Anyone up for another critique and match making?

[JCIbarra]

I'd love to hear what you guys think of this girl and any input on stallion choices. She is fresh off the track, 16.3 hds, 4 y.o., outstanding mover. H/J stallions only please, foal will be marketed. Thanks!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/JCIbarra/Ariel.jpg

[incahoots]

I like her alot! She's steep through the croup but maybe that will improve when she lets down some. I really like Karen Reid's horses at Foxfire farm. I think Ariadus does well with TB mares as he is pretty substantial. They also are highly marketable. Another horse I was looking at to put to my TB was Apiro. He is by Argentinus and has very little blood which I like to look for when crossing with my TB's. Also look at Mezcalero at October Hill. These are mostly for the jumper as I don't breed for the hunter market. You can't go wrong with Edgar's stallions either and he will help you to make a good choice with her....Landkoenig maybe or his new stallion. I've researched for a couple of years now on who to put my TB's to and I like all of these guys and these particular stallion owners really well!

[goodmorning]

How about Magical? He seems to be a very nice cross with TB mare's.

Don Alfredo, Just the Best, Cabardino, Zarr all come to mind as well. Carpaccio, Cabardino's sire might be worth a look if you don't mind going the frozen route and the mare is a great hunter mover.

[grayfox]

Super nice mare!

[siegi b.]

I really like the mare and have to agree with the Ariadus suggestion. I think you'd get a dynamite foal with a great temperament and lots of beauty.

Congratulations!

[kookicat]

Lovely mare :D What's her breeding? :)

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Nice mare! She seems a perfect type to cross with a warmblood stallion. If you're looking for h/j, I suggest a Holsteiner stallion. If you want fresh cooled semen, we have some excellent choices on the AHHA roster. I'm assuming you want to use fresh on a maiden mare. Plenty of frozen semen stallions on Karen's list and I'm offering a few on my website.

AHHA Roster:

http://www.holsteiner.com/General%20Information/2008StallionRoster.htm

[VirginiaBred]

A Fine Romance or Just The Best would be awesome with your mare!

[Majestic Gaits]

Agree with the steep through the croup. Looks like a good structure for a foundation but will be so much nicer looking with some weight and muscle. With a TB mare and the KWPN Dutch stallions, you don't need to inspect the mare, so that makes it nice.

VDL Navarone (Jus de Pomme) goes really well with TB mares and puts on a nice Engine ont the foals. His ioldest offspring won a $25,000 GP jumping in Canada last year. So, people are looking for more of them now that they are starting in the high levels. He is fresh semen.

For frozen, I'd suggest Corland. Goes well with a TB mare and makes a super hunter jumper. I also like Olympic Cardento for a TB mare. We've had big demand for his breedings and foals.

Give the mare some time to get in condition before breeding. It will help her conception a bit too.

Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com

[lilypondlane]

The website www.zarrthestallion.com seems to be down, as does Stone Ledge Stables' website -- a Google search shows Stone Ledge in Front Royal VA as his current location. Is he an approved Trakehner stallion? I don't see him listed on the ATA website, but I have a lovely OSB Trakehner mare with fabulous hunter movement that I was thinking of breeding to him. Any information on him is appreciated!

[Centuree]

Really like your mare! I would go for the jumper market with her as she has that great uphill build with HUGE shoulder, great for the jumpers.

Would look for a stallion that will improve her hind end and give her a bit more width and power.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I would definitely look for a stallion to improve her loin connection. I love her expression and eye.

[Spectrum]

Not to be a party pooper, but I really am not fond of the positioning of this mare's pelvis. The highest point of the croup (the joint in the back where the loin ends) is notably further back than the point of her hip. Ideally, this would be as close to being directly above the point of the hip as possible, as this shortens the length of the "loin" or the portion of the vertebrae that are unsupported by ribs. This is a huge factor that plays into the horse's ability to lift the back under the rider.

Many TB's tend to be very long through the loin and or naturally weak in the loin muscling, so one of the biggest things I would breed for in a Thoroughbred in general (and even more so in this one) is a stallion with a perfectly aligned croup/hip and the strongest loin connection you can find.

This mare is visibly weak in this area of her back (granted, she's thin, so this makes it look worse), and combined with her lower neckset, I think finding a stallion with exceptional topline conformation would be crucial.

Another thing to note is that this mare's tail set is very high in relation to the point of her hindquarter, so you may run into some problems with infections, etc with this mare. Obviously I can't lift up her tail to look, but I would hazard a guess that this mare might have a pelvis that is at least somewhat tipped forward, which means that her vulva have the potential to catch more "junk" than a mare whose pelvis isn't tipped in this way.

If you lift up her tail and her vulva are totally vertical, then scratch that, you might be just fine in this area.

Spectrum.

