Lawsuit against eventing??

[brindille]

Just came across this at http://eventing.zzn.com/:

"We have been notified that a major lawsuit is underway. if you and/or your horse has been hurt in Eventing send your name, phone number and a brief description to webmaster@eventing.zzn.com Our goal is to get the facts on numbers of injuries out... we will not list your name if you request us not to."

I have no idea who's website this is or any other details. I wonder if it is part of the reason why USEA is worried...

[ddashaq]

How on earth do you sue a sport??:confused:

[Tamara in TN]

How on earth do you sue a sport??:confused:

by going after specific organizers and such other folks and entities....never underestimate the slime of an ambulance chaser :(

[Blugal]

Is there a way of finding out who these people are and not accepting their entries?

[RunForIt]

If for nothing else than looking at eventing thru another perspective, visit the website...I think the discussions here on the COTH BB, and surely elsewhere are moving US Eventing out of the fog. Websites like this are a constant reminder - don't get complacent!

I realized as I was reading the website articles/posts, I had never pictured the "other side" in terms of people who had minds and reasoned opposition to our sport. We're at the place where the great feelings of "they're listening to us" wear off and the realization that a lot of thinking, discussion, reasoning, discussion, reflection - and honesty about what we're doing as humans with horses - live, feeling creatures (meaning they feel pain when injured or sore from work) who trust us...is left to do - always.

[snoopy]

If this is indeed legit than I am very saddened.

I will have to say that I am not all together shocked as I was talking to a friend who knows very little of the sport and one of the first things he said is "maybe so and so should instigate a suit":confused::eek:

[LexInVA]

This shouldn't be hard to figure out.

[brindille]

sorry to say it folks, but maybe this is what is needed to make the powers that be listen up. Again, i have no idea who's website this is

[Blugal]

I think a lawsuit is a terrible way of trying to address these issues. What exactly would you sue USEA over? Suing individual organizers or course owners is only going to hurt the sport - after all, most events are run by volunteers on the good graces of the land owners.

If you want to talk about rider responsibility, here's some: this is a risky, dangerous sport. While there are some issues facing the sport, if you are not comfortable with some of the possible outcomes, take up Tiddly-Winks. I think the only danger there is boredom.

[LexInVA]

I guess this would be a sort of class action lawsuit or something.

[oldbutnotdead]

An ambulance chaser lawyer needs a client before suing. The blame should not just be on the lawyers.

[deltawave]

"We have been notified that a major lawsuit is underway".

Who the heck is "we"? I hate it when websites or people refer to themselves as the "royal we" anyway, but this line, coupled with a request to "send your name, number and a brief description" to God knows who strikes me as just bizarre. I can't feel the pulse of this site at all, no pun intended. I get the sense there's an enormous agenda somewhere, but can't put my finger on it. :confused:

[Nomoreusernames]

Darren's brother is one of the most successful "sue 'em up" attorneys in the Buffalo area, Chiacchia and Fleming, very successful.

[Jazzy Lady]

Darren's brother is one of the most successful "sue 'em up" attorneys in the Buffalo area, Chiacchia and Fleming, very successful.

Darren would never be behind the suing of eventing. He knows accidents happen. He's been there, done that, plus he has many friends in all aspects of the sport. He wouldn't back it.

[RunForIt]

Darren would never be behind the suing of eventing. He knows shit happens. He's been there, done that, plus he has many friends in all aspects of the sport. He wouldn't back it.

You have class, JL - thanks for stepping up. Darren is not going to be available for reference in anything but the most positive of terms. Thanks for taking this stance ASAP.

[bambam]

sorry to say it folks, but maybe this is what is needed to make the powers that be listen up. Again, i have no idea who's website this is
A lawsuit is almost never a good way of remedying problems in an organization or sport or program- I have seen it over and over again simply destroy the subject of the lawsuit even if that not the intent.
That being said, I would not accept some random statement from a website no one is familiar with making vague allusions to a lawsuit and supposedly soliciting additional plaintiffs as any actual proof that such a lawsuit is a reality.

[RunForIt]

A lawsuit is almost never a good way of remedying problems in an organization or sport or program- I have seen it over and over again simply destroy the subject of the lawsuit even if that not the intent.
That being said, I would not accept some random statement from a website no one is familiar with making vague allusions to a lawsuit and supposedly soliciting additional plaintiffs as any actual proof that such a lawsuit is a reality.

I don't think its reality - yet. This IS reality: give the ambulance chasers fodder and they will eat. Watch your television for the ads.

