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View Full Version : Silly question-Why don't dressage people clip their horses nose?



ridgeback
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:02 PM
Coming from the hunter/jumper world where they clip every stray hair I was wondering why dressage people don't? Thanks

EvelynJK
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:06 PM
Those hairs have a purpose, they allow horses to feel their feed bucket, water buckets, where they are grazing and where the wall is before their actual muzzle encounters danger. A lot of people feel it is cruel to clip these whiskers. By clipping these whiskers, it impairs their sense of touch.

ETA: Its not required to have these whiskers cut, so many leave them because of this.

Sakura
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:06 PM
Grooming is a personal preference thing... I have seen dressage horses clipped up nice and slick, some that looked cleaned up and others left natural with fuzzy ears, whiskers, chin hair and all. Just depends on what you like I suppose.

ridgeback
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:07 PM
Thanks:) Most of the upper level horses I've seen over the years have all had their nose whiskers..

Ambrey
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:16 PM
Thanks:) Most of the upper level horses I've seen over the years have all had their nose whiskers..

It's quite different from arabs, where their noses are bare, huh? I like the natural look :)

Dressage Art
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:17 PM
I leave 1" of whiskers to let horse feel with them. Clipping them seems more neat, but it does take away one of the feelings that horse uses. Since horses have quite a bad, blurry vision, whiskers do help them.

I don't care for clipping ears inside as well - flies just flock to the clean clipped ears. I trim the outside: I flatten the ear with my hand and cut all of hair ear that sticks out and leave everything inside.

I do clip the top of the tail - that actually helps to keep it cleaner.

egontoast
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:23 PM
Maybe you might ask why some people clip them.

Do you clip the whiskers off your dogs and cats?

I don't think it's necessarilly cruel to clip them but I don't see the need and, yes, they have a purpose. Especially the ones around the eyes. i've seen people snipping those off as well.

I don't think whiskers look bad on a horse any more thanthey look bad on a cat or dog. I clip fetlocks and the hairs under the jaw if they get long but not the whiskers. I don't clip inside the ears but will tidy them up and trim them flush. Personal preference.

Peggy
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:32 PM
It's more accepted in the dressage world? More traditional? (Peggy dons flame suit) More European? I've also seen some less-than-trim fetlock areas in the dressage world. Based on experience doing both, including high-end dressage shows, and keeping in mind that my dressage experience is now four years dated, dressage people on average seem a bit more casual about clipping and sometimes grooming for shows. Not to the point of being sloppy. And not that there aren't totally clipped up dressage horses and somewhat casual HJ'ers. I also suspect the gap is closing, at least here on the left coast where stray hair is more of an issue (see ManScaping: I know you all can Google).

oldschool
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:34 PM
I agree with DressageArt. Leaving an inch or two while still staying tidy is a good middle ground. Part of the overall impression is one's turnout. Maybe a clip clip right before a show? Who wants to go to a triple rated show with a horse lookng like walrus or my 90 yr. old grandmother? I tried to pluck those once but she woke up. Hence the restrainig order but that's another story altogether.

slc2
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:39 PM
i leave 'em most of the time, i think they look like plucked chickens or some sort of shaved poodle otherwise. it's british and european to leave 'em, and very american breed ring to cut 'em off.

merrygoround
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:39 PM
Some riders do clip muzzles. I don't mind doing it, but I absolutely leave untouched those around the eyes, and I trim the ears for extra long fuzz.

The eye whiskers give the eyes DEW (distant early warning), while the ear fuzz keeps bugs out.

Xerintha
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:48 PM
I leave the nose whiskers alone and the insides of the ears. I'll trim under the jaw and chin to make the area look clean and to help avoid getting hairs stuck in the noseband. My horse doesn't tend to get lots of long hairs on his ears so I may or may not do anything with those depending. I much prefer a natural ear and will only clip the long outside hairs if there are any. I will do the bridle path, though, as I think it looks clean and neat. I also clip around the hooves and fetlocks since it looks cleaner and dries faster which helps prevent rainrot and fungus.

Dixon
Apr. 4, 2008, 12:56 PM
It's more accepted in the dressage world? More traditional? (Peggy dons flame suit) More European? I've also seen some less-than-trim fetlock areas in the dressage world. Based on experience doing both, including high-end dressage shows, and keeping in mind that my dressage experience is now four years dated, dressage people on average seem a bit more casual about clipping and sometimes grooming for shows. Not to the point of being sloppy. And not that there aren't totally clipped up dressage horses and somewhat casual HJ'ers. I also suspect the gap is closing, at least here on the left coast where stray hair is more of an issue (see ManScaping: I know you all can Google).

Great post, Peggy. I think you've suggested the most likely explanation for more stray hair in dressage than hunters -- dressage is more influenced by the Europeans, who are not as offended by naturally-growing hair. The ManScaping reference is a good point of comparison for the prevailing U.S. attitude.

ridgeback
Apr. 4, 2008, 01:00 PM
Maybe you might ask why some people clip them.

Do you clip the whiskers off your dogs and cats?

I don't think it's necessarilly cruel to clip them but I don't see the need and, yes, they have a purpose. Especially the ones around the eyes. i've seen people snipping those off as well.

I don't think whiskers look bad on a horse any more thanthey look bad on a cat or dog. I clip fetlocks and the hairs under the jaw if they get long but not the whiskers. I don't clip inside the ears but will tidy them up and trim them flush. Personal preference.

I think cats need them more then dogs or horses.. I can touch my dogs whiskers and they don't flinch but boy most cats hate it when you touch their whiskers. As for the question about clipping dogs whiskers I have to say yes..My ridgeback was a show dog and many clip the whiskers to have a more clean sleak look.. I flipped the first time the women who was showing my dog did it.. I will say he didn't care and it didn't make a difference to him but after he finished his championship that was it for me..no more showing or at least taking the whiskers off. I think you are right it's a personal preference thing..

ise@ssl
Apr. 4, 2008, 01:46 PM
I could be wrong but I was told clipping face hairs and inside the ears is not permitted in Europe. Can some of our friends over the pond weigh in on this?

We never clip face hairs or inside the ears on any of our horses and ponies from the time they are born until the time they are sold. We KNOW they need them and I feel it's not necessary.

Maybe we should have riders trim all the hair on their bodies as well.......ha ha

AMDressage
Apr. 4, 2008, 02:06 PM
Those hairs have a purpose, they allow horses to feel their feed bucket, water buckets, where they are grazing and where the wall is before their actual muzzle encounters danger. A lot of people feel it is cruel to clip these whiskers. By clipping these whiskers, it impairs their sense of touch.

ETA: Its not required to have these whiskers cut, so many leave them because of this.


I agree with Evelyn.

I don't clip the inner ear hair of my horses, and when I trim their whiskers I only do the ones around the nose and I just shorten them up some with a pair of scissors.

I do clip/trim, under jaw hair, fetlocks, and I neaten up coronet bands. I bang the tail if needed, and of course the manes are done.

snoopy
Apr. 4, 2008, 02:09 PM
I could be wrong but I was told clipping face hairs and inside the ears is not permitted in Europe. Can some of our friends over the pond weigh in on this?

We never clip face hairs or inside the ears on any of our horses and ponies from the time they are born until the time they are sold. We KNOW they need them and I feel it's not necessary.

Maybe we should have riders trim all the hair on their bodies as well.......ha ha


This correct... RE: muzzle anyway. I have never clipped inside my horse's ears..ever. I have though, many years ago, done the muzzle but for the past ten have not. The only ear and muzzle hair clipped in my barn is my own!:eek::(;)

jme
Apr. 4, 2008, 02:19 PM
I leave the nose whiskers alone and the insides of the ears. I'll trim under the jaw and chin to make the area look clean and to help avoid getting hairs stuck in the noseband. My horse doesn't tend to get lots of long hairs on his ears so I may or may not do anything with those depending. I much prefer a natural ear and will only clip the long outside hairs if there are any. I will do the bridle path, though, as I think it looks clean and neat. I also clip around the hooves and fetlocks since it looks cleaner and dries faster which helps prevent rainrot and fungus.

I do exactly this. And I showed Arabs in dressage!

In 4H I remember everyone shaving every ounce of hair they could from their horses. It was strange. I didn't like it and so I didn't do it. I got marked down in showmanship. I didn't care. I wanted what was best for my horse and that meant him having fuzzy ears. :)

Denali
Apr. 4, 2008, 02:22 PM
Wow I never thought I would be a minority on this one.

