Nutrition Experts - BOSS is unsafe?

[Auventera Two]

I attended a Purina nutrition seminar last night, and while the speaker was very complimentary of some "non-Purina" stuff like certain oils, beet pulp, flax, etc. she was very opposed to feeding BOSS. She said it is often contaminated with toxins and carcinogens. She said it's definitely something you don't want to feed a horse!

So....hmmm. Has anyone else ever heard this?? :confused: That was a new one to me.

Also, maybe this is a question for Katy - do you have any experience with the Nature's Essentials 32 for a foundered horse? Of course the Purina rep said that 1-2 pounds a day is perfect for a foundered horse. But....obviously she's biased. ;) Just curious if anyone has any info on that particular feed.

[JB]

Given that birds seem to be terribly sensitive to pollution and toxins, I figured if it's not killing birds, it's not going to kill my horses ;)

[Auventera Two]

That makes sense, you're right. lol.

[Texarkana]

I feed BOSS and am happy with the results. I tend to agree with JB that if it's not killing the birds, it's probably not going to kill my horses.

But, it does make me very nervous feeding a product not intended for horse or livestock consumption. Most of the BOSS I've ever purchased very explicitly says on the bag it is for feeding wild birds and "not intended for other uses." I know they put that on there because it's not FDA approved and they don't want people consuming it... but it does make me nervous. If there ever was a contamination issue, all blame would be on the horse owners feeding the BOSS.

Is Nature's Essentials 32 the same as Nature's Essentials Born To Win? I'm just curious because I've never heard of it. And Born To Win is Purina's 32% protein ration balancer. It seems a little redundant to market two of them from the same company.

[merrygoround]

Given that birds seem to be terribly sensitive to pollution and toxins, I figured if it's not killing birds, it's not going to kill my horses ;)

Hmmm! Not sure that is a good analogy. Don't forget cows do nicely on monensin, and some animals can't deal with extra copper in their diets. :no:

I'm sure birds can deal with some dietary items that horses can't.

[Horseshowaddict]

I agree with the ultra sensitivity in birds theory. But also I guess it should be taken with a grain of salt. Many many horse owners are feeding BOSS to their horses and I havent heard of any getting sick because of something "foreign" in the BOSS. That being said, I like boss, but I also like beet pulp, oils, etc etc etc. We only have one horse on BOSS right now, and that was because he HATES oil and was in desperate need of gaining weight. He loves the BOSS so we give him a little bit with each feeding. He is fat and happy now :)

[Cherry]

I've been on the board for several years now and recall at least one incident where a horse colicked and had to go into surgery. The surgeons found tons of sunflower seed hulls clogging up the stomach and the owner was told not to feed BOSS again. If a horse has a problem with dentition that the owner is not aware of I can see how this clogging effect can happen but this scenario was enough to keep me from feeding BOSS to my horse. I can't afford to drag my horse to New Bolton for surgery, nevermind all the other stuff that goes along with it (stress on owner and horse, etc.).... It's just not worth it IMO.

[Daydream Believer]

I had a visitor from Australia a year ago and she said that they add BOSS to horse feeds there. I've been feeding BOSS for years also with no ill effects noted. With the latest price increase of $5/bag, I may not be feeding them for much longer though!

[dressagejudy]

Another difference between birds and horses is that the birds eat the seed inside the shell, and the horse eats both. I don't know if there is a problem with boss or not, just wanted to point out the difference.
As far as the Purina, I heard they were going to rename the Born to Win to another name, so I'm guessing this is the same thing. I had a Lippitt morgan gelding that had slightly foundered. I switched him over to the Born to Win and he did well on it. I was able to feed him more, know that he was getting the vit/min he needed, and not a lot of extra calories. (He would get enough of those from the hay/pasture.)
Judy Gargano

[sublimequine]

My mare thinks sunflower seeds are EW, SOOO GROSS! So I don't have the option either way. :lol:

[JB]

Hmmm! Not sure that is a good analogy. Don't forget cows do nicely on monensin, and some animals can't deal with extra copper in their diets. :no:

I'm sure birds can deal with some dietary items that horses can't.

You're right. However, given the THOUSANDS of horses who consume TONS of boss every year and have for dozens of years, considering how wide-spread the experience on just this one board is (from number of years to number of horses to different continents), it is highly likely that any ill effect of boss would have been ferreted out by now :)

I mean heck, our pasture grasses are likely to be contaminated with toxins, given all the junk in the air and in the soil.

I've been on the board for several years now and recall at least one incident where a horse colicked and had to go into surgery. The surgeons found tons of sunflower seed hulls clogging up the stomach and the owner was told not to feed BOSS again. If a horse has a problem with dentition that the owner is not aware of I can see how this clogging effect can happen but this scenario was enough to keep me from feeding BOSS to my horse. I can't afford to drag my horse to New Bolton for surgery, nevermind all the other stuff that goes along with it (stress on owner and horse, etc.).... It's just not worth it IMO.
I remember that, and don't believe for a second that BOSS caused the problem. The horse had to have been opened up soon enough after eating, or else he had so little stomach acid to break down the boss that it would have had trouble breaking down pretty much anything else too.

[Hampton Bay]

When I tried feeding my mare BOSS, she started acting a bit funny, like she didn't feel well. That was the only thing I had changed, so I immediately stopped feeding it. I figured the shells irritated her stomach.

I can feed her the sunflower seed hearts with no ill effects.

I wouldn't want those seeds passing thru my digestive system. The shells are kinda sharp!

[LivviesMom]

I've been feeding a cup of BOSS per day to my filly for the last year and a half. She was sick once after coming back from 3 days at a huge show, but all the horses come home sick from there!