[seeuatx]

oooooh, that just burns my toast. :mad: I really, really, really hate the I'm gonna sue attitude that has taken over the world. It's disgusting, really. :no:

[bambam]

yes and no runforit- just as such a lawsuit would be expensive for the USEA or whoever the named defendant(s) is to defend, it will also be very expensive for the plaintiff(s) to litigate- this kind of case is not a good roll of the dice for a contingency lawyer IMO but then again a lawyer who is not educated about the sport may think at first look it is
I do think a lawsuit should be a concern but frankly, this website is not causing me any particular concern- but maybe I am wrong

[CookiePony]

The website is rather unpolished (suggests a poorly-educated lawyer!) and looks like a rant to me. Because it is in the www.zzn.com network, it isn't possible to trace the owner (at least with my rudimentary computer skills).

ETA: I bet COTH might not be thrilled with the wholesale copy-and-paste of a website survey result from last July.

Also, the website seems to have some connection with:

Charlotte Cullen

BSc Student, Sport Sciences

School of Sport Science and Education

Brunel University

Uxbridge, Mddx.UB8 3PH, UK

She is apparently doing a study on the "Emotional Response of Event Riders to Injury."

[PhoenixFarm]

I am not 100% certain, but I believe that website is the product of a parent who lost their child in an accident in competition. I believe the lawsuit referenced is theirs and is aimed at a variety of people who were involved with their child and the sport.

Again, I am not certain, but I had been told such a website existed before, and that it was done by this person etc. The website matches the description given to me by someone who knows the situation more closely.

Very sad all the way around. :(

[RunForIt]

yes and no runforit- just as such a lawsuit would be expensive for the USEA or whoever the named defendant(s) is to defend, it will also be very expensive for the plaintiff(s) to litigate- this kind of case is not a good roll of the dice for a contingency lawyer IMO but then again a lawyer who is not educated about the sport may think at first look it is
I do think a lawsuit should be a concern but frankly, this website is not causing me any particular concern- but maybe I am wrong

I'm not concerned; just know that stupidity can often get headlines. Just glance at the crap available for sale as you check out of the grocery! LOL! :cool:

[Rabbit351w]

The website is very reliable. It links to an article which says that Zara Phillips fell when her horse "stumbled over a 7' fence on cross country." :rolleyes: Since max height for a 4* is 4'7" with brush, that would mean she was doing, what, a 9*?

[sidepasser]

I clicked on the link and get a "website not found" notice.

[RunForIt]

I am not 100% certain, but I believe that website is the product of a parent who lost their child in an accident in competition. I believe the lawsuit referenced is theirs and is aimed at a variety of people who were involved with their child and the sport.

Again, I am not certain, but I had been told such a website existed before, and that it was done by this person etc. The website matches the description given to me by someone who knows the situation more closely.

Very sad all the way around. :(

thanks for the POSSIBLE insight,,,:( :eek:

[RAyers]

This is what I said on the other thread. regardless if this is real or not, if there is a suit against an organizer, a CD, or anybody associated with eventing it will kill the sport because nobody will be willing to take on the liability. No CD will take on the risk. No organizer will take on the risk. No officials will take on the risk.

This is a wake-up call. It is a call that we have got to push and support change to the safety components of this sport. If a lawsuit were to ever go forward, there is so little to justify the USEF/USEA positions toward safety, a sympathetic jury could easily rule against us. This is why we need a DATA driven effort, beyond what exists. We need to provide PROOF efforts have been done to understand the sport and to continually improve the safety of the sport.

Reed

[LexInVA]

I clicked on the link and get a "website not found" notice.

The link has a punctuation mark incorrectly added. Just click backspace in the address bar after pasting it and it should work fine.

[lstevenson]

This is a quote from that site presumably from a concerned parent to the USEA:

"Please be advised that you are on notice and if something happens to my daughter in the next events she is competing in, the USEA will be part of the lawsuit."



WTF? No one's forcing you to event. If you think the sport is too dangerous, then don't let your daughter do it!

I fear that it is just going to take one idiot trying to get money to put an end to our sport.

[brindille]

well, you have all convinced me that a lawsuit is not a good idea:no:

i had not read the other threads yet!

I am not 100% certain, but I believe that website is the product of a parent who lost their child in an accident in competition. I believe the lawsuit referenced is theirs and is aimed at a variety of people who were involved with their child and the sport. (

very, very tragic :(

[Kementari]

I'd be more inclined to take said site seriously if the author could write...or read...

