Lasix also one of the drugs that has no place in the game

[Lora]

Ok - let's hear it!


Lasix also one of the drugs that has no place in the game
By Bill Finley
Special to ESPN.com

While horse racing is making very slow but somewhat steady progress in its fight to rid itself of scourges like steroids and a number of illegal drugs, it shouldn't continue to ignore another drug that has no place in the game. It's time for Lasix to go.

Anyone who still thinks Lasix is necessary would have a hard time explaining the results of the Dubai World Cup Day races. Fifteen U.S.-based horses competed and, of course, all 15 used Lasix when running in North America. The United Arab Emirates, like every other country in the world not named the United States, does not allow horses to compete on that or any other drug. But our drug dependent thoroughbreds did just fine without their fixes.

Including Curlin, who was brilliant when winning the Dubai World Cup, three American horses won on the six-race card. Plus, Idiot Proof was second in the Golden Shaheen and Well Armed was third in the Dubai World Cup. It doesn't seem that any of our horses were put at a disadvantage because they didn't have their supposed anti-bleeding drug. Apparently, neither were any of the 68 non-American horses who ran that day at Nad al Sheba Racecourse.

Not that this was a surprise. Since the inception of the Dubai World Cup in 1996, dozens of U.S. horses have gone to Dubai, run drug free and done just fine.

Back when Lasix was a hot-button issue and was not yet legal in all states, trainers and veterinarians argued vehemently that the drug was necessary to keep their bleeders racing. Without it, they claimed, an abundance of horses would be sidelined, unable to make money for their owners and fill out racing cards. Racing commissions and commissioners bought it. In 1995, the lone holdout, New York, caved in, and Lasix was officially everywhere.

As the years went on, the idea that Lasix was strictly for the horses who needed something to help their bleeding problems became a joke. On any day at any track, virtually every horse racing runs on Lasix. On the same day as the Dubai World Cup, 107 horses raced at Gulfstream and 105 of them ran on Lasix. That includes all 12 starters in the Florida Derby. That these 105 horses all have bleeding problems is laughable.

Now, trainers use Lasix not to control bleeding but to make sure they are on a level playing field with everyone else. Horsemen obviously believe that their horses will run faster with Lasix than without it (which could simply be a case of horses being lighter after they take Lasix because, as a diuretic, it causes horses to lose water weight), and they don't want to be the one guy out there without that edge.

Thirteen years after New York legalized Lasix, we should be seeing the fruits of the medication. With the help of this drug, horses should be running more than ever and lasting longer than ever and 12-horse fields should be the norm.

It turns out that exactly the opposite has happened. In 1970, before Lasix had permeated racing's landscape, the average number of starts per runner per year was 10.22. It's now down to an alarmingly low 6.31. During that same period, the average field size has fallen from 8.62 to 8.17.

It can't be a coincidence that the introduction of Lasix came at precisely the time a trend began whereby horses make fewer and fewer starts each year. It appears that Lasix has done the exact opposite of what its proponents said it would do, which, if you think about it, makes perfect sense. Horses that have to rely on a drug to get through their race day don't figure to last as long as the ones that gets by on mere hay, oats and water.

So, it appears that Lasix doesn't solve bleeding or keep horses in training longer. Then what does it do? According to the World Anti-Doping Agency, it masks other drugs. That's why it is on its list of banned drugs, which means athletes competing in the Olympics are not permitted to use it.

Lasix is a fraud. There is strong evidence that it is detrimental to the long-term well-being of the horse and some of the world's most respected scientists say it can mask other drugs. Its pervasive use adds to racing's image as an outlaw sport where drug use is rampant. Besides Canada, no other country in the world allows it. Yet, its usage here is out of control and no one seems to want to do anything about it. That needs to change.

Bill Finley is an award-winning racing writer whose work has appeared in the New York Times, USA Today and Sports Illustrated. Contact Bill at wnfinley@aol.com.

[moonriverfarm]

I'm in total agreement!

[DickHertz]

Sounds like this clown has never had a horse come back from a race, drop his head, and bleed for 3 hours from the nose.

Also, the masking drugs statement is ludicrous and outdated.

[Lora]

I'm in total agreement!

Me too!

Just my opinion but if a horse can't race without drugs, he shouldn't be racing.

[DickHertz]

Me too!

