Jingles needed for my mare

[alliekat]

My mares due date (for a lack of better words) has come n gone. She is a maiden and I feel like I have been run thru the gambet. She has all along not looked overly pregnant the hole time. Well she got something in her "good" eye that required having the vet out. After he treated her I had him run blood on her so I could know for sure. I must admit I will be heart broken if she isn't as I have waite two years now for this foal. She was bred two years ago to the same stallion but aborted after a career ending eye injury. I will find out first thing in the Am once my Vet has the lab results. I am so nervous.
I brought my mare in today to give her a bath and to take some pictures.
We sure could use some jingles to help us through this.

Here she is today.
http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=208508063/PictureID=4707732759/a=98790260_98790260/t_=98790260
http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=208508063/PictureID=4707733663/a=98790260_98790260/t_=98790260
http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=208508063/PictureID=4707740217/a=98790260_98790260/t_=98790260

and my personal favorite...
http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=208508063/PictureID=4707742024/a=98790260_98790260/t_=98790260

[Laurierace]

Here'a hoping your dream foal is hiding in there somewhere. She is a beautiful mare.

[cottagefarm]

HI Alliekat,

Beautiful mare.
Wishing you the best of news.
My mare lost her pregnancy this yr around 8 months so I know the anxiety your feeling :sadsmile:

Sending Jingles:yes:

[happy mouth]

Lovely mare, hoping she is just being a little sneaky.

[3Dogs]

really beautiful mare - here's jingling that the babe is happily there and hiding!

[alliekat]

Thank you so much. It sure is nice to have support.
Cottage Farm, I am sorry to hear of your loss. Did you notice anything different in your mare when she aborted? My mare lives out 24/7 but I spend most of my day hanging out with her. I think I know every single inch of her. Would I have seen anything? wet on the back of her legs any thing with her vulva?
Do mares abort at that stage with no signs of a abortion afterwards?

[Peace of Cake]

Has she had a major change in attitude?

My mare is a maiden and is due in June, and does not look one bit pregnant but she is. Sometimes they hide them really well. Best of luck! let us know how it turns out.

[alliekat]

She has always been super sweet almost obnoxious. She is still sweet but any time I touch her belly near her flank she turns to nip.This is new. She will let me mess with her udder and still doesn't mind that at all, but she does not have any developement there. She has a good size barrel and has stayed pretty fit thru her pregnancy. I thought that maybe the foal is high .

[DLee]

What a lovely, lovely mare! Crossing my fingers for you!!

[Sugarbrook]

Alliekat: How far along in days should she be now? She certainly is lovely. You are in Ocala, close to me.

[alliekat]

Thank you all. My mare is 346 days. BTW Your stallion Traveller is YUMMY!!!

[FLIPPED HER HALO]

I've been doing foal watch at a friends place and a few of the mares have been over 2 weeks overdue and not forming bags at all until the day before they delivered. These weren't maiden mares either! Each one is just so different. Most of the horses have been overdue, but I think a lot of that has been due to the unsettled weather. They have all delivered big healthy foals, including the maiden that didn't show very much.

Please keep us posted.

[Cindy's Warmbloods]

What an absolutely gorgeous mare!! Though I have to be honest and say she does not look pregnant to me but those maidens can sometimes be sneaky! I had one that did not look pregnant or develop an udder until day 350something and then developed and udder and foaled within a few hours. Keeping my fingers crossed for you!!
Is she developing an udder at all?

[fish]

Truly a gorgeous mare. I understand the heartbreak and hope you have good news this morning.

[Fred]

Beautiful mare! Keeping my fingers crossed for you that you have good news.
{hugs}

[buschkn]

WOW she is beeeeautiful! Fingers crossed for good news today. I am hoping your dream baby will arrive soon.

[Home Again Farm]

Jingling that your lovely girl is still in foal.

[Iron Horse Farm]

Oh my good God what a nice mare!!!!!!!!!!!

But I just have to ask.................why would your vet draw blood instead of just sticking his hand up there and giving you an answer?

[Pippin]

alliekat , you have a PM..

