Thanks for all input!

[sublimequine]

A big thanks to all who gave input without attacks, insults, or offense. Unfortunately you good folks were the minority. Back to your regularly scheduled program. :lol:

[amastrike]

I'm with you. I refuse to put a flash or crank on my horse, and the plain noseband I use is so loose it's essentially useless. Dressage is about willing harmony between horse and rider. There's nothing willing and harmonious about stifling your horse's ability to object. If my horse is trying to evade the bit, the problem is ME, not HIM.

I'd love to see what those top horses did if they were allowed to show their resistance. It would certainly be amusing to see some dressage queens (and kings) dethroned!

[sublimequine]

I'm with you. I refuse to put a flash or crank on my horse, and the plain noseband I use is so loose it's essentially useless. Dressage is about willing harmony between horse and rider. There's nothing willing and harmonious about stifling your horse's ability to object. If my horse is trying to evade the bit, the problem is ME, not HIM.

I'd love to see what those top horses did if they were allowed to show their resistance. It would certainly be amusing to see some dressage queens (and kings) dethroned!

Good to know I'm not the only one who feels like this! I'm also the same, either my mare goes in a plain noseband that is extremely loose, or no noseband at all.

[Ambrey]

I think some people would say that Dressage today is the antethesis of what Dressage is all about ;)

[sublimequine]

I think some people would say that Dressage today is the antethesis of what Dressage is all about ;)

I never thought of it that way.. but you're right! :lol::lol::lol:

[Auventera Two]

I think some people would say that Dressage today is the antethesis of what Dressage is all about ;)

Yep, pretty much. That's why I got out of it. There are a few horses and riders I really admire but for the most part I don't watch it. I used to get Dressage Today but found that the issues would go in the trash after a quick scim. I guess that was my clue that my heart wasn't in it anymore. I use dressage principles with my horses and love the concept of the training scale, but that's as far as it goes.

I'm with you sublime, but watch out, the vultures shall now swoop in and tear our carcasses assunder. :lol:

I bet if they got rid of all the cranking that goes on in the top levels, we'd see a lot more run aways. But that's just my personal theory of course. :cool:

[sublimequine]

Yep, pretty much. That's why I got out of it. There are a few horses and riders I really admire but for the most part I don't watch it. I used to get Dressage Today but found that the issues would go in the trash after a quick scim. I guess that was my clue that my heart wasn't in it anymore. I use dressage principles with my horses and love the concept of the training scale, but that's as far as it goes.

I'm with you sublime, but watch out, the vultures shall now swoop in and tear our carcasses assunder. :lol:

I bet if they got rid of all the cranking that goes on in the top levels, we'd see a lot more run aways. But that's just my personal theory of course. :cool:

I know, I'm kind of waiting for the hardcore folks to come in and rip me to shreds for asking... hopefully not. :uhoh:

[amastrike]

You can borrow one of my flame suits ;). The one thing that always annoyed me about Lisa Wilcox's critique column in Dressage Today (totally blanking one what the column is called) is that if a horse didn't have a flash, she said the horse needed one to help "stabilize the bit." Right. My bit is apparently very unstable, and my horse has yet to spontaneously combust, so...

[sublimequine]

You can borrow one of my flame suits ;). The one thing that always annoyed me about Lisa Wilcox's critique column in Dressage Today (totally blanking one what the column is called) is that if a horse didn't have a flash, she said the horse needed one to help "stabilize the bit." Right. My bit is apparently very unstable, and my horse has yet to spontaneously combust, so...

I kind of wondered about that as well. I've never ridden in a flash, and occasionally I do ride with a bit (big hackamore fan), and I've never had problems with instability with the bit... :confused:

[amastrike]

I guess if your hands move constantly (be it intentional or not), the bit is going to do a lot of moving. Maybe the flash is to disguise bad hands? (Which is not to say that my hands are amazing, of course.)

[sublimequine]

I guess if your hands move constantly (be it intentional or not), the bit is going to do a lot of moving. Maybe the flash is to disguise bad hands? (Which is not to say that my hands are amazing, of course.)

But you'd think in Dressage, especially in levels where a flash is required, bad hands would NEVER be present.. right? :eek:

[Eclectic Horseman]

Do a search on this forum. This issue has been beaten to death.

You can also educate yourself by reading the classical dressage texts. Or if you don't want to read, look at the pictures in any book about the Spanish Riding School. All of the young horses in training wear a dropped noseband until they go into the double bridle.

So what on earth is wrong with those SRS people, anyway? I'm sure that you all know much more about training horses than they do.:lol:

[amastrike]

I'm sure they are infinitely more knowledgeable than I am... but it doesn't make them infallible.

[Speedy]

I think there are people out there who use them because everyone else in their barn does...it's probably just 'standard equipment' to these folks, who are accustomed to seeing them everyday. The same thing is true of polo wraps and boots.

[sublimequine]

Do a search on this forum. This issue has been beaten to death.

You can also educate yourself by reading the classical dressage texts. Or if you don't want to read, look at the pictures in any book about the Spanish Riding School. All of the young horses in training wear a dropped noseband until they go into the double bridle.

So what on earth is wrong with those SRS people, anyway? I'm sure that you all know much more about training horses than they do.:lol:

You still didn't answer WHY it is used. And I never said I knew more about training than them. In the first like 2 sentences I said I was no expert. That's why I came here, to ask folks who have a better idea on the subject.

I also already said the post was not meant to incite anything. If you're going to try and be nasty, please don't even bother. I don't want this to turn into a flamefest.

[sublimequine]

I think there are people out there who use them because everyone else in their barn does...it's probably just 'standard equipment' to these folks, who are accustomed to seeing them everyday. The same thing is true of polo wraps and boots.

So you think it's maybe more just 'tradition' than anything else?

[Ambrey]

You can borrow one of my flame suits ;). The one thing that always annoyed me about Lisa Wilcox's critique column in Dressage Today (totally blanking one what the column is called) is that if a horse didn't have a flash, she said the horse needed one to help "stabilize the bit." Right. My bit is apparently very unstable, and my horse has yet to spontaneously combust, so...

She has been replaced by Arthur Kottas, whose column I enjoy :)

[Eclectic Horseman]

You still didn't answer WHY it is used. And I never said I knew more about training than them. In the first like 2 sentences I said I was no expert. That's why I came here, to ask folks who have a better idea on the subject.

I also already said the post was not meant to incite anything. If you're going to try and be nasty, please don't even bother. I don't want this to turn into a flamefest.


As I said, you can do a search.

The primary reason for using a flash or dropped noseband is to prevent the young horse from developing bit evasions, including opening the mouth, crossing the jaws, and putting the tongue over the bit. All young horses at one point or another will seek to evade the bit as the work gets harder for them. It is the trainer's job to prevent these evasions from becoming a habitual response. Once the evasion becomes a habit, it is almost impossible to eliminate. So some of the cranked shut nosebands that you see come from riders trying to correct a bad habit that came about because the horse was improperly trained. Sometimes of course, it is also used to try to cover up bad riding. In neither case is it successful as you have noticed.

Lisa Wilcox who was trained by an SRS instructor says she uses the flash to help keep the bit steady in the young horse's mouth so that there will be less movement and less bouncing around on the bars of the mouth. I am sure that is also one of the reasons if not the reason that the SRS uses them.

For more info--there have been numerous threads on exactly this same subject. Do a search.

[amastrike]

I think there are people out there who use them because everyone else in their barn does...it's probably just 'standard equipment' to these folks, who are accustomed to seeing them everyday. The same thing is true of polo wraps and boots.

It's sad that people would actually do that.. It's fun to be involved with your horse and make decisions and LEARN. Flash/cranks are standard equipment for dressage... I bought my dressage bridle in pieces so I could get what I wanted (#1. NO flash/crank).

[Ambrey]

So what on earth is wrong with those SRS people, anyway? I'm sure that you all know much more about training horses than they do.:lol:

Is a dropped noseband equivalent to a crank+flash? I'd think not.

[sublimequine]

As I said, you can do a search.

The primary reason for using a flash or dropped noseband is to prevent the young horse from developing bit evasions, including opening the mouth, crossing the jaws, and putting the tongue over the bit.

I've seen many young horses started, that didn't develop any of these issues, and were never even introduced to a noseband at all. If the bridle is adjusted properly, and the bit is one suited to the shape of the horse's mouth, and the rider has soft, sympathetic hands, don't you think even babies wouldn't do any of these things, as long as they weren't pushed too hard, too fast?

All young horses at one point or another will seek to evade the bit as the work gets harder for them. It is the trainer's job to prevent these evasions from becoming a habitual response. Once the evasion becomes a habit, it is almost impossible to eliminate. So some of the cranked shut nosebands that you see come from riders trying to correct a bad habit that came about because the horse was improperly trained. Sometimes of course, it is also used to try to cover up bad riding. In neither case is it successful as you have noticed.

The flash or crank is also not needed absolutely to break these habits, and it's not as impossible as some folks think it is, in my own humble opinion. If people would have patience and give the horse TIME, a lot of things can be resolved without extra equipment. I've seen horses go from giant gaping mouths the whole ride to no gnawing at all, without any additional nosebands being used. Sure it wouldn't take as long if you use a flash and physically force the horse to keep the mouth closed, but if it can be done in a more sympathetic and kinder manner, why wouldn't it be? I've always been under the impression Dressage was about taking time and doing things very properly and methodically. I think that kinda correlates here.. I think. :confused:

And yeah, I've gotten your suggestion for a search like 3 times now. I've frequented this board for quite awhile now, although I rarely post. There's been threads on this before, but most of the time they just turn into a fight and there's no consensus at the conclusion of the thread. That's why I decided to try it for myself.. no fights this time. ;)

[Eclectic Horseman]

Is a dropped noseband equivalent to a crank+flash? I'd think not.


A dropped noseband is equivalent to a flash noseband. It goes under the bit and buckles in back. It is a little less attractive than a flash noseband.

The crank noseband is a relatively new phenomenon. Despite the terrible name "crank" all it really does is incorporate a piece of padding behind the buckle. In fact, because of the design, it is often harder to get a crank noseband as tight as a regular noseband because it is limited by the padding.

[sublimequine]

A dropped noseband is equivalent to a flash noseband. It goes under the bit and buckles in back. It is a little less attractive than a flash noseband.

The crank noseband is a relatively new phenomenon. Despite the terrible name "crank" all it really does is incorporate a piece of padding behind the buckle. In fact, because of the design, it is often harder to get a crank noseband as tight as a regular noseband because it is limited by the padding.