Just my opinion but if a horse can't race without drugs, he shouldn't be racing.

That's not practical and if you are in the business you should know that. While Lasix is abused, it does have a role in the game. If you want to pick a fight about Lasix, then blame states like Kentucky who allow trainers to just "put" their horses on Lasix w/out an endoscopic exam. I only give 3-4 CC's before a race and I don't consider that to be an inhumane practice at all.

[Galileo1998]

So Dick, how is it that you figure the rest of the world is able to manage to race horses just fine without it?

[Lora]

Why do the lungs bleed?
Is it a way the body is telling us that something is wrong?

[SteeleRdr]

I'm not sure the author of the article has done the research, but I don't think you can equate the use of Lasix to the decline in races run for a horse from the 70's until now. I think much of that has to deal with breeding and bone structure. Horses in the 70's and before weren't nearly as slight and fine boned as the one's you currently see on the track.

I know many people don't agree with Lasix, and I'm on the fence. But for those against it, care to share your first-hand experience with it, not just spectator observations?

I'm not defending it at all, but I've used it on race horses before. And know the proper uses, etc.

[Jessi P]

This is more of Lora's PETA crap she finds on the internet and spews forth to disparage horse racing.

If you dont work in the racing industry you have no clue. You cant speculate and form a valid opinion of something you have no idea about.

[Big_Tag]

Weighing in from the STB world:


It's pretty prevalent and I do not, in the least, have a problem with it. The *only* things I can say about in agreement to the above article it is it's overused (as in it's pretty easy to get a horse on it, even if they aren't really bleeding) and it also, as I understand *can* be used to mask other drugs.

Had a very interesting conversation with a man from Sweden on this, actually. In Europe they do not race horses on Lasix. I asked him what happens if a horse starts to bleed, and he says they just quit with them. I cannot say that I necessarily agree with that school of thought. We've got an older gelding, 8, that's raced on it since he was 4 or 5. He's made a buttload of $$. Now, he is not a tremendous, horrible bleeder, but Lasix certainly helps him as he DOES bleed somewhat.

You will also note here in the states, generally, that horses in the higher echelon of performance tend not to be on it as frequently as those in the lower levels. Probably a testament to their natural athleticism and aptitude as a high-performance animal. However, just because a horse requires Lasix doesn't mean they shouldn't race, considering in many cases you can completely eradicate the problem with the use of Lasix.


Just my two cents, I guess.

[hipsdontlie]

can you explain how it is used to mask other drugs ?? i mean if they are medicated and the lasix forces them to urinate the meds are still in their blood stream or not ?? or is that just a theory ?? i do like your response to this thread. lets also take into consideration a few other things versus the 70s to today. how about all of the pollution and stuff in the air that perhaps was not so strong yrs ago. sadly many in the horse world medicate and people are so quick to say the racetrackers are bad well at the track we all know they get drug tested when they win or place. i wish they would do this at the horse shows especially after my daughter's previous pony trainer told me about one pony she gave ONE HUNDRED methacarbamol pills to show on bc she couldnt "get her to the ring" otherwise. those who know the track know that we are not to give iv shots etc etc. the drug use at the track is monitored much more than other places.

[DickHertz]

can you explain how it is used to mask other drugs ?? i mean if they are medicated and the lasix forces them to urinate the meds are still in their blood stream or not ?? or is that just a theory ?? i do like your response to this thread. lets also take into consideration a few other things versus the 70s to today. how about all of the pollution and stuff in the air that perhaps was not so strong yrs ago. sadly many in the horse world medicate and people are so quick to say the racetrackers are bad well at the track we all know they get drug tested when they win or place. i wish they would do this at the horse shows especially after my daughter's previous pony trainer told me about one pony she gave ONE HUNDRED methacarbamol pills to show on bc she couldnt "get her to the ring" otherwise. those who know the track know that we are not to give iv shots etc etc. the drug use at the track is monitored much more than other places.

The masking notion is way outdated and really crushed the credibility of the author. With ELISA testing, you can't mask anything. If it's in there, they can piss 200 gallons of urine and it will still show up on the blood tests.

[DickHertz]

So Dick, how is it that you figure the rest of the world is able to manage to race horses just fine without it?