I have worked as a show groom for more than one FEI trainer. We clipped muzzles and jaw lines, bridle path, trimmed bushy ear hair (never inside the ear), trimmed fetlocks and coronet bands to look neat. Manes stayed pulled, tails banged across the bottom between fetlock and just below the hock (depending on tail quality) and clipped the tail dock to keep things neat and clean. That is still how I do it.

When I got involved with some breed show stuff and made some friends in the Arabian horse world I was shocked to see ears "scooped" clean, eye whiskers gone (this REALLY freaked me out!), shiny blacked hooves and baby oiled heads. Strange.

Of course I never thought clipping the muzzle was strange either. I mean we don't BALD them or anything, they have some stubble. I dunno, it just completes the clean look to me. I had never considered that it might hinder them in some way... none of them ever cared!

I guess everything is relative. My friends in the Arabian and Saddlebred world would agree my guys are pretty au naturale. I mean I don't even know HOW to put a tail up in a tail bag! :D

royal militron
Apr. 4, 2008, 02:32 PM
I keep jaw line hairs clean and neat- not shaved all the way down. I keep bridle path cut, ears trimmed, but not clipped inside (ever) and I do not clip his nose. I will maybe buzz off a few really long ones a few inches from his nose but that's it. You can't even see it... and it doesn't take away from an over all neat and clean appearance.

Equibrit
Apr. 4, 2008, 02:34 PM
Because it does not benefit the horse or the score.

ridgeback
Apr. 4, 2008, 02:45 PM
Well it appears people do what they feel is best for them..No hard set rules good to know.

It doesn't hurt the horse either and I guess the hunter world feels it looks clean and slick:) I guess it's like banking the tail and shaving the top part...things hunter people don't do because we braid the tail..to each is own:) one is not better then the other..

Equibrit
Apr. 4, 2008, 02:56 PM
I guess it's like banking the tail and shaving the top part.....

Now - how exactly would you do that?

CTM
Apr. 4, 2008, 02:59 PM
I came to dressage from hunters and was surprised that the show turnout was not as meticulous in dressage. I still turn my dressage horse out like a hunter; it just feels awkward going to the ring fuzzy!

Wild Oaks Farm
Apr. 4, 2008, 03:15 PM
Wait a minute...I guess I was behind on this! I had no idea and clip my pony's whiskers for shows! :eek:

I don't clip is fetlocks, but not because I don't want to...because he won't let me!

So then, what am I supposed to clip, and what am I NOT supposed to clip?

Dressage62
Apr. 4, 2008, 03:17 PM
...it annoys the horse.

I did see a groom snipping eye whiskers with a pair of scissors....she had way too much time on her hands!

Equibrit
Apr. 4, 2008, 03:18 PM
You can clip and bank anything you find suitable.

Dressage62
Apr. 4, 2008, 03:21 PM
When I got involved with some breed show stuff and made some friends in the Arabian horse world I was shocked to see ears "scooped" clean, eye whiskers gone (this REALLY freaked me out!), shiny blacked hooves and baby oiled heads. Strange.
:D


I know someone who quit either showing or judging at Arab shows when people started using eye make-up on horses.

Wild Oaks Farm
Apr. 4, 2008, 03:44 PM
...it annoys the horse.

I did see a groom snipping eye whiskers with a pair of scissors....she had way too much time on her hands!

I must disagree. My TB loves to be clipped...he falls asleep when I clip him!

ridgeback
Apr. 4, 2008, 03:49 PM
I must disagree. My TB loves to be clipped...he falls asleep when I clip him!

Most of my horses would fall asleep when I'd body clip them:)

ponyjumper4
Apr. 4, 2008, 04:52 PM
I hate fuzzy muzzles, don't know why, I just do. I use that cheap little purple thing you can get at most feed and tack stores. I will trim fetlocks, and ears--but not inside the ears, I never do that.

inca
Apr. 4, 2008, 06:18 PM
Guess I am in the minority because I clip muzzles for shows. Always have and I think it looks SO much better. I will also clip for a big clinic. I will SHORTEN the hair by the eyes but not clip them totally off. (I leave an inch or so around the eyes.)

I USUALLY don't clip the inside of ears but recently did so on one mare. She will NOT let me clip her ears so when she got her teeth done last week we clipped her hears while she was tranq'd. We got a bit carried away and her ears are definitely ready for the hunter ring. But, it will be another year before I can clip them again - LOL.

WrenTF
Apr. 4, 2008, 06:26 PM
I'm with you Inca - I clip everything. I think it looks neater...ok wait, I don't clip the fetlocks cuz I have a Friesian - but her face is fair game!!! My trainer and most people I know who show dressage clip their horses. Just depends on what you like I guess. I think saying it's "cruel" to shave them is a bit of a stretch (IMHO). Our show horses are kept in stalls and turned out in very pristine and safe enclosures so I'm pretty sure they are ok without a full face of hair. There's not a whole lot for them to run in to. In the wild it'd be a different story obviously.

Cowgirl
Apr. 4, 2008, 08:33 PM
I leave the muzzle and the insides of the ears; I clip the fetlocks, the jawline, the bridle path. I am now wanting to let the dock grow out (for a fuller tail), but it looks really stupid at the moment, like wings. I don't know what to do with it. I have seen a trend in some elite riders to let the dock grow out as well. But I am doing it because I want a fuller tail and modesty for my mare. ;)

enjoytheride
Apr. 4, 2008, 08:40 PM
I clip lower legs, muzzles, jawline, bridlepath, and at least the outside of the ears. The mane is pulled short and maybe braided. If the mane is long it is always french braided. I have never seen a horse run into a wall or his bucket from having his nose clipped. I think it makes a polished performance and falls in line with a clean saddle pad, white socks, and clean tack with all the keepers fastened.

That way when my dressage horse rears at X and bolts during the canter circle at least the judge can write down "nice turn out" so they have something nice to say on my score :D

RageMan
Apr. 4, 2008, 09:07 PM
*Doesn't clip muzzle, because horse likes to eat clippers*

kashmere
Apr. 4, 2008, 09:16 PM
banking? are we having a regional disonnect? do you mean "banging"?

hoopoe
Apr. 4, 2008, 09:24 PM
From my experience I feel that the natural muzzle became more common when you started seeing photos of the tip top International horses at the big competitions with all their fuzzies.

My horse lives out 24/7 and I prefer his muzzle and ear hairs stay on.

I do trim fetlocks but only with scissors. I do not back shave and would not if he had white legs. I also trim the bridle path and dock and the under jaw bone fuzzies. I trim the jaw fuzzies to make the cavasson more comfortable and not to get the long hairs caught up in the buckles

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 4, 2008, 09:52 PM
My horses love their muzzles clipped - even the foals. They play with the clippers while you do it. I also "shape" the jaw line, clip bridle path and the ears flush (not inside). I clip the fetlocks and the tails a bang, bit a bit longer than fashion. I don't bang babies tails.

I have never had a problem with clipped muzzles, but I will absolutely NEVER pull or clip the top of the tail. Those hairs, like the ear hairs are for protection against bugs on their tender parts. It is really easy to get the same look without taking away their protection. If you just do a loose (hunter type) braid on the top of the tail, the evening before a competition, and lightly damp the braid and wrap, the hairs will "set". Before the class, remove the wrap and braid, and brush a bit. The hairs will stay close, and curve around the dock a bit.

The Europeans don't clip muzzle hairs, and when we started working more closely with them, importing their horses and ideas, many stopped clipping them here too. Personally, when I see a horse not clipped, it looks to me like a person that never combed their hair in the morning. ;)

I would bet there is a strong correlation between those that call them "feelers" and not clipping, or call them "whiskers" and clip. :lol:

coloredhorse
Apr. 4, 2008, 11:01 PM
So then, what am I supposed to clip, and what am I NOT supposed to clip?

There is no "supposed to" for the dressage ring. While in hunters, the judge is formally evaluating the entire presentation, including horse and rider turnout, in dressage, what is judged is only the horse's way of going, not his appearance. While a neat and clean turnout is respectful of the judge and venue, lack in this area is not scored. Therefore, you will see uniformly clean and shiny horses and tack, but a wide variety in terms of "fuzziness," depending on individual competitors' preferences and backgrounds.

