What kind of training is this?

[blondmane]

I have a new student that started riding with me last week. She has 2 horses: a friesian mare and the foal. She boards them at another farm about 35 minutes away. She contacted me because the farm where she boards does not have lesson horses and she wants to learn to ride. And she has the "trainer" riding and training her mare. The trainer really doesn't have any experience in dressage, is more of what I call a "winglish" rider who has converted. The trainer takes lessons from a "high school" trainer in the area. The trainer, who owns the farm with her hubby, will not let the owner ride the horse. Says she will ruin her and that the trainer wants to show the horse at USDF shows this year. Ok, fine.

Last week the owner was telling me about her beautiful mare and how the trainer is riding the horse in a double bridle. WTF? And the horse was just started under saddle less than a year ago? And the horse is going to be shown training level? I nicely explain you can't show training in a double bridle and the owner repeats the BS that the trainer is giving her.

I follow the German Training Scale and honestly have NEVER thought to put a young horse in a double bridle. I am schooling 3rd on 2 of my horses and just introduced the double to one of them in January. Is this trainer trying to take shortcuts by making the horse seem more in a frame or on the bit?

What school of training is this?

[Ambrey]

Is it spanish/mexican training? Around here, I usually hear "high school," (alta escuela) associated with Mexican horse training methods, often using Andalusian or Andalusian crosses. No idea about the double bridle though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idA7339DQJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOTiyfDM2hs

[-sans-]

I agree with you, i think it`s spanish school too...

[blondmane]

High school training is stuff like teaching the horse to bow, roll over, etc.

I've heard the double bridle training referred to as french.... Definitely not spanish!

[oldschool]

gee, what do you think? Like the rest of society, standards just get lower and lower. Many think that being in a double bridle shows how sophisticated you are. People actually in the know realize that draw reins a/o double bridle are a recipe for disaster and future soundness and behavior problems. A lot of trainers are so desperate to "known" that they use any promising up and comng horse to get them moe clients. My trainer told me I should try draw rins or a double so I could better "control" my horse but I am a fervent reader of classical dressage and watch Reiner Klimke tapes all the time and I refuse to go there. He only rode his Grand Prix horses in a double a few days before a show. They simply deaden a horse to the primary aids of seat,then legs , THEN last of all, the bit or bridle. Good Luck, you'll need it in this fight.

[blondmane]

oldschool I TOTALLY agree with you! Shortcuts!!!

The other thing about this is that the owner is "sneaking" to my barn to take lessons from me. After she took one she said I teach totally differently than the trainer who is riding her horse. I'm not feeling comfortable with the sneaking, so maybe I should just tell her that she should think about moving the horses here and actually RIDE her own horse - even at the walk! That way she's learning the correct methods, I could teach her horse using the correct methods and she could actually communicate with the horse in a language it understands!

[Beasmom]

EEK!

Suggest some good books or articles explaining the German Training Scale to your student. She needs to be armed with good information. Sounds like this "trainer" is giving her a snow job.

I would never work with a trainer who refuses to let me ride my own horse. The least she could do is allow the student to cool her horse down after work at the walk. If the trainer is worth her salt, she could give the woman lunge lessons on the horse -- providing she gave the horse good basics on the lunge line...

Wow, we all seemed to post at the same time! Blondemane, I'm with you regarding the sneaking stuff. Student would be better off moving her horses to you. With one trainer training one way, and the other another, there WILL be confusion.

[Ambrey]

The other thing about this is that the owner is "sneaking" to my barn to take lessons from me. After she took one she said I teach totally differently than the trainer who is riding her horse. I'm not feeling comfortable with the sneaking, so maybe I should just tell her that she should think about moving the horses here and actually RIDE her own horse - even at the walk! That way she's learning the correct methods, I could teach her horse using the correct methods and she could actually communicate with the horse in a language it understands!

If the horse is only 1 year under saddle and she doesn't know how to ride, the trainer might have a reason for not wanting her to ride the horse yet.

Just a thought :)

[slc2]

It's not spanish and it's not shortcuts, though there very most DEFINITELY is a saddleseat-style class for Frieisians with double bridles and the whole nine yards. I saw pics of one the other day and I thought 'well DAMN! Look at that!'

