How Much For An Unstarted Coming 5 Year Old?

[Bamgone]

I may have found an awesome prospect.

Of course, I am not the only one, and the reason why said horse is unsold (and unstarted) is because the owner has no horse knowledge and thinks he is sitting on a gold mine.:rolleyes:

Horse went unsold as a yearling/2 year old for 20K, and evidently the price doesn't change over the years.

Provided I like him, what do you think is a fair offer?

Horse in question is well bred--W line Hanoverian--(I think) gorgeous and sweet.
And I am super picky too so thats saying a lot:winkgrin:!

[FancyFree]

I don't think you've given enough info. What's he doing now? He's still unstarted? He could well be worth 20K. I think you need to give a more in depth description.

[Bamgone]

Sorry can't tell anymore than what I know!:lol:

I briefly saw the horse standing in the pasture a month ago, saw him, and went holey moley!:cool:

Awesome horse--super nice conformation from what I could tell and a topline to die for! And yep, he is unstarted.

I have an appointment to see him at which time I can make a better assessment, but from what I can tell, and from what I was told, the 20K offer was an overstatement! Nice horse, but please.

So who knows? Yeah, he might be worth that much money, but seriously at his age wouldn't the fact he has done NADA reduce his value?

[Mary in Area 1]

If you haven't seen him move, you know nothing about him. If he is really well bred, nice conformation, good disposition, etc. and have had NO HANDLING at all, he could STILL be worth more than $20K if he is a phenomenial mover. Yeah, he would be worth more if he had training, but these days, a well-bred 5 year old, with training and good movement, can sell for $85K. Do some research on similar breeding and pricing. You may learn a lot.

[Bamgone]

I have done a ton of research, and from what I have found the super nice (read expensive) horses are imported. I have yet to find an unstarted 5 year old home bred for big bucks.

Yes, I have seen horses advertised at 65 maybe 80K, but they have all been under saddle for YEARS! And some of them have been bred in the good ole USA, but again, at age 5 they have been started and going for a long, long time.

This horse knows NADA!

And really, let's use some common sense. Trainer who HAS seen horse go, and knows the offers made on said horse, let me know in no uncertain terms that the owner is a tad off his rocker for thinking the horse was worth 20K as a 2 year old.

I am thinking that if the horse was really worth what he wants he would have sold right? It's not as if no one has expressed any interest either.

[AKB]

He also could be difficult or impossible to train because of his lack of handling. I think you need to spend some time with him and have a professional evaluate him after you have worked with him some. I don't know how hard it will be to persuade a 5 year old that he is supposed to work for a living and is not entitled to a life of leisure.

[FancyFree]

Horses that know NADA regularly go for hundreds of thousands of dollars. The horse I bought at an auction probably would have fetched more had she not been exhibited at lunch time. She knew NADA. I bought her for $14,000. When I went to her stall I heard the owner lamenting that he was sure she'd go to $50,000.

I guess you never know. Horses are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

[Bamgone]

He also could be difficult or impossible to train because of his lack of handling. I think you need to spend some time with him and have a professional evaluate him after you have worked with him some. I don't know how hard it will be to persuade a 5 year old that he is supposed to work for a living and is not entitled to a life of leisure.

Possibly, however, I have heard of horses even older than 5 who took to work with no problem.

If anything, at his age it is easier to focus.

And he is not started because the owner has not seen to it--and he obviously feels the horse will sell for big bucks at his age with no training. I beg to differ! Maybe at 2 or 3 or heck, even 4, but 5?:confused:

And how old was your mare fancy free? It's not unheard of to ask 15-20 for an unstarted 3 year old, but not at 5. And yes, there are plenty of super nice unstarted 2 year olds going for 14 or more, but really the bloom is off the rose at his age doncha think?

[FancyFree]

And he is not started because the owner has not seen to it--and he obviously feels the horse will sell for big bucks at his age with no training. I beg to differ! Maybe at 2 or 3 or heck, even 4, but 5

I don't know, if he's exceptional he could still cost a pretty penny,

[Bamgone]

I don't know, if he's exceptional he could still cost a pretty penny,

True, he may be worth the pretty penny.

And if so, why has he not found that match?

My thinking is that the pretty penny has proven far too elusive, and I shall be the lucky maiden who snatches him up for a mere pittance.:lol::winkgrin:

One can dream right?;)

[Lambie Boat]

can you name his exact lineage or will that be tipping your hand?

I am starting coming 6 yr olds, and glad I waited in one instance. The maturity level is there. This horse is practically begging for the job! 15 months ago, not so much

however, has been a ton of groundwork & lunging done. and yours?

[Bamgone]

can you name his exact lineage or will that be tipping your hand?

I am starting coming 6 yr olds, and glad I waited in one instance. The maturity level is there. This horse is practically begging for the job! 15 months ago, not so much

however, has been a ton of groundwork & lunging done. and yours?

Ahh finally someone who understands!:D

Yeah, should be no biggie to start him even at 5.

I shall PM you the details.

[WBLover]

Well, heck, if the horse would have been worth $85k as an unstarted 2 year old, then now he could be worth $20k. But if he was worth $20k as an unstarted 2 year old, then now he's probably $12k. I say GO FOR IT!

I don't see any reason as long as the horse has a good temperament why he would be any more difficult to start now rather than sooner. That's IF he has a good temperament.

Heck, people adopt BLM mustangs at 3/4/5 who haven't even SEEN humans before and get them going just fine.

[Daydream Believer]

I started two PMU mares for someone this winter and one was 14 years old. She was fine. Temperament is so important though and there are BLM mustangs that never get broken also. Don't compromise on temperament and you will probably be OK.

[magnum]

I have to question the OP's knowlege of the horse market and horse business in GENERAL.

First off, if you take such offense to the price, keep on driving.

Secondly, and perhaps more clearly, take time to do a wee bit of homework! Consider what the seller likely has invested in the horse ALREADY. For starters, go over to the Sport Horse Breeder's category and pull up some of the poster's websites.

In short, well conformed W line WEANLINGS (and some not so well conformed ;) ) are at an asking priced of $6 to $18K.

Do the math. Let's say this owner paid $12K for this horse as a WEANLING. Figure a minimum of $200 per month to "grow" a horse = ~ $5K per year.

So, a $12K purchase price ... plus $5K x 5 years = $37K. This $37K figure is what the owner LIKELY has in to this 5 y.o. already. ... this, being an extremely conservative figure. I have not included the cost of gelding (around $800), deworming, SHOTS, teeth floats, foot trims, $400+ in registration fees (if he is), etc.

If the owner were to reduce the price from $20K down to ... oh, say, $12K ... that would represent a ~$25K loss for him !!!!!!!!!!

What seller is willing to take a $25K loss? I don't see them exactly ... lining up :no: ...

If nothing else, the seller would be risking his status as a horse business with the IRS. Yes, it's true, the IRS will comb the market to determine current prices for similar horses. They will then make a decision based on what you sold a horse for vs. what the current market average for a similar horse. If you sell well below that market value, they can rule to withdraw your claim as a business owner, switching you over, instead to a "hobby" owner ... with no prayer for any future tax shelter or claims as a horse business. You could also incur a HUGE penalty. Again, I don't see sellers lining up to the plate ...

Magnum

[NoDQhere]

First off, 5 isn't "too old to start" for a Warmblood. I think they are babies until at least 7 :lol: So I wouldn't worry about that, as long as he is decent and respectful to be around.

That said, I agree that an unstarted 5 year old isn't worth 20K. He may well be worth that once he is WTC.

With this economy, there are a lot of "bargins" out there!

[ESG]

I think the fact that the owner's been trying to sell him for that same $20K since he was a weanling, speaks volumes. :winkgrin:

If you really think he's that nice, go "try" him in as full a fashion as you can, and then make your decision. If I read correctly, you've yet to lay a hand on this horse. I'd reserve judgement until I at least knew something about him personally.

JMO. :cool:

[egontoast]

Provided I like him, what do you think is a fair offer?



Weird. It's a horse in a field and you aren't sure if you like him or not .

How do you expect anyone here to know whether the seller is being unrealistic or whether you are being unrealistic in hoping to get this "find' for a pittance.

There is not just one price for all unstarted wellbred coming 5 yr olds.

[quiet5]

If nothing else, the seller would be risking his status as a horse business with the IRS. Yes, it's true, the IRS will comb the market to determine current prices for similar horses. They will then make a decision based on what you sold a horse for vs. what the current market average for a similar horse. If you sell well below that market value, they can rule to withdraw your claim as a business owner, switching you over, instead to a "hobby" owner ... with no prayer for any future tax shelter or claims as a horse business. You could also incur a HUGE penalty. Again, I don't see sellers lining up to the plate ...


I don't know if the IRS will "comb the market" for any justified loss (they lack the time and manpower for that). If your business gets audited, it's usually the taxpayer's resp. to provide the justification--Anyway, the market IS softening, don't kid yourselves...:eek:
The economy's tanking and even rich people are being more conservative w/ re to purchases...:yes:

[Valentina_32926]

I don't think 20K for a unstarted 5 yo is high provided he has good ground manners and passes vet. Imagine how much it would cost you to raise one from a baby -> 5-6K (or more) for getting a baby on the ground with ZERO complications and decent bloodlines, then several K each year for food, farrier, vet bills.

I'd say if he moves nicely and vet says he's good to go and he doesn't try to kill you on the ground - go for it!

[Bamgone]

First off, 5 isn't "too old to start" for a Warmblood. I think they are babies until at least 7 :lol: So I wouldn't worry about that, as long as he is decent and respectful to be around.

