Success?Yearling to FEI

[ctanner]

I have a friend,(believe me this is really a friend,I've been around long enough to know my limits!)who has purchased a stud colt yearling.She plans on breeding him and showing him herself to Grand Prix.:eek::yes::eek:

Now,I love her and tried talking her out of this.I'm no fan of amatures breeding horses.I also tried to explain to her that the FEI road is long,hard and expensive.Currently she has not shown above first,on a confirmed 4th level horse.

I believe this is a slow motion train wreck waiting to unfold.

Am I just a nay-sayer?:sadsmile:

Any ideas(be nice,I said I love her and I want to keep her as a friend)on how to support her and get her to wake up to reality?

[slc2]

if someone is determined to do something you can't tell them not to - they get very, very angry. people don't want anyone to burst the bubble. they start to believe something - woe be to the person who tries to tell them not. even here, you'll get castigated for standing in the way of the 'follow that dream' thing. :lol:

if she gets a ton of help with everything from feeding to handling to breaking to training for the next 10 yrs, it could work out alright. i dare say, though, anyone who 'helps' her is going to see her coming from miles off and be rubbing their hands together. depending on who gets gets hooked up with she could get some valuable help or she could get very, very ripped off and get no decent help at all.

and unless she gets someone else to do at least some of the riding she's going to make mistakes in the training that she doesn't even know exist.

that will affect how well the horse goes, how likely he is to reach grand prix, AND how successful of a breeding stallion he will be.

if she's very athletic and very strong and healthy, has unlimited time and check book, and is fearless, patient, calm yet assertive, she'll at least be fairly safe.

but don't try to talk any sense into her. people are desperately determined to make their own mistakes... :)

[Kimberlee]

Does she know the costs of having a stallion?

Has she spoken to someone in your area re their operation, and the costs? I would most likely go to some of the breed inspections in your area this summer, and see what goes on and what people there are to speak with. Also, has the colt been inspected yet? Did they think he was a stallion prospect? If she is working with a trainer, did the trainer "help" her buy this stallion?

Just be supportive, and be there for her whether she finds out that this idea is not going to work, or when it does end up working out for her.

[retrofit]

She's going to need that stubborness and hard-headedness if she's going to make it happen. I hope she beats the odds.

[sunkistbey]

I guess I'd be more concerned about the stallion part than the FEI part. As the colt grows and his training progresses, she will begin to see what a long hard road it is and proceed or stop somewhere along the way. As long as she gets help with training, I don't see this as a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with having dreams, even crazy ones. As slc said, if you push too hard, you could lose her as a friend. Better you should stay and try to help.

Trying to raise and breed a colt is a whole nother story. That's your train wreck waiting to happen. If you want to push for something, that's what I'd focus on.
Good luck!

[slc2]

i think sometimes if two people really see things that differently and at least one of them is constantly upset and trying to plead with the person to change their approach...it's often better if the friendship goes away.

what it comes down to is that most people learn the hard way.

the best people learn the hard way too. the best people, though, they just keep ramming into that brick wall til it starts to crumble a little...the rest of the world just hits the wall a couple times and walks away in tears.

the first horse or two anyone tries to train, usually doesn't work out very well, and usually that's because they read but don't believe, books like 'In One Arena' or trainers who try to tell them not to get that glamorous 'cheap' colt for 15 grand.

they get restless when a trainer tells them to take their 15 grand and get the quiet old domestically bred serviceably sound 2nd level schoolmaster who will teach them second level at local shows, and that then they'll get ANOTHER, domestically bred serviceably sound 4th level horse, and so on, for years to come...they get restless when people say 'you have to practice'.

that's just how it usually goes. people just don't want to hear that, they don't want to tell their friends 'i got a sensible older trained horse that is appropriate for my level', they want to be able to say, 'i bought a beautiful stud colt and will ride him grand prix'.

so they go la la la la la and go buy that cute stud colt instead. it not only is more glamorous, it puts off that 'you have to practice' for a couple years so is doubly appealingly off in the future.

as axel steiner said they buy the tail coat, then the horse, and then and ONLY then consider the possibility of taking some riding lessons, LOL.

the way to peace and tranquility is understanding that you can't change this, and that you can live very well without being able to do anything about 99.999% of the crazy things people do.

[cuatx55]

Granted, this doesn't sound like the most realistic plan, but what's the harm in trying? She is not new to dressage, apparently, and has goals. As long as the horse or the rider aren't getting hurt doing it so what? She's probably just excited about the stallion.

And if she wants to keep it as a stallion, guess what? She can, it's her horse and her money. A lot of people breed the stallion or their mares just because they want to.

I would keep my mouth shut. I've had to do this several times when I don't agree with friends decisions but it's not my horse.

She'll figure it out eventually.

[Auventera Two]

Well, good for her for realizing a dream and working to make it happen. I cannot understand the notion that anyone who tries to raise a colt to stallionhood is going to get maimed and killed in the process. I've owned a stallion that I got as a yearling colt and I've boarded with stallions, and worked around them. In a lot of cases, stallions can be more even tempered than most of the mares. Get a good raging spring heat cycle going on and look out because the fur will fly. :eek:

The Husbands who owned and campaigned the Arab stallion Khemosabi told everyone in an interview that the key to Kemo's (and all their stallions') good behavior is to be consistent, firm, and keep on top of the training. They trail ride their stallions, little kids rode Khemo. I have a photo of Khemo in the middle of a big hay field with a small kid on board, heading off for a trail ride.

On 3 ocassions I've been to breeding farms to look at a stallion, and a kid was able to safely handle the stallion. One woman boosted her kid up bareback and they hacked around the outdoor arena for a while to demonstrate his calm demeanor. I have stallion videos where kids are handling or riding the horse in the video. What about that endurance breeding stallion, Blitzkreig who safely carries his owner with an artificial hip, knee, and shoulder in endurance races? I've been on trail with stallions before and I didn't even know they were stallions until somebody told me.

Stallions are what you make them - just like any other horse. True with stallions, you have hormones that have to be dealt with, but so do you with mares. Some of the most scary and dangerous behavior I've seen was from mares in heat. The only serious injury my mare ever sustained was when she engaged in a duel to the death with a pasture mate - also a dominant mare. They had to be physically separated by the barn owner who then called me at work to say I needed to get there RIGHT NOW. But ANY horse has the potential to be dangerous. Even geldings.

