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mcorbett
Mar. 11, 2008, 10:47 AM
I'm totally ignorant about what to look for in a TB's pedigree. What are good bloodlines that I should know about? Educate me!

Eventer55
Mar. 11, 2008, 11:07 AM
I don't breed, but like to keep track of stallions that produce just in case I breed my mare. I like anything Denny has, A Fine Romance, Spectacular Bid and I would like to know if a NY stallion has produced any sport horses, his name is city Zip.

Eventer55
Mar. 11, 2008, 11:09 AM
I may have to edit because I don't think A Fine Romance was on the track. . . not sure.

flyingchange
Mar. 11, 2008, 11:12 AM
I don't know about City Zip's progeny in the show world, but I have galloped several of them and backed one (a filly) last year. They are all AWESOME. Very, very trainable - they want to please and the ones I've ridden are quite competitive, but not nasty/mean - rateable and kind.

Arcadien
Mar. 11, 2008, 12:01 PM
Well, off the top of my head, Chieftan, Hail to Reason, Believe It, In Reality, Turn-To, & Caro are names that have appeared frequently in upper level eventers. A decade or so ago I started a database on pedigrees of all TB's running at 3 & 4 star level. It was interesting to see the repeats... and just as interesting to see the names you'd expect that weren't there that often.

I'll try to dig it up and throw out some more names if I get a chance.

Do you have a specific pedigree in mind? If so, toss it out on the racing BB you'll get a lot of comments.

Regards,
Arcadien

Ravencrest_Camp
Mar. 11, 2008, 12:04 PM
I may have to edit because I don't think A Fine Romance was on the track. . . not sure.

He was bred for the track, but never raced.

Ravencrest_Camp
Mar. 11, 2008, 12:06 PM
I don't breed, but like to keep track of stallions that produce just in case I breed my mare. I like anything Denny has, A Fine Romance, Spectacular Bid and I would like to know if a NY stallion has produced any sport horses, his name is city Zip.

Makes me really anxious to see the foal we have coming this year. It will be out of a Spectacular Bid mare, by a son of Popeye K. :D:D

Meredith Clark
Mar. 11, 2008, 12:31 PM
Swaps produced some good sport horses but was def. a racehorse himself.

WindyIsles
Mar. 11, 2008, 12:36 PM
Caro. Caro. Caro! :yes:

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 11, 2008, 12:45 PM
There are lots to look for but depends on where you are.

One that I like but is hard to find is Foligno. He stood here in MD and I haven't meet one yet that couldn't Jump high and move well. One son won the MD hunt cup twice. He died a few years ago so they are getting hard to find.

I also love Hawaii in a pedigree as well.

Easier to find that I like is Turn To, In Reality, and Majestic Light. There are many others as well....but of course it depends on the individual horse.

mcorbett
Mar. 11, 2008, 12:45 PM
My mare is by:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/take+the+plunge

and out of:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/presquile+lass

I see Turn-To is listed, and he's a good one, is he?

Any other ones on there that look good?

maxxtrot
Mar. 11, 2008, 01:00 PM
i always look for the buck lines ie...buckaroo,buckfinder,buckpasser ect...i bred those lines here for my personal future eventers. will be breaking the first one this spring. but they all jump and are good movers. all the bucks have beautiful heads as well.

imapepper
Mar. 11, 2008, 01:04 PM
Damascus, Raja Baba, In Reality, Black Tie Affair, Caro, Northern Baby and Roberto are some of my favorite names. I also really liked Saratoga Six.

WindyIsles
Mar. 11, 2008, 01:06 PM
There are lots to look for but depends on where you are.

One that I like but is hard to find is Foligno. He stood here in MD and I haven't meet one yet that couldn't Jump high and move well. One son won the MD hunt cup twice. He died a few years ago so they are getting hard to find.

So funny you mention Foligno! My favorite schoolie at college here is Fleishman who is sired by Foligno :) He's a super jumper, AWESOME personality, cute as a button (tiny at 15.1 and narrow as a pole but since I'm 4'10 he fits me perfectly. My instructor calls him the oversized pony :lol:).

Arcadien
Mar. 11, 2008, 01:29 PM
I like your horses Turn-To on top through Cyane, getting rarer these days! Good old sound long lasting blood.

Others I see that crop up multiple times on my UL event horse DB: Owen Tudor, The Axe, Mahmoud. Bold Ruler & Man o'Ware blood is there, common nowadays, but never hurts.

Some nice, hard knocking racehorses there. Good luck with him.

Arcadien

mcorbett
Mar. 11, 2008, 01:36 PM
sweet. my mare is 12 and to my knowledge she's never had any soundness issues! nice big bones...

denny
Mar. 11, 2008, 01:41 PM
Way back:
Hail to Reason
Hawaii
Never Bend
Ribot
Cormac
Hunter`s Moon 4th
Bonne Nuit--(and New Twist, Good Twist,Night Lark, all Bonne Nuit line horses)
The Hammer (almost extinct)
Mystic 2nd (a little can go a long way!)
Bold Ruler (a little can go a long way!) (and son Bold Bidder)
Tom Fool (and son Buckpasser)
Those are some I like, there are plenty of others I`ve forgotten.

Badger
Mar. 11, 2008, 01:46 PM
Ditto Never Bend, Majestic Light, Caro, etc.

Adding:
Sir Ivor
Stage Door Johnny

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 11, 2008, 01:46 PM
So funny you mention Foligno! My favorite schoolie at college here is Fleishman who is sired by Foligno :) He's a super jumper, AWESOME personality, cute as a button (tiny at 15.1 and narrow as a pole but since I'm 4'10 he fits me perfectly. My instructor calls him the oversized pony :lol:).


They do seem to come in all sizes! I have mare by him who is 16.3 hands...tall but not a real big girl. I've know a few others that were 16.2+ hands. Another friend bred her warmblood mare to him and got a little one...not even 16 or she might just be 16 hands....doing extremely well in the hunters but probably would have evented too!

He's known in this area....his race babies were often very good turf horses or timber horses.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 11, 2008, 01:58 PM
How could I forget Bonne Nuit! I like Denny's list. I've known several horses with those lines up close. I remember a jumper mare that was by Mystic and another Mystic son (gelding)....they were very good jumpers---might be showing my age there!;)

This is my to be brood mare's pedigree (she's due in June)

http://www.pedigreequery.com/charm18


If we start talking about some of the TBs oversees the list could get really long (but very hard to find in OTTBs from the states).

MyMare
Mar. 11, 2008, 02:17 PM
I dont know much about blood lines, expect that Im Not a huge fan of Storm Cat.

But what do you think of these lines for an eventer (or a horse in general): Affirmed (grandsire on dams side), Forty Niner, and Mr Prospector?

Edited to add Majestic Light and Tri Jet are also in there.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 11, 2008, 02:21 PM
But what do you think of these lines for an eventer (or a horse in general): Affirmed (grandsire on dams side), Forty Niner, and Mr Prospector?


I had a grand son of Forty Niner.....he was a very nice type. Granted, he had a wonderful dam line and sire dam line as well. I expect him to go at least to the ** level and perhaps further (will be cheering him on with his new owner). Sucker has a great jump and is a nice mover....plus just a character. If he had been a girl....I would not have sold him;)

http://www.pedigreequery.com/seeker4

ETA: I like Forty Nine since that get's you Tom Rolfe on the dam side. Mr. Prospector is not a sire I nec. seek out, but he is in a whole lot of pedigrees now.

MyMare
Mar. 11, 2008, 02:28 PM
BornFree- Thanks! I checked out your guys pedigree. The guy I was talking about is actually a half brother to yours. They have the same sire. The one I was talking about just has an Affirmed mare on the bottom. Can you tell me a little more about your guys personality, attitude undersaddle? Im looking to possibly by the guy Im talking about and Im looking for a horse with a great brain and one* + potential!

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 11, 2008, 02:45 PM
BornFree- Thanks! I checked out your guys pedigree. The guy I was talking about is actually a half brother to yours. They have the same sire. The one I was talking about just has an Affirmed mare on the bottom. Can you tell me a little more about your guys personality, attitude undersaddle? Im looking to possibly by the guy Im talking about and Im looking for a horse with a great brain and one* + potential!

I will send you a PM so this doesn't go too far OT.

MyMare
Mar. 11, 2008, 02:47 PM
Thanks!!

Guyot
Mar. 11, 2008, 03:20 PM
by Strike the Gold out of an Affirmed mare! Would buy another in a heartbeat! great head, very,very trainable! and built to last....had 67 starts and had x-rays like a 2month old!:yes:

chukkerchild
Mar. 11, 2008, 03:23 PM
Hmm, my horse has Turn-To top and bottom, and Hail to Reason on top.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/kiss+a+plenty

I LOVE the Tom Rolfe lines. I've known a few horses that have Tom Rolfe and they are so athletic and CUTE jumpers! And that includes my hunter. Haha.

MontyEvent
Mar. 11, 2008, 03:41 PM
Any comments on this pedigree?

My Horse (http://www.pedigreequery.com/.)


:)

Granada
Mar. 11, 2008, 04:10 PM
Here's a fun website w/ a lot of articles:http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/articlesbloodlines.htm

The "Sire lines of international Jumpers" articles that were published in Cronicle are fun to read for general lines, like Teddy, Rock Sand, Le Sancy, Bay Ronald, Marcovil, Nearco/Nasrullah etc. They're on that website

My favorites that I haven't seen mentioned yet are Princequillo and his son Round Table. Briarctic, Son of Briarctic.

Love Buckpasser in a pedigree (worth repeating) And love Bull Dog.

And love Sky Classic babies too... which reminds me of Nijinsky, though it would be expensive to buy a mare w/ sky classic top right now :)

I agree on the storm cat, I don't think they are known for soundness, and every one I've seen is too downhill. Though there are successes.

mythical84
Mar. 11, 2008, 05:02 PM
My mare was out of a Buckpasser line (he was her grandfather on her sire's side) and I'd kill for another one just like her.

blue&blond
Mar. 11, 2008, 05:05 PM
Hi all,

What about my boy? Any comments?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/the+b+boys

mew
Mar. 11, 2008, 06:00 PM
I have a Regal Classic baby, who is really talented. He has thrown some really good jumpers, who have nice movement. This is his bloodlines http://www.pedigreequery.com/regal+award (yes he was an *awful* racehorse.

Samantha37
Mar. 11, 2008, 06:04 PM
How about my boy? Comments, please! I know he is a SC grandson, and a lot of people don't like them...
He is unraced/unregistered, so here is his dam:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/verreaux

and sire:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/stormin+fever

He is really quiet, with lovely movement... he is only 4 and 16.3 and still figuring out his legs so I will have to wait to see what kind of a jumper he is ;)

Arcadien
Mar. 11, 2008, 06:14 PM
Okay you guys are going to make me go dig out my old database - TB pedigree addict in me can't fail to respond!

Alas still at work, so give me a few hours when I get home and I'll be back with some stories of which UL eventers your horses are closely related to!

Arcadien

sisu27
Mar. 11, 2008, 06:32 PM
I know nothing about bloodlines nor how to research anything but I am very curious. If anyone can contribute anything on the horse below I would be grateful.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+hobo+joe

Also, he has 4 full siblings I would love to know anything about:

Anniversarypresent2, First Class Air, Random Gold and Slipper Slew.

Thanks!

rennyben
Mar. 11, 2008, 07:09 PM
I'd always heard these generalizations while working in FL's racing/breeding industry - some of these from racing folk pertaining to racing some from people who seek out H/J/Event prospects from track rejects...

Seattle Slews - good source for fancy, good movers & jumpers
Storm Cats - too much speed they don't mature enough physically to handle it so they break down quickly, I don't know what would happen if you didn't push a Storm Cat for 10 second time as a 2 yo.
Mr. Prospector - you have to be careful with the legs, he had poor front legs and passed them on
Caro - professional attitude, all class
Sovereign Dancer (and sons -- Dins Dancer, Louis Quatorze, etc) -- v. aggressive, bad attitudes, etc... I had one - he was an A$$. I got to know Dins Dancer's owner after aquiring said A$$hole -- she told me horror stories about Dins Dancer and his sire Sovereign Dancer.
Raise a Native - sound, quality using horses

I love TB breeding and bloodlines. I'm interested to hear any other generalizations. I wish I knew more about the dams. I know 2 mares who are out of the same dam, different sires - both have the same quiet, friendly, easy going personality.

mbj
Mar. 11, 2008, 07:21 PM
Foligno was good at siring sound, athletic horses. He stood locally here in SE PA at the Lymans Farm.
The thing that might be nice about getting a Storm Cat baby (not necessarily true of grandchildren) is that with a stud fee of around $300,000 and a rep of getting fast but unsound babies, you KNOW the mom was probably going to be terrific--classy and correct. The Storm Cats I've seen were pretty and sweet in a show hunter way with pretty heads and nice big butts. But tended to be downhill,as poster said.

Centuree
Mar. 11, 2008, 07:28 PM
Personally, I like Tbs with Mr. Prospector third generation or less, in the bloodlines. Although he himself was only 16hh, his offspring and offspring's offspring seem to be leggy and extremely athletic. Seen a couple that I absolutely love.

2869
Mar. 11, 2008, 07:36 PM
I had a horse by Foligno. He was 15.2 and boy could he jump. I did a xc clinic w/JW once and he said "there are not many horses in the world that can jump like that!". I was quite pleased w/that!
I had a grandson of Mr. P that went advanced w/a YR I sold him to.
Right now I have a horse by Patton out of a Dynoformer mare (Barbaro's sire) that has a classic jump. I also have a horse by Sword Dance out of a Damascus mare that loves xc and is super athletic.
Nothing like an OTTB!!!!
I also had a Two Punch horse that wasnt that much into the Xc but has made a terrific hunter.

Badger
Mar. 11, 2008, 07:48 PM
Good link, Granada, thanks. I found the following article there:

The Blueprint of an Event Horse
http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/cgi-bin/csArticles/articles/000001/000113.htm

It mentions:
Babamist
Nearco/Nasrullah
Royal Charger
Mahmoud
Princequillo
Turn-To
War Relic
Hyperion
Native Dancer
Ribot
Northern Dancer
Never Bend
My Babu
Heliopolis
Alibhai
Count Fleet
Khaled
Hawaii
Tank's Prospect
Cinteelo
Horatius
Secretariat
Buckpasser
Dr. Fager
Sir Ivor
Raise a Native
Mr. Prospector
Nijinsky II
Vaguely Noble
Mill Reef
Stage Door Johnny
Pass Catcher
Mystic II
Tourbillion
Explode 2nd
Majestic Light
L'Amour Rullah
Lear Fan

One other name that wasn't in the article but is a good influence: TV Lark.

Appsolute
Mar. 11, 2008, 08:11 PM
Oh oh Oh I want to play too! My Filly is ½ TB.. and my all time favorite horse.. my OTTB that I had to put down..:(

I don’t know much at all about breeding, I just know some of the more famous names in my horse’s pedigree.. any one care to fill me in more?

My filly is out of Universal Dancer http://www.pedigreequery.com/universal+dancer

She is a granddaughter of Raise a Native
And a great granddaughter of Bold Ruler

I also see Count Fleet, Turn-To (IRE) , through Hail to Reason and the Dam line of La Troienne (FR) through Big Hurry.

WAY back there I also have Hyperion, Bull Dog, Nearco, and Discovery.

And my beloved Gelding.. he was ½ Irish and unraced (although tattooed and trained at the track).

Gage.. registered as Kunga John:lol: http://www.pedigreequery.com/kunga+john

To-Agori-Mou Can any one tell me any thing about this sire? I know he was Irish, and won a bunch over seas.. that’s it.

His dam was by Double Jay Can any one tell me about him? (this is actually his only American line).

Gage was a great classy horse, I picked him up as a cheap OTTB, but was told he was a big money yearling at one time.

Granada
Mar. 11, 2008, 08:24 PM
Hi all,

What about my boy? Any comments?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/the+b+boys

blue&blond, I love your horse's pedigree! Love his dam sire line (w/ Damascus, Round Table, a great female tail w/ alibhai) and his Female tail line is great all the way down the line, too many names to list esp on willies joy. Then of course Seattle Slew is great and makes the 4x5 on Round Table (loff him:yes:) And Raise a Native usually gives a nice jump too... Well there isn't any horse in this pedigree that isn't well bred!

If he's your's have fun w/ him :winkgrin:

Samantha37
Mar. 11, 2008, 08:26 PM
The Storm Cats I've seen were pretty and sweet in a show hunter way with pretty heads and nice big butts. But tended to be downhill,as poster said.

That sounds like my boy! Lovely big butt... He is growing like a weed and will be very correctly built for a few weeks, and then is majorly butt-high :)

Here he is a couple of weeks ago at our first show:
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r222/ssilver3722/Vereaux/CSF%202%2023%2008/Yay.jpg


Thank you for the information on the bloodlines, everyone!!

solargal
Mar. 11, 2008, 08:29 PM
Who would of known? Have a bunch of horses with Caro in the pedigree. This guy was sold for $400 and not a thing wrong with him. Just didn't want to race. I think we measured him at 17.2 or 17.3. He was 3 at the time. I was really upset when I found out, because I had tried to take him before that and he wasn't for sale.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/unbridled+illini

Granada
Mar. 11, 2008, 08:29 PM
His dam was by Double Jay Can any one tell me about him? (this is actually his only American line).