I actually think drop nosebands look really attractive on some horses (function aside, obviously). But they do make a long head look even longer, I think. :lol:

[Eclectic Horseman]

I've seen many young horses started, that didn't develop any of these issues, and were never even introduced to a noseband at all. If the bridle is adjusted properly, and the bit is one suited to the shape of the horse's mouth, and the rider has soft, sympathetic hands, don't you think even babies wouldn't do any of these things, as long as they weren't pushed too hard, too fast?



The flash or crank is also not needed absolutely to break these habits, and it's not as impossible as some folks think it is, in my own humble opinion. If people would have patience and give the horse TIME, a lot of things can be resolved without extra equipment. I've seen horses go from giant gaping mouths the whole ride to no gnawing at all, without any additional nosebands being used. Sure it wouldn't take as long if you use a flash and physically force the horse to keep the mouth closed, but if it can be done in a more sympathetic and kinder manner, why wouldn't it be? I've always been under the impression Dressage was about taking time and doing things very properly and methodically. I think that kinda correlates here.. I think. :confused:

And yeah, I've gotten your suggestion for a search like 3 times now. I've frequented this board for quite awhile now, although I rarely post. There's been threads on this before, but most of the time they just turn into a fight and there's no consensus at the conclusion of the thread. That's why I decided to try it for myself.. no fights this time. ;)

I wonder why no one took your bait. Believe what you want to believe. You are a better rider/trainer than Alois Podhajsky and all the ODGs.

Your argumentative language, as quoted above is one of the reasons that such fights start. If you don't like nosebands DON'T USE THEM.

Sheesh.

[Ambrey]

The crank noseband is a relatively new phenomenon. Despite the terrible name "crank" all it really does is incorporate a piece of padding behind the buckle. In fact, because of the design, it is often harder to get a crank noseband as tight as a regular noseband because it is limited by the padding.

To answer the OP, this is why I got the crank- because my guy has an itchy sensitive bony face and I wanted the padding ;)

But I can't answer why they became the norm. I understand about the flash/drop and the bit stabilization, but it does seem as though many people use them to just keep the horse's mouth shut.

[amastrike]

I've seen horses go from giant gaping mouths the whole ride to no gnawing at all, without any additional nosebands being used.

:yes: My horse was extremely bad about opening his mouth. All. The. Time. Regardless of who was riding him. Yes, he still does at times, but it's gotten much much much better. It's the exception rather than the rule. And currently, I can fit my entire hand in in my noseband.

(Side note: Sometimes he opens his mouth when I have no contact, and it sort of looks like he's trying to adjust the bit in his mouth. I keep meaning to try raising/lowering the bit a hole, but I keep forgetting... oops.. but anyone think that might help? And yes, he does like the bit he's in. Loves it, actually... aurigan double-jointed dee. Big improvement over his old bit, a single-jointed three ring elevator.)

Eclectic, actually, a drop is NOT the equivalent of a flash. The design is very different. The only way a flash is even close to the equivalent of a drop is if you pull the regular noseband waaaay too far down. The drop is more effective than a flash because it is not angled like a flash. And no, a crank is not just like a regular noseband. The design is completely different. Cranks use pulley action to get the noseband much tighter than you could ever accomplish with a normal noseband. All the padding does is trick you into thinking it's not tight. ETA: Of course, you don't *have* to pull it that tight, but with the crank, you have the option.

[sublimequine]

I wonder why no one took your bait. Believe what you want to believe. You are a better rider/trainer than Alois Podhajsky and all the ODGs.

Your argumentative language, as quoted above is one of the reasons that such fights start. If you don't like nosebands DON'T USE THEM.

Sheesh.

Believe what you want to believe. If you don't want to help, I'll just hope another knowledgable Dressage person can come in and enlighten me on the subject. Take your own advice I guess, and if you don't like my post, then don't respond.

I don't understand why flashes and cranks are so prominant in Dressage, because as I was trying to give examples of, they aren't required pieces of equipment, and you'd think a really well-trained top-level Dressage horse wouldn't need help just keeping its mouth closed. THat's why I'm wondering why it's still used so much? I'm assuming there's a reason I'm missing, because I DON'T know that much about Dressage. That's the entire point of my thread.

But if you don't want to believe that's my point, that's fine. Like I said, I'm not going to allow this to become a fight. I would just really like someone to give me the scoop on something I don't know about and can't seem to get answers on without pissing someone off! :lol:

[sublimequine]

To answer the OP, this is why I got the crank- because my guy has an itchy sensitive bony face and I wanted the padding ;)

But I can't answer why they became the norm. I understand about the flash/drop and the bit stabilization, but it does seem as though many people use them to just keep the horse's mouth shut.

Thanks for understanding my question! I kinda feel like I'm talking a foreign language here. :eek:

[Auventera Two]

The primary reason for using a flash or dropped noseband is to prevent the young horse from developing bit evasions, including opening the mouth, crossing the jaws, and putting the tongue over the bit. All young horses at one point or another will seek to evade the bit as the work gets harder for them.

Why do you feel that dressage horses are more prone to this than other types of horses? I don't believe it's customary for ropers, reiners, hunters, pleasure horses, etc. to be fitted with a crank or flash. Often those babies are started in the snaffle or bosal.

So if the crank or flash were to cure evasion, then (1) either horses in other disciplines don't ever evade the bit, (2) their riders see no reason to discourage or cure the evasion, or (3) dressage horses are more prone to evasion. And then the next appropriate question would be "why?"

My thoughts are that dressage horses ARE more likely to want to evade the bit, because as was noted in the thread on starting youngsters in western saddles, people want to establish firm contact immediately on a baby. I don't know of any other discipline that climbs on a 3 year old, takes ahold of its mouth, puts their legs on and drives the horse forward into the hand. Clearly, babies started in dressage are MUCH more like to evade the bit, when ridden this way. So my thoughts are that dressage horses are ridden in cranks and flashes to attempt to fix the problem that was created right away when the horse was a baby, or at least when he was being trained for dressage.

One poster there said she doesn't want a cowboy starting her babies because it's much harder to fix the problems later. (And this was in regard to the cowboy not starting the baby with bit contact.)

Some riding styles like Saddleseat, Park Pleasure, etc. require the horse to accept a firm contact on the bit but those horses are not typically ridden or shown in cranks or flashes. So how are these horses trained differently that doesn't persuade them to develop bit evasions? Honest question here.

I'm not against bit contact. The kind of riding I do lets me go on a loose rein 99% of the time. But some disciplines don't, and I see no problem with it. In this picture: http://www.saddlebredshowcase.com/mercersprings/SL7D3350.jpg the horse is ridden on a short rein with a very definite contact but the mouth isn't shut with a flash or crank. (This horse is Watch Out Now. Gosh I love that horse! :D). I too have a bit of a hard time understanding this crank and flash obsession in the dressage world.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I don't understand why flashes and cranks are so prominant in Dressage, because as I was trying to give examples of, they aren't required pieces of equipment, and you'd think a really well-trained top-level Dressage horse wouldn't need help just keeping its mouth closed.


They don't. A fully trained horse is ridden in a double bridle.

[Auventera Two]

A fully trained horse is ridden in a double bridle.

...............with a crank noseband. :lol:

[amastrike]

They don't. A fully trained horse is ridden in a double bridle.

I don't understand the "they don't" part of this comment... could you please elaborate?

[Rhiannonjk]

I use a crank for the extra padding.

... and I'm not touching the flash discussion with a 10' pole.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I don't understand the "they don't" part of this comment... could you please elaborate?

They don't need to have their mouths tied shut. I was responding to the other post who asked why fully trained dressage horses needed to have their mouths tied shut. They don't.

[Auventera Two]

They don't need to have their mouths tied shut. I was responding to the other post who asked why fully trained dressage horses needed to have their mouths tied shut. They don't.

Then why are they?

And now Electric Horseman - back to you!! :lol:

[sublimequine]

They don't need to have their mouths tied shut. I was responding to the other post who asked why fully trained dressage horses needed to have their mouths tied shut. They don't.

I've seen quite a few upper level horses with crank nosebands on.. and I THINK Olympic Dressage horses are also fitted with a crank, but I could be wrong. And often times you can see their jaws going even under the crank, so I'd assume the mouth would be open if the crank was removed. That's what I was referring to.

Rhi; I like the extra padding of cranks too, if I ever used a Dressage bridle. :) And it's fine you don't want to address the flash thing.. it seems to be even more anger-inciting or whatever than I originally thought. :eek::eek::eek:

[Eclectic Horseman]

Then why are they?

And now Electric Horseman - back to you!! :lol:

They aren't. You don't use a flash or dropped noseband on a double bridle. That's illegal.


As I previously explained, a crank noseband usually cannot be tightened as much as a regular noseband because of the padding. People like them because the padding goes all the way around the noseband. It gives a nice even look and the padding stops rubs on the jawbones.

I'm sick of repeating myself. You guys can troll along on your own.

[amastrike]

http://sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php#crank
Yes, cranks are LESS harsh than regular nosebands. Riiiight.


ETA: If you like the wide, padded noseband, this is the noseband I got for my bridle: here (http://www.eqtack.com/catalog/product_info.php?pName=201bw-padded-78-noseband&cName=dressage-tack-nosebands)
Wide, padded, no flash, no crank. I'm a happy camper!

[sublimequine]

http://sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php#crank
Yes, cranks are LESS harsh than regular nosebands. Riiiight.

I forgot about that site! And the writer is a big Dressage rider, I think. Thanks for the info. :)

[amastrike]

I love that site! I don't agree with everything she says, but she makes some excellent points. She always falls on the side of doing less, which I like.

[sublimequine]

I love that site! I don't agree with everything she says, but she makes some excellent points. She always falls on the side of doing less, which I like.

I just like that she explains the purpose of basically all the tack out there. Like you said, she's kinda biased and you have to pick through the opinions versus fact, but it's really informative. I'll have to read up on the nosebands part. :yes:

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

A crank closure simply means that the leather loops around and so when it is closed the pressure is distributed more evenly and hence gentler on the horse, has nothing to do with "cranking" the mouth shut, and a flash keeps the bit kindly in place, as does a dropped noseband, when adjusted properly.

The German FN Magazine St. Georg this month has a big article on why bridles are necessary for good riding. I haven't gotten my hands on it yet.