Has anyone read this month's Equus article on calming the moody mare? The way they talk about mares, you'd think that no beginner or kid should ever own a mare. But we don't make a big deal out of that. I think mares can be extremely volatile.

If your friend has the money and time to devote to her colt, if she has a good facility, if the horse has good bloodlines and a nice temperment, then I see no reason why you should assume that a "slow motion trainwreck" is going to unfold. :confused:

[merrygoround]

I tend to agree that ignorance is bliss.

[ctanner]

I think you are right slc2,just better to hold my tongue.
My friend has been riding for 6-7 years.
Started as an adult and is now in her fifties.
She keeps her horses at home.
We live in different states.
She has had trouble in the past finding an instructor.
She has no trainer at the moment.
I had to point out to her last fall that a good solid dressage instructor didn't have to be competing at the FEI level to help her.
I am concerned that she is going to be seriously hurt.
I know that not all horses are created equally.Some of the most serious injuries to my other friends have been at the hands(hooves and teeth);)of ponies.I just think she in way over her head and has no clue!

[slc2]

"Started as an adult and is now in her fifties"

what one gal i know calls, if i recall right, 'The Trampled Ones'.

just go ahead and have a memorial service for her now.

it's more efficient and you could save some money on renting the chapel.

by that age there's no point in trying to change her mind :)

[Eclectic Horseman]

You know what I would call this? A Parelli (or other NH) devotee waiting to happen! :lol::lol::lol:

[slc2]

that's why parelli calls it 'follow the dream'!:lol::lol::lol:

[Reiter]

Support her and help her as much as you can! You said the colt she purchased is a yearling and she doesn't know what she is getting into. Well, I have the feeling the first time the hormones kick in on him and he starts walking around on his hind legs she'll rethink the stallion thing! ;)

[mickeydoodle]

I predict she will find Parelli and do years of ground work.

[egontoast]

MYOB

It's a long way from yearling to GP.

Nothing wrong with having dreams. Goals change over the years.

[J-Lu]

I've seen a couple of these trainwrecks unfold. Usually, the GP dream takes care of itself somewhere around second level or fourth level.

But the stallion issue is more problematic because it can be dangerous. I've knows a couple of newbies who got into this but they usually hired professionals to handle/ride/train the horse. You could try convincing her that of course it would be fun to try on her own but she'll be much more successful if she gets help. If that fails and she's determined to do it on her own, perhaps you could convince her to make a paid appt. at a breeding barn in your area to talk to the breeding manager/stallion handlers and maybe she could watch a few youngsters be handled. Sometimes if people can see/hear what they're getting into they'll get a much better picture of how far (or not far at all) over their heads they are.

Just some thoughts.

[tri]

Gee, I think you guys are way too hard. What do you tell all the warmblood breeders who typically sell the horses they bred as weanlings & yearlings as FEI PROSPECTS? Tell them that no one but a professional should buy their horses?

For pete's sake, the colt is a YEARLING. It can be gelded at any time. Many people keep colts whole until they are a bit older, evaluate their potential & temperment and then geld or not geld accordingly. Would you have the same reaction if she bought a very nice already gelded yearling? Is it just because he isn't gelded yet? You know many stallions live side by side other horses and no one would ever know they are a stallion unless you looked. This myth that stallions are some sort of monster is unfounded. Like any young horse, they need proper handling and I've been run over by undisciplined young fillies far more than stud colts.

I think it is wonderful that someone buys a young horse and has the patience to bring it along. Doesn't mean she can't send the horse out to a pro to be backed for the first time as a 3 year old - shoot, I know a lot of very experienced riders who do that.

Training a young horse teaches the rider a TON. More people should do it and maybe more people will actually learn how to ride. What is the difference between this and the typical dressage queen who buys the imported warmblood with huge gaits that only their trainer can ride.....ever.

[J-Lu]

Tri, I think people are just giving different points of view. Apparently, the woman in the OP plans to stand a breeding stallion, not geld him.

I know breeders who would not sell yearlings, esp. yearling colts, to people brand new to handling them unless they already had a trainer lined up. They don't want to see the horse become poorly trained and they don't want to see the handler get hurt. This means more to many than making a buck off the sale. Yearling warmbloods bred for sport are typically very athletic and sometimes BIG. They rear. They leap. They kick. They spook and run. They play and run. I know someone (a long-time breeder) who a couple of months ago got run over by a panicked yearling and ended up in the hospital. She's experienced. Stuff happens. To say yearlings and up are safe for a beginner baby handler is wrong, IMO, because they have to be dealt with differently than an older horse who already knows about leading, pressure, voice commands and understands discipline.

No one is saying that stallions are monsters. However, as their hormones kick in as they grow, they DO have behaviors (yes, mares do, too). They build alot of muscle early, too. How these behaviors are handled early on means everything for a stallion, especially a WB who might end up at 1400lbs. Is there a breeder on this board who would disagree? Maybe this woman bought a saint. Maybe she didn't.

Maybe the person the OP is talking about will have no problems. Cool, then we're wrong. But you must admit that there's a probability that she might have problems raising a stud colt or any baby on her own. Thus, advice erring on the side of caution is appropriate.

[slc2]

Especially for an older training level rider gal who has light riding experience and took up riding trained horses as an adult and has no experience with babies or stallions at all of any age, or with schooling and training any youngsters, even three, four or five year olds, who doesn't have a trainer willing to help, I'd be really concerned about them getting a nice big old happy warmblood yearling.

Warmbloods, sorry to say, are especially HAPPY at the young ages, even if they do get easier later in life, they can be an incredible handful as youngsters. They are strong, large and heavy.

They can require an immense amount of daily attention, they can be extremely physical, and they can be stubborn, or scared, or both at the same time, either one is going to require a great deal of skill and finesse.

I have seen enough people who had 'years and years of experience' with trained horses, with older horses, or with smaller, lighter, or more timid youngsters, meet their match, physically and mentally and financially, when they decided a big, athletic, active and not so easily cowed youngster - mare, gelding OR stallion - is going to be appropriate for them.

I've seen too many amateurs try and do this...it tends to be middle aged gals with very scant experience, usually. I think they just get to a point where they are desperate to make progress and they assume they can do what those with much more knowledge and experience even have trouble doing.