Personally, though I do have a slight background in hunters, I prefer a "fuzzier" look. I present my horses sleek and shiny (thanks to good genes and regular vigorous grooming), neat manes and tails that are tidied at top and banged at the bottom. Bridle paths are neatly trimmed and ear hairs tidied, but left intact. I do dislike the goat hairs along the jaw, and will trim those away if the horse has them. Fetlocks I leave alone unless the horse has unattractive scraggly feathering, then I will tidy them. But it's all personal preference. I don't think even the most extreme trimming qualifies as actual cruelty; I might think some things look a little odd, but I'm sure there are people who think the same of the way I like to keep my horses trimmed.

vanheimrhorses
Apr. 4, 2008, 11:39 PM
because people in europe dont do it and american dressage riders have europe mania

Fixerupper
Apr. 4, 2008, 11:59 PM
It's just about fashion...

amastrike
Apr. 5, 2008, 12:26 AM
I clip my horse's muzzle before a show, but not the whiskers around his eye.. I'll maybe take some off, but I leave at least an inch or so, to hopefully prevent him stabbing himself in the eye. Ears, I trim the edges, but leave the fur inside to protect against flies.

Showbizz
Apr. 5, 2008, 12:46 AM
Does the hair inside the ears REALLY protect that much against flies? I'm truly not trying to start an argument. I do clip my show horse's ears inside, but don't my schoolies - and to both I apply fly ointment. I must say I find just as many scabs and ickies from flies in the clipped ears as in the non-clipped, and it's easier to get the "gunk" in the clipped ones! Maybe someone should do a study?! If someone will apply for the grant - I'm in!

etk
Apr. 5, 2008, 01:35 AM
Maybe we should have riders trim all the hair on their bodies as well.......ha ha

Hm.... well, at least my horse doesn't get waxed like me!

Kareen
Apr. 5, 2008, 07:50 AM
Ilona is right clipping of muzzles is banned in Europe so I guess it is a trend 'swapping over' to the US. There was a huge argument about this among the Welsh scene in Germany when a foreign participant in a show was banned because she showed up with her ponies' muzzles clipped like it is still customary in the UK. Some people felt she should not have been banned because she had no idea clipping the muzzle was banned on the continent. Others were all for it because they felt the judges were correct to inforce the rules in place.
I think it is a look people will get used to in the future much like with Dobermans who are no longer allowed to have cropped ears and tails. It falls under the 'no ambutation of organs-rule' and exceptions are only made if there is a medical purpose (for instance in a dog that has repeatedly injured wolf claws or tail).
Clipping the top of the tail is falling out of fashion here as well so the 'less is more' seems to be a fashion trend these days. I like a neat hairdo on a warmblood and still think cutting the tail top hair looks more tidy, at least on a gelding or stallion I would never braid them there it looks so pathetically female to me. If I leave them long for some reason I just wash and brush the tail and maybe have some waves by drying it braided overnight.
But clipping the muzzle is something you don't want to be caught with on European soil :)

ise@ssl
Apr. 5, 2008, 09:06 AM
Thanks Kareen - I thought that was the rule.

ridgeback
Apr. 5, 2008, 09:12 AM
If that is true that clipping the nose is banned in Europe that has to be the dumbist thing I have ever heard.. Talk about a controlling government...SIGH God Bless the USA..

egontoast
Apr. 5, 2008, 09:12 AM
In some parts of europe it is also illegal for dressage riders to shave or braid their armpits.

ridgeback
Apr. 5, 2008, 09:24 AM
Ilona is right clipping of muzzles is banned in Europe so I guess it is a trend 'swapping over' to the US. There was a huge argument about this among the Welsh scene in Germany when a foreign participant in a show was banned because she showed up with her ponies' muzzles clipped like it is still customary in the UK. Some people felt she should not have been banned because she had no idea clipping the muzzle was banned on the continent. Others were all for it because they felt the judges were correct to inforce the rules in place.
I think it is a look people will get used to in the future much like with Dobermans who are no longer allowed to have cropped ears and tails. It falls under the 'no ambutation of organs-rule' and exceptions are only made if there is a medical purpose (for instance in a dog that has repeatedlyinjuredwolf claws or tail).
Clipping the top of the tail is falling out of fashion here as well so the 'less is more' seems to be a fashion trend these days. I like a neat hairdo on a warmblood and still think cutting the tail top hair looks more tidy, at least on a gelding or stallion I would never braid them there it looks so pathetically female to me. If I leave them long for some reason I just wash and brush the tail and maybe have some waves by drying it braided overnight.
But clipping the muzzle is something you don't want to be caught with on European soil :)


That is bull I know jumpers from the U.S. that compete over there with shaved muzzle's..I don't see the law being passed here against docking tails and removing dew claws either..It sounds like your AR people have a strong hold over there.

Rhiannonjk
Apr. 5, 2008, 09:37 AM
That is bull I know jumpers from the U.S. that compete over there with shaved muzzle's..I don't see the law being passed here against docking tails and removing dew claws either..It sounds like your AR people have a strong hold over there.

Who said it was a Law? Perhaps just a rule from the national regulating bodies? Perhaps it doesn't cover the Jumpers?

JRG
Apr. 5, 2008, 09:49 AM
I am more of the middle of the road. I trim what would not be considered helpfull to the horse. I will trim the mane, tail, bridle path, outside of the ears and the throat latch.

I leave the muzzle, eyes and inside the ears not clipped. I also wait untill the "mud season" is over to clip the fetlocks. Clipping the fetlocks too early leads to the water and dirt dripping down the leg and into the back of the fetlock where fungus/scratches can happen.

Oh and yes the horror...I acutally cut the mane, since the horse this year will be in braids most of the year for show season. My horse is mane is thin enough that the braids will be neat and tidy. Makes quick work for braiding. In addition to banging and trimming my horses tail.

ridgeback
Apr. 5, 2008, 09:54 AM
Who said it was a Law? Perhaps just a rule from the national regulating bodies? Perhaps it doesn't cover the Jumpers?

Read the part that I quoted in my post,where someone from germany said it was Banned..

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 5, 2008, 10:44 AM
It falls under the 'no ambutation of organs-rule'

So Germans treat whiskers like they are on organ, and most American's treat them like they are hair.

ESG
Apr. 5, 2008, 10:48 AM
Wait a minute...I guess I was behind on this! I had no idea and clip my pony's whiskers for shows! :eek:

I don't clip is fetlocks, but not because I don't want to...because he won't let me!

So then, what am I supposed to clip, and what am I NOT supposed to clip?

Well, coming from an eventing background, I was always taught to clip. And I do. Muzzles are whiskerless, fetlocks and coronets are trimmed, as are the outside of the ears, jawline, bridle path. Tails are pulled at the top, not shaved (I hate that! :dead: ), and banged at fetlock level at the bottom. The only things I leave long are the "eye whiskers"; seen too many horses with torn eyelids because their feelers were taken away.

Sonesta
Apr. 5, 2008, 11:26 AM
In some parts of europe it is also illegal for dressage riders to shave or braid their armpits.

Yeah, I was just gonna say "Why would the Europeans shave their horses when they don't even shave their armpits?" And if Americans are going to follow blindly the European trends, when are you gals gonna stop shaving YOUR armpits?

LOL!

ESG
Apr. 5, 2008, 01:45 PM
In some parts of europe it is also illegal for dressage riders to shave or braid their armpits.

But can you bling them?

slc2
Apr. 5, 2008, 02:59 PM
years ago the armpit thing was true, it's not the rule any more. years ago in france i was shaving my legs and pitses and my sister said something like 't'es putain?' because they were nearly the only ones then that did.

ridgeback, boy i love how you condemn a whole continent of very varied countries who in some ways have far more freedoms than americans, because they have a different rule at a horse show than you do, :lol::lol:

ridgeback
Apr. 5, 2008, 03:38 PM
years ago the armpit thing was true, it's not the rule any more. years ago in france i was shaving my legs and pitses and my sister said something like 't'es putain?' because they were nearly the only ones then that did.

ridgeback, boy i love how you condemn a whole continent of very varied countries who in some ways have far more freedoms than americans, because they have a different rule at a horse show than you do, :lol::lol:

Gee I didn't condemn a whole continent just made an observation.. here we go with your assumptions and judgments...SIGH

P.S. not a fan of AR(animal rights) groups and that is why they have many of those laws..

Rhiannonjk
Apr. 5, 2008, 05:39 PM
Ridgeback, saying something is "Banned" doesn't mean that the government has made a law against it. Even if we were talking about something and somebody said it was "illegal" wouldn't mean that the government made laws against it. It is correct to say that long whips are illegal in dressage in the US, but that doesn't mean that the government has made a law against it.