[goeslikestink]

look here ----- pics and explainations
www.yourhorse.co.uk/nav?page=yourhorse.contentspage&view_resource=4999597

[sublimequine]

look here ----- pics and explainations
www.yourhorse.co.uk/nav?page=yourhorse.contentspage&view_resource=4999597

It's not that I don't know the purpose of these nosebands, it's that I don't understand why an upper level Dressage horse, or really any trained Dressage horse, would need these nosebands to keep their mouths closed, as the link you provided also stated is what the flash and crank are primarily for. :confused:

[canticle]

You don't NEED nosebands at all. There's just the problem of the rules requiring them. :no:

[sublimequine]

You don't NEED nosebands at all. There's just the problem of the rules requiring them. :no:

So do you think most folks use them simply because they are required by the rules to show in? Why do you think the rules require them?

I don't know anything about Dressage rules, so excuse any stupid questions here. :lol:

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

It's not that I don't know the purpose of these nosebands, it's that I don't understand why an upper level Dressage horse, or really any trained Dressage horse, would need these nosebands to keep their mouths closed, as the link you provided also stated is what the flash and crank are primarily for. :confused:

IMHO, that is like saying "why do you tie your shoe laces? You've been able to walk for years."

[sublimequine]

IMHO, that is like saying "why do you tie your shoe laces? You've been able to walk for years."

I don't get your analogy. Explain? :lol:

[mjhco]

I suggest not feeding the troll.

[Petstorejunkie]

A regular noseband offers some stability (like a hunter noseband) some folks i know use a crank because it's padded all around, they dont latch it tight. I hate drops and flashes. IMHO if your horse is evading you, well YOU are doing something wrong.
It's traditional to have a flash on your dressage bridle. in fact they are next to impossible to find without them... ask me how i know :uhoh:
My horse prefers his bridle to be very lightweight. I have custom made his crown peice with ear relief, and he uses a drop noseband (because it's lighter) at hunter height. no throat latch. Happy horsie.

[Donella]

The primary reason for using a flash or dropped noseband is to prevent the young horse from developing bit evasions, including opening the mouth, crossing the jaws, and putting the tongue over the bit. All young horses at one point or another will seek to evade the bit as the work gets harder for them

Yup, and I think alot of people who do not train horses or have alot of experience are really quick to foo foo it simply because it doesn't look "at one with the horse" or whatever.

The simple fact of the matter is that every horse has some issue that must be worked through. Sometimes aids are not needed but sometimes they are. I am training a friesian mare right now who's very being is "on the forhand". She doesn't like to work hard and in order to avoid listening to my half halts when the work gets hard (ie canter!) she will open her mouth so as to gain leverage to pull and evade the rein aid I am giving. I rode her in a normal snaffle with the flash done up just comfortably when both my trainers told me to get a crank on there so she CANT open her mouth to evade.

Guess what..it worked and I am back in a normal cavesson and the problem has passed. It was a temporary aid to help me get the message through to an animal that was determined to out muscle me.

Anyways..I am not saying all horses need this. I have started a number of youngsters and never had to use one before, but I will no longer frown on the use of these things if they are warranted. Because..they sometimes are!

IMHO if your horse is evading you, well YOU are doing something wrong.

LOOOOL yeah ok. Wouldnt it be a perfect world if all horses had superb rideability built in. But last time I checked they are still evaluating breeding animals for it so it clearly is something that is desired but definately not always there.

[mg]

It's traditional to have a flash on your dressage bridle. in fact they are next to impossible to find without them... ask me how i know :uhoh:

I just recently started dressage with my pony who I started hj, so I was riding him in his plain caveson bridle. When I went to try to find a dressage bridle, I couldn't find many at ALL without flashes. The ones that I did find were way out of my price range. Alas, I ended up getting a bridle with a flash and just buckling the flash loosely.

[sublimequine]

A regular noseband offers some stability (like a hunter noseband) some folks i know use a crank because it's padded all around, they dont latch it tight. I hate drops and flashes. IMHO if your horse is evading you, well YOU are doing something wrong.
It's traditional to have a flash on your dressage bridle. in fact they are next to impossible to find without them... ask me how i know
My horse prefers his bridle to be very lightweight. I have custom made his crown peice with ear relief, and he uses a drop noseband (because it's lighter) at hunter height. no throat latch. Happy horsie.

That's always what I thought. So that's why I'm confused. But it sounds like it's perhaps more tradition than anything.. :confused:

Yup, and I think alot of people who do not train horses or have alot of experience are really quick to foo foo it simply because it doesn't look "at one with the horse" or whatever.

The simple fact of the matter is that every horse has some issue that must be worked through. Sometimes aids are not needed but sometimes they are. I am training a friesian mare right now who's very being is "on the forhand". She doesn't like to work hard and in order to avoid listening to my half halts when the work gets hard (ie canter!) she will open her mouth so as to gain leverage to pull and evade the rein aid I am giving. I rode her in a normal snaffle with the flash done up just comfortably when both my trainers told me to get a crank on there so she CANT open her mouth to evade.

Guess what..it worked and I am back in a normal cavesson and the problem has passed. It was a temporary aid to help me get the message through to an animal that was determined to out muscle me.

Anyways..I am not saying all horses need this. I have started a number of youngsters and never had to use one before, but I will no longer frown on the use of these things if they are warranted. Because..they sometimes are!

I can kind of understand the use of flashes/cranks (I almost said "franks" :lol: ) for remedial use like you referred to, but that still leaves the question of using them on upper level horses, who are well past remedial work. Why would they still need it, if it's something to keep a horse from evading the bit?

[sublimequine]

I just recently started dressage with my pony who I started hj, so I was riding him in his plain caveson bridle. When I went to try to find a dressage bridle, I couldn't find many at ALL without flashes. The ones that I did find were way out of my price range. Alas, I ended up getting a bridle with a flash and just buckling the flash loosely.

You could also buy a crank noseband, and just not tighten it up too much. :)

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

I don't get your analogy. Explain? :lol:

Well, you wouldn't leave your shoes all lose either although you could walk in them (and having mastered walking in shoes), so why would you not have your tack in place and secured properly even when you can manage your horse without it.

And I don't get the "Severity" argument about crank nosebands at all, just because you possibly *could* pull it tighter doesn't mean anyone would. Just because you *could* give your horse bloody sides with your spurs doesn't mean you will etc.

[sublimequine]

Well, you wouldn't leave your shoes all lose either although you could walk in them (and having mastered walking in shoes), so why would you not have your tack in place and secured properly even when you can manage your horse without it.

And I don't get the "Severity" argument about crank nosebands at all, just because you possibly *could* pull it tighter doesn't mean anyone would. Just because you *could* give your horse bloody sides with your spurs doesn't mean you will etc.

So are you going with the tradition idea then? It's really still not clear. I mean, having your shoes tied is neccessary to walk because you'll fall if you don't tie them. Flashes and cranks aren't neccessary, and Dressage technically and ideally can be executed successfully without them, especially in the upper levels like I've been wondering about the most.

[canticle]

So do you think most folks use them simply because they are required by the rules to show in? Why do you think the rules require them?

I don't know anything about Dressage rules, so excuse any stupid questions here. :lol:
I think it's a combination of tradition and it being a convenient way of keeping the horse's mouth shut.

No, nosebands are not necessary. Not in dressage at least. It's not like jumping or a high impact event where the bit is likely to move around.

I think a regular noseband (not tight) can be a good reminder, even though it is not necessary. But anything more than that is a shortcut imo. Physically tying the horse's mouth shut is just wrong. The horse should always have the option to evade. The whole point of dressage is that he chooses not to.

[sublimequine]

I think it's a combination of tradition and it being a convenient way of keeping the horse's mouth shut.

No, nosebands are not necessary. Not in dressage at least. It's not like jumping or a high impact event where the bit is likely to move around.

I think a regular noseband (not tight) can be a good reminder, even though it is not necessary. But anything more than that is a shortcut imo. Physically tying the horse's mouth shut is just wrong. The horse should always have the option to evade. The whole point of dressage is that he chooses not to.

I agree completely, that's how I feel as well. THAT'S where my confusion is stemming from. :)

[amastrike]

Physically tying the horse's mouth shut is just wrong. The horse should always have the option to evade. The whole point of dressage is that he chooses not to.

THANK YOU! That is EXACTLY how I feel. In a way, I don't mind when my horse resists me--that means he *can* resist, which means when he does what I want, he's choosing to do it, which is exactly what I want.

[twofatponies]

http://sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php#crank
Yes, cranks are LESS harsh than regular nosebands. Riiiight.


ETA: If you like the wide, padded noseband, this is the noseband I got for my bridle: here (http://www.eqtack.com/catalog/product_info.php?pName=201bw-padded-78-noseband&cName=dressage-tack-nosebands)
Wide, padded, no flash, no crank. I'm a happy camper!

I was going to suggest exactly that site. It's a very interesting one.

[twofatponies]

Why would they still need it, if it's something to keep a horse from evading the bit?

I think it's just tradition - same reason you wear a certain style of hat or jacket for each discipline, and use a certain saddle. You could do technically do high level dressage in a western saddle or portuguese saddle or wearing blue jeans or whatever, but each discipline has customs and traditions and requirements for the show ring, and those traditions are slow to change, even when they are not really necessary.:)

[sublimequine]

I think it's just tradition - same reason you wear a certain style of hat or jacket for each discipline, and use a certain saddle. You could do technically do high level dressage in a western saddle or portuguese saddle or wearing blue jeans or whatever, but each discipline has customs and traditions and requirements for the show ring, and those traditions are slow to change, even when they are not really necessary.:)

Good explanation. Thank you. :):yes::yes:

[Tuckertoo]

Ok...I have a legitimate question. You all may laugh me out of this board, whatever...I'll go back home to eventing! :D

Anyway. Everyone says when a horse opens his/her mouth that they are evading. I've also heard that chewing the bit is good. I know they are not the same. Is chewing the bit actually good? I understand that just opening and leaning gives the horse more leverage against the rider, but chewing, what does it mean?

I ask because I've been thinking a lot lately about how I use my flash but it's pointless. My horse constantly chews by opening and shutting his mouth but it's not like it's evasive. In fact, he's going better now than he ever has and is as light as he's ever been. I never get points marked off for it and I've never had a negative comment about it on a test from a judge (and I've watched my tests on video and he's chewing away.) So, what does his chewing mean? Do you think it's just his habit (of which he has a lot of weird ones:lol:)? I mean, I might as well not ride with the flash, since it's not keeping his mouth shut and there's really no purpose.

Pretty please don't be mean to me:)

[sublimequine]

Pretty please don't be mean to me:)

Did the first few pages of this thread scare you? I know it would scare me. Sheeeeeeesh! :lol:

[ESG]

Is a dropped noseband equivalent to a crank+flash? I'd think not.

