HB Shows ie: Sallie B. Wheeler/USEF... here we go again!

[SilverBalls]

I was told yesterday by a member on the USEF Hunter Breeding Committee that the judges for the Sallie B. Wheeler/USEF Hunter Breeding Championships are going to be Thom Brede and Tucker Ericson.
Personally I was disappointed to hear that Thom Brede was asked to officiate. Keep in mind that I have the utmost respect for Mr. Brede, but I am tired of seeing the same old faces judging hunter breeding. For example, Mr. Brede judged several major HB events in 2007 including Devon, Warrenton, and the IHF East Coast finals . In 2006, he judged the IHF finals in Kentucky and Upperville. Will the cycle repeat itself in 2009? I am not trying to be sarcastic, but make a relevant point that is of great concern to me.

Over the past several years I have embraced HB and have done my best to promote the sport and get my friends and fellow amateurs involved as well. What better way to search out future hunter/jumper stars...and have something to do during the the time they mature to performance age. I try to get anyone who will listen involved. BUT, I have met with so much resistance, and unfortunately the general consensus is HB is one of the most political venues in horse showing today. In some cases it is true. It should be a Program of Attraction, and in all honesty, HB is a tough sell.

I constantly hear that "new blood" is needed in HB. In my opinion, under the current pecking order if you will, the old guard still wants to control and manipulate HB shows. It's time for a change. It would be a wonderful thing if newer judges and handlers were given the same respect that those who have been doing this for a very long time... give each other.

The old saying "It costs just as much money to win as it does to loose" wouldn't need a spoonful of sugar going down if the HB playing field was level and free of pre-disposition. I stopped exhibiting my horses after Devon last year, and attended the remainder of the HB season as a spectator. I really felt that I would be wasting my money competing and paying for an opinion that was possibly missing objectivity...especially when I believed the classes were pinned long before I entered the ring. Again these are my feelings. I remember the years that there were 25-30 entries at Devon in the breeding classes... last year most classes had 6 entries if they were lucky. More and more shows are dropping breeding classes altogether, which is a shame. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, we all pay close attention these days as to who will be officiating. I know I do, and schedule my shows accordingly. I recall that Devon saw more HB entries in 2006 breeding classes than it did in 2007. I also anticipate Devon entries will soar this year. Coincidence ????

I know I am not going to win friends and influence enemies with this topic, but the hunter breeding committee has to take ALL aspects and desired results into account when making decisions that effect the USEF constituency. I love The Sallie B. Wheeler Championships, Warrenton and the IHF. This is not meant to attack anyone, but merely my way of trying to see if I am off base on this and how others feel. I am passionate about getting new people involved in this, but if they are going to constantly hit road blocks, they eventually will give up. Not everyone is as persistent and outspoken as I am. There are more judges to choose from than one might think. I would like to see HB regain some creditbility and appeal. My approach may be construed as harsh, but it is not meant to be... please believe that. I love this sport!

Respectfully,
Bill Rube

[Dinah-do]

Why would Devon entries be high this year? Just curious.

[SilverBalls]

Why would Devon entries be high this year? Just curious.

The 2 judges selected are in my opinion very fair and will "calls them likes they see's them"!
http://www.ryegate.com/SHOWS/Devon/plist.pdf

I have sent this letter to the USHJA, The USEF, and the IHF.

I know there are many people out there that fear some sort of retaliation if they buck the system. The system needs a good bucking! ;)
Am I wrong? :confused:

[lauriep]

No, you are spot on. The question is HOW to change the old guard.

[SilverBalls]

No, you are spot on. The question is HOW to change the old guard.

We the people and exhibitors are the only ones who can do so ... how about a good old fashioned boycott?

The "Old Guard" are a great bunch of horsepeople, but VERY resistant to change. They should step back and look at the fallout from last year alone.

Is it conceivable that one person can have the Best Young Horse at Devon for 20+ years in a row? Maybe I am wrong... but if the old guard really loved the sport and wanted to encourage "newbies" to get involved, they sure have a funny way of showing encouragement.
Maybe I am just beating my head against the wall... now I'll never get a ribbon after opening this can of worms! :eek:

[talloaks]

Is it conceivable that one person can have the Best Young Horse at Devon for 20+ years in a row? :eek:

Dang, this is a repeat since something ate my last reponse. SilverBalls, are you suggesting it is the breeder or the handler who has won the Best Young Horse at Devon for over 20 years?? Will you name names??? You can always send me a PM if you would be more comfortable.

[Albion]

It's not a secret that Kenny Wheeler has owned/been holding the reins of Devon's BYH for 30+ years. Why would that be an uncomfortable statement to make? Regardless of why people think that is, it's verifiable fact. But aren't the horses frequently purchased & not bred by Cismont Manor?

[PineTreeFarm]

Dang, this is a repeat since something ate my last reponse. SilverBalls, are you suggesting it is the breeder or the handler who has won the Best Young Horse at Devon for over 20 years?? Will you name names??? You can always send me a PM if you would be more comfortable.

It's public information Talloaks. Available from USEF's website.
Cismont Manor Farm, Kenneth Wheeler.

And no, SB isn't suggesting a breeder won 20+ years in a row.

Some Hunter judges see no point in paying for a license for another division (and attending more clinics) so they just don't bother to get licensed for this division. Some areas of the country don't have HB classes.
So it becomes a cycle. If you get a license you may not get any judging jobs as everyone wants a big name judge and there just aren't that many to cover all the major events without a few repeats every 2-3 years.

I agree with SB but have no idea what can be done to change things short of giving an HB license automatically to every Hunter judge and not letting judges do a major HB competition unless 3 years have elapsed since they judged at that show last.

[lauriep]

I don't think Cismont has bred anything for many years.

[sugarlobo]

hello Silver Bells,

I know you are from NJ and our hunter breeding is going down the tubes. If we do not have any help in the next few weeks all the state money will be gone. How about helping on the state level?? We are the only state that gets state money for our homebreds. Do you care? I am putting you on the line!!!

[talloaks]

What happened to the funds for breeding that Virginia had years ago??? Has it been cancelled??? If I remember correctly it was matching funds for futurities.

[VirginiaBred]

Speaking as a Pony Breeder and as a former Board of Directors / VPBA, the state of Virginia stopped matching funds years ago. State decision, unfortunately.

[coriander]

Another problem, economically, with finding a "new guard" of hunter breeding judges is the large number of shows that do not offer the division. Thus even those judges who spend the money to obtain a hunter breeding card may have difficulty keeping it, because so many of the shows they judge don't offer the division. I know 2 "R" judges who had hunter breeding cards, but did not get enough judging jobs that included judging hunter breeding to keep the card. So it's going to be a big task, and that's another factor to consider if you haven't already.

[phoebe05]

SB I think you are 100% correct in bringing up and making a stink about issues like this. I suppose the down side, more than maybe your youngsters not getting a ribbon is that shows will just stop having the classes. The only HB classes we have on the West Coast are in Southern California and I am quite sure that Tish Q. is the reason since she or her youngsters are the ones filling the classes. For the rest of us the thought of sticking a 1,2 or 3yr old on a trailer for up to 2 days to be seen in one or if called back for BYH 2 classes is just not worth it.
I think the root of the problem is there are so few shows that offer the classes and the ones that do are high profile enough that they want a name brand judge to judge it. If we want HB to really take off I see show managers holding just HB shows( yes East Coast has Devon) and many more of them to increase the need for more judges and a large pool of judges to pull from. I know that if there were any of these shows in my area I would support them and I am sure there are a lot of others who would do the same. Combine it with DB if you want but get rid of anything other than a 3 and 4 yr old US, if it is a show combined with dressage then have an US then have one for dressage and one for hunters or maybe have dressage day on Sat. and hunter day on Sunday whatever there are enough options.

[3Dogs]

Phoebe - there are some hunter breeding classes in Northern Cal - not a lot, but a few - intend to send my yearling to a couple in May. Does seem the southern shows are dominated by one or two breeders :D

As for Kenny - doesn't breed them, doesn't even know their breeding - and pretty much stays in his own backyard (where success is pretty much guaranteed :D).

I think someone brought up the question of why the regular hunter judges can't do hunter breeding as well. Certainly would open up the pool of available judges.