And...just because some AR groups are extremist, doesn't mean that every animal rights issue is extreme.

ridgeback
Apr. 5, 2008, 06:11 PM
Ridgeback, saying something is "Banned" doesn't mean that the government has made a law against it. Even if we were talking about something and somebody said it was "illegal" wouldn't mean that the government made laws against it. It is correct to say that long whips are illegal in dressage in the US, but that doesn't mean that the government has made a law against it.

And...just because some AR groups are extremist, doesn't mean that every animal rights issue is extreme.

Very true about the law issue..sorry

I just find it odd to have a rule for something like clipping whiskers on the nose when many high level dressage riders in Europe and the U.S. don't turn their horses out..I suppose the rule makers think it's cruel to clip whiskers which pretty much has been proven doesn't hurt them yet they feel it's ok to take a grazing animal and leave it in a box for 23 hours a day..Most AR groups are extremist which makes it hard to get behind any of them..JMO of course. I realize you can't control if people turn out their horses I just think the whole banning of clipping is odd..

ise@ssl
Apr. 6, 2008, 07:24 AM
I believe this non-clip rule came from the EU. So member countries are required to comply. I don't think it's necessary to become snarky at European countries - when in reality when you look around - the younger generations in our own country seem to feel bathing, shaving, shampooing themselves is an option.

ridgeback
Apr. 6, 2008, 08:41 AM
I believe this non-clip rule came from the EU. So member countries are required to comply. I don't think it's necessary to become snarky at European countries - when in reality when you look around - the younger generations in our own country seem to feel bathing, shaving, shampooing themselves is an option.

Who's being snarky?

ise@ssl
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:09 AM
Hey - just the facts.

ridgeback
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:19 AM
Hey - just the facts.

Exactly the facts are it's an odd rule..especially when many riders don't turn their horses out...just seems a bit hypocritcal to me.. Don't have a problem with the people just the group that made such a silly rule...

Kareen
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:24 AM
ridgeback you are right on the no-turnout being possibly worse than clipping whiskers. However I've heard that's going to change too here and horses will be required to receive a considerable amount of free turnout. It'll be interesting to see how that will fly with some of our over-injury-phobic folk here *LOL*.
And yes the no-amputation-rule came from the EU initially and it was each single country's responsibility what to make of it.
I would say Fairview summed up the situation superbly.
Whether Whiskers are a tactile organ or 'regular' hair one may argue about of course. But the medical pov over here is they are tactile organs and that's what the guideline was based upon. I wouldn't go as far as to consider it a matter of personal freedom whether or not I am allowed to clip my horse's whiskers.
I do like a neat look I just don't believe it should be a priority over the horse's wellbeing.
I think in the first place clipping the whiskers came up because it will make the horse act more agitated and look fancier at in hand shows in the Arab World. If so that would not be a method I could agree with.

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:24 AM
the younger generations in our own country seem to feel bathing, shaving, shampooing themselves is an option.

umm, I believe that was the 60's to early 70's - remember Woodstock? :winkgrin:

ridgeback
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:38 AM
ridgeback you are right on the no-turnout being possibly worse than clipping whiskers. However I've heard that's going to change too here and horses will be required to receive a considerable amount of free turnout. It'll be interesting to see how that will fly with some of our over-injury-phobic folk here *LOL*.
And yes the no-amputation-rule came from the EU initially and it was each single country's responsibility what to make of it.
I would say Fairview summed up the situation superbly.
Whether Whiskers are a tactile organ or 'regular' hair one may argue about of course. But the medical pov over here is they are tactile organs and that's what the guideline was based upon. I wouldn't go as far as to consider it a matter of personal freedom whether or not I am allowed to clip my horse's whiskers.
I do like a neat look I just don't believe it should be a priority over the horse's wellbeing.
I think in the first place clipping the whiskers came up because it will make the horse act more agitated and look fancier at in hand shows in the Arab World. If so that would not be a method I could agree with.

That would be awesome if they get to be turned out:) I guess I would think whiskers would be for their wellbeing if I saw hunter/jumpers who get turned out probably on average more often then dressage horses coming in with face injuries but they don't.....Maybe evolution has made it so the whiskers aren't important anymore as they were when they were wild...??

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 6, 2008, 11:54 AM
I think in the first place clipping the whiskers came up because it will make the horse act more agitated and look fancier at in hand shows in the Arab World. If so that would not be a method I could agree with.

Clipping whiskers has been common in Hunters, QH, for EVER, and certainly will not change their behavior/'attitude. Those disciplines LOOK for quiet and calm. The foals' muzzles that I clip don't make them show off at Devon <sigh> if only it were that easy. :winkgrin: I have never seen a horse that behaves in any way differently with a shaved muzzle than they do shaggy. They don't bump into things, don't get injuries, latch on to udders without notcing any difference, etc.

I would definitely consider shaving muzzles personal freedom - SERIOUS personal freedom.

Sonesta
Apr. 6, 2008, 12:41 PM
I hope you guys realize I was being (attempting to be) funny and not snarky by my arm pit comment.

Just trying to light up what was becoming a bit too seriously critical of each other's clipping habits.

ise@ssl
Apr. 6, 2008, 02:09 PM
Fairview - the difference from the 60's/70's to now was when we graduated from College we had to get a JOB and leave home and GROW UP. So by the time we hit 22 - the reality of being an adult hit home. Now the age of reality seems to be somewhere in the late 30's.

Kareen - I'm sure on a percentage basis the # of horseowners in Europe who practice no turn out compared to here is very low. Plus in Europe most of the horse owners and riders are actually HORSEMAN. Here - we have alot of "weekend warriors" who are solely focused on WINNING RIBBONS - in all disciplines. Many have trainers on them all the time until they get to the shows. And GOD FORBID you actually suggest to someone that they hack their horse outside the arena or the ring..............YIKES!!

Equibrit
Apr. 6, 2008, 03:22 PM
There was a huge argument about this among the Welsh scene in Germany when a foreign participant in a show was banned because she showed up with her ponies' muzzles clipped like it is still customary in the UK. Some people felt she should not have been banned because she had no idea clipping the muzzle was banned on the continent. Others were all for it because they felt the judges were correct to inforce the rules in place.
But clipping the muzzle is something you don't want to be caught with on European soil :)

The UK is in the EU.

FancyFree
Apr. 6, 2008, 03:26 PM
Clipping whiskers has been common in Hunters, QH, for EVER, and certainly will not change their behavior/'attitude. Those disciplines LOOK for quiet and calm. The foals' muzzles that I clip don't make them show off at Devon <sigh> if only it were that easy. :winkgrin: I have never seen a horse that behaves in any way differently with a shaved muzzle than they do shaggy. They don't bump into things, don't get injuries, latch on to udders without notcing any difference, etc.

I would definitely consider shaving muzzles personal freedom - SERIOUS personal freedom.

I come from the hunter world to dressage. I can't stand a shaggy muzzle! I'm in between clippers right now and it's driving me mad. I tried my kids safety scissors, but was unsuccessful. New clippers are top on my Must Buy list.

egontoast
Apr. 6, 2008, 04:40 PM
I think it's a weird question because it assumes that the shaved muzzle is the ideal because perhaps it is the ideal in the hunter world. It's not considered the ideal in the dressage world. Most people DON"T CARE if you shave the muzzle or not. Judges don't care. BNT's won't chide you for not doing it (unless maybe they are from hunter backgrounds).;)

Not everyone likes the muzzle shaved. Not everyone likes the bridle path shaved half way down the neck as is done in some disciplines. Not everyone likes the pulled mane, etc etc.

You say you are from the hunter world. Next you'll be asking why the tail is not plaited and why the gaits aren't like your hunter's gaits. Different styles. Different customs.

ridgeback
Apr. 6, 2008, 05:22 PM
I think it's a weird question because it assumes that the shaved muzzle is the ideal because perhaps it is the ideal in the hunter world. It's not considered the ideal in the dressage world. Most people DON"T CARE if you shave the muzzle or not. Judges don't care. BNT's won't chide you for not doing it (unless maybe they are from hunter backgrounds).;)

Not everyone likes the muzzle shaved. Not everyone likes the bridle path shaved half way down the neck as is done in some disciplines. Not everyone likes the pulled mane, etc etc.

You say you are from the hunter world. Next you'll be asking why the tail is not plaited and why the gaits aren't like your hunter's gaits. Different styles. Different customs.

If you think it's a weird question then why are you in this thread...oh yes silly guestion..