First of all, you need to properly categorize. Drops and flashes are polar opposites of a crank.

Drops and flashes are, when properly adjusted, no more than a deterrent to a horse opening its mouth to avoid the bit. They do not force the mouth closed, but discourage the gaping that's not uncommon as a young horse learns to accept connection. In short, it's easier to prevent this problem, than to try to fix it later. ;)

A crank is far more severe, as it prevents almost any movement of the horse's jaw. I dislike cranks for that reason, and see them as an indication that there's a hole in the training somewhere.

JMO. :cool:

[ESG]

I've seen quite a few upper level horses with crank nosebands on..

Just curious - did you go up and check to see just how these were fitted, the ones you saw with cranks?

and I THINK Olympic Dressage horses are also fitted with a crank, but I could be wrong.

Some are, some aren't. And why are you attempting to debate things you aren't sure of? :confused:

And often times you can see their jaws going even under the crank, so I'd assume the mouth would be open if the crank was removed. That's what I was referring to.

Just because a crank is on a bridle, doesn't mean that it's adjusted so tight that the horse can't move its jaw. In fact, as others have stated, it's difficult (not to mention, totally undesirable!) to get a noseband so tight that the horse is unable to move its jaw at all.

And that's a hell of an ASS-U-MEption you're making. :rolleyes:

Rhi; I like the extra padding of cranks too, if I ever used a Dressage bridle. :) And it's fine you don't want to address the flash thing.. it seems to be even more anger-inciting or whatever than I originally thought. :eek::eek::eek:

I don't think it's the subject of flash/drop/crank that's "anger inciting"; it's your seemingly-innocent, trainwreck-inviting, troll-like discussion methods that get under peoples' skin. Do you go on the other forums and question their practices as well? :rolleyes:

[sublimequine]

ESG; If you had read the entire thread, you'd see we're having a good discussion here. If you don't want to partake in it, no one's forcing you to. And for the 4th or 5th time now, I've already said I DON'T know much about this stuff, which is why I'm asking in the first place. :no:

[ESG]

Um, I did read the entire thread. You're making a lot of assumptions, and then questioning theoretically why they're not correct. If you were truly interested in having a discussion, you'd take the myriad of good, informative answers you've already received to your questions, and be done with it. No sense in belaboring a point. There's just not that much to know about flashes, cranks and drops,; they're just piece of leather, after all. And since you've already been answered as to how each works and its correct application, I can only ASS-U-ME that you're not really interested in discussing, but trolling.

JMO. :cool:

[EqTrainer]

She has been replaced by Arthur Kottas, whose column I enjoy :)

not really on topic but I read his column the other day and I felt so sorry for him. Here ya go Arthur, here's some real fun stuff to comment on! He must be so sorry he got himself into this!

[sublimequine]

Um, I did read the entire thread. You're making a lot of assumptions, and then questioning theoretically why they're not correct. If you were truly interested in having a discussion, you'd take the myriad of good, informative answers you've already received to your questions, and be done with it. No sense in belaboring a point. There's just not that much to know about flashes, cranks and drops,; they're just piece of leather, after all. And since you've already been answered as to how each works and its correct application, I can only ASS-U-ME that you're not really interested in discussing, but trolling.

JMO. :cool:

Thanks for inferring I'm an 'ass' multiple times now. Like I said before to someone else, the only troll I see here is you. :)

I want folks' opinions and experiences on this. The more opinions and experiences I get from different people, the more I will know about the subject in general.

But you're going on the ignore list too anyways. Sheesh. If folks are just going to come in and be snotty, why even bother? If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all. :(

[ESG]

Thanks for inferring I'm an 'ass' multiple times now. Like I said before to someone else, the only troll I see here is you. :)

Actually, you did the inferring, and implied that I implied that you were an ass. Which, I did not. Don't use words you don't understand - makes you look silly.

I want folks' opinions and experiences on this. The more opinions and experiences I get from different people, the more I will know about the subject in general.

I doubt that. You didn't respond to any of the questions I asked in my post - just stated that I was being a troll. Nice way to get legitimate responses. But wait - I forgot - you don't really want legitimate responses,.............just an opportunity to keep whining, "But whyyyyy??????". :rolleyes:

But you're going on the ignore list too anyways.

Looks like I'll be in excellent company. Eclectic and others on the OP's ignore list - I think we should celebrate! :lol:

Sheesh. If folks are just going to come in and be snotty, why even bother? If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all. :(

Pot, meet kettle. :rolleyes:

[Dune]

Thanks for inferring I'm an 'ass' multiple times now. Like I said before to someone else, the only troll I see here is you. :)

I want folks' opinions and experiences on this. The more opinions and experiences I get from different people, the more I will know about the subject in general.

But you're going on the ignore list too anyways. Sheesh. If folks are just going to come in and be snotty, why even bother? If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all. :(



Actually...and now I'll probably be on your ignore list :lol:...you are rather difficult to help and don't listen to suggestions/answers very well. :no: This thread should've ended on the first page or so as this has been done to death before and I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for. If it's information, a search would've yielded that already. I'm posting merely to say that you canNOT tighten a crank noseband tight enough to keep a horse's mouth shut, it's simply not in the right location to do so. The addition of a flash can help somewhat, but horses can still open their mouths with both the crank and the flash, just not in a huge, gaping way. So your theory is incorrect. :yes:;)

[rabicon]

I started dressage about 3 months ago and my guy would open and evade the bit. The trainer I had at the time wanted me to get a crank (being new to this I didn't have a clue) so I bought one. I love the bridle and I love the crank but I don't crank it down. My is just tight enough that it holds it on but he still eats grass and treats with it. Now when my old trainer got hold of it she would crank it SO tight it would leave marks on him (the flash and the crank) when I took it off :eek: I felt so bad but didn't say anything. I didn't feel like he needed it that tight. It will never go that tight again. :cool:

To the comment on dressage is about lightness and horses wanting to do it and not evading blah blah blah, well its the same in every sport. Look at hunters they use kimberwickes (whatever proper spelling is) and pelhams when a true nice hunter should go in the less severe bit possible hence a o or d ring plain snaffle, but the kimberwickes and pelhams will beat out o rings anyday and also in hunters there are the martingales :confused: In which a nice easy going hunter shouldn't need a martingale. Just like in barrel racing they wear spurs, well if the horse truely wanted to run the barrel then they shouldn't need them to make the horse go faster the horse should just run faster because it loves its job. A horse may love its job and/or like it but it doesn't mean that there aren't lots of little contraptions to push the job on the horse more and make them do it correctly. I will also say that even if it is cranked to no end if the horse wants to be disobeident it can!!! Believe me my horse proved that with throwing his head up and counterbending and stepping on the arena fence and making oval like circles so just because the upper level riders have the horses mouthes cranked (which I'm not saying I agree with) it doesn't me the horse can't be an a$$ another way.;)

[sublimequine]

Actually...and now I'll probably be on your ignore list :lol:...you are rather difficult to help and don't listen to suggestions/answers very well. :no: This thread should've ended on the first page or so as this has been done to death before and I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for. If it's information, a search would've yielded that already. I'm posting merely to say that you canNOT tighten a crank noseband tight enough to keep a horse's mouth shut, it's simply not in the right location to do so. The addition of a flash can help somewhat, but horses can still open their mouths with both the crank and the flash, just not in a huge, gaping way. So your theory is incorrect. :yes:;)

FWIW, I only put folks who are throwing out insults on my ignore list. And like I just said as well, I want a lot of folks' opinions and experiences with this, so no, ending it at the first page wouldn't do it for me.

And it's really not the gaping vs slightly open mouth that I'm wondering about, it's why really top of the line Dressage horses would need reminders or aids to keep their mouths closed? I thought stuff like that was addressed way down in the earlier levels, so that's the stem of the confusion. I wouldn't think like an Olypmic Dressage horse would be trying to evade the bit, but a crank is still present. That's what I'm wondering about. Is it just tradition? Just because the rules say so? Or something else that I don't know about, hence why I'm asking? :lol:

Different people answer that differently, and that's what I like to learn about. All the varying explanations and opinions on it.

[atr]

[QUOTE=sublimequine;3101493]I've seen quite a few upper level horses with crank nosebands on.. and I THINK Olympic Dressage horses are also fitted with a crank, but I could be wrong. And often times you can see their jaws going even under the crank, so I'd assume the mouth would be open if the crank was removed. That's what I was referring to.

I'd rather hope that the horse's jaw was moving. It supposed to. Soft chewing and all that.

[sublimequine]

I started dressage about 3 months ago and my guy would open and evade the bit. The trainer I had at the time wanted me to get a crank (being new to this I didn't have a clue) so I bought one. I love the bridle and I love the crank but I don't crank it down. My is just tight enough that it holds it on but he still eats grass and treats with it. Now when my old trainer got hold of it she would crank it SO tight it would leave marks on him (the flash and the crank) when I took it off :eek: I felt so bad but didn't say anything. I didn't feel like he needed it that tight. It will never go that tight again. :cool:

To the comment on dressage is about lightness and horses wanting to do it and not evading blah blah blah, well its the same in every sport. Look at hunters they use kimberwickes (whatever proper spelling is) and pelhams when a true nice hunter should go in the less severe bit possible hence a o or d ring plain snaffle, but the kimberwickes and pelhams will beat out o rings anyday and also in hunters there are the martingales :confused: In which a nice easy going hunter shouldn't need a martingale. Just like in barrel racing they wear spurs, well if the horse truely wanted to run the barrel then they shouldn't need them to make the horse go faster the horse should just run faster because it loves its job. A horse may love its job and/or like it but it doesn't mean that there aren't lots of little contraptions to push the job on the horse more and make them do it correctly. I will also say that even if it is cranked to no end if the horse wants to be disobeident it can!!! Believe me my horse proved that with throwing his head up and counterbending and stepping on the arena fence and making oval like circles so just because the upper level riders have the horses mouthes cranked (which I'm not saying I agree with) it doesn't me the horse can't be an a$$ another way.;)

Are cranks and flashes used together? I thought it was just one or the other. I'm surprised a flash can fit on a crank noseband, they're so wide. :eek:

And I think I get what you're saying. Good analogies. And that's definitely true about even if the horse can't open it's mouth, it can disobey other ways. Good point! :lol:

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=sublimequine;3101493]I've seen quite a few upper level horses with crank nosebands on.. and I THINK Olympic Dressage horses are also fitted with a crank, but I could be wrong. And often times you can see their jaws going even under the crank, so I'd assume the mouth would be open if the crank was removed. That's what I was referring to.