Touch wood, shes never been sick or lame, but her feet are excellent aside form a farrier created issue, and her coat is shiney and sleek!

[LivviesMom]

When I tried feeding my mare BOSS, she started acting a bit funny, like she didn't feel well. That was the only thing I had changed, so I immediately stopped feeding it. I figured the shells irritated her stomach.

I can feed her the sunflower seed hearts with no ill effects.

I wouldn't want those seeds passing thru my digestive system. The shells are kinda sharp!

Actually the BOSS shelss are quite soft.. and easily digested for most horses.

[Auventera Two]

One comment this lady made in general was that - sure your horse might look fat, healthy, shiny, and energetic now, but will he still be going at 35 or 50, or will he be dead at 20 or 25? She said you have to look at the long term picture and not just how the horse is doing today. Hmmm, it was something to think about, to be sure.

Yes, the Born to Win, and Mare/Maintenance were both renamed. They're now Nature's Essentials 12, and 32.

I've been feeding BOSS for about 6 months and haven't noticed any affect one way or the other, at a rate of 1 cup per horse per day.

[thumbsontop]

Interesting. It seems like several years ago when I first started with BOSS that I remember being told to make sure it didn't have the "healthy bird additives". Is it called Bird-Kote? I'd have to do some searching but I wonder if that's what she's referring to.

[RedMare01]

I don't know about toxins, but I have stopped feeding my mare BOSS.

The BOSS contains a lot of omega-6 fatty acids, which have been linked to inflammation. My mare had been eating them for probably a year and a half, and I stopped feeding them last fall after she had localized reactions to two sets of shots. She had never before had any reaction to shots (and she's almost 14 years old) until last year. After getting the shots in her neck (6 months apart), her neck swelled and was very stiff for up to a week afterward. She was also just very lethargic and NQR. No more BOSS since November/December, and her energy level has picked up tremendously. Had spring shots a few weeks ago too, and no reaction at all.

I think this has something to do with the BOSS, but that is JMO.

Caitlin

[ponyjumper4]

I don't know about toxins, but I have stopped feeding my mare BOSS.

The BOSS contains a lot of omega-6 fatty acids, which have been linked to inflammation. My mare had been eating them for probably a year and a half, and I stopped feeding them last fall after she had localized reactions to two sets of shots. She had never before had any reaction to shots (and she's almost 14 years old) until last year. After getting the shots in her neck (6 months apart), her neck swelled and was very stiff for up to a week afterward. She was also just very lethargic and NQR. No more BOSS since November/December, and her energy level has picked up tremendously. Had spring shots a few weeks ago too, and no reaction at all.

I think this has something to do with the BOSS, but that is JMO.

Caitlin

It's interesting you say that because there is only one horse in my barn on BOSS and he had reactions to his fall shots--weird swellings and it was not the norm for him to react like that.

[Texarkana]

One comment this lady made in general was that - sure your horse might look fat, healthy, shiny, and energetic now, but will he still be going at 35 or 50, or will he be dead at 20 or 25? She said you have to look at the long term picture and not just how the horse is doing today. Hmmm, it was something to think about, to be sure.



:lol:

That's a rather dramatic claim on the rep's part. I think if BOSS could shorten a horse's lifespan by 30 YEARS we surely would have noticed by now. And if I can take my horse off BOSS and have him guaranteed to live until 35 or 50, I'd be tickled to death! :winkgrin:

Food for thought, yes. I'll definitely keep it in the back of my mind and maybe look into it further. Especially since my 21 year old eats a lot of it, 1 1/2 pounds a day, and he thrives on it. But I do think we would be seeing more problems by now if it was truly an unhealthy additive.

[katarine]

I feed them off and on if I can find them w/o bird kote on them...

I thought they'd been feeding them in Austrailia for ages? where are our down under friends??

[Auventera Two]

Oh no, that wasn't in reference to BOSS. It was just a general comment in regard to saying "my horse looks great, shiny, energetic, etc. so he's doing fine." But yeah - sales reps are sales reps for a reason. ;) Take it with a grain of salt. :lol:

[deltawave]

I'd love to know precisely what is meant by this so-called "link" between Omega-6 fatty acids and "inflammation". Nobody can really define what the link IS, or precisely what is meant by inflammation. Remember that not all inflammation is BAD. :) Mostly I think this pseudoscientific proto-rumor is circulated by those selling Omega-3s. :lol:

I would've asked the rep EXACTLY what "carcinogens and toxins" she meant. Probably you would've gotten a big "UHHHHHHHHHH", in which case you can probably chuck it in the rumor bin. :)

[LMH]

Interestingly if you go to nutritiondata.com and look up sunflower seeds (the don't specifically list BOSS)...the 'inflammation factor' is negative-meaning it reduces inflammation.:confused:

[JB]

I'd love to know precisely what is meant by this so-called "link" between Omega-6 fatty acids and "inflammation". Nobody can really define what the link IS, or precisely what is meant by inflammation. Remember that not all inflammation is BAD. :) Mostly I think this pseudoscientific proto-rumor is circulated by those selling Omega-3s. :lol:
Don't you now? It's a "scientific" extrapolation from human studies! ;)

I would've asked the rep EXACTLY what "carcinogens and toxins" she meant. Probably you would've gotten a big "UHHHHHHHHHH", in which case you can probably chuck it in the rumor bin. :)
It's been SURROUNDED by oxygen it's whole growing life - heck, we all know how deadly that can be ;) I bet a bird or two pooped on it, and who knows what sort of pesticides they ate when eating the neighbor's blueberries :D

[BelladonnaLily]

One comment this lady made in general was that - sure your horse might look fat, healthy, shiny, and energetic now, but will he still be going at 35 or 50, or will he be dead at 20 or 25? She said you have to look at the long term picture and not just how the horse is doing today. Hmmm, it was something to think about, to be sure.