Breeders, people who train young, large, strong athletic horses, and people who market, handle, breed and develop stallions - each one of these people has a wealth of very specialized knowledge...much of it comes with bruises, lost money and hard learned lessons. It is not so easy to just do without any help.

And I disagree that this is a time for 'I want to stand a stud, so what' thinking. The more the economy stinks, the less these things work out, the less help people get.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Having worked for breeders in the past myself, I decided that I generally do not like to work with foals or with stallions. You have to be too much of the disciplinarian all the time. Always watching your back, setting limits and enforcing the rules. Foals because they really do not know any better, and stallions because hormones give them strong stereotypical behaviors.

Knowing what the typical behavior is, and avoiding it, is the best approach. For example, rather than allowing the animal to lag behind you and nip you on the shoulder to push you along (typical stallion behavior), it is better to make sure that the horse leads in front of you with you at his shoulder than it is to punish the nipping. Punishing the nipping in many cases is perceived as a challenge or as an invitation to play. So his response to the punishment is rearing and striking out with the front hooves. Where does the handler go from there? As I said, if you know what the behavior is, you can avoid the "show down." But without any experience, a handler will quickly find himself in over his head. :no:

[ctanner]

J-Lu,slc2 and Ecletic Horseman,you get it!
I am going to suggest to her that she go to a breeding farm and see what and how they are doing it.That is great advice J-Lu.

[slc2]

Tell her to go work for them, not visit them. If she VISITS them they'll clean up all the blood and gore and get rid of the mangled and deformed staff people, bury the dead bodies, and exhaust all the livestock so they act like little angels while she's there!

[tri]

Yes, I know warmbloods are strong, big athletic horses. I am a breeder currently on my third generation with my mare line - imported Dutch wb stock with a healthy dose of french and BWP blood. But I disagree with a lot that has been said here. Do young horses need to be disciplined? Yes. Do you need to be consistent? Yes. But the the rest is pure hogwash.

Do you realize that some of the big ( and small) breeders have 4-H programs? That means they give a discount to children to breed their mare to their warmblood stallions to get their very own foal....and gasp! it might even be born a colt! Iron Spring Farm comes to mind as one of the big farms among many others. How do you feel about 12 year olds learning to deal with a foal? Happens all the time.

And I disagree wholeheartedly with "breeders" all being "professional" or at least not "amatuers". Go spend some time on the sporthorse breeding forum. Many there are middle-aged women who don't ride, don't have trainers, and have lots of questions on what to do when Mr. Studly yearling doesn't act sweet. Guess what? They figure it out and go on.

I think you are doing your friend a grave disservice with not being supportive. So what if she has "plans" to stand a stallion? Often times, that doesn't work out no matter what kind of experience the owner has. Sometimes it works out great. I couldn't name all the people I know because there were so many who never had a stallion, had no plans to keep a stallion and had no idea on how to manage a stallion, and then all of a sudden end up deciding to keep the horse whole or acquired one and had a brilliant successful career in sport as well as in standing him for stud.

Personally, I think she will have a great adventure and find the whole experience exciting and rewarding. Will she end up selling him? Maybe. Will she end up gelding him? Maybe. But it won't change the fact that she wants this experience and it will probably be a whole ton of fun for her.

[egontoast]

There is so much to worry about besides what other people are doing.

I just notice a trend of people coming on here to complain about/ridicule the choices of their friends. How does this help your "friend", exactly ?

[ctanner]

Well I got a few good ideas to share with her.
I don't believe I have ridculed her.I think what she is doing is fool-hearty at best and dangerous at worst.

[tri]

Fool hardy? What exactly don't you agree with? Plans she has of taking a young horse up through the levels with hopes of getting to GP? I guess a lot of folks here are fools then.

Or, that she might keep the horse a stallion and breed him to some mares? Wow, there are quite a few fools around then.

Or, that she might want to have a warmblood breeding stallion and campaign him in dressage too? Maybe we should tell everyone riding a stallion who dares to show him that they are fools.

Or, that she is going to spend a lot of money showing? Wow, I didn't know that there was a cheap way to show at FEI. Foolish me.

Methinks, perhaps you are jealous? Or have another agenda?

[slc2]

Yes, some people do get young horses and do very well with them. But if a friend knows the person well, and expresses concern, they may have a good point. About that particular person, that situation.

I know people who have done very well with a first stallion, raising it and training it. They had almost daily help from a trainer in most successful cases, were working student or had some other advantage.

Like J-lu i have seen enough of these turn into real train wrecks that I have concluded that the person who makes this work with little help or experience is the exception. It isn't about wanting to discourage someone at all; it's about concern for their safety. We've just seen two very accomplished horsemen get very severely injured this spring. Horses are dangerous. Experience, knowledge and help cuts down the number of accidents.

[J-Lu]

Fool hardy? What exactly don't you agree with? Plans she has of taking a young horse up through the levels with hopes of getting to GP? I guess a lot of folks here are fools then.

Or, that she might keep the horse a stallion and breed him to some mares? Wow, there are quite a few fools around then.

Or, that she might want to have a warmblood breeding stallion and campaign him in dressage too? Maybe we should tell everyone riding a stallion who dares to show him that they are fools.

Or, that she is going to spend a lot of money showing? Wow, I didn't know that there was a cheap way to show at FEI. Foolish me.

Methinks, perhaps you are jealous? Or have another agenda?

What posts are you reading? I don't get your responses at all. They don't make sense and they seem pretty angry for some odd reason. No one is telling *everyone* to do anything. The OP is talking about a friend she is clearly concerned about. How strange that you accuse her of being jealous or having another agenda given what several people with experience with breeding facilites, stallions and foals have posted. To me, she's being a concerned friend. I'd like to have a friend like her.

Twelve year olds do not handle stud colts at Iron Spring Farm. Yes, Glendale has been a long-time 4-H stallion. However, children don't train babies. Adults 4-H leaders train babies and children assist when appropriate. I highly doubt that ISF would recommend a first-time foal handle raise a stud colt for breeding on their own. Lets be realistic.

I'm so happy that your experiences have been great. You should respect that other people share the OPs concerns. Not everyone has to agree with you, do they? Geez. Luckily, yours is one point of view. I'm happy to hear that the OP does plan to inject a little reality into her friend's life.

J.

[MaryhelenM]

OK There is a lot of sense to what everyone is saying. But I wonder what Bill Gates friends said!!! I think the odds are against her. I think she could get hurt. But as a small breeder who has won some very special awards, I say go for it. We need to remember that many huge success stories are about the horse found in the backyard, the computer company started in a garage, the odd idea that led to a pet rock, hula hoop, or very successful horse.

