Bravo Scott Hassler- BANG on- again!

[ASB Stars]

I was thrilled to read Scott's piece in this weeks Chronicle. He discusses the necessity of registering your horses, and makes his case at several different levels.

In my breed, it is a sad truth that breeders will, far too often, sell horses without their papers- quite intentionally. They will have a dealer/broker pick up a load, and they simply do not the world to know that their stud produced that horse. Unfortunately, these are the horses who will make superb sport horses, many times, and YES, we would like them to have their identity intact.

You never know what that backward foal might grow up to be, so, regardless of bloodline or preferred registry- please remember that this is your horses "birth certificate"- that will, for their whole life, let people know who they are, and where they came from.

And BRAVO Scott- another honest and frank assessment of an issue that crosses many lines.

[Oakstable]

I'm not a subscriber. Can you summarize his points?

[ASB Stars]

In no particular order of importance...

He states that it is important to register a foal- even if you plan on keeping that horse forever- so that you can make sure that the horse is eligible for programs/competitions that you may not contemplate at the time the foal is born.

It helps to track the performance of particular bloodlines, to see what is going into sport horse bloodlines- I believe he is referring, somewhat, to the idea of tracking via database, ultimately.

Breeder recognition- BIG point!

And, it safeguards the future of the horse. I am really on board with that one! :yes:

[PineTreeFarm]

Not so sure about the article. It's about breed registration papers but he mentions the IHF as an example, saying the horse is not eligible unless registered. But in the case of the IHF there is no requirement for breed papers. The stallion has to be nominated in order for the foal to participate. No breed papers required, just IHF recording. The IJF also requires the stallion to be nominated but you don't need breed registry papers to participate.

I think we have discussed in other threads that papers do nothing to track performance horses. And there have been lots of threads discussing the premise that papers do nothing to stop horses from going to slaughter.

I'm all for giving the breeder credit. But I think the article was more about giving credit to the breed organization than anything else.

[Equibrit]

Did he mention how much it costs to register said foals?

Just an example of charges;

American Warmblood Registry
P.O. Box 197 Carter MT 59420
Phone (406) 734 5499 Fax (775) 667 0516 amerwarmblood@aol.com www.americanwarmblood.com
2008 FEE SCHEDULE REGISTRATION FEES:
Stallions $ 350.00▪▪
Foreign Registration Administration $ 195.00
Mares/ Geldings $ 175.00 Foals less than four weeks of age $ 150.00 #
Foals over four weeks (but under 10 months) $ 175.00 #
DNA typing $ 100.00 DNA typing (Multiple kits) $ 75.00
Bloodtyping (Pricing good through June 2007) $ 170.00
Reading of non-AWR DNA-cases $ 45.00▪

MISCELLANEOUS FEES:
Annual Membership (Non-members pay double fees)
Membership AWR $ 75.00
Lifetime Membership AWR $ 800.00
Registration Certificate Changes $ 35.00
Ownership Transfer within 3 months of date of sale $ 35.00
Ownership Transfer within 6 months to twelve months of date of sale $ 85.00
Ownership Transfer after twelve months of date of sale $ 150.00
Registration Certificate Replacement $ 250.00 *
Annual Stallion Breeding Permit $ 250.00
Parentage Verification Report $ 160.00
Breeding Reports - Late fee, per month late $ 100.00
Foreign breeding transfer fee (per breeding) $ 200.00
Add photo to online stallion roster $ 45.00 AWR Jacket $ 65.00** (XL & XXL $80)
AWR Fleece Pullover $ 55.00**
AWR Hooded Sweatshirt $ 35.00**
AWR Polo Shirts –navy blue $ 30.00** AWR Baseball cap $ 15.00**
AWR Logo Bumper Sticker $ 1.00
AWR Saddlepad Dressage/Jumper $ 75.00**
Plus shipping fee (Priority Mail) one item (See merchandise order form)

INSPECTION FEES:
Stallion pre-inspection –Conformation & Triangle & Liberty $ 500.00 ##
Stallion Performance Test $ 500.00 ##
Mare or Gelding Grading $ 100.00 ##
Mare/ Gelding Performance Test* $ 300.00 ##
Youngstock Grading- Conformation & On Triangle $ 100.00 ##
Foal Inspection N/C ## Branding of adult horses (pending approval from office) $ 350.00
Site Host Fee $ 900.00


Just add up ALL the charges that are required to get a foal registered (mare registration, membership DNA typing for both, and inspections) and then decide if it's worth it.

[TropicalStorm]

Equibrit - is that common for all registries? It can't be.
When I registered my two with the CSHA, membership was $80, and registering a foal is an additional $80 and the DNA test was $50. Everything was under $250 by the time I was done-I don't see why you wouldn't register, quite honestly. It increased the value of the horse, imo, easier to track, ect.

[Clear Blue]

I haven't seen the article yet.

Did he discuss the value of the Unique Equine Life Number? That is what will be useful to track data.

[PineTreeFarm]

Did he discuss the value of the Unique Equine Life Number? That is what will be useful to track data.

No, not mentioned.

[Equibrit]

Oldenburg ISR;

Mares


If you present a mare at an inspection and if you are a new member you need to pay at the inspection: (all fees in US$)
-registration entry and inspection fee for the mare$ 150.00 -membership fee$ 80.00
If you present a mare with a foal/yearling and if you are a new member, you need to pay:
-for the mare's registration entry and inspection fee
(includes the annual fee for the year of breeding)$ 180.00 -for the foal registration and branding
(200.00 for a yearling or 250.00 for a 2yo)$150.00 -membership fee$ 80.00
There is a fee of $ 30.00 for incomplete paperwork!
(e.g. missing copy of the registration paper/pedigree)< TOP (http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=inspection_fee%schedule#top) > Foals



If you present a foal/yearling and if you are a new member, you need to pay directly at the inspection:
-registration entry for the foal (200.00 for a yearling, 250.00 for a 2yo)$150.00 -membership fee$ 80.00
Even if you don't own the dam of the foal/yearling, you also need to pay membership fee, since your name/address will be listed as a separate address.

If the dam's annual fees for the year of breeding and foaling had not been paid, you also need to pay these fees.

There is a fee of $ 30.00 for incomplete paperwork! (Missing original breeding certificate, missing letter of parentage verification for yearlings and older)< TOP (http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=inspection_fee%schedule#top) > Stallions

-Inspection fee, must be paid with the nomination(400.00 if nominated before April 1st)$500.00
-Registration entry, if your stallion passes the inspection and will get a Certified/Lifetime Breeding License (includes annual fee of that year)$300.00
-Membership fee for the year of registration entry$ 80.00

There is a fee of $ 30.00 for incomplete paperwork! (missing copy of the registration paper/pedigree and performance records or 100 Day test result)




Oldenburg Horse Breeders' Society
North American Division of Verband der Züchter des Oldenburger Pferdes
150 Hammocks Drive,
West Palm Beach, FL 33413. Phone 561-969-0709, Fax 561-969-0064 Oldenburg@oldenburghorse.com
2008 Fees Membership:

Annual Membership fee $ 65
If paid after November 30 th, 2007 $ 100

Broodmares:
Inspection fee $ 150

Foals:
Inspection, registration, micro chipping and DNA typing (including annual mare fee) $ 250
Birth certification $ 300 Yearling registration, micro chipping and DNA typing $ 300 Two-year-old $ 350 Surcharge for single breeding permit $ 100

Breeding Stallions:
Inspection fee $ 250 Registration fee, young stallions plus DNA typing(done at inspection) $ 200
Registration fee, older stallions plus DNA typing(done at inspection) $ 300
Annual fee, all stallions $ 350

Services:
Transfer of Ownership $ 50 Re-issue of lost papers $ 150
Pedigree research for Jockey Club mares $ 15

[Foxtrot's]

Not only to track who the horse is but, importantly, to have a guarantee of birth date. As horses get older and change hands, they end up having elastic birth years.

[Touchstone Farm]

Scott is right on. And if you decide to breed, you need to factor in all the costs involved in breeding...from vet fees, stud fees...and yes, registration fees. It's just a part of the "business", even if you are doing it for yourself. If you plan to breed, you need to think about ALL the costs...registration is a part of the cost.

[pwynnnorman]

I read that article thinking just the opposite, alas. Well, not opposite, but more like thinking that was all well and good for the dressage-sporthorse type, but how relevant is it for eventers, jumpers or hunters? I really think we have to solve the identity issue before registration will really make much of a difference, don't you? I can see how useful it is in disciplines where young horses are recognized by several systems (showing, inspections, etc.), but what about those disciplines where there's a lot of time between registration and recognition? That's where things break down, I suspect, and so why, while it's a good theory, it might not actually be as worthwhile in practice--not until there's a way to insure that a horse keeps its identity throughout its career (especially when it changes hands). Also, and as usual, his perspective always seems to backburner the existance of and important role played by the American Thoroughbred...

[I'm reminded of this because I found it pretty cool to see the number of TBs competing in the $50K Grand Prix at HITS today. They're not extinct yet!]