This is my favorite:
A parent correctly let us know that USEF rule GR 141 requires that all trainers sign entry forms! NO EXCEPTIONS! Event organizers that have knowledge of trainers at events that have students competing, but haven't signed, or who have had parents sign but are still warming up the students...those Event Organizers are also at fault and deliberately increasing risk if someone is injured! Note: we have started notifying event managers of this rule putting them on formal notice. Thank you to the parent who gave us this simple task we COULD help with

I'd just like to point out, for the record, that GR 141 defines "Para Equestrian." :lol: :lol: :lol:


(And, as most of us doubtless know already, "warming up the students" does not make a person a "trainer" under GR 146, so hopefully all those event managers are getting a good laugh out of this person's crusade... :winkgrin:)

Honestly, this person may THINK she has a lawsuit, but she'd better have a LOT of money, the world's most gullible lawyer, and be prepared to be laughed out of court if that's any example of her research abilities...

[J Swan]

A lawsuit against "eventing" isn't about making positive changes to the sport.

It's about money. And people who can't stand the thought that sh** happens. Somebody has to pay.

If I had a dollar for every person who got the short end of the stick and wanted to make somebody else pay - "just on principle" - I'd be very wealthy. ;)

[Spoilsport]

Anyone can file a lawsuit. I could probably sue Mickey Mouse for intentional infliction of emotional distress. Winning the lawsuit is another thing :winkgrin: . . . but in the process people are hurt, and the system is hurt. And if the USEA has to pay a penny defending this, who really pays?

If it's started by a parent who lost a child, it's very tragic . . .and still wrong.

[HECS04]

What on earth is wrong with people!? Why is everyone so lawsuit happy???? :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[DLee]

People perish in sports of their choice every year. Is everyone going to sue? :confused::no:

[3horsemom]

regardless of whether the suit is valid, the threat is real. i have been around horses my entire life. i have hauled friends horses and they have hauled mine. never thought a thing about it until i was asked to haul a kid's horse to an out-of-state ht and was presented with a (i kid you not) a 33 page document to sign by the kid's stanford law school educated mom. i am not stupid and the poor kid was left behind. my point is that there are lots of people out there looking to blame someone else. these people made it real clear that if something happened to their child they would "own the place".
the flip side of the law suit threat is when one is faced with huge medical bills and the only way out is to find a deep pocket or file for bankruptcy.
reed, every post you write about the changes needed to protect not only the horse and rider, but the sport itself is spot on.

[deltawave]

If you live your life or do your job with the overarching fear of somebody possibly suing you, you are NOT going to be doing either very well. :no:

It's the fear stricken in our hearts by the very word that is so bizarre. That coupled with a very skewed picture (generated largely by daytime television) of what a legitimate lawsuit is all about.

People fling the term around like a club. We had someone threaten to SUE US because we took their personally-designated beach chair at a resort. :lol: It's mostly a lot of posturing, so let them posture.

[equinelaw]

The referance to a lawsuit is clearly shown in the left hand colum. Its a threat my a parent that IF something happens to her daughter she will sue.

If there were to be a lawsuit a lawyer would have to look no further for an education on the increased risks do to the new formats then this forum.

[Jazzy Lady]

so if something happens to her daughter when she's signed the liability waiver, and the daughter and the trainer have signed the liability waiver and they've gone out into a sport with inherent risks on their own decision, she's going to sue the sport? My goodness, that makes me laugh! What is this world coming to?

[oldbutnotdead]

Waivers, especially waivers signed by parents of minor children, do not aways stand up in court. A few years ago, a child was injured in a pay-for-trail-ride-situation, where a waiver and indemnification agreement benefitting the renting stable had been signed by a parent. The Utah Supreme Court determined that the waiver was void and against public policy, and allowed the daughter to sue the renting stable.

Trisha in Utah
who would make more money, and have more time off, if she were a personal injury lawyer than practicing the type of law she is practicing now

[tulkas]

Ah, yess. zzn.com - owned by the mother of a YR who, in violation of the rules, continued on course after 4 refusals and ended up killing herself. My heart goes out to a mother who lost two daughters to riding accidents over the period of a few years, but how is her child's unwillingness to follow the rules the fault of an entire sport?

tulkas

[BigRuss1996]

So if she had 4 refusals why was she not stopped on course? They don't normally just let you keep going once you are eliminated...
Where was the "system" that is in place for this ....these system failures look like they could get costly. Hopefully there aren't alot of people like this parent in the sport.

Though this won't be the first person to sue...As I am sure some of you other long timers remember...Kerry Milikin sued years ago whens he broke her leg at Rolex and was unable to ride "The Pirate" to qualify for the Olympics. Though I think that was more directed at the team.