Yes, the Born to Win, and Mare/Maintenance were both renamed. They're now Nature's Essentials 12, and 32.

I've been feeding BOSS for about 6 months and haven't noticed any affect one way or the other, at a rate of 1 cup per horse per day.

Well, my 26yo TB mare is still going strong and is fat and shiny...and I've been feeding her BOSS for years. And honestly, I don't think I want her going strong at 50. I want to be retired in FL then ;)

[deltawave]

I don't think horses perceive life that way--getting to 30 isn't necessarily a "victory" to them. :) We are the only species that keeps score, and the only one (except I think elephants) that insists on living for years and years after our reproductive usefulness is over. :p

[EqTrainer]

BOSS is not made by Purina. Get it? :lol:

[Katy Watts]

I dunno. This compared different fats via IV, which just ain't normal. Why would anyone give fat IV? I think it's a long shot to extrapolate to regular ingestion and digestion.
Katy


Shock. 2000 Aug;14(2):222-8
Effect of intravenous infusion of omega-3 and omega-6 lipid emulsions on equine monocyte fatty acid composition and inflammatory mediator production in vitro.
McCann ME, Moore JN, Carrick JB, Barton MH.

The effect of intravenous administration of lipid emulsions enriched with omega-3 (n3) and omega-6 (n6) fatty acids on equine monocyte phospholipid fatty acid composition and the synthesis of inflammatory mediators in vitro was evaluated. In a randomized crossover design, horses were infused intravenously with 20% lipid emulsions containing n3 or n6 fatty acids. Monocytes were isolated from the horses before and 0 h, 8 h, 24 h, and 7 days after lipid infusion. Monocyte fatty acid analysis demonstrated incorporation of the parenteral n3 and n6 fatty acids in monocyte phospholipids immediately after infusion, with changes in the fatty acid composition persisting for up to 7 days after infusion. In vitro production of the inflammatory mediators thromboxane B2/thromboxane B3 (TXB(2/3)) and tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNFalpha) by peripheral blood monocytes was diminished by n3 lipid infusion and was unchanged or increased by n6 lipid infusion. The results of this study demonstrate that short-term infusions of n3 and n6 fatty acid-enriched lipid emulsions alter the fatty acid composition of equine monocyte phospholipids and modify the inflammatory response of these cells in vitro. These results also support further investigation into the use of parenteral n3 fatty acids as part of the supportive therapy of patients with multiple organ dysfunction (MODS) or systemic inflammatory response syndrome (SIRS).

[leheath]

I am not convinced by the 'BOSS is bad because omega-6 causes inflammation' theory. However, I do think you need to balance omega-6 and omega-3. I have been feeding my filly 1 cup of BOSS/day for a year with no ill effects. However, I also feed approx. 2 tbs ground flax. I decided to experiment and took her off the flax and definitely noticed the difference in her coat, which reversed when I put her back on the flax. So, I think it was a balance issue and that little extra omega-3 is needed.

I cannot imagine a stomach irritation unless the horse bolts its food - my horse doesn't (she is actually a rather slow eater in comparison to most horses - she seems to chew each mouthful for ages!), and I have never seen anything that looks remotely like a sunflower seed in her manure. I eat pumpkin seeds whole and they don't irritate my stomach and I have seen grass hay that looks significantly coarser than a sunflower seed!

[LMH]

Actually the seeds can pass through-leaves pretty sunflowers all over!

[caballus]

I don't know about toxins, but I have stopped feeding my mare BOSS.

The BOSS contains a lot of omega-6 fatty acids, which have been linked to inflammation. My mare had been eating them for probably a year and a half, and I stopped feeding them last fall after she had localized reactions to two sets of shots. She had never before had any reaction to shots (and she's almost 14 years old) until last year. After getting the shots in her neck (6 months apart), her neck swelled and was very stiff for up to a week afterward. She was also just very lethargic and NQR. No more BOSS since November/December, and her energy level has picked up tremendously. Had spring shots a few weeks ago too, and no reaction at all.

I think this has something to do with the BOSS, but that is JMO.

Caitlin
The Omega 6's have to be balanced with the 3's (Flax seed) otherwise, yes .. too much will CAUSE inflammation instead of reduce it. As with most anything ... has to be a good balance.

[leheath]

Yes, I have heard about that...unfortunately (because I like pretty sunflowers), I think my horse chews too much for any to get through whole! :)

[JoZ]

I no longer feed BOSS but I didn't stop because I was afraid of toxins OR of build-up in the intestinal tract. I just didn't see any results. I switched to Nutra-flax and am very VERY happy. The 2 oz standard dose works great for the easy keepers (where I'm just looking for healthy coats and hooves) without causing a weight gain. I give 4 oz to the harder keepers. I don't think there's a real "hard keeper" in the barn.

I do miss the sunflowers in the turnouts and manure pile though! Perhaps I'll have to plant some.

[RedMare01]

I am a clinical dietitian by day, so I do sort of know what I'm talking about. (I think) :lol:

I realize that the link between omega 6 and inflammation is not conclusive, but I think that there is a strong correlation and evidence to support the theory. And, my experience with my mare backs up my theory, so I will continue to do what works for us. Which includes no BOSS, at least at this time.