P~

[alliekat]

Well I got some not so good news today. Her Estrone Sulfate(sp) levels came back a 17. Vet said that more than likely she aborted recently. He said a non pregnant mare would be a zero and a pregnant mare with a viable foal would be 25- 35.
I looked all over the internet to find out more information but I am having a hard time finding anything. I was way to upset to talk to him at that point. I have a call into him to see if he can explain it in more detail now that I have given it time to "sink in".
I didn't have him palpate her because she hates it so much. And I mean HATES it. If any one can give me some clarity to what these numbers mean I would greatly appreciate it.
Any advice would be welcomed too.
Thanks to all.
Allie

[JenRose]

No advice or help with clarification here...

Hugs and jingles! :no: I am so sorry.

[goodmorning]

I'm sure someone much more knowledgeable than myself will chime in, but in most species the numbers will drop before birth....so I'm not sure this is the most accurate way to go about things, if you had a number to compare it to, that might help.

I really would have her palpated. Forgive me for asking, but did you have her confirmed in foal at 18 and 30-something days?

Jingles for you and your mare, it sounds like you two have been through a lot, she is quite the pretty girl.

[alliekat]

I had her u/s at 17, pal at 30 u/s again at 65 pal again at 6 months. all were fine. I am going to call and see if he will come out and palpate her tomorrow. Thank you for the information.

[railmom]

What a lovely mare! I would have the vet tranq her and palpate, that is the only way you will know. If you watch her that closely, you would have had to notice some kind of discharge. Good Luck!

[Equine Reproduction]

Well I got some not so good news today. Her Estrone Sulfate(sp) levels came back a 17. Vet said that more than likely she aborted recently. He said a non pregnant mare would be a zero and a pregnant mare with a viable foal would be 25- 35.

Uh...errr.... "17" WHAT???? "25-35" WHAT???? A level of "17" bears little resemblance to anything expected to be used as a unit of measurement in the USA... It may be that a different unit of measurement was being used, but without identifying what the unit of measurement was, one cannot realy tell anything for sure.

If one presumes that the testing units used by the vet were ng/ml, and as there are 1,000 picograms in a nanogram, that level of "17" - if it were ng/ml - would be 17,000 pg/ml which is way over the top...

I looked all over the internet to find out more information but I am having a hard time finding anything. I was way to upset to talk to him at that point. I have a call into him to see if he can explain it in more detail now that I have given it time to "sink in".

Total estrogens test is valid after 110 days of pregnancy and its levels reflect the viability of fetal-placental unit.

From BET Labs at http://www.betlabs.com/ Go to Equine and then to Pregnancy Testing:



DAYS OF PREGNANCY TOTAL ESTROGENS
Mean concentrations (pg/mL)

Barren/open 5-50

90-100 75

100-110 205

110-120 356

120-130 469

130-140 857

140-150 1,040

150-320 Greater than 1,000


Approximately 2 weeks before foaling, total estrogens levels fall rapidly to around 300 pg/mL.

Progestagens rise and total estrogens fall prior to parturition in the mare. The rapid rise in progestagens is thought to be due to corticoid secretion by the fetus. The typical relationship between progestagens and total estrogens prior to foaling is shown below. Not all mares follow this pattern. Alkaloids in the fescue and other plants prevent the dramatic rise in the progestagens. The mechanism of this action is unknown.

MEAN CONCENTRATIONS OF PROGESTINS AND TOTAL ESTROGENS PRIOR TO BIRTH


DAYS OF PARTURITION PROGESTERONE TOTAL ESTROGENS
(ng/mL) (pg/ml)


15 4.8 3300

10 8.2 2100

9 10.1 1700

8 14.1 1600

7 21.0 900

6 25.0 850

5 27.0 600

4 29.0 550

3 31.0 400

2 35.0 410

1 36.0 300

(hopefully this "chart" doesn't wrap)


I didn't have him palpate her because she hates it so much. And I mean HATES it.

Well, sometimes we all have to do things we don't particularly like. But, with a little bit of tranquilizer, most mares will tolerate it. Just find a vet that is slow and patient and gentle most mares will learn to tolerate it. At this stage of the game, if your vet was to palpate the mare there would be absolutely NO doubt as to whether or not the mare is pregnant and it's not like he/she would have to stay in there longer than a minute or so. The foal would literally be right there to nibble on his/her hand! Have the mare palpated.

If any one can give me some clarity to what these numbers mean I would greatly appreciate it.