[SilverBalls]

This is about the same judges pinning the same horses, oops I mean the same owners and handlers. One hand washes the other... do I have it right?
It seems the "old guard" is in it to win with no regard for anyone else. This is the same crew who wants the horse to jog and not TROT. How can you truly evaluate a horse unless tou see it move? And I don't mean a few steps ;)

While Thom Brede is a great person, he brings nothing to the table in the way of change, and quite frankly there is nothing wrong with that... just give someone else a chance who really wants it! What is the old guard afraid of... a level playing field where the best horse can win? That they may not be holding the winner?

There are MANY HB judges out there, but the powers that be, the ones who make the decisions about who will officiate, are not assured of that blue ribbon if one of their buddies is not holding the clipboard. I for one am tired of some people getting high ribbons no matter what is on the other end of the reins. We ALL know there are other horses in the line up that deserve to be the winner is some cases.

There is no delicate way to address this issue, so it's best to put all the judges cards on the table ( no pun intended ) and change things before it's too late.

I am sorry the New Jersey program is loosing it's state funding in a few weeks. Did anyone ever stop and think why people lost interest and got away from showing in the HB in New Jersey? Could it be because of all the manipulative control by those in charge afraid of change?
Let this be an example of what happens when "new blood" with fresh ideas are discouraged. This happens when change is supressed and stifled. Think about it... :winkgrin:

I applaud Tish Quirk and her tireless efforts to keep HB afloat. She is the first person to help, guide, and mentor people entering the world of Hunter Breeding. If more were like her, we would not be having this conversation.

And maybe, just maybe if things changed with the times... more shows would offer hunter breeding. The North American Breeding programs are amazing, and they are loosing the most in the end.

[Blonde Filly]

Silverballs/Bill remember me saying you can pin a class before they even enter the ring or you even see the horses???? I think you are seeing it first hand now. This was going on 20 years ago and from the start of time actually.

I will never forget one year at Upperville, I was standing with a client of mine who had purchased an Art Deco filly from me..she had one her class and was in for best young horse..they jogged, we all could see very well and when they pinned the class she gasped out loud..."oh my god how could that horse win over mine..it's LAME!" Everyone rushed over to hush her up...since we all knew who would win...three legged lame and the DMSO was in the air!!!!! SAW it with my own two eyes and so did everyone else!! I don't think it will ever change either. It is rare when they do buck the system and an outside wins a class...I did last year and I was shocked not because I felt my horse was not worthy, but because I don't have political pull and I'm not one of the elite famous and wealthy.

This is a sad fact in HB and I don't see it changing anytime soon...30 year of best young horse is going to be hard to break the cycle! :mad:

[lauriep]

I counted the HB judges last year and there are about 100, IIRC. And yet, we out here, with all the shows we have, keep seeing the same faces over and over, ad nauseum.

I think it is $$, at least for the smaller shows. They want to get someone fairly local, particularly if the judge is only doing HB. I also know that when a show like Devon hires a judge, they get a lot of, um, feedback from the HB committee about who they hire, which makes it even more difficult to hire different faces.

And a board member of IHF told me that they oftentimes get to 4th and 5th choices before someone will agree to do it.

I feel your pain, Left Coasters, but don't know what to tell you. You are so spread out that to get enough breeders together in an area to approach a show manager with guaranteed entry would be pretty tough. And show managers aren't going to start offering something that they feel they can't fill. You have some lovely horses out there (and I am including the Arizona and Colorado areas, too) and nowhere to show them.

[MagicRoseFarm]

All the drama and screwed up points last year did not help the situation either...

[TQ]

I have worked very hard to encourage Hunter Breeding in California. I believe in Hunter Breeding. I think it is a very good beginning for the young horses. They learn to go to the show and have a pleasant experience and be back home in the grass after a brief visit to the show. It is a good place for breeders to show off the quality of their young horses. I worked very hard to get the Sallie B. Wheeler/USEF National Hunter Breeding Championship to include the West Coast. I am very proud of the success of the event and the increase of interest and participation in it.

I show a lot of excellent young horses. They do well and they showcase the quality of my bloodlines. I also do everything I can to encourage other owners and breeders to participate. I work very hard to get every class at the championship sponsored so that there will be prize money and lovely awards for the participants. I host parties for all of the participants and sponsors. I organize educational presentations so new people can learn and be encouraged to learn and participate. I bring some horses that I know will not win because I believe it is a good experience for the young horses and I want to support the division. I bring horses that are not from my bloodline so that their owners can enjoy the participation and learn from the experience. And I am certainly not there alone! There are some excellent breeders and handlers in California and every ribbon awarded is well earned.

I am aware that there are things that need to improve and I serve on the committees in order to try to implement those improvements. As Laurie and VB have said, it is not as easy as giving Hunter Breeding cards to every Hunter judge. Young horses are not exactly the same as mature conformation horses.

Any and all constructive suggestions are very welcome. Bashing Hunter Breeding is not welcome. I love this division and I am very proud of the work we are doing and success of my horses.

[TQ]

I can't figure out how to edit my post.
I do want to add that I know SB is not bashing Hunter Breeding. He loves it and works hard to promote it. He is addressing a problem that has been discussed in many forums. I just want to stress the fact that there is also a lot of good in Hunter Breeding and I don't want these discussions to go in a direction that might cause show managers and breeders and owners to abandon this lovely and useful division.

[SilverBalls]

I do want to add that I know SB is not bashing Hunter Breeding. He loves it and works hard to promote it. He is addressing a problem that has been discussed in many forums. I just want to stress the fact that there is also a lot of good in Hunter Breeding and I don't want these discussions to go in a direction that might cause show managers and breeders and owners to abandon this lovely and useful division.

TQ, you are a person to look up to. Personally, I think this discussion will only help people who are interested in Hunter Breeding see that there is some light at the end of the tunnel. Change takes time, and it has to start somewhere. I always say... persistance over-rides resistance.

I hope this topic is not taken lightly. In the end it will be the breeders that suffer.

Pride needs to be set aside, and a new direction needs to emerge that benefits everyone. :cool:

[PineTreeFarm]

I just want to stress the fact that there is also a lot of good in Hunter Breeding and I don't want these discussions to go in a direction that might cause show managers and breeders and owners to abandon this lovely and useful division.

I'm sure you already know this but it's almost impossible to get show managers to add this division to their shows.
It would be nice if some one day shows would include it because a smaller show makes it less expensive for the exhibitor and less stressful for the young horses.
Because almost half the HB judges live in PA,VA or FL it gets too expensive to 'import' a judge so the managers don't want to do this division.
And some managers don't want to touch this stuff with a ten foot pole after last year's 'disappearing points' fiasco.
So if you want the division to grow it needs to be available at 'grass roots' type shows not just the super expensive Big Name shows.
So I'm not sure you should worry about it being abandoned at the 'special' shows, how about figuring out a way to encourage it at new shows.

[SilverBalls]

It would be nice if some one day shows would include it because a smaller show makes it less expensive for the exhibitor and less stressful for the young horses.

And some managers don't want to touch this stuff with a ten foot pole after last year's 'disappearing points' fiasco.

So I'm not sure you should worry about it being abandoned at the 'special' shows, how about figuring out a way to encourage it at new shows.

I totally agree PTF. Good ideas. I do however disagree that the "point fiasco" was that big of a deal. The horses on top, stayed on top I think. HB should abolish the 2 judge/double point classes. And if they insist in doing this, seperate the judges! This whole double point stuff has been a subject of controversy for years. In my opinion it should not be allowed.

BTW, Many times I show my A/O horse in front of 2-3 judges at a big show.... do we get double points for that? :confused: The answer is NO!

[okggo]

I don't know any more about hunter breeding then my limited personal experiences and observations, but why is it, and what would it take to mandate that the judges do score cards?

I quit doing hunter shows of any sort over 10 years ago because of the politics, I remember one show where the Champion o/f actually FELL OFF her horse. Mine (a jumper at heart) may have been going around like a bat out of he!! but at least I stayed on him!

Anyway, I decided to give a hunter breed show a shot in 06 and did a breed specific HBS in 07. The '06 show reminded me of why I hated it, an ignorant self righteous judge who was friends with the winner and might as well have pinned blind folded. '07 I felt some of the same bitterness, but it was split 50/50 as the judge at least seemed better, 50% that he did in FACT know the winners and 50% if there was any merit to the placings, what was it? A guy in the ring with me actually stormed out cursing like a sailor who stubbed his toe. And I actually agreed with his rant, although maybe not the way it was presented, as his horse was MUCH nicer than a couple that pinned above him. We asked why one in particular who was gangly as all get out beat this filly, and the answer was that this was the top horse at an earlier show and that he was obviously in a bad growth spurt. But aren't they supposed to judge what they see THAT DAY?