I'd rather hope that the horse's jaw was moving. It supposed to. Soft chewing and all that.

But some of the horses I've seen really didn't look like soft chewing.. with like the lips pulled back and the teeth clacking, it looked a lot more like tension to me. That's not to say all the horses I've seen are like that, but some I have seen were.

[rabicon]

Are cranks and flashes used together? I thought it was just one or the other. I'm surprised a flash can fit on a crank noseband, they're so wide. :eek:

And I think I get what you're saying. Good analogies. And that's definitely true about even if the horse can't open it's mouth, it can disobey other ways. Good point! :lol:

Heres my guy with the stubben crank and flash on.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2382564780101424462yHmTcI

and you can see he can still open his mouth :lol: and this is when the trainer had it cranked so tight it left marks.

[ESG]

Actually...and now I'll probably be on your ignore list :lol:...you are rather difficult to help and don't listen to suggestions/answers very well. :no: This thread should've ended on the first page or so as this has been done to death before and I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for. If it's information, a search would've yielded that already. I'm posting merely to say that you canNOT tighten a crank noseband tight enough to keep a horse's mouth shut, it's simply not in the right location to do so. The addition of a flash can help somewhat, but horses can still open their mouths with both the crank and the flash, just not in a huge, gaping way. So your theory is incorrect. :yes:;)

Nice try, Dune. But this one doesn't want to be helped, or informed. Don't waste your typing time. Can't teach a pig to sing, after all. :winkgrin:

[sublimequine]

Heres my guy with the stubben crank and flash on.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2382564780101424462yHmTcI

and you can see he can still open his mouth :lol: and this is when the trainer had it cranked so tight it left marks.

Huh, I didn't know that! :lol:

Gorgeous horse, what kind is he? He has a really kind face. :)

And yeah, I can see the mouth still open. That's kinda what I was referring to when I said I've seen upper level horses with lips pulled back and teeth clacking, although they were doing it a ton more than your guy. You could see they were still trying to open their mouths, even with whatever noseband they had in place. Kinda like these I guess;

http://www.camrosestud.org.uk/Special%20D%20-%20head.jpg
http://webzoom.freewebs.com/camrosestud/Gribaldi%20-%20head.jpg

I mean, I see their mouths and it looks like if you took the noseband off, the mouths would be wide open. And they're highly-trained horses, I think. :confused:

[rabicon]

Well like any discipline there are good examples and bad. I don't know these horses or their riders so I'm not going to really comment on the photos, not sure if they are well trained or not. The one is in an Oring which indicates he is not up to 4th level yet. The second photo I really don't see anything wrong with the crank. My guy is a morgan and we think he has qh and perch. in him. Thanks he is a handful. ;)

[sublimequine]

Well like any discipline there are good examples and bad. I don't know these horses or their riders so I'm not going to really comment on the photos, not sure if they are well trained or not. The one is in an Oring which indicates he is not up to 4th level yet. The second photo I really don't see anything wrong with the crank. My guy is a morgan and we think he has qh and perch. in him. Thanks he is a handful. ;)

Wow, REALLY?! That's such an unusual cross, and here I was thinking he was a warmblood or something. :lol:

What's his name? :)

And yeah, I didn't post those photos to say "OH THAT'S HORRIBLE!! :mad::mad:" or anything, just to give an example of what I've been seeing that I was wondering about. Like you said, I don't know the situation, the horses, the riders, or anything. But the info below the pictures said they were both pretty fancy horses.

[rileyt]

Oh God. I can't believe I'm posting on this thread, but I can't help but ask...

Sublimequine, are you 10?

[sublimequine]

Oh God. I can't believe I'm posting on this thread, but I can't help but ask...

Sublimequine, are you 10?

Well bless your heart. :lol:

[rileyt]

14, maybe?

[sublimequine]

Alrightie, thread's closed. I've had enough folks being snotty for today. Vultures can now swoop to their next victim. :lol:

[Auventera Two]

Sublime - I found out ages ago that this dressage board is the nastiest forum on coth. I do read here a couple times a week and ocassionally get into the jousting just to pepper up my boring afternoon at work. :lol: But seriously, if you want really good info, this isn't the place to get it. I don't read any dressage boards because I'm just not that interested in it anymore, but there are others out there.

I pull up the Dressage Daily site and read what's going on with the top riders. There are lots of articles posted on there, that of course are free of the diatribes, attacks on your intelligence, and inference that you're an ass, or a pig, or a troll. :cool:

For what it's worth, I hate crank nosebands. I've seen them in the tack stores and the leverage is unreal. People can crank those things down tight enough to damage cartilage and kill cappilaries if they want to. If people are only concerned about having a fully padded noseband, you could of course buy a crank and adjust it loosely, or you could use a regular padded noseband with a Cashel foam channel under the chin. I have a hard time believing that the ONLY reason for cranks is for the padding. If that were the case, they'd just add more padding to regular nosebands. The turned back pulley action is for the leverage advantage it gives the human. Leather stretches over time. If you were pulling your regular noseband as tight as you could, the horse's jaws, and sweat would stretch it out, making you punch more holes.

If you do a google search for "fei dressage" and then click on the IMAGES tab, you could sit for hours counting horses with the nosebands so tight it's cutting into the flesh on the cheeks and bridge. Just for grins I had a peek yesterday and was pretty surprised by what I saw. So regardless of what people say here, clearly many dressage riders DO use nosebands to clamp the mouth shut.

Remember the one on the front cover of Equus that caused such a stir? The glash noseband was so tight. I took the issue out of the mailbox and said "Oh my god!" out loud. It was horrible. People were writing in to their editorial column which prompted them to say that the noseband wasn't "really" as tight as it "looked." Yeah right - spare me.

[sublimequine]

Sublime - I found out ages ago that this dressage board is the nastiest forum on coth. I do read here a couple times a week and ocassionally get into the jousting just to pepper up my boring afternoon at work. :lol: But seriously, if you want really good info, this isn't the place to get it. I don't read any dressage boards because I'm just not that interested in it anymore, but there are others out there.

I pull up the Dressage Daily site and read what's going on with the top riders. There are lots of articles posted on there, that of course are free of the diatribes, attacks on your intelligence, and inference that you're an ass, or a pig, or a troll. :cool:

For what it's worth, I hate crank nosebands. I've seen them in the tack stores and the leverage is unreal. People can crank those things down tight enough to damage cartilage and kill cappilaries if they want to.

If you do a google search for "fei dressage" and then click on the IMAGES tab, you could sit for hours counting horses with the nosebands so tight it's cutting into the flesh on the cheeks and bridge. Just for grins I had a peek yesterday and was pretty surprised by what I saw. So regardless of what people say here, clearly many dressage riders DO use nosebands to clamp the mouth shut.

Remember the one on the front cover of Equus that caused such a stir? The noseband was so tight. I took the issue out of the mailbox and said "Oh my god!" out loud. It was horrible. People were writing in to their editorial column which prompted them to say that the noseband wasn't "really" as tight as it "looked." Yeah right - spare me.

Thanks, I'll have to go elsewhere for more info and experiences I guess. For now I'm heading back to Horse Care, Off Course, and Endurance/Trail. My goodness. :lol:

[Auventera Two]

Thanks, I'll have to go elsewhere for more info and experiences I guess. For now I'm heading back to Horse Care, Off Course, and Endurance/Trail. My goodness. :lol:

LOL I know the feeling. :lol:

[sublimequine]

LOL I know the feeling. :lol:

TBH I find it a little funny that a few folks called this entire ordeal before it even began. I guess I didn't have my flamesuit on tight enough. I wasn't really expecting these kinds of responses.. at all. :lol:

[Ambrey]

First of all, you need to properly categorize. Drops and flashes are polar opposites of a crank.

Drops and flashes are, when properly adjusted, no more than a deterrent to a horse opening its mouth to avoid the bit. They do not force the mouth closed, but discourage the gaping that's not uncommon as a young horse learns to accept connection. In short, it's easier to prevent this problem, than to try to fix it later. ;)

A crank is far more severe, as it prevents almost any movement of the horse's jaw. I dislike cranks for that reason, and see them as an indication that there's a hole in the training somewhere.

JMO. :cool:

Well, the original question was about the "norm" of the crank+flash noseband, and the response was regarding a drop, so that's why I phrased it that way. I'd say I was uncategorizing, rather than the opposite.

Beyond that, I agree with those who've said "it's all in how you use it." I have never pulled my horse's crank as tight as I could, always left some wiggle room. So, I wouldn't say that the presence of the crank denotes gaps (although since he's early in his training, there are more "huge open craters" than "gaps," lol!).

[Auventera Two]

TBH I find it a little funny that a few folks called this entire ordeal before it even began. I guess I didn't have my flamesuit on tight enough. I wasn't really expecting these kinds of responses.. at all. :lol:

Well heck, the nastiest posters didn't even show up yet! :eek: You've got about 4 of them missing. When they show up, to hell with the flame suite. You better have sianide pills to put yourself out of the misery. :lol: (j/k on the pills. Serious about the posters though)

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I took the flash off, have never used it. If my hands suck and make him resistant, up to me to fix it.

He's very sensitive around the muzzle, too, and would hate anything strapped around it.

[goeslikestink]

The primary reason for using a flash or dropped noseband is to prevent the young horse from developing bit evasions, including opening the mouth, crossing the jaws, and putting the tongue over the bit. All young horses at one point or another will seek to evade the bit as the work gets harder for them

Yup, and I think alot of people who do not train horses or have alot of experience are really quick to foo foo it simply because it doesn't look "at one with the horse" or whatever.

The simple fact of the matter is that every horse has some issue that must be worked through. Sometimes aids are not needed but sometimes they are. I am training a friesian mare right now who's very being is "on the forhand". She doesn't like to work hard and in order to avoid listening to my half halts when the work gets hard (ie canter!) she will open her mouth so as to gain leverage to pull and evade the rein aid I am giving. I rode her in a normal snaffle with the flash done up just comfortably when both my trainers told me to get a crank on there so she CANT open her mouth to evade.

Guess what..it worked and I am back in a normal cavesson and the problem has passed. It was a temporary aid to help me get the message through to an animal that was determined to out muscle me.

Anyways..I am not saying all horses need this. I have started a number of youngsters and never had to use one before, but I will no longer frown on the use of these things if they are warranted. Because..they sometimes are!

IMHO if your horse is evading you, well YOU are doing something wrong.