You can tell her it is stupid, but help her when she gets in trouble or support her when she succeeds. I don't ride very well at all at my age, but somehow I breed really nice horses. If I'd listened to everyone else, some exceptional horses would not exist.

[slc2]

for me, the hope is that no one will EVER 'give up their dream' or not 'go for it'. The hope instead, is that the person will plan for a way to reach that goal that is more likely to succeed. that in the face of cautions and warnings and concerns from friends, will devise a plan that goes beyond just buying a colt, but also figuring out how to take care of him and take responsibility for his future. a spoiled, untrained young studcolt is 1 step from a dog food can if something happens to the owner.

i think it's really cool for someone to want a stud colt and to want to train it to gp. i also think having a reasonable plan to do that is the best way to make it happen. getting a trainer, getting a reasonable facility, having a 2, 3, 5 year plan and goals for each quarter of those years. having someone guide the person in how to train, ride and handle the horse.

[Mozart]

I would say that your friend's plan has a lot of potential pitfalls, the biggest one being the stallion issue, but you know your friend. Is she the type to do a lot of research, consider good advice and then work hard to a goal? Or is she the type who always jumps into new things and then never sees it through? If the former, it could work. Everyone starts somewhere and the consequences aren't always dire. I bought my first weanling 10 yrs ago and had 0 clue about handling young horses. I made some mistakes, we both survived and the horse ultimately became a useful well mannered equine citizen. Knowing better, I don't repeat some of the mistakes I made 10 years ago. The biggest lesson I have learned is to trust my instincts.

You should encourage your friend to get some training in the handling of stallions, there is more to it than to the "average" horse, and to learn about breeding, licensing, approvals etc. If she is of the former ilk she will want to learn as much as she can.

If she is more a "flavour of the month" person, really, all you can do is nod and smile and hope for the best. You telling her that her plan is crazy is likely not going to change anything.

[PetraR]

Well, there is nothing wrong with having big dreams. Lots of people buy dressage prospects with the hopes of doing GP some day. Mostly, this does not happen because reality bites. But there is no harm in trying to advance as far as possible in dressage (or any other discipline).

But the whole breeding stallion idea is nutty. I think your friend will discover on her own that young stallions can be a handful (to say the least). I think that she will hastily have to call the vet for an emergency gelding...in the near future.

Also, I have learned through painful experience that your friends really do not want to listen to reason. They get ideas in their heads, you tactfully point out the weaknesses in these ideas - friends want to hear none of it! I have also given up trying to sort of my friend's problems - now I sleep much better.

Good luck to you!

[tri]

Twelve year olds do not handle stud colts at Iron Spring Farm.

I never said they did. But 12 year olds do however buy breedings from Iron Spring's stallions under their 4-H program - and other breeding farms' 4-H programs - and those 12 year olds end up with foals out of their mares and many are colts!

However, children don't train babies. Adults 4-H leaders train babies and children assist when appropriate. I highly doubt that ISF would recommend a first-time foal handle raise a stud colt for breeding on their own. Lets be realistic.

This just isn't true. They are mostly on their own family farms and they do handle the resulting foals and I have never seen the "blood and gore" that was expressed by other posters. Adult 4-H'ers aren't there on these individuals' farms training their babies for them. Often, 4-H kids go to a monthly meeting and that is it. And Iron Spring Farm and other farms do sell breedings to kids - 4-H and not 4-H who have never had a foal before. I personally know of about 15 of them.

what several people with experience with breeding facilites, stallions and foals have posted.

Yeah, I'm calling it into question. I don't believe most of it and I think quite a few of the people who have posted have NO experience doing it and are repeating urban legends. And, I do get sick and tired of the mantra some people go on and on about with regards to stallions .

I think that she will hastily have to call the vet for an emergency gelding...in the near future.

And I have said that as well. It is an EASY fix if she decides she can't or doesn't want to keep him whole - not a reason to persuade her from ever even getting the yearling in the first place. It would take what a half hour and about three hundred dollars and, voila! problem solved. And you want her to just forgo it altogether? That is what I don't understand.

[Eclectic Horseman]

And I have said that as well. It is an EASY fix if she decides she can't or doesn't want to keep him whole - not a reason to persuade her from ever even getting the yearling in the first place. It would take what a half hour and about three hundred dollars and, voila! problem solved. And you want her to just forgo it altogether? That is what I don't understand.

Actually, it can take a year or so for the extra testosterone to dissipate after gelding. Depending on the animals age at the time of gelding, some of the stereotypical behaviors of the stallion may not go away.

The adult beginner in horse husbandry would be well advised to be in a program such as 4-H in which she can get practical assistance.

[egontoast]

Just reading the title of this thread it seemed the OP was mainly complaining about her friend's GP dream. There really is no harm in that dream. These things tend to sort themselves out and once in a while the dreams GASP even come true as in " Everyone thought we were crazy but we did it!"

More often, of course, dreams will get adjusted from year to year to come into sync with reality but there is really no harm in aiming Big.

Aim for the moon, you may get the stars, to roughly paraphrase from that most excellent Bette Davis movie, Now Voyager!

[tri]

Egontoast, EXACTLY!

Eclectic Horseman, now now now. You know that isn't usually true. I can't tell you how many 3,4,5 year old warmblood stallions were imported, gelded as soon as they got here to the U.S. were sold to teenagers or adults to do junior jumpers, various hunter divisions, dressage work within the first year and are happily, quietly going about their work to the absolute love and devotion of their sometime younger, sometimes older riders, usually clueless riders. Tsk, tsk. This idea of "stallion" has got some of you just completely out in left field.

Have any of you been to Europe? Stallions are routinely handled - yes, big, strong, athletic warmblood STALLIONS - by young riders as well as older riders. I saw a dressage demonstration by an 11 year old riding a stallion a few years ago in Oldenburg. She was wonderful, her stallion extremely well behaved and no blood, gore, tears or injuries anywhere close at hand.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Egontoast, EXACTLY!

Eclectic Horseman, now now now. You know that isn't usually true. I can't tell you how many 3,4,5 year old warmblood stallions were imported, gelded as soon as they got here to the U.S. were sold to teenagers or adults to do junior jumpers, various hunter divisions, dressage work within the first year and are happily, quietly going about their work to the absolute love and devotion of their sometime younger, sometimes older riders, usually clueless riders. Tsk, tsk. This idea of "stallion" has got some of you just completely out in left field.