That said, I agree that an unstarted 5 year old isn't worth 20K. He may well be worth that once he is WTC.

With this economy, there are a lot of "bargins" out there!

My thinking exactly!

OK, it may seem weird to some of you that I simply noticed a magnificent looking and very sweet horse among a sea of ehh horses, and went holey moley!:lol: But hey, I have usually found IME that the horses that catch your eye--even all wet and shaggy--usually have that something extra.

I am VERY picky, and yes surprisingly educated about horses in general as well as the current horse market. I have traveled to Europe more than once, and driven all over the country side as well as to horse shows with a local agent, which taught me a ton about nice horses. A horse that we in America would drool over, well, their response can be a mild. hmm just OK. It takes a lot to catch my eye, and form is function, so provided the horse lives up to my expectations and I feel it would be a good match, I want to be prepared to make an educated offer.

And yes, I know only too well how much it costs to breed and care for a young horse. When you add up stud fees, breeding costs, mare care, foaling, farrier, vet, and dental costs it is a tidy sum.

However, it is a business and as such there is little thing called supply and demand. A QH or Arab costs as much to raise as a WB, but it is rare to see a super expensive weanling. Why? For the most part, WB breeding in the US has not been able to keep up with demand, hence the high prices, and let's face it, a truly spectacular animal will always command a tidy sum.

Again, as a business if your inventory is not moving what do you do? Clearance sale! Gotta make room for the new models. Why should horse breeding be immune to market forces? You buy a McMansion 2 years ago at 1 million, you can hardly expect to get what you paid for it today right?

I know successful breeders who sell out of all their foal crop as weanlings. Maybe they have a yearling or two or 3, and maybe as time has passed they are coming up as 3 or 4 or heaven forbid 5 and haven't sold. Not a good place to be in--they lose money if they sell even as old as a yearling unless the price is high enough.

Again, it's not my concern as a consumer. I am simply being smart. I will need to insure my new horse, and if bad luck strikes and there is a death, said horse will need to be accurately insured. It makes no sense to insure a horse for more than their worth does it not? Can't make the mistake of buying an overvalued animal.

In any event, the seller is NOT a breeder. And from what I can glean from the trainer, not even a horse person per se, so worrying about the IRS is the least of their concerns. However, since a horse costs money to keep, it would make sense to get the money now--even if it's not what the seller truly feels the horse is worth--rather than wait and be out the money anyway. It's a tough market to be sure and there are bargains to be found--now is not the time to expect a quick sale at a high price.

If it happens, hey, more power to ya!:winkgrin:

[ESG]

But you still haven't laid hands on the horse yet, right?

If not, why are you wanting to know how much to offer, for something you know nothing about?

I'm confused :confused:

[Bamgone]

But you still haven't laid hands on the horse yet, right?

If not, why are you wanting to know how much to offer, for something you know nothing about?

I'm confused :confused:

I always go by my gut.

Horses are a gamble and a risk.

I rarely, if ever, get a good feeling like I do about this horse, and the last time I did he was indeed the one and I bought him!

And with that horse, all I did was pick out his photo on the breeder's website, then go and look at him eating. Saw one look his conformation and my jaw dropped. Which is pretty much all I have done with this horse.

Watching him move, checking out his dam, getting a second opinion from a trainer/friend, arranging a PPE, heck all those events were gravy. I pretty much knew from that very moment when I saw him hanging out having breakfast as a gangly, fugly 2 year old.

Believe it or not it happens!

So if lighting does indeed strike twice, I want to be prepared. Rather than come home and agonize over the price, I want to be able to make an offer right then and there. Subject to a PPE of course.:yes:

[Peg]

This is an interesting thread. I see that I am not pricing my nice mare high enough if I am to consider what is being said about nice prospects going under saddle. My Hanoverian was imported, has an excellent pedigree, is now an elite mare after foaling an awesome foal and is now under saddle at my trainer's farm and to quote: "a wonderful mare, sweet willing and ready to please." I guess after the first show she will being going up pricewise. Peg

[EqTrainer]

I would have to see the horse in person and handle it before I could have an opinion.

I have had more than one horse who greatly benefited from being started "late". If you consider how long a horse grows, 5 is not that old. And honestly, I don't see the ones who get started "late" being "late" in their training forever. It almost seems like because they had more time to grow into their bodies, they skip some of the unbalanced manovering we see in the three and four year olds.

I have a now 6 year old WB that we started as a five year old.. I would have easily paid 20k for him as a 5 year old.

It is easier to judge how a 5 year old will be when he is mature. That's a great reason to buy older and unbroke.

But overall the thing I would be assessing the most is temperament. Remember, sometimes there is a reason horses aren't started at five ;)

[mp]

I am VERY picky, and yes surprisingly educated about horses in general as well as the current horse market. I have traveled to Europe more than once, and driven all over the country side as well as to horse shows with a local agent, which taught me a ton about nice horses. A horse that we in America would drool over, well, their response can be a mild. hmm just OK. It takes a lot to catch my eye, and form is function, so provided the horse lives up to my expectations and I feel it would be a good match, I want to be prepared to make an educated offer.

So ... use your education and make an offer. Good luck

[Bamgone]

I would have to see the horse in person and handle it before I could have an opinion.

I have had more than one horse who greatly benefited from being started "late". If you consider how long a horse grows, 5 is not that old. And honestly, I don't see the ones who get started "late" being "late" in their training forever. It almost seems like because they had more time to grow into their bodies, they skip some of the unbalanced manovering we see in the three and four year olds.

I have a now 6 year old WB that we started as a five year old.. I would have easily paid 20k for him as a 5 year old.

It is easier to judge how a 5 year old will be when he is mature. That's a great reason to buy older and unbroke.

But overall the thing I would be assessing the most is temperament. Remember, sometimes there is a reason horses aren't started at five ;)

I agree.

His age doesn't bother me. In fact it's a asset due to the fact he is more mature both physically and mentally. There will be less of a guessing game as well as to how he will turn out since, at coming 5, he is almost done growing.

And yes, temperment is key. Regardless of age or training.

As far as price, well, I am basing my reactions on the opinion of the trainer who knows him far better than I. She did not feel his price was warranted. If she said, well he is an awesome, super nice horse and he is well worth what the owner wants for him., then yeah, I am being a cheap, uneducated jerk. :lol:

Nope, she said the exact opposite, so I am NOT rejecting his asking price off hand. Far from it!

And he is unstarted because evidently the owner doesn't feel it's necessary. And he has had many, many people offer to buy him over the years so it's not like he is a bad horse with a nasty attitude. From what I was told, he is a nice horse, people want to buy him, but owner has an unrealistic and over inflated view of his value.

[MyReality]

A horse that is unstarted at 5, is very late. Yes wb grow slowly but 5 is still very late.

Put 30 or preferably 90 days on him, the horse can be sold at full price in my opinion. It's amazing people who want to sell horses don't even want to consider this step. You go to an auction, not your fancy wb pedigree auction, horses sat on sell for at least 50% more.

As is, I won't put more than 10 on him. Sale price is not about how much you pay for stud fee or vet or feed. Investment is purely based on pedigree as a unbroke, and training when under saddle. It's not a house or car. That's why it won't make money unless you're a breeder or a trainer who has her own farm. Don't even get into it as a business cuz there is not enough money there. Even people who try to flip horses and house them in A barn, still hit and miss.

This horse is not invested on. Therefore apparently he is not that valuable. And apparently I would face potentially more challenge starting a horse that late, and potentially there is more catching up to do than other horses.

Situations like this attract bargain hunters. Why? Ammies will not touch them well we usually think long and hard about buying any unstart horse. 5 year old unstart has too little to show for the average professionals, you don't make any money starting horses at 5. ok unless he is just absolutely spectacular as in FEI potential... if he is, then he should be sold at 2, well unless it is some funny problem that prevent sale like a divorce or illness or something. It's just a bad place to be.

[WBLover]

magnum, unfortunately, it doesn't matter one iota how much money one has into a horse to determine it's value.

A horse is worth what someone is willing to pay. If the owner doesn't want to accept anything less than a certain number and no one is willing to pay that amount, horse doesn't sell--bottom line.

I think most breeders agree they can't always get what they have put into their horses in $$ value. But the ones that sell younger for the higher prices hopefully make up for the losses they take on others that they sit on for a while.

Some breeders will admit that they really don't make money in breeding, but they do it because they love it!

[class]

I am VERY picky, and yes surprisingly educated about horses in general as well as the current horse market. I have traveled to Europe more than once, and driven all over the country side as well as to horse shows with a local agent, which taught me a ton about nice horses. A horse that we in America would drool over, well, their response can be a mild. hmm just OK. It takes a lot to catch my eye, and form is function, so provided the horse lives up to my expectations and I feel it would be a good match, I want to be prepared to make an educated offer.



She did not feel his price was warranted. If she said, well he is an awesome, super nice horse and he is well worth what the owner wants for him., then yeah, I am being a cheap, uneducated jerk.

Nope, she said the exact opposite, so I am NOT rejecting his asking price off hand. Far from it!


you lost me somewhere. you are extremely picky and have extensive "european" knowledge and have looked at a ton of super nice horses so you know one when you see it, and so you love this horse but he is not even worth $20K? then you talked to a local trainer who doesn't think he is an awesome, super nice horse? in fact, she said the opposite? apparently, one of you is wrong.

on the other hand, it doesn't matter if you are the grand professor of horse prices, no matter how super educated your offer is, the seller doesn't have to take it. and it sounds like if his price has been $20K for the last 3 years then the seller is holding out for $20K. Maybe his price will come down after he turns 10. or maybe they will send him to a trainer this summer and then his price will double.