[PineTreeFarm]

Here's a small quote from the article:

'This leads to rewards, feeling good about our programs and the ability to track how we are progressing. What a shame for a nice horse to be restricted from a program because he is not registered. In many cases again, the end result becomes upsetting to the owner of the horse or the new purchaser of the horse. '

I can't think of any programs a hunter would be restricted from on the basis of 'breed papers'. Maybe he is referring to the All Breed awards, triangle trotters? If so, what he says is not relevant to Hunters and has little bearing on Jumpers.
For Hunters the only recording needed is USEF and that's if you want points. Jumpers do require recording if a class has over x$ but again, no breed papers required.
I don't think the FEH program requires breed papers either.
So what programs is he talking about?

[ASB Stars]

So, in the case of the brilliant lady who bred the amazing Teddy, and anyone seeking a horse bred to have the jump and quality to be a hunter, or just plain jump, and be a jumper, you really do not think that knowing how they are bred- in the short, or long term makes a difference?

If this is the case, you ought to stop advertising the relationship between horses, because, I mean, what the heck- can you prove it? And who cares?

[3Dogs]

PTF - the AHS offers awards on hunter performance and for instance, this year the co- champion USEF hunter breeding champion was NOT listed for an AHS award because the breeder/owner of the filly did not file COP papers and did not register the foal, meaning the stallion owner got no recognition.

I think that is a shame for the stallion owner - and for the AHS who cannot track the results of unregistered foals from AHS approved stallions. Yes, the USEF has those results, but depending on your point of view, it may not help in the promotion of US based breeding if foals are not registered, particularly for our desire (or mine at least) to establish hunter breeding in the US.

JMHO

[not again]

"Not only to track who the horse is but, importantly, to have a guarantee of birth date. As horses get older and change hands, they end up having elastic birth years."
And all this time we thought that the airplane or van ride to the new owner was actually in a time machine...:lol:

[tri]

Well, number one, you don't need a registry to prove bloodlines. # 2, how many of the registries are actually TRACKING performance? NONE. Yes, they have some year end awards that may or may not be accurate but the registries are not tied into the USEF and therefor don't know what horses in their own database are doing in sport. Heck, the euro registries here in the U.S. don't even share information between themselves.

What we need is a registry that is designed around the U.S. sporthorse world - not the european one - that aids people in bringing horses to market economically, has an aggressive interest in tracking the horses in sport and shares that information and creates a branded image that pulls buyers to the product instead of sending them overseas.

[PineTreeFarm]

PTF - the AHS offers awards on hunter performance and for instance, this year the co- champion USEF hunter breeding champion was NOT listed for an AHS award because the breeder/owner of the filly did not file COP papers and did not register the foal, meaning the stallion owner got no recognition.

I think that is a shame for the stallion owner - and for the AHS who cannot track the results of unregistered foals from AHS approved stallions. Yes, the USEF has those results, but depending on your point of view, it may not help in the promotion of US based breeding if foals are not registered, particularly for our desire (or mine at least) to establish hunter breeding in the US.

JMHO

Is the sire/dam info listed with USEF and the breeder info?
If so then the stallion owner got credit for a win in a larger pool of competitors than the limited AHS awards. Somehow the USEF award seems more important.
Why would lack of breed registration deter recognition of American bred horses. Perhaps you are more interested in breed registry recognition?
Does AHS really consider HB as a 'performance' division?
One more question? How does AHS track performance ? Surely you don't mean that they have the USEF results files sent to them?

[3Dogs]

PTF - I cannot answer your questions about how the AHS recognizes its awards - I suspect they do indeed find out from the USEF. As a breeder of Hanoverians, for the hunters, I would like to see ALL major awards that their registered stallions, registered mares and registered foals win. But that won't happen if one of those are not registered. So yes, I do care about the breed registry. The USEF is fine, I use it,I belong to it, but it's goals are not to promote Hanoverians, which is important to me.

I have not received my Chronicle yet - I am on the last paper route apparently -

[Clear Blue]

The AHS awards program is for its members.

The horse needs to have registration or COP papers from the AHS. The owners need to be current members and the division the horse is competing in needs to be registered with the AHS (each year).

The awards chairman reviews the (online) USEF division rankings for the horses names that are signed up for those specific divisions.

The horse 3dogs mentions is listed as an Oldenburg. It would not be eligible for the AHS awards.

[PineTreeFarm]

PTF - I cannot answer your questions about how the AHS recognizes its awards - I suspect they do indeed find out from the USEF. As a breeder of Hanoverians, for the hunters, I would like to see ALL major awards that their registered stallions, registered mares and registered foals win. But that won't happen if one of those are not registered. So yes, I do care about the breed registry. The USEF is fine, I use it,I belong to it, but it's goals are not to promote Hanoverians, which is important to me.

I have not received my Chronicle yet - I am on the last paper route apparently -

I did set you up a bit and I apologize for that. But your statement that AHS was 'tracking' results implied ( at least to me ) that they actually maintained a database of show results. I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen. I do show results and file them with USEF and other groups. I've never sent AHS ( or any other registry) a file. Most likely USEF tells them at the end of the year what the highest placed [insert registry name] they have in each division is based on USEF recording. And I don't think USEF even requires any pedigree info to assign a breed. Lots of 'Dutch Warmblood' s out there with no pedigree listed.

Ok, so you've stated that you are interested in promoting AHS. That's fine, whatever works for you but that presents another set of problems. That's NOT the same as promoting US bred horses. If you look at USEF results there is no way to tell if a Euro Registry horse is US bred or Euro bred unless the breeder is listed. In fact, I can trace a lot more TB/WB crosses to US breeders then I can WB's. No registry, who cares, but the breeder is often listed. These horses are purpose bred to be Hunters and they are a product of a US breeding program. Possibly the breeder didn't feel like going to the expense and trouble to get a TB mare approved with a registry. Who knows, they had their reasons to not bother.
But when a Euro registered horse is listed it just goes into the Hano or Holsteiner or whatever column. NO identification as an American success.

And that's a part of the reason folks go to Europe to buy horses.

[buschkn]

I am not sure how tracking cal TRULY work in this country when every new owner picks a new name for their new horse, and most of the horses' sires and dams are listed as "unknown", imported or US bred. We are buying an imported KWPN G, showing under his registered name with USEF, I have a copy of his papers to look at, listed as DWB, parents "unknown".

Sometimes, it is just convenience or circumstance. For example, I have a JC TB G that I took to a B show. I thought he could show without being registered but in the jumpers they said he had to have a USEF #. I knew his sires name but couldn't remember the dam, so she's listed as unknown. I could write USEF, but she is a race bred TB and it probably doesn't matter. Plus I haven't shown him rated since then.

Sometimes it is deliberate. Trainer wants horse to be younger, or imported, or xy or z. I saw a thread not too long ago about a breeder who saw one of her former horses at a show, had sold him to a trainer, went to talk to the new owner and they said the horse was recently imported, purchased via said trainer. Hmmmm.

OR, horse has a crappy record, season, etc. Horse needs new start, ahhh, a new name and a new number, VOILA! OR, new owner always wanted a horsie named such and such, new name new number VOILA!

SO, I believe VERY strongly in registering horses or at least having some sort of pedigree verification/DNA testing, and believe in the heritability of the desirable traits we are looking for. The being said, until there is a way to track every horse for a lifetime (freeze brand, microchip, other???), I feel it is a bit niave to suggest that just registering our horses will provide tracking and a lifetime of security. I am also on the slow bus route, so don't have the article yet, just my thoughts in general. It's a very frustrating problem we have in this country, IMHO.

[ASB Stars]

If you do not start somewhere- with a paper trail of some kind- it will never be possible to have a database with meaningful information. We may not have anything useful now, but there will come a time.

When someone changes the name on a horse, registries need to charge or that priveledge, so that they can issue new papers, keep the chain of ownership intact, and keep the records accurate regarding that horses competition.

[DownYonder]

We are buying an imported KWPN G, showing under his registered name with USEF, I have a copy of his papers to look at, listed as DWB, parents "unknown".

I'm not sure I understand this. The horse's parents are listed as "unknown" on his KWPN registration papers? :confused:

Also, when I see DWB, I think Danish WB. I expect to see Dutch WBs listed as KWPN, NA/WPN, or NRPS.

[buschkn]

The bottom line is that most people who show don't care very much about breeding/bloodlines. They just want a nice horse to ride, so putting the burden on them to re-register the horse etc is simply not going to happen. Unless the horses have to be microchipped/DNA tested/something like that to get a USEF/USDF/USEA # I don't see how we can track. I don't disagree that it's important and would like to see it happen, I just think most people showing don't care enough to bother and would rather say the horse has an unknown history rather than jump through a bunch of hoops. Discouraging to say the least.

[pwynnnorman]

So, in the case of the brilliant lady who bred the amazing Teddy, and anyone seeking a horse bred to have the jump and quality to be a hunter, or just plain jump, and be a jumper, you really do not think that knowing how they are bred- in the short, or long term makes a difference?

If this is the case, you ought to stop advertising the relationship between horses, because, I mean, what the heck- can you prove it? And who cares?

Disclaimer: I haven't read posts after this one yet. I jsut had to respond asap.