Oh, horses overseas bleed a lot. You just choose to hear what you want to hear and ignore everything else. Why do you think when the horses come over here for the Breeders Cup they run on Lasix most of the time?

I have a friend who felt the way Lola does and stopped giving Lasix to all her horses until one died from so much lung hemorhaging during a race that the horse had a heart attack during the race.

[Lora]

This is more of Lora's PETA crap she finds on the internet and spews forth to disparage horse racing.

If you dont work in the racing industry you have no clue. You cant speculate and form a valid opinion of something you have no idea about.



Not - PETA didn't write this article -- I really have no feeling for PETA one way or the other - but they do seem to be a bit extreme.

[Laurierace]

Horses were designed for the ultimate flight in the fight or flight decision. Their abdomen works like bellows in that their intestines push forward during one phase of the stride, pushing a great deal of air out of the lungs, and then on the next phase of the stride they slosh backwards creating extra space for the lungs to expand, giving the horse top oxygen availabilty to outrun their predators. They do not however, have to outrun their predators for a mile and a 1/16th or a mile and a quarter etc. The mechanism that allows them peak speed also predisposes them to bleeding when we attempt to stretch that peak speed out past what it was created to do. I believe that all race horses bleed to a certain extent. Maybe not every race, but they will eventually if you race them enough, so I put them on medications to attempt to prevent that. I don't think lasix is a cure all but at the moment it is the best we have and not to give the horses the best we have would be inhumane in my opinion.

[Galileo1998]

Oh, horses overseas bleed a lot. You just choose to hear what you want to hear and ignore everything else. Why do you think when the horses come over here for the Breeders Cup they run on Lasix most of the time?
.

Really, where? I spent five years living in the UK and working in the racing industry and there wasn't "a lot" of horses bleeding. It happens the odd time, but it's rare to see. If a horse is a serious bleeder they either stop racing them, or send them to North America.

Well, according to Aidan and to Sir Michael it's so that they can have the same advantages that the "home team" have.

[On the Farm]

Really, where? I spent five years living in the UK and working in the racing industry and there wasn't "a lot" of horses bleeding. It happens the odd time, but it's rare to see. If a horse is a serious bleeder they either stop racing them, or send them to North America.

Well, according to Aidan and to Sir Michael it's so that they can have the same advantages that the "home team" have.

How common are post-exercise endoscopic exams in the UK?

[DickHertz]

Really, where? I spent five years living in the UK and working in the racing industry and there wasn't "a lot" of horses bleeding. It happens the odd time, but it's rare to see. If a horse is a serious bleeder they either stop racing them, or send them to North America.



Um, this statement is a blatant lie and you know it. They ignore the horses who bleed internally, but not out the nostrils.

[Galileo1998]

Um, this statement is a blatant lie and you know it. They ignore the horses who bleed internally, but not out the nostrils.

No, it's not. I would suspect though that they generally don't go looking for an something that isn't causing a problem in order to put their horses on drugs they don't need and can't legally use though. :yes:

Nobody has yet been able to explain to me why we NEED Lasix over here, when every other racing country in the world seems to manage just fine without it, AND have lower breakdown rates while maintaining a higher average of yearly and lifetime starts?

At Lingfield in England today there are seven races on the card, ranging in distance from 5 furlongs to 1 1/2 miles. There are 6 two year olds in the five furlong race, two races with 8 entries, two with 9 entries, one with 11 and one with 14. The horses range in age from 2 to 8, and there are entries with 20+, 30+, 40+, 50+, 60+ and even 70+ lifetime starts, all done without drugs, and all sound enough to be racing today without drugs. These may not be the superstars of the racehorse world, but they are out there doing the job they were bred to do and providing entertainment for the fans and betting public.

[SteeleRdr]

No, it's not. I would suspect though that they generally don't go looking for an something that isn't causing a problem in order to put their horses on drugs they don't need and can't legally use though. :yes:

Nobody has yet been able to explain to me why we NEED Lasix over here, when every other racing country in the world seems to manage just fine without it, AND have lower breakdown rates while maintaining a higher average of yearly and lifetime starts?