[slc2]

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[slc2]

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[slc2]

Boy will the seller love you, and all the people that don't ask themselves why the seller hasn't and still doesn't send this horse to a training barn for 1-2 months, get him broke if he's so damned easy and nice, and sell him for 2-3 times that 20k. Let me see...spend 1500 dollars, make 40 or 50 thousand dollars, or make 20 thousand dollars (or a lot less). Let me see...why would someone do that.....

What you want agreement on:

1. this is a great situation - all late started horses always do fine and are easy to train

2. the horse isn't really worth 20 grand because he has no training, and will go for far less even
that 20k.

3. unbroke five year olds never sell for 20 grand anyhow

You will find PLENTY of people who will tell you all late started horses do fine. But remember, they won't be there when you are trying to train it, keep it sound and socialize it. YOU will be there having to do it - not them. And ah...see how many W line hannoverians are included in the head count.

Reality - unbroke 5 yr olds and up sell for over 20k all the time. A very well bred well built warmblood that moves like a Poetin will sell for over 20k, in fact, they'll sell for over two HUNDRED k.

Also - it is not always possible to just pick up a 5 year old and start training them and have them stay sound and have them be agreeable to training or even SAFE...ever.....

For every case a person brags about as being a success, I can think of ten that were not. Many of them were catastrophically NOT a success.

Horses that are not worked some at 3 and 4, now have their physiques and bone density 'set' at a low level of pasture activity - which for some horses is virtually no exercise, and for most, is not comparable to working in a ring. If the horse stays sound for anything other than light work without at least TWO YEARS of very gradual increase in work, frankly, you will be lucky. Some horses will NEVER be as athletic as their peers who received reasonable (emphasis on reasonable) work and handling at 3 and 4.

Do you really think you can get away with just leaving out two years of the horse's education? Sorry, but horse training does not work that way. You build on what you taught them as a 3 year old, and then as a 4 year old. There is no free lunch where you just leave out 2 years of work with the 5 year old. You have to put in those two years of basic work, no matter when you start them.

"More focused"? Guess again. Sure, occasionally a 5 yr old will be easy to start. But....If they don't have the practice of two years of being trained, ESPECIALLY if they're just out in a field, and handled little, they AREN'T 'more focused' and they DON'T have an attention span unless it's been developed thru years of work!

Horses that are not worked at 3 and 4 and live in a pasture can have a HELL of a time getting used to ordinary things we take for granted a horse knows and tolerates. Bathing mine was a rodeo designed to provide some broken bones, and EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING terrified him. A hose in the aisle. A person walking in the door. And the 200th, 300th time it happened, it was STILL scary.

Many horses, - no, not a few - have a window of learning for certain basic things. If you don't get to them they aren't ever going to really learn it. And you can't tell me there's a magic way to know beforehand - there is no reliable way to determine which horses will be flexible and learn late and which won't.

And even worse...years later, my friend's field kept started late warmblood started a year EARLIER than yours, required the services of a 'breaker man' to ever get on his back, plus, needed years and years of professional training and very, very hard work, and STILL isn't reliable or safe to trailer, ride and can't be shown. In the busy show atmosphere he has a total meltdown.

Buying an untried 5 year old is a risk. You want to take it? Fine. But be sure of one thing and please, stop kidding yourself - it is a risk. Go into it knowing - sure it may go well, but it also may go very, very badly. A ridden, broke horse is at least in part a known commodity. An unbroken horse is not. There may be a damned good reason he's out in that field for 2 yrs that no one is telling you. After many years around horses...I know enough to not believe every story i hear about a horse that's for sale.

And yes, there are hundreds and thousands of nice broke 5 year olds for sale. The economy is total **** and there are some fantastic bargains out there and more going up for sale all the time. You're buying with your emotions, not your head. It may work out. It may not. You are taking a risk. Just please have that clearly in mind.

as far as your other responses...well...There is nothing a seller and a trainer helping the sale along like MORE than someone who is very, very sure they already have a great deal of knowledge.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

It really doesn't matter what we think a fair offer is. If there is a price you and the owner can agree on and be happy with, that's what counts.

If, so far, he has not agreed to a number less than 20 K, and you and your trainer don't think this "awesome prospect" is worth 20 K - well, you can call the owner and ask if the price is at all negotiable, but it is sounding a touch unlikely to me...

[Valentina_32926]

It also depends on where in the country he is located - some of us just stated prices in our area!

[Bamgone]

you lost me somewhere. you are extremely picky and have extensive "european" knowledge and have looked at a ton of super nice horses so you know one when you see it, and so you love this horse but he is not even worth $20K? then you talked to a local trainer who doesn't think he is an awesome, super nice horse? in fact, she said the opposite? apparently, one of you is wrong.

on the other hand, it doesn't matter if you are the grand professor of horse prices, no matter how super educated your offer is, the seller doesn't have to take it. and it sounds like if his price has been $20K for the last 3 years then the seller is holding out for $20K. Maybe his price will come down after he turns 10. or maybe they will send him to a trainer this summer and then his price will double.

No need to be snarky!

Nope, I am no expert. Far from it. And heck, my *european* experience is not vast--I simply have some of it under my belt.:D And no, I am not a horse price sales guru either.

I have a brain, two eyes and common sense. Which tells me super fancy horses sell as weanlings or shortly thereafter, or else the breeder bides their time, waits and then sends them to an auction, whereupon they fetch the lovely sum of a gazillion euros.:winkgrin:

And lovely or not, or picky or not, I simply don't feel any horse is worth opening my wallet for 20K if unstarted. Just my personal preference. I saw it happening with Ferro babies, buy that was years ago.

[Bamgone]

Boy will the seller love you, and all the people that don't ask themselves why the seller hasn't and still doesn't send this horse to a training barn for 1-2 months, get him broke if he's so damned easy and nice, and sell him for 2-3 times that 20k. Let me see...spend 1500 dollars, make 40 or 50 thousand dollars, or make 20 thousand dollars (or a lot less). Let me see...why would someone do that.....

What you want agreement on:

1. this is a great situation - all late started horses always do fine and are easy to train

2. the horse isn't really worth 20 grand because he has no training, and will go for far less even
that 20k.

3. unbroke five year olds never sell for 20 grand anyhow

You will find PLENTY of people who will tell you all late started horses do fine. But remember, they won't be there when you are trying to train it, keep it sound and socialize it. YOU will be there having to do it - not them. And ah...see how many W line hannoverians are included in the head count.

Reality - unbroke 5 yr olds and up sell for over 20k all the time. A very well bred well built warmblood that moves like a Poetin will sell for over 20k, in fact, they'll sell for over two HUNDRED k.

Also - it is not always possible to just pick up a 5 year old and start training them and have them stay sound and have them be agreeable to training or even SAFE...ever.....

For every case a person brags about as being a success, I can think of ten that were not. Many of them were catastrophically NOT a success.

Horses that are not worked some at 3 and 4, now have their physiques and bone density 'set' at a low level of pasture activity - which for some horses is virtually no exercise, and for most, is not comparable to working in a ring. If the horse stays sound for anything other than light work without at least TWO YEARS of very gradual increase in work, frankly, you will be lucky. Some horses will NEVER be as athletic as their peers who received reasonable (emphasis on reasonable) work and handling at 3 and 4.

Do you really think you can get away with just leaving out two years of the horse's education? Sorry, but horse training does not work that way. You build on what you taught them as a 3 year old, and then as a 4 year old. There is no free lunch where you just leave out 2 years of work with the 5 year old. You have to put in those two years of basic work, no matter when you start them.

"More focused"? Guess again. Sure, occasionally a 5 yr old will be easy to start. But....If they don't have the practice of two years of being trained, ESPECIALLY if they're just out in a field, and handled little, they AREN'T 'more focused' and they DON'T have an attention span unless it's been developed thru years of work!

Horses that are not worked at 3 and 4 and live in a pasture can have a HELL of a time getting used to ordinary things we take for granted a horse knows and tolerates. Bathing mine was a rodeo designed to provide some broken bones, and EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING terrified him. A hose in the aisle. A person walking in the door. And the 200th, 300th time it happened, it was STILL scary.

Many horses, - no, not a few - have a window of learning for certain basic things. If you don't get to them they aren't ever going to really learn it. And you can't tell me there's a magic way to know beforehand - there is no reliable way to determine which horses will be flexible and learn late and which won't.

And even worse...years later, my friend's field kept started late warmblood started a year EARLIER than yours, required the services of a 'breaker man' to ever get on his back, plus, needed years and years of professional training and very, very hard work, and STILL isn't reliable or safe to trailer, ride and can't be shown. In the busy show atmosphere he has a total meltdown.

Buying an untried 5 year old is a risk. You want to take it? Fine. But be sure of one thing and please, stop kidding yourself - it is a risk. Go into it knowing - sure it may go well, but it also may go very, very badly. A ridden, broke horse is at least in part a known commodity. An unbroken horse is not. There may be a damned good reason he's out in that field for 2 yrs that no one is telling you. After many years around horses...I know enough to not believe every story i hear about a horse that's for sale.

And yes, there are hundreds and thousands of nice broke 5 year olds for sale. The economy is total **** and there are some fantastic bargains out there and more going up for sale all the time. You're buying with your emotions, not your head. It may work out. It may not. You are taking a risk. Just please have that clearly in mind.

as far as your other responses...well...There is nothing a seller and a trainer helping the sale along like MORE than someone who is very, very sure they already have a great deal of knowledge.

Thanks for your most informative and enlightening post. What a kick in the pants, and I am sure I needed that, which is the whole reason why this thread began in the first place.

