everything, but I can't. He bred damned good horses. I do remember that.

Breeding is a science, an art and a wild card. But two out of three will give you more good horses than you think.

A breeder can have just as much trouble with line-breeding and back-breeding as cross-breeding and AI just exponentially increases the disasters.

[Donella]

One thing to think about, the european warmbloods maintain their quality by ruthless culling. You don't see many of the "oops" results, as they end up on a frenchman's dinner plate. The US just doesn't do that. So, you see the "oops" results of the effort to create an American sporthorse starving in a field.

Oh please. They maintain type and quality because they have breeding down to an exact science. Do you know how many articles related to genetics that are published every month in the Verband newsletter? They have breeding indexes, MPT, SPT results..heritability percentages..all ranked by the FN and published in huge books full of information on approved stallions. Stallions must pass rigorous testing to be allowed to breed. They have developed specific programs for specific athlete developement (jumper breeding program). Believe me..they aren't just throwing two horses together and crossing their fingers.

And on top of this..they maintain high quality with inspections and strict standards. They have predicates that they award to mares that fit a certain type, and they demote breeding subpar mares by not allowing acceptance into the main mare book. Performance tests to evaluate the breeding prospects..mares and stallions take place.

Attention to detail and a very high standard are what allows for successful breeding..not sending a bunch of horses to the slaughter plant. I will not speak for every wb association but in Hanover, they "get" genetics and that is why they have been number one with the WFSHB for decades. (and the other wb registries that are also very successful are also the most selective..Holstein, Kwpn ect)

I would say there is alot more slaughter culling going on with the draft cross/grade horse breeders than there is with euro wbs. I also live in draft cross /pmu country..and beleive you me, the success rate of an attractive cross is more around the 1 in 10. And I look, because I love to buy these as resale projects any time I can find a cute one.

[BaroquePony]

It is not good science to make a "linear" comparison of the state breeding and testing programs in Europe to what goes on in North America, or at least in the United States.

I have seen a lot of weird looking warmbloods, Dutch and Swedish, that looked very drafty. Since there is an open book registry to thoroughbreds and a couple of others, I have noticed the wbs beginning to look more and more like thoroughbreds (which I like).

All those horses that don't make it through the rigorous testing go somewhere.

[canticle]

Sorry, I got to agree with Ambrey on this one. European stallions are known for covering massive numbers of mares. Yes of course some of the offspring rise to the top, as with any breeding program. But what do you think happens to those who don't? Can you say dinner? :no:

The inspection and testing system is great if you like that sort of thing, but it is no guarantee of quality. It adds substantially to the cost of the horses and it is just way too political for me. A BNT was complaining to me the other day about American Hanoverians (B-line in particular) and all of the issues they have. But everyone is afraid to call it like it is. Sorry, I've seen too many WBs to believe that they are special. You still have to do your homework, to find the horses without soundness or temperament problems, or without genetic abnormalities.

And you can't even compare quality draft crosses to PMU babies. That is apples and oranges. If you are judging drafts based on what you have seen from PMU farms, no wonder you think so little of them. If I judged all WBs by the crap Bordeaux mare at my barn, well then my view of them would be awfully skewed too! :D

[Donella]

I am not saying there aren't crappy warmbloods but what I am saying is that, at least with the breeds I am associated with, strict quality control that DOESNT come from slaughter culling but rather through science and different measures that INCREASE THE CHANCE of breeding quality offspring. No method is surefire...but to say that breeding is a crapshoot so you just hope for the best. No..at least thats not what I beleive.


Type to Type breeds type....if you base your breeding program on an opposite concept you have ALOT more chance involved in an already chancey endevor. Thats all I am saying.

And no I am not basing it all on pmu horses but lets face it, those are where most of them come from. At least in Canada. And again, for the fifth time, I don't "think little of them". I own one that I adore and if I were on a budget and wanted to compete in lower level sport stuff I would probably buy a draft cross...some of them are really cool. It's just alot more hit and miss.

[BaroquePony]

Quoted from Donella:
"...but to say that breeding is a crapshoot so you just hope for the best."

Who said breeding was a crap shoot? I must have missed that.


What are pmu horses?

[equusaround]

At the FEI trainer's conference with Jan Brink in CA, a rider from Washington was riding a Belgium/AQHA/(something) cross that was heavily draft in its conformation. The horse had a funny musculature and really didn't look like a dressage horse. However, that horse was soooo well trained and did the entire GP. Of course, it wasn't going to score competitively and wasn't going to get >6 on gaits, but it was a really NICE horse and just did it.

I was impressed with its rideability and the training ability of its owner/rider.

