Winging Out - Will it lead to soundness issues?

[Tiligsmom]

The little Fjord I'm thinking of purchasing wings out significantly with his left front.

For those of you "in the know", should I be concerned about this?

Thanks!;)

[BaroquePony]

Well, the asymetry is strange, but could be due to his lack of correct training.

Winging is generally to be avoided for several reasons. Over time it can lead to unsoundness; it is an indication that the bones are not straight and balanced all the way down the leg. Second, if you are going to work this horse "correctly" in dressage there will be problems with containing the energy that you generate from behind into the front. The front of the pony is way off balance and you won't be able to contain the energy in a symetrical manner. That will probably put undue stress on the straight leg.

He could be winging due to really bad riding on the part of whoever has been riding him, but if he hasn't done much work under saddle, I would count that out.

If his winging is a conformation fault, I would consider the pony to be good for basic trail riding and not think of a career in anything competitive.

BUT, some horses like this stay sound for their entire lives even if they are ridden hard and consistently.

[camohn]

we we have 2 wingers....both are polo horses so they work pretty hard. One is an 8 YO QH hubby got cheap because he was not a show prospect with The Wing. The other is an Appy/TB cross. She is 15 or 16 now. She is going lame and needs to be retired but not because of that....she has arthritis (ringbone) in her left hind and can still run but no longer wants to sit back to spin and turn. She is pasture/trail sound and can play one chukker yet but not a second without getting sore so she will be retired at the end of the 08 season.

[slc2]

it usually doesn't harm anything. judges don't mark off for it. some of the best dressage horses in the world do that...and....30 kazillian lusitanos and andalusians can't be wrong, LOL.

you may find one foot does it more than another...usually still not a problem....and you may find once he's properly trimmed and shod and ridden on different footing, and TURNING BETTER IN THE BRIDLE, LOL, that it is less.

alot of horses APPEAR to wing out when they're not bending properly. their feet kinda keep going west and their head is going east, and this is usually more noticeable in one direction...ACTUALLY...i kinda thought that was what was going on, not that there was anything wrong with his feet.

i do though check it out if it's only one foot and on a straight line, but the prepurchase xrays should take care of determining if it's a problem or not. one horse we looked at winged out in one foot because the wing of one pedal bone was underdeveloped (congenital). as long as the FARRIER DOESN'T TRY TO FIX IT, LOL...it's fine.

[AndalusianMom]

My 19-year-old I-1 stallion wings, and it's never affected his soundness--he's still going strong.
Ditto my 12 and 10 year olds.
Lots of PREs and Lusitanos wing; some breeders like it. :)

[slc2]

it is however something that for many many years was highly disliked in the hunter world, and that dislike carried over to the dressage world for a very long time, til a lot of very sound lusitanos and andalusians showed up who do it.

and as with most things like that, the reason given for avoiding it was much more of an 'oh-my-god' reason than 'we don't like it because...because we didn't like it for a long time'. :lol:

it is absolutely NOT marked off in dressage, not a judge in the world will mark it down, UNLESS - unles s the animal sways from side to side or the shoulder is used in a cramped, abnormal fashio.

it is very much permitted and some top class wb as well as lusitanos and andalusians do this to a marked degree with no bad effects ever.

it does have to be emphasized that a horse that wings out naturally, isn't in any pain or discomfort and there isn't anything bad happening - no strain or heat or swelling is felt on the lower leg...

plus...most importantly....the foot after all that, still lands essentially normally, has normal wear and functions fine. this type emphatically do NOT go unsound as there is no undue strain on any part of the leg.

and if it's 'normal' for them, they've moved like that very consistently since they were born..if a horse's gait CHANGES SUDDENLY to a very different flight path, i would be concerned.

in 'Handley Cross' the hero says he likes horses that interfere as they kick stones out of their own path with their own feet...lol(there is a very lengthy discussion of WHICH stones which types of horses kick and how many times)...also horses that knock down stone walls in the hunt field, as more people will follow you so they can jump the lower gap, and when you stop at the tavern you have a bigger crowd to drink with.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Whoa. The nomenclature needs to be cleaned up here. The OP said "winging out."

