FYI, if anyone's interested: Pics of Red Hills CIC***W Course

[pwynnnorman]

Most of the jumps are here: http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2268230320066718914cQQrKL?vhost=good-times. I jsut uploaded them to show a friend.

[FlightCheck]

Thanks, Wyn.

[c_expresso]

It looks like it would hurt to land on all those pointy decorative animal stuff.

[Debbie]

Thanks. Some of those obstacles are truly works of art.

[snoopy]

Works of art....should our horses be presented with works of art or clear, honest fair questions that do not distract from the job at hand.
I am speaking in general terms here.

[Debbie]

The latter....

[LexInVA]

Reminds me of a nicely designed mini-golf course.

[snoopy]

Lex


Exactly what it reminds me of!!!!!

[Debbie]

It reminds me of the visual appeal of big time grand prix show jumping courses; except instead of using the decor as standards, the horses actually jump the art.

Snoop, you hit on this in another thread on another aspect, but maybe it's to appeal to an American need to be entertained/visually stimulated -- Disney-esque.

[snoopy]

yes I was thinking how to tie the two together. It would seem that americans really like the razz-a-ma-tazz (sp). I am sure this has to do with pictures, video, entertainment, sponsorship etc.

[LexInVA]

Let's assume these big name courses are being designed the way they are because (according to the USEF) people don't like to walk much and they want some freakish theme park feeling to it. Where do we go from there? Can we find a middle ground? Will Darth Phillips punish us all for our lack of faith? Would his daughter do well on the courses he has recently designed here? Will David O'Connor sound off like he's got a pair or will he roll over for a belly rub and a treat from the USET board? Does Karen O'Connor have anything to say? If you buy one...are you really getting another free? Tune in tomorrow. Same Bat-Time. Same Bat-Channel.

[snoopy]

Let's assume these big name courses are being designed the way they are because (according to the USEF) people don't like to walk much and they want some freakish theme park feeling to it. Where do we go from there? Can we find a middle ground? Will Darth Phillips punish us all for our lack of faith? Would his daughter do well on the courses he has recently designed here? Will David O'Connor sound off like he's got a pair or will he roll over for a belly rub and a treat from the USET board? Does Karen O'Connor have anything to say? If you buy one...are you really getting another free? Tune in tomorrow. Same Bat-Time. Same Bat-Channel.


You are on some seriously good form tonight:D:D

[Shrapnel]

OMG!!!! ARE YOU FLIPPING SERIOUS!?!?!?!?

What a HORRIBLE course!!!! Yes, the jumps look "pretty", but last time I checked a CROSS COUNTRY COURSE is NOT supposed to be a freakin art show!!!:mad:

Wow...what has eventing come to?????? :no:

[Balista]

A need for a new division? ... "decorative presentation, best use of flora and fawna, and creative chainsaw". Ribbons through 10 places and a cash prize with the opportunity to work w/ Martha Stewart ......

Did my horse really jump that stuff or have the " chainsaw sculptures " been added recently? I thought ya'll were joking about the cheese and rat....could it be a self - portrait of CMP?

[polarbear]

I must say the pics show ALOT of BIG skinny jumps, particularly mushrooms (!)..I don't have an opinion on upper level course design because I know NOTHING about it and it most certainly will not ever affect me. I will admit the pics help me understand some of the POV's I've seen expressed here..

AND many of the decorations are pretty inoffensive and actually kinda cute, aside from the cheese wedge thing that's scary..

[Debbie]

I think decorations are one thing, but look at the dolphin jump and that's when decoration moves to art and moves away from functional. I believe someone posted that part of the carving was under water and a hazard - hard to tell from the photo.

LexinVA - :lol::lol: Can you write a daily update?

[Meredith Clark]

The ditch to armidillo was crazy pants!!!!

nothing more to say...

[Jazzy Lady]

Okay... I gotta say it... those cordwood tables are beautiful. Wow.

The houses with the porch covers sticking out further... not so nice.

[Balista]

I agree....

[Meredith Clark]

I stand corrected.... I just got to the mouse pop'ing his head out of the cheese...

[tx3dayeventer]

Great pics! I loathe those mushrooms!!!! They are evil!! ( I know from personal experience... My mare thought they were going to eat her, BUT will jump ANYTHING else put in front of her. I had to convince her (one swat of the crop that she hates) and over we went. But I think the pillows and picnic baskets are cute. I jumped the Giants table with the picnic basket, ants, etc and it made a cute picture. Now the upside down turtle & dolphin are strange but I love the little woodcarvings! Should they be on the xc course? Maybe not. But they are REALLY cute!! The cheese wedge is freaky. If I was a horse, I would have run out there too.

Anyways, I have not seen courses lately, but I guess they have gotten out of hand. I rode Red Hills in 2001, 2002 & 2003 and LOVED every time I went. It really was the premier event (I think) and very natural with some cute decorations and the evil mushrooms. My dads favorite was a HUGE table with a "putting green" on top complete with astroturf and golf decorations.