Ah, yess. zzn.com - owned by the mother of a YR who, in violation of the rules, continued on course after 4 refusals and ended up killing herself. My heart goes out to a mother who lost two daughters to riding accidents over the period of a few years, but how is her child's unwillingness to follow the rules the fault of an entire sport?

tulkas

[3horsemom]

[QUOTE=BigRuss1996;3109659]So if she had 4 refusals why was she not stopped on course? They don't normally just let you keep going once you are eliminated...
Where was the "system" that is in place for this ....these system failures look like they could get costly. Hopefully there aren't alot of people like this parent in the sport.

how in the world does anyone control for such reckless behavior? i just had a woman (a small animal vet by profession) tell me that she went off-course at champagne run one year while doing the novice and jumped a prelim fence. she said that she heard the whistles blowing for her to stop but did not. afterall she "had driven all that way to compete".

[Bobthehorse]

so if something happens to her daughter when she's signed the liability waiver, and the daughter and the trainer have signed the liability waiver and they've gone out into a sport with inherent risks on their own decision, she's going to sue the sport? My goodness, that makes me laugh! What is this world coming to?

Seriously! I thought the reason you sign the waiver was to prove you understand the risks and wouldnt sue if something happened? How can you sue if the risks are both foreseeable and acknowledged?

This is like suing condom companies for getting pregnant while using their product, even though it says on the packaging that its not 100% effective....:rolleyes:

[Eventer13]

Though this won't be the first person to sue...As I am sure some of you other long timers remember...Kerry Milikin sued years ago whens he broke her leg at Rolex and was unable to ride "The Pirate" to qualify for the Olympics. Though I think that was more directed at the team.

I heard of this, but could some one let me know what the outcome was? Doesn't sound like she would have a case.

[oldbutnotdead]

Bobthehorse wrote: >>Seriously! I thought the reason you sign the waiver was to prove you understand the risks and wouldnt sue if something happened? How can you sue if the risks are both foreseeable and acknowledged?

This is like suing condom companies for getting pregnant while using their product, even though it says on the packaging that its not 100% effective....<<

In the Utah case I referenced, the court found it against public policy for the parent to waive the child's right to sue, and for the parent to reimbuse the trail riding company if the daughter prevailed in a suit against the company. Other waiver cases have found that the waiver was not clear, one cannot waive liability for gross negligence or intentional or willful conduct, or things like that. I don't put much faith in the ability of a waiver to (1) prevent someone from filing a lawsuit or (2) prevent someone from prevailing in a lawsuit.

[BarbB]

I heard of this, but could some one let me know what the outcome was? Doesn't sound like she would have a case.

The jump rider (can't remember her name) who sued USET over not making the Olympic team changed the way the selection of the SJ team has been done since then.
Which many say has accounted for the lack of medals.

I don't recall what happened in Kerry's case, but don't under estimate the power of a suit or even a threatened suit.

People who shrug this off have just never witnessed first hand the damage that can be done by even by a frivolous or fabricated or even withdrawn lawsuit, much less one that actually has some teeth in it.

[deltawave]

Anyone can sue anyone. A waiver doesn't take away your ability to sue, but a good one should remove your ability to win a frivolous suit. Contrary to popular belief, a huge majority of frivolous or specious suits are chucked out of court or never even make it that far.

[Adamantane]

Anyone can sue anyone. A waiver doesn't take away your ability to sue, but a good one should remove your ability to win a frivolous suit. Contrary to popular belief, a huge majority of frivolous or specious suits are chucked out of court or never even make it that far.

Some years ago my parents were sued personally by a disgruntled former employee of a small business corporation they owned after that person's complaints had been thrown out almost instantly by every city, county, state and federal agency to whom they originally had been made. (This was in employer-hostile Minnesota where the agencies are so biased in favor of employees that slightest pretext for slapping down an employer generally is pursued like Henry V going after the French at Agincourt. So you can assume there was less than nothing to the complaint.)

The thing dragged on for two years before finally it was thrown out.

Having seen from other outrageous and meritless but nevertheless successful lawsuits that people who had done nothing wrong had been ruined and bankrupted, my parents were overwrought the entire time. It cost them a packet to defend, and their attorney's take was that the plaintiff's attorney was merely trying to set some new legal precedents to make her name in the ambulance-chaser world.

From a distance one might think this was an example of the system working because at the end of the day the forces of darkness were vanquished, albeit after an outlay of many thousands of dollars.