If not, if it's dressage the lady says she's doing, it's called the 'I Smile While You Write Me a Check' school. :lol::lol:

Seriously, there are people out there - experts who have brought a number of youngsters along to top scores at the top levels, who are very adept with a double bridle and have used it for years on many horses. They actually do bring it into their schooling fairly early - about 2nd level, with specific horses. Usually they don't even pick up the curb rein for some time, it just is knotted up and sets on the neck(that's why the curb rein has that little slider on it), if they do even pick it up, they don't appear to use it much at all.

You won't find any of them putting a double on a horse prematurely to make it 'look' like a dressage horse', put it 'in a frame', with its 'chin tucked in'.

Seriously, most people don't have a clue about dressage and there is all sorts of nutty stuff going on out there. There is someone out there who will fall for anything, no matter how goofy and how wierd.

Most of these guys are very good at marketing. They'll tell you you're ignorant, don't understand classical dressage, don't you know Baucher rode babies in a double bridle and they did grand prix three months after they were broke to saddle, don't you know the greatest vaqueros and Olivera rode babies in a double bridle, blah blah blah.

[WBLover]

I have heard of a lady who trained with a Portugese trainer that introduces the double when the horse is going around 1st level--nooooooooo, not for me!

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Gosh, I started with a double bridle after only 3 months, and I thought that was slow. 'Course, we started the baby doing Grand Prix jumpers, so that probably slowed down the dressage side of things. After all, he was only 2! And all that rollkur stuff makes it hard to jump 6' fences because they can't get a good look at them before they jump.

[blondmane]

OMG you guys are TOO funny! Seriously, I tried to explain to her that it is taking shortcuts with her horse's training, but she just gave me the deer in the headlights look. But then starts complaining, blah blah. I guess I can keep trying to teach her the basics and ask her not to tell me about her horses and the other trainer.

Why are there so many gulible people!

[slc2]

Can you say,'I am being put in a very bad position'? because you are.

[Jeepers]

It's not spanish and it's not shortcuts, though there very most DEFINITELY is a saddleseat-style class for Frieisians with double bridles and the whole nine yards. I saw pics of one the other day and I thought 'well DAMN! Look at that!'


Yep, I briefly worked at a farm that showed friesians in saddleseat. It was interesting...

I bet they're doing it to try to fight the natural tendency of a Friesian's head to be up high with their nose sticking out. :no:

[slc2]

That has to be it! :lol:

Honestly, I think given enough time, there will be saddle seat classes for every animal with four legs. Kudu saddle seat, Wildebeast saddleseat, Musk Ox saddleseat....

[blondmane]

Saddleseat for llamas!

[merrygoround]

This is one I'd have to see before I made a comment. It always amazes me that there are so many "great" riders out there, who can't really sit the trot.

So, putting a double on a relatively green horse doesn't really surprise me. You have to take it from whence it cometh.

[oldschool]

Dear Blondemane, I would be very careful about "sneaking" a client over to your place or convincing them to cometo you. The truth always has a way of coming out and hard feelings ensue with a fellow trainer. Who knows? you might need to buy or sell a horse to that person some day. Clients come abd go and in dressage , prove to be quite fickle but if you seriously want longevity in this career, remember, you'll be seeing this other trainer at shows, etc., Clear the air, give the woman a copy of the training scale, let her make a decision. Plus, I hope people were seriously joking when they posted about doubles in the first year. Ha! Ha! Tell me another one!!

[eqsiu]

Saddleseat for llamas!

You know, a llama is built better for saddleseat than many horses. :yes::lol:

[blondmane]

oldschool - this woman BEGGED ME for lessons! At first when she called I said no, I didn't feel comfortable with her taking lessons from me and having her horses at another barn. Then after 25 minutes of her pleading I agreed. Had her come to watch a lesson and watch me ride a young horse (hoping she'd see how I work with the youngsters). She came last week for her first lesson and is truly a beginner. Says she's never been taught to ride before. Blah blah. I let the $ convince me to let her schedule another lesson. She came yesterday and actually did some posting trot. I couldn't get her alone to talk to her about my thoughts on her constantly talking about her horses with this other person, who quite honestly has NEVER been on the dressage circuit and is a convert from western pleasure. The woman just keeps telling me all the strange things that go on at this other farm, yet seems ok with letting someone else dictate who, when, where and why she can ride or handle her own horses.

And yes, she told me that this trainer had been riding her horse in a DOUBLE BRIDLE and that it had only been under saddle for a year. I think the mare is either 5 or 7. And that they WEAR SPURS when riding. WTF?