ETA: That ditch & wall rides really well! It used to be the ditch & wall to a log or rolltop *i think* I dont really remember.

[snoopy]

you have to admit that it was something like alice in wonderland, was it not?

I need to conatct the course builder...I need my closets re-modeled.

[Badger]

Thanks for posting these. I'm struck by what a contrast there is between this course and the Puhinui*** that Mark Todd just won. In the Puhinui pictures, it seemed like the vast majority of the jumps were some variation on big round logs. And even some of the jumps there that weren't big logs, like the black pipe oxers, still LOOKED a lot like dark logs.

The Red Hills course is certainly more beautiful and creative, but it's a LOT more for a horse to process. With an armadillo or a cheese wedge, the horse has to figure out what the heck it's looking at before he can figure out how to jump it. With the jumps that are a variation on a pile of logs, the horse has a lot less to process in the short approach time. They've figured out long ago that solid logs aren't go to leap around and get 'em...but they have more to process from giant mice staring them down.

[snoopy]

but they have more to process from giant mice staring them down.


Well who would have thought instead of a wheel you needed your cat to walk the course.

[Hony]

I like this one :D

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2427107830066718914LpkNSz

[Shrapnel]

Darth Phillips


HAHAHAHA I LOVE IT!!!!!:lol:

[SR Rider]

Ah remember the whale on the training course at Hearthstone!

Hunters Run has beautifully carved jumps that actually still look like logs, etc.

[SR Rider]

Ah, just remembering the whale at Hearthstone....

The fence maker at Hunters Run who actually carves into the logs, etc. still keeps
the integrity of cross country but with beautiful interest.

[wanderlust]

The fins on the dolphin and the mouse with the cheese in the skinny... wouldn't want to see what happened if one of the horses was late with a knee. The first thing I thought was "well, thats a big set of stitches waiting to happen."

[Bensmom]

I'm not even going to attempt to ruin your fun, guys. :no: I just hope the people that worked so hard to put this course together don't see people being nasty about it. These folks have done as they were asked to do, which was to make the course pretty and as many jumps as cool as they could do. The carvings are from the course builder, and I've seen them in person and I like them. The armadillo for instance, is really cool.

I will say thanks to Tx3dayeventer for the compliment on the picnic table with the ants -- that was mine several years ago! :D I also made the giant pillows the first couple of years. My stepdad died the week before the show this year, so I didn't get to re-make them as I ran out of time, but the lady that did them did a great job!

My dads favorite was a HUGE table with a "putting green" on top complete with astroturf and golf decorations.You have got to be kidding?!! I HATED that jump and campaigned unmercifully to get rid of it -- you should have seen us trying to pull the golf decorations together for it. Ugh.

Glad to know someone appreciated it though!! :D

Libby

[snoopy]

I think for the most part people are impressed with the skill and the finished product, just questioning whether all this art is lost on a xc course.

[Kenike]

I, personally, like this one. Can someone tell me how you teach a horse to jump THIS skinny?

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2892240490066718914YpxXXC

:lol: :winkgrin:

[Bensmom]

:lol: I have to say that a hard rub on *that* would produce some nasty results! :lol:

[JenEM]

Wow :eek::eek::eek:

As a recovering h/jer starting to branch out into other areas, I've always thought of XC fences as something like the one Hony posted the link to, big logs and some ditches. Skinny fences in eq were always treated as something of a "challenge" with perhaps one or two on course, so it seems very odd to my mind to see so many of them out on an XC course--how normal is that at this level?

While those cheese wedges are certainly an impressive bit of chainsawing, it seems like the "artsy" is taking precendence over the inviting. Wouldn't little mice as "wings" gnawing on a larger wedge be just as artistic? But perhaps this is why I'm not a course designer.

[CookiePony]

Haven't read the thread, but by way of comparison, John William's Pine Top Advanced HT course:

http://flickr.com/photos/11305497@N06/sets/72157604038467077/

[c_expresso]

Haven't read the thread, but by way of comparison, John William's Pine Top Advanced HT course:

http://flickr.com/photos/11305497@N06/sets/72157604038467077/

That actually looked FUN!!

[pegasusmom]

The artsy stuff doesn't bother me. The Fork has had Canadian Geese and painted Easter eggs on their course for some time now. We have mushrooms on our courses - they ride very well. The '96 Olympics had a fence that was chainsawed into a rattlesnake.

What I would be concerned about are the number of table fences shown - with no apparent softening of the faces at all.

[bosox]

These folks have done as they were asked to do

I wasn't going to post but the "folks" who decorated are not the issue.

Bensmom--I feel for you b/c you are tied to the event and somehow think that this backlash is directed at you...when it really isn't. :)

When I looked at the pix....not one person had commented. The post had just happened so I wasn't bias to the things I saw. I was amazed at the cheese jump. 1st it is skinny. Next it looks like it is off of an A/B set. Then it has a HUGE mouse coming out of the top of it.