Anyway, again sorry for the rant to get to my point, as somebody who has written off HB altogether, at the LEAST if I had some kind of score card to show why just maybe things were pinned the way they were (and granted they can give creative marks) feelings wouldn't be rubbed so far the wrong way? Most people would accept their placements better if they at least knew why, or could feel in part that it was not 100% biased from the get-go.

[SilverBalls]

Anyway, again sorry for the rant to get to my point, as somebody who has written off HB altogether, at the LEAST if I had some kind of score card to show why just maybe things were pinned the way they were (and granted they can give creative marks) feelings wouldn't be rubbed so far the wrong way? Most people would accept their placements better if they at least knew why, or could feel in part that it was not 100% biased from the get-go.

Your observations and feelings are unfortunately true. I only wish you would stick with it. Please don't give up... you are just as important as anyone else out there.
I urge anyone else who is sitting on the "fence of HB participation" to jump in with both feet. Give it your best shot. :yes:

[Edgewood]

Your observations and feelings are unfortunately true. I only wish you would stick with it. Please don't give up... you are just as important as anyone else out there.
I urge anyone else who is sitting on the "fence of HB participation" to jump in with both feet. Give it your best shot. :yes:

Well, I am going to try. I haven't tried since 2002 when I took a filly (who only went to 1 show prior) to Devon. She did relatively well (placed 7th out of 15+ horses) with Ralph Miller handling (I do know that he was a well know handler and judge).

I am trying again this year with this filly (using Jill Manno).
http://mysite.verizon.net/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=560&linkpath=http://mysite.verizon.net/vze85onr/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/DSC_0535.JPG.w560h495.jpg&target=tlx_pic7zqd&title=2007%20Hanoverian%20%20filly%20by%20Fabuleux

I will let you after the season ends in PA this year how I feel...

[BBowen]

This is an interesting topic. I have personally avoided the HB ring with my filly but I have shown in the DSHB classes. Basically, I do not care for HB since there is no score card, and no way of knowing what your horse's strenghths and weaknesses are on that day against other horses. My girl is probably better bred for HB, but I prefer having a bit more information on why one horse is placed over another on a given day.

I have observed the HB classes in our area and bascially, the horses are led in, stood up, trotted and pinned. Takes only a few minutes. Sometimes I agree with the placings and other times I just end up scratching my head.

[au_panda]

SB, I had a clinic with a nationally known HJ trainer and judge this past weekend. The summary of our conversation about desired attributes in hunters was a little sad to me, as I too really enjoy the HB. The statement was along the lines that conformation wins won't sell a hunter and that HB wins are basically not interesting to buying trainers. In this person's opinion, if anything, HB, and the IHF in particularly, indicate to this trainer that too much has been done with the youngster too soon. Buying trainers want a horse that is essentially trained, best age 5 or 6, will win over fences (as in, great mind, big slow step, great form etc etc,). Good conformation and good looks are only icing on the cake. I also heard, for what seemed like the millionth time, "how many of these HB/IHF horses really go on to successful hunter careers - these horses are used up by the age of 5". We see this comment over and over on this board - do they really not go on to success? If they don't go on to success, then HB, as it has and is being judged, is not predictive of success and the judging standard needs to be changed in addition to the other changes you are seeking.

If this is the context of HB as viewed by non-participating hunter/jumper trainer/judges, how are we going to get new judging blood? It seems to make HB a separate galaxy in the universe of hunters. So, maybe the currently licensed judges are the only ones available because they're the only ones that value HB? In this context, it seems that HB will remain a fairly small community. And... everyone will know everyone, there will be a hierarchy, politics, etc etc.

So, what do we (breeders and owners of young prospects) really gain economically from spending the significant amount of $'s it takes to participate in HB? Apparently very little, if anything. Personal satisfaction and fun does not a business plan make.

[DMK]

I've spent a few years in the smaller HB shows in Zone 4, showing a few young horses. Some I thought were very good on the line, others I thought would be great performance horses, but not just "blossoming" at the right time to do their best on the line (and of course the one I thought had the best of both world ended up with a scar on her ankle :rolleyes: ). Either way, it was a good experience for all of them, especially if you don't fall into the feed and lead trap and treat the line as the be all end all of the horse's career rather than a good way to expose the young horse to the show world and/or potential buyers.

However, I have certainly trotted in under quite a few judges, some of them the old guard and some newer to the game. I m almost never surprised by the old guard's decisions. I may not always agree with them - I'll take an awesome neck/shoulder with a longish back over a short topline with a short but correct neck every day (assuming all else is equal), but that's a preference that can be argued to the death. I don't begrudge a judge with a different opinion. But some of the newer people? Most charitably, I can say it seems more work needs to go into education before passing out HB cards. On less charitable days I wonder if cards come in cereal boxes.

As for movement in an HB class, that is tricky subject. Sure you want that horse with the ideal gait to be the winner, but we aren't even showing them the horse's live or die by gait, their canter. How many great trots are there with sucky canters? Quite a few, so it's almost but not quite a moot point. In my mind when you walk into the class you need to pass the type and correctness test first. As was always pointed out to us in collegiate judging, "It might be the best example of a draft horse on the planet, it doesn't matter, it goes to the bottom of a hunter class - it lacks type." So true. Type and then conformation (balance, correctness) should trump all else. Sure, a good moving, poorly put together horse can prove himself in the performance ring, and may even have the last laugh there, but most likely as a gelding.

And the system is set up to show a horse who looks the part and jumps the part, although it isn't used for that anymore. It's pretty obvious the conformations have become the place bad jumpers go to get respectable ribbons, and that is a shame, because that is the ultimate performance test. You jump your jumps and you only get to stand in the line to be evaluated for type and conformation after you have done the job well. I can't think of another sport that has such an elegant system of judging conformation on an ongoing basis. If you think about it, it is the perfect extension to the line, a place to validate the beauty contest the young horses go through.

I'd rather see HB stay mostly as it is, with maybe less weight given to the feed and lead side of the equation, and somehow find a way to make the conformations be where the best jumping horses go to see if they are the most desirable type as well.

[sugarlobo]

SB The state is not taking away the money. The problem is there is no one to run the association. Do you want to be President??? Vice President?? Board of Director??

[MagicRoseFarm]

Double Judged shows can still work to the benefit of HB.

Held in separate rings , following each other like two separate divisions. IF exhibitors know WHO is judging prior,,, it could be very interesting seeing which exhibitors enter and show under both judges , and which are discriminate and with which judges.

[popsy]

I have been involved in Hunter Breeding for over 30 years and on the Hunter Breeding Committee since its inception. Everyone on this committe volunteers their time and efforts and I applaud and greatly appreciate all of them for their support and interest. We are always open to new suggestions and try to encourage new people to become involved and Horse Shows to include the H.B. As everyone knows change is slow in any aspect of the horse world and there is a right and a wrong way to ask for it. As is referred to "The Old Guard" is interested in new opinions and constructive suggestions. Everyone on this committee has brought wonderful suggestions to the table, many that have come from exhibitors in their area. Over the years younger members have been added to the committee but often do not continue to participate due to lack of time or interest.
As for the topic of judges: As was mentioned earlier ther are over 100 judges with their HB Card. Horse Show management has many names to choose from but they do not always get their top picks as many judges are booked 2 and 3 years in advance. Care should be taken in criticizing judges and we all need to remember we go to shows knowing we are there for that judges opinion on that day. If there are certain judges who do not care for your horse in HB or Performance perhaps it is better to stay home that day rather than go and gripe: there is always another Horse Show. We all like to see new judges getting involved but hope they come with knowledge and experience required to judge what is in front of them, as many of the older, more experienced judges have.
As T.Q. said I love the Hunter Breeding and believe it has a lot to offer for all. It is a wonderful way to introdue young horses to the Show World and for breeders and owners to show off their quality young horses. I too hope more people will become involved and more Horse Shows will add the H.B to their event.
I hope this discussion will continue in a positive direction to encourage more Horse Shows to add The HB and new faces to get involved.
The same is true in all of life, "YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE WORLD IN A DAY"


Raymond M. Francis
President of USHJA/USEF Hunter Breeding Committee

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

I too hope more people will become involved and more Horse Shows will add the H.B to their event.
I hope this discussion will continue in a positive direction to encourage more Horse Shows to add The HB and new faces to get involved.
The same is true in all of life, "YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE WORLD IN A DAY"


Great post. So I am curious, what would be some good ways to become more involved in Hunter Breeding?

[SilverBalls]

I am glad Mr. Francis spoke up. The intent of my post was to bring a concern I share with others to the forefront. I personally expressed my displeasure when I was told who was judging the Sallie B Wheeler this year. I asked who made the decision, and was informed the HB committee did.

I decided to send the letter I posted here to the HB committees at the USEF/USHJA/and the IHF, and also to a large majority of the HB community. I wholeheartedly agree that many people put in a tireless efforts to volunteer on the various committees, and I applaud their efforts. However, I will not feel guilty for expressing an opinion that I share with many others... that of course being we are tired of seeing the same judge over and over. I know I put in countless volunteer hours too, and have been involved showing horses in various capacities for 40 years. I am not going to debate who does more.... :no:

I guess it wouldn't matter that much it the competitions were not the IHF East/West, The Sallie B. Wheeler Championships, The IHF finals, Devon, Upperville, and Warrenton. These are the "crown jewels" of hunter breeding. In my opinion the same people should not be asked to officiate over and over, year after year. I have a hard time believing all 100 HB judges are that booked, but be that as it may.
I quote "If there are certain judges who do not care for your horse in HB or Performance perhaps it is better to stay home that day rather than go and gripe: there is always another Horse Show". It's the cavalier remarks of this nature that are disappointing.

But another horse show is not the caliber of the above mentioned competitions. We all strive and dream of having a horse worthy of competing in these venues.

Ray Francis and Thom Brede are amazing horseman, and I respect them more than they will even know. I will continue to question things and voice my opinion. I feel this discussion is very positive, and I am also receiving very positive feedback on a personal level.
Again this is not meant to disrespect anyone... just help us all to look "outside the box".

And like Mr. Francis also said earlier, "YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE WORLD IN A DAY"... BUT YOU CAN AT LEAST TRY TO MAKE AN EFFORT!

There goes any chance on my horses getting ribboins I guess. That's the price you pay for "griping'. I too would like to know some more ways I could get involved in Hunter Breeding....

[3Dogs]

All discussions around this topic are excellent!

For Mr. Francis, how then do we go about changing certain perceptions about hunter breeding - as au panda posted, many of us have felt, rightly or wrongly, that hunter breeding does not relate substantively to the production of future hunters.

For starters, could we not work diligently to have a tracking system for the these winners on the line, if only to dispel a commonly held perception by most (of my) hunter trainers that HB is NOT good preparation nor appropriate evaluation of our future hunters. If we truly believe this is not the case, we need to figure out how to adjust the mindset of many who believe it IS the case. And if it is shown that our current hunter breeding evaluations are out of kilter with what makes a great 'showing" hunter, then the standards and methods by which we evaluate young "hunter prospects" needs to change.
As an aside, I had a well known handler tell me that a young horse I was looking at for purchase, beautifully bred and gorgeous in my eyes, would never make it on the line because his "ears were too big". Should that be a factor in evaluating a great hunter prospect or a factor in hunter breeding judging? (I bought him!: - consider his ears great for lift :lol:)
The numbers in hunter breeding currently are not so enormous that a registry number could not be given that stays with the horse as it matures? I am just thinking out of the box here.


As for "there is always another show" - well, not really. In certain regions, there are very few shows with hunter breeding. Elect to miss one due to, again, perception that the odds are stacked heavily in favor of certain exhibitors, one can wait months before another show, remotely in one's area, that has a hunter breeding class. I don't know how much someone like you can influence managers around this dilemma. I feel their pain when I have gone to shows with HB and maybe 2 horses show up for these classes. It is definitely a complex problem.


I wish the best for hunter breeding - and appreciate efforts by you and TQ to preserve and improve this venue.

[SilverBalls]

All discussions around this topic are excellent!
For Mr. Francis, how then do we go about changing certain perceptions about hunter breeding - as au panda posted, many of us have felt, rightly or wrongly, that hunter breeding does not relate substantively to the production of future hunters.

As for "there is always another show" - well, not really. In certain regions, there are very few shows with hunter breeding. Elect to miss one due to, again, perception that the odds are stacked heavily in favor of certain exhibitors, one can wait months before another show, remotely in one's area, that has a hunter breeding class.

Exactly.

[Mel0309]

"Double Judged shows can still work to the benefit of HB.

Held in separate rings , following each other like two separate divisions. IF exhibitors know WHO is judging prior,,, it could be very interesting seeing which exhibitors enter and show under both judges , and which are discriminate and with which judges"


We have double judged shows here in Florida. There are judged separatly (most of the time) and I think you have to show under both judges. Luckily we don't have too many politics in the HB here as we breeders show our own for the most part. Makes it a more level playing field, IMO.

[Oakmont Sporthorses]

As a breeder, competitor, and applicant judge (H/HE/HB/J), I would like to add my opinion to the mix.

When it comes to looking at the HB rings as a producer of future performance horses, I think we need to look not only at the breeders, but the PRODUCERS of our young horses from 3 to 6 yrs.; I don't think that we can say that judging is the problem. Judging young horses is a bit of a gamble in any way you look at it...and conformation/movement in a yearling is certainly not a guarantor of ability...but merely indicates the potential for that animal to be an athletic, sound, durable horse who is a pleasure to ride.

The majority of the "hunters" in this country are imported warmbloods that were bred overseas for either the jumper or dressage rings, and simply didn't make the grade for either area. They moved well enough and/or jumped well enough to be sold to the US as a hunter, and arrived here, in many cases, already jumping courses of good size, with decent flatwork in place. How many Baby Green Hunters do you see that are 6- or 7-yr-olds that were jumping 1.0 -1.20 m courses overseas? Quite a few. They may not have any ground manners, or any clue how to stand for a farrier, etc., but many know how to carry themselves and jump around a course. For many of these horses, a decent trainer with no real knowledge of producing a young horse can get them going as a hunter suitable for a junior/amateur to show and get the points. But if you take a top 3-yr-old from our HB rings, get it green broke by someone, and get it sold as a prospect, does it really have the same "chance" of success when it is probably sold through an agent, and another agent, to a student (who may or may not be talented enough to deal with a young, green horse), who may decide to change to another trainer, etc., with little consistency in training? I'm not saying this as a blanket statement, and it is obviously a generalization, but I think it is fair to say that the United States, as a country, does not have a good system of producing young horses (for any Olympic sport, really, although dressage seems to be making substantial progress, whereas eventing is quite behind several countries overseas). Most of our top professionals buy their young horses as 5-7 yr olds overseas...how many have the patience and knowledge to produce the same horse from a 3-yr-old?

[Jesse'sMom]

WOW~ I LOVE this thread- i thing the OP was really spot on & kudos for your courage to post.
I wish it were more like the DSHB shows, only 3 scores needed from at least 2 different judges- so you cant just go after the same judge.
maybe if HB were more like DSHB it would be alot less demanding on the yougsters if you only needed 3 scores and you are SCORED, so you can see the actual reasons why your horse place 1-2-3-4, compared to personal preference, personal relationships or color choices.

[pwynnnorman]

While I respect Mr. Francis coming on and providing his perspective, there is something that, IMO, the "old guard" may just not quite get, as is illustrated by his "there's always another show" comment: PERCEPTION.

We've acknowledged this point before, I think. There is reality and there is perception. Which is more important? PERCEPTION. And thus it is perception that needs to be respected and addressed, possibly by changing the reality as well.

The fact is that the majority of people "see" too much politics in HB and that participation in decisionmaking is a closed shop. These are not perceptions that can be changed from the outside. Only those inside can change what is seen. This is a fact. "What is seen" is not the same as "What is." But that is not the point.

Those on the inside must be willing to change the perception of this division. There are plenty of ways to do that, but the will must come first.

[lauriep]

At last we completely agree on something.

[SilverBalls]

While I respect Mr. Francis coming on and providing his perspective, there is something that, IMO, the "old guard" may just not quite get, as is illustrated by his "there's always another show" comment: PERCEPTION.

We've acknowledged this point before, I think. There is reality and there is perception. Which is more important? PERCEPTION. And thus it is perception that needs to be respected and addressed, possibly by changing the reality as well.

The fact is that the majority of people "see" too much politics in HB and that participation in decisionmaking is a closed shop. These are not perceptions that can be changed from the outside. Only those inside can change what is seen. This is a fact. "What is seen" is not the same as "What is." But that is not the point.

Those on the inside must be willing to change the perception of this division. There are plenty of ways to do that, but the will must come first.

I must concur with Laurie... I too agree 100%. Thank-you

[VirginiaBred]

Too frequently the doubled judged shows reflect no difference from the selected two judges. I've seen it happen over and over; they get their heads together and pin the 2nd division exactly (or almost so) like the first.

I despise double judging for that very reason.

[Dinah-do]

Just my $.02 worth. Like the above I love HB or in Canada I love the young horse line classes - call them what you will. Love to see lovely young horses float across the ring and I know the ammount of work to get there. But... recently a book was published by Randy Roy (Canadian judge) "You be the Judge". Page 185 (if you have the book) are three horses to pin for a model class. I know all three horses well and not one has ever shown over fences and if anything were famous for being bad jumpers. These and other pictures in this chapter are ancient pictures. Surely better pictures are available. To me this is lack of respect for the division...by a senior judge. In this area a few breeders tried hard to bring HB classes to bigger shows (hell any show). It is fustrationg as open card rings can go all day and young horses just dont hang out for hours in the hot sun waiting for a judge and empty ring. Hugely time consumming. That plus all the fees to show one class are discouraging. I can haul to a local schooling show for free or a few dollars and hang out for a while then mosey home.

[TrueColours]

I think that show organizers have got to have the foresight to look ahead and realize that with the economy being as soft as it is right now, they need to give the exhibitors MORE for their money to entice them to continue supporting the shows, and IMO, that means MORE double point shows and not less. I would by far have less wear and tear on my horse AND my wallet, by showing under 2 judges at the same venue and getting double the bang for my buck ...

And yes - I believe it should be mandated that these 2 judges dont talk, dont compare notes, dont even walk up and down the same side of the ring together ... one starts at the head of the line and one of the tail end, they cross in the middle and they compile their results which are then handed in separately.

If it can be clearly viewed by the spectators that there is NO collusion, no discussion going on, it will convey the image that it is truly 2 independant judges judging that class

Perhaps instead of the show organizers having 2 very well established judges judging the show, it might be very interesting to shoot for one established judge and one "newbie" and then sit back and see how the results may differ between the 2 of them ... :) ... and if at all possible, with one of them being from out of the area as well ...

[PineTreeFarm]

I'm opposed to the double point shows. They only reward those individuals who are out for points and nothing else.
A mediocre horse can get the same number of points in one of the double point classes as a better horse that showed in a show with double the exhibitors.
The rules do specify that the double point classes are to be judged as separate classes but the two judges are in the same ring and I'm not sure there is any way to prevent conversation between the judges.

[VirginiaBred]

The rules do specify that the double point classes are to be judged as separate classes but the two judges are in the same ring and I'm not sure there is any way to prevent conversation between the judges.

I haven't seen it. It's not fair to the exhibitor.

It's the same with Futurities that pay for a separate judge, and the judge hired for the show invites the Futurity judge back to Judge with them. I've seen that also.

[TrueColours]

I wonder why the double judge system works well for AQHA and APHA halter classes and it seems to be such an unmitigated disaster for HB???:confused:

AQHA and APHA people have a lot at stake with their halter points as well (monetarily and future breeding revenues combined) and there have never been any whispers let alone any screams of wrongdoing in those venues

And in all fairness as well, the only double point shows were the Futurities and the Championship shows - everything else throughout the year was single point only ...

Why can it work so well in those classes but not in HB???

[TQ]

The double judged shows have been discussed several times. In areas where there are many Hunter Breeding judges living nearby it seems to be popular. In our area, with a limited number of HB judges nearby, it is a bigger problem. Show management has to pay the cost of travel and accomodation as well as judging fees. If they bring in one judge who is good at Hunter Breeding and can also do a very good job of judging performance Hunters and Equitation they have done a good job for the overall show and all of the exhibitors. If they have to bring in two judges from across the country in order to have a double judged class, they are adding to their expenses and may not get the judges they would prefer for the performance divisons. Obviously, they need to hire the judges who excell in judging the biggest classes. I appreciate it very much when West Coast show managers put in the extra effort to hire judges who can do HB as well as performance. There is no way they are going to double that effort for very many of their shows. So, I think the double judged shows make a very uneven playing field. Since part of the point of taking young horses to the Hunter Breeding classes is to give them experience, remember that they will get twice as much experience if they go to two shows to get two sets of points.

I think the score card that is available to the exhibitors is also a very popular idea with a great educational value.

[SilverBalls]

I'm opposed to the double point shows. They only reward those individuals who are out for points and nothing else.
A mediocre horse can get the same number of points in one of the double point classes as a better horse that showed in a show with double the exhibitors.
The rules do specify that the double point classes are to be judged as separate classes but the two judges are in the same ring and I'm not sure there is any way to prevent conversation between the judges.

I couldn't have said it better myself. And trust me, the judges chat up a storm amongst each other. It's really interesting when the horses return for BYH and the pinning order changes from the original line up... forgetful :eek: confused :confused: or pressure :mad:... we'll never know. :winkgrin:

I think the responsibility directly falls on show management, and possibly the steward to enforce or make the rules if you will... Is there any USEF/USHJA mandates that state the judges cannot converse and compare notes in this double point/double judge venue specific to HB classes and shows?

And I agree with TQ, that this "double standard" of showing does create an uneven playing field. I believe it was originated here on the east coast possibly for that very reason... who knows...

Bottom Line... let's make it consistent and fair for all. Once again make it a program of attraction.

[TrueColours]

TQ - interesting ... I guess I am looking at it purely from an "East Coast Perspective" and really had no idea til now that the West Coast exhibitors fall so far behind the 8 Ball as you dont have the luxury of having a double point system at as many shows as the east coast exhibitors do ... or at ANY shows at all - period!

So I wonder if the AQHA/APHA model is followed instead - double points at shows like the Sallie B Wheeler only where both east coast and west can participate on equal footing

Its funny - up til now I really felt that the double point shows WERE a great thing to have in place for exhibitors, and I had NO idea that if I was a West Coast competitor, I would be furious as it would no longer be a level playing field or even close to it any longer. Since I never checked the Prize Lists for any WC shows, I had no idea at all that everything was tilted a lot in favor of the EC exhibitors with the double point system...

[Duffy]

At last we completely agree on something.

:D Yup! Me too! :D

[Duffy]

Also, around my neck of the woods, IMHO, there are plenty of other divisions to "carry the load" of bringing in some "new blood" HB judges to MORE than pay for these judges - until the HB carries it's own.

[chunky munky]

I posted an opinion on the Offcourse web site regarding the HB division. sorry, but I am a slow typist. Please go there and view my post.

[TQ]

TC, that is the good thing about these discussions. We can get a look at the other areas and how the decisions affect them. If you look at the USEF HB point standings and look at the number of shows attended, you will see that most of the west coast horses attend far fewer shows....part of that is the fact the only double point show in our area last year was the Sallie B. Wheeler. I think it will be the same this year.

Some people on the east coast thought they were doing double point shows and, based on those double points, they were leading the nation with their Just The Best filly. By the time it was all over and several double point shows lost their double point status, that filly was down a placing or two in the national standings. That didn't keep her from winning at the IHF Finals. But, you can imagine how frustrating it was to pay the fees and lead the standings and then have it taken away at the very end of the year.

Some show managers were very upset about the double points being taken away. They thought they had done everything right. When the points disappeared the managers felt that their exhibitors would feel that show management had let them down. The exhibitors who won the double points thought they had done everything right. And then the points disappeared. Not a good thing for anyone. Maybe it would be better to do away with double points except at the Sallie B. Wheeler championship.

[3Dogs]

ah, well, TQ - sorry the filly was edged out, but I had heard it affected a number of folks, so I am sure there are others who were disappointed.

I am less concerned myself with double points - or single points - more concerned with the credibility of the system in general. As of now, the system appears dominated by a handful of repeat players, with a small cadre of handlers, with only a few shows in many regions, with a judging system that seems overly political, and with the attitude of many trainers that the young stars of "hunter breeding" are not the future stars of the hunter "show" ring. While I do think training of young horses is an issue, it is not THE issue, in my opinion, as to why the last attitude exists. I know many fine young horse trainers who would gladly take on a star in the making at 3 or 4. And with the sinking dollar, we now have a golden opportunity to sell "within"!

Agree with whoever posted that the "fix" needs to start from inside the hunter breeding community to make it relevant, attractive and enticing for those of us committed to breeding and raising hunter youngsters. Lots of good ideas have been promoted here.

[TQ]

The Plaid Horse currently runs a section called Then and Now. It is supposed to show Hunter Breeding stars who have grown into performance stars. Since anyone can send in their photos, there are some who are lovely, but don't really fit exactly that profile. But there are many who do. I sent the photos of January's Best by Best of Luck. January's Best was undefeated on the Hunter Breeding line and was Green Working Hunter Champion at Devon and The Garden and Washington and Circuit Champion at Indio and Circuit Champion at Palm Beach. So, there is one example in our family.

Just The Best was only beaten once in Hunter Breeding....January's Best was the only one who ever beat him. Just The Best was champion when we showed him in the Working Hunters and he is siring champions on the line and over fences.

The youngsters that I have won with in the last few years are jumping beautifully at home and they will begin their performance careers soon. They are still very young and some are too young to show over fences yet. Even the ones who do the IHF take a long vacation after that and don't show over fences again for a year or two.

I know there are many others who go on to successful performance careers. It can be hard to keep track of them if they are sold a time or two and maybe have a name change. Not all of them are sold to people who show in rated divisions and prefer to stay in the local 3' divisions where the new owners are more comfortable. There can be a lot of reasons that they don't become the famous hunters. Most of those reasons have more to do with their owners and their training programs than they do with the horses themselves.

[Irish Ei's]

TQ, VB, PB and PTF.....
I've sat and watched...
We have a PHA show coming...
Only happens once a year....no series....
Mr Francis found the time and desire to run a clinic for us last Spring, days before our first HB class/division.Which he judged.
Helluva day, I tell you....
Babies, no stabling and rotten,pouring down weather.
Barely escaped death by yearling colt for the clinic...
Devon follows us by one weekend, and Long Island ain't on the easy schedule, location wise.

I'm really new to this, and really hope I have the years left in me to breed one and do this right....

How much of this is about Winning?? Or business??
If I get the chance, it's a personal Victory. I have 3 or four Long time winning , knowledgeable Breeders already on the search for my Mare and Stallion...
Hell, I need a business like I need to be pregnant at 55....

Let's look at the timeline, too...
Most of our beloved Judges and Handlers were on the Job back when the Thoroughbred was King and Ruler...
Rode 'em. hunted on 'em, raced 'em and bred 'em....
It's what they knew, rode, bred and judged....

Rode a "Skeert old lady" English Plesure Division last year...
Guess who won??
Champion was a TB...horribly lame....
Next, the QH on the wrong lead for 3 classes...
And then Me, and my Warmblood...
Makes me wonder why I even bother...

[Irish Ei's]

There's got to be a way to "fast track" certain Hunter judges into an Official H/B card.
Long Island is Way off the Map, but we have some Long time judges and Stewards who are way past earning their cards.Not as if they have to...
And we have a growing interest from the Breeders....who have made it clear that Breeding classes/divisions are wanted.
We've added it..We've got the Judge.We've got the Stabling.We've upped the Ante....

You've asked, we've provided....Stabling is ready...
Now fill these Divisions...Let this be a year of continued growth...

The Northeastern Coast...May 16...
Now show us you mean it....

[SilverBalls]

The Plaid Horse currently runs a section called Then and Now. It is supposed to show Hunter Breeding stars who have grown into performance stars. Since anyone can send in their photos, there are some who are lovely, but don't really fit exactly that profile.

I know there are many others who go on to successful performance careers. It can be hard to keep track of them if they are sold a time or two and maybe have a name change. Not all of them are sold to people who show in rated divisions and prefer to stay in the local 3' divisions where the new owners are more comfortable. There can be a lot of reasons that they don't become the famous hunters. Most of those reasons have more to do with their owners and their training programs than they do with the horses themselves.

MANY amateurs are buying and showing their horses in HB and going on to have awesome careers. To TQ's point, many never see anything past the 3 foot divisions so they stay "under the radar". I have been doing lots of research on this, and you would be amazed... and more so now than ever.
Breeders should really look at this whole HB matter closely as it can directly relate to them. Once again, new blood should be encouraged, and not discouraged and intinmidated.

3Dogs also makes a good point that the HB system as it is now, lacks credibility. It must change from within... there's only so much we can do from the outside. It's now or never, as I do not think HB shows need a repeat of last year.

Irish... it's fantastic that the LIPHA show has added Hunter Breeding! :D

[TQ]

Irish, good luck wiht your show. Sounds like you have done a great job of getting everything in place. Hope lots of beautiful babies attend. Wish I could, but it is way too far away for us to play. Let us know how it goes.

[PineTreeFarm]

The LIPHA show ran HB classes last year but we had very bad weather so a low turnout.
We will try it again this year and a few other shows on Long Island will also offer this division.
If anybody wants info about this show or wants to be on the mailing list please send me a PM.

[SilverBalls]

I also have a conflict, or I would be there. I'll pray for good weather! :cool:

[pwynnnorman]

Hate to bring this in when Ah'm finally seeing eye-to-eye with my usual debating partners, but about the "winners go on to win u/s" thing...

That's not necessarily statistically significant (which is a lengthy-worded way of saying it might not be as it seems). You have to parcel out the financial and subjective networking influence before you can say what wins in hand is significantly a winner u/s.

The winners, the "best" at the big shows, are almost always in the hands of those who can afford to campaign the best with the best well beyond the HB ring. If you could parcel out all of that, then you might get to the root of the relationship. But as it is, there are far too many intervening factors to really say any more than that "those owners who campaign in HB successfully campaign u/s and o/f successfully, too."

Now, if lots of nobodies (in addition to the somebodies) using nobody handlers and, later, nobody trainers were equally successful in hand and beyond in equally significant numbers compared to the somebodies, THEN you could say there's a high probability that a relationship exists between results in HB and results in performance.

[OAK]

SB

I know of shows that held the HB classes for years. But there are a couple of problems. One is the lack of entries which when as everyone says you try to bring in a top Judge for your show, it doesn't pay to have the classes when maybe only 3 or 4 horses show up.

The second problem is for the shows that are held AFTER Devon, if they are NOT pinning well, the owner/trainer just give up showing. So any show that trys to hold HB classes during the summer, guess what, we are back to lack of entries. And cost wise for show management it is not financially worth have these classes.

I know several shows that finally gave up and can't justify doing this any more. I wish I knew what the solution is, but I can't find out what it should be.

[SilverBalls]

SB
I know of shows that held the HB classes for years. But there are a couple of problems. One is the lack of entries which when as everyone says you try to bring in a top Judge for your show, it doesn't pay to have the classes when maybe only 3 or 4 horses show up.

The second problem is for the shows that are held AFTER Devon, if they are NOT pinning well, the owner/trainer just give up showing. So any show that trys to hold HB classes during the summer, guess what, we are back to lack of entries. And cost wise for show management it is not financially worth have these classes..

The first issue may have a direct correlation to the whole content of this thread.

I never understood why anyone showed a baby after Upperville anyway, except of course for the IHF finals & Sallie B. Wheeler championships in the fall. It doesn't seem like a good idea to expect HB entries in the "dog days of summer"... much less exhibit one. :)

[chunky munky]

Then you are part of the problem. If you live in Minnesota and breed horses, you don't even want to present them until June!!! To say that showing a young horse in hand after Upperville is useless is a very small sighted way of looking at the sport. For one that wants to promote...You need to think a bit more Mondo instead of your own eastern world.

[OAK]

SB

So how do we keep the HB classes going if no one wants to show after Devon, Upperville.

That isn't fair to the shows that are trying to keep the interest of HB going forward. I am sure there are the "FEW" that are chasing points, but they sure aren't going to be able for the shows justify a couple of entries with bringing in a Top HB Judge.

[Edgewood]

The first issue may have a direct correlation to the whole content of this thread.
It doesn't seem like a good idea to expect HB entries in the "dog days of summer"... much less exhibit one. :)

Well, I haven't shown a lot in HB yet, but I do know that USDF sporthorse shows go all summer long.

I would much rather show in the late spring, summer, and fall than try to prep babies through the winter and keep them blanketed or clipped so that they can show in March/April and look "slick coated". If you are like me and want to keep your babies outside as much as possible, the early HB shows are a pain since you either have to clip them or keep them in through the winter under lights. I have no problem showing later spring or summer. Just my opinion.

[SilverBalls]

I guess I should have specified the east coast. I PERSONALLY do not show young horses during the summer.... too hot, bugs, flies...etc. why subject a baby to that.

Before we get sidetracked... let us figure out ways to encourage more people to get involved and feel like they have a chance to win in the tight-knitted HB circle.
I still feel the USEF/USHJA HB committee should reconsider using Mr. Brede at the Sallie B. Wheeler finals this year. I'd still like to see things mixed up a bit and get a more unfamiliar perspective. ;)

[Mel0309]

I think it would be interesting at a show like the Sally Wheeler to have one HB judge and one hunter judge (try to find one who is comfortable judging babies) and then merge/average/whatever the scores (or placings). Could be an interesting perspective.

Otherwise I completely agree. We do get some variety down in Florida but have Thom Brede every year it seems (usually right before Devon). He seems pretty fair down here as we don't have the BNH here (and he seems to like mine :) )- but I can imagine the frustration of seeing the same couple of names at every show.

[Irish Ei's]

TC and SB....
Give PineTreeFarm the credit.....
She's the Breeder and she's responsible...
I'm just the one asking the dumb questions, here.....

Bottom line here is the Babies themselves...
A very fragile commodity...
Who is butt-high and when??
Who's boy juices just kicked into high gear??
Oh Lordy, that head wasn't that big last week....

Someone's toddler dozed off standing in the sun at DEVON....
Startled awake, shook like a dog and proceeded to lay down and roll.....

All that prep work......

[pwynnnorman]

So how do we keep the HB classes going if no one wants to show after Devon, Upperville.


Is the Sallie B. Wheeler unable to draw fall entries to shows (post-Upperville ones that is) due to its structure? Would a solution be a Devon/Upperville equivalent open series in the fall so folks kept showing and/or so entries unable to be competitive in the spring--due to seasonal challenges or maybe to growth spurts--could have a fall campaign instead?

[lauriep]

The SBW draws plenty of entries, and I think SB is a little conservative in his schedule (no offense intended, SB!) because most everyone I know shows through June, then takes July off, as there are literally NO shows in Zone 3, or 2, in July. Then we start again in August and go through KY. There aren't shows every week, but there are a couple a month anyhow. But Warrenton gives exhibitors 3 chances to show (if they are IHF nominated, 2 otherwise) and has MUCH prestige, so the classes fill well.

In VA after Upperville, we have Loudoun and Deep Run. Neither are big shows, but the classes are usually filled and not overly unpleasant. Loudoun can be very hot, and there is no shade at the ring, but we just stay at the trailers as long as possible before going to the ring.

[3Dogs]

Warrenton can be very hot too - last year was a blessing! But busy it is, although there was quite a bit of standing around and some droopy babies :cool:

However, to me, Sally Wheeler makes the most sense because of all the possible classes - skipping politics of course :winkgrin: The few NC shows are scheduled impossibly for a working adult, are scattered far and wide and for only one, maybe two classes - yikes, what a lot of work. Entries? Maybe 2 in a class, more often just one.

[SilverBalls]

I am conservative because I run out of money by June! :D

Pine Tree, I am so glad the LIPHA has breeding this year once again... talk about tireless efforts... you guys are really trying to put on a great event in May! Hat's off to you... or in my case... well never mind! :lol:

The SBW takes place at Warrenton, and there is something so special about Warrenton at Labor Day. AND you can do the IHF on Friday, The Warrenton breeding on Saturday followed by the SBW... chill out and go home Sunday. Three breeding events... so it's not that easy to "find another show if I don't like the judge". For the record I do not dislike Thom Brede, I just would like to see another face this year. At least I'll get to do the IHF and Warrenton anyway... :winkgrin:

[titan]

For the midwestern breeders - Horse Shows by the Bay has added HB to all 3 weeks of shows and DSHB to Dressage by the Bay this season. Come up and play!

[SilverBalls]

Titan... Who is judging? :lol::lol::lol:

I have heard great things about that horse show... so many of my friends went last year... It's on my wish list to attend! :yes:

[TrueColours]

Titan - MI is VERY do-able for me to scoot over the border for the day and show one of my youngsters and be back home for supper once again ...

Who do I contact for a Prize List for the shows? And do you know dates for them yet? I am specifically interested in the HB ones ...

Thanks a bunch! :)

[titan]

Our prize list is online at www.horsesportsbythebay.com and our shows run July 16 through August 3. The HB classes are Wednesdays I believe and judges are Walter Lee, Joey Darby, and Patrick Rhodes. (SB? How'd we do?) Dressage breeding is on July 30 including IBC and materiale and the judge is Janine Malone. Our new facility is fantastic, the area has tons to offer and we have great parties!!! Come on over.

[TrueColours]

Thanks titan ... but that will unfortunately rule it out for me ... :(

It would be about 7 - 8 hours each way for me, including border crossing time so that is just too far for me to haul a youngster to be honest ...

I was hoping you were down in Southern MI area which would have been perfect!

[lauriep]

Good news for Warrenton this year. My TB friends tell me that the TB Futurity, sponsored by the VTA, will NOT be held on Saturday morning anymore. So we won't have a 3+ hour delay to start showing, which put such a strain on the show last year. It was awful...

[Irish Ei's]

I am conservative because I run out of money by June! :D

Pine Tree, I am so glad the LIPHA has breeding this year once again... talk about tireless efforts... you guys are really trying to put on a great event in May! Hat's off to you... or in my case... well never mind! :lol:

The SBW takes place at Warrenton, and there is something so special about Warrenton at Labor Day. AND you can do the IHF on Friday, The Warrenton breeding on Saturday followed by the SBW... chill out and go home Sunday. Three breeding events... so it's not that easy to "find another show if I don't like the judge". For the record I do not dislike Thom Brede, I just would like to see another face this year. At least I'll get to do the IHF and Warrenton anyway... :winkgrin:

It's people like you who made it happen.
It's you we get to Thank for this division.....

I don't personally have it in me to become a Breeder.....
Loss and I do not see eye to eye.....
But I do love to learn something new and now, it's happening.....

Thank You.....

[SilverBalls]

Good news for Warrenton this year. My TB friends tell me that the TB Futurity, sponsored by the VTA, will NOT be held on Saturday morning anymore. So we won't have a 3+ hour delay to start showing, which put such a strain on the show last year. It was awful...

Awesome! :cool:

[3Dogs]

Honestly Laurie and SB - I find the TB futurity one of the best things about Warrenton. Know why? Mostly proud breeders bringing in their TB prospects - no fancy trappings, few professional handlers, babies who look like babies and a whole nother story kind of judging. I LOVE those classes - I am very sorry not to see them - hopefully they haven't removed them all together!

The VTA classes are a real boost to VA thoroubred breeders. I think the HB breeding world to take some cues.

[SilverBalls]

Honestly Laurie and SB - I find the TB futurity one of the best things about Warrenton. Know why? Mostly proud breeders bringing in their TB prospects - no fancy trappings, few professional handlers, babies who look like babies and a whole nother story kind of judging. I LOVE those classes - I am very sorry not to see them - hopefully they haven't removed them all together!

The VTA classes are a real boost to VA thoroubred breeders. I think the HB breeding world to take some cues.

They are just changing the day. And I agree 3Dogs about HB taking some cues from the VTA classes. I loved them too. :yes:

[lauriep]

True, but when it takes almost 4 hours, and causes a class that was to have started about noon to start around 6, then the class has to move from main ring to schooling ring and then back again, c'mon, something has to give. I enjoy it too, just not on the heaviest day of the show. The SBW finished at almost 10 pm.

[3Dogs]

I agree with the time - it WAS a long day:yes:. But look at the turnout for those classes, and the prizes. A wonderful program!