Yeah, all horses are risks, and yes, maybe a unstarted 5 year old is a very bad idea. I am open to learning something every day--don't know where the assumption that I am a cocky know it all came about. It could very well be true that there is a big story there somewhere--I thought as much when the trainer was tight lipped about the asking price, what he knows, etc. The mantra was, well you can see for yourself.

Hmm, okay.

What is the best bet then? I guess something already under saddle correct? And hope and pray they started them right and didn't fry them too young? Or is an unstarted 3 year old OK?

Seriously asking, because evidently I am a clueless rube.

[WBLover]

bamgone, I wouldn't completely rule the horse out. Yes, there may be a dang good reason why he's not started yet that would make you run--fast.

But what's the harm in going to see the horse with your trainer, and you can put your heads together and evaluate the horse. Between the two of you, you probably can see if the horse has potential, or potential for a lot of headaches.

[ise@ssl]

If this horse is 5 and hasn't even had any ground work - I would ask about the reasons. When we were building our arena - it was being constructed over our sand ring so that cut the training back on several horses. We could only afford to board a couple out to start under saddle. But by 5 - if this horse has good breeding he should have had ground work and someone on him by now. We have an outstanding 3 yo at the same price and he's green broke and handled daily and is solid in his ground work. So that's a comparison for you.

[Bamgone]

Thanks for the kind words of support WBLover.

Yeah, I am going to keep an open mind.

It's hard to know what to do--2 years old who don't vet out due to OCD, 3 year olds under saddle with subtle lameness issues, coming 4 year old stallions with x-rays from heck and bad training to boot, so called 5 year old second level horses for 25K who are not capable of doing a training level test---canter a 20 meter circle or a simple halt/walk transition was not understood--man buying something going with training is no real guarantee either!:(

Which is why I go with my gut. Learned that the hard way when I bought a horse I shouldn't have. There was NO logical reason NOT to buy him--he was a blast to ride, very kind, brave, etc. So why the panic attack? I tell myself, well maybe the PPE will tell me not to buy him. Nope, horse vets clean.

Relied upon the usual experts--vets, trainers, farriers. No one told me. Nope, I was told it was always a *training* issue. Finally, I take it upon myself to have the vet out, and lo and behold it was never a training issue but an undiagnosed physical issue.

Yep, horses are a big risk. I did everything right--homework, you name it, but it still did not work out in my favor.

All because I failed to listen to my gut!

[Wild Oaks Farm]

Wow. I can't believe how snarky people get because someone says they don't think an unstarted horse is worth $20k!

This is not about whether or not so-and-so's offspring cost $85k as a weanling or whether or not an unstarted 15 year old went for $100k. It's about the OP saying that for her, $20k is too much to pay for an unstarted horse. For me, $20k is too much to pay for an unstarted anything and I don't care if it has diamond hooves and a golden mane. But that's just me...if someone else wants to pay it, so be it.

I have a PMU mare who was started at 6 and is not the worse for it. I guess you would be a couple of years behind everyone else in, but who really cares? Especially if it means you get a nicer horse! I don't think it matters how old they are (at least at the local shows I am starting to do) as long as they do their job well. I mean, I can't think of a time a judge ever stopped my test to ask me how old my horse was.

If you start them too young someone on here will tell you you're an idiot, if you start them too late someone will tell you you're an idiot...sheesh!!

I just feel like the poor OP is getting flamed for nothing!

[Bamgone]

Wow. I can't believe how snarky people get because someone says they don't think an unstarted horse is worth $20k!

This is not about whether or not so-and-so's offspring cost $85k as a weanling or whether or not an unstarted 15 year old went for $100k. It's about the OP saying that for her, $20k is too much to pay for an unstarted horse. For me, $20k is too much to pay for an unstarted anything and I don't care if it has diamond hooves and a golden mane. But that's just me...if someone else wants to pay it, so be it.

I have a PMU mare who was started at 6 and is not the worse for it. I guess you would be a couple of years behind everyone else in, but who really cares? Especially if it means you get a nicer horse! I don't think it matters how old they are (at least at the local shows I am starting to do) as long as they do their job well. I mean, I can't think of a time a judge ever stopped my test to ask me how old my horse was.

If you start them too young someone on here will tell you you're an idiot, if you start them too late someone will tell you you're an idiot...sheesh!!

I just feel like the poor OP is getting flamed for nothing!

Thanks!:D

I got seriously spanked for sure!:eek:

[slc2]

i don't think that's what happened at all.

and no, original poster, i ddin't tell you to not buy the horse, if you read back, i never once said that, what i did say is you're going at this very emotionally and not in a practical way...all i am hoping is that you will, if you pursue this unbroke horse or not, be more realistic. a buyer has to be brutally honest with himself and understand his own situation and what's appropriate horse for him. otherwise he gets into a bad situation.

[staceyk]

It seems to me that if you want a "whole warmblood" (not a cross) and you want riding age, you're easily looking at a 20K asking price.

Can you ask about bloodlines? W line covers a lot of territory. A locally known stallion versus, say, one of the "hotties."

[Kyzteke]

Well, I must stay this thread differs alot in the opinions I've gotten before and my own personal experience recently.

I have a very nice branded & approved Hanoverian mare (2/10th of a point from Elite Mare) by a very well regarded Rubinstein son who is a dressage champion in his own right, o/o a Bolero granddaughter (whose sire was also a dressage champion -- Pan Am Team member, etc.).

This mare was bred by me, has THE easiest temperament and was started u/s as a 6 yr. old and given 90 days training by a well-regarded dressage pro. She was a total cupcake to start and was even good out on the trail.

Prior to her (brief) u/s saddle experience she produced two foals, both of whom were graded very highly at their inspections -- in fact the second, by Sempatico, was Gold Premium and finished in the top 20 of the NATION for RPSI in his foaling year.

Both of these foals sold quickly for $9-10K to AA females "of a certain age," who keep raving about the easy temperament and trainability of the boys.

I priced this mare at $16K and thought she would be snapped up. Yet everyone who has looked at her video has said either "she is too green for her age," or "could you lower the price $2-3K?"

$20K for an unstarted 5 year old domestically-bred gelding? Honestly, I must question what these people have been smoking.

[MyReality]

Unstarted 5 year old, great mover real potential, nice temperament, good to handle, vet flying colors, no yellow red lights, 10,000 or less.

If you have the money,

Unstarted 5 year old, solid ground work, saddled bridled (sat on even better), great mover real potential, nice temperament, pass PPE flying colors, no yellow red lights, maybe 12,000.

30 day/60 day 5 year old, contact/simple submission, wtc, great mover real potential, nice temperament, pass PPE flying colors, no yellow red lights, 15,000 or more... I would hum and ha if it's 20,000, but if the horse is really good, oh well...

Well schooled 5 year old, great basics well trained, not proven, great mover real potential, nice temperament, pass PPE flying colors, no yellow red lights, >20,000.

and it goes on.... e.g. Unstarted 2 year old, with full brother/sister consistently made to FEI. Shown in hand. Breeding potential. That could be A LOT OF money even as unbroke.

Personally I would buy,

3 year old, unstarted or lightly started (but <30 days), solid ground work, saddled bridled (sat on even better), three good gait, best temperament, pass PPE flying colors, no yellow red lights, at 5,000 - 7,000. I go straight to the breeder.

Seriously it is totally stupid not to put 30 day on a horse that is supposed to be worth a lot of money. It's a red flag for me.

This is a great year for buying horses. You will have no problem. Good luck!

[Bamgone]

i don't think that's what happened at all.

and no, original poster, i ddin't tell you to not buy the horse, if you read back, i never once said that, what i did say is you're going at this very emotionally and not in a practical way...all i am hoping is that you will, if you pursue this unbroke horse or not, be more realistic. a buyer has to be brutally honest with himself and understand his own situation and what's appropriate horse for him. otherwise he gets into a bad situation.

It's OK.

I know you meant well. Although the flame suit is at the cleaners, my rhino skin works wonders.:cool:

I am being honest with myself--maybe not brutal enough for your tastes--but that is debatable.

I have already passed on an unstarted 5 year old if you will remember. My gut was screaming at me loud and clear--danger Will Robinson! WAY too much horse! And hot and spooky.

If that is *emotional*, then heck so be it. I was horribly *emotional* when I rode a horse everyone and their grandmother told me to buy--agent, vets, yeah more than one, DH, best friend, you name it. My *emotions* told me NOT to buy-so what did I do? I listened to everyone else!:no:

OK, maybe I was a lucky idiot. Last horse purchase was made on *emotion*. Best horse ever! Passed PPE with flying colors! Trainer who started him raved about him so much so I thought maybe they didn't get out much.:lol:

In any event, I shall keep those interested in how it goes when I check out my feral prospect.:)

What DO you think would be a good prospect? I am really curious. Would a nice, well bred and handled 3 year old be my best bet? Only problem is that as I see it would be shipping--it's an hour plane ride away which will eat into my investment, not to mention the fact the best thing for a 3 year old is to back it in the fall at 3 1/2, do 60 days of w/t/c and then turn them out and/or trail ride until they turn 4.

Or go to a local breeder who has a 4 year old unstarted WB cross for sale at approximately 4K less? Or find a coming 4 year old already under saddle for 15K (hey good deal right-totally worth the asking price and the breeder is a sweetheart) but then eat more investment money flying out, getting hotel and car, not to mention shipping said horse across the entire length of the US. I kid you not. Or shell out more moula for the 5 year old?


GAH!!!!!:confused:

[wildREDhorse]

I don't believe anyone has asked this question yet... But is the horse actively being marketed? Or did someone randomly approach this guy, and he said "20K"?