[Heinz 57]

I know no one will probably believe this, and it is purely anecdotal anyway. A spanish-german friend of mine that moved here from Spain maybe 6 years ago, also imported her two WB mares (Holsteins, I think). They are older, late teens now, but well bred and let me tell you - one of the mares is 16.2 and heavier built than many draft crosses, built like an old Mack. An all around BIG girl. Very heavy bone, probably 1400lbs easy. The other mare is a little shorter at 15.3, but of the same proportion for her height.

Obviously, they are older and not examples of the 'new' trends in WB breeding. But they ARE true, straight from Europe, WB's. They speak Spanish and German! Are these mares some kind of anomaly, or was this the 'type' of WB that was being produced 20 years ago? I'm not saying these mares are or ever were FEI material, just pondering WB breeding trends of yesteryear.

I don't think ALL draft crosses were made for dressage, but, as with any breed, I think there are those that possess enough of the positive conformation traits to succeed at the mid-levels, and a few that possess exceptional qualities that have FEI potential. And of that very few, *maybe* one rider/owner who possesses the skill and drive and determination to utilize that potential.

When looking at horses, I looked for conformation, movement, and temperament first. Breed was considerably farther down the list, somewhere around "head size" and "color".

[FancyFree]

I know no one will probably believe this, and it is purely anecdotal anyway. A spanish-german friend of mine that moved here from Spain maybe 6 years ago, also imported her two WB mares (Holsteins, I think). They are older, late teens now, but well bred and let me tell you - one of the mares is 16.2 and heavier built than many draft crosses, built like an old Mack. An all around BIG girl. Very heavy bone, probably 1400lbs easy. The other mare is a little shorter at 15.3, but of the same proportion for her height.

Obviously, they are older and not examples of the 'new' trends in WB breeding. But they ARE true, straight from Europe, WB's. They speak Spanish and German! Are these mares some kind of anomaly, or was this the 'type' of WB that was being produced 20 years ago? I'm not saying these mares are or ever were FEI material, just pondering WB breeding trends of yesteryear.

My deceased mare was like that. Not as heavy as you described, but was a pretty big boned girl. My trainer would refer to her as "the German tank" or on heavy days, "the dumptruck". :lol: The goal in breeding Hanoverians is for a much lighter look today than what my mare was. I bred this mare to a very light boned Hano, a Twinkletoes, and got a nice mix of the two, I think.

I don't think ALL draft crosses were made for dressage, but, as with any breed, I think there are those that possess enough of the positive conformation traits to succeed at the mid-levels, and a few that possess exceptional qualities that have FEI potential. And of that very few, *maybe* one rider/owner who possesses the skill and drive and determination to utilize that potential.

When looking at horses, I looked for conformation, movement, and temperament first. Breed was considerably farther down the list, somewhere around "head size" and "color".

Very true.

[Ambrey]

When looking at horses, I looked for conformation, movement, and temperament first. Breed was considerably farther down the list, somewhere around "head size" and "color".

You're lucky, I just got done horse shopping for my mother and daughter. Fluffy manes and pretty colors were an imperative. I managed to get lucky :winkgrin:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/200804.jpg

[flashykatt]

I know no one will probably believe this, and it is purely anecdotal anyway. A spanish-german friend of mine that moved here from Spain maybe 6 years ago, also imported her two WB mares (Holsteins, I think). They are older, late teens now, but well bred and let me tell you - one of the mares is 16.2 and heavier built than many draft crosses, built like an old Mack. An all around BIG girl. Very heavy bone, probably 1400lbs easy. The other mare is a little shorter at 15.3, but of the same proportion for her height.

Obviously, they are older and not examples of the 'new' trends in WB breeding. But they ARE true, straight from Europe, WB's. They speak Spanish and German! Are these mares some kind of anomaly, or was this the 'type' of WB that was being produced 20 years ago? I'm not saying these mares are or ever were FEI material, just pondering WB breeding trends of yesteryear.

I have a book about Hanoverians with pictures of the type of horse that was being bred during WWII. They look heavier than today's drafties, and were bred for pulling cannons! The WWI horses were much lighter, and were apparently heavy riding horses, but boy, WWII was all about pulling power, lol!

Probably a big reason why they imported Traks to improve type :D !

[rothmpp]

They have done this is the Hanoverian breeding program with tbs and before it was even started they knew not to expect much from the F1 generation. It was a long term project. And we are talking about two pretty similiar types..not nearly the differences in type that exists between draft and tb.