But the reality of it was that my parents felt they were under imminent threat of ruin for over 700 days of their lives. If people had any confidence as they once did a couple generations ago, that the legal system dispensed justice instead of lottery tickets to plaintiffs and mindless bankruptcy to defendants, probably they would not react so. But I don't know anyone who upon being sued is confident that reason and justice will prevail and sleeps soundly awaiting a fair outcome.

Do you?

[deltawave]

If you're asking me specifically, I would have to say "no answer" as I've never been sued. :) But in general, yes, I tend to be the optimistic sort who has (probably unfounded) faith in the "system" in general. Hope to never be disabused of my (probably misguided) sensibilities. :p

[Adamantane]

If you're asking me specifically, I would have to say "no answer" as I've never been sued. :) But in general, yes, I tend to be the optimistic sort who has (probably unfounded) faith in the "system" in general. Hope to never be disabused of my (probably misguided) sensibilities. :p

Optimism is good. While cynicism is corrosively toxic, being realistic about things that are broken isn't the same thing as cynicism.

I try to be optimistic but alert to the possibility of and prepared for the worst. (Why else wear a helmet, except in winter to keep your head warm?!)

The question was a general one to the thread but since I borrowed your comments, I'm glad you answered, deltawave.

[pwynnnorman]

If you're asking me specifically, I would have to say "no answer" as I've never been sued. :) But in general, yes, I tend to be the optimistic sort who has (probably unfounded) faith in the "system" in general. Hope to never be disabused of my (probably misguided) sensibilities. :p

Oh, wake up and smell the manure, Delta. :( I once told someone to sue stallion owners if they back out on their word. Her mare doesn't catch and she refuses to pay for a vet to find out why, but sues me instead. After being publicly raked over the coals by the local magistrate for no reason whatsoever except that I was right (since I went ahead and paid a vet to discover the mare had cysts--and the contract was not LFG anyway) and the magistrate really wanted me to be in the wrong, the case was thrown out. A few years later, I'm the plaintiff, my case is as straightforward as they come: guy was supposed to build me a barn, took my money, and never did. TEN years later, after allowing a ton of delays and then hearing the case but refusing to rule on it, the judge JUST LAST WEEK ruled in my favor.

And I know I'll never collect because if my opponent isn't dead by now (he was a heart attack waiting to happen), he has long since hidden, gave to his kids or wife, and/or spent all his assets.

The justice system is crap.

BTW, the jumper rider who sued USET was Debbie Dolan.

[LexInVA]

A few years later, I'm the plaintiff, my case is as straightforward as they come: guy was supposed to build me a barn, took my money, and never did. TEN years later, after allowing a ton of delays and then hearing the case but refusing to rule on it, the judge JUST LAST WEEK ruled in my favor.

And I know I'll never collect because if my opponent isn't dead by now (he was a heart attack waiting to happen), he has long since hidden, gave to his kids or wife, and/or spent all his assets.

The justice system is crap.



Not to go off topic a tad but is this that guy in WV you were talking about? The landowner?

[snickerdoodle]

So if she had 4 refusals why was she not stopped on course? They don't normally just let you keep going once you are eliminated....

BigRuss - they did try to stop her. unfortunately she did not listen to the jump judge after she was told she could not continue.

[BigRuss1996]

WOW....... That is pretty sad... what a hard way to learn to follow rules.
Jump judges need to be given more authority. Also she should have been told she was eliminated and to leave the course...not that she shouldn't continue. We need to better train jump judges or have TD's available. Though I guess once someone is dead you can't really fine them. Maybe this type of thing needs to be brought up at rider meetings before xco so people undertsand when they are told not to continue it is not an option. I mean come on..... rules are rules...I don't get some people. Then again I guess as they say "you can't fix stupid" .


BigRuss - they did try to stop her. unfortunately she did not listen to the jump judge after she was told she could not continue.

[SonnysMom]

BigRuss- I don't think it is a matter of giving the jump judge more authority. There will always be somebody that chooses to ignore that authority. I tend to think that police officers have plenty of authority yet we hear of plenty of high speed chases (or low speed OJ chases) where somebody ignores a cops authority.
Plus how is the jump judge going to enforce it. Judge tells rider they are eliminated and to leave the course. Rider gallops off and continues anyway. Jump judge is on foot they can't exactly go catch a rider that is galloping away.
I used to do CT's many years ago and don't remember any outriders in the BN, N levels so having an outrider run down a rider that wan't to ignore the jump judge isn't practical.