[incahoots]

I agree with some of what you are saying spectrum but in my experience with these horses right off the track, everything is "pulled up" very tight and it can actually make everything look so out of whack! I don't think her neck is set on to low.....she is a TB and it is nicely set for her breed. You just don't see the really high neck sets on most TB's and it certainly wouldn't be a problem in the jumpers or hunters. Just stay away from breeding her specifically for dressage and I think you will have wonderful babies! Give her several months to come down and then repost, it would be fun to see the changes. If you are going to try and breed her this year you really need to get her on a weight gaining progam with all the right supplements and a very relaxing atmosphere. I also recommend looking into Immunal (go to Rainbow equus' site) as that seems to have shown some promising results in the area of fertility.

[VirginiaBred]

The website www.zarrthestallion.com (http://www.zarrthestallion.com) seems to be down, as does Stone Ledge Stables' website -- a Google search shows Stone Ledge in Front Royal VA as his current location. Is he an approved Trakehner stallion? I don't see him listed on the ATA website, but I have a lovely OSB Trakehner mare with fabulous hunter movement that I was thinking of breeding to him. Any information on him is appreciated!

Their site has been down for quite a while now. Yes, he's on the ATA site. More information may be seen here:

http://www.wariotofarminc.com/zarr.html

[spacely]

Is he an approved Trakehner stallion? I don't see him listed on the ATA website, but I have a lovely OSB Trakehner mare with fabulous hunter movement that I was thinking of breeding to him. Any information on him is appreciated!

He is a regstered but NOT approved Trakehner stallion. You can still register your foal in the Appendix book of the ATA. He had an injury when he was young that prevented a performance career.

[Spectrum]

I agree with some of what you are saying spectrum but in my experience with these horses right off the track, everything is "pulled up" very tight and it can actually make everything look so out of whack! I don't think her neck is set on to low.....she is a TB and it is nicely set for her breed. You just don't see the really high neck sets on most TB's and it certainly wouldn't be a problem in the jumpers or hunters. Just stay away from breeding her specifically for dressage and I think you will have wonderful babies! Give her several months to come down and then repost, it would be fun to see the changes. If you are going to try and breed her this year you really need to get her on a weight gaining progam with all the right supplements and a very relaxing atmosphere. I also recommend looking into Immunal (go to Rainbow equus' site) as that seems to have shown some promising results in the area of fertility.

I guess I believe in breeding towards a horse's strengths and away from its weaknesses regardless of what the breed is. If I see a horse with a low neck set and a long loin, I'm going to try to breed to stallions that correct this problem regardless of the breed of the horse or the discipline.

My mare, for example, is 1/2 TB. Her neckset is less than ideal, although it is probably still better than most. Her loin is strong and well-conformed, but she has a different problem typical with some TB lines- her croup is too level and flat. So I try to breed her to stallions that have exactly ideal hindquarter and croup conformation and perfect neck set... and who are also top performers in the discipline (in my mare's case, dressage).

I think that it's short-sighted to not take every point of conformation into consideration while breeding. If you want to breed for jumpers, then breed for jumpers. But breed for jumpers with the best possible conformation given the mare you are starting out with. It makes no sense to say, "Well, she's a TB and she has a typical TB neckset. Forget about it and concentrate on something else." Yes, it's harder to find a good match if you're picky about conformation, but you'll get a much nicer, more saleable baby out of it if you take off the rose-colored glasses and get really honest with yourself about what needs to be fixed on your mare.

My current mare is a premium Oldenburg mare who was a top scorer in the country the year she was inspected. But there are only a small handful of stallions I would breed her to because I will only breed to stallions who *both* play to her strengths and reduce her weaknesses.

My previous mare, on the other hand, was an unusually well-conformed TB mare. However she was a more typical flat mover, which was really the only thing that kept her out of the premium mare books. She was also short (15.3). That mare could have been bred to just about any nice, tall warmblood stallion in the country, in any discipline (hunter, jumper or dressage) and produced very solid foals. She was an easy mare to match.

That's just the breaks when it comes to breeding. Some mares are easier to match than others.

Spectrum.

[Spectrum]

On a different tack, I would second Navarone as a suggestion for this mare. There are two Navarone fillies in my trainer's barn, and they both have very strong loins, strong toplines, excellent neck sets and wonderful temperaments. And they are showing good promise as "all-rounders"- they could do either dressage, hunters or jumpers. And both fillies are 1/4 TB.

Spectrum.

[llsc]

I'd go with Rio Grande. They are both similarly built except for the hind end, and I've yet to see one of his babies with a sloped croup. He puts a great hind end on his babies. I think it would be a great cross.

http://www.charlotfarm.com/rio%20grande.htm

[goodmorning]

I have seen & heard from quite a few breeder's that Don Alfredo consistently stamps his get with wonderful hind-ends. Not to mention he has quite a few proven crosses with TB's ;)

Navarone is lovely, and would be a great match for her as well. He has a wonderful hind-end, and his get are quite multi-faceted (FEI Dressage, Grand Prix Jumpers, etc).