I wish I had video of mine to post... The 1/4 dtw, 1/4 draft, 1/2 tb that I have is obviously an F2 generation. He apparently got the best from both parents. I ride in a #3 County, he wears an 80 blanket, and a full, not warmblood bridle. There are certain characteristics about him that you can certainly see a hint of draft. He can put his nose on your toe while going straight and not fall down (the snake neck described before), though I do think this is somewhat due to the fact that he doesn't have the unproportionally short neck that you can find on some WBs. His head is not pretty - not as far as fugly, though. And he has big cannon bones and wears a #3 shoe.

When I bought him last summer, I just considered him a fun lower level prospect. This winter I have worked with couple of FEI trainers who both said separately that I should think about the 5YO test for him. Draft crosses with upper level potential are out there, there is just not nearly as many as there are WBs. Since the breeding of draft crosses for sporthorses is in its infancy it is still a work in process.

Canticle - I don't know why it hadn't occured to me that quite a few people only think of draft crosses as pmu horses... the resistance to the idea that quality crosses do exist makes more sense now.

Baroque - PMU horses are the offspring of mares that were bred specifically to harvest their urine as part of hormone replacement therapy. There were huge PMU farms - primarily in Canada - that used draft mares and TB stallions (I think that is the way it went...) and then would sell the babies for a song. When the PMU market got smaller since there are many synthetic options for HRT now - the herds were culled and many were sent to slaughter.

[Bravestrom]

And don't underestimate their jumping abilitly.

Again -check out our draft crosses - www.hotelfun4kids.com/horses.htm

I have an 11 month old colt that cleared a 4'6" fence yesterday and one of my son's mare's decided to go into the arena through the top corner of a double dutch door - four by four opening that was four feet high - this is a 16.1hh draft cross mare.

The power in the back end is amazing - just needs the right training to harness it.

[polarbear]

And don't underestimate their jumping abilitly.



I can't help myself, you totally set me up for this:). I have no dog in this fight, but here's my Clyde/tb gelding (Clyde stallion, tb mare).. He sure can jump..He was a preliminary eventer, going intermediate when I bought him (and yes, he did make the xc time)..

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=4foot9.jpg

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=_KIT6742.jpg

He's limited in his dressage only by me! (Confirmed ammy rider!)

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=DSC_3552.jpg

He's got a lovely uphill canter as well...He's the product of a very good breeding program.

ETA pics are from AEC eventing championships 2005, training level eventing, he was 8th out of 66 horses after dressage.

[FancyFree]

I can't help myself, you totally set me up for this:). I have no dog in this fight, but here's my Clyde/tb gelding (Clyde stallion, tb mare).. He sure can jump..He was a preliminary eventer, going intermediate when I bought him (and yes, he did make the xc time)..

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=4foot9.jpg

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=_KIT6742.jpg

He's limited in his dressage only by me! (Confirmed ammy rider!)

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=DSC_3552.jpg

He's got a lovely uphill canter as well...He's the product of a very good breeding program.

ETA pics are from AEC eventing championships 2005, training level eventing, he was 8th out of 66 horses after dressage.

Wow, he's exceptional. Really magnificent looking. Do you still event with him? How big is he? In the picture of him in the dressage court, the rider looked teeny tiny.

Love his name too. :)

[oldschool]

Dear Polar Bear. Your horse sucks!1 Ha!Ha!! Totally just kidding. He is AWESOME!! And you look like a great rider too!!People who give drafts the shaft are daft!!

[Ambrey]

People who give drafts the shaft are daft!!

*snort*

:lol:

[oldschool]

Thank you Ambrey, Though not a fan of alliteration or simple rhymes, I cracked my own self up with that.Humor and wit, or some semblance thereof seems to be sadly missing in these threads more than occasionally.

[polarbear]

Wow, he's exceptional. Really magnificent looking. Do you still event with him? How big is he? In the picture of him in the dressage court, the rider looked teeny tiny.

Love his name too. :)

Thanks! I'm pretty proud of him. He's 17.2, the rider at the AEC's is a good friend, an "A" pony clubber, small but mighty! I thought it would be fun to see how he'd do with a REALLY good rider..
We still event him, my daughter (in the 4'9" pic) evented him, and pony clubbed him, then went to school. Now he's mine..I'm ever so gradually working my way up to training..

His breeder has turned out LOTS of nice draft crosses, many are 1/4 clyde.
http://users.erols.com/blackfoxfarm/index.htm

[FancyFree]

Thanks! I'm pretty proud of him. He's 17.2, the rider at the AEC's is a good friend, an "A" pony clubber, small but mighty! I thought it would be fun to see how he'd do with a REALLY good rider..
We still event him, my daughter (in the 4'9" pic) evented him, and pony clubbed him, then went to school. Now he's mine..I'm ever so gradually working my way up to training..