I used to work at the barn where Kerry boarded The Pirate when she broke her leg. My understanding at the time was she broke her leg on her other horse and it was a relatively minor fracture. I believe that she only had it in an air cast. She would have pushed thru and tried to ride The Pirate but was told by a high ranking official of some kind that she didn't need to finish Rolex with Pie since she was a shoo-in for the Olympics on Pie anyway. She made the decision to not ride based on that statement and then was told a couple week later that she need to finish Rolex to qualify. I was told at the time that the requirement regarding having to complete Rolex were pretty clear. Since this was 20 years ago my memory may be a little fuzzy. I also was getting this information thru barn gossip so take it for what it is worth.

[annikak]

It IS crap, and it's sad...and I am a mom, and would be devistated too.

But this...this is what will kill the sport. I sure hope it gets thrown out before it hits the bench. Ugly.

It is interesting how parents respond. Some respond with amazing grace and insight- knowing what their child would want. Others just cannot find peace. I think (finding peace) would be very VERY hard- but again, we choose to let our kids ride.

I sure hope the mom that put the USEA on "notice" does not send her kid out on course. Or her entries get "lost" as that is a very frightening attitude:no:.

[fooler]

BigRuss- I don't think it is a matter of giving the jump judge more authority. There will always be somebody that chooses to ignore that authority. I tend to think that police officers have plenty of authority yet we hear of plenty of high speed chases (or low speed OJ chases) where somebody ignores a cops authority.
Plus how is the jump judge going to enforce it. Judge tells rider they are eliminated and to leave the course. Rider gallops off and continues anyway. Jump judge is on foot they can't exactly go catch a rider that is galloping away.
I used to do CT's many years ago and don't remember any outriders in the BN, N levels so having an outrider run down a rider that wan't to ignore the jump judge isn't practical.

I used to work at the barn where Kerry boarded The Pirate when she broke her leg. My understanding at the time was she broke her leg on her other horse and it was a relatively minor fracture. I believe that she only had it in an air cast. She would have pushed thru and tried to ride The Pirate but was told by a high ranking official of some kind that she didn't need to finish Rolex with Pie since she was a shoo-in for the Olympics on Pie anyway. She made the decision to not ride based on that statement and then was told a couple week later that she need to finish Rolex to qualify. I was told at the time that the requirement regarding having to complete Rolex were pretty clear. Since this was 20 years ago my memory may be a little fuzzy. I also was getting this information thru barn gossip so take it for what it is worth.

1988 - Requirement for a spot on the team was to compete at roughly 3/4's of the selection trials and FINISH (selectors' emphasis not mine) Rolex. I read the letter sent to all long-listed riders.
Kerry was stabled next to my old instructor's daughter, who was long-listed. Kerry had a weird fall with her 1st horse, HMS Dash, and suffered a non-displaced fracture in her leg. I watched her try to put her boot on, unsuccessfully, for about 30-45 minutes. She also explained to her Father that she could not use any pain killer at all. It was obvious she could not put on her boot (no or very few zippered boots back then) so she had to WD with The Pirate.
Many wanted her on the team as she had a pheonomal 1987 winning both Rolex & Chesterland. But the ruling was you must complete Rolex. That is why Bruce rode his last 2 horses with broken ribs ( suffered in a fall with 1 of 4 horses - the other tied-up). I have no knowledge that she was told she had a automatic spot on the team. If that were true - Mike Plumb should have had a spot as well as he had a good horse that year, but was injured at the Massive Log + Drop on a catch-ride.
Kerry sued for a spot on the team, based on her 1987 record & most of her selection trial rides (there were some questions as The Pirate had at least 1 stop at a water fence in 1988) It went to arbitration and was denied.
She returned to nursing and added some degrees. Then got Out & About and took him to the 1996 Games. There she won the Bronze medal in the individual 3-Day.
You have to admire her ability to bring 3 very different horses to the Advance level. However her lawsuit tempered that admiration for many, me included.

[JAGold]

Then again I guess as they say "you can't fix stupid" .
What a tasteless thing to say about a dead child :no: It's one thing to talk about changing the protocol for eliminated riders, but another to make snide comments like that.

[BigRuss1996]

I wasn't making the comment about this persons child. I was speaking of people who can't seem to follow instruction and rules in general. Someone else mentioned a friend of theirs who did the same thing at an event in an earlier post...guess I should have quoted that post to avoid this kind of confusion.....

It is tragic when anyone gets killed but even more tragic when it is a result of their own unwillingness to follow rules. So sad that this could so easily be prevented if people would just let go of their egos and do the right thing on the day (again...not directed at anyone in general)


Oh...and for anyone who might know... why can't the jump judges radio ahead to the next fence after they are ignored and have them step out and stop the rider again? Is this where the person with the flag is suppose to come in ??