At Lingfield in England today there are seven races on the card, ranging in distance from 5 furlongs to 1 1/2 miles. There are 6 two year olds in the five furlong race, two races with 8 entries, two with 9 entries, one with 11 and one with 14. The horses range in age from 2 to 8, and there are entries with 20+, 30+, 40+, 50+, 60+ and even 70+ lifetime starts, all done without drugs, and all sound enough to be racing today without drugs. These may not be the superstars of the racehorse world, but they are out there doing the job they were bred to do and providing entertainment for the fans and betting public.

And you're trying to attribute the longevity to NOT using lasix?? I think that's a BIT OFF. I don't think you can make such a conclusion whatsoever. You also have to look at the breeding, the footing, and everything else. You can't just blame it on one element. Breakdowns don't happen in the US more because we use Lasix. That is such a bogus conclusion.

I think there are many other contributing factors. Breeding may be one of them??

[Galileo1998]

And you're trying to attribute the longevity to NOT using lasix?? I think that's a BIT OFF.

No, not all all. Just pointing out a bunch of enjoyable to watch racing taking place today, being done by horses that have been doing it for years and all without the use of a drug that some people feel is absolutely necessary over here. I'm just trying to get someone to explain to my how it is that the rest of the racing world seems to get along just fine without it :)

[Big_Tag]

No, not all all. Just pointing out a bunch of enjoyable to watch racing taking place today, being done by horses that have been doing it for years and all without the use of a drug that some people feel is absolutely necessary over here. I'm just trying to get someone to explain to my how it is that the rest of the racing world seems to get along just fine without it :)

Again, not entirely sure how it works in TBs. But, here's what I would tend to think:

STBs in Europe are going slower than those here. Generally longer distances and slower. THis may contribute to the bleeding factor here, due to the speeds horses are going.
Also, like I had mentioned before..In Europe, if they bleed enough to hinder their performance significantly, they don't race. Here, if they bleed, you can put them on Lasix and get a successful career out of an otherwise "doomed" (racing-wise) horse. I am not sure where the problem in this is. IME, if a horse is on the right dosage of Lasix for their bleeding situation, it can eradicate the problem. Also IME Lasix is not at all related to longevity of racing. At all.

It is interesting to note, however: Mr Muscleman (big name in older-trotter ranks) went to the Elitlopp in Sweden, I believe last year, where he had to race without Lasix and was just fine. I think Lasix here, as I said, is easy to get on and used as a precautionary measure in cases. I don't know that I really have a problem with that either.

I don't even know how you'd come up with this info, but it would be neat to see the proportion of "bleeders" in other countries and how many are never able to race b/c of this. Do horses imported from other countries frequently end up on Lasix here?

[On the Farm]

No, not all all. Just pointing out a bunch of enjoyable to watch racing taking place today, being done by horses that have been doing it for years and all without the use of a drug that some people feel is absolutely necessary over here. I'm just trying to get someone to explain to my how it is that the rest of the racing world seems to get along just fine without it :)

Well you didn't answer my first question, so allow me to try another--What is the time frame for the pre-race drawing of horses in the UK?

Allow me to add a third query--Do any trainers in the UK use a product called Bleed-X?

[Galileo1998]

Well you didn't answer my first question, so allow me to try another--What is the time frame for the pre-race drawing of horses in the UK?

Allow me to add a third query--Do any trainers in the UK use a product called Bleed-X?

Well, I didn't answer your first question about the scopes because it seems an impossible question to answer unless I had been in every trainers yard in the UK and questioned them about their practices, which I haven't...but in my experiences while they aren't uncommon, trainers also don't go looking for something that isn't causing an issue.

Second question - do you mean declaration times?

Third question - again, how would I possibly know what every trainer in the UK is doing and/or using.

Now can anyone please answer my question? HOW is it that the rest of the world manages to run a thriving racing industry without the use of Lasix but you all seem to think it's absolutely necessary here?

[On the Farm]

Well, I didn't answer your first question about the scopes because it seems an impossible question to answer unless I had been in every trainers yard in the UK and questioned them about their practices, which I haven't...but in my experiences while they aren't uncommon, trainers also don't go looking for something that isn't causing an issue.

Second question - do you mean declaration times?

Third question - again, how would I possibly know what every trainer in the UK is doing and/or using.

Now can anyone please answer my question? HOW is it that the rest of the world manages to run a thriving racing industry without the use of Lasix but you all seem to think it's absolutely necessary here?