And with a bit of a chuckle! ASB Stars, I am literally staring at a set of PHR registration papers, Ted's (stallion) full brother and I am literally waiting to receive Kev's son's (half-Welsh) papers. I have to go to the safe deposit box at the bank to get the registration numbers for Ted and Kev's dam and sire to complete the paperwork, but, yes, I DO want his DNA type to be recorded. IMO, that's more important that the papers themselves, down the line (given the current state of matters) and PHR is the only easy way to get that record on file.

But folks have been claiming relationships in non-dressage industries for years. Maybe some aren't true, maybe some are, but the thing is that in those other disciplines, it's just not the breeding that matters as much as the training and the type. Y'see, I think Mr. Hassler is used to the European way of being TOLD what is what: that's what papers kinda attempt to do, don't they? They TELL you that this horse "should" be good because, well, look how it's bred.

I don't think we're ready to accept that in this country yet. There are too many examples out there--and too many intervening factors given the nature of our performance system--for us a majority to accept being told like that.

So, while I'm recording the DNA, I'm not really planning to register any of Kev's foals other than if they are Welsh (because Welsh is a cheap way to register, too). I sure as heck wouldn't dream of shelling out what it takes to go the inspection route--wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. WAY too subjective for my business! And I truly believe if it moves like a winner, if it jumps like a winner, if it looks like a winner and if it is claimed to be related to a winner, it probably IS! :yes:

[carnivalhill]

I know this may be further than some breeders wish to go, but I try to do "my part" in keeping track of the horses I produce.

I register them as soon after birth as possible in my designated registry, and I also have them lifetime registered in both the USEF and USDF. If you apply for the lifetime registration before the animal is one year of age, the fees are considerably less. This way the paperwork is in place for myself, or future owners of the horse if it is sold.

[DownYonder]

But folks have been claiming relationships in non-dressage industries for years. Maybe some aren't true, maybe some are, but the thing is that in those other disciplines, it's just not the breeding that matters as much as the training and the type.


Hmm, then why are Holsteiners, Selle Francais, Belgian WBs, Zangersheide, etc., so famous for producing jumpers? Methinks that most breeders involved with those registries believe from the bottom of their hearts that "breeding" matters a heck of a lot.

Besides, you consistently produce a "type" by selectively breeding for it.

Y'see, I think Mr. Hassler is used to the European way of being TOLD what is what: that's what papers kinda attempt to do, don't they? They TELL you that this horse "should" be good because, well, look how it's bred.

FWIW, I asked Hassler at a Y/H symposium last year about the importance of bloodlines when looking for a nice young dressage prospect. His response was that bloodlines are only one part of the picture and that when shopping for a dresssage prospect, it is far more important that the horse be suitable for the intended purpose. I imagine he would say much the same thing if asked about young hunter, jumper, eventing, or driving prospects.

[pwynnnorman]

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, Down Yonder. I'm not "against" in the least. I acknowledge the value. I just don't think the time is right yet to make it worthwhile in the other disciplines because of the identity issues we still need to solve over here (and because with the mindset we have, there's no real need...yet).

[PineTreeFarm]

Hmm, then why are Holsteiners, Selle Francais, Belgian WBs, Zangersheide, etc., so famous for producing jumpers? Methinks that most breeders involved with those registries believe from the bottom of their hearts that "breeding" matters a heck of a lot.

Besides, you consistently produce a "type" by selectively breeding for it.
.

No argument with your statement but the article is about the importance of recording a horse with a registry to push breed recognition.

Let's say horses A and B are full brothers. Horse A is registered with 'xyz' registry. Horse B is not. Both horses have great show records. USEF's records show horse A as 'xyz' and horse B as 'american warmblood' or 'TB/WB cross', etc. xyz registry uses horse A as an example of what their registry produces. They are silent about horse B.
So the breeding did matter in the performance result but having breed papers or the lack of did not make a tiny,tiny difference to the horse,the rider, the owner, USEF's tracking of results or any National, zone or local awards either horse won.
Selective breeding does not depend on a piece of paper.

[sporthorsefilly]

Selective breeding does not depend on a piece of paper.

Perhaps not, but that "piece of paper" is the proof of selective breeding.

The Jockey Club registers horses and provides maintains pedigrees for a reason...

The old saying "Blood will out!"

Perhaps performance is of primary importance, in the show ring. For those of us who breed horses, not just buy, sell, agent or show...but for those who breed horses, pedigree and the proof there of, is what makes a great performance horse.

[DownYonder]

No argument with your statement but the article is about the importance of recording a horse with a registry to push breed recognition.

Let's say horses A and B are full brothers. Horse A is registered with 'xyz' registry. Horse B is not. Both horses have great show records. USEF's records show horse A as 'xyz' and horse B as 'american warmblood' or 'TB/WB cross', etc. xyz registry uses horse A as an example of what their registry produces. They are silent about horse B.
So the breeding did matter in the performance result but having breed papers or the lack of did not make a tiny,tiny difference to the horse,the rider, the owner, USEF's tracking of results or any National, zone or local awards either horse won.
Selective breeding does not depend on a piece of paper.

Of course the registry is "silent" about Horse B - it doesn't even know about it, because that horse is not listed (i.e., "registered") in its database. Horse A would be called "Hanoverian" (to use that example, if the horse was registered with VhW or AHS, etc.), while Horse B would be a grade horse. Besides, who is to say the horses are "full brothers" if there is nothing to prove the parentage of Horse B?

And I was not claiming that selective breeding depends on a piece of paper, but rather than selective breeding is what consistently produces a certain "type" of horse - whether the desired type is hunter, jumper, eventer, dressage horse, etc. It is a lot easier to do selective breeding when you know the genotype of the horses involved.

[DownYonder]

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, Down Yonder. I'm not "against" in the least. I acknowledge the value. I just don't think the time is right yet to make it worthwhile in the other disciplines because of the identity issues we still need to solve over here (and because with the mindset we have, there's no real need...yet).

But couldn't we solve the identity problems a lot faster if we enforced a "one-horse/one number - for life" system?

[PineTreeFarm]

. Besides, who is to say the horses are "full brothers" if there is nothing to prove the parentage of Horse B?


Papers by themselves are not proof of a horse's identity. DNA is much more reliable.

[PineTreeFarm]

But couldn't we solve the identity problems a lot faster if we enforced a "one-horse/one number - for life" system?

At this point there is no requirement for a horse to have papers or any other ID in order to show.
Some of the NAIS proposals would assign a lifetime number but it won't necessarily be the ULN.
In the US you'd need to get all the other Breeds that USEF recognizes to go along with any numbering scheme. Because those other Breeds don't much care about WBFSH there is little value to them to sign up for something that benefits a small number of breeders outside of their Breed Registry.

[ASB Stars]

There is NO question that a horse could be sold with a set of papers that are not his/hers. Either through an honest mistake, or something more nefarious, these things happen.
DNA can then be used at such point as there is a real question.

However, how many threads have you seen where someone asks what particular stallion or bloodline tends to throw "XYZ". And then, people reel off answers. Why? Because they (hopefully) have experience with horses from those lines, and they know what characteristics are most likely to be heritable.

In my breed, it is scary how much of a horses conformation, coloring, temperament, and ability can be predicted. The old horsemen- who really know the lines, could be standing next to you, and not tell you more!

So, understanding how each line has done from a performance perspective is very important, isn't it?

I do think it is a bit disingenuous of any breeder to fall back- at least intially- to the "it's the individual" position. Of course, it is! But that makes it a bit hard to also say, "well, I think you should breed your mare to this stallion, because then you can expect this to happen..."

[fish]

Of course the registry is "silent" about Horse B - it doesn't even know about it, because that horse is not listed (i.e., "registered") in its database. Horse A would be called "Hanoverian" (to use that example, if the horse was registered with VhW or AHS, etc.), while Horse B would be a grade horse. Besides, who is to say the horses are "full brothers" if there is nothing to prove the parentage of Horse B?

And I was not claiming that selective breeding depends on a piece of paper, but rather than selective breeding is what consistently produces a certain "type" of horse - whether the desired type is hunter, jumper, eventer, dressage horse, etc. It is a lot easier to do selective breeding when you know the genotype of the horses involved.

To prove parentage, nothing beats DNA testing, which does not require registration. Indeed, papers are, IMO, not very useful without it given how easily they are lost, altered, or attached to the wrong horse.

I was, in fact, somewhat dismayed to find that some registries don't even require DNA testing or any other truly reliable verification of parentage or identity. When I inquired about this, the registry rep. replied "it is not our job to police the honesty of our members." If "policing" pedigrees to make sure they are accurate is not the registries' job, I, personally have no use for them, preferring to inspect, select and approve my horses on my own, with the help of people I have good reason to respect and trust. For me, registration will only become useful and meaningful when it constitutes a reliable identification system reliably linked to USEF performance records just as JC registration is tied to race results. As things stand, the only results WB registries are able to track reliably seem to be their own inspection tours which have yet to establish any relevance for those whose goals lie in other arenas.

[DownYonder]

Papers by themselves are not proof of a horse's identity. DNA is much more reliable.