So in answer to your comment, I am not encouraging this woman to sneak to my barn. She's insisting she take lessons from ME.

[goingforbaroque]

Honestly, if I was you I would find a way to gracefully "loose" her as a client. No matter how much you want to educate her she sounds like she won't be good for business in the long run. The saying is "You can lead a human to knowledge but you can't make them think". It sounds like she needs to educate herself and make her own decisions. I've been in the same situation and it has always bitten me in the behind. If you do keep her be as professional as possible and DO NOT say anything bad about her other trainer!!!!! In any way, shape or form even if she asks!!!! be very non judgmental and mater of fact!!! If she is saying things, even innocently, about the other trainer I am sure she'll be saying something about you.

[Auventera Two]

I always thought the doma classica style of spanish vaquera riding employed the use of the double much earlier than modern dressage does. No time to look up references, but maybe Daydream Believer will chime in, as she has spanish horses. Here's one link I was able to find quickly.

http://www.horsegazette.com/Monthly_Features/06-Dec/FranciscoTrevino.html

[goingforbaroque]

Actually, a while back I talked to a breeder of Andalusians in Spain and he said that the horses seem to prefer the double bridle/curb to snaffles. Having ridded numerous baroque and baroque crosses I have found this quite true, but then again I can ride:lol: I have ridden many that went much better in a double then a snaffle and took a more consistent contact in it. Go figure!

[oldschool]

dear blondemane, I didn't mean to offend you . I know you weren't soliciting someone else's client. All I'm saying is that people like this are nothing but trouble . They get a kick out of playing two sides against each other. Even if the other trainer isn't on the "circuit", she may well be one day, you never know. I can tell you from experience to keep an arms length from these drama queens. They make you feel like you're the best thing since sliced bread and then one day, bite you in the haunches.We all need $$ right now but look down the road a bit. Isn't that what Dressage is all about anyway?

[slc2]

In a way I can agree, a clinician came to our barn and basically told my trainer 'you don't need this kind of trouble, get rid of ' a person who was causing a lot of trouble.

But what I think is, a great many people, especially new to the trainer/student relationship, have NO IDEA anything they're saying could cause any problem. And I don't know if they really need to get the old heave ho quite so quick.

'Mary, I want you to understand...I can answer any specific questions you have about how I train, but I am not going to judge other trainers'.

One trainer I worked with ALWAYS gave a completely blank look when ANYONE was brought up and said, 'I have no idea how he trains, I can tell you how I train, but that's all'. It really was the perfect way to shut off all but the most determined pot stirrers - 'I don't discuss it' stopped the rest.

The student would probably protest that they meant no harm and say they will try to reword questions accordingly.

[blondmane]

Oldschool - no offense taken:)

I will just go with slc2's advice and not talk about the other horses anymore! Someone else on UDBB mentioned the owner might be trying to stir the pot and play 2 sides against each other. Time to nip it in the butt and just teach!

[oldschool]

That is a great way to address the issue. I'm not a trainer but alot of women at mt barn(it's huge!) are always asking me what I think about one trainer or another. I'm ashamed to say i let my tongue slip here and there but for the most part, I try to remind myself that I don't necessarily know th ins and outs of a particular situation. "Judge not lest ye be judged". When there are 20 Dressage trainers at one stable and they are all fighting for clients, it gets pretty ugly. I just want to have fun, show a little, etc. So SLC, I will from now on do what you said and say I don't know anything about someone elses training but this is what I subscribe to. Thanks for the great advice

[RedMare01]

slc is correct...there are saddleseat classes for Friesians. (Some pics here (scroll down): http://www.tanbarkacres.com/photos/statesville2004.shtml )

I have a feeling that the woman is a complete novice and can't tell the difference between upper level dressage and saddleseat. She probably thinks the horse is being trained in dressage, when in reality it is saddleseat.

Caitlin

[snoopy]

Is it spanish/mexican training? Around here, I usually hear "high school," (alta escuela) associated with Mexican horse training methods, often using Andalusian or Andalusian crosses. No idea about the double bridle though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idA7339DQJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOTiyfDM2hs



One of my horses explays this sort of behaviour when he is pissed off....:eek:

[egontoast]

I don't think some horses 'prefer' the curb. I think some people who can't get their horse to accept or seek the snaffle can get a pretty 'frame' in the curb.