We were getting ready for dinner when I was looking at the pix and my kids were there. One is 11 and the other is 13. One rides XC and the other doesn't. The 11 year old....said "Oh, that's a cool jump." and the 13 year old said to her w/o skipping a beat, "How do you train your horse to jump that?"

The 13 year old is right. XC is SUPPOSE to be what you find when you are out w/your horse....galloping over the country side. So unless we landed in Brobdingnag and we are Gulliver---why the heck for the BIG, GIANT mouse? If the CD wanted such a jump then why triple the threat of it being a skinny, in a combo which had element A as a skinny as well?

We talked about it at dinner...and we both agreed that the alligator was the best of the art for a REAL XC course. A little art for the eye...but more natural for the horse b/c it wasn't too much.

btw---the Dolphin jump. I understand that there were problems with it in years past. If so--why is it still on course?

[mythical84]

As a N/T rider with A dreams (although I'm not so sure anymore) ... the only things that really scared me was the ditch/armadillo combo, the dolphin and mushrooms. The first for pure *holy s*@&" factor, and the latter two because of the questionable groundlines.

Does anyone have a map of the course?? It'd be interesting to see where the complexes were in relation to gallop breaks, etc.

[c_expresso]

As a N/T rider with A dreams (although I'm not so sure anymore) ... the only things that really scared me was the ditch/armadillo combo, the dolphin and mushrooms. The first for pure *holy s*@&" factor, and the latter two because of the questionable groundlines.

Does anyone have a map of the course?? It'd be interesting to see where the complexes were in relation to gallop breaks, etc.

http://www.rhht.org/CourseMaps.htm

[Bensmom]

Bensmom--I feel for you b/c you are tied to the event and somehow think that this backlash is directed at you...when it really isn't. :)

Actually, I really don't think the backlash is directed at me. What bothers me is the snowball effect of all the posts that say "OMG, what a horrible, terrible, awful course!" One post like that appears, and then another, and that is what makes me speak up, not because I feel threatened.

I do feel badly for the people that decorated all these jumps, mostly because I know them, they took over from me, my mom and my brother, and I think have done a great job, and because I know them well enough to know that the criticism, especially some of the nasty, side comments would really, really sting.

I didn't have anything to do with the course this year -- I didn't go out and paint jumps, I didn't decorate, shoot, I didn't even see it until Friday before the event.

I just have tried to speak up for another view before the snowball turns into pages and pages of "OMG, how awful." I know there are other RHHT folk reading, but they have more sense than I do, and have managed to keep quiet. I'm just so identified with the event here that I feel like keeping quiet looks as if I might agree with what is being said.

Really, I've only taken personally the couple of things that were directed at me :D I expected that what I had to say would probably be dismissed because I am identified with the event and people would think I was just defensive, but I've said it anyway. ;)

At least I have a sense of humour still :lol:

Libby (who probably should go back to her corner and be quiet for a while!)

[Spoilsport]

Bensmom - I am on the sidelines with no connections to anyone involved. From my perspective, there's a mob mentality here, with people feeding off each other and not stopping to think for themselves. Are things perfect in eventing? No!! Is this mob attack justified? No!

I've been very reluctant to post, but I think it's important to let you know there are people privately thinking and saying things very different from what you read here. A sense of humor always helps :winkgrin:

[Muck r us]

The decoration of the jumps doesn't bother me, it looks like people worked very hard and it was well done. I leave that issue to others to pick over.

What I see:

1) Fence 21 looks to be two corners with a bounce in between. It's always hard to judge from one photo, sometimes distances are compressed and I could be wrong. However, if it is as it looks in the photo, that fence would really bother me. If the rider's line into A angles to the left even a little; there is going to be a crash at B. There's no way to run out and you aren't going to get over the wide part of the corner. I also hate the sharp edged shingles along the top of the corner, just waiting to rip off some skin. I'd rather see a rounded top edge on corners. By contrast the tables a have nicely rounded edges. I suppose this fence has been there for years and has never caused a problem.

2) Wow, there are a lot of skinnies.

Other than that, I don't really see anything that would have sent me to the TD -- if I were an *** rider, which I'm not, not even remotely close. What's there in the photos looks fair for a ***. Now, what we can't see is the track between fences and how close they are to one another. How they look and how they ride are two totally different things.

[flyingchange]

I found a real XC jump amongst all that weirdness! who knew that this type of jump would actually be cause for horse and rider to take a deep sigh of relief!

http://thumb14.webshots.net/t/63/663/1/7/83/2427107830066718914LpkNSz_th.jpg


I didn't understand the fuss about the cheese wedge with the mouse's head emerging til I saw it :eek: ! Holy $hit!

what does MP have against logs?

[jumpjesterjump]

The jumps are all beautifuly constructed, but like some of the others said; the dolphin looks like it could really hurt and the cheese wedge is just weird *scratching head* how would that look to you if you were a horse? I don't think my horse would have even gone near it and he was a pretty steady eddy that would jump just about anything in front of him as long as you were saying, Go! Everything else on the course looked fairly forgiving (from the pics) rounded edges on most of them, some were a little busy but not over the top.