Yes - but most of the Euro registries and some of the N.A. ones only issue registration papers after parentage has been verified via DNA analysis. Buyers of AHS registered horses, for instance, can feel pretty darned confident that the horses are who AHS says they are. When you buy something without registration papers, you have to rely on the seller's word of who the horse is, unless they happen to have a DNA report confirming the parentage. And even then, how do you know you can trust it 100%? It could be for ANY horse fitting the generic description.

As you said, most buyers of performance horses don't care about papers, or parentage. I think that is a shame, because we could make faster headway in tying pedigree to performance and vice-versa if everyone was on board with the concept.

[PineTreeFarm]

Yes - but most of the Euro registries and some of the N.A. ones only issue registration papers after parentage has been verified via DNA analysis. Buyers of AHS registered horses, for instance, can feel pretty darned confident that the horses are who AHS says they are. When you buy something without registration papers, you have to rely on the seller's word of who the horse is, unless they happen to have a DNA report confirming the parentage. And even then, how do you know you can trust it 100%? It could be for ANY horse fitting the generic description.

As you said, most buyers of performance horses don't care about papers, or parentage. I think that is a shame, because we could make faster headway in tying pedigree to performance and vice-versa if everyone was on board with the concept.

See Fish's post above.

In the examples I gave I mentioned the most common American Bred cross that shows up in the USEF Hunter lists. That is a WBxTB. In that example the identity of the sire and dam is known and often the sire is recorded with a WB registry. No problem with doing a DNA test on the offspring.

To record breeding stock with PHR a blood sample is required.

I think you either mis-read or misinterpreted what I said. I never said that parentage isn't important, I do feel that papers aren't all that exciting.
In fact, my example of horse A and B was meant to show that selective breeding was used in both cases, the only difference was a lack of papers for horse B. Same proveable bloodlines.

Another example. Many reputable TB trainers will not provide papers when they sell a horse off the track. Everybody knows who the horse is, he/she may have raced the day before. But the horse is still a TB and can still be ID'd though DNA. He/she doesn't become a non TB just because there are no papers. Still has a known pedigree.

[ise@ssl]

What's so BRAVO about this?

For many people breeding one or two horses there may or may not be any benefit.

And I love this sentence
"Registration handles the important issue of tracking horses, getting breeders and/or owners involved in a registry and horses eligible for all the different programs."

The first part of it is absolutely FALSE. The current system with the USEF allows people to get different number and NEW numbers for a horse at a cheaper price than transferring the horse which keeps all the information in the data base.

I believe in registering horses - I feel if you take the time and money to put an equine on this earth you should document it. But alot of the benefits he brags about aren't support by the various horse organizations.

I do agree - ONE HORSE - ONE NUMBER - FOR LIFE. If Scott Hassler can guarantee that the USDF, USEF, USEA AND EVERY ONE ELSE will guarantee that if the horse is registered - then and only then can I see these automatic benefits for registrations papers.

The current system facilitates people mis-representing horses, entering horses and leaving off information (MOST often the breeders name) and fabricating show careers. THIS HAPPENS FOR REGISTERED HORSES ALL THE TIME.

BRAVO would be to start a petition campaign to the various horse organizations to support the ONE NUMBER PER HORSE and provide access to all performance records for these horses and ponies.

[ahf]

"it is not our job to police the honesty of our members."

That is the worst, weakest argument I've ever heard. Lordy, Lordy, Lordy. I won't even begin to comment on an organization that doesn't care if it's members are dishonest or not.

I haven't read the article - it's sitting on my desk. But I can tell you that if Hassler didn't even mention the MUCH, MUCH more crucial need for a ULN.....sigh.

[ise@ssl]

The benefit to ALL disciplines would come from the ULN - which would track horses for life in ALL disciplines. That way any buyer or seller would have the DOCUMENTED performance records, breeding information readily available. This would help to make it much more difficult for people to fabricate career histories on horses and all ow BUYERS to see in WRITING what the horse has done.

Will there always be some crooks - sure! But the current system FACILITATES fraud.

And I feel it does fall within the responsibilities of the NGB - the USEF to police it's members for mis-representing horses - to state otherwise is ridiculous.

[sporthorsefilly]

Pinetree,

BOTH the PHR and the Jockey Club require DNA testing:

https://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?page=dotRegistryHelpDeskDNASampling&CFID=17787570&CFTOKEN=94162249


from: www.phr.com:

Should I DNA type my horse?
As equestrian sport forges on into the 21st century, using DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) to verify parentage and ensure the accuracy of pedigrees has become an important part of preserving bloodlines in the sport horse industry. DNA typing is similar to blood typing for parentage verifications, with the exception that DNA typing is much easier. Unlike blood typing, DNA typing does not require a veterinarian to collect a sample.

DNA is replicated and passed on to offspring. As a result, there are fewer than 1 in 10,000,000 errors in DNA samples recorded. The PHR uses the University of California at Davis for DNA typing, one of the foremost facilities used in the nation. UC-Davis is widely used by other breed registries for the same purpose.

Upon registration, the PHR will automatically send a DNA typing kit, complete with instructions. All that is required is to remove 50-60 mane hairs from the root and ship them, along with the provided form, to the lab at UC-Davis for testing. The results of the DNA typing are then sent directly to the PHR.

The PHR requires DNA typing for all breeding stock. This is common among breed registries around the world. If your horse is a gelding, or is under the age of two, DNA typing is not required. However, should you decline DNA typing and later decide to use the animal for breeding, the horse must be DNA typed in order to make the foal eligible for registration.

If your horse has been DNA tested through another registry, you are not required to test again. Simply supply the PHR with a copy of the results or the case number and name of the registry.

[DownYonder]

To prove parentage, nothing beats DNA testing, which does not require registration. Indeed, papers are, IMO, not very useful without it given how easily they are lost, altered, or attached to the wrong horse.

When was the last time you bought a horse and were provided with a copy of DNA results that proved the horse's identity? Did the DNA papers have a full description of the horse, including color, all markings, whorls, etc.? Besides, DNA results can be lost, altered, or attached to the wrong horse just as easily as registration papers.

I was, in fact, somewhat dismayed to find that some registries don't even require DNA testing or any other truly reliable verification of parentage or identity. When I inquired about this, the registry rep. replied "it is not our job to police the honesty of our members."

Yep, there are unfortunately registries out there that issue papers without doing parentage verification via DNA analysis. Too bad for buyers of those horses - they really don't know for sure that their new horse is REALLY who the seller says it is.

As things stand, the only results WB registries are able to track reliably seem to be their own inspection tours which have yet to establish any relevance for those whose goals lie in other arenas.

WB registries would be able to track their horses a lot better if all breeders and buyers DEMANDED a strong umbrella organization to gather performance data - whether it is USEF or some other organization.

[fish]

When was the last time you bought a horse and were provided with a copy of DNA results that proved the horse's identity? Did the DNA papers have a full description of the horse, including color, all markings, whorls, etc.? Besides, DNA results can be lost, altered, or attached to the wrong horse just as easily as registration papers.

WB registries would be able to track their horses a lot better if all breeders and buyers DEMANDED a strong umbrella organization to gather performance data - whether it is USEF or some other organization.

#1. Anyone can have a horse's DNA testing done and kept on file at Davis for future verification using a fresh sample, which is pretty much what would have to be done if we were to demand verification that registration papers or claims of pedigree on a registered horse with lost papers were legit.

#2. If we demanded and got "a strong umbrella organization" (like the USEF, for example) to gather performance data and link it to reliable ID's, that would be registration enough for me right there. It seems to me that the USEF is in fact headed in that direction-- what's lacking is reliability which can only come through mandatory participation in a one horse/one lifetime number i.d. system.

[sporthorsefilly]

#2. If we demanded and got "a strong umbrella organization" (like the USEF, for example) to gather performance data and link it to reliable ID's, that would be registration enough for me right there. It seems to me that the USEF is in fact headed in that direction-- what's lacking is reliability which can only come through mandatory participation in a one horse/one lifetime number i.d. system.

PHR does DNA and is linked to USEF performance data, and I agree one horse/one lifetime # would be great, if it can be enforced. The database would be able to match DNA duplicates.

[DownYonder]

#1. Anyone can have a horse's DNA testing done and kept on file at Davis...

Yes, if UC Davis has DNA on file for the horse's parents and you know the case numbers. You can't just send in DNA from your horse and ask them to find out who its parents are. They have to know who to use as cross-references, and it is my understanding that you have to supply the case numbers - not just names of the parents.

[ise@ssl]

Yes you do have to provide the case numbers.

I always wonder why the USEF is running a Horse Registry - i.e. the PHR. With all the horse registries out there it would seem that any horse would have somewhere to go to get papers. If it's a grade horse it wouldn't have papers. But the PHR (which we were involved with when it was with the Jockey Club) is like the fair haired child of the USEF - their "horses" are linked in and also have special awards. So weird that the NGB would run registration system when they can't even handle a horse ID system that works.

I still fee the US Department of Agriculture will spell the rules in the future. As we have more and more cross over of diseases from human to animal and between different species - especially when it might affect food production - we will have to microchip all of our animals. It will happen.