Evidence (albeit from humans, not horses):

Psychosom Med 2007; 69:217-24:
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To address how interactions between polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) levels and depressive symptoms were related to proinflammatory cytokine synthesis. Depression and stress promote proinflammatory cytokine production. Dietary intakes of omega-3 (n-3) and omega-6 (n-6) PUFAs also influence inflammation; high n-6:n-3 ratios enhance proinflammatory cytokine production, although n-3 has anti-inflammatory properties. METHODS: Blood samples from 43 older adults (mean age = 66.67 years, SD = 10.09) provided data on PUFAs and tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha, interleukin (IL)-6, and IL-6 soluble receptor (sIL-6r). Depressive symptoms were assessed by the Center for Epidemiological Studies Depression Scale. RESULTS: Depressive symptoms and n-6:n-3 ratios worked together to enhance proinflammatory cytokines beyond the contribution provided by either variable alone, with substantial variance explained by their interaction: 13% for IL-6 and 31% for TNF-alpha, whereas full models accounted for 18% and 40%, respectively. Although predicted cytokine levels were consistent across n-6:n-3 ratios with low depressive symptoms, higher n-6:n-3 ratios were associated with progressively elevated TNF-alpha and IL-6 levels as depressive symptoms increased. Higher levels of sIL-6r were associated with higher n-6:n-3 ratios. Six individuals who met the criteria for major depressive disorder had higher n-6:n-3 ratios and TNF-alpha, IL-6, and sIL-6r levels than those who did not meet the criteria; excluding these six individuals reduced the variance explained by the depressive symptoms and n-6:n-3 ratio interaction. CONCLUSIONS: Diets with high n-6:n-3 PUFA ratios may enhance the risk for both depression and inflammatory diseases.


Eur J Clin Nutr 2002; 56 Suppl 3:S14-9:
Abstract
Consumption of n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids greatly exceeds that of n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. The n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid arachidonic gives rise to the eicosanoid family of inflammatory mediators (prostaglandins, leukotrienes and related metabolites) and through these regulates the activities of inflammatory cells, the production of cytokines and the various balances within the immune system. Fish oil and oily fish are good sources of long chain n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. Consumption of these fatty acids decreases the amount of arachidonic acid in cell membranes and so available for eicosanoid production. Thus, n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids act as arachidonic acid antagonists. Components of both natural and acquired immunity, including the production of key inflammatory cytokines, can be affected by n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. Although some of the effects of n-3 fatty acids may be brought about by modulation of the amount and types of eicosanoids made, it is possible that these fatty acids might elicit some of their effects by eicosanoid-independent mechanisms. Such n-3 fatty acid-induced effects may be of use as a therapy for acute and chronic inflammation, and for disorders which involve an inappropriately activated immune response.



Biomed Pharmacother 2006; 60:502-7:
Abstract
Anthropological and epidemiological studies and studies at the molecular level indicate that human beings evolved on a diet with a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 essential fatty acids (EFA) of approximately 1 whereas in Western diets the ratio is 15/1 to 16.7/1. A high omega-6/omega-3 ratio, as is found in today's Western diets, promotes the pathogenesis of many diseases, including cardiovascular disease, cancer, osteoporosis, and inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, whereas increased levels of omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) (a lower omega-6/omega-3 ratio), exert suppressive effects. Increased dietary intake of linoleic acid (LA) leads to oxidation of low-density lipoprotein (LDL), platelet aggregation, and interferes with the incorporation of EFA in cell membrane phospholipids. Both omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids influence gene expression. Omega-3 fatty acids have anti-inflammatory effects, suppress interleukin 1beta (IL-1beta), tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNFalpha) and interleukin-6 (IL-6), whereas omega-6 fatty acids do not. Because inflammation is at the base of many chronic diseases, dietary intake of omega-3 fatty acids plays an important role in the manifestation of disease, particularly in persons with genetic variation, as for example in individuals with genetic variants at the 5-lipoxygenase (5-LO). Carotid intima media thickness (IMT) taken as a marker of the atherosclerotic burden is significantly increased, by 80%, in the variant group compared to carriers with the common allele, suggesting increased 5-LO promoter activity associated with the (variant) allele. Dietary arachidonic acid (AA) and LA increase the risk for cardiovascular disease in those with the variants, whereas dietary intake of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) decrease the risk. A lower ratio of omega-6/omega-3 fatty acids is needed for the prevention and management of chronic diseases. Because of genetic variation, the optimal omega-6/omega-3 fatty acid ratio would vary with the disease under consideration.

I can link to the full text of any of the journals if anyone is interested.

Caitlin

[deltawave]

Those are some pretty massive intuitive leaps, especially the part about teasing out SIX individuals in an already underpowered observational study to prove a point, but hey, at least there is study going on about this topic. :yes:

Of course we ALL get to choose what is right for us and our animals based on our learning, personal experiences, and the advice of experts we trust. But I believe the jury is still out--WAY out--on the putative role of Omega-6 vs. Omega-3 on the oh-so-mystical process of inflammation. Such a buzzword! :)

[Appassionato]

I've read here often enough that BOSS is bad for metabolic horses, so I took Bo off of it. I don't know the truth of it (but out of fear I gave the BOSS to a friend); and someone posted a while back a link providing a nutritional list and when I questioned why it was bad for metabolics...my hand got slapped. After that, through no fault of their own, all I got was anecdotal data. I say "through no fault of their own" because they took the horse off the BOSS and they claimed that "voila, problem gone." I'm not slighting either way, just hoping to get some real info.

RedMare01, I would like to read the reports in full on my own if you wouldn't mind PM'ing the links/text.

[RedMare01]

deltawave, perhaps.

But, to me personally, the theory makes sense.