Thanks for putting the Event on Bensmom!! It takes a lot of people, time and effort to run an event thank the course builders, they did a wonderful job building jumps that will last for many years. :)

[Hannahsmom]

Bensmom, no one disagrees that the builder wasn't artistic and clever and the decorations beautiful. There is a place for everything, everyone has their own taste, I prefer a more natural look and something more traditional to foxhunting. I would rather go to the Grand Canyon than to Disney, but that's just me. I have no comment on the jumpability, I just prefer the more 'natural' look. I do like the alligator. Seems so Florida.

[LexInVA]

In looking at the pictures again...I'm asking myself a serious question....where the Hell is the animatronic stuff? Ya know what I mean? Throw in some spare dinosaurs from Jurassic Park: River Adventure, a singing pirate or two from Pirates Of The Caribbean, maybe the left overs from Kongfrontation that are rotting in the backlot warehouses at Universal Orlando, some bikini-clad models and you've definitely got a recipe for something special. :p

[flyingchange]

turn the mouse head into a jack in the box mouse head. have it pop up right at the last stride!!!!

and a ku-ku bird clock in the face of one of the tables, with a ku-ku bird that pops out just when the horse is at the last stride or two, singing KU-KU KU-KU!!!

[Debbie]

I hope there is always a place for some creativity in jump design/decoration. To me a collection of logs would look dull and I applaud the decorators at Red Hills for providing a visual feast. It was not their decision/mission/directive to determine the jumpability of the course and I'm not castigating them in any way and haven't really read anything here that does. (Other than folks really don't appear to be charmed by the mouse head. :)) I think decoration is separate from course design. Perhaps there should be data collection as has been suggested here to determine when decoration becomes distracting to the horse and muddles the question, but again that's not the responsibility of the volunteers.

Spoilsport, I for one, would honestly love to hear your views. Now is not the time for any one to sit quietly on the sidelines and hold their tongue. I've been reading a LOT of really thoughtful discussion on here... and some stuff that is just inflammatory, but I don't think the majority want to stifle discussion in any way. I hear people who really love this sport and want to make it the best it can be coming through most strongly.

[Shrapnel]

Good Grief!!!!!!!!!!!

We KNOW that the people who decorated the fences only did what they were told! They're certainly not the problem.

The problem is -- a cross country course is NOT supposed to be a freakin art show!!! No wonder Bruce and Stephen didn't run their horses XC. I wouldn't have either. Geeez!!!!

[subk]

I finally took a look at the pictures and I have to say after the build up here I didn't think they were that big of a deal. I really don't think the horses at this level care. At all. Not even the mouse. Remember they don't see it as a "mouse," just as some irregular hunk of wood sitting on top of a light colored wedge that looks just like a hundred other wedge shapes they've jumped before.

The only thing that would have given me pause was the flag. Had xc day been windy the sound effects of it might have been an issue.

I really think this "decoration issue" is a red heron and not where the focus needs to be.

[eqsiu]

I think the alligator and the armadillos were neat variations of a plain ol' log. They can come live in IL if no one wants them in FL! :D There seemed to be lots of combinations.

[goobs]

I still am waiting for someone to design a jump that would be the head of Godzilla with his mouth gaping - the horse would have to jump into his gaping mouth, complete with sharp teeth over a skinny. We could have Godzilla's hands on either side - one holding a fork the other a knife. On top of the skinny would be that swinging thing that hangs at the back of one's throat (I forget the name) making it a narrow squeeze through and if you hit it it will swing violently back and forth. Incorporating a sound effect such as Godzilla roaring as the horse leaps into his maws would be cool too - and of course it would be placed such that you land in water. You get your horse through that then my hat is off to you! We can have a baby godzilla one for the BN folks too - they should have fun jumps too! Live Alligators in the water would be super awesome as well!

[LexInVA]

I still am waiting for someone to design a jump that would be the head of Godzilla with his mouth gaping - the horse would have to jump into his gaping mouth, complete with sharp teeth over a skinny. We could have Godzilla's hands on either side - one holding a fork the other a knife. On top of the skinny would be that swinging thing that hangs at the back of one's throat (I forget the name) making it a narrow squeeze through and if you hit it it will swing violently back and forth. Incorporating a sound effect such as Godzilla roaring as the horse leaps into his maws would be cool too - and of course it would be placed such that you land in water. You get your horse through that then my hat is off to you! We can have a baby godzilla one for the BN folks too - they should have fun jumps too! Live Alligators in the water would be super awesome as well!

I'd love to see that! We could have it spit out random gouts of incinerating flame!

[SmallHerd]

Okay, no mob mentality, just a serious question from a re-riding adult just starting to event.

While the course really is beautiful and a work of art (it looks like an art park), aren't XC jumps supposed to mimic natural obstacles? I know that the envelope has been pushed a bit in the past (basket at Rolex, houses, etc.), but this seems to have gone above and beyond.