You've got the numbers, but as you can see, the numbers you quoted are a bit of a puzzle.

Good luck!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[goodmorning]

To further complicate things, Idexx will generate different numbers then BET and then there is always in house testing, and if so, its most likely some French machine that uses it own number system that is best understood by the French :winkgrin:

[alliekat]

Kathy I am glad you posted. The vet is coming out tomorrow and palpateing her. When I had the blood work done it was more for my piece of mind. She just didn't look very pregnant. Other than that I never once seen a sign that would have lead to to believe she wasn't. He was out already for her eye so I just had him pull blood. He actually thought I was a bit silly to be completely honest.
He is bringing the lab results with him so that I can have them in my hand. I will be happy to find out what measurements were used. I was in no shape to get into or absorb what anyone said to me this afternoon. I am completely crushed.
As soon as I have the paper work i will gladly report the findings. At this point I am trying to learn as much as possible.
Thank you again I do really appreciate your information as it has been very helpful to have when I get a chance to speak with my vet in the AM.

[alliekat]

Well it is offical she is not pregnant. Had her palpated this AM and she was empty. Thansk again to everyone. It is never easy to lose something but it sure was nice to have support.:sigh:

[FLIPPED HER HALO]

I'm so sorry.

[Pippin]

alliekat, i am sorry for your loss.. its not easy ever to loose a soon to be dream...
''try / try / and try again.. ''

would you please answer my PM..

thanks..

P~

[shea'smom]

Rats, sorry been there.

[mbj]

So sorry! My mare lost her first around 9 months and we never found anything. Since has had 2 more pregnancies with 2 healthy babies.Hope you have similar luck. Turned out my mare got infected at breeding barn first time, tho there were no external signs. Maybe get her cultured, etc before rebreeding?

[cottagefarm]

Sorry things didn't work out for you Alliekat
As I told you before my mare lost her foal this year but we should be breeding her back next week.
She'll stay on Regumate this year :yes:

I can recommend some good repro vets if you want to try again?

[pintopiaffe]

Oh, I'm so sorry. I was reading this through hoping for good news, based on Kathy's answers.

What a heartbreak for you. :(

She is a stunning mare.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Beautiful mare! Sorry to hear she slipped her foal. Last year I had two slip after 120 days if I remember correctly and another slipped earlier. Three foals in one year is unheard of for me (nearly 50%) Of course they had all been vaccinated so we tested them for Leptospirosis. Two came up positive with antibodies to Lepto but it could have been exposure years ago. Both of them absorbed their foals without any obvious signs. The good news is that both are now safely in foal again, one due in 2 months and the other in 2 1/2 months.

I would definitely recommend a bacterial and fungal culture, especially since she aborted or absorbed. You want to be sure she is clean. You should consider having her progesterone checked at 15 days when she is checked in foal to make sure she doesn't have a problem with that.

Do you have a very experienced reproductive equine vet?

[alliekat]

Hello . Thank you for all the words of encouragement. I do plan on breeding her back. I am going to have a biopsy done in 30 days. I did have her pregesterone(sp) checked this time. She was in the average range so I didn't suspect any issues with that. In the mean time I am going to take her to a few shows and show her in hand. I will just enjoy her for now and be thankful for what I still have:sadsmile:

[Equine Reproduction]

I would definitely recommend a bacterial and fungal culture, especially since she aborted or absorbed.

You want to be sure you have a cytology done with any culture you have done. It is wayyyy too easy to have a contaminated swab and the only way you will be sure is by doing a cytology .

You should consider having her progesterone checked at 15 days when she is checked in foal to make sure she doesn't have a problem with that.

By day 15, if your mare does have a low progesterone level, she will have already terminated the pregnancy. And, it requires multiple progesterone tests taken several times a day over several days to truly determine if a mare has an issue with low progesterone. There are other reasons to use progesterone supplementation, but it has been our experience that low progesterone levels are extremely unusual. Additionally, by placing a mare on supplemental progesterone that does not require it, you stand the very real potential of developing a mare that will require supplemental progesterone.

Sorry to hear your mare isn't pregnant, alliekat. Good luck this year.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[nsm]

Sorry Alliekat, sending jingles for the next time around. She is a stunning mare. Best of luck--Nancy