Tell me what else you would have inferred:

Mare is 13 years old, I have owned her since she was four. Has never had a reaction to a vaccine in any form.
Mare goes on BOSS. Everything else stays the same. Same barn, same feed, same turnout, same supplements. Six months later gets a shot (either West Nile or Rabies; can't remember). Has swelling mainly at injection sites, but the entire neck is stiff and sore. She literally cannot put her nose down past her chest. (And we tried. Took her out into a nice, lush grass pasture and she couldn't reach down to eat grass. Torture :lol:). Swelling lasted ~4 days the first time.

Last fall, had another shot (I think a 4-way this time). Same thing, but stiffness/soreness/dare I say it...inflammation lasted close to a week this time.

Took mare off BOSS.
Two-three months later, gets another 4-way shot. No reaction at all.

So, what else could it have been besides the BOSS? It was the only variable factor. Or at least the only obvious one. I guess there could have been aliens sneaking unknown substances into her feed for a few months :lol:.

Caitlin

[RedMare01]

Appassionato,

My computer acting a little wonky and won't let me open the links to the full texts of the articles. When/if I get it to work, I will email them.

Caitlin

[Appassionato]

Appassionato,

My computer acting a little wonky and won't let me open the links to the full texts of the articles. When/if I get it to work, I will email them.

Caitlin

That's fine! I wasn't questioning to be mean, I just like reading things for myself. I either understand it, or I don't. :winkgrin:

[snopbobil]

It's funny Purina is saying BOSS is toxic when there own products are some of the most toxic on the planet, they use cancer causing preseratives in there products, what a joke, Purnia is a joke.

[RedMare01]

Appassionato, completely understand; I'm the same way.

Hopefully my computer will figure it out soon!

Caitlin

[deltawave]

I make it a strict habit to try and NEVER "infer" anything scientific based only upon my own observations, especially of one individual animal or situation.

There are so, so many things that happen to individuals--people that suddenly become allergic to penicillin after taking it repeatedly for 50 years, people who suffer a fracture after a fall that wouldn't have caused so much as a scratch under the same circumstances on another day, sudden and unexplained aches, pains, weird rashes, etc. that come and go without explanation . . . these we call anecdotes and while they may be curious and interesting, they aren't, to me, compelling enough to make me completely change my thinking without a little more in terms of data. However, everyone (as I've said repeatedly) can and should do what THEY consider right and proper based on THEIR beliefs, knowledge, information gleaned, etc. etc. Unless one is dispensing this kind of advice professionally in a system that requires evidence-based decision-making, one can pretty much do and SAY whatever they wish. More's the pity, IMO, in terms of "nutraceuticals" making whacko claims. But that's another pet peeve! :lol:

[Appassionato]

I make it a strict habit to try and NEVER "infer" anything scientific based only upon my own observations, especially of one individual animal or situation.

I agree. I tried to make it so that my post reflected that. I didn't do a very good job. That is my fault. Not that YOU are slapping my hand, but I could have done a better job there.

There are so, so many things that happen to individuals--people that suddenly become allergic to penicillin after taking it repeatedly for 50 years, people who suffer a fracture after a fall that wouldn't have caused so much as a scratch under the same circumstances on another day, sudden and unexplained aches, pains, weird rashes, etc. that come and go without explanation . . . these we call anecdotes and while they may be curious and interesting, they aren't, to me, compelling enough to make me completely change my thinking without a little more in terms of data. However, everyone (as I've said repeatedly) can and should do what THEY consider right and proper based on THEIR beliefs, knowledge, information gleaned, etc. etc. Unless one is dispensing this kind of advice professionally in a system that requires evidence-based decision-making, one can pretty much do and SAY whatever they wish. More's the pity, IMO, in terms of "nutraceuticals" making whacko claims. But that's another pet peeve! :lol:

The scratches and falls would fall under allergic reactions I would suppose (and then under a Rheumie unless I'm wrong)....but your point still stands: just because someone's horse has a strange autoimmune disorder it doesn't mean your horse that has gone untreated (or with the wrong products) has something autoimmune. Nor does it mean BOSS is bad for every metabolic horse. No JOKE about that! After my inquiry about what my horse COULD have, I was almost in tears that I had to starve my horse to death. It's frustrating as Hell and I fully sympathize with the OP. The advisement of "whacko" neutraceuticals...that's a whole 'nother story I could post here but I won't. I'll stur up a hornet's nest among some "sheep." HOWEVER, only with much thought and BLOOD TESTING will I now try Se and Vit. E supplementation because my horse NEEDS it. The "sheeps"? Heck with them. They need a "Ghandi." Even if it's a nobody that speaks loudly. Heck with it, there's no changing their mind. It's amazing to me, the folks that were frustrated at the redneck (me) that wanted testing first. People want sheep, and sheep want a sheepherder. I should put that in my sig line! :lol:

[lindat]

What do you all think of the info at this link?
http://www.prognutrition.com/PDF_Files/PN%20Omega%203's%20in%20Equine%20Diets-d.pdf

We had this posted on another board today and I thought I would pass it on...

[RedMare01]

deltawave, I agree for the most part.

Every horse (and human) is different, and what works for one doesn't always work for another. But, I think that we can learn a lot from personal experiences, even from a scientific perspective, though they are many times unique.

Neutraceuticals are a whole 'nother topic!