[tri]

Wouldn't you still have to have those case #s if the horse is registered with one of the euro registries? I know of several examples where warmbloods were sold with less than legit papers or no papers. I know of one particular situation where a horse changed hands, the new owners wanted the papers, the old owners refused, the new owner went to the registry, the registry said without permission from the old owners they wouldn't release any information. So the horse, branded, DNA on file, etc etc etc, does not have any papers anymore.

[DownYonder]

Wouldn't you still have to have those case #s if the horse is registered with one of the euro registries? I know of several examples where warmbloods were sold with less than legit papers or no papers. I know of one particular situation where a horse changed hands, the new owners wanted the papers, the old owners refused, the new owner went to the registry, the registry said without permission from the old owners they wouldn't release any information. So the horse, branded, DNA on file, etc etc etc, does not have any papers anymore.

Sure, if you didn't get the horse's registration papers and you were trying to prove parentage. And of course there are always going to be cases where horses are sold with less than legit papers or no papers. However, it makes positive identification much easier all the way around if you have registration papers from a registry that does parentage verification. Let's say a trainer is trying to sell a horse as - oh, how about a Rio Grande offspring. Part of the horse's price is based on who his sire is. If the trainer can produce registration papers from a registry that does parentage verification via DNA analysis, and the horse described in those papers matches the description of the horse the trainer is trying to sell, then doesn't that help reassure the buyer that they are in fact getting a Rio Grande offspring? OTOH, if there is nothing to PROVE that the horse is a Rio Grande offspring, how does the buyer know that is what she is really getting? And if she doesn't know for sure, then why is the horse marked up $10K-$20K-$30K based on its "parentage"?

[PineTreeFarm]

... However, it makes positive identification much easier all the way around if you have registration papers from a registry that does parentage verification. Let's say a trainer is trying to sell a horse as - oh, how about a Rio Grande offspring. Part of the horse's price is based on who his sire is. If the trainer can produce registration papers from a registry that does parentage verification via DNA analysis, and the horse described in those papers matches the description of the horse the trainer is trying to sell, then doesn't that help reassure the buyer that they are in fact getting a Rio Grande offspring? OTOH, if there is nothing to PROVE that the horse is a Rio Grande offspring, how does the buyer know that is what she is really getting? And if she doesn't know for sure, then why is the horse marked up $10K-$20K-$30K based on its "parentage"?

Papers that say the horse is a xyz offspring do not guarantee that the horse is as represented. DNA testing will solve that problem if there is a question.

2-3 years ago I was standing at ringside watching the end of an equitation class. Two horse show moms were holding their daughters 'WB' horses. The moms were doing the usual 'my horse is better than yours' thing. My horse is bigger, my horse is by X,my horse is by Y. One of the moms had a copy of the horses papers in her purse as the horse was for sale. As their discussion got more animated the horse in question yawned and rolled up his upper lip revealing a pretty clear tatoo. This person was positive her horse was by X but sadly, he was not. No matter how much this person believed it, no matter what the papers said, no matter what the seller said it just wasn't true. So if there is any question and you don't know the seller a DNA test would be in order. On the other hand, if the horse does the job you are buying it for who cares what it's pedigree is.
To make this clearer, if the horse can't jump the pedigree will add no value to the horse for performance purposes.

So DownYonder can I sell you a bridge?

[ahf]

Let me just state this right out front...I am a HUGE proponent of "one horse, one number, for life". Everything else that's being discussed here is pretty much bull. Because if we can't demand that there is someone there at each recognized show with a wand (and yes, that's what I think it comes down to) then we can't be sure who that horse is. Period. You can't get a freaking gate card at any racetrack in the US without a tattoo. It's just not that hard to do. Expensive? Yes. Hard? No.

I don't think the breeding programs in this country will get anywhere until this is done. That's why I am saddened, but not surprised, that this issue was not mentioned in Hassler's article. It's ignoring the obvious, IMO. And I think it's naive.

That said...I don't appreciate the bridge comment Pine Tree, and I'm not even who it's directed to.

What's more, speaking as an old TB person, YOU may not think that genetic make-up is important if that horse can't ribbon in the 4' division...and ALL you are looking at is an individual's performance...as a breeder I am VERY interested in who is the 2nd and third dam of that sporthorse. That may end up telling you volumes, if we can only identify the the bloodlines. This whole "I don't give a hoot about the individual in front of me except it's performance" is historically shortsighted. It takes DATA to discern the broodmares sires, and the Blue Hens, and the specific contributors of the traits you are trying to improve, and it frequently involves injections of a particular lineage. Run up to the Sporting Library or pick up a copy of Mackey-Smith's "Speed and the Thoroughbred" if you are dubious.

It's takes RESEARCH to breed, it takes vision, and a lot of times it takes an inner voice. Yes, breeding the best to the best helps, but if it were that simple we would all have Derby winners. There IS an alchemy to planning a mating...just read Tessio...who managed to identify a lot of that.

Dosage for sporthorses. that's what we need, and will never get, as long as a name change is an affidavit away.

[ASB Stars]

Nope- if he can't jump, he won't be selling to anyone who wants to jump. That is sure as shootin'. But why reduce things to the level of those who are attempting to slither at the lowest levels? :no:

Does particular breeding predispose a horse to particular characteristics? Yes, actually. Is it 100%? Well, no, not like death and taxes. But it beats the hell out of nothing, doesn't it?

Was the Green Monkey genetically designed to run like the devil? Sure. And he did, for a little while. He may sire horses who can- who knows? But, people who have been watchingthis a REALLY long time thought that the odds were great, and paid bodacious quantities of oil money for the opportunity to find out, with him in their name.

There is more evidence showing that studying bloodlines has some value than there is against the practice.

And yes, every once in awhile, Saggy and Joppy do get together, and produce Carry Back. But not very often.

And, by the way, the American Saddlebred Horse Association requires DNA testing to register a horse. But you guys already knew that. :winkgrin:

[PineTreeFarm]

Nope- if he can't jump, he won't be selling to anyone who wants to jump. That is sure as shootin'. But why reduce things to the level of those who are attempting to slither at the lowest levels? :no:

Does particular breeding predispose a horse to particular characteristics? Yes, actually. Is it 100%? Well, no, not like death and taxes. But it beats the hell out of nothing, doesn't it?

:winkgrin:

I'm not sure you comprehended anything I posted. No argument that bloodlines are important. I'm questioning the value of a piece of paper as ID or preventing a horse from going to slaughter and yes, I'm even questioning the facts in the article.

ahf
You certainly reacted oddly, hit a nerve did I?:)

[Equibrit]

When was the last time you bought a horse and were provided with a copy of DNA results that proved the horse's identity? Did the DNA papers have a full description of the horse, including color, all markings, whorls, etc.? Besides, DNA results can be lost, altered, or attached to the wrong horse just as easily as registration papers.


Horses come with blood and hair.

[buschkn]

I'm not sure I understand this. The horse's parents are listed as "unknown" on his KWPN registration papers? :confused:

Also, when I see DWB, I think Danish WB. I expect to see Dutch WBs listed as KWPN, NA/WPN, or NRPS.

OK, I was sleepy and mis-typed. What I meant was horse is listed as a Dutch WB, the USEF prob says KWPN, now that I think about it. What I mean is- the horse is reg/imported KWPN, he is even showing under his "real" name, however, with the USEF his parents are both listed as unknown.

My poorly articulated point was that no matter what, unless the person showing the horse gives a shi'ite about it's bloodlines and breeder, the system falls apart again and again. ULN and microchipping is probably the only real way to track pedigree and results reliably. But I think if the USEF said to show you all have to microchip your horses and have them scanned at every show/class there would be a riot of epic proportions.

Hopefully someday a better system will evolve. Why don't they have this problem in Europe? More people understand the value of bloodlines and purpose breeding? They don't care so much what the horse's "show name" is? Fewer crooks trying to pull a fast one? Curious.

[Equilibrium]

If anyone buys a horse from Europe in this day and age and papers (passport) are refused by old owner, they are breaking the law. Those passports are to go with the horse at all times and are not documention of who owns the horse.

And when refering to TB's, just to clarify. The Jockey Club is one of a many TB registries. When our TB's are registered over here, England and Ireland, it's with Weatherby's. German Jockey Club has it's own, Australia has it's own, ect. All these diffrent TB registries can track TB's around the world through databases. So maybe it wouldn't be too difficult to band the Warmblood registries together from everywhere. My DNA tested, microchipped, passported KWPN youngsters would be difficult to pass off as something else. They have a number, ect. And as far as naming goes. I think all horses should keep first registered name on all or any databases, but new owner should be allowed to show under any name they wish. As pointed out, new owner as spent a boat load of money on new horse and would like a name of their choice. Fine, fair enough, but for data base purposes registered name needs to be in the mix somewhere to allow the tracking system to work.