Gage was a great classy horse, I picked him up as a cheap OTTB, but was told he was a big money yearling at one time.

Double Jay imparts soundness and jump. He's a great horse to have in a sport pedigree, or so I have heard. My horse has him too... but I've seen the sport breed posters comment on him all the time:D

Love the pedigrees on both your horses... if I have the energy/time I'll comment on them more;)

Granada
Mar. 11, 2008, 08:33 PM
How could I forget Bonne Nuit! I like Denny's list. I've known several horses with those lines up close. I remember a jumper mare that was by Mystic and another Mystic son (gelding)....they were very good jumpers---might be showing my age there!;)

This is my to be brood mare's pedigree (she's due in June)

http://www.pedigreequery.com/charm18


If we start talking about some of the TBs oversees the list could get really long (but very hard to find in OTTBs from the states).

bornfree, your mare's pedigree is amazing!:yes: would love to see pics of her foal when it hits the ground:D

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 11, 2008, 08:34 PM
Who would of known? Have a bunch of horses with Caro in the pedigree. This guy was sold for $400 and not a thing wrong with him. Just didn't want to race. I think we measured him at 17.2 or 17.3. He was 3 at the time. I was really upset when I found out, because I had tried to take him before that and he wasn't for sale.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/unbridled+illini


Was he sold to a sport home or do you not know where he ended up?

solargal
Mar. 11, 2008, 08:36 PM
Was he sold to a sport home or do you not know where he ended up?


He was sold to a sport home at a paddock sale.

Granada
Mar. 11, 2008, 08:39 PM
Was he sold to a sport home or do you not know where he ended up?

Wow, what a beautiful horse. Whoever ended up with him got really lucky, I hope he is at a good home.

blue&blond
Mar. 11, 2008, 08:44 PM
blue&blond, I love your horse's pedigree! Love his dam sire line (w/ Damascus, Round Table, a great female tail w/ alibhai) and his Female tail line is great all the way down the line, too many names to list esp on willies joy. Then of course Seattle Slew is great and makes the 4x5 on Round Table (loff him:yes:) And Raise a Native usually gives a nice jump too... Well there isn't any horse in this pedigree that isn't well bred!

If he's your's have fun w/ him :winkgrin:


WOOO HOOO!! Thanks Granada! :D Yup, he's mine. OK, OK, he's my daughter's new boy and I really like him. He's a pleasure to be around and just as sweet as they come.

We've had him for a few months and I've been wanting to post and ask opinions but just hadn't up to now.

This thread has been so very interesting! I know TB bloodlines for racing but not for other disciplines. - GREAT!

elmerandharriet
Mar. 11, 2008, 09:07 PM
arent clever trick lines good in eventers

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 11, 2008, 09:07 PM
bornfree, your mare's pedigree is amazing!:yes: would love to see pics of her foal when it hits the ground:D


Thanks! Fingers are crossed...and so is everything else that crosses.

WindyIsles
Mar. 11, 2008, 09:25 PM
They do seem to come in all sizes! I have mare by him who is 16.3 hands...tall but not a real big girl. I've know a few others that were 16.2+ hands. Another friend bred her warmblood mare to him and got a little one...not even 16 or she might just be 16 hands....doing extremely well in the hunters but probably would have evented too!

He's known in this area....his race babies were often very good turf horses or timber horses.

Fleishy is dainty dainty - I love him to pieces though and he and I make a great pair. Got a wicked jump too :yes:

WindyIsles
Mar. 11, 2008, 09:28 PM
blue&blond, I love your horse's pedigree! Love his dam sire line (w/ Damascus, Round Table, a great female tail w/ alibhai) and his Female tail line is great all the way down the line, too many names to list esp on willies joy. Then of course Seattle Slew is great and makes the 4x5 on Round Table (loff him:yes:) And Raise a Native usually gives a nice jump too... Well there isn't any horse in this pedigree that isn't well bred!

If he's your's have fun w/ him :winkgrin:

Friend had a Seattle Slew son (gelding) I was helping retrain (Friend literally found him with covered in mud and keeping company with cows :lol:).

OMiH smartest horse I've ever met (in the quick-learner-that-was-FUN!-what's-next-whee! way) :D. Not extremely big maybe 16-16.1 but tried his heart out and just adored working.

Loved him to pieces and was so sad when he was sold :(

Miss Perfect
Mar. 11, 2008, 09:34 PM
I see several of the mentioned sires in my boy's pedgree (Turn-To X 3!).

http://www.pedigreequery.com/designated+devil

He's the spitting image of his daddy, Devil His Due. My fingers are crossed for a decent sport horse!

ss3777
Mar. 11, 2008, 10:00 PM
Don't forget:

Numbered Account
Private Account
Hoist the Flag

this is my guy:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/flagstone+blue

QHEventr
Mar. 11, 2008, 10:27 PM
Here is my guys pedigree. He ran advanced, qualified, but unfortunatly never ran his *** and was a double medalist at NAYRC. He was long listed and on the developing riders squad.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/diamondham

He is doubled up in Swaps, by way of Khaled which I adore (he managed to escape the bad attitude that can come with too much swaps however)

Also has Turn To by way of royal charger, Raise A Native, etc.

He is an incredible athlete, and I have been searching for another bred like him.

Johanna

Foxtrot's
Mar. 12, 2008, 12:11 AM
Badger: You pinched all my suggestions, but I will add Dark Ronald and Owen Tudor, and special empahsis on French horses that jump
raced.

Granada
Mar. 12, 2008, 12:40 AM
I see several of the mentioned sires in my boy's pedgree (Turn-To X 3!).

http://www.pedigreequery.com/designated+devil

He's the spitting image of his daddy, Devil His Due. My fingers are crossed for a decent sport horse!

Devil his Due is suppose to be a really good sport stud. People seek him out, if your boy looks like him... fancy fancy fancy! :D

Granada
Mar. 12, 2008, 12:47 AM
Don't forget:

Numbered Account
Private Account
Hoist the Flag

this is my guy:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/flagstone+blue

ss, I agree w/ your additions. I've commented on your boy's pedigree before.. but I Love Private Account/Damascus love Hoist the Flag! Your horse's pedigree is wonderful, He's a poster child for sport lines LOL. And he should be staying very sound w/ a dam line like that.

Granada
Mar. 12, 2008, 12:51 AM
Here is my guys pedigree. He ran advanced, qualified, but unfortunatly never ran his *** and was a double medalist at NAYRC. He was long listed and on the developing riders squad.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/diamondham

He is doubled up in Swaps, by way of Khaled which I adore (he managed to escape the bad attitude that can come with too much swaps however)

Also has Turn To by way of royal charger, Raise A Native, etc.

He is an incredible athlete, and I have been searching for another bred like him.

Johanna

QHEventer, I love your horse's pedigree... for the reasons you stated... and for Eight Thirty on the female tail line. love him in a pedigree:D Good luck finding another one like this:winkgrin:

tarheelmd07
Mar. 12, 2008, 08:27 AM
Here's the pedigree of the TB I've been riding -- any thoughts?
http://www.pedigreequery.com/r+huey
I see a few names that have been mentioned here -- Damascus, Tom Rolfe, Bold Ruler, Northern Dancer -- but I don't know much about anyone else in his family tree :)

He is a great jumper though...and was an ok racehorse too...who's still going strong on xc at the age of 20!

LarissaL
Mar. 12, 2008, 12:18 PM
Anyone know anything of Fusaichi Pegasus in sporthorse lines? I know his first crops are still very young. Anything in his pedigree of note? I see lots of recognizable common names, not enough of an expert to see much else :winkgrin:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/fusaichi+pegasus

I'm considering a young one sired by him, dam has many names mentioned here - Caro, Hoist the Flag/Tom Rolfe, Turn To, Bold Ruler, Fortino (link below mentions sired eventers?) etc.

Also, a search turned up a post with a link to someone's (SHB forum) detailed list of influential TB sires
http://www.meadowviewfarm.com/TBSHbloodlines.htm

Jleegriffith
Mar. 12, 2008, 12:27 PM
I own this guy- http://www.pedigreequery.com/epizootic2 private account as a sire and a nice stakes mare named Kimera (by Caro). He took a fall steeplechasing and never was the bravest event horse but he can jump the moon and we did really well in recognized dressage and jumper. Always has been sound and looks amazing now at age 21.
21yrs old- http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2505255650058815717Jofyle

Fence2Fence
Mar. 12, 2008, 01:39 PM
I also love Hawaii in a pedigree as well.



My TB is from a Hawaii line. Brave as a lion, and when he's forward, has a lovely big stride.

This is his sire's (In the Zone) line: http://www.pedigreequery.com/in+the+zone

Whatever the reason, the people I bought him from didn't register him. His damn ("Princess Nice") doesn't show up in the pedigree database.

Granada
Mar. 12, 2008, 04:20 PM
Anyone know anything of Fusaichi Pegasus in sporthorse lines? I know his first crops are still very young. Anything in his pedigree of note? I see lots of recognizable common names, not enough of an expert to see much else :winkgrin:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/fusaichi+pegasus

I'm considering a young one with him as a sire, dam has many names mentioned here - Caro, Hoist the Flag/Tom Rolfe, Turn To, Bold Ruler, Fortino (link below mentions sired eventers?) etc.

Also, a search turned up a post with a link to someone's (SHB forum) detailed list of influential TB sires
http://www.meadowviewfarm.com/TBSHbloodlines.htm

I like his Bold Irish Female tail... and everything else He's obviously a beautiful horse, proven racing and great pedigree... did you see what he went for as a yearling:eek: He's going for a bargain $45K right now, which could be his lowest fee depending on how things go in the next few years:winkgrin: But I wouldn't go w/ a young mare since he only has one (or 2?) crops so far, also, he doesn't look like he has great lines for soundness, but his pics look like he has good leg conformation and nice big feet that match his thick build (Mr. Prospector tends to pass on small feet I've heard).

But I really have no experience w/ breeding. I think it's neat your thinking about sound sport lines as well as racing.

We should look for his OTTB geldings in a few years to compete:D

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 12, 2008, 04:23 PM
My TB is from a Hawaii line. Brave as a lion, and when he's forward, has a lovely big stride.

This is his sire's (In the Zone) line: http://www.pedigreequery.com/in+the+zone

Whatever the reason, the people I bought him from didn't register him. His damn ("Princess Nice") doesn't show up in the pedigree database.


love his pedigree, there is a lot I like in there..bet he can jump too. Is he a bit opinionated?

LarissaL
Mar. 12, 2008, 04:31 PM
We should look for his OTTB geldings in a few years to compete:D

That's my goal with the little girl :) She's, I believe, 4 and her owner's personal issues prevented her from making it to the track. I have yet to see her in person but sounds as though she could be a really athletic lady.

Granada
Mar. 12, 2008, 04:40 PM
That's my goal with the little girl :) She's, I believe, 4 and her owner's personal issues prevented her from making it to the track. I have yet to see her in person but sounds as though she could be a really athletic lady.

I completely misread your post LOL:lol: I thought you were considering a young one to breed to him haha. I was thinking you were crazy and that his stud manager wouldn't even look at a young unproven mare w/ him right now. LOL but like I said I know very little about breeding.

Yeah, you should snatch up that young one:yes: Esp if it inherited his big feet and great butt and has decent legs. You know the mare had to be outstanding if they let her breed to him in his first few years as a stud, if the girl is 4, then she was bred in his first few years, I think his first year was actually 2002... and his stud fee was 100K a few years ago, I think it was 75K last year:eek:

Good Luck!

LarissaL
Mar. 12, 2008, 04:51 PM
I completely misread your post LOL:lol:

Probably because I'm no good with the breeding terminology! Or with language in general. Or with money for that matter.. coming up with $45k for a stud fee is a little out of the realm of reality for me :lol:

Fence2Fence
Mar. 12, 2008, 05:01 PM
love his pedigree, there is a lot I like in there..bet he can jump too. Is he a bit opinionated?

Oh, yes, is he ever opinionated! Some days I'm ready to attach a PhD to his name and be done with it! :) I'm assuming this comes from Hawaii? (I wish I knew what his damn pedigree is. *sigh*)

He loves to jump, has a really good eye--goes right to the base of the fence 99% of the time.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 12, 2008, 05:11 PM
Oh, yes, is he ever opinionated! Some days I'm ready to attach a PhD to his name and be done with it! :) I'm assuming this comes from Hawaii? (I wish I knew what his damn pedigree is. *sigh*)

He loves to jump, has a really good eye--goes right to the base of the fence 99% of the time.


Hawaii and In Reality....also Bold Ruler. He has a lot in his pedigree that says ...opinionated but athletic TB. I do like them a bit opinionated.:lol: We usually share the same opinion about dressage!

Debbie
Mar. 12, 2008, 05:14 PM
My old OTTB mare, who I adored, had Blushing Groom (http://www.pedigreequery.com/blushing+groom) as a grandsire. I've seen quite a few others of that line and liked them all -- very athletic looking.

Foxtrot's
Mar. 12, 2008, 05:20 PM
This is why we need a registry that will record the successful sport horses and bloodlines so these big, uphill, bold, jumping machines bred for classic distances, can be saved and not diluted with the speedy sprinters that are being bred for today's North American races.
PHR was supposed to record these...but somewhere along the way it hasn't happened. The Grand Nationonal or Badminton horses - yum.
These are the horses we should be putting into our mare base.

Granada
Mar. 12, 2008, 05:44 PM
Hawaii and In Reality....also Bold Ruler. He has a lot in his pedigree that says ...opinionated but athletic TB. I do like them a bit opinionated.:lol: We usually share the same opinion about dressage!

Mine's a Bold Ruler 3x4... he can be quite opinionated lol. here's his pedigree:http://www.pedigreequery.com/bold+words2

His full brother is competing training level, and his nephew through his full sister is competing CIC**.

I've known other's w/ Bold Ruler that have nice jumps too:)

imapepper
Mar. 12, 2008, 06:11 PM
Here is a good example of what a TB sporthorse pedigree should look like.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sea+accounts

Miss Perfect
Mar. 12, 2008, 08:26 PM
Devil his Due is suppose to be a really good sport stud. People seek him out, if your boy looks like him... fancy fancy fancy! :D

Most excellent news! :yes: And yes, Desi is fancy, fancy, fancy! He's so black that his dapples shine blue, and he has a huge shoulder and big butt. He also looks to be a little more uphill than Devil His Due.

Can you tell I'm in love and a proud momma?:rolleyes::p

BasqueMom
Mar. 12, 2008, 08:45 PM
Okay, can't help myself...gotta through my guy's pedigree out there.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/basque+fantasee

Was told he had good eventing lines--raced for 5 years, came off sound, thought I
had died and gone to horse heaven when EPM reared it's ugly head after 8 months
together. After several more bouts of the nasty stuff, he's mostly a pasture ornament.

My other OTTB also has lots of the names mentioned but he's not in pedigree query.

vineyridge
Mar. 12, 2008, 09:02 PM
Okay, here are two.

One is the filly that I've had since she was six months old, and I'm hoping will be either an eventer or dressage horse. Her conformation (neckset and butt) are good for either, and I still don't know what the final result will be of ratio of body to leg since she's only 2 1/2. She's big bodied, but I worry about her legs being big and strong enough to support that body in XC. Temperament--very sweet, pushy, and bold.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/amountainoftrouble

Here's one I came within a hair of buying for a sport horse broodmare. I'm still yearning for her, but she seems to have disappeared from the track. She's a nice looking, small boned mare, who looks a lot like her fifth dam.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/hillside+sunrise

I do wish I weren't so old; the years it takes for a multi-generation breeding program just aren't there.

vineyridge
Mar. 12, 2008, 09:25 PM
Okay, can't help myself...gotta through my guy's pedigree out there.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/basque+fantasee

Was told he had good eventing lines--raced for 5 years, came off sound, thought I
had died and gone to horse heaven when EPM reared it's ugly head after 8 months
together. After several more bouts of the nasty stuff, he's mostly a pasture ornament.

My other OTTB also has lots of the names mentioned but he's not in pedigree query.

Basque Mom, your guy's wonderful. :D

The thing about so many of the names farther back is that those are the good/great horses that mare owners wanted in their foals. Lesser lights might have died out. Those are the lines that have survived.

Claiborne imported Blenheim II, Nasrullah, and Princequillo. Their stallion manager didn't think much of any of them before he saw what they put on the ground. Now they are the foundation horses that we look to for quality.

Horatius just died fairly recently, and you in the Mid Atlantic ought to keep your eyes out for his get if you can find them.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 12, 2008, 10:26 PM
Okay, here are two.