Forgive me for misunderstanding a previous post, but after reading your claim of having worked in UK racing for five years, I figured you may have some knowledge of such issues. After all, you claimed that bleeding episodes in the UK are not that common.

FYI, horses can bleed without the presence of a two-nostril gusher and I find the logic of "if I don't look for bleeding in the lungs, then I guess it didn't happen" to be quite troubling. In investigatiing an unexplained subpar performance on this side of the ocean, the lungs are usually one of the first areas to be investigated.

The second question refers to "drawing," which is the withholding of water prior to a race or workout. How many hours ahead of the exercise are horses "drawn" in the UK, especially without the use of any anti-bleeding medication?

I asked about Bleed-X since we employ one of Mark Prescott's former exercise riders. I've queried her about this topic and I'm just trying to compare your version versus hers.

[Galileo1998]

I can tell you that I spent the better part of two of those years on racecourses every day and that it was uncommon to see a bleeder.

You're asking me questions that are trainer and horse dependant, not sure how you think I could answer for the practices and proceedures for every trainer in the UK :)

As far as what SIR Mark Prescott uses in his yard, I have no idea, I've never been to Heath House, and if you know him at all, I'm sure you'll understand why I never felt the inclination to wander up to him and ask. :lol: I will say he did a hell of a job with Alborada in 1999, and his training of Fall in Line to win six races in two weeks was pretty darn impressive as well :yes:

Now, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer my question?

[CTDarkhorse045]

Racing is not my area... yet... but while in school I had to do a term paper on whatever topic I chose. Lasix and it's use and the controversy was my choice, and I have learned a little bit about the drug. I do firmly believe that in TB racing the drug is badly abused. While it is proven that it is a very theraputic drug for EIPH, it is also on the line of a performance enhancer. Lasix is furosemide, which is above all a diuretic, basically causes you to excrete urine and excess water, at a higher rate than normal. Research does show that horses who run on Lasix usually have better performance times than horses that do not, as well as performances of horses not on the drug got better once on it. I don't personally consider it a performance enhancer, because it is common sense, you are going to run faster if you aren't carrying water weight. In standardbred racing they allow the use of Lasix, but the bleeding MUST be confirmed by a vet in order to use it.
I was just at the track today to enjoy the races, and about 95% of the horses running today were on Lasix. Now you can't tell me that all of these horses suffer so badly from EIPH that they could not run without it. If that truely is the case, shouldn't we be watching our breeding programs and breeding better horses who are built to do their jobs without needing drugs to get by? How well is our sport doing if we have to medicate all of the participants? I don't know if it is the horses, or trainers, or breeders, but someone should do something or the entire sport will suffer! Sooner or later, the drug is going to be banned, there is too much controversy and research is showing it to be more of a performance enhancer by the day... shouldn't we be weaning horses off of it rather than putting everyone on it just in case?
Not trying to start a train wreck here, just sharing what I learned doing my research!

[Jessi P]

Ill informed posts like these are why I stayed away from COTH for over a year. If you dont have personal knowledge, all you are doing is guessing, speculating, or ASS-U-ME-ing. Reading something in a book gives you just the author's opinion (which may be severely slanted like Lora's PETA articles). Just because you dont see a horse bleed out the nose it doesnt mean it didnt bleed. As any vet will tell you, 80% of racehorses bleed to some extent worldwide. It is the severity of the bleeding which affects performance.

Our vet uses a scale of 1-5 when he scopes a horse (did you know that 75% of bleeders do NOT show any visible external signs other than a cough?). Five is bleeding out the nose that is also confirmed to have originated in the lungs - bleeding out the nose can also be caused by banging the head in the gate or on the lead pony's saddle horn. The very vascular sinus cavities can pop a blood vessel/capillary and cause a bit of blood out the nose so it is essential to differentiate between EIPH and a simple nosebleed. A 1 is a visible amount of blood, enough to be considered consequential.

There are many bleeder meds which can be given in addition to or in lieu of lasix. Many horses in other countries race on these kind of (often untraceable "natural") preparations - first to mind are the chinese herbs. My personal knowledge about racing in other countries (actually seeing the vet bill on some racehorses in training for a friend that we compared to our average vet bills) only covers australia but I have talked extensively with trainers in England as well, and they have bleeder "meds" that don't show.