LOOOOL yeah ok. Wouldnt it be a perfect world if all horses had superb rideability built in. But last time I checked they are still evaluating breeding animals for it so it clearly is something that is desired but definately not always there.

quite--- its called respect from your hands

[slc2]

I think if anyone is getting that self righteous about a noseband, to the point of writing off the SRS, there's not much point in talking to them. i write this to consolidate my own thoughts. i won't be defending what i write or debating the subject on this post. those who are curious about the statements made in this post are free to investigate further if they are curious or interested.

I think auventura 2 would find the bb a much less 'nasty' place if people agreed with her more often - she likes that. but they don't...largely because she's very critical and judgemental of dressage riders; she is so critical and negative toward dressage riders, and goes to dressage web sites to criticise them...go to a different website, where there aren't so many dressage riders, alot more people will agree with you.

how i think of this. some people are gathering information and are curious...some aren't, they are only looking for people who agree with them and that's what they come on the internet to find.

some of them focus on the people who don't agree, trying to make them agree. others just go to speciality web sites and talk about 'those other riders' and disparage them.

neither groups learn anything.

i get alot of pms saying, 'you are my new best friend because you have the same point of view i do'....i can't think of a WORSE reason to pick a 'new best friend'.

using or not using a caveson does not make one rider better than another. it is a very fantastical stretch of the imagination to even suggest that the absence or presence of a caveson is always marking a good or bad rider.

instead of trying so desperately to seek out ways they are better than people who use this or that piece of equipment, riders should understand what each piece of equipment does, how it functions, in a less emotional way, determine which pieces of equipment they need, and use that equipment, no more, no less.

a flash or a dropped noseband or a crank cannot hide or stop a horse from reacting to bad hands or imcorrect riding. it is just as obvious with or without the caveson. to even suggest a caveson is capable of hiding riding problems is just a mark of inexperience.

no one with any experience in riding and dressage would suggest that a caveson can conceal a riding problem.

a caveson of any type cannot keep the mouth shut. that isn't their purpose, that isn't what they do, that isn't what they're designed for, that isn't what they're used for.

The purpose of all cavesons is the same, to keep the bit in a position in the mouth where it is more effective, and the rider can communicate better with the horse. a puller pulls more with a caveson off, a nervous horse will often fuss more with the bit when it's not suspended in his mouth and stabilized, and he will resist the rider's hands more when the rider uses the reins, because the bit is moving too much. a nervous horse often wants everything still and nothing flapping around - including the bit AND the rider.

people used to tighten plain cavesons with girth tighteners so tight that it dented the horse's nose in, and they still opened their mouths.

there was a full page cover of a dressage horse on one of the riding magazines with a plain caveson so tight it was denting his nose, and his mouth was open. it was ...no, I'm not going to say, but it wasn't any of the currently vilified competition riders.

whatever problems were going on were still very obvious.

there is nothing 'kind' about a plain caveson over a crank. one is not better than the other.

with young horses, it is normal and natural for them to react to having a new thing in their mouths, and for them to cross their jaws, raise their head, put their head down, chew, champ, play with the bit, and respond to it in ways we don't want. To expect every horse to be born knowing how to respond to the bit is a mark of inexperience in training horses, to insist that all can be trained without cavesons is also a mark of inexperience. to believe that by avoiding the issue, and letting the reins hang down, one can resolve the issue, is also inexperience. unfortnately these approaches don't work. they work even less well in dressage than any other type of riding because so much is dependent on the horse accepting and carrying the bit evenly.

people don't stand up and scream that they're better people and better golfers because they need a different type of golf shoe. but it's not unusual to ehar an inexperienced rider try to claim they're 'better' or 'kinder' or 'care about the horse more' than others who use a different kind of caveson. it is of course nonsense. some horses need some equipment, others need other equipement. one is not 'better' than the other.

a caveson is not a brutal piece of equipment, and it is not a sign of a bad rider.

people who use cavesons are not abusing their horses.

a horse that wears a flash from the time it's broke is usually not in the least bothered by it. horses are always bothered by equipment they aren't accustomed to, so much that we used to sell horses with 'their' bit. horses don't like change. it doesn't mean a flash or drop is brutal or cruel. it means a horse isn't accustomed to it. some horses are more able to deal with changes in equipment than others.

a crank noseband is kinder to a horse and exerts less pressure on the nose (on any one given spot). i use cranks on horses that are sensitive skinned and get pinched from a regular caveson. if a caveson is rubbing the lips near the bit, it is incorrectly adjusted. usually it needs to be raised.

cranks are not designed to allow over tightening.

the crank cavesons i have are typical and are so designed that they can only be tightened to a certain point and then the design prevents them from being tightened further.

once the bottom and top padded parts meet they cannot be tightened any further. at this point they are relatively loose on most horses and the correct number of fingers can be inserted between the horse's face and the caveson.

a horse is supposed to champ his jaws, constantly, slowly, rhythmically, and in a relaxed fashion, in dressage. his jaws are not to remain still in classical dressage. all cavesons are designed to allow that champing.

[amastrike]

To each their own. I find it unlikely I'll revise my opinion on cranks/flashes, but it's interesting to hear different opinions on them. And hey, if my refusal to use one interferes with my and my horse's progress, then it helps others when we show. I'm happy, my horse is happy, and the people who beat me are happy, lol. I'm not sure I agree that cranks can't force a mouth shut, but it's as much the idea that people *try* to do that (even if it's not successful). Nothing wrong with questioning old methods, especially when so many blindly follow. Horsemen of old were human too.

Thanks for bringing this up, sublimequine, even if things went downhill rather quickly :).

[canticle]

So spake the Lord!

slc2 likes nosebands, so anyone who questions whether they are absolutely necessary must be inexperienced. I think being so dependent on a piece of equipment is a sign of inexperience. :winkgrin: If cranks are not designed to allow overtightening, why do we see so many that are overtightened??? More koolaid plz!!!

Anyway, I'd like to see some pictures of horses with flash or crank nosebands AND their mouths wide open. If the noseband doesn't effect mouth-opening ability at all, then I stand corrected. But it seems pretty fishy to me to tie the horse's mouth shut if the device isn't even going to work.

[Kathy Johnson]

Tightening the crank or cavesson vs. tightening the flash. Was that the original question? They both serve to help keep the mouth closed. Tighten your hands on the end of your nose and chin and try to open your mouth. It makes it more uncomfortable. Then tighten your hands on the back of your jaw and the top of your nose. Try to open your mouth.

The cavesson and the flash work in *similar* ways, not exact because of the shape of our faces. The cavesson or crank helps to hold the mouth shut from a different place than the flash. The drop helps to hold the mouth shut from a slightly different place than the flash. None of them can completely keep a horse's mouth shut, as the horse's jaw is so strong. However, they can make it uncomfortable when the horse tries to gape his jaw.

Anytime a rider rides in a snaffle, they should use a cavesson, correctly tightened. This prevents the bit from pulling through the mouth in the event of a runaway, pulley rein or one rein stop (working from the principle of restricting the opening the jaw as seen above). Nosebands, flashes and drops help stabilize the jaw and the bit and have a place in dressage, when correctly used.

I have seen a trainer use a girth tightener to tighten the crank. Not good.

[Auventera Two]

slc - I didn't understand a word you said. I'm sorry. :confused: The thread wasn't about normal cavessons. It was about flashes and cranks adjusted tightly. I've never heard that classical dressage horses are supposed to constantly champ their jaws. Weird. Disagreeing and discussion is great. It's nastiness/name calling and attacking that really sucks.

Why would do dressage riders feel the need to tighten cavessons so tight it dents the cartilage of the nose in? I just don't understand it. If it serves no purpose for holding the mouth shut, then why even do it? How does damaging the soft tissue of your horse's face net any benefit? It would seem that it does "something" or people wouldn't do it. Dressage competitors don't normally just disfigure their horses for the fun of it. So your comments on the super tight cavesons having no purpose doesn't make sense to me.

Also I still don't get why riders in other disciplines have no problems with baby horses being nervous or wigged out because of an unstable bit. Why do only the dressage horses have this problem? Or are the riders perceiving a problem that isn't really there?

I agree that a normal cavesson, or even a crank or flash adjusted fairly loose will help hold the bit in position. There's no problem with that. I think the point sublime was trying to make was the flashes and cranks adjusted so darned tight that the cartilage and soft tissue of the cheeks is impinged.

[katarine]

A2, please point us to the exact post, or posts, where anyone said that one should adjust a crank, flash, dropped, or ANY cavesson so tight it dents the horses face permanently. Please, point it out.

OP, mind telling everyone how you and your astute trainer aspire to teach your mare to take her leads? Please, share the wealth of knowledge, as it may demonstrate your overall knowledge and readiness to sit anywhere near the dressage table.. Tit for tat: you ask a question, a question gets asked of you. Please, tell them. Paint the canvas.

[Ambrey]

OP, mind telling everyone how you and your astute trainer aspire to teach your mare to take her leads? Please, share the wealth of knowledge, as it may demonstrate your overall knowledge and readiness to sit anywhere near the dressage table.. Tit for tat: you ask a question, a question gets asked of you. Please, tell them. Paint the canvas.

Hmm, I didn't realize there was a test to post in the dressage forum or about dressage. Unfortunately I probably fail as well.

[mp]

Why would do dressage riders feel the need to tighten cavessons so tight it dents the cartilage of the nose in? I just don't understand it. If it serves no purpose for holding the mouth shut, then why even do it? How does damaging the soft tissue of your horse's face net any benefit? It would seem that it does "something" or people wouldn't do it. Dressage competitors don't normally just disfigure their horses for the fun of it. So your comments on the super tight cavesons having no purpose doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think anyone on this thread has said denting a horse's nose is a good idea. Whatever the original poster's question (and I really don't know what it is, since it's been edited), he/she got some thoughtful answers re: cranks and flashes, and what their purpose is and why some people use them. But apparently that wasn't sufficient. So perhaps you both could ask your questions at another dressage forum, and then report your findings here.

[katarine]

Ambrey, there really isn't a test, of course..but you can well imagine there are posters that are simultaneously innocent in their ignorance (my synopsis of the OP) and mulish in their half formed opines (ditto). It may shed light to better understand the OPs current knowlege base, that is all I am asserting.

I've sat in a dressage saddle exactly twice in 37 years, and I know and gleefully admit there's a mountain of data I don't know and never will. I am not asserting that anyone shouldn't ask questions: it's the questions that aren't questions, but are statements of philosophy, those drive me out of my horse-sense tree. Of course anyone and everyone should ASK anything if one is open to answers and discussion. Otherwise, the mirror will suffice, no?