So horse is behind the bit ,slightly, but looks nice. The curb refines the connection but should not be a replacement for the snaffle (in dressage)

That's not to say that talented trainers can't put a young horse in a double if they ALREADY have the good connection with the bit.

[goingforbaroque]

I don't think some horses 'prefer' the curb. I think some people who can't get their horse to accept or seek the snaffle can get a pretty 'frame' in the curb.

So horse is behind the bit ,slightly, but looks nice. The curb refines the connection but should not be a replacement for the snaffle (in dressage)

That's not to say that talented trainers can't put a young horse in a double if they ALREADY have the good connection with the bit.

I disagree.

[Roan]

Is it spanish/mexican training? Around here, I usually hear "high school," (alta escuela) associated with Mexican horse training methods, often using Andalusian or Andalusian crosses. No idea about the double bridle though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idA7339DQJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOTiyfDM2hs

Oh my. . . those are terrible videos. Ugh.

I always thought the doma classica style of spanish vaquera riding employed the use of the double much earlier than modern dressage does. No time to look up references, but maybe Daydream Believer will chime in, as she has spanish horses. Here's one link I was able to find quickly.

http://www.horsegazette.com/Monthly_Features/06-Dec/FranciscoTrevino.html


Francisco has a couple of videos on YouTube that he defines as Doma Classica:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm_nD1LQZB4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1BCFcKpVH5Y

He starts all his horses in the double very young.

As to just how correct they are classically, I'm not even gonna go there.

Eileen

[arena run]

Just a thought. If this 'trainer' is a Western Pleasure convert to dressage and this horse is 5 - 7 years old... that, to me, is why this horse is in a double bridle.

You cannot show a western pleasure horse in a snaffle once they turn 6 years old. You HAVE to have them in a curb. Period. Or you don't show that horse.

She's probably seeing a 5, 6, or 7 yo horse NOT in a curb and thinking, "WHAT IS THIS???" <lol> Little realizing the difference in training schedule.

I don't agree at ALL in not being able to ride your own horse per trainer instructions. If the owner of the horse isn't enough of a rider to get on that mare then the trainer, imho, should be giving riding lessons as well as training the horse. sylvia

PS... what's the problem w/the horses being ridden w/spurs? Umm, lots of horses are ridden w/spurs and it's not abusive. Again... it might be the western influence coming out. Just dont' understand that part of the rant...

[blondmane]

The spur comment was justified. I was told by a Grand Prix trainer/rider that you don't use spurs 1) unless you mastered the use of your legs against the horse's sides and 2) you use them for lateral work. Why would a total beginner who can bearly post be instructed to wear spurs on a horse that is in a double bridle? If the horse is so forward that the trainer has a double bridle on the horse, why would you compound the forwardness by using spurs?

I ride horses in spurs when I am working on lateral things and the horse needs a bit more convincing to move away from the leg - leg yields, etc. When do other people use spurs? Am I missing something?

[slc2]

Like curb bits, the use of the spurs is very different in dressage.

Although a lot of people believe they can put spurs on a dressage horse 'because he won't listen to my leg', that isn't how it's supposed to be. If the horse doesn't respond to your leg, you rip your spurs OFF in dressage. You make him obey your leg WITHOUT spurs, THEN you put your spurs on, LOL.

The basic rule in dressage is that if you need a spur to make your horse go, you need to take your spur off, LOL.

Alot fo people fight this and will argue with great fervor that 'it doesn't hurt anything' and 'how else am I supposed to make him go?', ESPECIALLY if they come from hunters or western, both with different position, schooling and use of leg and seat, where spurs are commonly used as a reinforcement, and all of this is FINE...and the answer is YES...that works FINE...in HUNTERS, in WESTERN. And in dressage, but only if you don't care very much how it turns out.

And the answer is, with a whip. You use your leg, if they don't go, you use the whip. The rest of the answer is that if the reins are used correctly, the problem with not going from the aids may never have developed.

And the argument you get back is, 'my horse doesn't like a whip', and the answer to that is, 'well, you need to fix that'.

I realize none of that is easy. I've had the horse that didn't go and it was a shock to find out how WRONG everyone was. the key was not to put on spurs - not for dressage. The trainer who believed that wound up putting an 18'' scar on a horse. he was just wrong. SO Wrong.

I learned by seeing it done THAT WRONG. But I also saw Percherons and Norman cobs and very 'unresponsive' horses I had been told for years and years 'don't feel things like other horses do' and 'you HAVE to ride them like that', and I was shocked that they ddin't have to be ridden that way and that what I was told for years, 'they can't feel that', is just .... wrong.