One is the filly that I've had since she was six months old, and I'm hoping will be either an eventer or dressage horse. Her conformation (neckset and butt) are good for either, and I still don't know what the final result will be of ratio of body to leg since she's only 2 1/2. She's big bodied, but I worry about her legs being big and strong enough to support that body in XC. Temperament--very sweet, pushy, and bold.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/amountainoftrouble

Here's one I came within a hair of buying for a sport horse broodmare. I'm still yearning for her, but she seems to have disappeared from the track. She's a nice looking, small boned mare, who looks a lot like her fifth dam.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/hillside+sunrise

I do wish I weren't so old; the years it takes for a multi-generation breeding program just aren't there.


With your filly's pedigree....I bet she is a lovely mover. Hope that other filly ended up in a good home!

Robby Johnson
Mar. 12, 2008, 11:15 PM
Basque Mom, your guy's wonderful. :D

The thing about so many of the names farther back is that those are the good/great horses that mare owners wanted in their foals. Lesser lights might have died out. Those are the lines that have survived.

Claiborne imported Blenheim II, Nasrullah, and Princequillo. Their stallion manager didn't think much of any of them before he saw what they put on the ground. Now they are the foundation horses that we look to for quality.

Horatius just died fairly recently, and you in the Mid Atlantic ought to keep your eyes out for his get if you can find them.

I absolutely love Fappiano and would look for him in a sporthorse pedigree. My horse Rhodes Point was by Press Card (Fappiano). Becky Douglas' Courageous Comet is also a Fappiano grandson. Aaron Vale used to do one in the GP's that looked nearly identical to Rhodes, and I found a Fappiano great-grandson for a friend that I loved online (actually loved him before I saw his pedigree). I know there's a lot that goes into a breeding, especially when you're talking grandsire, but the ones I know are great movers, great jumpers, and have great minds and temperaments.

vineyridge
Mar. 13, 2008, 12:56 AM
He was sold to a sport home at a paddock sale.

This was the Fairmount Park Paddock sale last fall, and I believe LAZ may have picked him up. I know she talked about him.

Need to add SeaBird and his son Arctic Tern, and Prince Chevalier. And Beau Pere is a name to look for. I'm assuming, I hope correctly, that lines that do well in the UK in NH racing would be good bets for eventing. Beau Pere is the most recent and closest descendant of Son-in-Law to stand in the US, and Son-in-Law was extremely influential in warmblood breeding.

Bornfree...., the reason I was fixated by Hillside Sunrise, besides the Herbager, is her tail female line to Selene. Aren't many of those in existence, and she's as good a mare in the shed as ever lived.

BasqueMom
Mar. 13, 2008, 01:12 AM
Vinery Ridge,

Thanks for the compliment. Now to find Cash's papers and get him entered into
Pedigree Query.....

Ravencrest_Camp
Mar. 13, 2008, 10:17 AM
http://www.pedigreequery.com/a+bid+spectacular

What does everyone think of this mare?

2869
Mar. 13, 2008, 12:00 PM
Here is the "love of my life"
http://www.pedigreequery.com/lazer+sword

CC
Mar. 13, 2008, 12:13 PM
Someone mentioned Clever Trick. Here's my horse, a grandson:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/blacken+sword
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?&p=999&uid=8697474&gid=16108431&&imgid=270521043&offset=600

He successfully ran over timber until age 11. Although he only had non-NSA wins he did run in the New Jersey Hunt Cup but never made it to the MD HUnt Cup.

He's a big-boned guy with a big stride and I was told by his former trainer/rider that the 3'6" timber was easy for him.

I have not been able to find a picture of either his sire or dam to see where he inherited his build and stamina at a distance. His dam's sire looks more like a sprinter to me. He has a full brother and sister, neither did much on the flat and did not run over jumps. I would sure love to see if either of them are built like a tank! If anyone knows of a grey gelding named Grey Foresome or a dark bay mare named Chic Chic Aboom, let me know!

Granada
Mar. 13, 2008, 12:18 PM
Here is the "love of my life"
http://www.pedigreequery.com/lazer+sword

Love his female tail w/ Intentionally and Reines de course! And of course nijinski and damascus are right up close and the Secretariat cross duplicate 3x3. Neat pedigree! Do you know how much he went for as a yearling? Is he the horse in your profile page? If it is, he's beautiful!

2869
Mar. 13, 2008, 12:45 PM
Granada

He was sold as a yearling for $2500 at Keenland and then for $27000 at Fasig tipton as a 2 yo. At the time of FT, he had shattered a hind splint bone so I dont know if that affected his price or not. He raced on it and it has never caused an issue for me. Yes, he is the one in my profile.

Here is my other guy who "hopefully" I will sell this summer (well maybe ;) )
http://www.pedigreequery.com/reigle+kali+ko+var

vineyridge
Mar. 13, 2008, 02:11 PM
6869, take a look at the conformation photo of Princequillo. Your guy has some linebreeding to him, and he's a very solid horse with lots of bone.

2869
Mar. 13, 2008, 03:00 PM
vineyridge: If you look at the Sword Dance conformation photo, that is exactly what my horse lance looks like and I see a lot of similarities to Princequillo.

pony grandma
Mar. 13, 2008, 03:15 PM
Here is the "love of my life"
http://www.pedigreequery.com/lazer+sword


Love his female tail w/ Intentionally and Reines de course! And of course nijinski and damascus are right up close and the Secretariat cross duplicate 3x3. Neat pedigree! Do you know how much he went for as a yearling? Is he the horse in your profile page? If it is, he's beautiful!

16 green star mares!!! Be still my beating heart. Waaaay too bad he's not a she!

pony grandma
Mar. 13, 2008, 03:21 PM
This is why we need a registry that will record the successful sport horses and bloodlines so these big, uphill, bold, jumping machines bred for classic distances, can be saved and not diluted with the speedy sprinters that are being bred for today's North American races.
PHR was supposed to record these...but somewhere along the way it hasn't happened. The Grand Nationonal or Badminton horses - yum.
These are the horses we should be putting into our mare base.

Please!! The Sport Thoroughbred should be a breed!

Foxtrot's
Mar. 13, 2008, 03:39 PM
I've never included Northern Dancer on my list of "most desirables", partly because they are in most pedigrees. Anybody care to comment? I just found it hard to sort out his influence, making the difference between sporthorse and speed.


Nothing like a good, sane, sound, uphill TB that can move and jump.

Drvmb1ggl3
Mar. 13, 2008, 03:48 PM
Good link, Granada, thanks. I found the following article there:

The Blueprint of an Event Horse
http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/cgi-bin/csArticles/articles/000001/000113.htm

It mentions:
Babamist
Nearco/Nasrullah
Royal Charger
Mahmoud
Princequillo
Turn-To
War Relic
Hyperion
Native Dancer
Ribot
Northern Dancer
Never Bend
My Babu
Heliopolis
Alibhai
Count Fleet
Khaled
Hawaii
Tank's Prospect
Cinteelo
Horatius
Secretariat
Buckpasser
Dr. Fager
Sir Ivor
Raise a Native
Mr. Prospector
Nijinsky II
Vaguely Noble
Mill Reef
Stage Door Johnny
Pass Catcher
Mystic II
Tourbillion
Explode 2nd
Majestic Light
L'Amour Rullah
Lear Fan

One other name that wasn't in the article but is a good influence: TV Lark.

That list covers about 99.99999% of all TBs worldwide. Nearco alone is probably in the pedigree of close to 90% of living TBs.

With breeding the idea is to narrow down the factors that seperate the great from the not so good, not cast your net so wide as to include every horse.

Btw, why are Nearco and Nasrullah connected by a slash, and not Royal Charger, or indeed any of the other Nearco descendants on that list?

Appsolute
Mar. 13, 2008, 04:03 PM
What do the green stars mean? My filly's dam had 19... (and to be fair Lazer Sword had 23, if you count the 5th generation)


16 green star mares!!! Be still my beating heart. Waaaay too bad he's not a she!

Jazzy Lady
Mar. 13, 2008, 04:21 PM
Sorry to interrupt the OTTB chat, but can anyone tell me anything about Laudanum? http://www.pedigreequery.com/laudanum He's my guy's grandsire. I don't know if he ever raced, but did GP jumpers.

FairWeather
Mar. 13, 2008, 04:24 PM
by Strike the Gold out of an Affirmed mare! Would buy another in a heartbeat! great head, very,very trainable! and built to last....had 67 starts and had x-rays like a 2month old!:yes:

guyot, mind if I ask what his name was? One of my favorite horses we listed on CANTER had this breeding. He was lovely, but I understand he was involved in an accident at Flora Lea and had to be put down :(
I think about him often. I hope it's not yours...:(

vineyridge
Mar. 13, 2008, 04:38 PM
Sorry to interrupt the OTTB chat, but can anyone tell me anything about Laudanum? http://www.pedigreequery.com/laudanum He's my guy's grandsire. I don't know if he ever raced, but did GP jumpers.

Laudanum is probably the most famous TB sire of GP jumpers in the past twenty years. He stood in France, so there are lots of Selle Francais by him.

There's a whole article about him on The Horse Magazine online here:
http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/GREAT_STALLIONS/Laudanum/laudanum.html

You can also read an article about the man who stood him for so many years there as well:
http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/Great_Breeders/leCourtois/leCourtois.html

Foxtrot's
Mar. 13, 2008, 04:46 PM
Astrid of Eurodresssage also did an article about him.

pony grandma
Mar. 13, 2008, 04:47 PM
What do the green stars mean? My filly's dam had 19... (and to be fair Lazer Sword had 23, if you count the 5th generation)

Go to www.reines-de-course.com to read about a female dam line scoring program that a "woman' had to start up, back in the 1990s, to give TB mares the recognition that they deserve. The stallions have far more production by the numbers out there so their success has always been more visible and they have already had statistical programs for the stallion get in place. A friend told me that 7-8 green stars starts to be good, 9-10 is really good and 12+ is exciting! It takes a couple of generations for the mares to get their star so you will only see them in the 3rd (maybe), 4th, and 5th generations. A horse like Seattle Slew that sold for pennies compared to the millions that they sell for now - he had a huge number of green star mares in his pedigree but the program wasn't in existence then and his pedigree didn't stand out. So his performance and breeding success wasn't just a fluke.

Neat, huh :)

Jazzy Lady
Mar. 13, 2008, 04:58 PM
Thanks Vineyridge! I've had trouble finding much info about my boy's pedigree online. :)

LarissaL
Mar. 13, 2008, 04:58 PM
vineyridge,
I noticed in another TB thread, you mentioned a few horses by Broad Brush that you liked. This mare is a full sister to Dr Litin - what do you think of the line in terms of sporthorse potential for her offspring?
http://www.pedigreequery.com/northwest+colors

[sorry for my multiple posts on this thread - still very much in the learning stages of bloodlines!]

vineyridge
Mar. 13, 2008, 05:25 PM
Broad Brush has quite a few Phalaris lines, and the Ack Ack is a total outcross for almost everything these days. But her damline is almost exclusively Phalaris. If you were to breed her, and, Lord knows she has a huge number of successful and athletic horses close up (:D) who are big names in sporthorses, you would want to be careful how much more Phalaris you put in the foal. I would consider going back to anything but Phalaris for the next generation. Another dose of the Man O'War lines would be useful or the Ribot line.

Although I have nothing against the Phalaris lines--the Nearcos, Native Dancer, and Northern Dancer in sires and dams--you need to watch to keep the coefficient of inbreeding in five generations as low as possible.

Get some more of hybrid vigor in the next generation, and you can afford to go back to Phalaris in the one after that.

Edited to add: I hadn't even thought about not breeding to a TB. :)
If you're going to go with a warmblood, because of Ack Ack, you won't have to worry about too much Phalaris in the TB side of the equation.

If it's the filly by Fu Peg that you've talked about, that much Phalaris would scare me into the next room.

Laurierace here bought a son of Fu Peg at auction for racing. I'm sure if you PM'd her, she would be happy to talk about the sire line.

In case you're wondering who Phalaris is, he is the sire of, among others: Pharos (Nearco), Pharamond (Menow/Tom Fool), Fairway (Fair Trial/Court Martial), Sickle (Native Dancer), and a whole bunch of others. I'd say that 99.9 percent of Modern TBs have at least 8 lines to Phalaris, and the majority have quite a few more. The overuse, sometimes up to 18 or more lines back to him in fewer than 10 generations, is speculated to be a large part of the rise in unsoundness in the modern TB.

justdream2ride
Mar. 13, 2008, 05:48 PM
My knowledge on bloodlines is a big fat ZERO!!!

Anyone know anything about these two??

http://www.pedigreequery.com/global+dream

http://www.pedigreequery.com/bonus+check2

THANKS :)

LarissaL
Mar. 13, 2008, 06:02 PM
If it's the filly by Fu Peg that you've talked about, that much Phalaris would scare me into the next room.

Yep that's it. I've never truly examined a potential purchase's pedigree before.. I'm always sold by looking at them in person. Heck, I don't even vet them.

If you don't mind expounding on the thoughts of strong Phalaris influence in both sire and dam lines.. what is the disadvantage? I understand the dangers of inbreeding, but to my uneducated eye, it appears the influence is a few generations diluted (perhaps that's not the right word..).

Again, I apologize for my lack of education on the subject. In a bit of quick research (for anyone who may be as lost as I - a short summary), I've found that Phalaris is one of the founding sires of modern day racers. According to an article on www.chef-de-race.com crosses can be noted as P/P, P/NP, NP/P, or NP/NP - where P is Phalaris descendent, NP as descendent from other and it goes sire/dam.

The article (here (http://http://www.chef-de-race.com/articles/evolution_of_bloodlines.htm)) implies that P/P crosses are now the dominant version of current stakes winners.


"In less than twenty years P/P has easily displaced P/NP as the dominant bloodline cross among North American graded stakes winners. The displacement has advanced to such an extent that it effectively precludes a major P/NP resurgence. What seems most likely is that not only P/NP but all bloodline combinations involving NP will continue to decline in the face of evolutionary pressure from P/P. Just as the Bold Ruler sire line has lost its preeminence, P/NP is slowly but inexorably fading from the scene." (backup data is in the article, first main table)

Wouldn't this seem to mean that those of us choosing OTTB's will often run into this cross? Related to the question above, that is something to avoid? Is there a reason breeding for stakes winners will produce something detrimental to a sporthorse? I know (I mean, think I recall hearing) that people prefer the distance runners as sporthorses, and the data in the article shows the P/P lines began as sprinters (or at least shortER distance runners) but as of 2006, were winning at roughly equivalent distances as other crosses.

I hope I'm not coming across as as big an idiot as I feel, but this is really interesting to me as I am a frequent buyer of OTTB's.

vineyridge
Mar. 13, 2008, 06:07 PM
My knowledge on bloodlines is a big fat ZERO!!!

Anyone know anything about these two??

http://www.pedigreequery.com/global+dream

http://www.pedigreequery.com/bonus+check2

THANKS :)

Bonus Check is quite impressive on paper. He's got some very solid and useful lines throughout. You do know that Princess Rooney is in the Racing Hall of Fame, don't you? And Woodman's Image had 48 starts, which is a good sign of soundness, which you want to be careful of with Mr. P line horses. Plus, you go back to Hawaii In fact, there isn't a line in his five horse pedigree that I wouldn't like to see in a sporthorse.

Global Dream doesn't look as good on paper. Even though Thunder Gulch won over 2 million dollars, he's not got what I'd call sporthorse conformation. On the bottom side, he doesn't have many of the lines that we know have made their marks in sport. That's not to say they don't produce athletes, but it's just harder to see them on paper.

imapepper
Mar. 13, 2008, 06:15 PM
vineyridge,
I noticed in another TB thread, you mentioned a few horses by Broad Brush that you liked. This mare is a full sister to Dr Litin - what do you think of the line in terms of sporthorse potential for her offspring?
http://www.pedigreequery.com/northwest+colors

[sorry for my multiple posts on this thread - still very much in the learning stages of bloodlines!]

The fact that she is by Broad Brush is nice....what impressed me is that she is OUT of Winning Colors.
Winnings: 19 Starts: 8 - 3 - 1, $1,526,837

At 3:
Won Santa Anita Derby (G1), Kentucky Derby (G1), Santa Anita Oaks (G1), La Centinela S.
2nd Breeders' Cup Distaff S. (G1), Las Virgenes S. (G1), Maskette S. (G1)
3rd Preakness S. (G1)
4th Spinster S. (G1)
At 4:
Won Turfway Breeders' Cup S.
4th Maskette S. (G1)

1988 Eclipse Champion Three Year Old Filly.

One of three fillies to ever win the Kentucky Derby.
Elected to Hall of Fame in 2000.

justdream2ride
Mar. 13, 2008, 06:18 PM
vineyridge

WOW - thank you sooo much! Bonus Check never went to the track I got him as a very untouched 2 yr old - he's mostly done dressage and some lite jumping - due to time issues on my part. But really want to get him out and doing this year - he is very very fancy but very easily offended!

Global raced until age 7 I think and did quite well (we've had him about a year and a half now) - but you are spot on about his conformation!!