Have any of you been to Europe? Stallions are routinely handled - yes, big, strong, athletic warmblood STALLIONS - by young riders as well as older riders. I saw a dressage demonstration by an 11 year old riding a stallion a few years ago in Oldenburg. She was wonderful, her stallion extremely well behaved and no blood, gore, tears or injuries anywhere close at hand.

In my experience, it has been true. I accept the fact that different breeds may differ.

You should also acknowledge the fact that all stud colts mature at different rates, and that a horse as a yearling will generally behave differently than a sexually mature horse. A well trained, well mannered aged stallion, is of course, different than a 5 year old, wouldn't you agree?

If you have never seen a stallion ravage a mare, kill a goat or injure a handler--not out of malice, but just pure hormonal excitement, then I guess it would not occur to you that this can happen. Stallions are not geldings, and it is not wise to treat them casually as though they were.

And the OP wasn't talking about a young person. She was talking about a middle aged woman who learned to ride as an adult. One is not born with the knowledge of handling young stock or stallions and does not learn it in the ordinary course of learning to ride.

There is a reason that most boarding facilities will not accept stallions as boarders.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Egontoast, EXACTLY!

Eclectic Horseman, now now now. You know that isn't usually true. I can't tell you how many 3,4,5 year old warmblood stallions were imported, gelded as soon as they got here to the U.S. were sold to teenagers or adults to do junior jumpers, various hunter divisions, dressage work within the first year and are happily, quietly going about their work to the absolute love and devotion of their sometime younger, sometimes older riders, usually clueless riders. Tsk, tsk. This idea of "stallion" has got some of you just completely out in left field.

Have any of you been to Europe? Stallions are routinely handled - yes, big, strong, athletic warmblood STALLIONS - by young riders as well as older riders. I saw a dressage demonstration by an 11 year old riding a stallion a few years ago in Oldenburg. She was wonderful, her stallion extremely well behaved and no blood, gore, tears or injuries anywhere close at hand.

Um, no, not just a stallion.

A young, unbroke, not professionally handled stud colt coming of age. Whole different ball game! :no:

The age of the rider is not the issue. The age and training of the COLT is the issue!

[tri]

Eclectic, as I said, I breed warmbloods. I am on my 3rd generation with my mare line. So, yes, I have seen things. I've seen fully "professionally" trained older hunters freak out at a horse show, jump into the stands, climb through them and fall out the other side, sending people flying in all different directions. I've seen fully mature "professionally" trained mares run right over the top of their "professional" trainer. I've seen quiet "professionally" trained geldings standing on their hind legs and flipping over backwards. I've seen older, quiet "professionally" trained pony geldings rip a kid's ear off with their teeth. So, according to you, a middle-aged rider shouldn't have ANY horse because all of those things happened.

I can however, name a few success stories of people who have done something similar: Rodioso is a black Oldenburg stallion. The lady who bought him in Germany went overseas to purchase a new dressage mount. She was/is a middle-aged lady who had aspirations of going up through the levels to GP. She saw Rodioso who was a then 3 year old stallion going through the inspection process. She decided to buy him and maybe geld him. But, then she thought, what the heck, I'll keep him a stallion. He came to the U.S., she trained and rode him having a lot of success and brought him up through the levels. She had never had a stallion before but she had instruction from some good trainers. He is now 10 years old and she decided to sell him and I think he is now syndicated and approved with multiple wb registries.

Another story, is the story of Triple Twist. Triple Twist was a, I think, 4 year old unbroke and mostly unhandled TB stallion with the famous Good Twist bloodlines. A teenage girl bought him in a going out of business auction, broke him herself and started eventing him. He has generated a LOT of interest because of his bloodlines and the girl is tickled pink to have this once in a lifetime opportunity to own a stallion of such famous lineage and is having a blast bringing him up the levels in eventing.

People, I believe, want to sensationalize the bad "urban myth" stories which tend to grow and grow the more people "hear" about them. Few want to take the time to see what is the boring old everyday reality of what most people do and for most who own a competition stallion, its not that dramatic! But it is a whole lot of fun and very rewarding.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Eclectic, as I said, I breed warmbloods. I am on my 3rd generation with my mare line. So, yes, I have seen things. I've seen fully "professionally" trained older hunters freak out at a horse show, jump into the stands, climb through them and fall out the other side, sending people flying in all different directions. I've seen fully mature "professionally" trained mares run right over the top of their "professional" trainer. I've seen quiet "professionally" trained geldings standing on their hind legs and flipping over backwards. I've seen older, quiet "professionally" trained pony geldings rip a kid's ear off with their teeth. So, according to you, a middle-aged rider shouldn't have ANY horse because all of those things happened.

I can however, name a few success stories of people who have done something similar: Rodioso is a black Oldenburg stallion. The lady who bought him in Germany went overseas to purchase a new dressage mount. She was/is a middle-aged lady who had aspirations of going up through the levels to GP. She saw Rodioso who was a then 3 year old stallion going through the inspection process. She decided to buy him and maybe geld him. But, then she thought, what the heck, I'll keep him a stallion. He came to the U.S., she trained and rode him having a lot of success and brought him up through the levels. She had never had a stallion before but she had instruction from some good trainers. He is now 10 years old and she decided to sell him and I think he is now syndicated and approved with multiple wb registries.

Another story, is the story of Triple Twist. Triple Twist was a, I think, 4 year old unbroke and mostly unhandled TB stallion with the famous Good Twist bloodlines. A teenage girl bought him in a going out of business auction, broke him herself and started eventing him. He has generated a LOT of interest because of his bloodlines and the girl is tickled pink to have this once in a lifetime opportunity to own a stallion of such famous lineage and is having a blast bringing him up the levels in eventing.

People, I believe, want to sensationalize the bad "urban myth" stories which tend to grow and grow the more people "hear" about them. Few want to take the time to see what is the boring old everyday reality of what most people do and for most who own a competition stallion, its not that dramatic! But it is a whole lot of fun and very rewarding.

There are exceptions to every rule. They are exceptions.

Maybe this person that the OP is talking about will be an exception, too. Heck, if they are usually that easy why are the vast majority of horses gelded?