Caitlin

[deltawave]

It is a good summary of the topic as it's currently understood, but again it leaves out big, giant blocks of DATA that simply don't exist, describing (for instance) the putative benefits of Omega-3s on stallion fertility, improved immune status of foals due to mares' milk improvement, etc. All of these things are theoretical, not proven. That's not to say they're not so, but speaking only for myself, this kind of imprecision drives me wild. Far too much "stuff" is passed of as factual/proven when it really isn't. Intuitive leaps sometimes leave the "leaper" in a place he/she didn't intend to end up. Just like when jumping a XC course, I like to know where I'm landing before I take off. :)

[Appassionato]

It is a good summary of the topic as it's currently understood, but again it leaves out big, giant blocks of DATA that simply don't exist, describing (for instance) the putative benefits of Omega-3s on stallion fertility, improved immune status of foals due to mares' milk improvement, etc. All of these things are theoretical, not proven. That's not to say they're not so, but speaking only for myself, this kind of imprecision drives me wild. Far too much "stuff" is passed of as factual/proven when it really isn't. Intuitive leaps sometimes leave the "leaper" in a place he/she didn't intend to end up. Just like when jumping a XC course, I like to know where I'm landing before I take off. :)

No offense, but many abstracts can be like that. Hence I wanted to read the whole thing. SOME abstracts word it differently...is it a possibility that some journals/peer reviews require X,Y, and Z in the abstract? I'm not trying to harass you, I'm honestly questioning.

[deltawave]

The Progressive Nutrition article that lindat posted was more of an informational "blurb" than an abstract, per se. It reviewed very casually a lot of the current thinking on Omega-3s without being, in itself, a scientific piece.

There is definitely an art to critically reading an abstract. :) The restrictions that good (peer-reviewed) publications place on authors make it extremely difficult to get the entire "gist" of a study into the requisite 250 words or less. But the general rule of thumb of automatically raising an eyebrow when "leaps of faith" are made still holds true no matter the format. Not all abstracts nor all scientific papers are legitimate works of "research", either--some are just reviews of the current literature, meta-analyses (which are acceptable but not as good as dedicated, prospective studies) and "hypothesis generating" bits of work. It definitely is worth reading the whole article to get the sense of the study design, etc.

In terms of getting published, the paper itself is what is critiqued by the peer reviewers and editors. But no journal is averse to having a "catchy" abstract and there is a definite art to writing them and making them "slick". :)

[JB]

I do miss the sunflowers in the turnouts and manure pile though! Perhaps I'll have to plant some.


Get a 25lb bag,section off the back of the manure pile, and go for it :D

[Appassionato]

The Progressive Nutrition article that lindat posted was more of an informational "blurb" than an abstract, per se. It reviewed very casually a lot of the current thinking on Omega-3s without being, in itself, a scientific piece.

There is definitely an art to critically reading an abstract. :) The restrictions that good (peer-reviewed) publications place on authors make it extremely difficult to get the entire "gist" of a study into the requisite 250 words or less. But the general rule of thumb of automatically raising an eyebrow when "leaps of faith" are made still holds true no matter the format. Not all abstracts nor all scientific papers are legitimate works of "research", either--some are just reviews of the current literature, meta-analyses (which are acceptable but not as good as dedicated, prospective studies) and "hypothesis generating" bits of work. It definitely is worth reading the whole article to get the sense of the study design, etc.

In terms of getting published, the paper itself is what is critiqued by the peer reviewers and editors. But no journal is averse to having a "catchy" abstract and there is a definite art to writing them and making them "slick". :)

I meant in another thread. There was the protein %, fat %, roughage %...I think starch or NSC %....sorry for my proor clarity, but it was another thread that I was speaking of. I'll make a point of finding it for this thread.

But I did hear you about this article and you answered my question about question about abstracts as an overall... my college profs judges them as harshly for just the outlines we provide... :winkgrin:

[3Day-Eventer]

BOSS is not made by Purina. Get it? :lol:

Mine Is!! I buy the Purina brand BOSS. So, they do sell it.

[Appassionato]

On this thread is *some* info, but without Dr. Kellon spin....seems to be straightforward (sort of ...:confused:)...

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=132222&highlight=gabz%2C+BOSS

[LarkspurCO]

For numerous references on fats and nutrition, I recommend the writings of Mary Enig, PhD. Here's a collection that includes many well-referenced pieces addressing topics such as essential fatty acids (omega 3/6/9) and the politics behind many of the popular nutritional beliefs and misconceptions.

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/index.html

[deltawave]

Yeah, well, that site insists that there is no link between cholesterol and heart disease. Tell that to my TWENTY NINE YEAR OLD patient who just had an MI and had NO other risk factors except a cholesterol of 450. :rolleyes:

We are primates. Primates have natural cholesterol levels of 110-150. Only we humans average DOUBLE that amount and are "smart enough" to call that "normal". Oy.

Consider the source of your facts. :)

[yellowbritches]

I don't feed BOSS, have no intention of feeding it. I know people rave about it, but here's my issue with it. If it is such a fantastic source of nutrition, I would think that by now, the feed companies would be using it in their horse feeds somehow. You know, all the companies that spend millions of dollars on research? And I'm not just referring to Purina (saying that as I have been truly happy with all their products until recently), but I don't think (and I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong) that any of the big, most popular companies in the country use BOSS in anything (Nutrena, Pennfield, Triple Crown, Buckeye, Seminole, etc, etc, etc). These companies use nutritionists and vets to figure out what works...that's why I pay a fairly nice premium to use their feeds...I don't feel the need to second guess them.

Again, hoping I will be corrected if I'm wrong, but is BOSS even an ingredient in any of the coat and weight supplements on the market?

[JB]

Mine Is!! I buy the Purina brand BOSS. So, they do sell it.
They don't *make* it though, they just package it ;)

However, I do find it HYSTERICAL that they are dissing boss when they themselves package and sell it :lol::lol::lol: Yet another reason I won't use Purina products.