Spurs in dressage are not to make a horse go, they are to refine communication so you can tell your horse to do things without hardly moving your leg at all. A spur is not to reinforce or 'escalate' an aid that is not being listened to. The whip is for that.

And oh, my yes, you will get a million arguments against that. Many roads lead to ROme, different strokes for different blokes, blah blah blah. And I don't mind a bit. Go on ahead and don't believe it....I don't really care, and I'm not going to fight with ya.

In dressage, if you want to move your horse up the levels, you can't have a horse that needs a spur just to go. There's a reason the right methods have been there for hundreds of years, because they work.

(ducks and runs, because OH MY do people hate this).

[slc2]

"asking me what I think about one trainer or another. I'm ashamed to say i let my tongue slip here and there but for the most part, I try to remind myself that I don't necessarily know th ins and outs of a particular situation. "Judge not lest ye be judged". When there are 20 Dressage trainers at one stable and they are all fighting for clients, it gets pretty ugly."

Yes it does. I'm convinced the smart boarder runs the other way if he sees any little coffee clatches forming. a positive atmosphere is much more successful and everyone rides better.

[Roan]

. . .Spurs in dressage are not to make a horse go, they are to refine communication so you can tell your horse to do things without hardly moving your leg at all. A spur is not to reinforce or 'escalate' an aid that is not being listened to. The whip is for that.
. . .

In dressage, if you want to move your horse up the levels, you can't have a horse that needs a spur just to go. There's a reason the right methods have been there for hundreds of years, because they work. . . .
. . .

Amen!

As my trainer likes to say, "You've got to EARN your spurs!"

Eileen

[slc2]

Usually that phrase pertains to something else entirely - having a still, stable leg. Otherwise the rider is poking the horse all the time when he doesn't intend to. Some horses ignore that and some of them get very nervous and irritated.

But...some riders aren't necessarily so bad - they may be on a crooked horse or one that 'rolls your leg' when he moves.

[Foxtrot's]

There are some Friesans up here that go in saddle seat. The rider sits there with very hard, set hands and the horse just goes around with his knees going chop chop chop and his neck straight up out of his chest. She uses a CHAIN for a bit. Quite ugly, but trained by a Morgan trainer. Shaking head in despair ...

[arena run]

The spur comment was justified. I was told by a Grand Prix trainer/rider that you don't use spurs 1) unless you mastered the use of your legs against the horse's sides and 2) you use them for lateral work. Why would a total beginner who can bearly post be instructed to wear spurs on a horse that is in a double bridle? If the horse is so forward that the trainer has a double bridle on the horse, why would you compound the forwardness by using spurs?

I ride horses in spurs when I am working on lateral things and the horse needs a bit more convincing to move away from the leg - leg yields, etc. When do other people use spurs? Am I missing something?

You did not specify that a beginner was using spurs. Your implication was that, because they used spurs at all on the horse they were dum-dums. :D

And I've already offered a reason for that particular trainer (given her background) to use a curb bit on a 5yo horse. Did the trainer say it was because the horse was 'forward'? Or are you determining that reason because that's the only reason you would use a curb bit?

Don't get me wrong here... I'm with you on most of your rant and questions. But you simply can NOT judge someone's training methods and ideas based on your own experience when theirs has been completely different. And western and english training and showing seems to be very foreign to each other. If this trainer is a successful western pleasure trainer then she's been there done that in that sport. She's new to dressage. She shouldn't wade in and think she knows everything just 'cause she's a trainer (western wise). But you shouldn't sit back and condemn and ask questions in a derrogatory manner w/out understanding where she's coming from. sylvia

[Roan]

Usually that phrase pertains to something else entirely - having a still, stable leg. Otherwise the rider is poking the horse all the time when he doesn't intend to. Some horses ignore that and some of them get very nervous and irritated.

But...some riders aren't necessarily so bad - they may be on a crooked horse or one that 'rolls your leg' when he moves.

Yep, she teaches h/j and dressage and uses the phrase across the board -- but she means different things depending on which group she's talking to. The jumpers earn their spurs when they learn quiet legs, and the rest of us only get them when we get proficient enough to use them for refinement.

Heh, be years before I earn mine ;)

Eileen

[Auventera Two]

I have always been taught that spurs are for refinement, not for speed.