[slc2]

"Why would do dressage riders feel the need to tighten cavessons so tight it dents the cartilage "

Fascinating news. In many decades, I've never worked with or ridden with or even NEAR...anyone in dressage who 'felt the need' to tighten 'cavessons' so tight they 'dents the cartilage'.

This universal dressage problem all dressage riders have...it isn't exactly universal. It's a few people, the magazine cover was ONE HORSE (and my point it was a flat, plain caveson, not a flash, not a crank)...and hardly ridden by someone I'd consider to be a real dressage rider...

The only 'dents' in cartilage I've seen were on some Quarter horse and race-track THb breeding stallions...oh...and a couple endurance horses...MAN that was ugly. HUGE big dents in their noses. one had his cartilage in his nose BROKEN...from being tied up during an endurance ride. God...those endurance riders, all tieing horses up like that...terrible....

[sublimequine]

The thread is closed down, folks are coming in and don't even have a clue WHAT the original post was about, and are STILL trying their darndest to be the nastiest they can be.

I'm impressed. :lol::lol::lol:

[merrygoround]

But you'd think in Dressage, especially in levels where a flash is required, bad hands would NEVER be present.. right? :eek:

There is no REQUIREMENT for a flash!!!!

[Auventera Two]

"Why would do dressage riders feel the need to tighten cavessons so tight it dents the cartilage "

Fascinating news. In many decades, I've never worked with or ridden with or even NEAR...anyone in dressage who 'felt the need' to tighten 'cavessons' so tight they 'dents the cartilage'. .

slc - First, I thought you said you weren't coming back to debate this. Second, I think you type so much you just forget all the stories you made up. :lol: Below is a post by YOU.


people used to tighten plain cavesons with girth tighteners so tight that it dented the horse's nose in, and they still opened their mouths.

there was a full page cover of a dressage horse on one of the riding magazines with a plain caveson so tight it was denting his nose, and his mouth was open. it was ...no, I'm not going to say, but it wasn't any of the currently vilified competition riders.


The only 'dents' in cartilage I've seen were on some Quarter horse and race-track THb breeding stallions...oh...and a couple endurance horses...MAN that was ugly. HUGE big dents in their noses. one had his cartilage in his nose BROKEN...from being tied up during an endurance ride. God...those endurance riders, all tieing horses up like that...terrible....

So the endurance horse with a damaged nose - that was an accident, correct? Since the horse was "tied up" during an endurance ride? Accidents happen all the time. Not sure how it's relevant.

slc - I love reading your posts. Everyone puts you on ignore, but it's a shame. The stories you tell are out of this world. A story for everything. You will always swoop in with an even bigger and better story than the one told by somebody else.

If I said I saw a dressage horse with it's legs tied together with barbed wire - then you would have seen an endurance horse or a jumper whose legs were actually BROKEN into 15 pieces when tied up with barbed wire. :rolleyes: Seriously, think about what you type. For all your wild and bizarre experiences you must be a thousand years old.

Many rescue horses have permanently damaged cartilage from halters grown into their face. Two of my mares have disfigured noses and white hairs from previous owners that left the old nylon halters on for years at a time. I'm really surprised you haven't seen this too. This is much more common than bridling disasters. Especially since you have a rescue pony that you saved from a broken down barn standing on 5 feet of manure. Did he not have a tight halter on? Most of them do.

In any case - anybody who tightens nosebands so tight that it cause pain or damage is doing a bad thing - dressage rider or otherwise.

[Dune]

FWIW, I only put folks who are throwing out insults on my ignore list. And like I just said as well, I want a lot of folks' opinions and experiences with this, so no, ending it at the first page wouldn't do it for me.

And it's really not the gaping vs slightly open mouth that I'm wondering about, it's why really top of the line Dressage horses would need reminders or aids to keep their mouths closed? I thought stuff like that was addressed way down in the earlier levels, so that's the stem of the confusion. I wouldn't think like an Olypmic Dressage horse would be trying to evade the bit, but a crank is still present. That's what I'm wondering about. Is it just tradition? Just because the rules say so? Or something else that I don't know about, hence why I'm asking? :lol:

Different people answer that differently, and that's what I like to learn about. All the varying explanations and opinions on it.

Answer: Because a crank is not there to keep the mouth closed, I'm not sure how many different ways folks can say it. :confused:Also, you can't "close" your own thread, the moderators have to do it. Now it looks a little silly since you removed your original post. If it was important enough to start in the first place, then you ought to stand by it and leave it up.:yes:

[slc2]

I think you missed the point, a2. you were going around getting all big and bad saying dressage riders do this, dressage riders do that, like you usually do (i realize you didn't say flashes are required in dressage but just must say to the person who wrote that, that was PRECIOUS!!!!!), in thread after thread (then the inevitable disclaimer saying how you've given up trying to teach anyone anything, because they won't listen, that's how clueless they really are, and now don't get involved in these things and just enjoy life...), dressage riders are all so totally clueless, cruel, incompetent, misled...that's my response...endurance riders do this...no, it's not really an accident if you leave a horse that's fit to run 100 miles tied up for hours and expect him to stand there and not move....see? i can just as easily sit there and dissect your sport and call all your people morons too...except i haven't, and you have.

question. do you do this only on dressage forums, or do you also have other types of riders you tell how bad they are too?

[ESG]

Well, the original question was about the "norm" of the crank+flash noseband, and the response was regarding a drop, so that's why I phrased it that way. I'd say I was uncategorizing, rather than the opposite.

Sorry, Ambrey - I misunderstood you. :o

Beyond that, I agree with those who've said "it's all in how you use it." I have never pulled my horse's crank as tight as I could, always left some wiggle room. So, I wouldn't say that the presence of the crank denotes gaps (although since he's early in his training, there are more "huge open craters" than "gaps," lol!).

Quite right. And I know all about those "craters" - I'm in the process of filling in a few with my two guys. :yes:

[Auventera Two]

endurance riders do this...no, it's not really an accident if you leave a horse that's fit to run 100 miles tied up for hours and expect him to stand there and not move....see? i can just as easily sit there and dissect your sport and call all your people morons too...except i haven't, and you have.

I haven't used the word moron. I don't think anyone here is a moron, and I don't think that "dressage riders are morons." A couple of my good friends ride and show dressage and I greatly admire their horses and their accomplishments. I was talking about the people who crank down nosebands too tight.

But anyway, what do you suggest dressage riders do with their horses overnight while camping? Put them on a treadmill and let them run for 14 hours? :confused: About half the horses are tied up on hi-ties or similar, and half are in small paddocks. I would say that accidents are pretty rare. Training a horse to be hi-tied, picketed, or put in a small paddock overnight is part of the training for the sport.

So the fact that you personally have seen numerous endurance horses with broken noses from being tied up - and you don't even ride endurance, nor have you ever - seems to tell me that you're making up another fib.

[Moderator 1]

It's true that only moderators can close a thread, and all posters should be aware that discussions can easily deviate from their intended paths when a question or scenario is laid out for public comment, often related to the choice of presentation of the query or the posts that follow.

You're all welcome to continue a related discussion, despite the removal of the OP; however, please put away your popcorn and step back from the personal commentary.

Thanks.

[LarkspurCO]

Sublimequine, Google cached your original post, so I am copying it here for those who may be interested.

I'm no expert in Dressage, I'll admit that right off the bat. I'm a pleasure/trail rider with a stock horse, who only rides Dressage occasionally on my mom's horse. I grew up in Dressage, but after I bought my mare, I decided on a different direction.

Maybe it's just because I'm an 'outsider looking in', but I just don't understand why flash and crank nosebands are used in Dressage. To me, they are the absolute antithesis to what Dressage is all about. But maybe you folks can prove that wrong, or show me otherwise.

Dressage is all about a relaxed flow of energy in the horse, a horse who is relaxed and willing to do its job with the smallest of cues coming from a sympathetic and giving rider who listens to the horse and is adjusting every second of the ride. It's about harmony and connection, correct? Then where on earth does "STRAP THE HORSE'S MOUTH SHUT!" fit in with this ideal of Dressage?

And some folks will say that a flash or crank is not used to shut the mouth of a gaping horse. But just by design, that's EXACTLY what it's for. Some folks also say it's just for holding the bit still in the mouth, but then why not use a Baucher? I really don't think the flash or crank were originally designed for that purpose, especially because the crank doesn't hold the bit still at all anyways.

I just don't quite understand, how I see these Olypmic horses, the pinnacle of their discipline.. complete with crank nosebands tight TIGHT TIGHT. I wonder what those horses would look like in like a western bridle with NO noseband? I bet you anything we'd see a lot of open mouths.

So that's my question. Why are flash and crank nosebands part of a discipline that is all about relaxation and harmony, when these pieces of equipment are all about masking signs of tension (ie, open mouths)?

(Please don't read this as confrontational. It is something I feel strongly about, but I honestly want to get a 'real Dressage' rider's opinion on it, so perhaps I can better understand. )

[LarkspurCO]

Also I still don't get why riders in other disciplines have no problems with baby horses being nervous or wigged out because of an unstable bit. Why do only the dressage horses have this problem? Or are the riders perceiving a problem that isn't really there?

I don't know what other disciplines rely on nearly continuous bit contact as in dressage. Jumpers maybe, but that's an entirely different dynamic, and they also typically ride with cavessons and flashes.

When your hands are in constant communication with the mouth, I think bit stability becomes much more imortant than when you only pick up the reins now and then.

But I also think most (well-ridden) dressage horses would get along just fine without a tight flash or noseband.

[sublimequine]

It's true that only moderators can close a thread, and all posters should be aware that discussions can easily deviate from their intended paths when a question or scenario is laid out for public comment, often related to the choice of presentation of the query or the posts that follow.

You're all welcome to continue a related discussion, despite the removal of the OP; however, please put away your popcorn and step back from the personal commentary.

Thanks.

I wasn't aware name-calling and insulting was an acceptable "deviation from the intended path". Good to know that's allowed. :rolleyes:

Ya know what? I give up. You folks can continue burning this thread to the ground, and with your offensive, insulting, catty, and arrogant ways. Knock yourselves out. I'm out of the Dressage forum for good. Good riddance. :eek:

[Moderator 1]

No, those behaviors aren't acceptable, and we removed two posts from the thread before posting a notice on it. We encourage board members to utilize the alert function to report inappropriate posts so we can intervene if necessary before issues become more convoluted with time.

As this thread was already six pages long before we received an alert, instead of going in to edit the content of individual posts, we opted to remove two posts that were blatantly personal and off-topic and posted a general note to stick to the topic and avoid the personal commentary.

Thanks.