If it is such a fantastic source of nutrition, I would think that by now, the feed companies would be using it in their horse feeds somehow.
Some are ;) I don't recall who off the top of my head, but there is at least one major brand that has boss in at least some of its products.

but is BOSS even an ingredient in any of the coat and weight supplements on the market?
Not sure about that. Not sure it would be beneficial to use it in those products. Given the normally pretty small serving size of those products, often just a few ounces, having boss as one part of that would mean a pretty small amount of boss, not enough to contribute significantly. But, you do find many of the things that are IN boss in those products.

[deltawave]

Well, sunflower seed oil is almost the same thing as canola oil, safflower oil, etc. Those ingredients are often found in feeds/supplements. There is nothing inherently majikal about sunflower seeds or sunflower oil--it's just a cheap, convenient source of fat/oil that's widely available, easy to handle, and generally palatable. Flax seed is just as good, and even better if you're a big believer in the Omega-3 thing. ;)

[thumbsontop]

However, I do find it HYSTERICAL that they are dissing boss when they themselves package and sell it :lol::lol::lol: Yet another reason I won't use Purina products.



But is it sold as horse feed? I doubt it. I still think this goes back to bird-kote (in response to Purina's comments), and perhaps different regulations for wild bird feed vs. horse feed when it comes to pesticides, etc.

As for why it's not in horse feeds, it's likely because it's cost prohibitive. There's nothing "wrong with it". I've fed it before, and it was a great fat source at the time. I've moved away from it now, but it is a VERY convenient form of fat. I would like to see recommendations from a horse feed nutritionalist, so that max daily serving would be clearer. Right now "a pound of fat, per 1000lbs, per day" would mean around 3 lbs max I think. Rice bran pellets are 2lbs max and it's only 18% fat (i think). I've never fed 3lbs of BOSS, but I wonder if that's truly healthy given other factors. I won't touch the omegas issue - there are many fats out there that aren't right and I'm still waiting for that perfect formula. Perhaps I'll put my horse on Smart Balance oil. :D

[snickerdoodle]

sorry to be so ignorant!

[thumbsontop]

black oil sunflower seeds

[pintopiaffe]

Re: the bad vaccine reaction--nothing else might have changed, but the VACCINE might have.

Adjuncts change. Batches change. Reactions change.

I find Rabies, WNV, flu & strangles to be the most trying to the system. I never give them in conjunction with anything else. *I* personally don't give WNV or flu. Strangles only to the stallion as he travels--but the others have all had it.

Vaccines are amazing and save lives... BUT, they are an immune insult--that's how they work. And just like the penicillin example above, you can give a certain vax for years with no problem, and suddenly there will be a reaction.

I was not allergic to bees as a child. I got stung twice. The third time is going to kill me.

I'm not discounting the BOSS. A mild allergy to it could certainly account for the reaction. My own horse is 'allergic' to soy. Chronic scratches/cellulitis for almost 3 years until I figured it out. He ate soy for 10 years. Then it became a problem. I removed it, all is well. SO a low grade allergy can and would cause that kind of reaction.

BUT, it may or may not be the BOSS. It may or many not be the vax. Certainly it's great anecdotal evidence. ;)

[snickerdoodle]

Thank you

[Texarkana]

However, I do find it HYSTERICAL that they are dissing boss when they themselves package and sell it :lol::lol::lol: Yet another reason I won't use Purina products.



But they package it as bird seed, not as horse feed.

Do you think they should condone it if we all start feeding our horses Dog Chow? :winkgrin:

[deltawave]

Do you think they should condone it if we all start feeding our horses Dog Chow? :winkgrin:

Don't laugh--my Shetland LOVES dry cat food and will eat an entire 5 pound bag if she can get at it. Don't ask me how I know, damn sneaky critter. :rolleyes: I read the label--not a bad source of protein and fat, really. :lol:

The horse food is locked up and inaccessible to equines. Now the cat food is, too. :p

[thumbsontop]

Don't laugh--my Shetland LOVES dry cat food and will eat an entire 5 pound bag if she can get at it.



Keyword: Shetland. Enough said. :lol:

[Ghazzu]

I don't feed BOSS, have no intention of feeding it. I know people rave about it, but here's my issue with it. If it is such a fantastic source of nutrition, I would think that by now, the feed companies would be using it in their horse feeds somehow. You know, all the companies that spend millions of dollars on research? And I'm not just referring to Purina (saying that as I have been truly happy with all their products until recently), but I don't think (and I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong) that any of the big, most popular companies in the country use BOSS in anything (Nutrena, Pennfield, Triple Crown, Buckeye, Seminole, etc, etc, etc). These companies use nutritionists and vets to figure out what works...that's why I pay a fairly nice premium to use their feeds...I don't feel the need to second guess them.



Probably economics.
It's a fairly expensive ingredient in the whole form.
Sunflower meal (left after oil extraction)is a common constituent of livestock feeds. It is an excellent protein source in that regard. The whole seed is also used, but less commonly, mainly due to the $$.

[trubandloki]

If it is such a fantastic source of nutrition, I would think that by now, the feed companies would be using it in their horse feeds somehow. You know, all the companies that spend millions of dollars on research? And I'm not just referring to Purina (saying that as I have been truly happy with all their products until recently), but I don't think (and I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong) that any of the big, most popular companies in the country use BOSS in anything (Nutrena, Pennfield, Triple Crown, Buckeye, Seminole, etc, etc, etc). These companies use nutritionists and vets to figure out what works...that's why I pay a fairly nice premium to use their feeds...I don't feel the need to second guess them.