[SilverBalls]

The prizes / cash the VTA gives away are fantastic... I agree! :)

BTW Titan... looks like some good judges at Traverse. ;) I really want to check it out.

[VirginiaBred]

Our prize list is online at www.horsesportsbythebay.com (http://www.horsesportsbythebay.com) and our shows run July 16 through August 3. The HB classes are Wednesdays I believe and judges are Walter Lee, Joey Darby, and Patrick Rhodes.

I think you did real well! Jimmy is a great judge. He know a good in hand animal as well.

Here he is in action:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/VirginiaBred/Checkmarkinthemud.jpg

[twobit]

You go, Tish! I also raise nice hunters (several Just the Best babies - I love 'em) and we consider the Hunter Breeding divisions to be part of their education as a future show horse. Like Tish, I will often take "not the winner" to a show for the experience!

We are lucky here in the midwest to have several shows that offer HB divisions. Tommy MyIntyre offers it two weeks out of every month at Lake St. Louis, beginning with his April shows. I routinely take yearlings to LSL in April, even though they aren't really ready to be standout winners that early in the year. But, they ARE ready to learn to take a little drive (about 4 hours), get braided, and walk and jog in an arena filled with jumps. It's GOOD for them and costs a couple hundred bucks. That's one shoeing for a show horse! Seems a bargain to me.

HB is also offered at shows in Mason City, IA, which is about a six hour drive from me, and Oklahoma (new this year, thanks to Summer at Silver Creek Sporthorses) which is 5-6 hours, depending on which city (offered at Tulsa and Oklahoma City). The American Royal also offers an HB division (as well as a Sport Horse Breeding Division) in November, including under saddle classes for 2, 3 and 4 y.o.'s, and a $1,000 Under Saddle Championship.

So, if you're close at all to any of these cities, load those babies up and come show! Everyone is very helpful, including giving advice at the gate that will help "newbies" get through their first classes. And, with more horses showing, it will be harder to pin the "old guard" if they aren't holding the reins of the best horse! You won't change things if you aren't willing to give these guys some competition. The winner of the Sallie B. Wheeler West Coast last year was C'zar, shown by a trainer who had NEVER DONE THE HB BEFORE, and bred by ME, a small midwestern breeder! So, don't say it can't be done - it was done in 2007! Get those babies out there, guys!

If you get your young horses out and take advantage of these HB opportunities, you will be amazed at how easy they will become "show horses" at 4 or 5 years of age. And, USEF will issue "guest" status to any "R" judge to allow them to judge the HB classes, IF THE SHOW AND THE JUDGE APPLY FOR IT IN A TIMELY FASHION. So the pool of judges is greater than you think.

[PineTreeFarm]

And, USEF will issue "guest" status to any "R" judge to allow them to judge the HB classes, IF THE SHOW AND THE JUDGE APPLY FOR IT IN A TIMELY FASHION. So the pool of judges is greater than you think.

It's not exactly that simple as a few shows found out last year.

"h. Hunter Breeding: only judges currently holding an “R” Hunter license may Guest Judge in the Hunter Breeding Section. Registered (R) Hunter judges may receive two Hunter Breeding Guest Cards per year. If a judge receives a Hunter Breeding Guest Card twice in one year, each Guest Card must be used in a different Zone. If a competition has 15 or more aggregate entries in the Hunter Breeding Section the previous year, they are ineligible to apply for a Guest Card and must have a judge(s) who holds a Hunter Breeding License."

[SilverBalls]

You go, Tish! I also raise nice hunters (several Just the Best babies - I love 'em) and we consider the Hunter Breeding divisions to be part of their education as a future show horse. Like Tish, I will often take "not the winner" to a show for the experience!

Everyone is very helpful, including giving advice at the gate that will help "newbies" get through their first classes. And, with more horses showing, it will be harder to pin the "old guard" if they aren't holding the reins of the best horse! You won't change things if you aren't willing to give these guys some competition. The winner of the Sallie B. Wheeler West Coast last year was C'zar, shown by a trainer who had NEVER DONE THE HB BEFORE, and bred by ME, a small midwestern breeder! So, don't say it can't be done - it was done in 2007! Get those babies out there, guys!

If you get your young horses out and take advantage of these HB opportunities, you will be amazed at how easy they will become "show horses" at 4 or 5 years of age. So the pool of judges is greater than you think.

That's the spirit! :yes: I love your attitude! Congrats on a great accomplishment as a breeder!

[Irish Ei's]

This news just in!!

2 more LI Shows, run by the same manager, have added Hunter Breeding Class dates


2 at Winner's Circle Series and
2 at Hunter's Isle Series!!

Ok..that's 5 shows in total with HB classes this season, so far...

[Nlevie]

Hi Two bit - just wanted to point out that the North Hills Hunt Charity show is held outside of Omaha, NE, on Memorial day weekend, and for the 2nd year will have HB classes as well. I am hoping to go for my first time. . .

[Mardi]

If there is a lack of hunter breeding judges, would it be an idea for USEF to modify judge's licenses in some way so that sporthorse judges can also do hunter breeding classes ?

This would deepen the judges' pool....and get "new eyes" on the young horses.

[PineTreeFarm]

If there is a lack of hunter breeding judges, would it be an idea for USEF to modify judge's licenses in some way so that sporthorse judges can also do hunter breeding classes ?

This would deepen the judges' pool....and get "new eyes" on the young horses.

It would make more sense for a judge with a Hunter license to be allowed to judge HB than for a sporthorse judge to get a modified license.

Somehow, I don't think most sporthorse judges would be knowledgeable about Hunter Breeding or Hunters in general.

[Showsheen]

Trust me, you don't want the Sport horse judges doing the Hunter Breeding horses, it would be mutiny!
The Hunter Breeding judges could do the sport horse but not the other way around.
I proposed having a Sport Horse Breeding Division running along with all the Hunter Breeding shows 15 years ago-we need to get the babies out of the barn and appreciated!
A good horse is a good horse and it would be a much needed boost for our American breeders to showcase their stock.
How about a North American Breeding Horse Championship-sponsors anyone?:winkgrin:

[MagicRoseFarm]

The Hunter Breeding judges could do the sport horse but not the other way around.
Sorry but I could not disagree more, Apples and Oranges for MOST judges....

I do not feel that many of the Hunter Breeding judges give a hoot about movement, but to a DSHB judge, it is critical..

Now.... if HB judges had to give SCORES and reasons.. then ya got sumthin!!

[MagicRoseFarm]

On another note, we have two great HB shows in our area, recognized only at the C level( not USEF) cost $10 or less a class, not a bunch of hoop jumping, many show their own, and they give small cash prizes. I have been in yearling classes there with 18 horses in them... Single sex foal classes with more than 10 entries ( thats more than on the entire USEF year end list some years!)

These shows get 100 to 150 horses each in the ring because literally EVERY BREEDER WITHIN 100 MILES brings something to show, has a good time, win or lose, and it does not cost them so much to compete...... It is big brag to win at these shows locally, as everyone is there.

[horserider12]

Wow, 100 hunter breeding horses??? We thought we were doing well with 11 at our last show. Honestly though, for those that said there is no hunter breeding in zone 2 in july, there is. We have been showing on long island since may with these classes and have another here in october. It is a great way to get our horses used to going out to shows and we've been having tons of fun with some very nice animals. We would love for some breeders off long island to come so that our show managers continue to run these classes next year. any takers?

[lauriep]

Would love to, but too far for us!

[SilverBalls]

Wow, 100 hunter breeding horses??? We thought we were doing well with 11 at our last show. Honestly though, for those that said there is no hunter breeding in zone 2 in july, there is. We have been showing on long island since may with these classes and have another here in october. It is a great way to get our horses used to going out to shows and we've been having tons of fun with some very nice animals. We would love for some breeders off long island to come so that our show managers continue to run these classes next year. any takers?

Definitely may be worth the trip... :cool:

[PineTreeFarm]

Definitely may be worth the trip... :cool:

Well then come on up!!!

I think we were able to offer HB classes at 7 shows this year. The last one will be in October. As Horserider12 mentioned we'd like to keep this going for next year.

We don't have Big Name Handlers, some of the horses are shown by their Ammie owners. So some of the HB issues don't apply. But in speaking with local potential exhibitors it's clear that HB has a lot of perception problems. So the more exhibitors we can attract the better chance we have to keep this going.

If anybody would like assistance with information on HB on Long Island please contact me.