[VCT]

:rolleyes:

[Grasshopper]

While I myself like the natural look from the time when I fell in love with eventing, from the perspective of someone who jump judged at several different places on that course throughout the day, and walked the whole thing with the Buck D. course walk on Friday, it was not the decorations that appeared to cause the problems. Hopefully there will be input from people who actually rode the course, but in the meantime the below might be useful to consider.

The lines for the "Mousetrap and Wedge" and the skinny mushrooms, especially, were very, very tough on the 3* courses (and A, I think, though there the former were numbered separately so riders could, and did, circle in between to give their horses a good look at the second element). For the mouse combo, horses were coming down a long hill and then turning hard right to the rampy open oxer, landing downhill where they didn't seem to see the cheese/wedge jump due to the angle of approach and the tree, and then had to do a short bending line to the wedge of cheese, which had a really significant spread and was, as you can probably tell, skinny. Plenty of heart-stopping moments there.

The 2*/I combo was less tricky--the riders who appeared to have trouble there, where there was a straight approach from the first to the second element, had trouble riding straight and forward. There were a few people who came in really collected and made it out over the wedge, but the best rides got their horses balanced at the bottom of the hill, rode forward through the turn, over the first and then forward and straight over the wedge. Phillip Dutton, of course, made it look easy, but while some horses did have run-outs there, many others got through smoothly also (including a number of non-BNRs and Rhodey with his young rider!!).

I did not see how the mushrooms rode, but many riders were worried about the line for those during the course walk. While I think those are pretty safe fences, they are skinny and that combined with the line required would, I imagine, make for an awkward ride.

I know many riders prefer natural looking jumps, but I hope that we won't get distracted from whatever the "real" safety issues are. (The ears on the mice, by the way, detached easily in case horses did knock them.) While I can only speculate, I will indulge for a moment and guess that Bruce was not muttering under his breath about the mice decorations when he came down to watch that combination for a bit, but about the way it rode, at least based on the article from him that was posted the other day.

[Jealoushe]

turn the mouse head into a jack in the box mouse head. have it pop up right at the last stride!!!!

and a ku-ku bird clock in the face of one of the tables, with a ku-ku bird that pops out just when the horse is at the last stride or two, singing KU-KU KU-KU!!!



I am laughing so hard!!!

I was actually shocked looking at that course. What EVER happened to the definition of cross-country

"The next phase, cross-country, requires both horse and rider to be in excellent physical shape and to be brave and trusting of each other. This phase consists of approximately 12-20 fences (lower levels), 30-40 at the higher levels, placed on a long outdoor circuit. These fences consist of very solidly built natural objects (telephone poles, stone walls, etc.) as well as various obstacles such as ponds and streams, ditches, drops and banks, and combinations including several jumping efforts based on objects that would commonly occur in the countryside"

From FEI website: "Phase D: Cross-Country. This is the most difficult part of the test consisting in a course, usually twice the distance of the steeplechase, comprising 30 to 40 Jumping efforts on natural solid obstacles, such as stone walls, woodpiles, water, ditches, etc. The aim is to jump all the fences within the limits of the time allowed"

Sorry but if you think that course is OK, than you are not enjoying what was originally considered cross-country. I think its TACKY....and must have been EXPENSIVE.

I find it interesting that so many people liked fence 12, which is also the one I liked!

[pwynnnorman]

Smallherd, there was an "egg" thing at Badminton or Burghley that I thought epitomized what you just wrote: really unnatural, but the horses jumped it well enough, IIRC.

But as I said before, this "issue" seems like a quick, simple fix: guidelines for course decorations. Or maybe just one: Don't obscure the top or edges, period. I, too, don't think that, visually, the mouse in the cheese had any impact on the horses. It was the sloping face of the preceding jump, combined with a downhill bending line. It was just a difficult challenge, but some DID, after all, do just fine over it. [Sorry, Grasshopper, I repeat what you wrote. You must have been in my pics somewhere, huh?]

Just jokingly, though:

as the horse leaps into his maws

You got that wrong. You wanna bring in the crowds? Have the horse jumping OUT of it. Imagine the pictures in the press?

[Muck r us]

Say what you will style-wise, but honestly in terms of safety and ridability it doesn't look any different from many other courses of that level. It looks like a nice course. A bit flat, but it is in Florida.

[flshgordon]

Personally I thought the mouse-cheese jump looked kind of like that wack-a-mole game my nephew loves at Chuck E Cheese!

As a non-eventer, but someone who likes to watch and likes to take my own horse out to school CC, I just have to wonder why someone would design a course that looks like this? When your overbearing theme is to add enough "stuff" to purposely try to scare the crap out of a horse galloping at speed, then maybe you should stop and re-think your job. This is a beautiful course with lots of beautiful and well done jumps, but it's not a cross country course to me. It's not something I would want to subject my horse to at any level. I want my horses to enjoy jumping, not be scared into it. I see absolutely no reason for some of this stuff.

[pwynnnorman]

As a non-eventer, but someone who likes to watch and likes to take my own horse out to school CC, I just have to wonder why someone would design a course that looks like this?

I can't speak for Red Hills, but I've heard themes are popular with sponsors. That is, of course, at the heart of some issues, isn't it? Traditional values vs. modern needs (e.g. Wofford and spandex).

[Jazzy Lady]

There needs to be a balance. I don't mind the carved jumps when they are inviting and rounded. I've already said that the log pile jumps are gorgeous. Those are works of art that looked to ride beautifully.

Another fence that I love on CMP's ocala course is the painted and stuccoed huts. They are so adorable and seem to ride well.

[ShowMeTheGlory]

:eek:

[knz66]

Now compare those jumps to the Galway Downs CIC*** running tomorrow... http://www.galwaydowns.com/threestarcourse.htm# If you follow the map with your curser, click at each jump and a pic will appear.

Galway looks more like a traditional CC course! Not some disneyland theme park.

While I have to give kudo's for the work that they put into those jumps, I just dont think they belong on a cross country course.

[Mtn trails]

Haven't read the thread, but by way of comparison, John William's Pine Top Advanced HT course:

http://flickr.com/photos/11305497@N06/sets/72157604038467077/

What a fun inviting course! That's what xc should be about, not this Las Vegas theme park that seems so popular. Love the cows.

[ravenclaw]

About 10 years ago, I went to Kentucky and watched Rolex. I walked the whole course and even though the jumps were very big and a few of them gave me the shivers, overall I thought the course looked do-able (with the right horse, of course).

When I looked at the pictures of the Red Hills course, I kept thinking "There's no way." This time, there are only a few fences that don't make me nervous. Why do there need to be so many skinnies? A few skinnies are good to test your steering, your horse's straightness, etc. But horses and riders shouldn't have to keep answering the same question.

As for the decorations, the fences should be attractive but it has been taken over the top. The fence that had the pillows on it would have looked very nice without the pillows and the dog statues on the ground next to it. I agree with whoever said that the decorations and artsy fences have become a "contest" and the next course always has to one-up the previous one.

I haven't evented at all for the past few years and I'm sorry to say that all this makes me glad I'm not competing right now. :(

[ChocklateChipConfetti]

I was a jump judge at the mushrooms for the CIC***. What made it ride so bad was the angel for the black flag option. They were skinny and wide. Those who slowed down enough to let their horse see where it was going did great with the b part of the combination. Those who didnt they couldnt get a good angel on the jump and the horse would run out.

[tx3dayeventer]

I'm not even going to attempt to ruin your fun, guys. :no: I just hope the people that worked so hard to put this course together don't see people being nasty about it. These folks have done as they were asked to do, which was to make the course pretty and as many jumps as cool as they could do. The carvings are from the course builder, and I've seen them in person and I like them. The armadillo for instance, is really cool.

I will say thanks to Tx3dayeventer for the compliment on the picnic table with the ants -- that was mine several years ago! :D I also made the giant pillows the first couple of years. My stepdad died the week before the show this year, so I didn't get to re-make them as I ran out of time, but the lady that did them did a great job!

You have got to be kidding?!! I HATED that jump and campaigned unmercifully to get rid of it -- you should have seen us trying to pull the golf decorations together for it. Ugh.

Glad to know someone appreciated it though!! :D

Libby

I love your decorations last time I was there (2003)! Red Hills was a mandatory date on our calendar. My dad came out from Texas just to go to Red Hills. Red Hills and Maui Jim in Chicago were the only two he "volunteered" to go to.

My dad is HUGE golfer (or at least thinks he is) :lol: the only jump that he would have loved more is if it had a ski or two, some poles, and fake snow :D :D That was one of the jumps I took him to on the Advanced course, that one and the Political Coffin, and the Giants table. He did not like to walk the whole course and see what I was jumping. He preferred to not be totally involved b/c he doesnt really like animals, although he was a FANTASTIC handwalker :yes: and he "groomed" (i.e. carried stuff) when he had too

[JAM]

Like subk, I also don't have a problem with the decorations and the like at that level (though I thought the point of XC was to ride over "natural" obstacles that you would find hunting or on the trail). But, my God, how many times do you need to ask the skinny question?

[flyingchange]

I still am waiting for someone to design a jump that would be the head of Godzilla with his mouth gaping - the horse would have to jump into his gaping mouth, complete with sharp teeth over a skinny. We could have Godzilla's hands on either side - one holding a fork the other a knife. On top of the skinny would be that swinging thing that hangs at the back of one's throat (I forget the name) making it a narrow squeeze through and if you hit it it will swing violently back and forth. Incorporating a sound effect such as Godzilla roaring as the horse leaps into his maws would be cool too - and of course it would be placed such that you land in water. You get your horse through that then my hat is off to you! We can have a baby godzilla one for the BN folks too - they should have fun jumps too! Live Alligators in the water would be super awesome as well!

YEAH!!!

The next jump could be King Kong pounding the ground with his fist and a mushroom skinny right behind the fist! You have to time your approach and jump so that you miss his fist or else you get flattened!