You think wrong.

I use Nutrena's senior feed and it has BOSS in it. I add a cup of it to my beet pulp mix (to add a little sweetness) and I always have BOSS floating all about. So they are in there whole!

So, there is a major company that has bothered to add it to their feeds.

[Auventera Two]

BOSS is not made by Purina. Get it? :lol:

I already said she was actually very complimentary of some other non-purina stuff. Just not the BOSS.

[JB]

I use Nutrena's senior feed and it has BOSS in it. I add a cup of it to my beet pulp mix (to add a little sweetness) and I always have BOSS floating all about. So they are in there whole!

So, there is a major company that has bothered to add it to their feeds.

Aha, thanks, I was off searching for it as I knew it existed :D

[Auventera Two]

Don't laugh--my Shetland LOVES dry cat food and will eat an entire 5 pound bag if she can get at it. Don't ask me how I know, damn sneaky critter. :rolleyes: I read the label--not a bad source of protein and fat, really. :lol:

The horse food is locked up and inaccessible to equines. Now the cat food is, too. :p

Hey - both times that my Arab Houdinied her way into the barn aisle, she ate around 10 pounds of cat food each time. And the first time she even ate some chicken eggs right out of the nest. All that was left was some little eggshell pieces. Of course this is also the horse that ate a tube of horse wormer while on the loose, and some bute in a tube. I found the plastic tubes mauled and chewed into a little lump with all the contents gone.

This horse I think would literally eat anything if given the chance. I NEVER have a problem with her eating out on the trail. If that mare ever denies food, I will know I have a seriously ill horse on my hands. If I tie her to a tree, she'll start stripping bark.

Last year she even snorkled under the water in the river to pull slimy green vegetation off the rocks. And she made a lunge for, and grabbed, a chunk of some kind of green slime as it floated past her. If it gets in the mouth, it's on it's way to the gutt. No questions asked.

I just laugh that it goes back to her desert heritage. She never knows when she'll be faced with 850 miles of desert and nothing to eat for days. :D

[lindat]

It is a good summary of the topic as it's currently understood, but again it leaves out big, giant blocks of DATA that simply don't exist, describing (for instance) the putative benefits of Omega-3s on stallion fertility, improved immune status of foals due to mares' milk improvement, etc. All of these things are theoretical, not proven. That's not to say they're not so, but speaking only for myself, this kind of imprecision drives me wild. Far too much "stuff" is passed of as factual/proven when it really isn't. Intuitive leaps sometimes leave the "leaper" in a place he/she didn't intend to end up. Just like when jumping a XC course, I like to know where I'm landing before I take off. :)

What I found interesting was the natural balance of Omega 3 to 6 in grasses and forage products the horse would normally eat as a grazing animal.

[deltawave]

But nowadays "they" tell us grass is poisonous for horses, too. You really can't win. :) The world, grass included, just isn't the same as it was in the "good old days". I consider this largely a GOOD thing, but it's certainly debatable on many levels.

[gabz]

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=132222&highlight=BOSS

[yellowbritches]

Thanks to those who cleared up why we don't see BOSS in many products, and thanks for setting the record straight on the products that DO contain it.

I still have little use for it as is...my horses are in good weight with good coats with very little added to their feeds, but always good to learn new things.

[RedMare01]

Re: the bad vaccine reaction--nothing else might have changed, but the VACCINE might have.

Adjuncts change. Batches change. Reactions change.

I find Rabies, WNV, flu & strangles to be the most trying to the system. I never give them in conjunction with anything else. *I* personally don't give WNV or flu. Strangles only to the stallion as he travels--but the others have all had it.

Vaccines are amazing and save lives... BUT, they are an immune insult--that's how they work. And just like the penicillin example above, you can give a certain vax for years with no problem, and suddenly there will be a reaction.

I was not allergic to bees as a child. I got stung twice. The third time is going to kill me.

I'm not discounting the BOSS. A mild allergy to it could certainly account for the reaction. My own horse is 'allergic' to soy. Chronic scratches/cellulitis for almost 3 years until I figured it out. He ate soy for 10 years. Then it became a problem. I removed it, all is well. SO a low grade allergy can and would cause that kind of reaction.

BUT, it may or may not be the BOSS. It may or many not be the vax. Certainly it's great anecdotal evidence. ;)

Maybe, but she had the exact same reaction to two different shots, made by different manufactures. And, no reaction to one of the same vaccines after the BOSS was discontinued.

Caitlin

[Windswept Stable]

One comment this lady made in general was that - sure your horse might look fat, healthy, shiny, and energetic now, but will he still be going at 35 or 50, or will he be dead at 20 or 25? She said you have to look at the long term picture and not just how the horse is doing today. Hmmm, it was something to think about, to be sure.

Yes, the Born to Win, and Mare/Maintenance were both renamed. They're now Nature's Essentials 12, and 32.

I've been feeding BOSS for about 6 months and haven't noticed any affect one way or the other, at a rate of 1 cup per horse per day.


hmmm I am not sure that many horses are going to be still kicking at 35 or 50 anyway. And honestly--with the problems they get as they age--is that really your goal?
Seriously--she sells Purina. Of course she wants to sell you something they make.
If BOSS was going to hurt them--it would probably be shorter term evident as a toxicity problem--- which many of us have not encountered... And it would NOT show up as preventing longevity to 35 or 50. If that is what they preached--I really would have a hard time appreciating the validity of anything they said. Hope your free meal you got was at least good!
I recently bought some Nature's Essentials for my broodmares---THEY won't touch the stuff.