Thank you again - I really appreciate it !!!!

horsecents
Mar. 13, 2008, 06:21 PM
Just bought this guy as an event prospect: http://www.pedigreequery.com/stilt+walker

Have heard a lot of good things about the Fappiano bloodlines. Elegant under saddle and knows where his feet are over fences sums up my new guy plus a great brain for a 50+ rider.

vineyridge
Mar. 13, 2008, 06:36 PM
I hope I'm not coming across as as big an idiot as I feel, but this is really interesting to me as I am a frequent buyer of OTTB's.

If this is hijacking the thread too much, we can take this private.

It's not so much P/P tail male that bothers me and so many others. It's the undeniable fact that Phalaris is becoming a single source for TB blood in the US. The other NP lines in sire and dam are converging into P lines.

If you think about the racing careers of horses like Nasrullah and Sickle and Northern Dancer, they were not long. Many of the Phalaris line horses had speed but were very short lived on the track. If one wants to infer unsoundness, I doubt if one would be too far off the mark. The NP blood in the dams helped moderate the P sire lines, but when all the male blood in a pedigree is P, then, to my thinking anyhow, the P lines propensity to weak legs is the cause of the short careers so many modern racers have and the leg problems so many of the OTTBs end up with. Training, of course, makes a huge difference, as does the modern propensity for sprint racing. (I think that may come from the QH racing backgrounds of so many big time trainers these days.) So do economic factors which don't allow the luxury of much time off between races.

But, given the known genetic roulette of too much Phalaris, that's why it's a benefit to find NP line stallions on P line mares, and vice versa. That is one reason why Australian and NZ horses seem so much tougher than many of our OTTBs.

Ellen Parker, who has the Reines-de-Course site, has also written about the Phalaris problem, as have a number of other TB breeding commentators.

As long as you are buying to use and not to breed, go with the horse and not the pedigree. You're always playing soundness roulette in any purchase, and knowing what weaknesses are likely to come from the immediate sire and dam ought to be enough.

As to Fu Peg, I would check into his reputation pretty carefully before I committed to one of his.

It's when you are BREEDING for the future of TBs that the outcross and linebreeding/inbreeding aspects are so important. There are still a few NP sire lines out there, and they need to be preserved.

2869
Mar. 13, 2008, 06:43 PM
I had this horse as well but sold him a couple of years ago... terrible name

http://www.pedigreequery.com/l+ratt

But he was a super jumper (but not the bravest xc). He's the one in my earlier post that Jimmy W really liked.
I wished he was a little bigger. I just never feel comfortable on horses under 16.0h even though Im pretty short at 5'4"

vineyridge
Mar. 13, 2008, 06:48 PM
Just bought this guy as an event prospect: http://www.pedigreequery.com/stilt+walker

Have heard a lot of good things about the Fappiano bloodlines. Elegant under saddle and knows where his feet are over fences sums up my new guy plus a great brain for a 50+ rider.

Not only do you have Fappiano as grandsire on top, but you have Trempolino as damsire. He is a wonderful horse to find so close in a pedigree, and is making a reputation as a damsire. His sons aren't chopped liver themselves. He won the Arc and stands/stood in France. And he does have sporthorse conformation. :)

Your horse is an example of P/P with a lot more P, but since you won't be breeding him, all you have to do is keep him sound. ;)

Foxtrot's
Mar. 14, 2008, 01:12 AM
Ellen Parker is a gift to the thoroughbred world.

But are these Queens of the Turf, while great mare families, necessarily the families that make sporthorses? It gets a bit complicated for me. Also, what is the difference between them and Blue Hen Mares. (Vineyridge - ?)

Is it good to count the green stars going way way back?

rivenoak
Mar. 14, 2008, 02:03 AM
Tried this over on the Racing forum, but only got two nibbles...wrong place?
Comments on the two following?

"Dutch" http://www.pedigreequery.com/dutchs+dandy
Baby hasn't been off the ranch yet. Gallops at home and maybe one ride out into the desert and that's it. I'm considering this as project/prospect, especially because of his size: 15.1. I'm into short these days. Grey.


"Timmy" My once-in-a-lifetimer. :sadsmile: http://www.pedigreequery.com/kentucky+rauf
Got this one off the track as a 3 year old, when I was 16 (eons ago), and trained up to a nice show & field hunter. Raced lightly as a 3 year old, to no success. I got him in June of his 3 year old year. Paid $800. Everyone laughed, 'cause he apparently sold for $78k as a yearling at Keeneland.

Navicular syndrome & in the pasture, unsound by 11, after a stellar 2nd career as a show hunter on the local member/B circuit. Did Eq & Jumper classes on occasion, too, with equal success. Went in a plain snaffle and no martingale. Same gear worn in the hunt field, too.

Total pocket pony, with moments of Dennis the Menace. Plain bay. Gorgeous.

15.3hh, 00 shoes. Makes me leary of tiny feet, I'll tell you what.

Another Kentucky Gold 3 yr old gelding had been for sale at the same time, but Timmy was friendlier. The sibling went unsound as a riding horse in his 4 year old year; not sure if he ever came back. His name was something like "Vianto."

"Lurch"
Wish I knew the breeding of my last TB, but I don't. He wasn't tattooed, either. AZ-bred monster; looked like a warmblood. Approx. 1999 model; I'd have to think about it a bit or look at some paperwork to be sure. Complete lug. Worked as the pony horse for a racing outfit before I bought him. Reportedly had a sibling eventing here, but I don't know its name.

In any case, I appreciate any & all comments on the bloodlines. :yes:

vineyridge
Mar. 14, 2008, 02:31 AM
Blue Hen is just an earlier term for Ms. Parker's Reines. I don't think it was ever used in a formal system; just that great producing mares (in the US?) had the term applied to them.

The wonderful list of blue hen mares that used to live at equineinfo.com is gone. There was some wonderful stuff on that site, including some interesting pedigree analyses by Floyd Oliver, and it's all gone, damn it. I wonder if it's in the Wayback Machine.

I personally think that certain great mares are good to find in any TB, including sport horses. Then there are some who should be avoided when looking for sport horses, and some to be searched for. And some that if you find them in tail female, you jump up and down and start screaming. The Brits and Irish have proved with their special lines of National Hunt mares that the things we should be looking for can be passed down through the mares. Our problem is that the records we have over here don't allow for segregating good sport horse producing lines from general racing lines because sport (and jumps racing) is so relatively unimportant and no longer specially bred for, except by a few men in Pennsylvania. ;)

Granada
Mar. 14, 2008, 02:53 AM
I want to find a young one by Kiridashi off the track. What do you all think?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/kiridashi

I'm not likely to see one in CA though.

Kementari
Mar. 14, 2008, 03:16 AM
I've never included Northern Dancer on my list of "most desirables", partly because they are in most pedigrees. Anybody care to comment? I just found it hard to sort out his influence, making the difference between sporthorse and speed.


Nothing like a good, sane, sound, uphill TB that can move and jump.

When I was horse shopping long ago, I was told to be extra careful of the front legs on Northern Dancers because they tended to soundness issues there. Having seen so many of them be so successful, I now wonder what was up with that advice - anyone else ever heard such a thing? At any rate, I passed up a ND granddaughter because of it; her pasterns were just the slightest touch long (probably something I would have overlooked in favor of her other traits - no horse is perfect! - had I not been specifically told to watch out...).

Of course, I ended up with my favorite boy, so bad advice or no, I'm glad I kept looking! Here he is: http://www.pedigreequery.com/move+over+moon

2869
Mar. 14, 2008, 07:36 AM
I love Kiridashi's confo photo!!!

riva1
Mar. 14, 2008, 08:18 AM
Ok - I'm amazed at the knowledge you have vineyridge. This is my guy that I bought as a three year old. He was just too slow for the track. He has a great brain (well, except when it's cold out). He loves to jump - get's his knees up and tight, he's a very pretty mover & he loves kids. He is definetly a pocket pony.
He's well balanced. I can't say he really uphill, but he's certainly not downhill. I'm really curious on your thoughts of his breeding.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/booming+fever

LarissaL
Mar. 14, 2008, 11:00 AM
Ok - I'm amazed at the knowledge you have vineyridge.

As am I. It's greatly appreciated! Sorry to have taken the topic OT for a few minutes there.

Foxtrot's
Mar. 14, 2008, 01:49 PM
I went through the Blue Hen list when my mare was born - l3 years ago. But while they were outstanding mares and producers, for us I think they were still in pedigrees designed to produce flat runners. In France, Ireland and UK, I'm not familiar with the US Maryland Hunt Cup horse bloodlines, one can look at the steeplechasers and eventers and see a whole different animal. Bigger, bonier and good footed. Amongst those are some that move well, and can jump with style. Tooooo sad the endurance factor is less now. When my mare was inspected, while she won her inspection, she did not make premium because he said he rarely saw TB mares that would make premium unless they were on the Kentucky breeding farms and not available to the average breeder. He liked to see bone on a horse so they could stand up to the work early and go for sale! Now, I have never seen those mares.

Again - we need that data base and the information supplied to the PHR, and soon.

Foxtrot's
Mar. 14, 2008, 01:58 PM
Master Spiritus - now there's one. He sired a whole bunch of top British eventers, including one Ginny Leng rode, Master..?
Way back in his pedigree are all the same old names. He was not used a whole lot in racing, but used in sporthorses as they are called now.

masoethe
Mar. 14, 2008, 03:05 PM
http://www.pedigreequery.com/wings+from+heaven

Little bugger is great mover and can jump the moon, if you can ride the additional 'airs' in between. She's about as sweet as they come.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 14, 2008, 03:17 PM
http://www.pedigreequery.com/wings+from+heaven

Little bugger is great mover and can jump the moon, if you can ride the additional 'airs' in between. She's about as sweet as they come.


Any pictures of her??

masoethe
Mar. 14, 2008, 03:36 PM
I'll have to see if I can find some. Sad thing is that she's completely sound and has been a pet for the better part of 4 years! New job, new husband, new house, new farm, new baby...life keeps getting in the way!

eSpresso
Mar. 14, 2008, 03:59 PM
http://www.pedigreequery.com/charltons+amy

Comments on my mare?
She's got:
Nearco/Nasrullah
Mahmoud
Princequillo
Hyperion
Double Jay
Bold Ruler

vineyridge
Mar. 14, 2008, 04:19 PM
Folks, my latest post, which caused a great deal of mental effort, just got eaten when the mouse fell off the table.

Very depressing. :( To me at least. :)

vineyridge
Mar. 14, 2008, 04:41 PM
http://www.pedigreequery.com/wings+from+heaven

Little bugger is great mover and can jump the moon, if you can ride the additional 'airs' in between. She's about as sweet as they come.

She ought to be able to jump the moon. Her dosage index is very high, and some say that indicates lots of short twitch capable muscle fibers, which are needed in jumping.

You are SO lucky to have her. I second the "Pics, please"

useventers
Mar. 14, 2008, 04:45 PM
I like Essence of Dubai, http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=4639622&origin=singlesearch.
His babies are just starting to run now, but I'm interested to see how they move and jump when they start coming off the track.
He's a super looking horse, very uphill and I've noticed most of his 2yo's selling at the sales are built the same. Although, I haven't seen any as nice looking as him.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 14, 2008, 04:47 PM
If you think about the racing careers of horses like Nasrullah and Sickle and Northern Dancer, they were not long. Many of the Phalaris line horses had speed but were very short lived on the track. If one wants to infer unsoundness, I doubt if one would be too far off the mark.

It's when you are BREEDING for the future of TBs that the outcross and linebreeding/inbreeding aspects are so important. There are still a few NP sire lines out there, and they need to be preserved.

What are those NP lines?

I'm not sure I agree that lots of Phalaris, in and of itself, means unsoundness. My mare's dam (in this pedigree http://www.pedigreequery.com/charm18 ) and the dam of two of my other horses, has a lot of Phalaris. She had 100 starts and retired clean legged and sound. TOUGH didn't even beging to describe Izzy. My mare was bred to run over fences...her doseage is off the charts for speed but my understanding is this also isn't an unusual approach for a dosage for a steeple chase horse. My mare is also extremely tough...so I while I don't disagree with what you are saying....I think it is hard to say that Phalaris is responsible for unsoundness issues.

masoethe
Mar. 14, 2008, 05:06 PM
Thanks Vineyridge! I bounce back and forth on selling her because she needs consistency, and I don't have a lot of time with a new baby. But she's such a part of the family now.

I lost her gorgeous Cordini (Corde/Lincoln) filly last year. That filly definitely wanted to event. She was already schooling water, ditches, and downed trees at 3 months. We'll try for a re-breed this year. I'm hoping a little warmblood infusion will increase rideability.

What is the dosage index?

Equine Obsession
Mar. 14, 2008, 05:07 PM
What would you expect from this guy:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/synatitas+secret

He has really gorgeous movement. He's very friendly and has just been out at pasture for a couple years after he didn't run well. His owner has told me he has a great jump on him. What do you think sporthorse TB wise?

LarissaL
Mar. 14, 2008, 05:12 PM
Bornfree,
I have one of the same type and had one back in the day. Can't break them. The one I have now has Nearco (Phalaris) running through every sire line of his grand-dams and -sires. Retired OTT at 8, xrays look like an unbroke unworked horse.
Righteous Struggle (http://www.pedigreequery.com/righteous+struggle)

The other I had back in the late 1990's and the horse literally never went lame. Vetted and xray'd 100%. Perhaps he couldn't feel pain though.. he once jumped out of the ring and shredded his hind legs without so much as a flinch throughout healing and another time he ran broke through some fencing and dinged his elbow.. no sign of pain.. three weeks later, after no healing, the vet pulled out half of a double end snap.
Break Tan (http://www.pedigreequery.com/break+tan)

vineyridge
Mar. 14, 2008, 05:30 PM
What are those NP lines?

I'm not sure I agree that lots of Phalaris, in and of itself, means unsoundness. My mare's dam (in this pedigree http://www.pedigreequery.com/charm18 ) and the dam of two of my other horses, has a lot of Phalaris. She had 100 starts and retired clean legged and sound. TOUGH didn't even beging to describe Izzy. My mare was bred to run over fences...her doseage is off the charts for speed but my understanding is this also isn't an unusual approach for a dosage for a steeple chase horse. My mare is also extremely tough...so I while I don't disagree with what you are saying....I think it is hard to say that Phalaris is responsible for unsoundness issues.

Ribot, Damascus, Ack Ack, Man O'War (War Relic), Tourbillon, Hyperion, Blenheim II, and Herbager are a few that are still hanging on out there.

Isn't She Nice has VERY Little Phalaris. None in her sire line at all, and I can only find the two Nasrullahs and two others in the mare lines. She would definitely be an outcross for a Phalaris sire, and you'd get the benefits of hybrid vigor in the offspring. She's a lovely mix of old American, French, old NP UK and Phalaris lines. She's the sort of mare we need.

The Phalaris "Disease" as one writer has called it is not an issue of individual horses. It's a question of "genetic" soundness. When a hound pack doesn't get new blood from outside for many generations, the hounds become short lived and weedy. It's been shown many times with foxhound packs over time. The individual stud hounds and bitches may look fine, but over time the litters become less and less sturdy. More pups die in infancy and more and more pregnancies aren't carried to term. More and more of the bitches lose the "maternal instinct".

There is already a fertility problem in TBs, and overuse of a single sire line can't help contributing to the problem.

As to an individual horse, the Phalaris lines have huge benefits. It's when a stain leads to things like lack of bone with a heavy body or weak shock absorbers (pasterns and fetlocks) or bad angles leading to bad knees, or bad angles leading to hock and stifle problems and when that strain is so dominant in the breed that it's almost exclusive, it becomes time to outcross. Temperament is heritable, rideability is heritable, jumping talent is heritable, stamina is heritable, and conformation is certainly heritable. That is not to say that an individual horse won't take after some non-Phalaris ancestor, because it may. (Buckpasser was supposed to be almost a clone of Equipoise, sire of his second dam). But if it's got 18 Phalaris lines, there is a very good chance that it will tend toward reproducing both the good and bad of the Phalaris lines. And that too often means bad legs and lack of bone and, as in the case of Hail To Reasons, an iffy temperament.

Take a look at Two Davids pedigree and picture.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/two+davids
He's just retired from breeding, but his offspring ought to make good, stout sound and talented sport horses, even with mares filled with Phalaris lines.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 14, 2008, 05:31 PM
Bornfree,
I have one of the same type and had one back in the day. Can't break them. The one I have now has Nearco (Phalaris) running through every sire line of his grand-dams and -sires. Retired OTT at 8, xrays look like an unbroke unworked horse.
Righteous Struggle (http://www.pedigreequery.com/righteous+struggle)

The other I had back in the late 1990's and the horse literally never went lame. Vetted and xray'd 100%. Perhaps he couldn't feel pain though.. he once jumped out of the ring and shredded his hind legs without so much as a flinch throughout healing and another time he ran broke through some fencing and dinged his elbow.. no sign of pain.. three weeks later, after no healing, the vet pulled out half of a double end snap.
Break Tan (http://www.pedigreequery.com/break+tan)


Yeah...it might be more of the high pain tollerance. My mare (the one whose pedigree I posted) broke her withers getting cast in the stall....and was back ready to be ridden in 3 months....and looked really pretty good within a week of doing it. Some of them just have that toughness.

frugalannie
Mar. 14, 2008, 05:40 PM
Vineyridge, I may have mised it, but what does NP refer to?