[Jealoushe]

There definitly doesnt need to be the same question asked over and over. Once, maybe twice I think is suffice to show the horse can do it. These jumps used to be questions in themselves, now they are part of a skinny/ditch/angle/dark into light/bending line combination extravaganza with a whack-a-mole waiting to pop you off your beloved mount.

GAHH I know skinnies arent that hard, but come on now these combos are getting ridiculous. I would much rather see a 9ft wide ditch and brush to get some real air and show what these horses got!

[monstrpony]

Back when I was eventing, I used to have a nightmare in which I'd start on a straightforward Novice level cross-country course, and as the dream developed, I'd end up in a crowded furniture warehouse, where the jumps were crammed together, very complicated, and there was nowhere to take off or land.

Looks like my nightmare is coming true.

[LisaB]

Being an armchair Monday night advanced rider, the decorations and the construction do not bother me in the slightest. What we have missed is that take a look at each of the jumps. Do you see a good visual groundline in any of them? A little mulch does nothing for the horse. And from the pics, I see very bad distances. Very short, very nasty.
I see exactly where the problem is in this course. The horse has to quickly analyze each and every one of these jumps in the pictures. There is not one that I see that has a good shape to it for an inviting jump. The combos look even worse.
These horse's brains were probably exhausted causing a crappy round.

[arnika]

I agree with the "too many skinnies" opinions. I wouldn't have such a problem with the animals if it weren't for all the pointed bits sticking up and out. I believe the dolphin jump caused issues because of the tail, so it was given a flag in the middle and made into another skinny. The other main problems I had were with the groundlines and the trees being used as jump sides. No where to run out without going Splat.

After looking at John William's course pics, I have to say I like the skinny with the fan effect. Optical illusion I know but it leads the mind to perceive it as a wider jump than it is.

[pwynnnorman]

What a fun inviting course! That's what xc should be about, not this Las Vegas theme park that seems so popular. Love the cows.

Maybe it's the open terrain and flatness, but I must admit that, to my eyes, it doesn't look comparable to east coast ***s. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but could one say that stayed "focused" is part of the challenge? A lot of those fences at Galway are so isolated that even the complexes wouldn't have that aspect of challenge to it. And in comparison to European tracks I've seen on video, it does seem a bit overly straightforward.

Tough to tell with just photos, of course, but y'know what I kept thinking--of all odd things--while "walking" that course online? Gee, some of those old troopers who've done a gazillion courses could probably take even the complexes riderless. They'd just look up and go for the next set of flags.

Now, I've no doubt I've totally undersestimated that course. No doubt at all. But it just seems so DIFFERENT.

[CookiePony]

Wynn, I'm confused, are you talking about Pine Top or Galway? Mtn Trails was responding to my pics of Pine Top, I think.

Both Galway and PT have more wide open space than Red Hills, it seems (I have not been to RH or Galway). I realize that it is hard to capture how elements of the course relate to each other with still photos.

[Jazzy Lady]

Maybe it's the open terrain and flatness, but I must admit that, to my eyes, it doesn't look comparable to east coast ***s. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but could one say that stayed "focused" is part of the challenge? A lot of those fences at Galway are so isolated that even the complexes wouldn't have that aspect of challenge to it. And in comparison to European tracks I've seen on video, it does seem a bit overly straightforward.

Tough to tell with just photos, of course, but y'know what I kept thinking--of all odd things--while "walking" that course online? Gee, some of those old troopers who've done a gazillion courses could probably take even the complexes riderless. They'd just look up and go for the next set of flags.

Now, I've no doubt I've totally undersestimated that course. No doubt at all. But it just seems so DIFFERENT.

Pine Top's course was an advanced, not a CIC***, but the course was large and challenging. That obviously didn't show the whole course, but there were some technical combos but they still encouraged forward and bold instead of backwards. The good galloping courses are where the horses and riders gain their confidence. Some of those fences were very upright, but a solid groundline on them, like the red table and the gates helped pick the horses up when they got a bit close.

It is different. It's a good different.

[CookiePony]

I did notice as I looked back over the Pine Top pics that each fence has a clear groundline.

[blackwly]

Pwynn, I think you were talking about Galway and if you were, I agree. I checked that course out earlier today and thought, "hmmm, that doesn't really look like a ***." Of course, looks can be deceiving from a computer screen. However, it did look really fun, inviting, and fairly safe! My experience from riding at the CA events (including Galway) for 4 years is that they do tend to be a step behind the east coast in terms of intensity and technical questions...flame suit on for that one!

As for the course at Pine Top Advanced, I walked it and watched it this year and it certainly seemed to ride well. I was actually a little surprised that it wasn't a bit more technical but in retrospect I think it was a good early season advanced course. It definitely looked like fun.

The thing that bothered me about the Red Hills course was really what appears on film to be such a stop-and-go mentality, played out over big fences. From the pics (again, for what that's worth) there often doesn't seem to be more than 2 or 3 stride on landing before you crash into trees if you haven't made a sharp turn. Asking that question once or twice is one thing, but that can certainly get exhausting and off-putting for horse and rider if you're trying to do it all day long.