I don't care if people clip there horses or not I just wanted to see what the reasons were on why they didn't..I've heard the argument you wouldn't clip a cats whiskers and these are the same people who don't turn out which I find funny and a bit hypocritical.. Now I know it's a silly rule/law..No need to ask why the gates are different been in this horsey world 30+ years...LOL I think if you read the whole thread everyone aknowledged that it is a personal preferences on rather to clip unless you live in the EU that is where I said it got weird...:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Roan
Apr. 6, 2008, 05:39 PM
I don't clip my Lipizzaner at all because I'm one of the few dressage people at a barn that is primarily h/j and eventing. It drives everyone NUTS that my horse looks like a big white goat.

Hah! I enjoy that :D

Eileen

canticle
Apr. 6, 2008, 05:56 PM
I clip my horses' noses because I think it looks better. I don't touch the eyes or ears, though. Leaving the whiskers is a European custom, not a dressage custom. :)

ridgeback
Apr. 6, 2008, 06:09 PM
I clip my horses' noses because I think it looks better. I don't touch the eyes or ears, though. Leaving the whiskers is a European custom, not a dressage custom. :)

This wasn't really a european question in the beginning more of a U.S. thing but it turned into what the European's do because of their rules..

egontoast
Apr. 6, 2008, 06:48 PM
It's not a burning question in the dressage world because for the most part, no one cares.

I used cat whiskers as an example to show by analogy that it's odd to hear someone posting on a dressage board OMG what's wrong with you people that you don't shave your horses' faces. It's just not important in dressage.

Oh and the horses are turned out almost everyday and, no, I don't clip my cat's whiskers.:no:

The armpit stuff was a joke . Didn't realize this was such a serious issue for some people. hehe

hijumpin1
Apr. 6, 2008, 06:59 PM
What about mane pulling and tail banging...isn't that artifice too? Aren't braided manes itchy and uncomfortable for the horse? Left alone they will relish rubbing them out.

egontoast
Apr. 6, 2008, 07:05 PM
Um Sure there is artifice in all disciplines.


Not everyone likes the muzzle shaved. Not everyone likes the bridle path shaved half way down the neck as is done in some disciplines. Not everyone likes the pulled mane, etc etc.



Different styles. Different disciplines.

ridgeback
Apr. 6, 2008, 07:07 PM
It's not a burning question in the dressage world because for the most part, no one cares.

I used cat whiskers as an example to show by analogy that it's odd to hear someone posting on a dressage board OMG what's wrong with you people that you don't shave your horses' faces. It's just not important in dressage.

Oh and the horses are turned out almost everyday and, no, I don't clip my cat's whiskers.:no:

The armpit stuff was a joke . Didn't realize this was such a serious issue for some people. hehe

If you don't care I ask why are you in this thread.. We don't care that you think this is a stupid thread if it's so stupid stay out of it...Glad to hear your horses are turned out every day I'm sure there are many that wished they had that life...

egontoast
Apr. 6, 2008, 07:13 PM
We don't care that you think this is a stupid thread if it's so stupid stay out of it...


Hmmm. I didn't say it was a stupid thread .

Funny thing about discussion boards. You don't get to determine who posts on your threads.

Who are "we"? :confused:

ridgeback
Apr. 6, 2008, 07:50 PM
Hmmm. I didn't say it was a stupid thread .

Funny thing about discussion boards. You don't get to determine who posts on your threads.

Who are "we"? :confused:

Originally Posted by egontoast
It's not a burning question in the dressage world because for the most part, no one cares. "

I guess I took this as you thinking this was a stupid thread forgive me if I misunderstood. You misunderstood I'm fine and happy to have you on this thread I just asked why you are on it since you've made it clear by being a smart a** that this thread is beneath you;) Enjoy your evening..

coloredhorse
Apr. 6, 2008, 08:00 PM
Egon is often a smartass; I personally enjoy it and look forward to her postings. Don't take it so personally.

And it's true, no-one much cares about others' clipping or lack thereof in the dressage ring. Personally I hate long, flowing manes -- and if I were to own a Friesian or Andalusian or some other "hairy" beast, the mane would be pulled and all those annoying feathers shaved off! But some people love that look. I think it's cool that all sorts of trims are acceptable in the dressage arena; spend a day at a show and you can see all sorts of different attractive horses with all varieties of "show trims."

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 6, 2008, 08:48 PM
It is definitely a European thing. I was in a serious dressage barn back in the late 70's (yes, there was such a thing ;) ) and everyone clipped muzzles.

ASB Stars
Apr. 6, 2008, 08:58 PM
I came from the American Saddlebred show horse world, to hunters and jumpers, thence to dressage. American Saddlebred show horse people trim everything- and they think you are just not getting it if you take a horse to a show with fuzzy legs, muzzles ears, etc.

I do not trim my horses whiskers because somewhere along the way, I decided that they really do use them as feelers, and I won't deprive them of that use. When I take a horse to a show, I trim the edge of their ears, and the stuff that is sticking out, leaving the protection inside of the ear.

Are we going to talk about any correlation between waxing and trimming muzzles next? :lol:

Roan
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:00 PM
. . .Personally I hate long, flowing manes -- and if I were to own a Friesian or Andalusian or some other "hairy" beast, the mane would be pulled and all those annoying feathers shaved off! But some people love that look. I think it's cool that all sorts of trims are acceptable in the dressage arena; spend a day at a show and you can see all sorts of different attractive horses with all varieties of "show trims."

In breed shows -- Friesian, Spanish, Lipizzaner -- the horse has to be shown unpulled and unshaved and unbraided.

I once mentioned off-hand to some Lip people that I was thinking of pulling my mare's mane and I thought they were gonna have a coronary :D Boy, did I get a verbal slap-down. Heh.

Eileen

Peggy
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:03 PM
In breed shows -- Friesian, Spanish, Lipizzaner -- the horse has to be shown unpulled and unshaved and unbraided.

I once mentioned off-hand to some Lip people that I was thinking of pulling my mare's mane and I thought they were gonna have a coronary :D Boy, did I get a verbal slap-down. Heh.

Eileen
When we had both a dressage trainer and a HJ trainer at the barn, the hunter barn groom used to stand there with his clippers and a funny look in his eye when the Friesians walked by:lol:.

whbar158
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:08 PM
It just depends on what you do. As far as the ear hair goes, my mom would never clip out the inside when I was growing up, then once I was old enough I decided to clip it all out, know what? My horse had much cleaner ears! Weird I know, maybe it is because it was easier for me to see when they got dirty? Not sure, and I do clip his eye things off, and my horse doesn't run into things and doesn't get hurt and yes he gets turned out, it doesn't bother him for me to do so either. Now pulling a mane I HATE that, but I think that is because I have a sensitive head :lol: Now I do like the way it looks afterwards but I hate doing that!

Roan
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:13 PM
When we had both a dressage trainer and a HJ trainer at the barn, the hunter barn groom used to stand there with his clippers and a funny look in his eye when the Friesians walked by:lol:.

HAH!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know that look! My trainer gets that look every time she sees my mare's fuzzy nose :lol:

Actually, soon as it gets warm enough for me to get the girl all white again, I'm going to trim her whiskers a tad and clip down the goat hairs and fetlocks. Probably add a wee bridle path as well.

Heh, maybe I'll roach her mane :yes: That'll give all the h/js a coronary, won't it? It's gonna be a couple of years before I haul my girl to any shows, so lots of time for it to grow back. *CACKLE!*

Eileen

egontoast
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:13 PM
As far as the ear hair goes, my mom would never clip out the inside when I was growing up, then once I was old enough I decided to clip it all out, know what?

I'm guessing your hearing improved?

Roan
Apr. 6, 2008, 09:16 PM
I'm guessing your hearing improved?

OMG I sprayed my monitor with gingerbread latte!

EVIL!

Eileen

Equa
Apr. 6, 2008, 10:49 PM
We don't have the Hunter fraternity over here (there is the odd bit of junior equitation, but it remains firmly part of the showjumping world). However we DO have show hack and show arabian People - who would Brazillian their horses if they could. Everything is clipped and shaved up the great wahzoo.

Maybe that's why we dressage/eventing people tend to clip out horses extraneous bit a lot less - so as to distance ourselves from the crazies.... rather than aligning with our European brethren.

Another point is - from a distance of about 10-15 metres, you can't really see the stray hairs and fluffy bits anyway.

I DO get rid of goatish beards, and the extra bits of hair coming out the ears that end up full of wax, but have stopped even clipping out legs. When ours get a full body clip, their legs are clipped "backwards", only using the clippers in the direction of the hair.