Re: Master Spiritus: I have a mare descended from him. He sired several famous "Masters" who evented, such as Master Craftsman.

But these are my two current girls:

Golden Bangle www.pedigreequery.com/golden+bangle (http://www.pedigreequery.com/golden+bangle)
My horse dentist characterised her bloodlines as "bred to run all day, just not very fast". She is a terrific mover and effortless, brave jumper, but tends to be very tense.

Darcy Kino www.pedigreequery.com/darcykino (http://www.pedigreequery.com/darcykino)
Notable for having British and European bloodlines, but a tall, very sweet horse that has taken to Xc like a pro.

vineyridge
Mar. 14, 2008, 05:56 PM
NP equals a sire line that doesn't derive from Phalaris.

frugalannie
Mar. 14, 2008, 06:00 PM
Thank you, Vineyridge. I thought that was the case but not sure.

By the way, Evalee Hunter put together a list of all the TB sires represented in Rolex (and perhaps other Advanced) winners for several years. She may be coaxed to join this conversation...

vineyridge
Mar. 14, 2008, 07:21 PM
One line for eventers to look out for is Rialto. He's in the pedigrees of such horses as Biko twice--sire line and sire's dam line, and Custom Made (twice through Wild Risk).

Want to see a lovely pedigree for eventing. Take a look at Jam's. She got all the long lost lines in one beautiful package.

WNT
Mar. 14, 2008, 08:58 PM
My Prelim horse is by Alleged out of a Roberto mare (Roberto Babe), and if I ever find another one like him, I'll move heaven and earth to get it. You can't pull him off a jump, and he's wicked smart and athletic. I wish I'd found him when he was 5 or 6 instead of 11. I've since heard good things about both of those lines for sport TBs.

pinkdiamondracing
Mar. 14, 2008, 09:43 PM
Here's my freebie-- given to me, but was a $1million buy back at two-year old in training sale
http://www.pedigreequery.com/grand+survival
What do you think of this bloodline?? I've had him since August, but had no time to ride him until now, just waiting for the weather to get decent, and my arena to dry out so I can see what I have.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 14, 2008, 10:13 PM
Ribot, Damascus, Ack Ack, Man O'War (War Relic), Tourbillon, Hyperion, Blenheim II, and Herbager are a few that are still hanging on out there.

Isn't She Nice has VERY Little Phalaris. None in her sire line at all, and I can only find the two Nasrullahs and two others in the mare lines. She would definitely be an outcross for a Phalaris sire, and you'd get the benefits of hybrid vigor in the offspring. She's a lovely mix of old American, French, old NP UK and Phalaris lines. She's the sort of mare we need.

Take a look at Two Davids pedigree and picture.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/two+davids
He's just retired from breeding, but his offspring ought to make good, stout sound and talented sport horses, even with mares filled with Phalaris lines.

Thanks Vineyridge--I think I understand better. Isn't She nice is unfortunately gone now. I have two mares out of her...Charm (the one posted above) and another one by Aberjack http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/aberjoy

There is a third TB mare out of her that I found out about recently but not sure where she has ended up! http://www.pedigreequery.com/sherpa+charm Izzy did do well producing good sport types and was a very nice mare. I hope that her daughters continue to do well for me both with breeding and undersaddle!

frugalannie
Mar. 14, 2008, 11:16 PM
Yes, Bornfree. Sherpa Charm went very quickly. I'm sure to a good home that recognized her worth.

vineyridge
Mar. 14, 2008, 11:54 PM
My Prelim horse is by Alleged out of a Roberto mare (Roberto Babe), and if I ever find another one like him, I'll move heaven and earth to get it. You can't pull him off a jump, and he's wicked smart and athletic. I wish I'd found him when he was 5 or 6 instead of 11. I've since heard good things about both of those lines for sport TBs.

I was just doing some bloodlines research on the horses that ran at Cheltenham this week, and was surprised to find Alleged in several. Why surprised I don't know, because he's a lovely sport horse type and is completely lacking in the contemporary North American speed lines. Cheltenham is over jumps and doesn't run a race shorter than two miles, so you know you've already got the stamina side of the equation. Roberto is one of the few influences for stamina here, so that aspect is covered. Roberto's intact sons and grandsons are notorious for their evil dispositions (Kissing Kris, for example and Dynaformer and Silver Hawk), but his daughters are not. The jumping talent and athleticism that Hoist the Flag brings to Alleged might well come from his dam, Wavy Navy; while Roberto and his offspring, male and female, can go long or short, over fences or not. Roberto has four or five sons on the leading money winning jumps racing sires in the United States over the last twenty years and at least one that is standing in Ireland as an NH sire.

I would be careful about doubling up Roberto and Halo, just because of their temperaments, but they ARE very athletic.

vineyridge
Mar. 15, 2008, 12:04 AM
Here's my freebie-- given to me, but was a $1million buy back at two-year old in training sale
http://www.pedigreequery.com/grand+survival
What do you think of this bloodline?? I've had him since August, but had no time to ride him until now, just waiting for the weather to get decent, and my arena to dry out so I can see what I have.

It's a fancy racing pedigree, no doubt about that. And you certainly ought to know what sort of conformation will make good sporthorses. I'm assuming that his legs haven't been artificially straightened and that all his angles are good and that his body isn't too big for his legs, or you wouldn't have taken him.

But it's a perfect example of all the male lines in his pedigree converging from Phalaris. Even in the 5th generation there are only four NP lines. I'd guess that you MIGHT be in for a lifetime of mollycoddling his legs, although he could be incredibly sound with his particular conformation and gaits.

Question: if he's only just turned two and has raced already and won, why did his owners pull the plug and give him away? Or are you planning on running him?

Simkie
Mar. 15, 2008, 12:21 AM
Hey vineyridge...I'd love to hear your opinion of my mare: http://www.pedigreequery.com/blushing+maiden

She's quite nice, but not horribly sound :(

pinkdiamondracing
Mar. 15, 2008, 12:39 AM
It's a fancy racing pedigree, no doubt about that. And you certainly ought to know what sort of conformation will make good sporthorses. I'm assuming that his legs haven't been artificially straightened and that all his angles are good and that his body isn't too big for his legs, or you wouldn't have taken him.

But it's a perfect example of all the male lines in his pedigree converging from Phalaris. Even in the 5th generation there are only four NP lines. I'd guess that you MIGHT be in for a lifetime of mollycoddling his legs, although he could be incredibly sound with his particular conformation and gaits.

Question: if he's only just turned two and has raced already and won, why did his owners pull the plug and give him away? Or are you planning on running him?

No, he isn't two-- he just turned 5 this Jan 1-- he is big (16.2, 1300 lbs) with good bone and retired sound, his form went south when he was in Biancone the Butcher's barn, so he got mad at him and started using him as a breeze mate for his stakes horses and ruined his desire. We got him after that, and he just didn't want to run any more, so the owners didn't want to see him broke down running for $5000 somewhere for some podunk trainer and being abused, so they gave him away.
Did I mention he is gorgeous??

LarissaL
Mar. 15, 2008, 12:42 AM
I think Vineyridge is going to need to change their signature.. this thread is far from dead and we all keep begging for more info :D

vineyridge
Mar. 15, 2008, 01:24 AM
Ok - I'm amazed at the knowledge you have vineyridge. This is my guy that I bought as a three year old. He was just too slow for the track. He has a great brain (well, except when it's cold out). He loves to jump - get's his knees up and tight, he's a very pretty mover & he loves kids. He is definetly a pocket pony.
He's well balanced. I can't say he really uphill, but he's certainly not downhill. I'm really curious on your thoughts of his breeding.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/booming+fever

I LOVE Pleasant Tap and the Pleasant Colony lines for sporthorses. They tend to be tall, rather coarse, with very good bone and foot size. He's your guy's damsire, so he's in a very influential place in the pedigree. The tail female lines are very impressive too. Boom and Bust was bred to the most expensive stallions in North America, so she must have come from quite a female family to justify spending that kind of money on stud fees.

The top side is more huntery, I think. Seattle Slew could produce lovely foals or foals that could kindly be called conformationally challenged. When his descendants made it over to sporthorse land, they tended to be the nice ones that could have a successful second career. Stormin Fever looks to have typical Storm Cat/Northern Dancer conformation--big body and maybe smallish feet. He ran 26 races, which is pretty unusual for these days for a horse that is going to stud, so he must have spent more time sound than not.

vineyridge
Mar. 15, 2008, 01:29 AM
No, he isn't two-- he just turned 5 this Jan 1-- he is big (16.2, 1300 lbs) with good bone and retired sound, his form went south when he was in Biancone the Butcher's barn, so he got mad at him and started using him as a breeze mate for his stakes horses and ruined his desire. We got him after that, and he just didn't want to run any more, so the owners didn't want to see him broke down running for $5000 somewhere for some podunk trainer and being abused, so they gave him away.
Did I mention he is gorgeous??

Pictures, please!

vineyridge
Mar. 15, 2008, 01:43 AM
Hey vineyridge...I'd love to hear your opinion of my mare: http://www.pedigreequery.com/blushing+maiden

She's quite nice, but not horribly sound :(

Simkie, in your mare's case, I'd be willing to bet that she got run into the ground when she should have been getting time off. She has a lot of starts, and while she has lots of Phalaris, she doesn't have the ones that are infamous. She also has many NP lines to leaven the mix. Blushing Groom is good to find in any horse, but if there is a "weakness", it probably comes through the tail female line, where you have Native Dancer on top of a Nasrullah mare.

Love Uvira, though. She's a great mare to find in a pedigree, and tail female makes it even better. Can you say Missy Baba's dam?

I'll bet she has classic middle distance TB conformation. Not the sprinter look or the greyhound look, but in between. Just guessing.

vineyridge
Mar. 15, 2008, 02:18 AM
http://www.pedigreequery.com/charltons+amy

Comments on my mare?
She's got:
Nearco/Nasrullah
Mahmoud
Princequillo
Hyperion
Double Jay
Bold Ruler

Good-
Instrument Landing, Grey Dawn and Herbager.
I had never noticed before that Mumtaz Begum and Mahmoud were 3/4 siblings, so you have that going for you. You've got Beau Pere through some lines that aren't common in the US, so that's good. Misty Morn is a nice mare to find, and the Hyperion/Brulette mating brings some of the best French blood into the mix, along with a horse who has been called the foundation sire of UK Hunt Racing. Double Jay is a grand source of stamina and soundness, and one of his other descendants, NoDouble is definitely a stallion to look for in an eventing pedigree.
Questionable: Full brothers Independence and Bold Ruler rather close together in the pedigree. Breeding with full or 3/4 siblings usually has a very good chance of fixing attributes quickly, and I can't say that I would have done that breeding. On the other hand, Independence was a chaser with a huge number of starts and ran for eight years. So he might just be a better eventing sire than Bold Ruler and you lucked out. War Relic was the result of that kind of inbreeding, and there is nothing bad that can be said about him or his produce.

Your mare is the lovely greyhound type of TB that indicates good stamina. She doesn't look twenty at all.

Simkie
Mar. 15, 2008, 02:28 AM
Let's see if I have a recent shot of her...

This (http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/simkie/Horses/Blush.jpg) one is from last fall and ain't half bad, but she'd been out of work for some time. She has more butt and top line now. Here's (http://inlinethumb36.webshots.com/5027/1101990519048290005S600x600Q85.jpg) her CANTER pic. And I think this one (http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/41395/1214050410048290005S600x600Q85.jpg) is one of my favorites.

She had 3 starts at 2, 9 at 3, 10 at 4 and 5 at 5. She won most of her money and had all three of her wins at 3, on the turf. She is a (cheap) allowance winner.

When I bought her, I knew she had an ankle, and found out a couple years later that there was also a chip in a strange place--did not show on pre-purchase rads. Surgery reveled minor grooving in the cartilage and also two depo deposits in the joint. Both were debrided and one had some soft bone underneath. We did HA injections first to deal with the soreness she still had in the joint post-surgery and then IRAP. She also has seriously crappy feet.

Even with all those issues, I like this mare quite a bit and think she's the nicest horse I've ever had. She has her quirks, and is picky beyond compare about everything, but is kind and tries and is honest. This girl has never said "no." I really hope I can keep her sound enough to do something with her, because I think she'll be truly amazing. One of the good ones :)

Foxtrot's
Mar. 15, 2008, 02:29 AM
I'm sorry you dropped your mouse, Viney. This thread is so interesting and I would have love to know what caused all your mental energy -- and now it is gone. :(

We are lucky to have someone that can collect all this information and have such a mine of knowledge.

vineyridge
Mar. 15, 2008, 02:34 AM
What would you expect from this guy:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/synatitas+secret

He has really gorgeous movement. He's very friendly and has just been out at pasture for a couple years after he didn't run well. His owner has told me he has a great jump on him. What do you think sporthorse TB wise?

It's a fairly common pedigree for this day and age. The only thing that jumps out at me is Lady Winborn, and she's a very nice mare indeed. The conformation photo of Wild Again shows a horse with a very long back and a kind of odd loin connection.

But you're not going to be breeding this guy, and most TBs have the athleticism to be decent sporthorses. If his conformation is good, it sounds like you might have a find if his gaits are better than average and he has a good jump on him.

vineyridge
Mar. 15, 2008, 02:47 AM
Simkie, Duncan, my old man (24), has an almost identical race record. He is an allowance winner also, but round about the middle of his 4 year old year, he just quit running. He was raced as a 5yo, but lost by huge margins. He's got bad hocks, knees and feet now, but I love him dearly. Best field hunter one can imagine, and has the most comfortable canter/gallop you can have for hours in the saddle. Alas, because of the hocks, knees and feet, he's retired and very grumpy about it, too.

Simkie
Mar. 15, 2008, 02:57 AM
Vineyridge, what would you think about putting Blush to Coconut Grove? I must say, I've thought hard about it. I would be looking for an eventer...

vineyridge
Mar. 15, 2008, 04:13 AM
Golden Bangle www.pedigreequery.com/golden+bangle (http://www.pedigreequery.com/golden+bangle)
My horse dentist characterised her bloodlines as "bred to run all day, just not very fast". She is a terrific mover and effortless, brave jumper, but tends to be very tense.

Darcy Kino www.pedigreequery.com/darcykino (http://www.pedigreequery.com/darcykino)
Notable for having British and European bloodlines, but a tall, very sweet horse that has taken to Xc like a pro.

I have to agree with your horse dentist about Golden Bangle. She's got classic distance all over her. She also has more reines (24) than I think I have seen in a single mare--just not in her immediate family. Sister Margery's first foal was your girl's dam, and then she wasn't put to big name studs after that.

This one has a fine pedigree for flat racing, and her topside as a whole has produced more than its share of sport TBs. Maybe she has the temperament of a successful racer without the speed, and that's why she gets tense in competition.

Darcykino is obviously European. Her dosage CD is actually negative, and I don't think I've seen that in a living American TB. In fact her whole bottom side seems to be in negative dosage territory. That means she's actually bred to run longer than the classic American distance of 1 1/16 to 1 1/2 miles. I'm going to make a wild guess, after looking at her dam line and say she might have come from a line of NH mares. It seems to be the NH pattern to put a speed stallion on top of mares with low dosage numbers, and her mare line is definitely negative. I also have very often found Relko in eventing pedigrees, and Prince Chevalier has been identified as one of the five greatest chasing sires ever. So the bottom side could be why she takes to XC like a duck to water--that's what she's bred for.

Vaguely Noble was a very special horse and had almost perfect conformation. He was noted for producing offspring that were good at everything. In fact, I've seen comments that he was an almost perfect TB in every way. Bubbling Beauty made very nice babies, the best of which was Arctic Tern by Sea Bird. I've found a British article on sporthorses that points him out as one of the great sport sires of all time.

Sadler's Wells we don't need to discuss. He is the greatest living sire on this planet, and his offspring have done everything well.

I'm dreadfully envious that you could have two such nice mares.

CookiePony
Mar. 15, 2008, 07:09 AM
Vineyridge or anyone-- do you know anything about Caucasus? I have heard very little about him as a sire. He is my guy's ( http://www.pedigreequery.com/bankhisego ) dam sire.

Equine Obsession
Mar. 15, 2008, 07:38 AM
Vineyridge, I am thoroughly impressed by your wealth of knowledge. You should most certainly replace your signature with something more appropriate..

Something more like "Pedigree Analyzer Extraordinaire."

frugalannie
Mar. 15, 2008, 10:04 AM
Vineyridge, I am humbled by your comments and absolutely awed by your breadth of knowledge and your ability to express it so concisely and clearly.

Perhaps you should start a service analyzing pedigrees for sporthorses?