[omare]

here are some dumb conformation questions-but I try to learn from these discussions---if you have a long lovely sloping shoulder as thoroughbreds tend to have---would you not also tend to have a neck that is "tied in low" - (which I am assuming means the neck attaches to the chest down low-and is not addressing the top line which can be another issue)

If you are breeding for a jumper-why is that a fault? does not the long sloping shoulder (and consequently the low tied in neck) make the horse able to lift up the shoulder and avoid the knees pointing down look? Or does a long sloping shouldner not have to go with this type of neck set?

P.S. If you have a weak loin connnection does it mean you need to look for a short backed stallion-can a long backed stallion have a strong loin connection?

Thanks!

[Spectrum]

here are some dumb conformation questions-but I try to learn from these discussions---if you have a long lovely sloping shoulder as thoroughbreds tend to have---would you not also tend to have a neck that is "tied in low" - (which I am assuming means the neck attaches to the chest down low-and is not addressing the top line which can be another issue)

If you are breeding for a jumper-why is that a fault? does not the long sloping shoulder (and consequently the low tied in neck) make the horse able to lift up the shoulder and avoid the knees pointing down look? Or does a long sloping shouldner not have to go with this type of neck set?

P.S. If you have a weak loin connnection does it mean you need to look for a short backed stallion-can a long backed stallion have a strong loin connection?

Thanks!

On the long, sloping shoulder- it depends on whether the length is due to a deep shoulder conformationally or due to high withers. If the shoulder blade is long, but the bone from the point of the shoulder to the elbow is short, you can have a long shoulder that isn't deep and therefore doesn't absorb as much shock.

The neckset and the length of the shoulder have little to do with each other. You can have a horse with a long, sloping shoulder and a wonderful neck set or a long, sloping shoulder and a terrible neckset. And there are plenty of incredible stallions out there with perfect necks who jump, so the idea that a high neckset is less than ideal for jumpers doesn't really make sense to me.

On length of back... backs can be long for a couple reasons.

The first is that there is a long, weak loin. This occurs (as I said in a previous post) when there is a long distance between the last rib and the pelvic girdle, which means there is a longer section of vertebrae with no support from other bone structures. And musculature does play into this as well- some horses will be longer through the loin but still quite strong, although this tends to be more rare.

The second reason a back could be long is because the individual vertebrae of the horse are each long and/or widely spaced. This varies from horse to horse- case in point, a pony has the same number of vertebrae as a 17.0h horse. The 17.0h horse's are just larger.

Depending on the location of the pelvic girdle on the horse, there can be various combinations of these two. The worst case scenario would be a horse with both a long back due to vertebrae conformation and also due to a long weak loin. A horse like this will have much more difficulty engaging from behind and developing the strength to move and perform well under a rider.

My premium mare, for example, has a fairly long back but a short/strong loin. She is of the "longer vertebrae" type. She moves beautifully through her back naturally, and has wonderful natural collection, but I would never breed that mare to a long-loined stallion for fear of getting that worst-case scenario.

Spectrum.

[EquineLVR]

First let me say " she is lovely"!!

I will second several suggestions: Rio Grande, Corland (I have had two and love them), Just The Best.

I would also add: Landkoenig who crosses well with TB's and also Raffaello who I just love and think is underused.

[Paris]

I really like my Black Tie baby. He's out of a TB mare. He's an excellent mover with a very good brain. Beautiful canter.

Look at www.triadfarm.com

Black Tie really seems to stamp his get.. Mine is a chestnut with 4 whites and a strip out of a plain chestnut mare.

[cccsporthorses]

Jessica she is lovely!!! Go for a Jumper, corland woud be great, Jill at grayfox has a great jumper also!!!

[FMulder]

There's a stack of suitable stallions for you at Zangersheide http://www.zangersheide.com if you want the dvd and brochure, email me at info@zangersheide.co.uk

Kannan is a super mix with blood type mares

http://www.frenchstallions.org/french_stallion_detail.php?stallion=2007016

If you're not looking to spend much money, try Dallas van Overis. Super temperament, genetics and work ethic:

http://www.frenchstallions.org/french_stallion_detail.php?stallion=2007020

[cccsporthorses]

Check out Embellish and Reveal at Grayfox farm!!

[spacely]

Check out Embellish and Reveal at Grayfox farm!!

They are 2 year olds & still in Germany as far as I know, so it's unlikely they are available. Gray Fox's stallions are hunters & I believe the OP has a mare in foal to Redwine which should be a nice baby.