So dont for one second think that "other countries don't use lasix so their horses arent bleeding, therefore America is just doping up our racehorses because racehorse trainers are essential evil greedy doping ba$tards."

I believe the two EVENT horses that died a couple weeks ago at the Red Hills event from EIPH would still be alive if lasix had been allowed in that show venue. What a shame.

OK, rant over. Resume your regularly scheduled program. :cool:

[On the Farm]

I can tell you that I spent the better part of two of those years on racecourses every day and that it was uncommon to see a bleeder.

You're asking me questions that are trainer and horse dependant, not sure how you think I could answer for the practices and proceedures for every trainer in the UK :)

As far as what SIR Mark Prescott uses in his yard, I have no idea, I've never been to Heath House, and if you know him at all, I'm sure you'll understand why I never felt the inclination to wander up to him and ask. :lol: I will say he did a hell of a job with Alborada in 1999, and his training of Fall in Line to win six races in two weeks was pretty darn impressive as well :yes:

Now, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer my question?

I'm not asking you to answer for every trainer in the UK. You made an assertion, based on your supposed "work" in the UK racing industry that bleeding was not a problem. As Jessi P stated, bleeding episodes vary in severity and just because 'you' didn't see a horse bleed from its nostrils doesn't mean it didn't bleed. Even a minute amount of blood in the lungs can be deadly. I'm just trying to reconcile what you say with what my co-worker observed, which is about completely opposite from your assertions.

To answer your question, lasix is an ethical and practical way to deal with an inherent physical problem with performance horses. We recognize that horses bleed and don't for one instant believe that if we don't look for it, then it doesn't happen. You say it's not a problem, I have someone who had her hands on horses every day in a bonafide racing yard who said it was. That's why I asked how often are horses scoped, or how long are horses drawn. Is drawing a horse for 10, 12, or even 24 hours more humane than giving 5cc's of lasix? Is giving lasix less humane than syringing a horse with turpentine and linseed oil, which was a treatment for EIPH about 100 years ago?

Ultimately, if other jurisdictions would rather deal with dead or sick horses due to EIPH, I guess that's their philosophy and ethic, but I myself would rather try to prevent it, or at least limit the severity of it in the first place.

[Galileo1998]

You made an assertion, based on your supposed "work" in the UK racing industry...

Yes, that's it, you're on to me, I made up the fact that I worked in the UK racing industry. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: So far you've accused me of "claiming" to work in the racing industry and now you call it my "supposed work". I can see that you're a very rational person to have a discussion with. :yes: :lol:

I have never known of a trainer to withhold water for 24, 12 or even 10 hours before a race. Are you are saying that one of Sir Mark Prescott's ex stable lasses says that was common practice in his yard? Is so, I'll be sure to pass that concern on. The BHA takes the welfare of horses very seriously.

[CdnRider]

Can anyone cite any websites to why lasix works for EIPH??

[Acertainsmile]

Just thought I'd add a few more meds that work to control bleeding... I'm sure our European friends are on to these also...

Other medicines used to prevent bleeding are Aminocaproic acid (Amicar), conjugated estrogens, Tranexamic acid, and lastly, Carbazochrome. Carbazochrome is used for the systemic control of capillary bleeding associated with increased capillary permeability. In the form Carbazochrome Salicylate, it is known as Kentucky Red. Cant forget good old Clotal either.

Lasix is a diuretic-
A diuretic reduces blood pressure by reducing the volume of water retained by the body. Lower water volume=lower blood pressure. There is no actual cure for EIPH but Lasix does seem to help alleviate it, due to reducing the pressure in the blood vessels in the lung.

[CTDarkhorse045]

Here are a few links I just found with information on the use of Lasix and other treatments....

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/furosa.htm

http://www.centurion-systems.co.uk/respiratory4.htm

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs10688/$FILE/lasix.pdf

After skimming through these pages, they all pretty much take the same stand that Lasix is a performance enhancer, but there are other sites out there that take different stands, but I dont have enough time right now to find more!

[On the Farm]

Yes, that's it, you're on to me, I made up the fact that I worked in the UK racing industry. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: So far you've accused me of "claiming" to work in the racing industry and now you call it my "supposed work". I can see that you're a very rational person to have a discussion with. :yes: :lol:


I'd say I'm very rational. You made a broad statement based on your experience in the UK racing industry, but when I pressed you for specifics about the topic, all I received was alot of "I don't know." Your avoidance just makes me wonder about the nature of your experience, that's all.