Terri

[Charmb]

Just a thought. Have any of you registered a tb? It is not cheap either with DNA and more etc. Also..I think the ULEN is the way to go, and I think the USEF, EC and all breed registries should be linked to it. USEF lifetime numbers..now that is interesting...do you buy lifetime..do you buy temporary..who the heck even thought of offering temporary? The trainer/rider..fills it out..and puts on thing. Example we had a Canadian Trakehner registered stallion being shown in the states, trainer bought temporary USEF number...only put trakehner..no dam, no sire. Your right...as the owner/breeder of this horse..I went..WHAT!! How do you promote the stallion if you don't put down his proper registry and his immediate parentage? And why buy temporary...the cost is so minimal for lifetime..and if the USEF, USDF, EC and all other sport governing bodies would share database of results..wouldn't that make eveyone happy...especially the breeders. I have a horse that disappeared in the US, although I heard he won an eventing award, the USEventing group didn't even reply to my inquiry. Sigh. And this was a horse that Nicole Uphoff thought was fabulous...oh well..disappointing as a breeder to not have physical proof of horse performance. As a buyer....not all facts and figures are there...as seller..why the heck wouldn't you want it for a higher dollar value on your horse to be had?
So..short...ULEN...DNA....and linked data bases...at least in NA.

[DownYonder]

Papers that say the horse is a xyz offspring do not guarantee that the horse is as represented. DNA testing will solve that problem if there is a question.

So you would rather prospective buyers all demand - and pay for - DNA analysis on each horse they look at? PPEs are already costly enough. Having to do parentage verification via DNA analysis would add another layer of expense and complexity to the process and make sales even HARDER for everyone involved. It sometimes takes WEEKS to get results back (depending on how busy the lab is). Not only that, but how many sellers are going to have access to the DNA case #s of the parents of the horse they are trying to sell? You are advocating a ridiculously cumbersome system. Don't tell me - as a prospective buyer - that part of the high price of a horse I am looking at is because it is a Rio Grande offspring, but I have to get DNA analysis done to prove it before paying the high asking price. No thanks, I'll pass on that horse and go find one that comes with paperwork confirming that the parentage verification has already been done.

2-3 years ago I was standing at ringside watching the end of an equitation class. Two horse show moms were holding their daughters 'WB' horses. The moms were doing the usual 'my horse is better than yours' thing. My horse is bigger, my horse is by X,my horse is by Y. One of the moms had a copy of the horses papers in her purse as the horse was for sale. As their discussion got more animated the horse in question yawned and rolled up his upper lip revealing a pretty clear tatoo. This person was positive her horse was by X but sadly, he was not. No matter how much this person believed it, no matter what the papers said, no matter what the seller said it just wasn't true. So if there is any question and you don't know the seller a DNA test would be in order. On the other hand, if the horse does the job you are buying it for who cares what it's pedigree is.
To make this clearer, if the horse can't jump the pedigree will add no value to the horse for performance purposes.

You know, there are always going to be instances like that. Sadly, scam artists abound in the horse world. And mistakes DO happen. A few years ago, we had two new imports get accidently swapped during shipping from NY. The shipper arrived at 3 AM and off-loaded a dark bay gelding w/star at one barn, then drove down the road a short distance and off-loaded another dark bay gelding w/star at a different barn. The excited new owners of one horse had crawled out of bed in the middle of the night and gone to the barn to meet "their" new horse and take photos. The next day, it was discovered that the horses got swapped. Guess how they were identified? Their papers and their brands identified them - one was registered as a Brandenburger while the other was registered as an Oldenburg. If they HADN'T been identified, there would have been a 7 y/o jumper out there owned by people who thought they had bought a 4 y/o dressage horse, and vice-versa.

Besides, no one is saying that papers or pedigree is more important than ability. But papers DO help identify the horse more frequently than not, and SOMEDAY there will be some sort of database that helps tie bloodlines to performance. The more information breeders have on what bloodlines are producing, the better our chances are of reproducing success. That helps EVERYONE - buyers, sellers, riders, trainers, etc., etc.

So DownYonder can I sell you a bridge?

The sad thing here is that *I* can see the big picture. I envision an industry where EVERYONE knows the value of a registration and pedigree / performance tracking system. You, on the other hand, prefer to advocate a system where this kind of info isn't readily available and where people are easily scammed on a daily basis by unscrupulous trainers, agents, etc. It boggles my mind that anyone would defend that type of system.

[DownYonder]

Horses come with blood and hair.

Everyone seems to think it is SO easy to do a DNA analysis. Again - you cannot use DNA analysis to do parentage verification without the DNA case #s of the horse's parents. Where do you think people are going to get that info? Do you think that EVERY seller will ALWAYS have that info readily available to give to prospective buyers? And how many buyers are going to take the time or spend the money to try to get it done? Not many - most will just say, "No thanks, I'll take the horse as is" (i.e., pay the big price the seller is asking for with no confirmation of identity, so the system is perpetuated), or they will go down the road and find a horse where they have reasonable assurance that parentage verification has already been done.

Sorry, but I am in a favor of a system that makes it harder for scammers to operate, not easier.

[pwynnnorman]

Everyone seems to agree that the ULN is the way to go. Unfortunately, there's no way it'll be enacted through registeries or associations. It's going to have to be legislated federally. If the same "whatever" that got the slaughter houses closed could be harnessed to get this issue before our legislators in DC, we might have a chance of seeing it happen before we're too old or too dead to care.

[ASB Stars]

I think it is really sad that the largest concern seems to be fraudulent representation. It speaks volumes about the horse world specifically, and the world in general, I suppose.

OK, I am not in favor, generally, of the whole system of allowing big brother to be able to locate my horses, for their own purposes, but I do think there is something to be said about microchipping a horse, upon registration, and dna confirmation, such that, in a sense, their "papers" really could help save them from slaughter. Being able to identify a horse for their lifetime is a wonderful thing.

Now, will someone find some way to do something crooked with that? Of course they will! Money makes dishonest people very creative.

But it is a thought- and, if you had the ability to "zap" a horse at a show to prove that they had competed, and could feed that information into a database, and then update with results, you might have something.

[sporthorsefilly]

Excellent posts Down Yonder! QUOTE:

"The sad thing here is that *I* can see the big picture. I envision an industry where EVERYONE knows the value of a registration and pedigree / performance tracking system. You, on the other hand, prefer to advocate a system where this kind of info isn't readily available and where people are easily scammed on a daily basis by unscrupulous trainers, agents, etc. It boggles my mind that anyone would defend that type of system. "

Breeders generally see the picture more clearly than those who stand ring side or just buy horses for resale.

[fish]

Excellent posts Down Yonder! QUOTE:


Breeders generally see the picture more clearly than those who stand ring side or just buy horses for resale.

I doubt very much that this is the case, it being quite natural for everyone to see best only that part of the picture which lies within the purview of their own moccasins. One doesn't have to spend much time on these boards to recognize the difficulties breeders have recognizing the point of view of some of their own markets, or that breeders involved in the WB registry system have in understanding perspective of those who breed outside it, etc., etc.. IMO, discussion has, over the years, done a great deal to help us understand each other, but such understanding is hindered more than aided by presumptions that any one group "see(s) the picture more clearly" than others. This is, IMHO, particularly true when one group's role is minimized by a modifier like "just." I submit that the perspective and horsemanship of those buying horses for resale can be just as broad and clear as that of breeders, although they will also be quite different.

[AdAblurr02]

I know this may be further than some breeders wish to go, but I try to do "my part" in keeping track of the horses I produce.

I register them as soon after birth as possible in my designated registry, and I also have them lifetime registered in both the USEF and USDF. If you apply for the lifetime registration before the animal is one year of age, the fees are considerably less. This way the paperwork is in place for myself, or future owners of the horse if it is sold.

Hallelujah.

And here I thought I was the only one doing that! Kudos to you, carnivalhill!

It is relatively cheap when you record as a foal - I register with the breed registry, then as soon as I have proof of age (registration certificate) I send in apps for USEF/USDF. Since we often do show our foals in hand, having their numbers all set to go helps there.

OF course, if some yahoo down the line decides to up and stick another name and USEF number on a horse, not much I can do on that issue, unless I actually see the horse that I bred under a completely different identity! I'm still trying to find a couple of them we bred, to see how they are doing - both had their names changed before I lost track after they went to different states. Sure hope they are doing OK :(

[not again]

All of our stock is registered with their birth registry, which requires DNA, gets a lifetime recording with USEF and USDF before one year of age. When sold all the paperwork (including health and vaccination records) goes with the horse, along with a one year membership for the new owner with the registry to be eligible for year end awards. We still have had a lot of horses disappear through the cracks on forty five years of breeding.:no: Recently one of our clients sold her gelding through a local dealer who refused to acknowledge his registry, nation of birth, actual age or ancestry. I assume the money given to the seller was quite different from the actual price the buyer paid. What is the incentive for a dealer to avoid fraud in such a transaction if there are no penalties?

[Equibrit]

Yes, if UC Davis has DNA on file for the horse's parents and you know the case numbers. You can't just send in DNA from your horse and ask them to find out who its parents are. They have to know who to use as cross-references, and it is my understanding that you have to supply the case numbers - not just names of the parents.


That is true - but you don't need a registry to accomplish this. One would imagine that if you bred the horse you would have access to case numbers. It is easy. Proof of parentage CAN be provided with youngsters WITHOUT the benefit of registries. By forcing the membership to obtain DNA testing through a given registry, they can then lay claim to case numbers. That way they keep their hands on all that registration/approval money.