Raising and training a stud colt is NOT for everybody. Properly trained and handled they are not demons. But when you see the number of people that have to run off to NH trainers to help them get "respect" from their aged QH geldings, the thought of people like this raising a stallion is nuts.

[Orange Horse]

I had to laugh reading this post and wondering if it was me! But I've ridden through 4th on a 4th level horse :> I bought a yearling cob stallion and started him myself and hope that he will go up the levels. Due to my current job and family situation, I've sent him to a GP trainer and he is doing well. However, he will be 5 this year and is only showing training level (but he is very quiet and is what we call in East Texas a "using horse" that can be taken anywhere). Is it a cost effective way to get a GP, or even FEI horse? No. Do I have a vet on standby in case his behavior warrants gelding? Yes. Am I having enough fun riding him occasionally and looking at photos of him showing to justify the bills? Yes. So what harm? Let the poor lady enjoy herself. She'll figure it out and geld him if he is a handfull.

[ctanner]

One of the major problems with her plan in MO is that she currently has no trainer.She has the her horses as home 2 mares,2 geldings,and this stud colt.
She does not have neighbors who are horse people and is a half an hour or more away from her nearest horse-person friend.
I am aware that some stallions are very well behaved horses.I have worked with several stallions,one who carried me over some of the biggest X-country fences I ever jumped.And yes,he was a breeding stallion.
I am concerned and frustrated because she seems to think that going to a few clinic are going to be enough.She does not have a network of people close to where she lives to help her.
Some of the post have been great and given me ideas and ways to offer help.
I really want her to be SAFE and happy.

[slc2]

i think it's time to move on, though (move on from worrying about how to get her to change her mind and get a more reasonable, more likely to succeed plan). she is very unlikely to change or ammend her plan, as you can see from some of the angry, defensive 'why not' responses to your question, once most folks get an idea in their mind that they wanna do something, not much will change it.

A lot of times it's very good to be pig headed and determined to do something. But it's also good to have a realistic plan and to recognize the pro's and con's. There's an article in one of the magainzes this month about three amateur riders who had their dream come true - to ride grand prix at a show. The way they got there is very, very interesting.

[J-Lu]

I had to laugh reading this post and wondering if it was me! But I've ridden through 4th on a 4th level horse :> I bought a yearling cob stallion and started him myself and hope that he will go up the levels. Due to my current job and family situation, I've sent him to a GP trainer and he is doing well. However, he will be 5 this year and is only showing training level (but he is very quiet and is what we call in East Texas a "using horse" that can be taken anywhere). Is it a cost effective way to get a GP, or even FEI horse? No. Do I have a vet on standby in case his behavior warrants gelding? Yes. Am I having enough fun riding him occasionally and looking at photos of him showing to justify the bills? Yes. So what harm? Let the poor lady enjoy herself. She'll figure it out and geld him if he is a handfull.

Is your cob with Nancy Hinz, warmblood and cob rider extraordinairre?
ETA: but yoru website says you've been breeding and training cobs since 1999. 9 years. You're not the same as the friend of the OP! Oh, and I see it is not Nancy on your cob! I think I've seen your guy go!

[Touchstone Farm]

There are always exceptions to the rules, either way. However, I don't think someone inexperienced handling stallions should handle stallions. Some are like pussy cats, and some are hormonal nightmares. Look at Cabana Boy! Fabulous horse, but couldn't handle his hormones at the same time as his training (from what I understand). Now he can just focus on his work, and look at what he is doing!!! It's great to watch.

I think it's fine to have a dream. Getting to GP is a big enough dream, but getting there with a stallion when one is inexperienced in handling them? Why, let's just make the dream harder! And for what reason? Because you want to own a stallion -- again for what reason? 'Cuz you'll make millions? hahahahaha 'Cuz your stallion is the best thing since sliced bread? With so many options of fantastic stallions, available both fresh and frozen, if you stand a stallion, it better be something pretty darn special.

I've seen too many people keep their colts intact...and the colts live nightmare lives, are horribly behaved, the owners desperately searching for "cowboys" to help them put manners on them, etc. I don't get it -- sometimes my 2-year-old GELDINGS are handfuls. I can't imagine adding the hormones to the equation and I've ridden all my life (but am still an amatuer). Why make life more complicated than it needs to be? Leave the stallions to professionals...even the "pussy cat" stallions. Then just focus on the dream of riding to GP. That's difficult enough!

[tri]

Touchstone, you have some valid points. It is hard enough to make it to GP on ANY HORSE. Try taking a mare in the first flush of spring to a show - some are good, some are bonkers.

But, I do take exception to your question of "why?". Why do ANYTHING with ANY horse? I'll put it like you do "'Cuz you'll make millions? hahahahaha " No, few do ANYTHING with a horse because they want to make millions. Why do people ride Fresians? To make millions? Why do people want to breed "true Oldenburgs, or true Dutch wb, or true Holsteiners"? To make millions? Why do people want a black/bay, 16.2hand hunter with 4 white socks and a star? To make millions? Why do people want a palomino? To make millions? Why do people want a project horse? To make millions? No, and why would someone want to own a stallion? Because they watched too many episodes of The Black Stallion? - well that is just as good a reason as the person who wants to event because they watched too many episodes of International Velvet.

People ride dressage, ride hunters, ride 3-day, trail ride, breed horses and own mares, foals and/or stallions all for the simple reason of BECAUSE THEY WANT TO.

And if they want to own a stallion, train with hopes of getting better or simply decide they want to trail ride, for pete's sake LET THEM. If it gets ugly - as it can with any horse - let them take the appropriate action. Thats called life.

[Eclectic Horseman]

No, and why would someone want to own a stallion? Because they watched too many episodes of The Black Stallion? - well that is just as good a reason as the person who wants to event because they watched too many episodes of International Velvet.

And if they want to own a stallion, train with hopes of getting better or simply decide they want to trail ride, for pete's sake LET THEM. If it gets ugly - as it can with any horse - let them take the appropriate action. Thats called life.

And sometimes its called "abuse." The last horse that I backed was a black Arabian, purchased as a weanling by a non-equestrian family with a little girl who wanted "The Black Stallion." By the time the owner who hired me rescued this horse as a yearling, he was tethered by a short lead line with a chain over his nose in the corner of his stall. The owners were literally just throwing the feed at him because they were afraid to get too close.