According to the USPC manual on conformation and soundness:

"Winging in" is when the horse's front feet toe out, and when he picks up and bends his leg at the ankle the hoof arcs inward toward the other ankle. This can cause a soundness problem when the horse strikes one leg with the other shod hoof.

"Paddling" is what it is called when the horse's front hooves toe in, and when he picks up his leg and bends it at the ankle the hoof goes out to the side, away from the opposing leg. Paddling doesn't usually cause a soundness problem and is desireable in some breeds (Paso Fino, for example) as it makes for a smooth easy to sit gait.

Either conformational problem, toe out or toe in, can cause stress on the joints and lead to arthritis overtime. This mostly depends on whether the joint is in alignment with the rest of the leg.

[rileyt]

I absolutely disagree that judges do not mark off for it. They most certainly do (and should). It is, at a minimum, a part of the horse's gaits. Is this going to make a difference for a well trained, otherwise nice, horse showing at 1st level locally? Probably not.

As for soundness... well... I think it depends.

My experience is that horses that wing bi-laterally, just a bit, don't tend to have many problems... especially if they're being ridden primarily on the flat, in places with good footing. So, for a 7-year old with a competition record when you have a nice dressage barn with good footing, I wouldn't worry too much.

For a young prospect, I'd pass... because the fact is you NEVER know how its going to affect the horse. As others have said, its usually a sign that the leg is crooked higher up. Take a GOOD LOOK at the winging leg from the front... and compare it to the non-winging leg. You may notice that the knee or fetlock is dramatically rotated in or out. This causes an improper loading on the joints, and vastly increases the chances that the horse will not be sound... or at least will not be sound later in his life.

All that said, I knew an ex-polo pony who winged out dramatically on one side. She was used as a great all around riding horse. She jumped, did dressage, did pony club. And she was mostly a very sound horse. By the time she was 17, she had some sporadic lameness (frequently in that rotated leg), but overall she was quite productive. So... you never know.

[goingforbaroque]

If I passed on my horse as a youngster because he paddled then I'd not be showing GP today. The judges have NEVER commented on it and he conintually gets 7's (some 8's) for gaits. If I was buying a $50,000 + dressage prospect then I'd have to seriously think about it but in your case I'd not worry about it too much. Buying a horse is such a crap shoot anyway if everyting is what you want then go for it.

[Mozart]

[quote=slc2;3111700].30 kazillian lusitanos and andalusians can't be wrong, LOL.

And a whole bunch of Lippizaners at the SRS....

[slc2]

yeah, all sound, too.

[Tiligsmom]

Thanks, everyone, for your comments!

He gets vetted on Wed by a very good lameness vet, so I"ll let you know the outcome :)

[Cielo Azure]

My own bias is that it is often the horses that have really big front end movement (naturally) that tend to paddle more.

If they are daisy cutters, either it isn't as noticable or it is isn't there in the same way.

So, I kind of expect to see more of it in horses that lift the knees up high.

Winging in is definitely something that is bad, bad, bad. Paddling, is something I can live with especially if front end action is important to me.

Also, I think that horses with big feet (as many European horses have), tend to paddle more than those with little, tiny feet. So, big feet + big movement and the likelyhood of paddling goes way up (like the Lippizaners).

Some paddlers do toe-in but not all. Sometimes, I think it is just a case of throwing great big feet way up in the air and kind of losing control. A lot of times when the gaits are cleaned up, muscle tone is built and the horse learns how to control their movement, the paddling descreases or goes away.

[irishmusic]

This can also be a farrier issue. We had one farrier that shod every horse so that they paddled. After one shoeing my mare started to paddle, too. Changed farriers, and voila! - she no longer paddles.

[Cielo Azure]

This can also be a farrier issue. We had one farrier that shod every horse so that they paddled. After one shoeing my mare started to paddle, too. Changed farriers, and voila! - she no longer paddles.

I agree!!!

[Valentina_32926]

I owned a mare who lived til she was 30, never had any lameness issues, and winged on both front legs. :yes:

Does the winging interfere with his other leg (i.e. if he wings with his front left when he wings does his left front hit his right front)? If not I wouldn't be concerned. :)