What a tasteless thing to say about a dead child :no: It's one thing to talk about changing the protocol for eliminated riders, but another to make snide comments like that.

[BigRuss1996]

In re reading the lawsuit part of this where all this origionated it sounds more like this letter to USEA was a threat of a suit if anything should happen to their child....... where is the part where they say they ARE actually suing ? Or is this just something that we know for fact has happened? To me it reads as a threat IF something happens.... I am not seeing where it says there is an actual suit going on ..other then someone else saying that the site belongs to someone who has lost both their children in riding accidents.

[pwynnnorman]

Not to go off topic a tad but is this that guy in WV you were talking about? The landowner?

Sorry, still OT:

Yup, I filed a complaint with the state's judicial department and two weeks later, the ruling came down.

Whoopee, huh? And guess what "my" lawyer (who had told me to just drop it or find a new lawyer) says now? He's going to file a petition to get interest on the amount won (remember, it's contingency, so he'll make more by doing so)...and then he lectures me for having sent in the complaint because it may cause the judge to turn down his petition!

Unbelievable but TRUE!!!

[snickerdoodle]

BigRuss,

my understading of what happened was the rider had had two stops on course, she came to the water, had a stop at the first part, got through to the last jump and had a stop. that would have been her fourth. at this time the jump judged would have told her. she circled and tried to jump the last part of the water. her horse flipped over it.

Just to clarify, the rules had just changed from 5 total stops on course to 4 total stops. So the rider may not have realized this and tried to continue on. in any case, its tragic.

the jump judges are told what to do in each situation by the controller. i'm sure they were being told of the situation while the rider was continuing around the course. but some riders do not want to listen to the jump judges. the riders are concerned about their time and don't want to be held up. just my thoughts.



I wasn't making the comment about this persons child. I was speaking of people who can't seem to follow instruction and rules in general. Someone else mentioned a friend of theirs who did the same thing at an event in an earlier post...guess I should have quoted that post to avoid this kind of confusion.....

It is tragic when anyone gets killed but even more tragic when it is a result of their own unwillingness to follow rules. So sad that this could so easily be prevented if people would just let go of their egos and do the right thing on the day (again...not directed at anyone in general)


Oh...and for anyone who might know... why can't the jump judges radio ahead to the next fence after they are ignored and have them step out and stop the rider again? Is this where the person with the flag is suppose to come in ??

[BigRuss1996]

Thanks for clarifying for me Snickerdoodle,

I was thinking this person had issues at one fence and then went on to the next fence.

BigRuss,

my understading of what happened was the rider had had two stops on course, she came to the water, had a stop at the first part, got through to the last jump and had a stop. that would have been her fourth. at this time the jump judged would have told her. she circled and tried to jump the last part of the water. her horse flipped over it.

Just to clarify, the rules had just changed from 5 total stops on course to 4 total stops. So the rider may not have realized this and tried to continue on. in any case, its tragic.

the jump judges are told what to do in each situation by the controller. i'm sure they were being told of the situation while the rider was continuing around the course. but some riders do not want to listen to the jump judges. the riders are concerned about their time and don't want to be held up. just my thoughts.

[3horsemom]

It IS crap, and it's sad...and I am a mom, and would be devistated too.

But this...this is what will kill the sport. I sure hope it gets thrown out before it hits the bench. Ugly.

It is interesting how parents respond. Some respond with amazing grace and insight- knowing what their child would want. Others just cannot find peace. I think (finding peace) would be very VERY hard- but again, we choose to let our kids ride.

I sure hope the mom that put the USEA on "notice" does not send her kid out on course. Or her entries get "lost" as that is a very frightening attitude:no:.

my daughter is getting ready to do her first prelim this weekend. am i nervous? you bet. however, we have done all we can to insure the safety of both dd and her horse. the horse is experienced at the level. they have 5 trainings under their belt with no xc penalties and finishing no lower than 3rd. having said this, i now am placing my daughter's safety and well-being in the hands of the organizers, course designers and td's.
annikak, you are right...we made the choice to allow our child to get on a horse and we are ultimately responsible. as parents, it is incumbant upon us to keep abreast of happenings in the sport nad make informed decisions.

on another note, if someone was repeatedly riding recklessly, could they be banned from competing?