His breeder has turned out LOTS of nice draft crosses, many are 1/4 clyde.
http://users.erols.com/blackfoxfarm/index.htm

He's really well put together. With careful breeding, it looks like you can get a pretty nice horse out of it. Not so much of a mish-mash of horse parts that I've seen in the past. I'd love to see him move. If you ever feel the urge to put up some video, please do!

[ashmotter]

This boy is one of my favorites! His name is Ainville Tartan Special (Max) and is a 1995 Clyde (now deceased). He was actually schooling piaffe and passage before he passed away.

http://www.sherwoodshires.nl/videoframeseng.html

Another of my absolutely favorite boys! Paul is an 18.2 Shire stallion born in 1990. He actually was approved for breeding by the AWS and holds the second highest score for his breed to date scoring an impressive 8 on gaits! My Shire mare foaled a son of his last year, and the lady who bought him is going to keep him as a stallion for breeding to her TB and WB mares if he keeps maturing like he is!

http://www.foundfeatherfarm.net/Powerful_Paul.html

[Ambrey]

This boy is one of my favorites! His name is Ainville Tartan Special (Max) and is a 1995 Clyde (now deceased). He was actually schooling piaffe and passage before he passed away.

http://www.sherwoodshires.nl/videoframeseng.html

Another of my absolutely favorite boys! Paul is an 18.2 Shire stallion born in 1990. He actually was approved for breeding by the AWS and holds the second highest score for his breed to date scoring an impressive 8 on gaits! My Shire mare foaled a son of his last year, and the lady who bought him is going to keep him as a stallion for breeding to her TB and WB mares if he keeps maturing like he is!

http://www.foundfeatherfarm.net/Powerful_Paul.html

Um, wow?

Love that clyde!

[oldschool]

Powerful Paul is simply breathtaking!OMG!I've never seen such a beautiful horse in my life. That's it. My new mission in life is to take a horse like that to Grand Prix! Hey, I've got time..He blows the Rembrandts,Bonfires away! WOW!

[Ambrey]

Powerful Paul is simply breathtaking!OMG!I've never seen such a beautiful horse in my life. That's it. My new mission in life is to take a horse like that to Grand Prix! Hey, I've got time..He blows the Rembrandts,Bonfires away! WOW!

OMG, can I watch? I'd love to see it :)

I love a nice warmblood, but hairy feet do float my boat :)

[ashmotter]

I am very much with you both on that! Those pictures actually don't do Paul justice...I got to see him in person and actually had a video of it but the video got burnt in the fire:( His trot is absolutely amazing...he's just dreamy:D

[ashmotter]

The foal out of my Shire mare by Paul can be seen on the following link. Click the tab "Boarders" and scroll down to Amadeous X. We had named him Mufasa because his mother can rival with Paul in hair (until the little twerp chewed it off!), and we figured he would get a nice "lion's mane"! Haha He really was an absolute breeze of a colt to work with! I am actually hoping to breed my Shire back to him next season to try for a filly...it should be a keeper as this mare has had three foals by Paul and each one has been nicer than the last!

Also, one thing I had never heard of before until I met Paul and had Mufasa was that colts could be born with their testicles fully descended! I had never seen that before and had the vet out to check for a hernia. No hernia...his boys were already fully intact:lol: I guess Paul has thrown colts with descended testicles before...rather strange!

http://www.irus-stables.com/

[oldschool]

I went to the website but I saw no pictures of awesome Paul ?? Did I go to the wrong one? It said Irus??

[Bravestrom]

My clyde/hackney/swedish warmblood colt was born with his testicles fully descended. I thought nothing of it - just glad they were there.

He is now 11 months old - 16hh and just a beautiful boy - very easy to handle and quite the social butterfly. Unfortunately we had to separate him from the herd this week - he now is with the geldings and infoal mares. The other mares miss him and don't like the herd split so every once in a while I have to bring him into the barn so the others can all be together.

I can't wait until I breed him to my rio filly.

[ashmotter]

Sorry OldSchool...the link was for Paul's foal...Amadeous X. Didn't mean to disappoint you!:lol: Go to this link and click on her webshots link...she is who I met Paul through as she owned him for quite a while...Look under the SOLD pictures on that page as that's where he will likely be. I can't remember if he has his own page or not:)

www.warhorsefarm.com

Prodomus - It's definitely nice born with them descended! I wish they would all be like that so then there is no worry about being cryptochid! Haha I've had one of those too and that wasn't much fun!