Even after gelding, this horse had a lot of fear aggression and was very defensive and nervous about interaction with humans. He did not fare well with other horses either because he had been kept isolated and was unable to socialize with other horses. As a rising two year old, he was seriously injured when attacked by an aged ("babysitter") gelding that he tried to mount in turnout.

Not to rain on anybody's parade, but a good friend and a good horseman would advise someone without any experience who wants to try raising a young stallion, to educate herself and to get some skilled assistance.

[tri]

You know, Eclectic, these little stories of yours have absolutely NOTHING to do with the horse in question being a stallion. I could name about a zillion stories that sound just like that of the person who was scared of their pony, their mare, their gelding, their donkey, their dog, their neighbor, or whatever. If people act stupid, it will happen with all the above. If they act reasonably, get training when need - for the stallion, for the mare, for the gelding or whatever - then things work out. Your posts border on foolishness. Its like, once upon a time, there was a billy goat who lived under a bridge, so no one should own a billy goat.

[Kit]

I couldn't imagine someone with only a few years of horse experience an now being in her fifties raising and handling a yearling colt and being intent on keeping him in tact. I bred my yearling -first horse i've ever bred and hoped it would be a filly but no...a colt. He spent lots of time on his back legs with his mother and baby sitter - was very colty from early on. I had him gelded at 6 months before he was weaned. I have had to be one step ahead of him all the time but he is a joy now. I don't think your friend knows what she is letting herself in for but she will soon realise. At least she can geld him anytime - and she may just do that. It's pretty easy to get hurt with any youngster let alone a colt. I hope she is open minded.... Edited to say that mind you, if she leaves him alone and doesn't spoil him, gets him gelded? gets the training when it's needed, he should fine

[FancyFree]

I couldn't imagine someone with only a few years of horse experience an now being in her fifties raising and handling a yearling colt and being intent on keeping him in tact. I bred my yearling -first horse i've ever bred and hoped it would be a filly but no...a colt. He spent lots of time on his back legs with his mother and baby sitter - was very colty from early on. I had him gelded at 6 months before he was weaned. I have had to be one step ahead of him all the time but he is a joy now. I don't think your friend knows what she is letting herself in for but she will soon realise. At least she can geld him anytime - and she may just do that. It's pretty easy to get hurt with any youngster let alone a colt. I hope she is open minded.... Edited to say that mind you, if she leaves him alone and doesn't spoil him, gets him gelded? gets the training when it's needed, he should fine

That's funny. When I bred my mare, I prayed hard for a colt, which I would have gelded as soon as possible. But I got a filly. She's an Arabian disguised as a Hanoverian. You're right though that the friend probably doesn't realize what she's getting into. Babies can be tough and exhausting.

Just be supportive and lend a hand or advice when she asks for it.

[Eclectic Horseman]

You know, Eclectic, these little stories of yours have absolutely NOTHING to do with the horse in question being a stallion. I could name about a zillion stories that sound just like that of the person who was scared of their pony, their mare, their gelding, their donkey, their dog, their neighbor, or whatever. If people act stupid, it will happen with all the above. If they act reasonably, get training when need - for the stallion, for the mare, for the gelding or whatever - then things work out. Your posts border on foolishness. Its like, once upon a time, there was a billy goat who lived under a bridge, so no one should own a billy goat.

Be as insulting as you like. That will not change my experience, nor the experience of most horsemen who have dealt with young stallions. Young studs are different than geldings. Period.

Believe otherwise if you choose. It will not change reality. :rolleyes:

[Arabian Knights]

The adult beginner in horse husbandry would be well advised to be in a program such as 4-H in which she can get practical assistance.

Is there such a program for adults? I always thought 4-H was just for kids?

[Ambrey]

So, according to you, a middle-aged rider shouldn't have ANY horse because all of those things happened.


I think this is a pretty common thought. Middle aged women who either don't have a lot of experience or have been out of horses for a while should just stay away.

I don't know the OP's friend, but a lot of the middle aged women I know have managed careers and children and juggling a family- they may not know everything, but they know how to learn it. Everyone had to start somewhere!

[Arabian Knights]

I think this is a pretty common thought. Middle aged women who either don't have a lot of experience or have been out of horses for a while should just stay away.

I don't know the OP's friend, but a lot of the middle aged women I know have managed careers and children and juggling a family- they may not know everything, but they know how to learn it. Everyone had to start somewhere!

:mad:That kind of thinking may be common but we :winkgrin: (as I am a middle aged woman) should work to change that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It does the horses and the horse industry a severe disservice. After-all who will be left to support these lovely creatures, or their trainers for that matter if it isn't for us hard workin' middle aged girls that get back into horses b/c now we finally have the money to do so. :cool:
Not everyone is lucky enough to be born into the money!

[FancyFree]

:mad:That kind of thinking may be common but we :winkgrin: (as I am a middle aged woman) should work to change that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It does the horses and the horse industry a severe disservice. After-all who will be left to support these lovely creatures, or their trainers for that matter if it isn't for us hard workin' middle aged girls that get back into horses b/c now we finally have the money to do so. :cool:
Not everyone is lucky enough to be born into the money!

Do you find this the common thought Arabian Knights? Because I've never seen it. I've seen criticism of people, of any age, who get into a sport and become instant experts. They're total beginners, yet unwilling to take any advice. Those people, when they're dealing with horses, invariably end up getting hurt. I think the OP is simply being a friend who is concerned about her friend's safety. I don't get that she wants to discourage her from horses all together.

[Ambrey]

Do you find this the common thought Arabian Knights? Because I've never seen it. I've seen criticism of people, of any age, who get into a sport and become instant experts. They're total beginners, yet unwilling to take any advice. Those people, when they're dealing with horses, invariably end up getting hurt. I think the OP is simply being a friend who is concerned about her friend's safety. I don't get that she wants to discourage her from horses all together.

But if someone is learning, then they ARE taking advice- just not necessarily the advice of the person complaining ;) As someone who has been accused of "not taking advice," while I had a trainer, was working with my horse, bought books and videos, asked friends for help, etc. etc., I will say that there is no way for one to take ALL of the advice one is given, as much of it is conflicting!

I was SO discouraged by the "advice" I was getting (much of which involved "sell your horse and get one suitable for a middle aged beginner") that if it hadn't been for the above mentioned friends and trainers, I might have given up.