[DownYonder]

That is true - but you don't need a registry to accomplish this. One would imagine that if you bred the horse you would have access to case numbers. It is easy. Proof of parentage CAN be provided with youngsters WITHOUT the benefit of registries. By forcing the membership to obtain DNA testing through a given registry, they can then lay claim to case numbers. That way they keep their hands on all that registration/approval money.

How do you get the case #s of the parents?

[Equibrit]

I get the case number of the stallion from his owner and the mare from her owner......me! Simple.
You don't have to go through a registry to get a case #. I then have a foal I can prove the parentage for, without being "registered".

[ahf]

ahf
You certainly reacted oddly, hit a nerve did I?:)

I don't have blinkers on. I see a lot of value with what you, and Fish, frequently bring to the discussion, though I frequently do not agree on all points.

The only nerve you hit was your unfortunate propensity to take a well-thought-out post and add the cheap shot at the end. Nothing hits a nerve like a sneer. My nerves, at least.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I unfortunatley do not believe for one second that even if we have a federally mandated number that a horse will keep for a lifetime, that the USEF will actually use it. I believe we will still need to apply pressure to demand that a horse's show records are tied to that lifetime number. Then we have to get them to actually record all show information on EVERY horse shown, and in every class/division.

Why wait another decade for the US government to push a number to find out that is does nothing for the show records?

DNA case numbers should belong to the horse's owner, and not be able to be held for ransom by a breed registry. As long as these unscrupulous practices exist, pay Davis the $40 for DNA on your own horse, and give any registry that needs it the case number. I can't believe a registry will not tell you a case number for your own horse. That makes me SO angry.

I personally have not done DNA thru the Dutch, but in speaking with them, they were pretty astounded that another registry wouldn't release a case number to me, so I assume they will. They use to send a copy of the blood typing to you for $2. The AWS will give you the case number for your horse. Yea Dutch and AWS!

How about your registries? Call them and ask for your horse's DNA case number.

[DownYonder]

I get the case number of the stallion from his owner and the mare from her owner......me! Simple.
You don't have to go through a registry to get a case #. I then have a foal I can prove the parentage for, without being "registered".

Does your DNA report include a full description of the horse - color, markings (with drawings), whorls, etc.?

[Equibrit]

It doesn't need to - he carries his own blood/hair.

[DownYonder]

But if I am buying that foal from you, how do I know for sure that the DNA report you show me is really for that foal? Not saying *you* would be unscrupulous, but there are plenty of people who wouldn't hesitate to wave a DNA report for a "dark bay filly by Rio Grande" under my nose, but then foist off a dark bay filly by the local yokel stallion. Without a full description on the DNA report, I have no way of making a positive ID on the horse short of running DNA myself.

Again - no thanks. I will go down the road and buy from someone who can provide me with a better method of positive ID.

[Fairview Horse Center]

A DNA report is only valid IF the purchaser pulls hair again to MATCH the DNA. Otherwise it can just be 2 similar looking horses, and THOSE kind of swaps have been going on for centuries.

That dark bay filly could be by Rio Grande, or the QH from down the street. Just because someone waves a registration paper with DNA attached does not mean it is the same horse. You HAVE to pull DNA again to make that "positive ID". If you DO that, it will not matter if there is a description attached. DNA is DNA.

[Equibrit]

It is a more accurate way to prove parentage. It's not beyond the means of the average horse buyer to get a DNA report, when compared to all the charges involved with "registration". How much trouble is it to pull hair? Should this become the primary way to identify horses, then I'm sure UC Davis or any other lab could come up with reasonably priced DNA "match" services.

[ASB Stars]

OK, lemme try again. Let's say you got your horse registered, by your registry of choice, or default, and, in that process, were also required to DNA the horse.

Now, we KNOW at that moment who the horsie is- right?:yes:

And then, you have a process to microchip said horsie, so that we now know, forever, that this is THAT horsie.

And then, you have one of those nifty identifier thingees at competitions, and they verify that horsie is indeed there, and also, in this delightful scenario, can ultimately upload the show results for horsie.

Doesn't this create an actual record?

There are a bunch of great reasons to microchip your horsie, in any event.

So this is a BAD idea why?

[fish]

It is a more accurate way to prove parentage. It's not beyond the means of the average horse buyer to get a DNA report, when compared to all the charges involved with "registration". How much trouble is it to pull hair? Should this become the primary way to identify horses, then I'm sure UC Davis or any other lab could come up with reasonably priced DNA "match" services.

I don't know about prices, but don't they already do forensic matching for law enforcement cases involving animal DNA samples?

[Equibrit]

It costs $40 at UC Davis for parent verification; http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse.php

[Fairview Horse Center]

Yep, 40 bucks. Think about how much more some of these registries are charging for the same service that THEY get for $40. and then won't let you access it when you need to.

[DownYonder]

Once again - registration papers from many registries contain a pretty accurate description of the horse, including markings and whorls. That makes it pretty easy to do an "at a glance" ID.

Also - once again - how many buyers are going to want to wait for DNA results? It sometimes takes WEEKS to get this information, esp. when UC Davis is backed processing DNA samples from the various registry inspection tours.

So I stand by my comments. I will go down the road and buy a horse that comes with papers that help me make a positive ID on the horse.

[tri]

Regarding mirochipping and those "reader thingies" at shows - the technology is not standardized yet so not all "reader thingies" will read all chips. Now, go ask on the hunter/jumper forums if competitors want yet ANOTHER fee to be charged to them to have the "reader thingies" installed at all recognized shows all so breeders can get their recognition. I think you will find a resounding NOOOOOOOOOOOO from everyone.....and they vastly outnumber breeders both in numbers and money spent.

[imapepper]

So, in the case of the brilliant lady who bred the amazing Teddy, and anyone seeking a horse bred to have the jump and quality to be a hunter, or just plain jump, and be a jumper, you really do not think that knowing how they are bred- in the short, or long term makes a difference?

If this is the case, you ought to stop advertising the relationship between horses, because, I mean, what the heck- can you prove it? And who cares?

But where can those horses be registered? PHR? Because they are part TB? And how easy is it to track horses that are registered there?

[tri]

EXACTLY! Teddy wouldn't have been welcome in most registries especially not the wb euro registries but, make no mistake, the breeder knows exactly how Teddy is bred.

[not again]

One of the most important lessons in breeding is to create a paper trail for your horses. Since I have been at this since the dark ages, I can only beg people to develop a pedigree chart for each and every horse you bring in to this world.
If your successors have to rely on a bunch of scraps in the kitchen drawer to identify your foals who represent years of thought and investment, not the least of which is financial, your lifetime of creating wonderful athletes will be for naught. Who will know the plain brown filly is THE ONE you have been hoping for.
All registries have financial outlays; being part of one is not free. Children need a birth certificate and a social security number. SO DO YOUR FOALS.

Okay. Off my soapbox. Now I feel better.;)

[ASB Stars]

GREAT post, Not Again- I agree completely!

As I mentioned before- you have to start somewhere, so, across the board all breed registries, and even horses who are not registered, who want to have their records kept, need to be microchipped- with ONE type- so you can use ONE reader.

Is it a pain to start with- sure. But if the government gets their way, we'll be chipping them anyway, so why not make a use for it that suits our purposes more than theirs?

[tri]

with ONE type- so you can use ONE reader.

Which one?

[Thalia4Welsh]

Actual breed registries are FAR LESS expensive. And some have registration for half or part blooded foals within their registry. USEF is helping us a great deal in the recognition/tracking process also - foals up to Nov 30 of their birth year can be recorded for $35. Their Leading Sire listings for the breeds and disciplines they represent are also useful to other breeders and to owners/exhibitors.
My area of expertise is pony hunters and there are definite breeding patterns shown in that field through the USEF lists. Those give prospective breeders and owners a step ahead in achieving their particular goals - some years ago in his COTH column, Denny Emerson said, "Pedigree predicts performance."
Rather disturbing to see in the current COTH poll that the unregistered animals exceed the registered almost 4 to 1.
The Germans and other European nations have supported their registries for decades - and where are many US buyers going for their next performers? Although European statistics are primarily for jumpers and dressage, they are scooping up our hunter business as well. It really is time that we better promoted our good domestic products - and recorded bloodlines are one step in that process! Listen to Scott and Denny and those who are at the top in their fields - they know!

Did he mention how much it costs to register said foals?