Thank you for letting me play!

frugalannie
Mar. 15, 2008, 10:14 AM
Besides thanking Vineyridge once again, that it amazes me how many of these horses with really wonderful pedigrees come out of CANTER and other low price sales.

As I've read through this thread, so many of us (me included) got our horses that way, that I thought we should note it.

chism
Mar. 15, 2008, 10:26 AM
I'd always heard these generalizations while working in FL's racing/breeding industry - some of these from racing folk pertaining to racing some from people who seek out H/J/Event prospects from track rejects...

Seattle Slews - good source for fancy, good movers & jumpers
Storm Cats - too much speed they don't mature enough physically to handle it so they break down quickly, I don't know what would happen if you didn't push a Storm Cat for 10 second time as a 2 yo.
Mr. Prospector - you have to be careful with the legs, he had poor front legs and passed them on
Caro - professional attitude, all class
Sovereign Dancer (and sons -- Dins Dancer, Louis Quatorze, etc) -- v. aggressive, bad attitudes, etc... I had one - he was an A$$. I got to know Dins Dancer's owner after aquiring said A$$hole -- she told me horror stories about Dins Dancer and his sire Sovereign Dancer.
Raise a Native - sound, quality using horses

I love TB breeding and bloodlines. I'm interested to hear any other generalizations. I wish I knew more about the dams. I know 2 mares who are out of the same dam, different sires - both have the same quiet, friendly, easy going personality.

I have a Louis Quatorze son out of a Phone Trick mare, JC name "Snake River". He's very trainable, sweet & personable, not even remotely aggressive. Of my four OTTB's, he's been the easiest & most laid back right off the track. I'm told however that he was pretty GRUMPY at the track, no one would even look at him. He must have been having an off day when I bought him. ;) He's more of a hunter type than an eventer, but has such a good mind I think he would excel at anything.
I also have a son of Dixie Brass, grandson of Sham on his dam's side. While he tends to have more "special moments" mentally, he's a very, very athletic little horse, very agile & catlike.
I would love to know if anyone has any experience with the " Gallant" horses, Star Gallant or My Gallant.

Erin Pittman
Mar. 15, 2008, 10:50 AM
Vineyridge - you are such a wealth of information! I recently sold a mare that was 1/2 Thoroughbred. She is by Capote's Promise (http://www.pedigreequery.com/capotes+promise) and is the most athletic brave animal you can find (and a fancy mover, to boot). What do you think of her sire's pedigree? She's being used for Eventing.

Several years ago, I was given a TB mare that had horrendous arthritis in her knees. She was a sweet mare and had been used for jumping for many years prior to me getting her. I ended up giving her away prior to a cross-country move because I didn't think it would be fair to her to ship her 1800 miles with sore knees. She died in 2004. I look at her pedigree and don't see anything I recognize (or know much about) up close - how about you? http://www.pedigreequery.com/bon+reve

eSpresso
Mar. 15, 2008, 11:00 AM
Good-

Your mare is the lovely greyhound type of TB that indicates good stamina. She doesn't look twenty at all.

Thanks for that awesome reply. That picture was taken when she was maybe 14.

My trainer wishes she was younger, so we could breed her. She had 1 foal when she was about 6 I think, and that was a long time ago...

thanks again. You're super:D

DLee
Mar. 15, 2008, 11:44 AM
Easier to find that I like is Turn To, In Reality, and Majestic Light. There are many others as well....but of course it depends on the individual horse.

I have a gelding, grandson of Majestic Light that I am bringing along to sell, I'm tickled to hear that! He is definitely an athlete and amazingly quiet, which is MY favorite attribute!
http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=horse&search_bar=horse&h=FIFTY+THREE+CARDS&g=5&p=0&f=1&l=

And here is my lovely Dannyboy http://www.pedigreequery.com/millstadt+express , if only he didn't have such a bad club foot, I just can't bring myself to jump him on that. :(

Vineyridge, I would love any thoughts!

Trying
Mar. 15, 2008, 01:39 PM
My little stallion is by Never Down Hill out of Fast Recording and his half sister is a granddaughter of Seattle Slew. She has a 2yo son(gelding) by Boy Done Good(AKA salute the Truth). They say eventing all over but I am stuckin old age with just dresssage.

Granada
Mar. 15, 2008, 02:38 PM
vineyridge, thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge, I am learning so much reading this thread!

I was wondering about this quote:
On the other hand, Independence was a chaser with a huge number of starts and ran for eight years. So he might just be a better eventing sire than Bold Ruler and you lucked out.

I know people don't seek out Bold Ruler in sport pedigree's anymore, but is this because of his phalaris line, or other reasons, lameness etc.? Mine has Bold Ruler 3x4, but you won't hurt my feelings LOL I'll still love him and his jump;)

Here's his pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/bold+words2 I posted it earlier, but no one commented... which probably means he doesn't have much interesting for sport.

Really, I'm interested in ideas about Bold Ruler in a ped. Thanks to everyone who has commented on this thread, I love reading about each horse and seeing their pics!

vineyridge
Mar. 15, 2008, 03:29 PM
Bold Ruler lines tend to be absolutely beautiful and very much sought after in the hunter world. What they are not is tough; the bad buzz on his lines is that they tend to early arthritis and are high maintenance from the age of about eight on. This is purely his reputation, you understand, and there will always be exceptions. One or two lines of Bold Ruler way back in the pedigree can be often be offset by many lines that are tough. Bold Rulers also have a reputation for being "original thinkers"; as I've described my guy here, and the thought has been seconded, "submission is not in his vocabulary." You have to persuade him that it's his idea to do something; not demand it of him. They are very much fun horses to own and ride, just because of their personalities; they really keep their riders on their toes. You will not find a BR deadhead. And they will keep going even when they are riddled with arthritis, because they are so mentally tough. Your relationship with a close up BR line horse will truly have to be a partnership. They demand nothing less.

Close up inbreeding/linebreeding to BR, where the tendency to early DJD can be multiplied, just leads to a better chance that a particular horse will be very high maintenance for a longer part of its life. BR is also best known for throwing horses with high dosage ratings, which means that the sires in that line pass on a tendency to run fast for short distances.

About the CANTER horses--the reasons so many of useful ones for sport end up on CANTER, I believe, is because a) they are bred for distances that they are not running (not dirt track, sprint bred), b) they have already shown signs of breaking down either physically or mentally from racing stress, but are fine off the track (sorry, Fairweather), c) in the case of the mares, they don't have the kind of modern type racing pedigree that would make them attractive as broodmares for the racing industry, or d) they have a mixture of old and new bloodlines that just didn't work out for racing. And, :), Almost any sound TB will make a very adequate sport horse for most amateur, low level riders, especially event riders who love being on the Ferraris of the horse world.

BTW, what jumped out at me in your horse's pedigree for eventing was the tail female line from Crepita. Crepello is still very much alive in jumps racing breeding, as is Charlottesville. Whenever you find lines that are still used in Europe in jumps racing, you know you probably have the distance/stamina factor taken care of.

What would put me off is not just the BR, but the inbreeding to Polynesian through Alanasian and Native Dancer along WITH the lines to BR. It would almost scream high maintenance to me.

dblitz
Mar. 15, 2008, 03:45 PM
Devil his Due is suppose to be a really good sport stud. People seek him out, if your boy looks like him... fancy fancy fancy! :D

Just acquired this mare by Devil His Due for whom we have great hopes as a riding horse and a producer. She is lovely, just off the track photo included with her pedigree

http://www.pedigreequery.com/psychodrama

ss3777
Mar. 15, 2008, 03:58 PM
WOW psychodrama is stunning.....................good luck with her

Foxtrot's
Mar. 15, 2008, 04:28 PM
I had a horse by Atomikin via Bold Ruler and he was not sound,
neither were a lot of his get. He was a big boned, big footed l7.1 hh, black bay and out of a Maryland timber racing mare, Leeds Dawn/Leeds Fran. Great show jumper, magnificent field hunter, not gutsy enough for x-country eventing.

Granada
Mar. 15, 2008, 04:30 PM
Vineyridge, thank you for explaining BR to me! You describe my horse to a T. He does have arthritis issues and has his hocks injected now and legend. He probably should have started injections a few years ago, but I was hesitant to start the process too early. And for him it almost seems like soundness is a state of mind. Once he was warmed up and going it was like he forgot all about his hocks and put out his all. But he has been happy w/ the injections so far.

I don't know what I'm going to do when he needs to be retired. He basically goes mentally nutty if he isn't worked and ridden regularly. But when in work he is not a flighty/ spooky horse in the least, and he is very mentally focused and a good listener as long as it is athletically challenging and is what he wants to be working on.. even in dressage as long as I keep him busy and working he tries his heart out. If it's not what he wants to be working on... then I have to find ways to coax him into it b/c there is no telling him what to do:lol:


BTW, what jumped out at me in your horse's pedigree for eventing was the tail female line from Crepita. Crepello is still very much alive in jumps racing breeding, as is Charlottesville. This has always been my favorite part of my horse's pedigree just from looking at the pics of Crepello and Charlottesville on pedquery:D It is great to hear their lines are still alive. Thank you for sharing!

imapepper
Mar. 15, 2008, 07:44 PM
This has turned into a pretty cool thread. And pretty education looking at all these pedigrees.

Vineyridge, what do you think of this mares pedigree? I am curious about your thoughts on her dam line.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/blazing+k+jet

CookiePony
Mar. 15, 2008, 08:06 PM
Bold Ruler lines tend to be absolutely beautiful and very much sought after in the hunter world. What they are not is tough; the bad buzz on his lines is that they tend to early arthritis and are high maintenance from the age of about eight on. This is purely his reputation, you understand, and there will always be exceptions. One or two lines of Bold Ruler way back in the pedigree can be often be offset by many lines that are tough. Bold Rulers also have a reputation for being "original thinkers"; as I've described my guy here, and the thought has been seconded, "submission is not in his vocabulary." You have to persuade him that it's his idea to do something; not demand it of him. They are very much fun horses to own and ride, just because of their personalities; they really keep their riders on their toes. You will not find a BR deadhead. And they will keep going even when they are riddled with arthritis, because they are so mentally tough. Your relationship with a close up BR line horse will truly have to be a partnership. They demand nothing less.


Wow-- this sounds very much like my horse's temperament!

I posted above somewhere but it's now buried: does anyone know anything about Caucasus (Nijinsky-Quill-Princequillo) as a stud?

Lamma70
Mar. 15, 2008, 09:16 PM
Vineyridge,
It looks like you have been very busy and very helpful in deciphering TB lineage. I have been wondering about my guys dam line. He is a TB/Hanoverian cross, and his Dam's great grandsire is Swaps. I haven't seen a lot of mention of Swaps. Is there anything that he brings to the lineage? Here is her pedigree....

http://www.pedigreequery.com/amies+image

Then, my sister has a Canter mare that she is using for breeding, and her first foal is now a yearling. She has Bold Ruler and Turn-to back in her 5th Generation, and her sire is West by West. She did race, and now can only be lightly ridden due to some kind of small fracture in her cannon bone??? Perhaps that weakness comes from her Mr. Prospector line??

http://www.pedigreequery.com/tomas+playmate

I would love to hear what you think. Thank you.

madetoride
Mar. 15, 2008, 09:24 PM
My guy is a hunter and was just wondering if he has a good pedigree

http://www.pedigreequery.com/ocho+negro

or if anyone knows any typical traits his sire or dam may have.

LAZ
Mar. 15, 2008, 10:22 PM
I would love to know if anyone has any experience with the " Gallant" horses, Star Gallant or My Gallant.


I had one named My Gallant Bet by My Gallant out of Betty Marsh. He was a brown horse (with brown eyes, no less). He was a really, really fancy mover and had a nice jump but wasn't brave on x/c. I sold him to a dressage rider and he cleaned up at the big shows in the midwest until an untimely death by flipping himself over in cross ties and hitting his head. After I sold him (it was in 92 or 93) he was shown as Celebration. He truly was a beautiful horse and beautiful mover, and was smart and had too much self preservation to be a good event horse.

LAZ
Mar. 15, 2008, 10:42 PM
Who would of known? Have a bunch of horses with Caro in the pedigree. This guy was sold for $400 and not a thing wrong with him. Just didn't want to race. I think we measured him at 17.2 or 17.3. He was 3 at the time. I was really upset when I found out, because I had tried to take him before that and he wasn't for sale.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/unbridled+illini

Hey--I resent that remark, I paid a whopping $600 for him! :cool: And I will say I took it on the fly as even though I'd been looking for him (and Unbridled Damascus--another horse by the same sire) I didn't see them until just before they went in the auction ring. After I bought him I stood next to him on the asphalt and thought "dang, I hope you're done growing!"....

He's doing well and will get out at some point this year--I've had an injury plagued year for me and my yearling colt so money is tight.

firstimpressioncounts
Mar. 15, 2008, 11:15 PM
Bold Ruler lines tend to be absolutely beautiful and very much sought after in the hunter world. What they are not is tough; the bad buzz on his lines is that they tend to early arthritis and are high maintenance from the age of about eight on. This is purely his reputation, you understand, and there will always be exceptions. One or two lines of Bold Ruler way back in the pedigree can be often be offset by many lines that are tough. Bold Rulers also have a reputation for being "original thinkers"; as I've described my guy here, and the thought has been seconded, "submission is not in his vocabulary." You have to persuade him that it's his idea to do something; not demand it of him. They are very much fun horses to own and ride, just because of their personalities; they really keep their riders on their toes. You will not find a BR deadhead. And they will keep going even when they are riddled with arthritis, because they are so mentally tough. Your relationship with a close up BR line horse will truly have to be a partnership. They demand nothing less.


WOW- you just described my guy to a 'T' (http://www.pedigreequery.com/gustoruckus)

(BTW- if you can- feel free to analyze his pedigree- I'd love to know more about it... )

FIC

vineyridge
Mar. 15, 2008, 11:19 PM
You know, if y'all are interested in doing your own TB research, there are a huge number of places on the internet with reliable information.

I'd start with TB Heritage-- http://www.tbheritage.com It covers all things TB, including jumping and jumps racing. It's a great resource with biographies of many of the horses who are famous and have founded lines that live on.
Then there is Bloodlines.net, which goes WAY back and doesn't come very far forward.
http://www.bloodlines.net/

For current UK racing and the histories and winner of races there is Napit.
It has hurdles and chases separately, so you can find the winners and look them up.
http://www.napit.co.uk/

For French racing, including jumps racing, the French version of the JC has a very good site. It's not easy to navigate, but it's a good source. And it's in English.
http://www3.france-galop.com/index.php?id=103&L=1

For American steeplechasing, there are the Chronicle and two sites:
http://www.st-publishing.com/cms/
and
http://www.nationalsteeplechase.com/

For horse pedigrees, TB sales catalogs are extremely useful. For our purposes, the Goff and Tattersall's National Hunt sales produce great information, and those catalogs are archived on line.
http://www.goffs.com/
http://www.tattersalls.ie/news/index.html

French sales house:
http://www.arqana.com/_pur_sangs_/
It'll make you practice your French.

Then there are some databases, a couple Dutch and at least one English that are useful.
http://www.equestrian-database.com/serve/frontpage They have pedigrees and riders and horses for all disciplines.
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/index.php This one doesn't isn't in English yet, but I have hopes. In the meantime, you can still get horses. And try and muddle your way through some Dutch.
Here's one in English:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/index.htm

For just plain TB research without a sport horse aspect, an alternative to Pedigree Query is TesioPower. It has six generations, siblings, hypomatings and several other features that pedigreequery charges for.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/index.htm

For another fascinating site try PedigreePost.
http://www.pedigreepost.net

The Argentine Jockey Club has its information online and I seem to recall it's free. Come to think of it, the New Zealand and Australian JC's have a huge amount of their information on line that used to be free. Naturally you have to pay for everything at the US Jockey Club, However, if you open a free account with Brisnet, some of their information is free. And you can find most sires and dams on the Breeder's Cup nominations site here: https://nominations.breederscup.com/bcFoalVerificationForm.cfm
Weatherby's does the same thing for free for UK and Irish TBs.
http://www.weatherbys.net/eol/

And then there is the Racing Post, which is an incredible resource.
http://www.racingpost.co.uk/news/splash.sd

Also The Horse Magazine is wonderful.
http://www.horsemagazine.com
And the British Sport Horse Society has lots of information online. Point to Pointing is a whole specialist form of racing in the UK, but I haven't managed to find a site that has stats and pedigrees on that.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. :D

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 15, 2008, 11:32 PM
Hey--I resent that remark, I paid a whopping $600 for him! :cool: And I will say I took it on the fly as even though I'd been looking for him (and Unbridled Damascus--another horse by the same sire) I didn't see them until just before they went in the auction ring. After I bought him I stood next to him on the asphalt and thought "dang, I hope you're done growing!"....

He's doing well and will get out at some point this year--I've had an injury plagued year for me and my yearling colt so money is tight.