[Acertainsmile]

Here are a few links I just found with information on the use of Lasix and other treatments....

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/furosa.htm

http://www.centurion-systems.co.uk/respiratory4.htm

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs10688/$FILE/lasix.pdf

After skimming through these pages, they all pretty much take the same stand that Lasix is a performance enhancer, but there are other sites out there that take different stands, but I dont have enough time right now to find more!


Well, obviously a bleeder is going to put in a better performance if the Lasix stops them from bleeding! :winkgrin:

[Florida Fan]

The big difference of opinions on Lasix is the difference between those who make their living in racing and those who just have an opinion. It is necessary to be "in the game" to really offer a totally educated opinion.

[WhiteCamry]

I'm in total agreement!

Second the motion!

[DickHertz]

Now can anyone please answer my question? HOW is it that the rest of the world manages to run a thriving racing industry without the use of Lasix but you all seem to think it's absolutely necessary here?

Well, I know trainers that win at 35% are using EPO. Also, if you are IN the business, you know someone who knows someone and word spreads pretty quick about who's using what.

[DickHertz]

Just thought I'd add a few more meds that work to control bleeding... I'm sure our European friends are on to these also...

Other medicines used to prevent bleeding are Aminocaproic acid (Amicar), conjugated estrogens, Tranexamic acid, and lastly, Carbazochrome. Carbazochrome is used for the systemic control of capillary bleeding associated with increased capillary permeability. In the form Carbazochrome Salicylate, it is known as Kentucky Red. Cant forget good old Clotal either.

Lasix is a diuretic-
A diuretic reduces blood pressure by reducing the volume of water retained by the body. Lower water volume=lower blood pressure. There is no actual cure for EIPH but Lasix does seem to help alleviate it, due to reducing the pressure in the blood vessels in the lung.

New Bolton just did a study on Amicar and the results showed that it does absolutely nothing to stop bleeding...I only say this because I never saw it work and felt it was truly a way for vets to make a quick $15.

[hipsdontlie]

although i am sure many know this.... how badly can lasix be "abused" ?? with drug rules strictly enforced its not like the show horse world where people give them whatever they want until they get caught.

[SteeleRdr]

although i am sure many know this.... how badly can lasix be "abused" ?? with drug rules strictly enforced its not like the show horse world where people give them whatever they want until they get caught.

People are using the term "abuse" regarding the use of Lasix on horses that don't necessarily need it (due to bleeding). Not really about using it illegally or overdosing, it's more about the use unnecessarily.

[DickHertz]

People are using the term "abuse" regarding the use of Lasix on horses that don't necessarily need it (due to bleeding). Not really about using it illegally or overdosing, it's more about the use unnecessarily.

Yeah. In Pennsylvania, you gotta bleed during a scope to get on Lasix. If you ship in from another state and there is no bleeder card on the papers they will call the track where the horse ran on Lasix and get a fax of the bleeders certificate. If you just "put" your horse on Lasix like you can in Kentucky, then they'll make you run w/out lasix. It's strict, but I think it's fair.

By the way, am I the only one who doesn't believe Gallileo ever really worked on a backside overseas?

[Galileo1998]

By the way, am I the only one who doesn't believe Gallileo ever really worked on a backside overseas?

#1 - Allow me to point out that if you had a clue you would realize that there is no such thing as a backside in the UK. :lol: But thanks for trying. :winkgrin: Perhaps you should take the time to educate yourself as to how and where racehorses are trained over there.

#2 - do you REALLY think that working in a stable yard is SO fantastic that someone would make it up?? :lol: Trust me, if I was going to make something up, it would be a whole lot more fun than cleaning up after horses for a living. :D

[Barnfairy]

If I may interrupt to point out that Dr. Scot Waterman of the Racing Medication & Testing Consortium (http://www.rmtcnet.com/default.asp) --formed with the aim of strengthening the integrity of racing-- will be tomorrow's guest on the Blood Horse's Talkin' Horses (http://www.bloodhorse.com/talkinhorses/SW041008.asp) live discussion. I'm fairly certain Dr. Waterman has an educated opinion regarding Lasix and its use in the racing industry, if you care to ask him about it.