It is possible he didn't really want to sell his pasture beauty and went by the "there is a price for everything" rule... :confused: Just a thought. It is possible.

[Ambrey]

Good luck, Bamgone. I hate horse shopping. Now that I have my two, I am hoping to not shop again for a while.

I agree totally, there's not a horse out there that you don't have to approach cautiously and skeptically. At least with an unstarted 5yo it's all out there, not painted over with rosy pictures of perfection that you have to scratch away to find the catch!

So have you spoken to the owner yet? My big fear is either the catch, or that if there's no catch he really has no plans to sell the horse for less than $20K, but hopefully you'll be able to wheel and deal him ;)

[staceyk]

Hi,

I guess you have to look at each individual horse individually. Take a look at http://www.graemont.com/dollar.php to get an idea of where some of these numbers might be coming from. I look at a lot of breeder web sites -- Rolling Stone Farm, for example, has a great reputation for amateur-friendly, talented, sane horses competitive regionally and nationally. She has one that has not yet gone to the breaker's barn for 35K on her site right now.

Hope this helps...

[Bamgone]

Unstarted 5 year old, great mover real potential, nice temperament, good to handle, vet flying colors, no yellow red lights, 10,000 or less.

If you have the money,

Unstarted 5 year old, solid ground work, saddled bridled (sat on even better), great mover real potential, nice temperament, pass PPE flying colors, no yellow red lights, maybe 12,000.

30 day/60 day 5 year old, contact/simple submission, wtc, great mover real potential, nice temperament, pass PPE flying colors, no yellow red lights, 15,000 or more... I would hum and ha if it's 20,000, but if the horse is really good, oh well...

Well schooled 5 year old, great basics well trained, not proven, great mover real potential, nice temperament, pass PPE flying colors, no yellow red lights, >20,000.

and it goes on.... e.g. Unstarted 2 year old, with full brother/sister consistently made to FEI. Shown in hand. Breeding potential. That could be A LOT OF money even as unbroke.

Personally I would buy,

3 year old, unstarted or lightly started (but <30 days), solid ground work, saddled bridled (sat on even better), three good gait, best temperament, pass PPE flying colors, no yellow red lights, at 5,000 - 7,000. I go straight to the breeder.

Seriously it is totally stupid not to put 30 day on a horse that is supposed to be worth a lot of money. It's a red flag for me.

This is a great year for buying horses. You will have no problem. Good luck!

Thanks SO much!

Now this is the kind of advice I was looking for when I started this dang thread! Ahh, and I thought the drama of horse shopping didn't extend to sincere requests for help and advice. Guess I am naive!:D

As far as the best bet--the unstarted horses as a 3 year old-well I have gone straight to the breeder and told it's 15K. I suppose I could negotiate for 15K to include 60 days on one of them as they are at a ranch where that's what they do, but nope, the only other 3 year old I have found is up North (plane ride) and 14K. Unless I offer her 10K and hope and pray it is taken--or say well I will take him for 14 if you put 30 days on him first. Hmm. How's that for negotiation?

Honestly, I thought an unstarted 4 year old might be better as you could continue the work after the inital 60 day without interruption. Or better yet, find the 4 year old who was lightly started and is now back in work for 15K. Except, yeah dang shipping.

Which is why I naively thought--hey--lovely unstarted 5 year old only 25 miles from my house! Hmmm, he would not need to be babied after his initial starting. That is where the *emotion* comes in--hey this might just solve my problem of finding an affordable, sound and sane WB.:winkgrin:

And if he is an idiot, then I will know. At least I hope my red flag warning system is working!

As far as that 20K figure who knows? And nope, horse is not advertised. I found him while waiting for a friend to show up, was told they had some nice horses, so I took a look.

Nope, I haven't spoken to the owner yet. I am told the best way to handle him is to keep mum when someone is even vaguely interested. Then the trainer puts the offer on the table, and yeah, according to MyReality's most awesome guidelines for pricing, no one in their right mind has seen fit to pay his ransom. And it won't be me either, which is why I felt this thread was proper homework--I didn't want to make a dumb offer based on, oh pretty pony I'll take him!

[Debbie]

It's easy to belittle the owner's position as "ransom" and to find all the reasons they should take less, but they OWN the horse and can ask for it whatever they choose. If he is all you hope, make an offer, if they don't accept, walk away. It's not your place as a potential buyer to talk sense into the seller. If they don't want to take less for the horse, they won't. Clearly they are not in fire sale mode and are happy to keep feeding the horse. Do I think it's smart business not to put 30-90 days on a 5 year old, no, but it's not my business to critique their choices for the THEIR horse.

[Bamgone]

It's easy to belittle the owner's position as "ransom" and to find all the reasons they should take less, but they OWN the horse and can ask for it whatever they choose. If he is all you hope, make an offer, if they don't accept, walk away. It's not your place as a potential buyer to talk sense into the seller. If they don't want to take less for the horse, they won't. Clearly they are not in fire sale mode and are happy to keep feeding the horse. Do I think it's smart business not to put 30-90 days on a 5 year old, no, but it's not my business to critique their choices for the THEIR horse.

Some may call it a critque, others an observation.

Not really trying to belittle the owner, nope just making fun of the wild, weird horse world where there are no real estate appraisers to over see the value of a sale, or a lawyer to make sure sales contracts are not fraudulent and full of hidden kickbacks, or even a child protective services to make sure animals are well taken care of and given a future.

If you failed to educate your children would you as a parent not be failing them in some way? A gelding cannot breed as a stallion or a mare, so a pasture potato is not a good thing.

What would happen if said horse is 10 and unbroke? And owner becomes broke? What would come of said horse? Nice, well bred hmm sounds like the auction block for sure.:cry:

Hey, true story--friend has an unbroke, coming 6 year old breeding stock Paint. What should I offer her? I did my best to gently let her know it's not what I am looking for in my next project, and truthfully, when I got a second, desperate plea to buy him out came the reality check. I told her to give him away. What do I get? An earful and a warning not to *lecture*. Hmm.

Hey, not my problem.

Not my horse.

None of my business I suppose as well.

Just an observation.

[Lambie Boat]

the horses on my farm are living proof that you can buy a lovely well-bred horse, unstarted, in the $10-$14K range. I'd rather buy an older, unstarted, very sound tabula rasa horse than have to re-train some drawreined, deep ridden, broke down young soul that had been pulled down into a frame, beat around the ears horse with bad vices and wrecked legs.

I shopped the west and east coast EXTENSIVELY 3 years ago. Every time I offered a price for a horse that was refused, the seller contacted me several weeks later to say they re-considered. By then I had moved on. In fact, this happened when I was real estate shopping too.

I say if the OP trusts her gut, and feels strongly about the Weltmeyer youngun, she should offer $10-12K for him and step back for a few weeks. Unless she will be heartbroken if he sells to someone else. Doesn't sound like they are actively marketing him so OP has a good shot at a nice horse.

[Bamgone]

the horses on my farm are living proof that you can buy a lovely well-bred horse, unstarted, in the $10-$14K range. I'd rather buy an older, unstarted, very sound tabula rasa horse than have to re-train some drawreined, deep ridden, broke down young soul that had been pulled down into a frame, beat around the ears horse with bad vices and wrecked legs.

I shopped the west and east coast EXTENSIVELY 3 years ago. Every time I offered a price for a horse that was refused, the seller contacted me several weeks later to say they re-considered. By then I had moved on. In fact, this happened when I was real estate shopping too.

I say if the OP trusts her gut, and feels strongly about the Weltmeyer youngun, she should offer $10-12K for him and step back for a few weeks. Unless she will be heartbroken if he sells to someone else. Doesn't sound like they are actively marketing him so OP has a good shot at a nice horse.

Thanks!:winkgrin:

Yeah, my gut has never failed me, so why should it now? It's still under warranty and I make sure to check the batteries every six months without fail.:D:lol::winkgrin:

Took it on a test drive a few weeks ago, and yep, it was working loud and clear. Told me NOT to buy the first heavenly bred unstarted 5 year old. Nope. I passed. Heck, I probably pass on more horses than most people as God only knows how many have tried to sell me a horse as the *one*.

Heck, I might even pass on this one. And yeah, my offer may be refused. Not too much of a risk I would think given the owner's dislike of negotiation.

But nothing ventured, nothing gained. And I refuse to buy a horse on *emotion* as was alleged--if I did that I would offer full asking price or allow my life to stop if my offer is refused.

If that happens, it's not meant to be. And yes, I can live with that.

[ESG]

Thanks for the kind words of support WBLover.

Yeah, I am going to keep an open mind.

It's hard to know what to do--2 years old who don't vet out due to OCD, 3 year olds under saddle with subtle lameness issues, coming 4 year old stallions with x-rays from heck and bad training to boot, so called 5 year old second level horses for 25K who are not capable of doing a training level test---canter a 20 meter circle or a simple halt/walk transition was not understood--man buying something going with training is no real guarantee either!:(

Which is why I go with my gut. Learned that the hard way when I bought a horse I shouldn't have. There was NO logical reason NOT to buy him--he was a blast to ride, very kind, brave, etc. So why the panic attack? I tell myself, well maybe the PPE will tell me not to buy him. Nope, horse vets clean.

Relied upon the usual experts--vets, trainers, farriers. No one told me. Nope, I was told it was always a *training* issue. Finally, I take it upon myself to have the vet out, and lo and behold it was never a training issue but an undiagnosed physical issue.

Yep, horses are a big risk. I did everything right--homework, you name it, but it still did not work out in my favor.

All because I failed to listen to my gut!