[canticle]

slc2, would you go so far as to say that it's impossible to overtighten a noseband? just wondering!:)

[mp]

Originally Posted by sublimequine
I'm no expert in Dressage, I'll admit that right off the bat. I'm a pleasure/trail rider with a stock horse, who only rides Dressage occasionally on my mom's horse. I grew up in Dressage, but after I bought my mare, I decided on a different direction.

Maybe it's just because I'm an 'outsider looking in', but I just don't understand why flash and crank nosebands are used in Dressage. To me, they are the absolute antithesis to what Dressage is all about. But maybe you folks can prove that wrong, or show me otherwise.

Dressage is all about a relaxed flow of energy in the horse, a horse who is relaxed and willing to do its job with the smallest of cues coming from a sympathetic and giving rider who listens to the horse and is adjusting every second of the ride. It's about harmony and connection, correct? Then where on earth does "STRAP THE HORSE'S MOUTH SHUT!" fit in with this ideal of Dressage?

And some folks will say that a flash or crank is not used to shut the mouth of a gaping horse. But just by design, that's EXACTLY what it's for. Some folks also say it's just for holding the bit still in the mouth, but then why not use a Baucher? I really don't think the flash or crank were originally designed for that purpose, especially because the crank doesn't hold the bit still at all anyways.

I just don't quite understand, how I see these Olypmic horses, the pinnacle of their discipline.. complete with crank nosebands tight TIGHT TIGHT. I wonder what those horses would look like in like a western bridle with NO noseband? I bet you anything we'd see a lot of open mouths.

So that's my question. Why are flash and crank nosebands part of a discipline that is all about relaxation and harmony, when these pieces of equipment are all about masking signs of tension (ie, open mouths)?

(Please don't read this as confrontational. It is something I feel strongly about, but I honestly want to get a 'real Dressage' rider's opinion on it, so perhaps I can better understand. )

Thanks for re-posting that, Larkspur.

To the OP -- You say you "grew up in dressage," and ride your mother's dressage horse. But, while you talk about the flow of energy etc etc, you don't seem to really grasp what that is. I'm not being condescending when I say that. I started out trail riding and showing western, and for years, I thought good riding was good riiding, reining is similar to dressage with different equipment, etc etc.

And then I started taking dressage lessons. After about a year (I'm a slow learner ;)) I finally started to understand what is meant in dressage by "contact" and "connection." And it is in no way similar to western or trail-type riding. It's a whole 'nother ballgame.

That you don't understand this explains why you're so sure the purpose of drop and crank nosebands is to tie the horse's mouth shut. While they can be pulled too tight (any piece of equipment can be misused), that's not their purpose. Properly used, they add an element of finesse to the communication between the horse and rider that dressage calls for. But if you don't understand what the communication is, there is no way you'll ever believe that.

So it's probably just as well that you stick to other forums. Because this one is just going to frustrate you and other posters who try to answer your questions.

PS -- I can't address what the top riders in the world do. I've seen videos of winning performances I thought were fabulous. Others, not so much. But I certainly don't ride in those circles and have never been to competitions of that level. So I don't really know how they train or how the nosebands are adjusted.

[~Freedom~]

That you don't understand this explains why you're so sure the purpose of drop and crank nosebands is to tie the horse's mouth shut. While they can be pulled too tight (any piece of equipment can be misused), that's not their purpose. Properly used, they add an element of finesse to the communication between the horse and rider that dressage calls for. But if you don't understand what the communication is, there is no way you'll ever believe that.



I have watched this thread grow and grow and I agree. The OP doesn't seem to have that basic fundemental knowledge of understanding the finesse that is dressage.

If you can't back up your postings without resorting to stomping off because things are not going your way then yes I would stay out of the dressage forum also.

[amastrike]

mp, that was the best explanation I've ever heard. I'm not a convert, but it makes more sense now. Thanks!

[ESG]

Agree with amastrike - amazingly well put, mp. :yes:

[canticle]

So now you can't train dressage without a crank or flash? This is getting curiouser and curiouser.

People who question whether nosebands are necessary are being told that "they just don't understand." Why is this attitude becoming so common when discussing dressage? Instead of being able to defend your decisions, everything comes down to just not knowing enough to have an opinion.

I can't help but think that if you guys truly had the level of communication that dressage requires, you wouldn't need the security blanket of tying the horse's mouth shut. But if you feel so much safer with one on, please make sure it is loose, for your horse's sake if nothing else. Yes, the noseband should be LOOSE, and you should be able to move it up and down easily.

[mp]

So now you can't train dressage without a crank or flash? This is getting curiouser and curiouser.

People who question whether nosebands are necessary are being told that "they just don't understand." Why is this attitude becoming so common when discussing dressage? Instead of being able to defend your decisions, everything comes down to just not knowing enough to have an opinion.

I can't help but think that if you guys truly had the level of communication that dressage requires, you wouldn't need the security blanket of tying the horse's mouth shut. But if you feel so much safer with one on, please make sure it is loose, for your horse's sake if nothing else. Yes, the noseband should be LOOSE, and you should be able to move it up and down easily.

You're more than welcome to your opinion. I'm just relating what *I* thought before I started riding dressage and positing that if you don't understand that "connection," you will never believe that the purpose of the crank/drop is not to tie the horse's mouth shut. And it looks like I'm right. :)

I didn't mean to imply that you can't train/ride dressage without a crank or a drop. My horse was started in a D-ring snaffle and a bridle with no noseband. I ride him in the same bit with a regular old cavesson, loosely buckled and only because it's on the bridle. It really serves no purpose, other than I think he looks nice in it.

But I'm just a lowly TL/schooling 1st rider. When (more like IF :lol:) I move up, I might find I need something else. I don't know. I do see cranks properly used by other riders who are more advanced than me, so I know it's possible. If I do get a different nose band, I can assure you it will only be because I've learned how to use it properly. It won't be to tie my horse's mouth shut. He's a very opinionated guy and he wouldn't put up with that for one second, nor would I ever ask him to.

[ESG]

So now you can't train dressage without a crank or flash? This is getting curiouser and curiouser.

Who said that? Which post? :confused:

People who question whether nosebands are necessary are being told that "they just don't understand."

Maybe I'm experiencing early senility, but I don't recall anyone being told "you just don't understand". What I read, from the OP, was a constant barrage of questions, to most of which she received answers, and some of which were unanswerable because they were really only conjecture on her part. "Well, I think I saw this - why is this?", and other queries of that nature, that couldn't possibly be answered by anyone who didn't see what the OP wasn't really sure, whether she saw it or not. Okay, that sentence made just about as much sense as some of the OP's questions. :no:


Why is this attitude becoming so common when discussing dressage? Instead of being able to defend your decisions, everything comes down to just not knowing enough to have an opinion.

Again, what thread are you reading? The OP asked questions, received answers, and kept asking the same questions, receiving the same answers, and then got shirty when told there weren't any more answers.

I can't help but think that if you guys truly had the level of communication that dressage requires, you wouldn't need the security blanket of tying the horse's mouth shut.

Okay, now who's being snarky? :rolleyes:

One more time, for those with limited comprehension skills. You don't tie a dressage horse's mouth shut. A flash, drop, or figure 8 cavesson prevent gaping. They do not tie the mouth shut. When, of course, properly used. Have we all seen flashes, et al, tightened past the point of efficacy and to the point of pain? Yep. But honestly, I've seen a lot more cavessons, of every kind, that were far too loose than too tight. JME.


But if you feel so much safer with one on, please make sure it is loose, for your horse's sake if nothing else. Yes, the noseband should be LOOSE, and you should be able to move it up and down easily.

Sorry, but you're wrong. The cavesson should not be loose; it should be adjusted with two fingers' space between it and the horse's head. It should not be so tight as to restrict air flow or jaw movement, nor so loose that it bounces about or gaps.

[foursocks]

Qualifiers: I've nothing much to say about flashes (although I've used one successfully in the past), and I'm a jumper rider so I'm in the wrong forum.

But- I stumbled on this thread through doing a search and I can't help myself: rabicon, at some point early on here you go on a bit about the usage of kimberwickes in the hunters. I cannot remember the last time I saw a kimberwicke on a showhunter at a rated show. Maybe 1978? If you're going to beat that dead horse, at least update yourself. Many, if not most, hunters *do* go in snaffles. Honest! :lol:

[canticle]

Sorry, but you're wrong. The cavesson should not be loose; it should be adjusted with two fingers' space between it and the horse's head. It should not be so tight as to restrict air flow or jaw movement, nor so loose that it bounces about or gaps.
If you are going to use a noseband, it should be so loose that it only comes into effect if the horse tries to gape. Yes, this is going to look very loose to someone who is used to the two-finger rule. Really only the most severe mouth-opening should be prevented by a noseband. If your noseband is doing anything more than that, you have it too tight! :yes:

[ESG]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. The cavesson shouldn't be flopping around on the horse's face; it should be tightened to the traditional two-fingers-inside adjustment.

I once heard Carol Lavell say that she likes a flash snug enough to avoid flopping, yet loose enough to enable her horse to take a sugar cube from her hand. I like that. :yes:

[grayarabpony]

.

I once heard Carol Lavell say that she likes a flash snug enough to avoid flopping, yet loose enough to enable her horse to take a sugar cube from her hand. I like that. :yes:

I like that too.

While it is hard to communicate with a horse with his mouth gaping wide open, it's not uncommon for a horse to tighten his jaw and lean on a flash noseband as well. Different equipment works well with different horses.

[ESG]

Agreed.

Personally, I'm in the camp of "if it doesn't need it, don't use it!" where flashes, drops and figure 8s are concerned. I'm not fond of unnecessary equipment. I'd rather start one in a plain cavesson and a Fulmer or full cheek French link, and go from there. If they're going to be the mouth-gaping type, you find out pretty quickly and can accommodate. But most, IME, are just fine with the plain cavesson, as long as you use the right bit.

JME. :cool:

[katarine]

Is it reasonable to 'grow up in dressage' and 'ride Dressage occasionally' AND simultaneously think one should train a green-ish 8-9 YO mare to canter on a certain lead, by trotting her into corners, pushing the mare faster, kicking with the outside leg, and pulling the nose to the outside, so the mare is unbalanced enough to 'land' on the desired lead? Then be surprised when she bucks in frustration? Food for thought...

[Robyn]

While auditing a Debbie McDonald Clinic I noticed that she at some point during every riders ride went up and gave the horse a sugar cube. Every one, whether outfitted in a crank or cavesson, with or without a flash, could open his mouth wide enough to accept and chew the sugar cube :)

[lindat]

sublimequine,
On a lighter note...I just saw your signature :lol::lol::lol: