When to say enough is enough?

[Notanevilalterbutanalter]

Posting under an alter....

Family purchased horse 2 years ago for daughter to move into Big Eq. on. Daughter rode horse for finals, did great and everyone thought that this would be THE horse. Over the winter (about 1-2 months after the horse was purchased), the horse became lame and remained that way ever since. The family has since put nearly 10000 into injecting joints, treating ulcers, chiropractics, acupuncture, saddle fitting, massage, training, etc. The horse is relatively sound now but will never jump much of anything ever again and will never be sound enough for A competition. Or at least sound enough and past the drug test.
The horse has also become nasty on the ground. Biting, kicking, bucking, rearing, charging, and just overall very difficult to handle. Yesterday he had a trailer loading lesson and attempted to strike me in the head about 4 different times. He's also 17.3 so it's a bit intimidating for even the gutsiest! The father watched the whole incident and watched the purely leading the horse back to the barn afterwards was dangerous. The horse acts like a stallion race horse 80% of the time. And once in his stall he was so visably stressed that he didn't relax for almost an hour afterwards. And this was not a stressful work. He does the same thing after you ride him too. Everything sets him off. Any type of work, any type of disruption, any type of handling.
The family is currently to the point that they need to do something with him. It doesn't look good for a showing future and he is too expensive to be a pasture ornament (needs shoes, lives on gastrogard, massive amounts of feed to maintain weight, and drugs/herbs to help with joint/muscle pain). The horse is costing about $500 a month to keep up (not including board and training).
How do you decide when enough is enough and commit a horse to pasture status? Who would take a horse like this? We discussed that their best option may be to donate him to a vet school but I hate to do that to this girl's pet. Thoughts???

[Jaegermonster]

Well, if he were mine I think I would be tempted to have him put down as opposed to donating him to a vet school to be their guinea pig til they eventually put him down when he is used up, which is what will happen. But of course then the insurance company won't pay and/or they won't get a tax write off, and from your description this is a very expensive horse, or was before all his issues. And i"m not a 16 year old girl in love with my horse. Can they make a claim for loss of use and go from there? He IS insured right?
Obviously the horse is miserable. I don't think anyone doubts that. You are definitely right to explore options. I wouldn't even think about therapeutic riding with the way he is behaving, but what about sending him to a horse resuce, although they probably wouldn't be able to afford his maintenance costs either.

[Highflyer]

Well, I would put him down instead of donating him, but since he's in pain and dangerous to handle, I don't think that there's anything wrong with saying enough is enough.

[EqTrainer]

Have they tried putting this horse on hormones? I would do that before I pulled the plug.

Otherwise, if he has been treated for EPM and Lyme *regardless of what any testing said* I would put him down. A predictably dangerous horse is a time bomb waiting to go off. It's like putting a half-loaded gun to your head and every day pulling the trigger once. It will eventually go off and hurt you.

[minnie]

Life's short and there's no horse worth getting hurt over.

[Kimberlee]

Sounds like he is feeling pretty miserable. Think the putting down may be the kindest thing for him. As hard as that is to consider.

[thumbsontop]

Definitely sounds like enough is enough. If the trainer has any suggestions for a new (adult) home, I'd explore that first - with a first right of refusal to make sure he doesn't get sold in his current state. I actually don't really have a problem donating a horse like that to a vet program (spoken from someone who has never had to make that decision). The vets have to learn, and I'd much rather it be on a horse like that than a sweet old schoolmaster. And don't they have those horses that serve as blood donors?

I wonder if it's something neurological. He likely never acted like that before he was sold, from what it sounds like. Poor guy sounds pretty upset...and poor kid having to go through that.

17.3 is HUGE for a junior (and me!) - even a pretty large kid. Wow! Do many big eq juniors ride horses that big?

[Dianna]

I'm curious ... I see $10,000 worth of treatment, but what tests did they run? I have to say that horse is speaking and trying to communicate something and it might be pain, it might be something else. Other than doing things to "fix" what all did they do to find?

In any event, in the situation he is in, I would say put him down. For me personally, my concern would be to locate the underlying issue - do you have any idea what his blood panels said, if they ran for all possible levels the blood work has?

[Snow Princess]

Maybe the horse needs a long break.. some R&R....at one point not long ago he was a really good horse..
I have taken horses like this that have needed a break from the stress of the routine of working and the show stable atmosphere.

Is it possible to let him live like a horse..pull his shoes... turn him out for 6 months ?

Sometimes people really want to ride and the lameness or soreness really never gets a chance to fully. It looks like it has gone and person wants to ride and horse is prematurely put back to work. Or some times a horse can be off and vets can't quite figure out why.. so the really long rest gives nature it's time to heal.

What type of injury? The more info the better in these cases.

[onelanerode]

I think I'm in the turn him out for at least 6 months, maybe a year camp, PROVIDED his owners can find someone experienced enough to handle him on the occasions he needs basic care (shots, trims, etc.). But, from the OP's post, it sounds like he may not be safe enough to handle for even this. If he's not, then I think I'd try hormones or *cringe* even an animal communicator as a last-ditch effort to try and figure out what's going on.

I guess to me it just sounds like he's mentally fried and possibly in some pain/discomfort still, and this is manifesting as an "HELL NO I don't wanna have ANYTHING to do with you people!!" outlook. It might be that a long period of R&R with limited human interaction might help, but then again it may not, and the owners may not want to wait yet another 6 months or a year to see what, if anything, happens.

Tough situation. :( Definitely better to put him down if he's truly a dangerous horse and there's nothing else to be done.

[tmo0hul]

I'm on board with Dianna - $10,000 is a lot spent on treatment. From what you have written it sounds as though the shotgun method was used - treat for everything and hope it works - without actually diagnosing the problem. He's being treated with gastro-guard, but has he been scoped to determine if he has ulcers? He's been injected in the joints - but have x-rays revealed issues?

If it were my high $$ horse - I'd take him to a place like Rood & Riddle or New Bolton and have him thoroughly examined by a specialist. Farm vets are great for what they do, but IME they don't have the daily exposure to off-the-wall lameness/injury issues like this one. I'd also have a scintigraphy done to determine the actual souce of the problem - which would certainly appear to be pain driven.

If they want to stop the $$ output all together, I'd euthanize him.

[Notanevilalterbutanalter]

He's had x-rays and been scoped. He was found to have:
* OCD in upper hocks
* DJD in lower hocks
* arthritis in stifles and hind fetlocks
* chronic subluxations of the sacroiliac
* chronic lower back pain
* ulcers in stomach

He's had:
* hocks injected
* stifles injected
* fetlocks injected
* sacroiliac injected
* acupuncture/chiropractics
* Gastrogard for 60 days- ulcers return as soon as gastrogard is stopped regardless of prevention method (or at least the ones we've tried)
* stretches 3 times a day for joint pain
* consumes 15 Robaxin tablets twice a day
* bute or Equioxx on really painful days or days he's going to work
* eating 2 ounces of U-Gard twice a day
* also eating alfalfa for ulcers

He's actually been turned out for the last year only coming in to eat twice a day. He must keep shoes on because he is prone to quarter cracks.

[johnnysauntie]

before I did anything extreme, if possible, I'd follow the 6-mos - to - a - year turnout for this guy. A friend of mine did that with her horribly lame, hooves-a-mess, entire-system-wrecked OTTB. Pulled his shoes, put him out for a year, just did groundwork. Low pressure. He's sound (despite arthritis and an ankle full of pins) now, healthy, happy, eager to work.

[Xanthoria]

he's been in a lot of pain - I can see why he's acting out.

when you say turned out, do you mean alone / in a small area, or in a herd with hills and trees and plenty of hay/grass and room to roam?

and will those feet improve with a better trim? I'm pretty sure well trimmed feet aren't prone to quarter cracks.

remember the old adage: when in doubt, turn 'em out. Find a huge retirement pasture/herd and send him away for a year of benign neglect (aka being a horse) - surely that's better than putting him down?

[jn4jenny]

Although I am usually very much in the "when in doubt turn them out" school of thought, based on the list you posted, the horse is well beyond that point. He is arthritic ALL OVER his body, has ulcers, and is so miserable that he's downright dangerous to handle. And after $10K, it sounds like just about everything that COULD be done for him HAS been done for him.

The chances that you'll turn the horse out for a year and that'll come back sane and sound are minimal. If it were my horse, I'd be putting him down.

[Petstorejunkie]

that horse needs to go live on the back 40 for 6 months and remember what being happy is.
pull his shoes, i dont really think the quarter cracks is enough to warrant shoes on an unused horse. besides if trimmed properly you dont get cracks ;)
stop the ulcer meds and put him in a herd of 20+ on lots of natural acerage
cut out all the supps, dont grain him, just put him on rich pasture and go visit once a week.

literally this horse needs back to nature therapy. He'll come round

[gotabuk]

that horse needs to go live on the back 40 for 6 months and remember what being happy is.
pull his shoes, i dont really think the quarter cracks is enough to warrant shoes on an unused horse. besides if trimmed properly you dont get cracks ;)
stop the ulcer meds and put him in a herd of 20+ on lots of natural acerage
cut out all the supps, dont grain him, just put him on rich pasture and go visit once a week.

literally this horse needs back to nature therapy. He'll come round

I 100% agree with you - pasture therapy - mother nature's reset button.

I actually watched my husband rehab a horse in a similar situation (a beautiful Donnerhall son in fact!). After about 6 mo. off and some very tactful riding to bring him back, he's now a very happy, willing horse for his owner.

Give the boy a chance.....turn him out.:yes:

[mroades]

Put him down, it will be kinder for everyone.....
but no thats cruel, so we will wait until he hurts or kills someone and then it will be too late to take it back

[tmo0hul]

He has chronic ulcers that are being treated. Has the cause been determined? As you know, gastro-guard is prohibitively expensive for long term use. Have you tried Succeed?

Vets prescribe Robaxin all the time as a muscle relaxer, but the method of action has never been known. I've never found it to be effective in horses or humans.

This is totally OT, but I've got to ask...was there no pre-purchase? Certainly the x-ray issues would have been evident. Also - WHY is this horse even being ridden? The turnout regimine should have been instuted LONG ago.

[LivviesMom]

I reschooled a pony like that she was nasty.. I told the owner I didnt trust her and even suggested euthansia. I felt she would always be dangerous.
So we turned her out for 6 months.. did nothing with her.. I started her again and she had a totally different outloook.. shes still a box of attitude but she is safe for the kids to ride. I was even able to show her a bit.
She just needed to be a pony again and learn that not everything in life was horrible. In this case, I'm glad I was wrong..

Best of luck to you with this guy..

[LookinSouth]

The family has since put nearly 10000 into injecting joints, treating ulcers, chiropractics, acupuncture, saddle fitting, massage, training, etc. The horse is relatively sound now but will never jump much of anything ever again and will never be sound enough for A competition. Or at least sound enough and past the drug test.
?

Has he been tested for Lyme disease??

[Notanevilalterbutanalter]

Never been tested for Lyme disease.

Pre-purchase was done but I believe that a vet was paid off and that x-rays are not valid. There's no way this horse EVER flexed sound. The only thing that was mentioned was an old bow (very slight) and a dropped sole on the front foot that would need a poured pad. I suggested a law suit but they decided to cut their losses. To each his own.

The horse had great feet until the family started to use a local farrier rather than using my "expensive" farrier. That is when the horse developed quarter cracks. They are now back with my farrier.

[TB Fan]

Lyme wasmy first thought too. It does terrible damage to the joints, especially when left untreated. My next question is how old is this horse? Did the family do a pre-purchase? It seems like an aweful lot of problems for a big buck horse. Something isn't right here. After a Lyme titre, I'm in the camp of throwing him out to pasture so he can learn to relax and be a horse again.

[Notanevilalterbutanalter]

I'm not familiar with Lyme. If it was Lyme, is there treatment? Can treatment repair the damage that's been done?

[EqTrainer]

Lyme, and all its related friends such as babliosis and erchliosis, are transmitted by ticks.

If this horse was exposed to it quite a while ago, a titer will be useless. My vet would tell me to treat this one w/IV antiobiotics and then turn him out for 6 - 12 months. The other thing I would treat him for would be EPM, I would do a 3 month course and then again, turn him out.

[EqTrainer]

No one knows for sure that anyone was paid off.

I just went back and read that basically every joint possible to inject has been injected on this horse when he was already in pain.

I would assume that the ulcers are based on his chronic pain. It is also possible that the horse now has metabolic issues from being in chronic pain for an extended period of time and then being injected so heavily.

In light of that, I would put him down. If no one "got it" that continuing to treat the symptoms instead of the cause was going to fix him, the chances of someone "getting it" now and doing what it takes to possibly fix him are slim to none.

The horse the OP is describing is basically how Dan was when I got him. It took two years to fix him. Thinking out of the box became the norm and I had to drag everyone right along with me - vet, chiro, farrier, friends, etc. etc. Unless you have an absolute burning need to start all over and really figure out what is up with this horse, I would put him down. If he doesn't belong to you I wouldn't do it, either, because you never know when an owner will snatch a horse out from underneath you (IME, this happens most often when the horse has recovered well enough to look half decent and act half decent but is in no way fixed. Patience is a virtue few people have).

Harsh, I know, I am sorry for that.. it just seems to be the story of so many high end show horses lifes. Sad.

[Old Jr. Hunter]

He's had x-rays and been scoped. He was found to have:
* OCD in upper hocks
* DJD in lower hocks
* arthritis in stifles and hind fetlocks
* chronic subluxations of the sacroiliac
* chronic lower back pain
* ulcers in stomach



If the horse has degenerative joint disease in his hocks, arthritis, and all the things you mentioned, he's not going to get better. These things just don't go away.

How old is he anyway? Seems a lot of times the eq horses are schooled so much, and then the rider needs to school a lot, and it overuses their joints.

Unfortunately, it does sound like he should be retired and pasture boarded or just humanely euthanized. A very difficult situation. So sorry you are going through it.

[deltawave]

Every now and then, the supposedly "sickest" patients who require tons of medications to "keep them well" inexplicably start doing BETTER when for one reason or another they just STOP taking all the meds. This is not something I condone as a normal treatment plan, but there are just enough instances I can think of to make me always, in the back of my head, wonder if someone who's just "NQR" is overmedicated, overtreated, etc.

I wouldn't put myself or a loved one in danger over a horse if I could help it, but before euthanizing the critter (and this is a perfectly reasonable course of action, IMO, if nothing else works) I'd pull its shoes, let it grow its hair out, and throw it out in a field for 6 months. Keep it warm and dry and meet its needs, of course, but skip the drugs, even the ones it "needs". Let his feet grow out if you can--even if he's a bit footsore. (obviously if he can't move without shoes you have to do something) Give him a buddy and let him be a HORSE. If, after a period of time, he shows no signs of being more comfortable in his own skin and no inclination of being able to be a cooperative horse again, maybe it's time to throw in the towel. A big, strapping horse might be a good candidate for a blood donor, if you're near a vet school.

[WW_Queen]

Ouch! Poor guy. No wonder he's acting like such a d*ckhead, first he was in all that pain and then suddenly the vet starting playing the Needle game. *shudders* I'd be rotten nasty too. The only reasonable explanation for the bad attitude is pain, because horses don't wake up one day and say "Hmmm, from now on I'm going to be a miserable wreck!" (I'm assuming he was nice enough in the beginning, and she didn't buy a stinker to begin with.)

Even though it doesn't sound like he'll ever be a competition horse anymore, 6 months/a year might flush his system of all the drugs and allow his body to "adjust" to it's new limitations. Perhaps he could be a good husband horse or a pet for someone. It never surprises me how many barns I have been to where people have horses "just because".

If this is her "pet" then they both deserve a chance to see him get right.

It really sucks, but the reality is with horses.....sometimes things happen beyond our control. If they chose not to sue to re-coup those losses, it is their decision. *shrug*

[FLIPPED HER HALO]

He was an A-Circuit jumper and sound, but I was never told about his bad attitude and dangerous side, just that "he can be mouthy and has a showhorse attitude."

I gave it 3 months and finally washed my hands of him last weekend. He wasn't worth it. He was a biter, he'd run you over on purpose, body slam you, when he gets reprimanded rears and strikes out etc. I wasn't going to be liable for him hurting somebody else and hauled him back to the prior owner. He'd hurt me enough times just trying to groom him or take him to/from turnout.

Amazing how much more relaxed the whole atmosphere in the barn is now with him gone. I'm much more relaxed too. ALL my horse are off the track and none that I have encountered have been as nasty as this guys was.

[onthebit]

I've actually rehabbed a couple like this. It can be done with the right team and if the owners are committed. The horse is acting out because he is in pain. Get the right team in place, treat him, and continue pasture rest while he is being treated. I hate to say it because it does sound like a lot of money has been spent, but it seems like the shotgun approach was taken. Sometimes that works . . and sometimes not.

[Dianna]

I'm sorry, I looked but couldn't get an age on this horse. How old is the horse?

If he has all the issues outlined then it is understandable why he is so pissy. As for the ulcers, they are probably secondary to the pain and the medication for the pain.

While I am all for the turnout, I do want to remind that arthritis does not do good with rest .. movement, strength/muscle building are all tools to use to deal with the damage of arthritis. Getting better/stronger can be quite painful in the process.

So, unless you can get him out there with a horse that will keep his butt moving (and they are also so much more willing to move with their buddies as they are under saddle), turnout and forgetting him may not be the way to go.

Also, as far as arthritis and barefoot, while there are many that will argue that barefoot cures all, for me, I would want him set up with egg-bars behind - for me, the tried and true would be the egg-bars.

I would probably pull him off the various medications for pain (right now) and instead start soaking him in DMSO mixed with ARNICA GEL, and I would keep him "warm". I would also be very careful to feed him to that he isn't getting the type of calories that are prone to adding more "anxiousness" into the mix as well. I would probably also jug this guy with DMSO and let it work from the inside, out.

He would get a ton of massage as well, to make sure his muscles are in good shape ... and he would be on mega doses of Vit. E (and if appropriate in your area, magnesium) and MSM.

I don't know that the owners of this horse are the type of horse owners that can truly undertake a project like this and make it work. But for me, I would be inclined to take him on as a project rather than see him put down.

[Snow Princess]

If you go the turnout route...........it needs to be a big field.. my R&R field is 45 acres with run inns.. A small paddock where they just stand will be bad for the arthritis as one poster mentioned. The big field and herd situation with no meds and out 24 7 with all you can eat grass ( natures healer) is his best hope.
If your situation does not permit that.. maybe give him to somebody who can?
I realize that many people don't have access to this set up and everyone is unhappy paying board on a lame crusty horse they can't ride.
I also missed his age.
I have had good luck with arthritic nasty school horses on this see you in 6 months or year program. Maybe his days of showing are done but he could be a pleasure horse again and do small shows even with his list of conditions. Also a good idea to check for the Lymes disease unless your just sick of the whole situtation.
Good luck

[shamrocker]

Just reading this and all that has been done for this horse has made me really bummed :( It just doesn't seem fair to the new owners who probably paid quite a bit a money for him, and the horse who is clearly miserable.

Sounds very much like it's time to pull the plug as hard it is to do. Better to know what happens to the horse. Yes, the turnout can help but will the owners want to take the risk if he is going to ever be suitable for their daughter.

Please let us know what happens in this situation.

[Jaegermonster]

Well, I have to say that I really thought I would totally get ripped a new one after my first post on this thread, but I am glad to see that others besides me can see that this horse has lots of chronic issues that aren't going to go away and obviously is miserable.
Even if they just "turn him out" he will still have arthritis and everything else that he has, it's not like we are talking about a strain or a pull here.
The poor horse, and his poor people. They obviously have cared enough about him to try to help him as much as they can.

[mroades]

Jaeger, you get it. The difference between "us and them" is that we can make that decision....to me turning him out is just forcing him to live with all this pain a little longer, and is more selfish than just euthanizing him.

[Appassionato]

he's been in a lot of pain - I can see why he's acting out.

That how it sounds to me as well.

I don't know your position at the barn, but if you are the BO or BM I'd demand x-rays. That's a starting point. Or nerve blocking, whatever. You know what I mean. VETERINARY intervention, period. Don't put up with this; YOU'LL have ulcers before long. I've done it, I know how hard it can be. I'm sending good vibes your way either way...I'm a boarder again but I put up with similar issues.

I'm not much on the barefoot and turn the out because some problems need more help than that...in any case, I'd demand for a vet, and one you know that is credible. I know how it feels to be "callous" and demand for a vet you know about (credibility of the vet), but chances are the former client will call you anyway in time (been there too, and usually catastrophic).

It's unfair for the vets, some patients won't pay and I know that. Certain vets won't come out to barns for that reason (it's been reported enough). Furthermore, I understand that position. Doggoneit, I should be paid for mny work as well. I'm not talking about on-the-spot even, I'm talking about at ALL. So, I understand their position. They have equipment to pay for. One more reason to dump the client if you have to. It's one thing to treat a horse that is showing symptoms of a disease before results come back, it's another to help the cheapie that won't do right by their own animal if the testing was free but the long-term costs were high. You can't help people like that.

[LookinSouth]

If the horse has degenerative joint disease in his hocks, arthritis, and all the things you mentioned, he's not going to get better. These things just don't go away.

.

No, but the condition can be amplified by Lyme Disease. I agree this owner has done everything they can but IMO there's been a whole lot of "playing doctor" going on and not a whole lot of pin pointing the issue. The symptoms scream to me of Lyme Disease. If it was my horse, I'd pull a Western blot and ELISA titre just for peace of mind before declaring quits. Considering everything else they've tried it is a cheap test and with IV Oxytet might save the horse.

Trust me, you can spend 10k on vet bills and get no where. I know someone who spent 12k at one of the top vet clinics in the country and they STILL were not sure what was wrong with the horse.:no:

[LookinSouth]

I'm not familiar with Lyme. If it was Lyme, is there treatment? Can treatment repair the damage that's been done?


Can't repair neccessarily but often can help immensely and the horse can go back to work.
Lyme can exacerbate inflammed joints so if the lyme is cleared up the arthritis likely will not be as bad.

I second what EQTrainer said. Although I would treat for lyme first then turn out. I wouldn't treat for EPM unless the IVoxytete didn't show results.
Each horse is different but many vets have had great success with the IV Oxytet route for 28 days. Lyme is very tricky to diagnose but this really sounds like it to me.
I've known horses that have become extremely sick/lame and the vets couldn't figure it out. Turns out it was lyme.

[Annetta]

I would euthanize, rather than donate to a vet school.

In the meantime, I would be giving this fellow some time off. I would NOT be messing around with trailer loading lessons nor would I be riding him. Given all the arthritis he has he is hurting, and I'd bet that his pain/discomfort is the cause of his nasty attitude.

[Freebird!]

What does the Ins. Company say? (Just assuming here that as a Big Eq. horse, he is insured)

Sounds like a WB gelding I rode for a friend of mine. She was going to buy him, and had him vetted "just in case" The vet flexed him, and the horse was fairly lame, but not bad. Then I popped him over a few small jumps, and he tore off bucking, obviously very sore. The X-Rays showed DJD EVERYWHERE. The horse went back to the owner - a BNT in SC/NC area. Horse is now showing on the A circuit. (lord knows how he passes a drug test though...)

As for what to do on this poor boy....it sounds like pretty much anything will just be too little, WAY too late. Sad. :(

[Jaegermonster]

Jaeger, you get it. The difference between "us and them" is that we can make that decision....to me turning him out is just forcing him to live with all this pain a little longer, and is more selfish than just euthanizing him.

thanks Mroades. I hope this poor horse gets some relief from his pain.

[egontoast]

The robaxin and bute can't be helping his ulcers. Something (besides what was listed) is not right, went bad very quickly and I'd want to find out what is going on . OCD and DJD do not make horses go nuts and try to hurt people UNLESS they are being asked to work through pain.

Ulcers can be treated. The various meds he is on could be the reason the ulcer regime has not been successful. I think I'd try to find a way to turn him out for several months as has been suggested. My vet is big on this for 'hopeless cases'. Nothing much to lose, really, if it does not work and many times it does work .

I disagree with whomever said she'd rather give this horse than some sweet old schoolmaster to a vet school. He's just a horse. He has no 'agenda". He does not deserve any worse treatment than any other horse.

[Dalemma]

I haven't read all the posts so not sure if this has been mentioned....but I would check for PSSM and low selenium......this muscle disease can create and incredible amount of pain.....my guy was starting to buck and rear....and got very nippy on the ground while brushing and tacking up......which is not the norm for him.......he was eventually diagnosed with PSSM.....and his diet has been changed and he has made some improvements but will never be sound for riding.

Dalemma

[egontoast]

On these sorts of threads it always seems to me that the OP already knows what she thinks( enough is enough) and is seeking support for the decision. The story comes out that way and usually there is a lot of support for that decision. I just read everything with a grain of salt and remember that the person posting probably has her own view which is stamped on the story and there could be other ways of looking at it. Also, it is not her horse.

[pony4me]

Since you've tried "everything" I'd add a session with an animal communicator to see if the real problem can be discerned. The sessions are only around $50 and damn if sometimes they don't hit on somthing everyone else missed.

[FindersKeepers]

In a situation like this...enough IS enough. It is not as if his owners didn't try to find the problem and fix it...but it's time to let him go...for his sake and for the humans that care for him.

I know the decision is hard...but he is not being stoic here...it's obvious that he is in pain, and has lost his mind. Just stop the suffering, because at this point that's all he's doing. Another 3, 6, 12 months of treatment on the offchance that MAYBE it's something that was overlooked is unfair to everyone involved.

[egontoast]

I don't think anyone here can know if the horse is a lost cause or not. The OP thinks so but what does the vet say? What do the owners think?

I guess I'm gunshy because sometimes a trainer decides a horse is just no good and needs to be gone when actually a diagnosis might be more helpful.

[onthebit]

I don't think anyone here can know if the horse is a lost cause or not. The OP thinks so but what does the vet say? What do the owners think?

I guess I'm gunshy because sometimes a trainer decides a horse is just no good and needs to be gone when actually a diagnosis might be more helpful.

I agree, it is hard to make that call and you are sometimes walking a fine line between pushing on and giving up. However, with the limited info given here it does look like the shotgun approach was used. Yes they have spent a lot of money, but did they spend the right money? I would send the horse to a clinic with the equipment and ability to do thorough and complete diagnostics and actually try to diagnose the root problem and not treat systems. Maybe a lot of money could have been saved by pulling a lyme titer for example.

But then, maybe there really isn't any more money to be spent at this point. If that is the case then yes, time to say enough. A really tough situation for all involved including the poor horse. The time, the money, the emotional heartbreak . . . unfortunately I have been there and have the t-shirt. Not a club you want to be a member of. :(

[donkeyman]

I might be inclined to look at coffin joint injections as we had a horse similar to this but seems lyme, pssm could be likely scenarios,

providing us an age would be great

[Lieslot]

I pm'd you :).

[Nibs]

I hope that since the familly seems to be well off they will do whats best for the horse and retire him instead of putting him down. If he did his best for them they owe him that if they can afford it.

[silver2]

Something (besides what was listed) is not right, went bad very quickly and I'd want to find out what is going on
Horse as purchased as sound, became unsound and experienced major personality change within 1-2 months of purchase and a year of turn out and treatment has not offered any relief? I'd look into suing the pants off the seller personally, but I'm cynical like that.

Lots of good suggestions about hauling to a big clinic, treating for Lyme or ESPM & looking at selenium. I'd also have neuro test done and consider spinal x-rays if warranted. The DJD could be the source of the pain but it is totally possible for a horse (or human, like me!) to have horrible x-rays and no pain. Have you talked to the old trainer? Probably nothing but you might get some info.

Ultimately though if he's not happy in the pasture I'd euthanise.

[danosaur]

my first thought was lymes.
lymes makes them irritable and their joints hurt a LOT. combined with the arthritis, I'd say that's a heck of a lot of joint pain.
ulcers are also veeeery painful, and one of the causes is stress. as you stated before, he is a very stressed out horse now. Ulcers also cause change in attitude. The fact that the ulcers return as soon as you take him off the treatment meds indicates that the cause is still there for the ulcers.
sooo... to sum it up.
stress=ulcers
lymes?=joint pain
arthritis=joint pain
lymes?+arthritis= lots of joint pain
ulcers= bad attitude change
lymes?= bad attitude change
ulcers+lymes?= really bad attitude change.

I would give him a break. turn him out for at least 6 months as others have said, and test him for lymes. if he still doesn't improve after like, a year of turnout, I would put him down because he's in a lot of pain and he's clearly not happy.

[Huntertwo]

Your Vet sounds like he/she has done a lot of injections, X-Rays and such, but was blood ever pulled for a full Chemistry screen? Or any other blood screening to see if he is deficient in any vitamins or minerals?


Lyme was my first thought. If left untreated, it can definitely change a nice calm horse into a painful unhappy horse.
A big change in personality.

Plus if you're giving him Bute, isn't that counter productive to the Ulcer Meds?

[Notanevilalterbutanalter]

thanks for all the concern and replies/suggestions. THis is truly a heartbreaking situation. I would never dream of merely casting a horse aside because he is no longer useful but the pain issue is what makes me concerned that we are only prolonging his agony.

Yes I do think that the Robaxin is a source of the ulcer pain but no other method has proven to be effective in minimizing his muscle pain. Any suggestions for a substitute? Chiropractics and acupuncture are not a long term option because the really good chiropractor lives 1 1/2 hours away. The one that services our area is not worth the money imo.
I do think that the reason he is so grumpy is due to pain and stress. He stresses literally over everything! When he's out, he wants in, when he's in he wants out; when his friends go out; when his friends go in; where is his food; who's touching him; what's going to touch him, etc, etc, etc.
He has to be able to be loaded because every 6 weeks he must travel to the specialist farrier who is working to correct imbalance issues on his feet and adjust his uneven shoulders.
For the most part at this moment he is relatively sound. Not sound enough to pass a flexion but certainly capable of some LIGHT work. He is so stiff when I sit on him that he is unable to bend at all or carry himself. He becomes very heavy on the forehand and strung out. The vet did say that work would be helpful to him as it would help retrain some muscles into working the correct way.
Thanks again for your discussion- it is very helpful to hear several sides as we consider what decisions to make. I'm not sure I'm ready to give up on this horse but I'm also not willing to have someone get hurt just so he can keep living.

[atr]

I've owned a horse just like this. So this is what I would do. (Your mileage may vary, of course, I may be far off base, but you can't lose much by trying at this point.)

Test his selenium levels, and if in the low to medium range, put him on a selenium supplement, with vit E. I'd also put him on a pretty significant dose of magnesium--Quiesscence works well. This will help with the muscle tightness, and the spookiness.

I'd also give him a course of RVI. If you are addressing a muscle soreness issue, this is remarkable, and way more effective than Robaxin, IME. Can't hurt, might be the answer. You'll know whether it helps within a few days.

Simplify his diet radically (I don't know what you are feeding him now--so this may not be a simplification, but bear with me). If he can live on grass hay and hay pellets to get his supplements into him without losing too much weight, I'd do it for a couple of months, then I'd sloowly introduce some protein--maybe some alfalfa, or something simple like a cup of Empower and some rice bran. Keep far away from anything containing soy. He'll probably look horrible for a while, but close your eyes and listen to him. He'll feel better.

Try this for 3 months. Keep him OFF the spring grass but with plenty of quiet turnout. Ride him at a walk once it is safe to do so. If at all possible, don't trailer him anywhere, or introduce any other stressors, like vaccinations, or even worming, in this period. (Won't kill him to not see special farrier or be a bit late on the routine stuff for a couple of months.)

Re-assess at the end of this period. If he's still dangerous to handle, then you have to make the decision.

It sounds to me as if he has this sort of cascade effect of one issue causing another issue until he's so over-all sore and stressed he doesn't know what to do with himself. You need to get all that inflammation under control.

Good luck. There's no point in keeping a miserable, dangerous horse alive, but if I were you, I'd give this a shot first.

[horselifer88]

I'm not sure why only the horse's symptoms are being treated, not the cause. I think quite a few people on here agreed that living "like a horse" would do this horse a lot of good, and possibly help fix a lot of his problems. However, it seems that the OP already has her mind made up, and I don't see anything changing. The horse has become a pin cushion and is consequently acting out---- big surprise. It is truly a sad situation for all involved, especially the horse. If the party involved cannot figure out how to stop treating only the symptoms, then I say put it down, or offer the horse to someone who WILL think outside of the box. Sad situation.

[Notanevilalterbutanalter]

NO the OP HAS NOT made her mind up!!!

She is looking for suggestions as to what to do and when enough is enough- we have done nothing but follow the advice of some of the leading veterinarians in their field and have had minimal success.

My question to the board was when do you make the decision that you can't do any more? When do you decide that it's just not worth the money any more? I'm not opposed to turning this horse out for a year but finding a facility where that could happen would be somewhat of a challenge. He is a hard keeper and yes he will certainly go downhill but hopefully some of his body and mind will be able to find some balance.

OR

do we try other treatments again...
* I do believe that the meds he is on is contributing to his ulcers and would love to find something that will help treat his joint and muscle pain and something that will treat his ulcers.
* Ulcer treatments I'm curious about are ranitidine and possibly the compounded omeprazole. I just can't keep asking the owners to drop more and more money on treatments that don't work- anyone could understand the frustration. We've been trying treatments for over a year. One vet even had us treat this obviously NOT neurological case for EPM. We did- no success. The vet said to give it a few more months. We did and still nothing.
* I would like to pull bloodwork for a chem analysis just to see what he looks like. If he's fighting something like Lymes I would expect some semblance of a spike in his white blood cell count. Also a urinalysis to see if his kidney functions appear to be normal. I suspect that his frequent urination is from ulcers but why not check....
* the ulcers are why I suspect that he is so violent. But he stresses about everything!!!!! I suggested some natural horsemanship training as a means to help handle him. Not something I usually suggest but I think it may help settle this horse mentally.


edited to add: the CAUSE of this horse's pain is years of OCD, arthritis, DJD, and ulcers. If there is something else underlying all of that then no vet has been able to find it. We have x-rays and a stomach scope to prove that these are problems.

[mjrtango93]

Just to throw this out there, but have they considered doing a full body scan (nuclear or MRI). We had a horse that sounded familiar to this, except we had him for 4 years before it started. He was happy, sound, and loved his job. Little by little he got grumpier, unsounder, and the whole ulcer stress circle began. Vets looked at him couldn't really find anything, took him to hospital they found lots of changes in joints thought it was that. Horse snapped one day and just lost it! He became such a threat to himself and others that he was euthanized at the hospital. Since he was there we donated him to the hospital to see what they could find. Turns out the poor guy had a brain tumor! They think that was the cause of everything. Between the constant headache he must have had and then the centers in the brain it was cutting off , he just constantly was painful and stressed. With ours he was so stoic though he never lead on. He went downhill fast though as in a matter of months. From start to finish was probably 5 months. We hadn't done an MRI because nobody suspected it was in his head, in the end wouldn't have helped anyway as there is no surgery for that, but would have made any decisions easier.

[JRG]

I have read all the posts with special interest to the OP. There comes a time when you have to step back and look at the facts from a distance.

The horse has a laundry list of stuff going on that hurts...all the time. Anyone of these may be managable but the list is long.

Having been in this position...with a 5 year old last year I can tell you making the decision is the hardest thing you can do. In my case the decision was to have the horse put down. I agonized over it. At the end of the day it came down to quality of life for the horse and can this horse be a horse and not be a danger to himself or the people/horses around him.

You already know what this horse has, really listen to the prognosis. You will find your answer.

[Jaegermonster]

NO the OP HAS NOT made her mind up!!!

She is looking for suggestions as to what to do and when enough is enough- we have done nothing but follow the advice of some of the leading veterinarians in their field and have had minimal success.

My question to the board was when do you make the decision that you can't do any more? When do you decide that it's just not worth the money any more? OR

edited to add: the CAUSE of this horse's pain is years of OCD, arthritis, DJD, and ulcers. If there is something else underlying all of that then no vet has been able to find it. We have x-rays and a stomach scope to prove that these are problems.

You make the decision when it is not about the money but about what is best for the horse. The OCD, arthritis and DJD aren't going to go away. And I bet the constant pain from that isn't helping his ulcers either.
That should be your priority, the horse and his quality of life, not whether or not "it's worth the money". I really hope you didn't mean that to sound as cold as it did.

[EqTrainer]

I think the horse deserves a chance to see if he can live comfortably with his arthritic issues. Many, many, MANY horses do if managed correctly. It usually DOES NOT involve more joint injections ;) it means 24/7 turnout, adherence to a strict diet and in the beginning, time off.

Every ex-show horse on my farm has some DJD. It's to be expected. We don't expect to have to put horses down over it. Something else is probably going on.

I agree w/ATR about where to start. What I don't think is that what the horse needs to have a shot at a comfortable life can happen in a barn focused on horses in work/showing/training. I think (I know, because this is what I do) that there are places who would feed him properly, blanket him properly, trim him properly - basically care for him well but still allow him the freedom and time to recover.

It took Dan two years of careful managment for him to recover. He was almost exactly how the OP describes the horse in question. He also has a fair amount of DJD and he was indeed diagnosed with THAT being his problem. It was not. It had, however, caused enough pain that his cortizol levels were always high (OP - this could be why your horse is so muscle sore, he certainly was) and he was sore as hell. Mean as hell, too. Tired of people effing with him, poking him with needles, trying one more thing, asking him to do one more thing.

He is now 100% sound on MSM as his only "joint" supplement. He works, he jumps, he does dressage, he trail rides.

If I had accepted that DJD meant he was crippled and he could not be made comfortable, he would be dead now. I never dreamed he would become this sound but I sure learned a lot in the process :) so the gift was two-fold.

I hope someone figures out what to do for this horse soon and I doubt the answers will come from a vet. JMO.

[daisyduke]

I would probably retire the horse to pasture, however, if that is not available to you, I would euthanize. The horse is most likely not going to die of natural causes, taking into consideration his ailments. Although to many, this would be irresponsible and unethical, they won't be paying your health care when your child is injured or another child. Your priority is with your child's safety. That is responsible! Many may blast you for being inhumane to an animal, however, if your child is injured by an animal deemed aggressive, you've knowingly allowed it. That is a heavy burden to bare. You have to do what is right for you.

[Acertainsmile]

I've owned a horse just like this. So this is what I would do. (Your mileage may vary, of course, I may be far off base, but you can't lose much by trying at this point.)

Test his selenium levels, and if in the low to medium range, put him on a selenium supplement, with vit E. I'd also put him on a pretty significant dose of magnesium--Quiesscence works well. This will help with the muscle tightness, and the spookiness.

I'd also give him a course of RVI. If you are addressing a muscle soreness issue, this is remarkable, and way more effective than Robaxin, IME. Can't hurt, might be the answer. You'll know whether it helps within a few days.

Simplify his diet radically (I don't know what you are feeding him now--so this may not be a simplification, but bear with me). If he can live on grass hay and hay pellets to get his supplements into him without losing too much weight, I'd do it for a couple of months, then I'd sloowly introduce some protein--maybe some alfalfa, or something simple like a cup of Empower and some rice bran. Keep far away from anything containing soy. He'll probably look horrible for a while, but close your eyes and listen to him. He'll feel better.

Try this for 3 months. Keep him OFF the spring grass but with plenty of quiet turnout. Ride him at a walk once it is safe to do so. If at all possible, don't trailer him anywhere, or introduce any other stressors, like vaccinations, or even worming, in this period. (Won't kill him to not see special farrier or be a bit late on the routine stuff for a couple of months.)

Re-assess at the end of this period. If he's still dangerous to handle, then you have to make the decision.

It sounds to me as if he has this sort of cascade effect of one issue causing another issue until he's so over-all sore and stressed he doesn't know what to do with himself. You need to get all that inflammation under control.

Good luck. There's no point in keeping a miserable, dangerous horse alive, but if I were you, I'd give this a shot first.


Im really glad you posted this, I stopped reading at this point!

I agree on the RVI... I have seen it work wonders, also switching feed, or cutting hard feed out altogether for awhile...

I noticed the OP said they fed him quite a bit because he is a big horse, that right there could be your ulcer problem, depending on what you are feeding him.

[juniormom]

You might try treating him again for EPM - one whole tube every 10 days - and yes, we said one whole tube. We have had one that we treated the "normal way" and it didn't help at all, yet when we treated him the "off-label way" - it worked really well. This was using the Marquis. I know there are some newer things out now, but it's just a thought. I wouldn't give up until I had tried everything, but you never know how the owners feel. Good luck!

[Notanevilalterbutanalter]

Some interesting input- thanks! Truly!

Thoughts I'm having:

- what is RIV?

- what is we pulled him from the meds (currently Robaxin is what he's eating daily) and tried natural supplements for his pain and anxiety. We've used Shen Calmer and Quiessence in the past. Might address if there is a magnesium deficiency. Also begin Body Sore at a double/triple dose to aid with the muscle pain and possibly start a vitamin E & selenium supplement based off of blood work?

- are those perhaps the best supplements for muscle soreness? What are good supplements for muscle soreness? best supplements for anxiety?

- do we treat the ulcers again or find a supplement? or ranitidine? or compounded omeprazole? what do you suggest? I feel that unless we treat the overlying causes of pain and anxiety here then there's no point to treat the ulcers because they'll just come back.

- Twice a day he is eating 1 1/2 scoops of Triple Crown Senior, 4 cups beet pulp (dry weight), 1 scoop alfalfa cubes, 2 ounces U-Gard powder, 1 cup Farrier's Formula, 2 cups rice bran, and 15 robaxin tablets. He is given free choice fescue/alfalfa mix hay both in the stall and in the pasture. He is in a 3 acre pasture with another horse and a pony who are both happy to help him share any food. He rarely finishes his food in the stall but is brought in at lunch to finish- which he likes. Does that diet sound as if it is being counterproductive? He has maintained his weight well this year but is not a 'fat' show hunter by any means. Actually the only thoroughbred in the barn who has a problem keeping weight on.

- I'm talking to a lady who posts here and has taken an interest in our case. We are discussing the possibility of her trying to rehab him for some period of time using various alternative therapies. I'm just worried that if/when we get him back the cycle will start again. I can't stand the thought of this horse being miserable.

THANKS COTH!!!

[Old Jr. Hunter]

No, but the condition can be amplified by Lyme Disease. . .:

Oh, Please! Why does everyone jump to the Lyme diagnosis, the most over-diagnosed disease ever.

The OP already said the horse was Xrayed and has arthitis and DJD, etc. You can't cure either.

[Melissa.Hare.Jones]

So... if you get the horse relatively sound, comfortable and happy again, what will he be asked to do? If he's going right back into the type of work/routine that landed him in this mess in the first place, I would say it is in his best interest to say "enough is enough" now and let him go peacefully. But... If the owner's interests lie in simply providing this horse with a comfortable life - either retired or in work that would not aggravate his chronic problems - then there are some very good suggestions here for a new course of action (my 2 cents goes with at least a year's worth of 24/7 turnout in a laaaaarrrrge pasture with a herd, appropriate joint supplements to modify pain, and cessation of the other drugs).

[RM'sgranny]

He's had x-rays and been scoped. He was found to have:
* OCD in upper hocks
* DJD in lower hocks
* arthritis in stifles and hind fetlocks
* chronic subluxations of the sacroiliac
* chronic lower back pain
* ulcers in stomach

He's had:
* hocks injected
* stifles injected
* fetlocks injected
* sacroiliac injected
* acupuncture/chiropractics
* Gastrogard for 60 days- ulcers return as soon as gastrogard is stopped regardless of prevention method (or at least the ones we've tried)
* stretches 3 times a day for joint pain
* consumes 15 Robaxin tablets twice a day
* bute or Equioxx on really painful days or days he's going to work
* eating 2 ounces of U-Gard twice a day
* also eating alfalfa for ulcers

He's actually been turned out for the last year only coming in to eat twice a day. He must keep shoes on because he is prone to quarter cracks.

Well that about does it for options. Put him down and send the owners to this wonderful web site http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1017247314 for a wonderful keepsake of the horse that seems to have tried.

[LookinSouth]

Oh, Please! Why does everyone jump to the Lyme diagnosis, the most over-diagnosed disease ever.

The OP already said the horse was Xrayed and has arthitis and DJD, etc. You can't cure either.


That may be your opinion but considering I have seen the effects and the results of treatment for Lyme disease firsthand with my own two horses you are going to have a hard time convincing me that it is a nonexistent issue.
My TBX flexed positive in his right hock when he had lyme, lyme was treated and he no longer flexes in that hock or any hock for that matter and he's never been injected. He is 17.
There were a myriad of other symptoms as well. My old TB was very lame in the hind end (hocks) when he had lyme. Vet prescribed hock injections, did nothing. Months later he was still lame, stiff and extremely athritic all over. Treated for lyme and there was significant improvement.

Is it overdiagnosed? Yes in some cases. But by many vets it is UNDER diagnosed.

Please do the research for yourself. Lyme disease is alive and well. Sadly it affects many, many horses every year. It is not a death sentence though when caught and treated early on.

Lyme disease DOES infact affect the joints (yes that includes "arthritis" and DJD) by aggravating inflammation. Arthritis IS inflammation of the joints. Can it be miraculously healed overnight? No. But with proper treatment (IF in fact Lyme is the culprit )it is highly likely that the horse can and will get better. In this severe of a case my guess IV oxytet would be suggested for treatment.

So if you think Lyme disease is such an outlandish idea in terms of this horse's issues may I ask what your diagnosis is?

At this stage in the game what harm exactly would it do to run this horse on a course of doxy to see if it clears up any symptoms??? That's what I want to know.

[lindat]

Any updates?

[SaturdayNightLive]

Well that about does it for options. Put him down and send the owners to this wonderful web site http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1017247314 for a wonderful keepsake of the horse that seems to have tried.

This is potentially the creepiest post I have ever read...

[pucky]

This is potentially the creepiest post I have ever read...

I'll second that!!

[pines4equines]

Get this horse off all grain...is all I can say. Free-choice hay, no alflafa, noting fancy...just plain old hay and NO grain then see how he is in a week. That's probably why he's nuts.

[Calhoun]

I've been following this heart breaking thread. Like the OP, would like to know what is RIV. How is the horse doing? Keep us updated, I know I care!

[rcloisonne]

Like the OP, would like to know what is RIV.
I believe they mean RVI, which stands for Rubeola Virus Immunomodulator

Rubeola, BTW, is human measles. This is the vaccine used to prevent measles in children. There were some studies done years ago that suggested RVI may help chronic inflammatory conditions in horses. Here's the link to the Eudaemonic website:

http://www.eudaemonic.net/jeqsantiinflameffect.htm

While treating this horse's conditions may help him, I doubt his temperament will be improved. A dangerous horse needs to be put down before it seriously hurts or kills someone.

[justathought]

Maybe the horse needs a long break.. some R&R....at one point not long ago he was a really good horse..
I have taken horses like this that have needed a break from the stress of the routine of working and the show stable atmosphere.

Is it possible to let him live like a horse..pull his shoes... turn him out for 6 months ?