And guess what- it's not just beginners that get injured by horses. I heard that a lot, and after I got hurt I got a lot of "I told you so" from the peanut gallery, but the friends and trainers all shared their own war stories. Horseback riding is not a safe sport. If you are pushing your horse athletically, you'll end up on the ground at some point. Best to just face that up front (and not let it get you down!).

So OP, if your friend is set on her course, for her own reasons, do what you can to help and support her. Help her learn how to manage a stallion, find resources that will help her understand what to look for. Make sure she can talk to you, and does NOT feel like you're constantly waiting for problems, because if problems do arise you might be one of her best avenues for support. It's just like we say with our kids- the best way to keep them safe is to keep the lines of communication open.

And when she hits rough spots, the least helpful thing you can do is tell her to give up or say "see?" Just help her through them, remind her that all horse owning is a learning experience, and she just chose the path that would require the steepest learning curve!

[FancyFree]

I think this is a pretty common thought. Middle aged women who either don't have a lot of experience or have been out of horses for a while should just stay away.

This is what I'm responding to. Um, no, that's not common. Maybe it's just YOUR experience. I've always tried to be helpful and welcoming to all beginners that I encounter. That's all I've seen from others with experience as well. They want to help those just starting out.

And guess what- it's not just beginners that get injured by horses. I heard that a lot, and after I got hurt I got a lot of "I told you so" from the peanut gallery, but the friends and trainers all shared their own war stories. Horseback riding is not a safe sport. If you are pushing your horse athletically, you'll end up on the ground at some point. Best to just face that up front (and not let it get you down!)

Sure experienced riders get hurt all the time. But a beginner handling a young horse is more likely than anyone to end up hurt. If you are a beginner rider on a green horse, chances are very good that you will end up injured. I think that's all the OP is worried about: the safety of her friend. It's not a conspiracy to get newbie middle aged women out of horses. :lol:

[Ambrey]

This is what I'm responding to. Um, no, that's not common. Maybe it's just YOUR experience. I've always tried to be helpful and welcoming to all beginners that I encounter. That's all I've seen from others with experience as well. They want to help those just starting out.

I don't mean that this is what the OP is doing at all. I just mean that there's an undertone to responses on these types of BBs that is very discouraging to people re-entering the horse world, especially middle-aged women.

I simply think that many people, especially younger people, really underestimate the ability of women in their middle years to adapt to a situation and grow with it. What some might see as getting in over your head, the woman in question might see as learning how to swim.

The OP wants to protect her friend, but what are the chances that she's going to stop her friend from doing what she wants to do? Pretty slim, if her friend is anything like me or the many other past-their-prime women I know ;) So the best alternative is to keep the lines open, but warm and supportive, and be there when she's needed.

p.s. I don't think this friend is a beginner- she is a TL/1st rider who has been riding for about 6 years. That's as long as most of the ~19 year olds who are starting green horses. And there are plenty of people who bring their own horses up through the levels without prior experience.

[FancyFree]

I don't mean that this is what the OP is doing at all. I just mean that there's an undertone to responses on these types of BBs that is very discouraging to people re-entering the horse world, especially middle-aged women.


I'm sorry but I don't see that at all. The boards I participate on, I've found the posters to be very helpful and supportive. Again, I think this was YOUR particular experience. You may want to spin it that people are discouraging to middle aged women, but I haven't found that to be the case at all. Maybe it was just you. ;)

And there are plenty of people who bring their own horses up through the levels without prior experience.

Uh she's talking about a stallion. Little bit of difference there. ;)

[Ambrey]

I'm sorry but I don't see that at all. The boards I participate on, I've found the posters to be very helpful and supportive. Again, I think this was YOUR particular experience. You may want to spin it that people are discouraging to middle aged women, but I haven't found that to be the case at all. Maybe it was just you. ;)

Just me and the friend of the OP, I guess. I don't find a lot of talking about how people just want to buy the pretty horse and have no sense to be very optimistic about the ability of the rider to adapt to the situation.

Of course the fact that it's a stallion makes it different. There is also a quick fix to that problem if it gets beyond her ability to cope- it's called castration ;) Of course, nobody has any faith in this friend's ability to deal with the problems as they arise, and change her plan to suit the situation. If she was 30 would they have more faith?

[FancyFree]

If she was 30 would they have more faith?


I give up. Yes it's because you are over forty that people have discouraged you about buying a green horse. It has nothing what so ever to do with the fact that you are an absolute beginner. It's a middle aged woman conspiracy. Run by the WB conspirators, no doubt. :rolleyes:

I'd put you on ignore but I want to be able to follow your FEI career. ;)

[Ambrey]

I give up. Yes it's because you are over forty that people have discouraged you about buying a green horse. It has nothing what so ever to do with the fact that you are an absolute beginner. It's a middle aged woman conspiracy. Run by the WB conspirators, no doubt. :rolleyes:

I'd put you on ignore but I want to be able to follow your FEI career. ;)

Yep, I'm an absolute beginner who has had more years with horses than many people on this board have been out of diapers. Exactly my point.

People hear what they want to hear, make the judgements they wish to make, and it's based on their beliefs about the person in question. My opinions about biases have a lot more to do with my MA in psychology than my experiences online, but thanks for letting me know what you really think :lol:.

[slc2]

i hope you two are getting something out of this little exchange. :lol:

[Ambrey]

i hope you two are getting something out of this little exchange. :lol:

Finger strength!

[FancyFree]

Why bother?

I'm finished slc. :yes: Maybe three's a charm. :lol:

[sid]

For what it's worth, I think Eclectic Horseman's posts were on target and wise advice for the OP who appears to be concerned about the safety and well being for dear friend.

I might add that the OP might suggest to her friend that she spend a week at the stallion station at CSU or take the short course on stallion handling/breeding asap. It's hands on work with valuable information on how to raise a stallion to hopefully be a tractable, solid citizen first and foremost.

That's exactly what I did back in 1993 before I made any decision to geld or not to geld my 2 yr. old homebred colt -- and I was already an experienced horseman and handler (but with no practical experience with stallions).

Raising a stallion and getting a horse of any type to GP are two mutually exclusive undertakings, neither of which is particulary easy. Kudos to anyone who wants to give it a whirl, but education with a good dose of reality is key for the benefit of both the horse and the person with the dreams for it, IMO.

[Moderator 1]

We removed a couple of posts that were getting off topic and a little personal. ;)

Thanks!