And one of my horses has has a patch of white on his bottom lip, and so has long grey/white muzzle hairs in a sea of black hairs. I shorten the white hairs as they look really weird. Otherwise the whiskers stay on all our horses.

A few years ago, I let the clipper do a complete number on an older FEI level horse. The weather turned nasty the day of the big competition, and he was really distracted by rain in his ears, and the feeling of sandy water spattering up onto his face without being warned by his whiskers.

I understand the feeling about Fresian fetlocks - but only when I see people put white bandages over the top, with a strange outpouring below - makes me want to go snip snip snip. And regarding roached manes - you should see the looks the polo ponies get at the Royal Easter show when the show hack people can deign to glance at them. Shaved heads! Priceless!

ise@ssl
Apr. 7, 2008, 01:18 AM
Clipping the inside of the ears isn't just about how clean the inside of the ear looks to you - it's about the inner part of the ear that you CAN'T see and having insects and dirt get into that part of the ear. This can cause some serious problems and also be very uncomfortable for the horse.

Kareen
Apr. 7, 2008, 03:27 AM
The UK is in the EU.

Technically yes but they never ever seem to process any of the EU-guidelines *LOL* At least they still don't accept Euros in any of their stores, haven't got the equine passport thingy resolved and sure enough they insist on driving on the other side hehe. Besides just about every Britain I know refers to the continent as 'Europe' while they consider the Commonwealth as being 'us'.
I can't blame them. Many Germans would like to do the same but somehow our government doesn't comply *LOL*.

TobySocks
Apr. 7, 2008, 04:48 AM
In Denmark clipping muzzles and inside ears is considered cruel. I thought it was prohibited, but I've just checked, and it isn't actually illegal by law or rules. But the common perception is that it's not allowed, and it's definitely not accepted.

No matter what we do, the fact that we ride them and keep them as pets is unnatural for horses. Everything we do with horses is a compromise between whet we want and what the horses need, and different people make different compromises.

There will always be differences between cultures and discipline, not only with hair, but fashion, tack, feeding etc. There are lots of people who think a double bridle is cruel, and we thinks it's a refining tool. Or shoes are cruel. Or feeding grain is cruel. Or individual turn out is cruel.

Re: hypocrisy - Denmark has just passed a law regarding the welfare of horses. This law specifies a set of minimum requirements. For ex standing stalls are banned, minimum size requirements for stalls, the amount of natural light and air circulation in the stable, ceiling height, access to turn out of a minimum size, horses must be turned out or exercised a min of 2 hours daily 5 days a week etc.

coloredhorse
Apr. 7, 2008, 08:32 AM
When we had both a dressage trainer and a HJ trainer at the barn, the hunter barn groom used to stand there with his clippers and a funny look in his eye when the Friesians walked by:lol:.

:lol::lol::lol:That would be me!:lol::lol::lol:

Seriously, I just hate all the extraneous hair. There would be no breed shows for me if I owned such a beast. But I have no problem with people who do like hairy horses; if that floats your boat, fine. Just makes my fingers itch for my pulling comb. :winkgrin:

slc2
Apr. 7, 2008, 08:45 AM
there are those who will say CLIPPING the inside of the ear is what lets all the bugs and debris get into the ear!

And I think that's true. I never clip the insides. I do clean the inside of the ear, and actually, when grooming for others, I thought the horses with the insides of their ears clipped had FAR more debris, plaques and irritation inside their ears than my horses did.

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 7, 2008, 09:18 AM
I just can't agree though with the thought that clipping the inside of ears and muzzle is cruel, but the top of the tail is not. That is what sends to me a clear message that it really is not what they think is cruel, but simply a matter of taste & style, or they would give up that practice too. Personally, I have no problem with muzzle clipping, but would never clip the top of tails, or inside ears.

ridgeback
Apr. 7, 2008, 09:34 AM
I just can't agree though with the thought that clipping the inside of ears and muzzle is cruel, but the top of the tail is not. That is what sends to me a clear message that it really is not what they think is cruel, but simply a matter of taste & style, or they would give up that practice too. Personally, I have no problem with muzzle clipping, but would never clip the top of tails, or inside ears.

I have to agree with you.. I'm all for animals being treated correctly but when you make rules/laws saying it's cruel to clip their muzzle but they only have to be out of their box 2 hours a day just doesn't make a bit of sense to me.. If you don't want to clip your horse more power to you but when you are not ALLOWED or would be judged for this just seems a bit extreme..Most health issues with horses are more due to them being locked up then there nose being clipped...

Roan
Apr. 7, 2008, 09:47 AM
I have to agree with you.. I'm all for animals being treated correctly but when you make rules/laws saying it's cruel to clip their muzzle but they only have to be out of their box 2 hours a day just doesn't make a bit of sense to me.. If you don't want to clip your horse more power to you but when you are not ALLOWED or would be judged for this just seems a bit extreme..Most health issues with horses are more due to them being locked up then there nose being clipped...

A lot of dressage horses are not allowed out at *all* for fear that they will incur debilitating or aesthetic injury. Heaven forbid that 2" scar gained whilst having fun with other horses!

Two hours a day means a lot to those horses and is a vast improvement over no time at all. Pity we do not have those type of laws in North America.

Eileen

ridgeback
Apr. 7, 2008, 09:50 AM
A lot of dressage horses are not allowed out at *all* for fear that they will incur debilitating or aesthetic injury. Heaven forbid that 2" scar gained whilst having fun with other horses!

Two hours a day means a lot to those horses and is a vast improvement over no time at all. Pity we do not have those type of laws in North America.

Eileen

Agreed:D not for the laws but for the common sense that horses need to get out,move around and graze..

Tory Relic
Apr. 7, 2008, 10:46 AM
Very interesting and sometimes humorous thread.

I don't compete, so I don't clip faces, jowls, fetlocks or anything. If I were competing, I'd probably clip some of the nose/jowl hair, leave the eyebrows, and trim the ear hair even with the outside of the hair. I do not clip the inside of the ears, don't believe in it personally, but I'm not going to criticize others for doing.

I do bang the tail and clip a bridle path. Mane pulling? Sometimes.

2DogsFarm
Apr. 7, 2008, 11:55 AM
When I showed H/J (generally B-rated shows and local circuit) I had a running argument with the trainer.
I'd tell her not to clip Vern's ears/muzzle/eyelashes and 9 times out of 10 if I wasn't there she "forgot" to inform the groom and I had a H/J Slick Baldfaced horse :mad:

When I showed independently I'd clean up the goat whiskers under his jaw, do the fold 'n clip on the ears (remove hairs visible outside the fold only) and neaten up the fetlocks. Mane was always neatly pulled & braided (which I paid for, I can't braid worth Jack) and tail left in a natural brush.

The few times I showed dressage - at lower levels only - I just pulled his mane to a neat length and showed him unbraided.
Never seemed to affect his scores, or at least was not mentioned in judges' comments.

For clinics I always tried to make sure he was clean & neat (me too) out of respect for the clinician.

I don't think it harms the horse to be spit-polished & denuded, but Why?
Surely any judge is looking for performance in both disciplines and would overlook a little excess fuzz as long as the horse presented is otherwise clean & shiny.

ridgeback
Apr. 7, 2008, 12:47 PM
I don't think it harms the horse to be spit-polished & denuded, but Why?
Surely any judge is looking for performance in both disciplines and would overlook a little excess fuzz as long as the horse presented is otherwise clean & shiny.

Because it looks neat and imo looks better.. The same reason why most women pluck or wax their eyebrows..

egontoast
Apr. 7, 2008, 01:34 PM
The same reason why most women pluck or wax their eyebrows

Ok this explains a lot. I guess you are stuck in the 70's.

ridgeback
Apr. 7, 2008, 01:42 PM
Ok this explains a lot. I guess you are stuck in the 70's.

LOL so you don't.. now that explains alot:)

JSwan
Apr. 7, 2008, 01:52 PM
I dunno about all this "cruel" labeling. Geez. People need to really get out there and see some real cruelty before deciding that clipping some nose hairs is cruel.

I've always clipped or otherwise neatened up my horses. I even - gasp - body clip.

They have managed to eke out an existence........somehow....

If folks don't want to - I don't give a rip. Seems rather ironic to call it cruel since the countries that have a problem with it don't mind actually eating the horse; which in the US is an anathema.

egontoast
Apr. 7, 2008, 01:52 PM
Actually, ridgeback, I don't know anyone who does pluck their eyebrows who is under the age of 70.