Sometimes people really want to ride and the lameness or soreness really never gets a chance to fully. It looks like it has gone and person wants to ride and horse is prematurely put back to work. Or some times a horse can be off and vets can't quite figure out why.. so the really long rest gives nature it's time to heal.

What type of injury? The more info the better in these cases.

This was exactly my reaction.... it may be that the gastroguard can be eliminated if the horse is allowed to simply be a horse for 6 to 12 months.

[ladipus]

Posting under an alter....

Family purchased horse 2 years ago for daughter to move into Big Eq. on. Daughter rode horse for finals, did great and everyone thought that this would be THE horse. Over the winter (about 1-2 months after the horse was purchased), the horse became lame and remained that way ever since. The family has since put nearly 10000 into injecting joints, treating ulcers, chiropractics, acupuncture, saddle fitting, massage, training, etc. The horse is relatively sound now but will never jump much of anything ever again and will never be sound enough for A competition. Or at least sound enough and past the drug test.
The horse has also become nasty on the ground. Biting, kicking, bucking, rearing, charging, and just overall very difficult to handle. Yesterday he had a trailer loading lesson and attempted to strike me in the head about 4 different times. He's also 17.3 so it's a bit intimidating for even the gutsiest! The father watched the whole incident and watched the purely leading the horse back to the barn afterwards was dangerous. The horse acts like a stallion race horse 80% of the time. And once in his stall he was so visably stressed that he didn't relax for almost an hour afterwards. And this was not a stressful work. He does the same thing after you ride him too. Everything sets him off. Any type of work, any type of disruption, any type of handling.
The family is currently to the point that they need to do something with him. It doesn't look good for a showing future and he is too expensive to be a pasture ornament (needs shoes, lives on gastrogard, massive amounts of feed to maintain weight, and drugs/herbs to help with joint/muscle pain). The horse is costing about $500 a month to keep up (not including board and training).
How do you decide when enough is enough and commit a horse to pasture status? Who would take a horse like this? We discussed that their best option may be to donate him to a vet school but I hate to do that to this girl's pet. Thoughts???

First of all...i WOULD NOT do anything drastic...i agree w/ what somebody else just said-this horse is trying to tell you something. I would just ease up on him-give him time off,and some good old fashion R&R,and TLC,and leave him alone for a while-continue w/ his gastroguard-but how about just turning him out to pasture for a while-let him chill out-something obviously happened to him or went wrong that really traumatized and/or stressed this poor guy out. And was bloodwork done?did they test for lyme,epm?what was found? And what is massive amounts of feed?/how much?what are you feeding him?that may be fueling the fire so to speak-most of the time less is more-maybe this horse is allergic/sensitvie to what you're feeding him-alot of horses are very sensitive to sugar/starch,and if he's getting large amounts you just might be the one creating a fire breathing dragon-which not to mention could be flaring up his ulcers/making his stomach hurt which definitely would make him act the way you're describing....horses stomach's are surprisingly delicate,and not very large-so if you're truly giving him massive amounts of feed-its probably way to much at one sitting-think about how you feel after stuffing yourself..or forcing yourself to finish eating something! your stomach hurts,and you probably feel sick...then imagine having to perform and exert yourself! The horse cant say...hey look-i don't feel good-so he's telling you by the ways you described above.

[ladipus]

I believe they mean RVI, which stands for Rubeola Virus Immunomodulator

Rubeola, BTW, is human measles. This is the vaccine used to prevent measles in children. There were some studies done years ago that suggested RVI may help chronic inflammatory conditions in horses. Here's the link to the Eudaemonic website:

http://www.eudaemonic.net/jeqsantiinflameffect.htm

While treating this horse's conditions may help him, I doubt his temperament will be improved. A dangerous horse needs to be put down before it seriously hurts or kills someone.

:no: I completly disagree...this horse used to be a really good boy-something happened or traumatized him,or stressed him out so much that he's now acting this way-he's hurting and not feeling good,and still being kept in work-horses don't act this way for no reason-his attitude and temperament will improve 100% if they just let this horse chill out relax,and go out to pasture for a while and just be a horse and let him heal and feel better.

[ladipus]

Get this horse off all grain...is all I can say. Free-choice hay, no alflafa, noting fancy...just plain old hay and NO grain then see how he is in a week. That's probably why he's nuts.

That was my reaction too....i said less is more-w/ them saying he's getting "massive" amounts of feed....i said that's what's fueling the fire,and that they're creating a fire breathing dragon...not to mention probably making his gut/ulcers way worse. Just give this horse hay and turnout...i guarantee they'll have a completely different horse on their hands.:yes:

[Boston Chicken]

I'm sorry to say this whole thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. My gelding is very high maintenance - stifle, hock, pastern injections, daily UlcerGuard, insanely expensive supplements, ongoing massage, ongoing chiro, special shoeing, many bouts with Lyme, care for an old ligament injury, etc, etc. This is hardly uncommon with show horses yes? Guess what? He's now retired from showing and I gladly pay for his care on a beautiful retirement farm because he deserves it - and moreover, this is the commitment I made in purchasing him to begin with. He was a wonderful competition partner, but he is hardly useless.

It's amazing what turnout can do. He is now off his ulcer meds (that he has been maintained on for YEARS), barefoot (slow transition), completely happy and enjoying his life. I watched a video of him yesterday madly galloping through the field to his buddies.

I just don't buy "he's too expensive to turn out and maintain" - turnout may very well alleviate what are obviously issues with pain. Let him be a horse for a while and then re-evaluate.

I understand that not everyone buys a horse with the intention of keeping them for life. And I do understand the horse is acting aggressively - dangerously even. But that should tell you something. He's miserable. No one on this thread can tell you what is wrong with your horse. But most of us agree that this horse would almost certainly improve with a lifestyle change.

When he was going well he was good enough to maintain. Now that he's in pain, he should be given a chance to recover.

*sore subject*

[ladipus]

He's had x-rays and been scoped. He was found to have:
* OCD in upper hocks
* DJD in lower hocks
* arthritis in stifles and hind fetlocks
* chronic subluxations of the sacroiliac
* chronic lower back pain
* ulcers in stomach

He's had:
* hocks injected
* stifles injected
* fetlocks injected
* sacroiliac injected
* acupuncture/chiropractics
* Gastrogard for 60 days- ulcers return as soon as gastrogard is stopped regardless of prevention method (or at least the ones we've tried)
* stretches 3 times a day for joint pain
* consumes 15 Robaxin tablets twice a day
* bute or Equioxx on really painful days or days he's going to work
* eating 2 ounces of U-Gard twice a day
* also eating alfalfa for ulcers

He's actually been turned out for the last year only coming in to eat twice a day. He must keep shoes on because he is prone to quarter cracks.

Was this found on Pre-purchase? or did they not get him vetted and found this out afterwards?

[ladipus]

I'm sorry to say this whole thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. My gelding is very high maintenance - stifle, hock, pastern injections, daily UlcerGuard, insanely expensive supplements, ongoing massage, ongoing chiro, special shoeing, many bouts with Lyme, care for an old ligament injury, etc, etc. This is hardly uncommon with show horses yes? Guess what? He's now retired from showing and I gladly pay for his care on a beautiful retirement farm because he deserves it - and moreover, this is the commitment I made in purchasing him to begin with. He was a wonderful competition partner, but he is hardly useless.

It's amazing what turnout can do. He is now off his ulcer meds (that he has been maintained on for YEARS), barefoot (slow transition), completely happy and enjoying his life. I watched a video of him yesterday madly galloping through the field to his buddies.

I just don't buy "he's too expensive to turn out and maintain" - turnout may very well alleviate what are obviously issues with pain. Let him be a horse for a while and then re-evaluate.

I understand that not everyone buys a horse with the intention of keeping them for life. And I do understand the horse is acting aggressively - dangerously even. But that should tell you something. He's miserable. No one on this thread can tell you what is wrong with your horse. But most of us agree that this horse would almost certainly improve with a lifestyle change.

When he was going well he was good enough to maintain. Now that he's in pain, he should be given a chance to recover.