I know horse shopping can be frustrating. And I agree that listening to your gut is a far better criteria than listening to anyone or anything else.

That said, you haven't had a chance for your gut to really come into play here. You say now that your gut is telling you this horse is "the one", but I think it's because you're infatuated with him. Until you get up close and personal with that horse, you can't know what he is/isn't, and whether it's really your gut talking, or wishful thinking. ;)

Go see the horse. Take your trainer. Make an offer (if it was indeed your gut talking ;) ) that you're comfortable with. Be prepared to walk away, based on what you've said about the owner.

Good luck. :cool:

[JackSprats Mom]

http://www.graemont.com/dollar.php


$15,000 to $20,000

- An excellent quality foal or yearling that should receive very good placing at breed shows.
-A fun schoolmaster (teenager) that will not pass a pre-purchase exam.
-A locally competitive quality 3 or 4 year old warmblood.
-A two year old with nationally competitive quality.
-A non-warmblood or warmblood cross that's locally (and maybe) regionally competitive at training or first level

OMG is this site high?? Can I have some of what they're smoking?

15-20k for a non warmblood that locally competitive at TL and 1st? My guy just took HOTY for TL Dressage (Arabs) for his region and there is no way I would EVER (well right now) think he's worth that much- or any other horse at TL :eek::eek::eek:

[poltroon]

I think no one knows if the price is right because they haven't seen the horse. Go see it, make your offer, walk away. Maybe he'll call.

The reality in my mind is that his major defect wouldn't be that he's unstarted at 5, but that he clearly has an unknowledgable and uninterested owner. And that owner doesn't have the resources or wherewithal to do the marketing that brings $20k for a WB. So there won't be any other buyers.

At that point, it just comes down to the seller, and his particular illusions, and his reason for owning this horse, and whether or not he's ready to part with it yet.

[staceyk]

http://www.graemont.com/dollar.php

[/B]

OMG is this site high?? Can I have some of what they're smoking?

15-20k for a non warmblood that locally competitive at TL and 1st? My guy just took HOTY for TL Dressage (Arabs) for his region and there is no way I would EVER (well right now) think he's worth that much- or any other horse at TL :eek::eek::eek:

They're guidelines, individual mileage varies and I don't think the Graemont target audience is "the bargain hunter." There will always be the wonderful finds and steals if you are willing to wait until they come along.

Arabs can be great at dressage (congrats!) but they also tend to be under 16 hands, which is a tougher sell. As a tall rider, I've often longed to be shorter so I could take advantage of the really nice 15.3 lovelies at bargain prices. Sound, sane, riding horses 16.2 and up cannot be found for less than 15K, in my experience. Also have to consider age, soundness, potential to go higher, etc.

[slc2]

Graemont is definitely not dealing with bargain hunters who are on a budget of 2-15,000 dollars. The horses are expensive and they make no bones about that.

'Expensive', however, is in the well...the pocket of the beholder. What's expensive to one person just isn't expensive to someone else. Someone who makes 100,000-200,000 dollars a year has more money to spend on a horse than someone who makes 10,000-20,000 dollars a year. Unless a person with a lower wage gets a windfall, an inheritance or something, even 20,000 dollars is going to sound like Oh-My-God-You-Gotta-Be-Kidding.

And horses are just...different.

Recently a dealer in Holland was selling a THoroughbred for 150,000 dollars that did 4th level, PSG. At the same time, there was a Thoroughbred in America, doing PSG, who was also for sale - for 40,000 dollars. There was another Thb for sale that was doing PSG work that was 12,000 dollars. They were all 11.

They were all appropriately priced.

The first one was an international quality horse. He was better balanced, more supple, had bigger gaits, and was a horse my grandmother could ride, light on the bit, correct, totally push button, light aids but not hot or sensitive. He was headed for GP and already doing alot of the work and he had won a lot in Holland in big classes.

The second one was topped out at PSG, and had some local and regional american scores at the low sixties (it was more like a score over 60 was exceptional for him). His training left some to be desired...it took a lot of skill to keep him right in the changes and he had very clearly reached his limit and was not going any further.

The third horse was less well trained, a few high fifties at local shows...and his xrays didn't look too good with some hock changes. He just didn't have the gaits or balance of the first or even the second horse. He had a shorter, stiffer stride, a history of tieing up, white line disease, and a bout with founder.

The level, age, breeding of the horse is only the tip of a very, very large iceberg. I can buy a green broke warmblood for 15,000 dollars, I can also buy one for 500,000 dollars (well not literally, i don't have 500k, i mean they vary in price that much).

And there would definitely be 'other differences' between them. Sure some horses are incorrectly priced. But quite a few are not. Potential, how sound their training is, how good their xrays are, how easy they are to ride, what their blood lines are, how supple, how rhythmic, how much natural balance, how much strength in the back and hind legs, how cooperative they are at accepting training and more difficult challenges, what level they show at vs what level they're schooling at...all these things are much harder to evaluate realistically and they do a lot to determine the price of a horse.

[Kit]

Bamgone, do you know if the owner is even up for offers? Just wondered as if he wanted 20k for him as a 2 yr old, why would you think he would take a lower offer now? Have you been to see him yet?

[GreekDressageQueen]

To the OP - last horse I personally know that was a 5 year old "unbroken, unsold, well-bred import just sitting out in the field because the owner was an idiot" story ended up having serious bone and joint problems (OCD) and other abnormalities that have prevented said horse from advancing beyond second level.

Not saying that the horse you mention is not nice, but I would be very suspicious and proceed with caution. Your 20K (which is WAY too high in my opinion) might not be a bargain if the horse craps out and is only good for light riding or as a lawn ornament.

My cousin bought an unbroken 4 year old from Holland a few years back and it was quite normal for farmers to have unbroken 4 year olds out in the field so nobody (including her trainer) thought it was suspicious. But she also didn't pay anything close to 20k and he is a successful (and sound) jumper now.

[Bamgone]

I know horse shopping can be frustrating. And I agree that listening to your gut is a far better criteria than listening to anyone or anything else.

That said, you haven't had a chance for your gut to really come into play here. You say now that your gut is telling you this horse is "the one", but I think it's because you're infatuated with him. Until you get up close and personal with that horse, you can't know what he is/isn't, and whether it's really your gut talking, or wishful thinking. ;)

Go see the horse. Take your trainer. Make an offer (if it was indeed your gut talking ;) ) that you're comfortable with. Be prepared to walk away, based on what you've said about the owner.

Good luck. :cool:

I think you hit the nail on the head--yep 'tis wishful thinking.

Horse sales are tough.

Not easy to sell and really not easy to find something you like that you want to buy. It's crazy making.

You find something half way decent and you pray that you have found the one so that you may end your quest.

I will see my fantasy horse in the flesh again on Monday. If I find I truly like him then I will make my offer and walk away. I will move on and continue looking, and take it as a sign to abandon my quest to find the perfect, unstarted prospect.

I got super lucky last time, and how often does lighting strike twice? Besides, I really and honestly want to go out and ride and enjoy my new horse, and a total green bean won't afford me that luxury.

[ESG]

You have my sympathy. It will be a couple of years yet, before I start looking for another Iberian for myself, but I already know what a trial that will be. It's tough when you know what sort of horse you need to be riding, and how scarce they are, and how expensive the good ones can be. I'm soooo not looking forward to that. :sigh:

I don't know if you've tried this, but I've always found my best dressage prospects in non-traditional settings. There are lots of hunters and jumpers out there who, either because of age or burnout, or just preference, have the makings of really stunning dressage mounts. Jumpers, especially, can be easily turned into mid and sometimes even upper level horses rather quickly. After all, a good jumper has to be able to lengthen, shorten, be laterally supple, and swap leads. Hmmmmm - sounds like about a 2nd/3rd level horse, to me. And without having to wait for it to grow up and get a brain, where horse shows are concerned. ;)

In fact, I have one (jumper) who is about to embark on his second career as a dressage horse. He has his changes, his lateral work is really stunning, and his extensions are surprising, since he's not a traditional dressage breed. I'm starting him out at 1st level this year, and we'll hope to end up at 2nd by the end of the season. Then, if all goes well, I'll make the foray into 3rd at the beginning of next season, and be to 4th/PSG by the end of that season. And if not? We'll have fun and maybe dare to do a freestyle.

So maybe have your trainer make some calls, to some local hunter/jumper folks, and see what they have for sale. You might be pleasantly surprised. :yes:

[Cielo Azure]

"Consider what the seller likely has invested in the horse ALREADY. "

uhhh. I beg to differ. What someone has invested in a horse means nothing in terms of "real" value.

I don't know if the horse is good or bad but I do know that people invest all kinds of money in horses that aren't worth $500. It doesn't mean that I am willing to pay for their "investment," if they invested their money foolishly.

I do know that going out and inspecting ten horses that are for sale in your price range helps (physically looking at at least ten horses) is a very good way to refine your eye. When you look at Internet sites, it just doesn't cut it. Go out and put your hands on them, go to a big auction or two and get your feet wet before you pull out your pocketbook. You may have done that already and good for you, then you have a "feel" for the market. Also, consider getting a friend or trainer to go with you to look at the horse ( you may even have to pay someone a hundred bucks per horse to come with you). Sometimes, it is so easy to fall in "love" and then you get home and see the straight hind end or the capped hock or whatever. A second opinion is always helpful and sometimes a second person can pick up why a horse is or isn't a good investment.

[amateurbreeder]

"And really, let us use some common sense."

"Yeah, should be no biggie to start him even at 5."

Good luck.

[horsegalriding]

Are you sure the "trainer" isn't tacking an undisclosed fee on to what the seller's asking price is? It's interesting that the trainer doesn't want you to talk to the owner directly.