Congrats...he is a very good looking horse. He might be done growing. My turning 4 year old hasn't gone up too much more since last year....of course I've had others add another couple of inches between their third and fifth years;)

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 15, 2008, 11:45 PM
Wow! Great list Vineyridge! Very useful. Thank you! While I'm not going to breed my mares for racing (and most wouldn't be interesting in them since they do not have the "popular" lines nor any track record themselves)....I do want to breed with a lot of TB blood. Nice to have some help in knowing what to look for at least from the pedigree standpoint.

madetoride
Mar. 16, 2008, 12:02 AM
vineyridge: excellent list of resources...but what I am looking for is info on the personalities and soundness of Saint Ballado and relaunch lines. My guy has a distinct personality and was wondering if it was the sire or dam line.

My guys race name was ocho negro

vineyridge
Mar. 16, 2008, 12:14 AM
WOW- you just described my guy to a 'T' (http://www.pedigreequery.com/gustoruckus)

(BTW- if you can- feel free to analyze his pedigree- I'd love to know more about it... )

FIC

Your horse is absolutely amazing in one aspect. You've got horses like Blue Larkspur (1926) and Mahmoud (1933) in the 4th generation, while for most horses they are literally so far back they are off the page. It's almost unbelievable. He must have been the youngest son of the youngest son of the youngest daughter. I can't believe that there is actually a living and competing great great grandson of Blue Larkspur out there in sport horse land.

Let me pick my jaw back up, and I'll get back to you.

Granada
Mar. 16, 2008, 12:28 AM
WOW- you just described my guy to a 'T' (http://www.pedigreequery.com/gustoruckus)

(BTW- if you can- feel free to analyze his pedigree- I'd love to know more about it... )

FIC

Firstimpression, I'm not to good at ped analysis, mostly I just recognize names LOL. But my guy has Bold Ruckus too, and a dressage judge at Gallway told my mom that she really liked Bold Ruckus, so people know of him:D I'd love to know more about your horse's dam line.

Mine is 3x4 BR too, and he is just like vineyridge described it. I've never had this issue with another horse, but mine takes advantage of anyone else that rides him, truely he is just terrible for new people. I think it's that you have to earn his respect, and also that he demands a constantly thinking and communicating rider.. there's no autopilot except maybe at the gallop:winkgrin: I've never had another horse with such a distinctive competitive/quarky personallity.

Do you have a pic of GustoRuckus?

dblitz
Mar. 16, 2008, 12:38 AM
Wow, to the Blue Larkspur and Mahmoud in the 4th gen!! I thought we were lucky to get Blue Larkspur in the 5th gen.

I love this thread.

vineyridge
Mar. 16, 2008, 12:52 AM
vineyridge: excellent list of resources...but what I am looking for is info on the personalities and soundness of Saint Ballado and relaunch lines. My guy has a distinct personality and was wondering if it was the sire or dam line.

My guys race name was ocho negro

Let me put it this way. Saint Ballardo is supposed to have been a kind horse for a stallion and not hard to work with. Halo, however, was evil, dangerous and pure poison, and he passed that on to lots of his get. I think that at this point there are not so many Saint Ballardo offspring that have made it over to the sporthorse ranks, so we don't have much of a base to judge the whole set by.

I have to think about Relaunch. Off the top of my head, I seem to recall his get having the reputation for being businesslike, no frills and not cuddly. Not grumpy either, and not difficult.

LAZ
Mar. 16, 2008, 01:14 AM
I've got a couple with some interesting bloodlines:

My colt, Rising Prices http://www.pedigreequery.com/rising+prices2

I own the mare (Bug Eyed) and picked Texas Fuel because he was very like my mare, phenotype-wise, had very neat bloodlines that you don't see up close anymore, and he had sired really good-minded, good jumping horses. This colt is good looking, correct, good minded and loads of chrome. What I end up doing with him is up in the air as he is currently at the vet hospital recovering from hind leg surgery due to a puncture wound that went really south, really fast. the mare is being put back to the ISH Jumbo this year.

I also own the afore mentioned Unbridled Illini, who I went hunting for at the Fairmount Paddock sale based on his pedigree.

I also own Elijah M, who I bought also at Fairmount Park: http://www.pedigreequery.com/elijah+m
A friend of mine sent me his picture and I found his pedigree very interesting for a sport horse prospect. If he were a bigger horse to ride (he's 15.3, but rather slab sided and I'm 6' tall) I'd keep him. He's got a really cute jump on him and a very good work ethic. He also has a really cute expression and is always very curious and interested in life.

I bought Speedy http://www.pedigreequery.com/rapid+cat
at the end of the meet sale at Hoosier Park in November. He's a type I really, really like--tall, short backed, long legged and elegant, but he wasn't selling due to an old condylar fracture. I thought he was worth $300, so I bought him. As it turns out, his xrays are pretty ugly, so it wasn't a smart sport horse buy, but he is a good sort and gets along well with others so he'll do well as a baby sitter for the kids. I didn't know his pedigree before I said "heck I'll give you $300 for him", but I like the Key to the Mint, Sir Ivor, Dr. Fager, Rough N' Tumble and Storm Cat.

I've loved the Majestic Light horses I've had, they've all been pretty to look at, hard trying, and athletic horses. We lost the best one in the barn a few months ago to freak pasture injury:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/lord+alfred

Obie (Tumble Dry) is 20 now and still as handsome as he was when I bought him as a 4 year old: http://www.pedigreequery.com/tumble+dry
He's run around every major 3 day in the eastern half of the country and ran Rolex at 18.

I am such a Tb pedigree geek....

LAZ
Mar. 16, 2008, 01:21 AM
OK, I forgot another one of my favorites (this one came from Thistledown)

Mr. Sun
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+sun

He is 16.3, big boned, good-footed, gorgeous, round, jump and really, really good work ethic. He tends to be a snatchy in his movement if he's felling pressed, but when he relaxes he will be able to win the dressage. We picked him up in August (I think, it may have been September) and I expect good things from him.

vineyridge
Mar. 16, 2008, 01:31 AM
I was just reading Avalyn Hunter's article on Soundness in the Thoroughbred which is in the PedigreePost archives. She is a pedigree analyst and has written several books on the modern day TB. One on Northern Dancer and his lines, one on Mr. P and his lines, and one called "Classic American Pedigrees".

She says in the article that Storm Cat himself was unsound, has bad knees, and passes them on to many of his offspring. Mr. P had offset knees and small feet, while the Phalaris lines brought heavy bodies without the legs to support them.

As a matter of principle, I would be very wary of Storm Cats.

dblitz
Mar. 16, 2008, 01:36 AM
Okay Vineyridge, my mare is P/P going way back according to what I have learned from this thread. What would you outcross her to? For sport horse purposes.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/psychodrama

vineyridge
Mar. 16, 2008, 01:41 AM
OK, I forgot another one of my favorites (this one came from Thistledown)

Mr. Sun
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+sun

He is 16.3, big boned, good-footed, gorgeous, round, jump and really, really good work ethic. He tends to be a snatchy in his movement if he's felling pressed, but when he relaxes he will be able to win the dressage. We picked him up in August (I think, it may have been September) and I expect good things from him.

I'm not so fond of the topside, but the bottom side is spectacular.

And Elijah M has everything it takes to be a wonderful find.

Dang, you have a good eye for pedigrees. All of the ones you posted are impressive.

vineyridge
Mar. 16, 2008, 01:53 AM
Okay Vineyridge, my mare is P/P going way back according to what I have learned from this thread. What would you outcross her to? For sport horse purposes.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/psychodrama

Are we talking TB's here? There's a small problem in that a lot of people, including Ellen Parker, don't think Graustark was the son of Ribot, but was instead the son of Swaps. Most people don't, however. If you are anywhere near Illinois, Roanoke (Pleasant Colony/Ribot) is standing there. He'd be a nice double of the Ribot that you already have on the bottom. A lot will depend, of course, on your location. There are some wonderful old lines in old stallions hiding out in odd places, and they aren't expensive.

Where are you--or rather where is the mare?

The easiest outcross to find will either be a Ribot line or a Man O'War line.

dblitz
Mar. 16, 2008, 02:00 AM
Yes I was talking TBs to out cross, thinking about the pedigree and where one could go with it. I know I can and may cross with a WB but I think she could produce a nice TB for sport as well. I am in IL but she is in VA.

I had not heard the bit about Graustark, interesting.

I also wish I were 25 years younger, with the experience I have now.

vineyridge
Mar. 16, 2008, 02:08 AM
Yes I was talking TBs to out cross, thinking about the pedigree and where one could go with it. I know I can and may cross with a WB but I think she could produce a nice TB for sport as well. I am in IL but she is in VA.

I had not heard the bit about Graustark, interesting.

I also wish I were 25 years younger, with the experience I have now.

If you are going to breed her NOW take a look at Rock Point at Va Tech.

Lamma70
Mar. 16, 2008, 02:38 AM
Wow, to the Blue Larkspur and Mahmoud in the 4th gen!! I thought we were lucky to get Blue Larkspur in the 5th gen.

I love this thread.

My horses dam has Blue Larkspur and Mahmoud in her 5th generation. So, is that a good thing? I guess that would then make it his 6th generation.....hmmm...guess that isn't such a big deal then. :)

http://www.pedigreequery.com/amies+image

My sister's mare has Cox's Ridge in her bloodline, and we've been told that is a good thing. Does anyone know anything about that line?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/tomas+playmate

I have been trying to research it all using the links you sent Vineyridge, but just can't find what I am looking for. I was just looking for common traits in certain stallions, etc. Is there a specific site to go to that explains it?

Lamma70
Mar. 16, 2008, 02:52 AM
Hey,
I just found this Web site that contains a list of TB's that are sought after in sporthorse bloodlines. It also talks about traits, etc., and what the lines are commonly used for....but nothing about Swaps yet.....

http://www.meadowviewfarm.com/TBSHbloodlines.htm#H

vineyridge
Mar. 16, 2008, 02:56 AM
It's more a process of picking up little bits of information from a lot of different places. For instance, in the article I talked about above, the author has a comment on how Hildene passed on to her descendants stoutness, good bone, and sturdiness. (Hildene is probably the only blind mare ever to be selected Broodmare of the Year, but it wasn't genetic blindness.)

In many of the books and articles about racers, there will be descriptions of a horse's temperament and personality. The portraits on TB Heritage will sometimes, but not always, talk about particulars and whether the offspring inherited them.

If you remember in Seabiscuit, the author made a huge point of how nasty Hastings was and how he passed that on to many of his descendants. Then there are the interviews with the folks who had to work with various horses, and those can be found in places like The Blood Horse and the TB Times. And you talk to people who have had horses with certain lines and try and put it all together.

I seem to have a very funny brain with good memory banks and the ability to synthesize from lots of different information sources.

vineyridge
Mar. 16, 2008, 03:15 AM
Hey,
I just found this Web site that contains a list of TB's that are sought after in sporthorse bloodlines. It also talks about traits, etc., and what the lines are commonly used for....but nothing about Swaps yet.....

http://www.meadowviewfarm.com/TBSHbloodlines.htm#H

That website was a co-operative creation of TB lovers over on the COTH Breeding Forum. Meadowview farms, bless her heart, put it together so beautifully and gave it a home on the web.

Swaps was a damn fine racehorse, but he didn't produce many like himself. So he is comparatively rare these days. He is Hyperion sire line and his dam line is Son-In-Law and War Admiral. Given that Son-In-Law is one of the foundation lines for German Warmbloods, that the Man O'War lines could all run and jump, even to the GP level of show jumping, and that Hyperion was an all round sire of every sort of horse endeavor, Swaps probably would have made a damn fine sport horse sire, as opposed to a racing sire. He wasn't a pre-potent sire, so he's kind of gotten lost.

As to his temperament, I'm not sure why I seem to remember that he had the reputation of being a gentleman.
http://www.secondrunning.com/Swaps.htm

When you are researching a particular horse, go to Google and put in the name (if it's two words or more, put parentheses around the name) plus thoroughbred. You'd be surprised what you can find.

2boys
Mar. 16, 2008, 09:29 AM
What does it mean when they say,"when linebred"?

grayarabpony
Mar. 16, 2008, 11:09 AM
I was reading the latest issue of COTH and just found out that Hollywood has the same sire as my OTTB mare -- Mighty Adversary.

Drvmb1ggl3
Mar. 16, 2008, 11:35 AM
Point to Pointing is a whole specialist form of racing in the UK, but I haven't managed to find a site that has stats and pedigrees on that.



For Irish point to pointing, which is where most of the great ones start anyway (12 of the last 15 Gold Cup winners started out in the Irish P2P field) there is www.p2p.ie ...
There is also www.irishracing.com which includes P2P results with results under rules for a horses record, for example (http://www.irish-racing.com/v3horseinfo?prv=4&prt=239845).

Lamma70
Mar. 16, 2008, 12:15 PM
Thanks for the info Vineyridge. You are an awesome wealth of information!

DLee
Mar. 16, 2008, 12:50 PM
Hmm... maybe I'm NOT selling my Majestic Light guy... :winkgrin:

CallMeGrace
Mar. 16, 2008, 01:50 PM
Vineyridge, you have a PM!

Granada
Mar. 16, 2008, 02:42 PM
What does it mean when they say,"when linebred"?

Linebred is basically another term for inbred, but when someone says a horse is linebred to an ancestor, it means that the ancestor is found more than once in the third or higher generation, usually through different progeny though it depends on the ancestor you are focussing on.

The term inbred is saved for closer generations and is usually frowned upon.

I looked at other horses I have known to keep from using my own horse as an example again, but I couldn't find any great examples in them. So here it goes: http://www.pedigreequery.com/bold+words2

He's line bred to Bold Ruler 3Sx4D (which is called a cross duplicate since it is on his dam and sire line) but he also has Nearco through other lines besides Bold Ruler, so if we were talking about Nearco, we could say he is line bred to Nearco 5Sx4Dx6Dx7dx7d. If we found my horse in a pedigree we would just say he is line bred to Bold Ruler, esp b/c the only Nearco on sire side is through Bold Ruler. Also, you can see that his Sire Bold Ruckus was linebred to Polynesian 3Sx4D. You wouldn't say my horse was line bred to Polynesian since his 4Sx5S isn't a cross duplicate, you'd say his sire line is line bred to polynesian.

Hope this makes sense, and I also hope it is correct LOL.

grayarabpony
Mar. 16, 2008, 03:54 PM
I'm surprised Swaps didn't make a good damline sire, like Secretariat, since no doubt he had the large heart gene too and passed it on to his daughters.

vineyridge
Mar. 16, 2008, 04:14 PM
I'm surprised Swaps didn't make a good damline sire, like Secretariat, since no doubt he had the large heart gene too and passed it on to his daughters.

When you do find him, it's likely to be through his daughters. :lol:

Foxtrot's
Mar. 16, 2008, 05:10 PM
Question: Who did Swaps have the match race with? - drawing a blank here.

grayarabpony
Mar. 16, 2008, 05:26 PM
Nashua.

It's a shame someone didn't buy up Swap and Seabiscuit daughters for sporthorse breeding, although of course no one knew about the X factor back then. I always thought it was a shame that Seabiscuit wasn't used for a sportshorse sire when he didn't prove to be a good racehorse sire.

vineyridge
Mar. 16, 2008, 05:55 PM
Anyone here get the Chronicle? I just got my March 7th issue, and they have pictures and results of the Casanova Point to Point. COTH publisher Robert Banner has a horse named Floor Play who won the novice 3 mile timber. In the photo, he has the most perfect jumping form! Looks like a show jumper, the way he's folded. Floor Play is Northern Baby out of a Bold Forbes mare.

I knew Northern Baby is the best American sire for jumps racers, sire and damsire, but the Bold Forbes certainly added form to speed.

Foxtrot's
Mar. 16, 2008, 06:47 PM
Interesting about Seabiscuit comment: I don't have an opinion on the Seabiscuit offspring for sporthorses, but my mare has two mares in her pedigree: Sea Garden and Sea Angel and no War Admiral. For sentimental reasons I like that. I don't think he went to any really good mares, and he was not a huge beauty himself.

grayarabpony
Mar. 16, 2008, 08:16 PM
No, but he actually wasn't that homely either. At the time Laura Hillenbrand's book came out PBS had a special on Seabiscuit with live footage of Seabiscuit, including the match race with War Admiral! I thought Seabiscuit was handsome, truth be told (could have used a tail extension maybe :lol:), and he had great presence. And he really POSED for the cameras. It was hilarious.

My favorite book on Seabiscuit was not Laura Hillenbrand's but Ralph Moody's little book.

War Admiral had the large heart gene too but got it from his mother. Man o' War had the good fortune to be bred to mares who carried this gene. I have no doubt Man o' War also had it himself but could only pass it on to his daughters.

firstimpressioncounts
Mar. 16, 2008, 10:19 PM
Your horse is absolutely amazing in one aspect. You've got horses like Blue Larkspur (1926) and Mahmoud (1933) in the 4th generation, while for most horses they are literally so far back they are off the page. It's almost unbelievable. He must have been the youngest son of the youngest son of the youngest daughter. I can't believe that there is actually a living and competing great great grandson of Blue Larkspur out there in sport horse land.

Let me pick my jaw back up, and I'll get back to you.