I don't think it is cruel for humans either, JS.

I just think it is unnecessary, and as said throughout this thread, a matter of personal preference.

It's not significant in the dressage world unless you have a trainer with that background.

ridgeback
Apr. 7, 2008, 01:55 PM
Actually, ridgeback, I don't know anyone who does pluck their eyebrows who is under the age of 70.

Well Egontoast I know plenty of teenagers that do...I happen to either have mine waxed or threaded...:lol::lol: But I think you are missing the point:winkgrin:

JSwan
Apr. 7, 2008, 02:03 PM
egon - I wasn't responding directly to you - sorry if that wasn't clear. It was kind of just a general comment. I just found it odd that anyone would think it was cruel. I could see a case for cruelty with a blind horse or something like that.

You're right - it really isn't necessary to clip at all. When my guys are not in work - they go back to looking like something the cat dragged in.

Other than having an itchy spot scratched, horses seem to like being messed with about as much as a toddler having his face washed by his mommy. They tolerate it because they have to - but they really want to go outside and play. :D

2DogsFarm
Apr. 7, 2008, 02:10 PM
ridgeback & egontoast kiss & make up or I'll turn this thread around!

FWIW I used to have to tweeze or live with unibrow, but now that I am {ahem} a certain age (Not yet 70!) I seldom need to pluck a stray.
So Aging has some benefits...

egontoast
Apr. 7, 2008, 02:13 PM
Well Egontoast I know plenty of teenagers that do...I happen to either have mine waxed or threaded...

Go figure. I had you pegged much older than that.

FancyFree
Apr. 7, 2008, 02:17 PM
What an interesting thread! I don't have one woman friend who doesn't pluck or wax. We're not over 70 either. Maybe it's a regional thing?

I like a nicely groomed horse. Different strokes and all.

ridgeback
Apr. 7, 2008, 02:22 PM
Go figure. I had you pegged much older than that.

Oh I am older 42 on April 24th.. feel free to send me a happy birthday note:lol: I just know a lot of teenagers from horse shows... I often help my trainer friend at the shows and he has a lot of kids that rode with him..

egontoast
Apr. 7, 2008, 02:23 PM
I think it looks tacky. Like jeans with a pressed crease and stilettos.

Just personal preference, again.:)

Mozart
Apr. 7, 2008, 02:33 PM
I think it looks tacky. Like jeans with a pressed crease and stilettos.

Just personal preference, again.:)

If you think tidied up eyebrows are tacky...then you just don't know anyone who does it well ;) When done well, you don't look at someone and think "omg plucked eyebrows"

Re:horses
It is sort of an interesting anomaly that riders wear tails but the horses can sometimes be rather fuzzy. I suspect that the greatest influence on the whiskered dressage horses of today is the European influence.

ridgeback
Apr. 7, 2008, 02:46 PM
I think it looks tacky. Like jeans with a pressed crease and stilettos.

Just personal preference, again.:)

Hmmmm..interesting.. Well some of us don't want to look like men...I have brook shields eyebrows so I have to wax/thread..

ESG
Apr. 7, 2008, 05:34 PM
Actually, ridgeback, I don't know anyone who does pluck their eyebrows who is under the age of 70.

Is the weather nice in your world? C'mon, eggy - you're getting a bit ridiculous now.


I don't think it is cruel for humans either, JS.

You're right, there. I can finally pluck my eyebrows and not tear up. Or even blink, for that matter. And, if I didn't pluck weekly, I'd have a unibrow, or its first cousin. Good old Mediterranean blood; dark eyes, olive skin, and women with excess facial hair. Gotta love us. :D

JSwan
Apr. 7, 2008, 09:07 PM
I could have lived quite happily without knowing that much about all y'all. :winkgrin:

egontoast
Apr. 7, 2008, 09:43 PM
Well some of us don't want to look like men


Oh, Ok, I get it now. You have to pluck your eyebrows so you won't be mistaken for a man. My heart goes out to you. Do what you must do!:)

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 7, 2008, 09:48 PM
Like jeans with a pressed crease :)

aaahhhh that takes me back :lol: 1970 I had creased jeans for camping. :eek: :D cuz, ya know, you never know when a cute teenage guy might appear in the woods. :cool:

(I guess now you would probably run for your lives)

ESG
Apr. 7, 2008, 10:06 PM
Y'all have obviously not been anywhere near Houston of late. Creased jeans that are frayed at the hem from being too long, starched shirts and big-buckle belts are still de rigeur for cowboys hereabouts. ;) Along with fur felt hats for winter, and straw for summer, of course.

Tiligsmom
Apr. 8, 2008, 12:24 AM
Well, I clip my gelding's muzzle, chin, bridle path, fetlocks and dock and trim his tail. It's a personal preference for me. I board in a barn where most of the other dressagers let their mounts go about with whiskers. No one is worse for the wear.

I just think it looks untidy to have all of those whiskers poking out.

I'm also under 70 and get my eyebrows waxed regularly. In fact, most of the professional women I work with get theirs done as well - and I work with highly educated "liberated" women :winkgrin:

Equilibrium
Apr. 8, 2008, 12:56 AM
When I first moved here I wanted to find out why people banged the tails at the hocks.

One month into rainy muddy winter and you would know. If you don't bang, you will have a horse with no tail come spring.

Well I guess if you kept them in you wouldn't, but we don't. Maybe on the continent horses aren't getting turned out, but most people in England and Ireland do make sure horses get out. Heck even the racehorses are out every day for quite a while depending on the weather and that's when their in training.

Most clipping over here is done while leaving the legs with all the hair to protect from the environment. Obviously the ones going to Spain on the Sunshine Tour would probably be clipped up.

I have trimmed whiskers here with scissors before going to a show and was not banned. My friend also always scissored her daughters horses before going to shows as well. No hoopla there either. I do leave ear hair in and just trim the outside.

And chin hairs, well I've never seen as much chin hair as I have on my 2 warmbloods. Like wooly mammoths! Their youngsters so I haven't actually gone cutting yet, but that will clipped off this winter, that's for sure!

Terri

Kareen
Apr. 8, 2008, 02:08 AM
I'm not quite sure where this 'Europe doesn't turnout' idea comes from. Must be from foreigners spending too much time in freak dressage barns vs. the normal horseworld.
The big thing about muzzle and inside ear hair is that it doesn't compare to tail or any other hair but it it medically spoken in fact a tactile organ.
If you are looking for human hair to compare it to, it would be like eyelashes rather than eyebrows. Now I haven't seen any human get rid of their eyelashes on purpose unless they had to have ocular surgery. Tactile hair has specialized receptive cells near its root and does have potentially life-saving properties (e.g. prevent the feeding horse from taking up detrimental agents). Have you ever heard of a horse that died from a blow of wind around their clipped tailroot? I have not. But there are horses that get killed from accidentally picking up stuff they shouldn't have incorporated to begin with. For instance I've known a horse that was scoped for an incurable cough and inspiratory breath noise and what we found was a piece of bridleleather stuck in its throat. And that horse's mouth was clipped which is not much of a significant statement but I just think it does make a difference whether you clip your horse and cover it with a blanket for convenience or to remove tactile hair that is irreplacible.
And to say the horses don't suffer from it is a pretty lucid statement. Much like to say a child with a palatecleft doesn't suffer because it behaves normally.
I have zero problem with owners deciding they want to clip coverhair for convenience or cosmetic reasons as long as they make sure to get the blanketing straight. But the tactile hair should definitely remain on.

One could argue that any hair has tactile receptors at the bottom but the point is that to function as a tactile organ in the first place you need both the length of the handle and a special equipment below. I don't think anybody will argue that most horses do not naturally tolerate being touched in the insides of their ears. It takes conditioning or restrictive measures to make them tolerate it. So even in laymen logic it would seem there is a significant difference between inside ear hair and tail hair that is equiped for mechanical protection only.

canticle
Apr. 8, 2008, 08:25 AM
I think clipping the muzzle is no big deal, and I've never seen a horse harmed by it. I do think it is much worse to body clip and blanket the horse. It messes with their ability to adjust to temperatures themselves. And shoeing is probably the worst thing you can do, by nailing a piece of METAL into an organ. :no:

ridgeback
Apr. 8, 2008, 11:50 AM
Oh, Ok, I get it now. You have to pluck your eyebrows so you won't be mistaken for a man. My heart goes out to you. Do what you must do!:)

:lol::lol: No way I could be mistaken for a man God blessed or cursed me with a chest:) :eek:

JRG
Apr. 8, 2008, 12:25 PM
Fairview Horse Center, you can google search and come up with all sorts of research from horses, cats, dogs rats you name it. It is called Tactile sensing, how whiskers are used in the animal kingdom inaddition to many other tactile sensing.