[annikak]

3horsemom-
I have ridden prelim, and I can tell you that when my adult child heads out prelim, I am scared for her. It's hard to watch- and for some reason, harder to have her head out then me.:confused:

You do sound as if you have done all you can do, and have a terrific attitude. Better then mine, I think! Sounds as if you have a terrific horse- keep us posted and good luck!!!

[3horsemom]

thank you annikak. i may start drinking earlier in the mornings:)

i

[GotSpots]

my daughter is getting ready to do her first prelim this weekend. am i nervous? you bet. however, we have done all we can to insure the safety of both dd and her horse. the horse is experienced at the level. they have 5 trainings under their belt with no xc penalties and finishing no lower than 3rd. having said this, i now am placing my daughter's safety and well-being in the hands of the organizers, course designers and td's. This actually bothers me abit. Your kid has done five trainings. That's all of one more than the minimum qualifications. I don't mean to be harsh, and I of course know ZERO about her capabilities - she could be the next coming of Reiner Klimke for all I know - but on its face, that's pretty minimal preparation for a prelim move up. Maybe she's done tons of trainings and has loads more experience than that, but only ever having done 5 trainings seems pretty slim to me for a move up to prelim (and I count final placing pretty low in assessing the qualification - though the clean XC is helpful). But what mostly stands out for me is the statement that you are placing her safety in the hands of the organizers, course designers, and td's. I don't think that's quite right - you need to place her safety in her hands, armed with the advice and coaching of her trainer/coach/vet/farrier. The right question is whether she has the tools she needs to be safe and effective at the new level. If she doesn't, there isn't much the organizer and course designer can do about it.

[3horsemom]

This actually bothers me abit. Your kid has done five trainings. That's all of one more than the minimum qualifications. I don't mean to be harsh, and I of course know ZERO about her capabilities - she could be the next coming of Reiner Klimke for all I know - but on its face, that's pretty minimal preparation for a prelim move up. Maybe she's done tons of trainings and has loads more experience than that, but only ever having done 5 trainings seems pretty slim to me for a move up to prelim (and I count final placing pretty low in assessing the qualification - though the clean XC is helpful). But what mostly stands out for me is the statement that you are placing her safety in the hands of the organizers, course designers, and td's. I don't think that's quite right - you need to place her safety in her hands, armed with the advice and coaching of her trainer/coach/vet/farrier. The right question is whether she has the tools she needs to be safe and effective at the new level. If she doesn't, there isn't much the organizer and course designer can do about it.

thank you for your concern. actually she has 17 training rounds on 3 different horses(2 of them did not belong to us, 1 was green) with a total of 80 xc penalties (i had to go look it up). she has had the same trainer since she started taking lessons at age 6. she is now 16. her mare has 8 double clear prelims on her record. we have a great farrier, our vet is terrific. i have done all i know to do. she has worked hard and perserved and wants to move up. i have run out of valid reasons to say no other than because i said so.
we have done all we can to make her as safe as possible in a very risky sport, so i stand by my original statement. it goes back to the post about trusting the organizers, cds et al to provide a safe enviroment. and the riders and parents to be responsible and realistic about their or their child's abilities.
if i have missed something or have not done something to make this child ready as i can for the move to prelim, plaese speak up.

[GotSpots]

it goes back to the post about trusting the organizers, cds et al to provide a safe enviroment. and the riders and parents to be responsible and realistic about their or their child's abilities.
With this later part added, I agree. I hate to be the broken record, but rider responsibilty is something I feel really strongly about - as well as adding in realistic. And you're right - with more background (I did note I didn't have all the facts), it sounds like she's done her homework. Good luck - tell her to have a blast!

[3horsemom]

thank you.
i am just hoping i do not have a heart attack. if i never post again after saturday, y'all will know what happened!

[3horsemom]

so...way back when i asked can someone be banned from competing for riding recklessly?

[LexInVA]

so...way back when i asked can someone be banned from competing for riding recklessly?

I see no reason why not. Janet would know the specific rules.

[The Prince]

How on earth do you sue a sport??:confused:I wonder...I mean, there have been animal welfare suits against rodeo (for example) but you don't see adds saying "If you or your roping horse has been hurt while rodeoing, call 1-800-screw-the-PRCA"

I do think it is an interesting topic to debate as someone stated above. (the overall future/welfare of the sport)

[BigRuss1996]

This is very true....




I wonder...I mean, there have been animal welfare suits against rodeo (for example) but you don't see adds saying "If you or your roping horse has been hurt while rodeoing, call 1-800-screw-the-PRCA"

I do think it is an interesting topic to debate as someone stated above. (the overall future/welfare of the sport)