Huh- who knew! I did start reasearching his bloodlines but got fustrated half way through... but now, I realized that I just wasn't doing it properly, however, I noticed that you posted a bunch of links so will do some more reading and research... its purely for my own interest, I love finding these things out! :)

We do mostly dressage but I have been having a desire to turn him to eventing... For fun anyways. We haven't made it to a dressage show yet but this summer we will be attending our first shows together. It will only be two years this July that I have had him. Last summer- lots of other things came up but this summer I am determined to get him shown! :D

Thanks for taking a look! :yes:

Granada- I don't know a whole lot about his dam's line but my vet apparently met/knows Bold Ruckus... He said he really likes the Bold Ruckus bloodlines. Another person on a forum (can't remember which one)- said Bold Ruckus tends to pass on good jumping abilities... I do know that Bunty Lawless is in the Canadian Racing Hall of Fame (Bold Ruckus is in there as well) In 1969 -- Jumpin Joseph won the Queen's Plate Race. (that I was able to find online! :lol: )

As requested here are some pics of Gustoruckus:
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n300/LisaL_photo/100_4071.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n300/LisaL_photo/100_3491.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n300/LisaL_photo/IMG_2030.jpg

And for racing- his last win at Fort Erie
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n300/LisaL_photo/TyRace.jpg

ss3777
Mar. 16, 2008, 10:31 PM
This thread is so educational.

My guy:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/flagstone+blue

Also has Blue Larkspur in the fourth generation but look how old his mom and dad were when they had him!!

I hope that bodes well for my guy, of course I think he is a star!!

dblitz
Mar. 16, 2008, 10:46 PM
That pedigree sure looks good for sport to me! Blue Larkspur and Buckpasser in the 4th, Blue Larkspur being special there.

Thanks to Vineyridge for the education!! The stallion at VT looks very interesting!

vineyridge
Mar. 16, 2008, 10:48 PM
For some more Seabiscuit information, you can go to:
http://www.secondrunning.com
and watch the video of the match race with War Admiral. :D

spirithorse22
Mar. 16, 2008, 10:59 PM
Any comments on this pedigree?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/tricky+taboo


:)

Hey, here's my Tricky guy: http://www.pedigreequery.com/tricky+crossing

I'll be interested to see pics of your guy...I'll PM you later if you don't see this thread and post back.

Foxtrot's
Mar. 16, 2008, 11:05 PM
We are so easily pleased - my girlfriend and I sometimes spend an evening with a bottle of wine exploring such sites on the computer, youtube, etc. Simple pleasures, pathetic.

Foxtrot's
Mar. 16, 2008, 11:07 PM
How far does one go back to count green stars? Never heard of counting them before. They go back to the early l900's, so quite a ways. Even so, are the relevant to the discussion of sporthorse sires?

vineyridge
Mar. 17, 2008, 12:12 AM
They are the equivalent of the chef de race system, but for females. It's not the immediate success of the horse that's important in obtaining the designation, but the impact his or her descendants have had on the breed.

The closer to one's own horse the stars or the Chef designation is, the more athletic the horse is likely to be. I count only the ones in the first five generations, unless there is a mare line like Gondolette. And when you find several mares in succession, particularly in the bottom line of the pedigree, you've likely hit paydirt for race breeding.

That said, there is a tendency for female families to go through periods of weakness and periods of strength. The lines wouldn't exist today if they had not been strong at some point, and the whole intent of breeding is to recreate strength. For those who are interested, for sires, dosage is a very handy tool, even for sporthorse people. There's a fellow named Bill Lathrop who has done a female form of dosage which he calls "conduit mares", and it will show mare tendencies and mare family tendencies toward stamina and brilliance.

Since the 1860's (?) TBs have been divided into female families, and one tool that breeders sometimes use is replicating female families sire side top and female side bottom. Doesn't have anything to do with a given horse, but it's one of the things that can influence the physical expression of the genotype. http://www.bloodlines.net is the best place to go for female family information.

CdnRider
Mar. 17, 2008, 02:07 AM
Going to add my two into the mix, this thread was a great way to spend 1 and 1/2 hours, thanks Vineyridge for all the information.

Brie: http://www.pedigreequery.com/agree+with+me2 Got her as a 3 year old with a chip in her ankle (had surgery twice - Dec 05 and Mar 06), has been sound since but is a solid bodied girl on small feet. She will jump all day but tense through her back in dressage. Plan on doing training this year with her. I looked into Lifes Magic, she was a great racehorse but none of her offspring did a whole lot.

Frankie: http://www.pedigreequery.com/frankies+kismet Just got her in October super mover, big stride. Opposite of Brie, leggy, narrow, short backed, big legs/feet.

Foxtrot's
Mar. 17, 2008, 02:35 AM
As sporthorse TB breeding gets more refined and the sporthorse lines get identified, the green stars will not matter because the sporthorse TBs will not necessarily be good racehorses. My mares sire was a Grand Prix jumper that made it to the World Cup qualifiers, but he won $800.00 at the track. His offspring make top flight hunters and jumpers. Her mother had no black type, but was a spectacular mover, who looked exactly like her ancestor, Scapa Flow.
We will never know if A Fine Romance would have made a racehorse
because he never raced. Heard that on COTH.

Just a thought.

vineyridge
Mar. 17, 2008, 03:02 AM
I beg to disagree about the green stars. They provide a tremendous amount of information. If ever there was a producing mare, it was Scapa Flow. To find her or Selene or Mahubah in the tail female pedigree means a lot, and it isn't just because of one famous sire offspring.

We know Weekend Surprise and Shenanigans are green star mares, but since they produced several horses that were famous enough that they and their progeny can be tracked, we know enough to be wary of them for sport, especially tail female. Not that we are ever likely to see a Weekend Surprise filly anywhere near any of our barns.

And that is important.

2boys
Mar. 17, 2008, 09:36 AM
I saw the Mr. Prospector information on one of the recommended sites, but nothing about anyone else in his heritage. Anyone know anything?
http://www.pedigreequery.com/big+poppy

DLee
Mar. 17, 2008, 10:21 AM
Wow I had never heard of (or even noticed!) the green stars before. Vineyridge, would you mind looking at my gelding and telling me anything of interest (even bad) you might have? http://www.pedigreequery.com/fifty+three+cards This has been an amazingly informative thread. :yes: Diana

Vesper Sparrow
Mar. 17, 2008, 11:28 AM
I'm totally fascinated by this thread. Any comments about mine? She has quite a bit of inbreeding, it seems, along with quite a few of the sporthorse sires listed on the site:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/andreas+friend

She just turned 24, is a tough old bird and did Training successfully with a junior (as well as hunters, jumpers, dressage, etc.). Now she's with someone closer to her own age (relatively speaking) :lol: and we're doing dressage. I could probably still event her at a low level if I had the guts... She's 15.3 and slightly built, nothing to look at conformation-wise but basically sound and not downhill or anything.

Lamma70
Mar. 17, 2008, 01:30 PM
Vineyridge,
It looks like there are lots of people (myself included) that would love to learn more detailed info about their horses pedigrees. I think you should start a business, or a Web site on this. Just a thought. :)

lalahartma1
Mar. 17, 2008, 03:17 PM
Here's my little girl:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/nashua+miss+dancer

She an OTTB who performed miserably as a 3 yo old (in 1997). She's pretty much chilled out since then. We are both starting out our eventing training.

vineyridge
Mar. 17, 2008, 03:40 PM
Here's my little girl:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/nashua+miss+dancer

She an OTTB who performed miserably as a 3 yo old (in 1997). She's pretty much chilled out since then. We are both starting out our eventing training.

This mare has an almost perfect sport horse pedigree and needs to be bred NOW!

She too is one of those living dinosaurs that have old bloodlines that need preserving, and they are very, very close up. I have never seen Johnstown/Jamestown so close in such a young horse. I don't think I recall seeing Nashua so close.

The reason she probably was a total failure as a racer is that she has a lot of stamina laden, late maturing lines that could offset the Nasrullah, and those are precisely the kinds that American racing of this era does not appreciate.

vineyridge
Mar. 17, 2008, 03:45 PM
Dblitz,
If you don't want to breed your mare NOW, you can take her home to Illinois and breed her to Roanoke. He is, after all, Little Tricky's sire.

And one CAN dicker on stud fees. In fact, in the TB world, one should.

lep
Mar. 17, 2008, 03:54 PM
Vineyridge, why do you say be wary of Shenanigans for sport? I really am clueless and am just asking. I had heard that Icecapade produced good sport horses, and he's obviously out of Shenanigans. I have a 1/2 TB mare (the other half is Clyde...go figure, but she is cute in my opinion). Here is my mare's dam's pedigree if it's worth anything....
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/my+favorite+tune

mbj
Mar. 17, 2008, 04:29 PM
I doubt that the green star mares in my mare's pedigree count much because they are mostly not in her tail-female line. However, they include:3rd generation:Natalma, Flaming Page.
4th:Natalma (I know,bad knees, but luckily my girl is very sound with clean legs after racing and eventing),Flaring Top,Knight's Daughter,Gambetta,Aspidistra,Almahmoud.
5th:Almahmoud,Feola,Mumtaz Begum,Rough Shod,Geisha,Natalma

In the dam of a known successful eventer, Heyday, there are:Mah Mahal,Mumtaz Mahal,Lady Josephine,Blanche,Canterbury Pilgrim,Black Cherry,Padua
In his Sire:Friars Carse,Vaila,Durban,Mah Mahal,Teresina,Mahubah,Banshee,Durban,Mumtaz Mahal,Hamoaze

EAlli
Mar. 17, 2008, 05:13 PM
Even though he never raced, I have to add Mokhieba into the mix. I have known several of his babies, and would love to own one if ever given the chance. The ones I have known have quite, sane personalities with a jump to die for.

The little I know about my guy's breeding is that his sire produces decent steeplechasers, but thats about it.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/adept10

vineyridge
Mar. 17, 2008, 05:50 PM
Vineyridge, why do you say be wary of Shenanigans for sport? I really am clueless and am just asking. I had heard that Icecapade produced good sport horses, and he's obviously out of Shenanigans. I have a 1/2 TB mare (the other half is Clyde...go figure, but she is cute in my opinion). Here is my mare's dam's pedigree if it's worth anything....
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/my+favorite+tune

Sorry about that. Shenanigans was bred to Buckpasser and produced Buckfinder. He's great. Shenanigans was bred to Nearctic and produced Icecapade. He's a perfectly good sire for sporthorses. She was bred to Damascus and produced Near East, who was perfectly sound. Where Shenanigans seems to have been a disaster is when she was bred to Bold Ruler or his sons. That's a Native Dancer/Bold Ruler cross. She produced Ruffian and On to Glory, and both broke down during their racing careers. She has only one daughter who has bred on, and that's Laughter, a full sister to Ruffian. She's in a lot of pedigrees, including Private Terms. But not one of her foals is to a Bold Ruler line stallion.

Now before you remind me that Ruffian died from breaking her leg again thrashing around coming out of surgery, so did Shenanigans. And Ruffian's sire broke his legs twice.

What I'd draw from this is that today Shenanigans plus many Bold Ruler lines could be trouble.

carasmom
Mar. 17, 2008, 06:14 PM
I too find this thread very interesting. Anyone have any comments on this mare. I bought her last spring after she failed gate training at the track.:) Needless to say she has a few issues.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/and+so+on+and+on

grayarabpony
Mar. 17, 2008, 06:18 PM
I thought that Ruffian's sire didn't come out of anesthesia well after a leg fracture and had to be put down -- I thought I read that in Backstretch. Doesn't mean I'm remembering correctly though.

Ruffian did have very long sloping pasterns. Looking at her pictures after her breakdown they did seem extreme. What a shame, she was such a huge talent.

lep
Mar. 17, 2008, 06:20 PM
VR, thanks for clarifying. My mare has Icecapade (Shenanigans + Nearctic) in her pedigree, not the bad breeding you mentioned. Whew. Of course, only being 1/2 TB, I'm not sure how much it matters, but it's still interesting to hear about her TB side.

vineyridge
Mar. 17, 2008, 06:27 PM
I thought that Ruffian's sire didn't come out of anesthesia well after a leg fracture and had to be put down -- I thought I read that in Backstretch. Doesn't mean I'm remembering correctly though.

Ruffian did have very long sloping pasterns. Looking at her pictures after her breakdown they did seem extreme. What a shame, she was such a huge talent.

I know Reviewer broke his legs twice. If one was coming out anaesthesia well, that I don't recall. Shenanigans died that way as did Ruffian. I do recall one commentator on Ruffian wondering whatever could have been in the minds of the folks who put Reviewer to Shenanigans--that it was a recipe for disaster.

grayarabpony
Mar. 17, 2008, 07:39 PM
What kind of fractures did they have and when? Do you know?

Looking at Barbaro his breakdown may have due in part to the fine bones he inherited from his dam, although he was a gorgeous horse with a ton of talent.

dblitz
Mar. 17, 2008, 08:21 PM
Dblitz,
If you don't want to breed your mare NOW, you can take her home to Illinois and breed her to Roanoke. He is, after all, Little Tricky's sire.

And one CAN dicker on stud fees. In fact, in the TB world, one should.

Hmmm, he is very nice too. Oh so tempting!!! Our girl is as sweet and kind as they come. I thank all those who have dealt with her in her life so far as she is not ruined. She is not the slightest bit resentful, head shy, or spoiled, interested and eager to greet each day with a smile on her face, every person is another opportunity to have her ears scratched. She ran 17 times mosstly at a mile, won over 30k, her last race on 1/6/08, retiring sound and mostly unblemished. Now she is adapting to life off the track in the slow country lane. I wish TBs could get full JC papers with shipped semen. I want this mare to relax, gain some weight, and enjoy life for a while. But, these stallions and the thought of preserving good blood tempts the pedigree wonk in me sorely!!

LynLyn
Mar. 17, 2008, 08:28 PM
I like Nearco cause he was tough as nails. I also like Turn to/Hail to Reason.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/emily+sharp+fox

When looking for a youngster I picked Carolyn because of the Mamoud..
http://www.pedigreequery.com/carolyns+courage

dblitz
Mar. 17, 2008, 08:39 PM
Nice Mares!!! Bold jumpers and great looking pedigrees

dblitz
Mar. 17, 2008, 08:44 PM
http://www.pedigreequery.com/phebe3

This mare belongs to an aquaintence and could be bred if one were willing to take a chance on her age. she had had a number of useful half bred offspring. I see such nice blood close and I begin to lose my senses!




http://www.pedigreequery.com/broadview+jewel
I owned this mare for a number of years, she was a good girl with a fantastic jump.
Got her approved by the Hanoverian Society with very good scores, an overall 7. She went to a good hunter home and was never less than reserve champ.

mbj
Mar. 17, 2008, 09:07 PM
This horse, who has Shenanigans twice in his pedigree, and also Bold Ruler, has been very sound, in part I think, because he is tall,leggy and a light mover. (http://www.pedigreequery.com/favorable+terms)
He is a really good jumper, earned $70-80,000 on the track, goes eventing Prelim now (no jumping faults, with some time as he has just moved up), and a dressage judge had this to say about him on the thread about good moving TBs:
rebecca yount
"I saw a TB like this. His name is Favorable Terms and he is ridden in horse trials by a young woman named Maisy Grassie in Maryland and PA. If anyone ever has a chance to see him, I judged a schooling show in the spring of 2006 and he was one of the best-moving horses I have EVER seen."
The Cadre Noir dressage coaches she has worked with also like him very much.

In terms of the problem with Bold Ruler/Shennanigans nicks,maybe other factors such as his dam being by Horatius and his sire by Private Account helped?


We have loved Damascus line horses as well.

This filly is an amazing hunter mover and jumper http://www.pedigreequery.com/snake+lips

LAZ
Mar. 17, 2008, 11:33 PM
Take a look at the broodmares at this place--I'd love to have some of them for sport horse breeding.
http://www.unbridledsuccess.net/broodmares.htm

vineyridge
Mar. 18, 2008, 04:04 AM
Hmmm, he is very nice too. Oh so tempting!!! Our girl is as sweet and kind as they come. I thank all those who have dealt with her in her life so far as she is not ruined. She is not the slightest bit resentful, head shy, or spoiled, interested and eager to greet each day with a smile on her face, every person is another opportunity to have her ears scratched. She ran 17 times mosstly at a mile, won over 30k, her last race on 1/6/08, retiring sound and mostly unblemished. Now she is adapting to life off the track in the slow country lane. I wish TBs could get full JC papers with shipped semen. I want this mare to relax, gain some weight, and enjoy life for a while. But, these stallions and the thought of preserving good blood tempts the pedigree wonk in me sorely!!

If you don't care about papers, Rock King (full TB) still has some frozen semen in England. :lol:

vineyridge
Mar. 18, 2008, 04:07 AM
Take a look at the broodmares at this place--I'd love to have some of them for sport horse breeding.
http://www.unbridledsuccess.net/broodmares.htm

I've already picked out a couple that I'd love to find in my Christmas stocking this year. :D

Wonder if we like the same ones?