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 8, 2008, 12:41 PM
Sorry, not finding any research on horses' whiskers. Tactile sensing is part of ALL hair. That is why they can sense a fly landing in them.

TBrescue
Apr. 8, 2008, 12:51 PM
I think clipping the muzzle is no big deal, and I've never seen a horse harmed by it. I do think it is much worse to body clip and blanket the horse. It messes with their ability to adjust to temperatures themselves. And shoeing is probably the worst thing you can do, by nailing a piece of METAL into an organ. :no:


I think canticle's on to something here...all this discussion about a little "trim" and I'd bet y'all have no problem nailing metal shoes to your horses feet:yes::yes::yes::yes:

MeredithTX
Apr. 8, 2008, 01:06 PM
Maybe it's because I come from a hunter background, but I always clip my horse before shows. I have gotten less diligent about the ears over time and leave most of the inside hair, but I definitely trim the edges and neaten things up. He stays fuzzy in the off season unless we're going to a bigger clinic. I've never felt like one of my horses had a problem because I clipped the muzzle and eye hairs off.

Kareen
Apr. 8, 2008, 03:39 PM
http://www.tierschutz-tvt.de/merkblatt61.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/july2004/research/2004_03_research02.htm

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/63000430/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

canticle
Apr. 8, 2008, 06:56 PM
http://www.naturalhoof.co.nz/covers.html

JRG
Apr. 8, 2008, 08:12 PM
Not just hair. Do the research. You are incorrect.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not into letting the horse live as he would in the wild, lets face it we add stresses to the horses body. I am just into preserving what is natural in helping the horse with normal functions.

egontoast
Apr. 8, 2008, 08:33 PM
This is a strange thread. It's not like someone on this board posted a thread crapping on hunter de-hairing styles. Didn't happen.

AGAIN. I think most dressage people DON"T CARE whether or not you shave your horse's muzzle or think it is particularly cruel if you do it or if you pluck your nose hairs or shape your eyebrows so you won't be mistaken for a man.

IT"S OK but not everyone thinks it is lovely!

ridgeback
Apr. 8, 2008, 08:38 PM
This is a strange thread. It's not like someone on this board posted a thread crapping on hunter de-hairing styles. Didn't happen.

AGAIN. I think most dressage people DON"T CARE whether or not you shave your horse's muzzle or think it is particularly cruel if you do it or if you pluck your nose hairs or shape your eyebrows so you won't be mistaken for a man.

IT"S OK but not everyone thinks it is lovely!

Again I'm not sure why you keep coming back if you think it's so strange...And maybe you are right when you say most don't care but guess what we don't care what most think.. Even the people that don't agree have been respectful is that what pisses you off?

egontoast
Apr. 8, 2008, 08:51 PM
My comment was polite. Not sure why you are flipping out.:confused:

There's no rule here that if you think something is strange, you are not permitted to express an opinion.

By the way


“You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.” Buddha

ridgeback
Apr. 8, 2008, 09:03 PM
My comment was polite. Not sure why you are flipping out.:confused:

There's no rule here that if you think something is strange, you are not permitted to express an opinion.

By the way



Flipping out:lol::lol::lol::lol::no::no::eek:

Mac123
Apr. 8, 2008, 09:20 PM
http://www.naturalhoof.co.nz/covers.html


So...do earings make my ears colder? :lol: (Of course referencing the hypothesis that the metal nails in the hoof make the hooves cold).

FWIW, my horses aren't any colder without their wiskers. AND, they are noticibly toasty and comfortable in their rugs. When they fluff their fur, the are notibly cold and uncomfortable and get much happier when I toss on a sheet.

Actually, the one time my horse was truly miserable was when he was turned out 24/7 for a winter and wasn't blanketed. He was out with a herd, on pasture, with a 3 sided shelter, supplemented with hay and grain and alfalfa pellets, AND was barefoot. Go figure. :rolleyes: (I ended up blanketing him and he was more comfortable, but living out just wasn't his thing. He's more of a 1/2 and 1/2 guy).


Off Topic, but I just couldn't resist.....

As to the topic at hand, I trim whiskers, goat hair, bridlepath, and I clean up the ears only if showing but don't trim inside them. Leave the eye whiskers. My friend and I call those long fuzzies that stick out of their ears "Einsteins." I hate to shave them, really. They're so cute.

I shave their legs up to the knees as here horses tend to get scratches and fungus and this helps easily wash and dry the lower legs. I bodyclip horses that are in active work in the winter, but I avoid doing so to horses that tend to be more sensitive to the cold or tend to be tight horses.

I bang tails as this aids growth and keeps them tidier.

I'm pretty meticulous about turnout.

Equilibrium
Apr. 9, 2008, 12:40 AM
[QUOTE=Kareen;3130881]I'm not quite sure where this 'Europe doesn't turnout' idea comes from. Must be from foreigners spending too much time in freak dressage barns vs. the normal horseworld.

Yeah, I wonder too. I guess it's sort of like all the Europeans feeling sorry for the horses going off to America to spend their life worked only in an arena.

I find it quite amussing all the assumptions I've found about my fellow country folk whilst living here.

But having lived in both places, both sides make stupid assumptions about one another.

Terri

JSwan
Apr. 9, 2008, 08:42 AM
My comment was polite. Not sure why you are flipping out.:confused:

There's no rule here that if you think something is strange, you are not permitted to express an opinion.

By the way

egon - every time I want to read something strange, I visit the dressage forum! It never fails to satisfy!:lol:

Never seen so many people arguing over how many angles can dance on the head of a pin. Quite entertaining. :winkgrin:

To clip, or not to clip. Who gives a crap.

tabula rashah
Apr. 9, 2008, 09:39 AM
I don't show anymore, but even so my horses all have clipped muzzles, bridlepaths, jaws and the edges of ears. I do eyes if I'm going to be in public and inside of ears if for some reason I would show and it's not winter. I do not do fetlocks because it rains a lot here and if I do, I am just asking for a case of scratches. I refuse, however, to bang a tail or pull a mane ( I think both look ridiculous). BTW, my horses are out 24/7 and I've never seen a one of them have a problem because their muzzle is shaved. I always think when I am at dressage shows, that most of the horses look untidy compared to my trail horses.

Auventera Two
Apr. 9, 2008, 10:33 AM
A lot of dressage horses are not allowed out at *all* for fear that they will incur debilitating or aesthetic injury. Heaven forbid that 2" scar gained whilst having fun with other horses!

Two hours a day means a lot to those horses and is a vast improvement over no time at all. Pity we do not have those type of laws in North America.

Eileen

That goes for pretty much ANY show horse. Every day I drive past a western pleasure and hunter show barn. I was curious about taking some lessons there so I stopped in one day. There are around 120 stalls. No acreage, no pastures, not even a SINGLE turnout paddock. NOT ONE. Some of the horses at that barn barely get out of their stalls all winter The trainer said it's a real shame but some people only show up once a month all winter and then as show season starts, they hire her to work the horse 6 days a week to prep it. I asked if the horses go bezerk with zero turnout and zero work. She said no, not really. They do the "normal" stuff like crib and weave but they're all easy to handle when you clean stalls and stuff. Well, sorry but that's not "normal" to me. :eek:

When I lived in TN I drove past many walking horse barns that didn't have a single turnout paddock one.

All show disciplines have a healthy dose of members on the lunatic fringe.

I wouldn't keep my own horses locked up 24/7 but as long as it's not ilegal, people will keep locking them up for years wondering why they suffer navicular, colic, cribbing, chronic thrush, weaving, anxiety, ulcers, etc.

When I took lessons at that show barn, almost half the horses wore cribbing collars. Some had trenches dug in their stalls from weaving. One horse had his stall covered in sheet metal because he'd chewed through all the wood. Something is REALLY wrong here, but as long as there's a 23 cent blue ribbon in the pot, come hell or high water, that horse ain't going outside.

I trim long, unruly hairs but I don't shave ears, whiskers, or eyebrows. The only thing I've ever shaved is mane and forelock (roach.) I used to keep fetlock hair trimmed pretty short but I quit that. I do cut tails straight across the bottom and keep manes and bridlepaths trimmed and upkept.