Carry on.

[didgery]

I have a friend who felt the way Lola does and stopped giving Lasix to all her horses until one died from so much lung hemorhaging during a race that the horse had a heart attack during the race.

I am not in the racing business but I will say that this statement right here won't help you defend the sport from its detractors.

[DickHertz]

From a bloodhorse chat today...Gallileo is right, European horses and trainers are perfectly clean.

Orange County, CA:
Why can't the United States adopt similar medication rules to those that are in place in Europe? What are the differences in medications allowed here vs. there?

Waterman:
There is nothing that prevents states in the US from adopting similar medication rules to those in place in Europe. Rightly or wrongly, the U.S. has a different philosophy that has developed over a period of time towards some therapeutic medications. The main difference is that furosemide is permitted on raceday in the U.S. and generally is a 24-hour drug in Europe. One non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug is usually allowed at 24 hours in the U.S., while in Europe the administration of NSAIDs is pushed out much further from the race. Anabolic steroids used to be another major difference although the model rule states are now adopting brings us much closer to the rest of the world. Most other medications are actually regulated very similarly and believe it or not, there are therapeutic medications that can be administered closer to the race in European countries than many U.S. states.
St. Louis,MO :
I realize that the whole aspect of medication for Thoroughbreds in training is complicated but isn't the European and Japanese restrictions a much cleaner solution? Also don't you believe that there has to be some unification among the different state racing authorities to bring this whole mess under control both from prohibiting performance enhancing or detracting drugs and enforcing punishments for violators?

Waterman:
Please see my previous answer regarding international medication rules. At the 30,000 foot level the European and Japanese approaches look cleaner but I can tell you from experience that they struggle with the same issues we do in terms of drugs of therapeutic benefit to the horse and when to withdraw them in order to preserve the integrity of the race. These are universal issues. Yes, I do believe that there must be uniformity among state jurisdictions. The RMTC has worked diligently on a uniform national medication policy since its inception and we have made more progress towards this goal than anyone in the industry thought we would when the RMTC began. We still have a ways to go but we’ll keep at it.

[DickHertz]

I am not in the racing business but I will say that this statement right here won't help you defend the sport from its detractors.


The topic was about the use of Lasix and I simply pointed out one reason why Lasix is necessary.

I've already said the drug is abused, but it can play a key role in preventing EIPH in a lot of horses. I do think that horses who need to train in Lasix should be retired, but some people will keep going with them.

[BansheeBreeze]

pardon me to bring up an older topic here but I'm just curious for learnings sake....what are the NEGATIVE side effects of Lasix? Its something I've yet to read about and you would think with all the hullaballoo over it, there would be SOME kind of study or information regarding it. Thanks

[DickHertz]

pardon me to bring up an older topic here but I'm just curious for learnings sake....what are the NEGATIVE side effects of Lasix? Its something I've yet to read about and you would think with all the hullaballoo over it, there would be SOME kind of study or information regarding it. Thanks

Extended use can cause kidney failure. Generally, if you are just giving it for races there won't be any long-term negative effects. People that use it to train and race are putting their horses at greater risk for kidney failure.

[Barnfairy]

...what are the NEGATIVE side effects of Lasix?

Use of any diuretic can result in dehydration and electrolyte imbalance, which in turn can lead to tying up -- side effects which are of particular concern to equine athletes.

[WarranT]

I could tell you a story about Lasix use that would make your head spin. And also make you question the integrity of the veterinarians on the backstretch.

i was a young boy so i dont remember to much, but had them tell me a few times over the years

Had a trotter qualifying at The Meadowlands. Drove him back to the barn and they find the vet waiting at the barn. the horse was good on the track

my old man and trainer went to get the horses bath water and they find the vet going into his stall and drawing blood. they didint think anything of it, thought they wanted to make sure the horse didint tie up. Next thing they see is the vet takes this huge 60 cc syringe of blood, squirts it down the horse's nose and then scopes him.

"Yep" he says "hes bleeding. He can go on Lasix!" and he proceeded to turn the paperwork into the state vet. Shows just how greedy vets can be..

Speaking of vets....I often wonder if they bet. If they "treat" 4 horses in a race, are they all getting the same meds or are some getting the good stuff and the others plain vitamins????