[AiryFairy]

...to someone who hasn't evented since the good old days of 1992, when fences were logs and boards and stone walls and stuff...what is WITH all the skinny jumps? Sure, everyone needs to be tested on their accuracy, but every other jump? One or two, ok, but five or six, or were there more, I lost count. The decorations, (sorry all you RHHT artistes), while fun to look at, really couldn't get further away from eventing as I knew it. I can see some creativity in SJ, but not to that extent on cross country.

Did CMP *really* sit down and design a wedge of cheese with a big rodent sticking out of it? Because that's just the biggest contradiction ever.

[Gnep]

I disagree with the fancy overdecorating, sure people put a lot of work into it and they did a very nice job.

But I agree taking a log and carve it, make it look fancy, I like carved logs, I love to do them myself, but it should not disfigure the log.
I dont mind to have a few fancy painted jump, but they have to be few, maybe 2 or three.
I dislike the croko over carved, I like the amadillos, as beautiful a piece of work the delphin is it is not a nice jump, I realy loved that skinny log in all those mushrooms, just a beautiful piece of wood and beautifully worked.
Realy bad the cheese and that mouse stiking out, that is geting to cute.

But the quality of workmans ship, outstanding

[Clear Blue]

The COTH mag has some info on what were the problem fences in the CIC***W.

There were only 8/22 rides w/ no jumping penalities. The 18 refusals came at the Red Hills Barn, Mouse Trap and Wedge, Fungi, Mercedes Complex and the Alligator Alley.

I know a big factor was the lines, but I am not fond of the idea of horses having to jump animals (chickens and mice). Especially if they didn't have time to look at them (and realize they weren't moving) - it seems an unfair question. As others have mentioned it might be more appropriate to put some of the decorations on the side.

[Granada]

Maybe it's the open terrain and flatness, but I must admit that, to my eyes, it doesn't look comparable to east coast ***s. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but could one say that stayed "focused" is part of the challenge? A lot of those fences at Galway are so isolated that even the complexes wouldn't have that aspect of challenge to it. And in comparison to European tracks I've seen on video, it does seem a bit overly straightforward.

Tough to tell with just photos, of course, but y'know what I kept thinking--of all odd things--while "walking" that course online? Gee, some of those old troopers who've done a gazillion courses could probably take even the complexes riderless. They'd just look up and go for the next set of flags.

Now, I've no doubt I've totally undersestimated that course. No doubt at all. But it just seems so DIFFERENT.

I wouldn't exactly call galway flat. half the course is on a long hill that feels like a hill, i'd say it has more terrain than other CA courses. Also, that course was built almost ten years ago now I think. Besides some add ons, I think it hasn't changed that much. But I've never been to an event on the east coast. Our CA courses don't look nearly as sophisticated as the east coast courses.

I have major issue with the cheese wedges. Do they have large holes carved into the top? They look like leg catching holes. I had a fall once where the horse caught the astroturf on a table and ripped part of it down... I can only imagine if there had been a hole there...

I would hope we could have technical and inviting at the same time.

[Aimee Thanatogenus]

Let's assume these big name courses are being designed the way they are because (according to the USEF) people don't like to walk much and they want some freakish theme park feeling to it. Where do we go from there? Can we find a middle ground? Will Darth Phillips punish us all for our lack of faith? Would his daughter do well on the courses he has recently designed here? Will David O'Connor sound off like he's got a pair or will he roll over for a belly rub and a treat from the USET board? Does Karen O'Connor have anything to say? If you buy one...are you really getting another free? Tune in tomorrow. Same Bat-Time. Same Bat-Channel.

:lol::lol::lol::D:yes::yes:

I think I popped a kidney laughing so hard at this post!!!

What a Jooooke!

Mark Phillips...had such a rep as a horsetrader in the UK, oh laaaawd.

Are they kidding?
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2600257020066718914WYfKte
wt...????

[lstevenson]

OK, I see a ridiculous amount of skinnies and the fact that many of the "table" type fences had way too vertical of a profile.

And the mouse head sticking out of the cheese wedge looks very unsafe to me. Did any horse knock a head off?

My horse was great at those questions, and I could see even him being put off/distracted by the head. Horses tend to naturally move right or left to avoid something like that.

IMO the course is just asking for the horse to be overstimulated and make mistakes.

[RunForIt]

Haven't read the thread, but by way of comparison, John William's Pine Top Advanced HT course:

http://flickr.com/photos/11305497@N06/sets/72157604038467077/

So, granted the course at PTF is an Advanced HT course, and the one at RH is an FEI course (can never remember the proper letters), what changes would need to be done at PTF ( gods of Eventing please deliver us from that ever happening!) to make this an FEI course? longer distance? more jumps? Cows to jump?

What makes one course a bigger "prize" - as in prestige - to run over other than the letters?