[columbus]

To find a high quality 5 yo untouched is a bit unusual as it is a luxury to keep horses so long but I would be very excited (in my youth) to find one, to have the ability to recognize the talent on sight is unusual but there are many who can "see" the elements that make an excellent prospect, to have the ability to take that horse and develop it to its potential is sadly more and more uncommon. For that horse to be 20k and still be a deal is also unusual but none of this is impossible.

Were I you I would assume the horse is worth 20K now and worth more if developed. I have a 20K unstarted 3yo and she will likely stay unstarted until she has a foal or two...perhaps being backed somewhere in there if it works out but no serious training. This is what happened with her mother. She was backed barely at late four and now started seriously at 8 and she is handling work so easily and with great enthusiasm. She has the strength to sit and work. Leaving horses past 4 to be worked is uncommon because we have to move horses to breed horses. People who buy horses don't want to wait, we are being influenced buy the drive to compete 4yos and move them up fast. Marketing wise it is the right thing to do. This horse has had the time to mature. Sure he could be a screwball but to assume he is a screwball is stinkin' thinkin'.

I know a lot of people who have bred a very nice horse but then hadn't a clue how to market so they still own a great horse. That doesn't mean they don't KNOW they have a great horse or are desperate to sell. Respect the owner and approach them about a very nice horse. Perhaps you can make a deal to start the horse and have right of first refusal after 3 months at 20k. Respect the owner...respect the horse. PatO

[merrygoround]

So! Having followed all of this. I'll put my two cents in (probably not even worth that in today's economy).

Yes there are horses worth 20K out there unstarted, because there are breeders out there who just want to breed "that" mare, and by the time the mission is accomplished they are no longer capable of realizing their dream.

The other point is also to be well taken. Some of those babies have been rejected by knowledgeable folks, because of physical problems.. So walk with care. You can gamble with $1k but at $20 you are dealing with serious pain.

Good luck & walk with care.

[shawneeAcres]

breeder send me a five year old to ride and market for her. The horse was a nicely bred warmblood (Holsteiner) with top bloodlines. She wanted $20K. He had been started VERY LIGHTLY and not too correctly under saddle. I took the horse and worked with him, and let her know I felt the hrose was WORTH the asking price, but needed more work for the average person to want him at that price. I worked the horse for one year, he subsequently sold for her asking price, yes she now had more in him, but was able then to get what she had wanted for him. However, had he been started as a 3 - 4 year old she could have gotten more than her $20K as a five year old in my opinion and the horse would have been well worth it. He is now competing and winning in combined training, one year after selling.

[Ambrey]

I do know that going out and inspecting ten horses that are for sale in your price range helps (physically looking at at least ten horses) is a very good way to refine your eye.

We looked at so many horses, and ended up getting the second horse we looked at :) We saw him again at the end and realized he was the one!

[vanheimrhorses]

yes read magnums post well, so the owner hasnt started the horse so you dont have to pay for the $1000 a month training FEE that would make him much more than $20K now, he made it to 5 no OCD pasture injury or other problems so you have almost guaranteed soundness, what is that worth........a lot..........
he isnt imported, shame on you, he should be more he is bred here in OUR country and is OUR horse not anothers rejected they do not sell off their best horses dear and have pulled the wool over USA buyers eyes for years, only when auctioned has it gotten a little more fair to catch a great one but then we are talking horses in 6 figures now
five figures

if you are picking on him so much why are you even interested in him, it is degrading and rude to go try to lower the price on an American breeders horse after they have invested five years of time effort and money into it, and he is not even making a profit after five years of raising this horse unless he raised around 10 horses to break even, so he is taking a loss at $20K do not think you will steal it for nothing as it costs $7200 a year to produce a nice horse just plain raising it unless raising a whole group of commercial foals to distribute the costs across the board.

sorry but I really take offense that "it is not even imported" our horses are just as good and some are finer than any horse in Europe, they just have Government funding and more foals then we do. all I can say is thank you MAGNUM AND TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER SHAME SHAME SHAME ON YOU

[kayandallie]

I think that you won't be able to tell how much you should offer for him till you see him. If he is really stupendous, then maybe you will need to pay that 20K.
So far as the go by the gut goes, I agree and disagree. I think you need to first figure out what it is you want from a horse (age, level of training, potential, temperament, looks, level of soundness, price limit, etc- this is not my original idea- I got it from an article off a horse sale website of Impulsion Unlimited). Write them down and keep them in front of you at all times. Then, look at horses who only meet those requirements (do not let yourself be swayed from your list). When you find one who meets, then listen to your heart.
Now, don't cheat and make your list to match your 5 year old. From what you've said, I'm not sure you have a clear idea of what you're after. (That's how I've gotten into trouble; that and having the wrong idea about what I'm after, actually, I could make a very long list of how I've gotten into trouble buying the wrong horses).

[Dirigo]

I didn't have time to read all the posts, but here's my opinion.....

#1. You could not GIVE me an unstarted 5yo... they are often set in their ways and will tell YOU how it's done, because they are no longer babies...
It's like teaching a 15yo child for the first time to sit down at a school bench, keep quiet and focused, when all he's done is "play".
Yes there's a possibility that it could work out for you, especially if the horse is willing, but it is and stays a gamble.
#2. I train horses for a living, and the amount of times I've started youngsters, who have not been started yet, even though I asked "what has this horse done?"...... is incredible.!!
I will say to the owner "the horse bucked the first time I got on", and THEN they tell me... he did that with the last person who tried to get on also...... (even though I asked specifically if someone else had tried, and they insisted that no one had)
#3 even though it is entirely possible for a horse to sit in a field at 5yo, it is usually due to family crisis or things as such... no one who's got any brains at all will leave a horse out in the field, just it gets to be worth more... It's quite possible, that something DID happen, and they just wanted to let some time go by. This horse is now a juvenile at full strength!! IF that strength is used against you, it could be scary!
Good luck if you decide on him! (but these are my two cents)

[ESG]

if you are picking on him so much why are you even interested in him, it is degrading and rude to go try to lower the price on an American breeders horse after they have invested five years of time effort and money into it, and he is not even making a profit after five years of raising this horse unless he raised around 10 horses to break even, so he is taking a loss at $20K do not think you will steal it for nothing as it costs $7200 a year to produce a nice horse just plain raising it unless raising a whole group of commercial foals to distribute the costs across the board.

Um, perhaps you missed it, but the owner isn't the breeder.

sorry but I really take offense that "it is not even imported" our horses are just as good and some are finer than any horse in Europe, they just have Government funding and more foals then we do. [

Wrong. The Europeans have centuries of selective breeding on their side. We cannot, as yet, compete with them in terms of breeding quality warmbloods. And if you're going to factor in every cost associated with raising a horse to maturity, better not forget that lil ole import fee.

all I can say is thank you MAGNUM AND TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER SHAME SHAME SHAME ON YOU

No. Shame on you for trying to rip the OP a new one. She didn't start a snarkfest on breeders, or how much this horse isn't worth - she asked for opinions on offers for an unstarted 5 year old. And honestly, if a breeder had an unstarted 5 year old hanging around, I'm sure you'd be among those to question why, also.

[camohn]

Just be sure the offer you may make includes pending a through PPE to make sure there isn't an undisclosed physical reason the horse is not started at 5.

[Lambie Boat]

Dirigo, some late unstarted horses sure can be set in their ways, but in my experience, they can be awfully bored without a job, and are pretty eager students. I have 3 starting late, that are set in bone and body, have matured considerably without doing anything more than eating and pooping, and are taking to their training quicker than any 2 or 3 year old I've ever started. Yes, the initial one -time early conversation letting them know their world is changing can be challenging, but I haven't hit any real concrete resistance or blowback. In fact, I thought it would be much harder than it has been. knock wood.

I hope the OP can get the horse she lusts after, for a reasonable price and all will be well in the world. sounds like a nice horse to me.

[slantedhorse]

In my opinion, a five year old is much harder to start than a 3-4 year old. There's a big difference and I'm not sure they catch up. They've had their way too long in life to want to be ridden.

I've also been sold a 5 yr old - I was told they hadn't tried to start it. Later I found out that they had tried and it didn't go well. I didn't have huge problems with her but there were "quirks".

Just my opinion. Stay away from the unbroke 5 year old - especially at a high price!

[camohn]

FWIW I have started 2 5 YOs late. One was my own...she was started late due to a foot injury that took a long time to heal. She was a PIA but I think a lot of her resistance was unfortunately just her personality. Se was very easy with the initial backing and easy stuff. Once it became real work she got creative in evasions. The other I bought as a supposed unstarted 5 YO. Reason given was the owner had too many horses/not enough time/could not afford to send her out to be started. Later it turned out she HAD been sent out to a trainer and sent back home because she was dangerous/crazy. I guess the owner felt it would be best to try and sell her as unstarted. I started that mare all over from scratch thinking she knew nothing. Someone saw me working with her. (We were still at a boarding stable at this point/did not have our farm here yet). This person recognized her and said "that is (we shall call her Dingbat). She's crazy". I said no....she is just nervous because she is green. Other person said "No...she is crazy. She is was at the last barn I was at for training. They sent her home."

[Bamgone]

Were I you I would assume the horse is worth 20K now and worth more if developed. I have a People who buy horses don't want to wait, we are being influenced buy the drive to compete 4yos and move them up fast. Marketing wise it is the right thing to do. This horse has had the time to mature. Sure he could be a screwball but to assume he is a screwball is stinkin' thinkin'.