*sore subject*

AMEN!!!!!!!!! HALLELUAHH!!!! I couldn't say it better or agree more:yes::yes:

[ladipus]

This is potentially the creepiest post I have ever read...

:eek::sadsmile: I agree....what is wrong w/ all these people saying to put him down?!?!?! Very very sad,and such a shame that people think this way-i feel bad for that poor horse

[goeslikestink]

No one knows for sure that anyone was paid off.

I just went back and read that basically every joint possible to inject has been injected on this horse when he was already in pain.

I would assume that the ulcers are based on his chronic pain. It is also possible that the horse now has metabolic issues from being in chronic pain for an extended period of time and then being injected so heavily.

In light of that, I would put him down. If no one "got it" that continuing to treat the symptoms instead of the cause was going to fix him, the chances of someone "getting it" now and doing what it takes to possibly fix him are slim to none.

The horse the OP is describing is basically how Dan was when I got him. It took two years to fix him. Thinking out of the box became the norm and I had to drag everyone right along with me - vet, chiro, farrier, friends, etc. etc. Unless you have an absolute burning need to start all over and really figure out what is up with this horse, I would put him down. If he doesn't belong to you I wouldn't do it, either, because you never know when an owner will snatch a horse out from underneath you (IME, this happens most often when the horse has recovered well enough to look half decent and act half decent but is in no way fixed. Patience is a virtue few people have).

Harsh, I know, I am sorry for that.. it just seems to be the story of so many high end show horses lifes. Sad.

tend to agree,as egtrianer knows i have and do rescue and re hab horses ponies
this and this truthful -- look ijust say it as it is, the horse is nasty on ground you say the horse is nasty when ridden hes had heaps of this and that to no avail -- hes nasty mate and hes telling you loud and clear--------- hes in pain

best thing your mates can do is pick a nice sunny day,, have some speical moments as he was good at one point and deserves a special day its not his fault more likely due to his carreer than anything else and the old guy broken down form being overdone in this that or whatever--------- so let the guy go with dignity and respect he was goos horse and is a good horse your mates owe him that much not the other way round, and as for his price
next time they buy tell them the truth a ppe is done to protect you the buyer and you the buyer should arrnage one with independant vet of your choice-- ppe only last the day the hour the minute they was written on--
for exsample an mot on car--- passes but if you went out the garage and drove down the road and some idiot smashed your wing mirror -- then the car aint legal no more
its the same thing with a ppe for a horse--------- always insure in transit and always get yout own ppe done

best of british to your mates and there neddy-- and to the neddy aswell as its not his fualt hes in so much pain and he dont mean to be nasty with it but honestly how else does he have to get your attention before people realise hes not himself ------ bute the old guy up
give him a speacial day and be say good bye and thank him

[rcloisonne]

:no: I completly disagree...this horse used to be a really good boy-something happened or traumatized him,or stressed him out so much that he's now acting this way-he's hurting and not feeling good,and still being kept in work-horses don't act this way for no reason-his attitude and temperament will improve 100% if they just let this horse chill out relax,and go out to pasture for a while and just be a horse and let him heal and feel better.
There was no traumatic incident. They don't know if he used to be a "really good boy". They only had him for a month or two before things went south. If it were me, I would suspect the horse had been drugged with something like reserpine before purchase and when it wore off - BAM!

You must have forgotten this from the original post:

Over the winter (about 1-2 months after the horse was purchased), the horse became lame and remained that way ever since.
And this:

The horse has also become nasty on the ground. Biting, kicking, bucking, rearing, charging, and just overall very difficult to handle. Yesterday he had a trailer loading lesson and attempted to strike me in the head about 4 different times.
I've had horses with chronic pain much worse than this and they didn't try to hurt anyone, ever! As I said, this horse WILL seriously injure someone, if not kill them. No horse is worth that.

[ladipus]

There was no traumatic incident. They don't know if he used to be a "really good boy". They only had him for a month or two before things went south. If it were me, I would suspect the horse had been drugged with something like reserpine before purchase and when it wore off - BAM!

You must have forgotten this from the original post:


And this:


I've had horses with chronic pain much worse than this and they didn't try to hurt anyone, ever! As I said, this horse WILL seriously injure someone, if not kill them. No horse is worth that.

:confused: Did they do a prepurchase exam?? did they pull a drug panel?? what was found on xrays/drug screen?!?:confused: you've listed all that was found on xrays/scoping etc....was that not there on prepurchase?i find it hard to believe that it all happened in the 2 months that they owned him before things went down hill...and reserpine can be tested for if they pulled blood

[Trixie]

I would suggest that some people read for comprehension...

[lindat]

any update...

[Notanevilalterbutanalter]

Shortly after posting and reading your replies I had another heart to heart with the owners of this horse. I also brought the consulting veterinarian in to give her perspective. We agreed that retirement would be the best option but that perhaps persuing some nutritional concerns would be a place to start.
I think the horse heard us talking about him leaving because shortly after all this we stopped the daily Robaxin (16 tablets twice a day). The horse was put back in to light work and he is currently sound (well for the most part). He is on full turn-out with a couple of friends, has a run-in shed and comes in three times a day to eat. He is on prescription ulcer medication and a hoof supplement but no 'real' medications to speak of.
I did get across to the owners that this won't last forever and that eventually he will need to find him a more permanent situation but for now the fellow has kept his home.
I'll update more later. Thanks for the advice. I think turn-out really is this boy's saving grace!

[SEPowell]

Thanks for the update and thanks for turning him out. What is it, Dr. Sunshine and Mr Green or Dr Time and Mr Sunshine and Mrs Green :confused: Well, you get the gist and if I ever recall the expression I'll let you know what it is :)

[onthebit]

Glad to hear that the horse is happier, and I'm sure the people are as well. Turnout can do amazing things for a horse. :)

[outrageous]

:eek::sadsmile: I agree....what is wrong w/ all these people saying to put him down?!?!?! Very very sad,and such a shame that people think this way-i feel bad for that poor horse

Ummm... I'm pretty sure that post was in response to the suggestion about the baskets woven from horsehair, not the suggestions given on this thread.

Alter, I'm glad you have found a temp. solution, and I hope he continues to do well!

[cloudyandcallie]

I'm sorry to say this whole thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. My gelding is very high maintenance - stifle, hock, pastern injections, daily UlcerGuard, insanely expensive supplements, ongoing massage, ongoing chiro, special shoeing, many bouts with Lyme, care for an old ligament injury, etc, etc. This is hardly uncommon with show horses yes? Guess what? He's now retired from showing and I gladly pay for his care on a beautiful retirement farm because he deserves it - and moreover, this is the commitment I made in purchasing him to begin with. He was a wonderful competition partner, but he is hardly useless.

It's amazing what turnout can do. He is now off his ulcer meds (that he has been maintained on for YEARS), barefoot (slow transition), completely happy and enjoying his life. I watched a video of him yesterday madly galloping through the field to his buddies.

I just don't buy "he's too expensive to turn out and maintain" - turnout may very well alleviate what are obviously issues with pain. Let him be a horse for a while and then re-evaluate.

I understand that not everyone buys a horse with the intention of keeping them for life. And I do understand the horse is acting aggressively - dangerously even. But that should tell you something. He's miserable. No one on this thread can tell you what is wrong with your horse. But most of us agree that this horse would almost certainly improve with a lifestyle change.

When he was going well he was good enough to maintain. Now that he's in pain, he should be given a chance to recover.

*sore subject*

Great responsible owner, you are.

[Notanevilalterbutanalter]

update: horse was donated to a rescue/retirement farm. He was turned out, shoes pulled, put in a field with 10 horses, cold turkeyed from meds. He hated it, dropped more weight, paced the fence, etc. For about 2-3 weeks. Then he began grazing, settling, and after 8 months he looked like a brand new horse and SOUND!!! He was adopted out as a lesson horse to do low level flat lessons. He still looks great and is very happy!

[Carolinadreamin']

Wow, that's incredible.

[ESG]

So glad there was a happy ending to his story. Makes quite a case for horses being allowed to be horses, doesn't it? ;)