I know a lot of people who have bred a very nice horse but then hadn't a clue how to market so they still own a great horse. That doesn't mean they don't KNOW they have a great horse or are desperate to sell. Respect the owner and approach them about a very nice horse. Perhaps you can make a deal to start the horse and have right of first refusal after 3 months at 20k. Respect the owner...respect the horse. PatO

Very true, and that was my feeling as well. And the reason why I felt it wouldn't be too much trouble at 5, is because of the advice from Kiimke--in his book about starting the young horse, he felt that to go slow, was to go fast. He had a mare who was unstarted at 4 1/2 and he felt she made great progress--far faster and easier than if she were younger and more immature. And aren't Lips not started until 4? True, 5 is a world away from 4. That I know-it's almost apples and oranges.:winkgrin:

However, I just found a decent horse I want to check out. He will be 6 next month and was started in August, which means, horror of horrors, the breeder/owner waited until he was 5 years old, almost 5 1/2!:eek: And unless the wool is being pulled over my eyes, he was not a problem to start--a video of his 8th ride looks like he is ready to do a training level test!:cool:

But thanks to all you wise and wonderful COTH'ers I have my radar out looking for issues--did he get hurt? Nope, seller says she had too many other horses to deal with. Hmmmm. We shall see. I am really tempted to jump on a plane because he looks so dang broke and easy, albeit not a world beater, and best of all the price is right!;)

Before I move on, I need to check out my dream horse I am infatuated with--yeah too true. Sigh. It's SO tempting to do the young, unstarted horse project--especially since my last one was such an awesome success. I feel that working with youngsters is very rewarding and I have always throughly enjoyed the training process, although at times it can be long and grueling. And frustrating.

However, my most recent horse was the BEST horse I ever had in my lifetime--bar none--but again, maybe I just lucked out. And maybe because I had such a home run knock out, I feel I can do the same with this horse. Right? Yeah, and lightning doesn't strike twice. But who knows?

And I do have lots of help. I do OK as long as I don't allow my infatuation to cloud my good sense. I see the red and yellow flags ALL the time--crooked legs, straight hind ends, bad walks and canters. It's usually the well meaning folk who convince me NOT to heed those red flags that get me into trouble, so I am staying hyper aware and only asking super critical people for their opinions, lest they lead me astray and talk me into a horse I feel doubtful about and not 100% certain.

Which is why this thread has been SO helpful. Sure I have been spanked pretty hard on more than on ocassion,, but so what? I am a big girl!:) Far better to hear the non sugar coated truth a la slc's comments, than to only be told the rose colored scenarios.

Yeah, I know all too well the gamble. And the risk. And what can go wrong. And does go wrong and worse. They could go lame, or get injured, or colic and die before your goals of showing ever come to fruition. And by the time you invest all that money and time in training, you could have gone out and bought something already going! So is it worth it? Youngsters are NOT cheaper! Nope, you pay on the installment plan what you would have paid for, and received, right from day one.

Better to know all that can, and does go wrong going in, than to be a total Pollyanna. And yes, I know how much it costs to properly raise a youngster. Not discounting the labor and money involved. Nope, just interested in present market value as I want to be a informed and educated consumer.

Right now I am on the fence. Do I want to invest 3-6 months in training of an absoultely awesome youngster, or do I want something with some under saddle time, say 4-8 months who is ready to do training level? Gah!

[eurofoal]

breeder send me a five year old to ride and market for her. The horse was a nicely bred warmblood (Holsteiner) with top bloodlines. She wanted $20K. He had been started VERY LIGHTLY and not too correctly under saddle. I took the horse and worked with him, and let her know I felt the hrose was WORTH the asking price, but needed more work for the average person to want him at that price. I worked the horse for one year, he subsequently sold for her asking price, yes she now had more in him, but was able then to get what she had wanted for him. However, had he been started as a 3 - 4 year old she could have gotten more than her $20K as a five year old in my opinion and the horse would have been well worth it. He is now competing and winning in combined training, one year after selling.


Now, this is a quandry that I once wrote an article in Hunter & Sport Horse about... was she better off selling him for $12K before training, or 20K after training? I maintain that it essentially boils down to the same price. If she paid $700 a month for board and training (that would be a pretty good deal around here for full board and 5 day a week training), then she's $8400 further into the horse. She'd actually LOSE $400 in this scenario. As a breeder, I can say that I'm very, very motivated to sell an unstarted horse to it's new home, the sooner, the better.

In my opinion, there aren't many horses worth 20K as unstarted 5 yr olds. Yes, there are some, but not many. To me, that 1-2 years of being "behind" in training is relevant. I'd want good pedigree, good looks, good temperment, excellent movement, excellent x-rays. It's hard to get ALL the pieces in one pie, and that's what makes a good horse so expensive. Once you start riding them, a whole 'nother selection process winnows the good ones from the bad. You'll find out just how willing, how submissive, how talented the horse is... under tack. There are some beautiful but impossible to ride horses, and, of course the price reflects it. This horse's personality undersaddle is still unknown.

Since you haven't talked with the owner or had a vet out yet, it all seems a bit premature. This horse must have really caught your eye.

[Bamgone]

This horse must have really caught your eye.

That's an understatement!:winkgrin:

At the risk of repeating myself, I had a very similar reaction to my last horse--one brief look at him and that was it--all the rest of the investigation--checking out temperment, and character, movement, talent, soundness, his dam, getting a trainer's second opinion, the PPE--all of that only confirmed my initial reaction. The fact that no red flags, much less yellow ones appeared, heck it was green light all the way baby:yes: has greatly influenced me. Perhaps that is putting it mildly as well.

As far as the wisdom in waiting and putting training on a youngster, I would say from a purely economic perspective it is FAR wiser to sell them asap. As in utuero.:) Or as soon as they hit the ground. Or VERY soon as a weanling before your costs and inherent risks go up--more months of feed, farrier, vaccines, halters that are quickly outgrown, worming monthly under the age of one, regular care and handling, and for the colts their inevitable castration, all these add up. Big time.

And then there is the bad luck factor. There could be a career ending pasture injury, or a death from colic--a friend lost a 9 month old colt once.:no: It happens.

So if a youngster is unsold at 3, then I would feel as a breeder you could hold off until 3 1/2 to back them lightly, and then turn them out until 4 if they remain unsold, but really, in the long run, if boarding/training runs you 1K a month, it would make more sense to get less money upfront now, rather than pay on the installment plan.

The 20K badly started 5 year old was not a good business deal for the breeder. Yes, investing time/money was a GREAT idea and best for the horse's long term best interests, but purely from a economic perspective, it would have made more sense to take the loss and sell for less IMO.

[Dune]

To the OP, go check out the horse and see what you think. Also, just because you have a certain amount of $$ into a horse does NOT necessarily mean that the horse is worth that amount. :winkgrin: The sooner one understands that simple fact the less loss you'll need to take in the long run.

[staceyk]

Hi Bamgone,

Keep us posted! And get a video :-), you've definitely fostered a lively discussion.

[Ambrey]

I always say it's like houses- you're much better off financially buying the house someone else has remodeled, if you can find one you like. Doing it yourself will nickle and dime you into the poorhouse!

I got the "fixer" horse and am on my way to the poorhouse right now! But he fits perfectly with my decorating scheme ;)

[Bamgone]

Hi Bamgone,

Keep us posted! And get a video :-), you've definitely fostered a lively
discussion.

No kidding!:lol:

It's the age old dilemma.

Do I gamble on the super fancy and talented youngster? And hope and pray that not only does he/she stay sound long enough, or heck, even live long enough for that matter, for one to obtain one's riding goals?

And will I even enjoy riding that beautiful beast? Will we be a good match? Will I enjoy riding him/her? Will said horse even want to work? Or show?

I gambled and won last time. For a moment at least. Horse never made it to his 7th birthday.:cry::cry::cry:

Yeah, that really sucked.

A huge part of me doesn't want to go down that road again--life is way too short--and 'tis far better to pay out the nose NOW for the nice, compatible horse that you can enjoy and ride NOW, as opposed to one in which it will be at the very least a 2-3 month wait. Minimum. More like 6 months, and when you factor in those 6 months of training--at $500--that adds an extra 3K to your price. The 10K project becomes the 13K. Or the 14-15 tabula rasa is close to 20K by the time you can really go out and enjoy it. Would it not be better to simply spend 20K now, and get something you know you like and can ride?

Or take the gamble. And the risk. And get the super fancy horse for less money? Gah! It's a toss up really.

Which is why I have already decided that if my offer is not accepted should I chose to proceed forward--and provided no red or yellow flags present themselves and said horse passes PPE--(yep x-rays are non negotiable to rule out OCD)--with flying colors, I will abandon my quest and concentrate on proven youngsters. Those already under saddle at least 2 months and if not 4 years old, then coming 4, and forget about the totally unstarted 3 or 4 or 5 year old unless it is a SUPER deal, and I feel 100% confident that it is a good match, total green light all the way home run kinda deal.

Like my experience with finding a 2 year old. Now, that was more like an almost 2 year wait since he was so young, big and gangly. Really, don't want to do that again, however, I went that route when I was so dang frustrated finding a sound, sane, and not messed up in training if said horse was already under saddle. BTV? NO thanks! As luck would have it, upon hearing my frustrations a breeder suggested I buy a baby from a reputable breeder and invest in sweat equity, and not only did I take her advice, but it turned out to be my most successful horse purchases for me. Well, as far as talent. And personality. And movement. And beauty. Gah!

So the question has been: do I want to do it again? Should I? Part of me says yes, provided it all checks out, that I should simply go for it! The other part says no, go for instant gratification as not only is it instant, but it's a known entity.