Just an example of charges;

American Warmblood Registry
P.O. Box 197 Carter MT 59420
Phone (406) 734 5499 Fax (775) 667 0516 amerwarmblood@aol.com www.americanwarmblood.com
2008 FEE SCHEDULE REGISTRATION FEES:
Stallions $ 350.00▪▪
Foreign Registration Administration $ 195.00
Mares/ Geldings $ 175.00 Foals less than four weeks of age $ 150.00 #
Foals over four weeks (but under 10 months) $ 175.00 #
DNA typing $ 100.00 DNA typing (Multiple kits) $ 75.00
Bloodtyping (Pricing good through June 2007) $ 170.00
Reading of non-AWR DNA-cases $ 45.00▪

MISCELLANEOUS FEES:
Annual Membership (Non-members pay double fees)
Membership AWR $ 75.00
Lifetime Membership AWR $ 800.00
Registration Certificate Changes $ 35.00
Ownership Transfer within 3 months of date of sale $ 35.00
Ownership Transfer within 6 months to twelve months of date of sale $ 85.00
Ownership Transfer after twelve months of date of sale $ 150.00
Registration Certificate Replacement $ 250.00 *
Annual Stallion Breeding Permit $ 250.00
Parentage Verification Report $ 160.00
Breeding Reports - Late fee, per month late $ 100.00
Foreign breeding transfer fee (per breeding) $ 200.00
Add photo to online stallion roster $ 45.00 AWR Jacket $ 65.00** (XL & XXL $80)
AWR Fleece Pullover $ 55.00**
AWR Hooded Sweatshirt $ 35.00**
AWR Polo Shirts –navy blue $ 30.00** AWR Baseball cap $ 15.00**
AWR Logo Bumper Sticker $ 1.00
AWR Saddlepad Dressage/Jumper $ 75.00**
Plus shipping fee (Priority Mail) one item (See merchandise order form)

INSPECTION FEES:
Stallion pre-inspection –Conformation & Triangle & Liberty $ 500.00 ##
Stallion Performance Test $ 500.00 ##
Mare or Gelding Grading $ 100.00 ##
Mare/ Gelding Performance Test* $ 300.00 ##
Youngstock Grading- Conformation & On Triangle $ 100.00 ##
Foal Inspection N/C ## Branding of adult horses (pending approval from office) $ 350.00
Site Host Fee $ 900.00


Just add up ALL the charges that are required to get a foal registered (mare registration, membership DNA typing for both, and inspections) and then decide if it's worth it.

[tri]

#1 problem; U.S. warmblood breeders for the most part don't support U.S. registries - they support foreign controlled registries who have NO interest in making tracking in the U.S possible. The europeans already have a system so they really don't want to spend their resources trying to make it happen here.....and tracking in the U.S. would take away focus on foreign stallion semen sales, riding horse sales, mare/foal sales that ARE tracked over there. It would be a lose/lose situation for the euro wb registries to support tracking here - they would lose one of the many edges they have over us.

[Centerline Farm]

Quite honestly Tri, Europe, meaning Germany, Holland, France, UK, etc. have bigger fish to fry than wondering what NA is doing. We are a very, very small percentage of sales and income for them. Very small. And certainly not the best advertising for performance horses considering the very few that actually make it to the big times from here.

I agree that there is no reason why Europe should help us get it together. I breed reistered purebred dogs and we ahve to put an Internationally standard and recognized microchip in all my pups. It is indeed becoming standardized in every country but the US for dogs anyways. Whenever I import a dog from the US I am never certain which chip is in the dog, if any. The AKC does not require chipping either, and there is no requirement. A big mistake. The US has a real issue with standardizing things - I am not certain why, but it is a big pain in the butt.

[Oakstable]

If the lobbyists could figure out how to make money off it, it would happen.

[tri]

Centerline, I beg to differ with you BUT, the Europeans are EXTREMELY intent on the breeders here in the U.S and I'll tell you why -VOTING RIGHTS. The voting rights in the WBFSH are based on the number of members in the studbook - the more members, the more voting rights. Selling their horses here, getting breeders to be members is vastly important to them.

In addition, some of the highest ranked riders in the world are U.S. riders. They buy expensive riding horses and the europeans track those horses and advertise our own top pro/olympic riders as riding those horses. They would be none too happy if a high percentage of the top riders in the world were NOT riding their horses.

[not again]

Case in point:
Has anyone come across any other news reports about this?
http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/cg...013/001346.htm

[MagicRoseFarm]

Not to mention, that the monies given to foreign registries,, are placed in that foreign registry's budget, part of which is used to promote and market horses from within the registry, however not the US bred /foreign registered horses.

[siegi b.]

I don't know where this started, but tri is certainly doing her part ot keep this myth going..... Most of the European registries I know have a licensing agreement with their US counterparts which prevents "all this money flowing into European coffers".

The comment by tri "In addition, some of the highest ranked riders in the world are U.S. riders. They buy expensive riding horses and the europeans track those horses and advertise our own top pro/olympic riders as riding those horses." borders on the ridiculous and gets added to the myths spread by folks that for some reason have an axe to grind with European registries.

It is important to have papers for your horses for several reasons, and the sooner we can get that done, the better. Breeders want recognition for their efforts, as do riders and owners, and the only way that is going to happen is through registration of the horses. As much as tri hates the European registries, they are in fact doing quite a good job of providing such registration and recognition.

Ok tri, time for your outburst... :-)

[tri]

No outburst here, I just think, to be nice, you are very very naive. You really think that it is a myth that our top U.S. pro riders are riding european imports? If they aren't, what are they riding? And, the europeans do use ALL the horses competing at top levels in their advertising but you think they don't? Hmmm, easy to verify: how about the imported BWP stallion Ublesco by Darco just named to the Pan Am show jumping team announced right in the BWP newsletter?

BTW, the BWP is the BWP whether it is here or in Belgium.

Here is some American riders that your favorite studbook is heralding all riding Dutch imported horses: " Authentic (Guidam x Gerlinda /Katell xx, breeder gebr. Morsink) and Beezie Madden performed incredible in the opening 1.50m-class. Authentic jumped powerfully to his victory in the ‘Pasmore Stables Horsemans’ Cup. KWPN horses dominated also in other classes. The 1.45m-class was captured by Kent Farrington and Nerina (Amaretto x Jerina ster pref prest /Purioso, breeder T. Ploegmakers)."

I could go on all day. The europeans love it that top american riders are riding their horses as they should be. But they wouldn't be too happy if it all changed!!

[siegi b.]

Tri - you twist any argument to suit your purpose, so I'm not even going to try to sort this out. Suffice it to say that you should use some of the time you spend complaining and breed horses that can make it to the top levels of the sport. Actions ALWAYS speak louder than words and that's where you're definitely lacking. :-)

[Centerline Farm]

Centerline, I beg to differ with you BUT, the Europeans are EXTREMELY intent on the breeders here in the U.S and I'll tell you why -VOTING RIGHTS. The voting rights in the WBFSH are based on the number of members in the studbook - the more members, the more voting rights. Selling their horses here, getting breeders to be members is vastly important to them.

In addition, some of the highest ranked riders in the world are U.S. riders. They buy expensive riding horses and the europeans track those horses and advertise our own top pro/olympic riders as riding those horses. They would be none too happy if a high percentage of the top riders in the world were NOT riding their horses.

I don't think you understand what I was trying to get at.

My point is that NA is a VERY small fish in the big huge pond. We are their smallest consumers. The amount of top riders we have are infintesimal compared to them. The amount of horses and semen we import are tiny tiny compared to what they produce and sell.

All I am saying is that Europe has no real interest in supporting or sabotaging the NA market. Believe it or not, NA is NOT the biggest fish in the pond...

And if anything Europe has been and continues to be very helpful in developing our own little world over here... So we need to get OUT of our own little world and be part of the collective.

I think perhaps maybe the US has always been the leader in so many things, it is very difficult to conceptualize, compromise and participate when they are not.
I dunno, just a thought. :D

[Oakstable]

Excellent point, Centerline. Americans can be America-centric.

Even the US president, GWB, had never traveled outside the borders until he moved into the White House.

Sadly, decisions made by this administration in the last 7 years have us in endless war financed by loans from other countries, meanwhile giving the wealthiest of Americans tax cuts.

We ain't seen nuthin' yet. We will be haunted by these bone-headed errors for years to come.

I sincerely doubt that the European studbooks are spending much time thinking about how to exploit the American market. (I'll leave Canada out of my remarks.)

[DownYonder]

Hmm, my husband's and my net worth have more than tripled during the Bush Administration and we are FAR from being in "the wealthiest Americans" bracket. :lol: I am actually really dreading seeing the Bush tax cuts come to an end - we already pay a TON of taxes as it is. :mad:

But to get this thread back on topic - AHS is one of the Euro-style registries that Tri likes to rant about, but I doubt there is much money going back to Germany from AHS coffers. That is probably also the case with AHHA. I don't know how KWPN-NA handles its funds, but it could be the same. Oldenburg (GOV) does send all income from membership dues and inspection/registration fees to Germany, but the registry also spends a ton of money to support the N.A. inspection tours, issue registration passports to N.A. bred horses, operate an office here, etc. So while, yes,there is money flowing back to Europe in some cases, N.A. breeders are still getting lots of benefits from it. :D

[tri]

Just a note, I am not the one talking about the money going back to europe from the euro-controlled registries, I am the one who is talking about the MARKETING of successful european bred horses that U.S. top riders are riding on an int'l level.

Also, I am also one that has significantly prospered under the Bush administration and we pay a ton in taxes. Look, Oakstable, answer me this: How can people who pay NO taxes - as in lower income people pay NO taxes - get a tax cut????? Only people who actually PAY taxes can get a tax cut and when the system is set up that upper income people pay 90% of all taxes paid, who else could get the cut??? When you don't pay taxes, what the freak is there to cut??? And YOUR solution is that we elect one of the democrats who have both pledged to raise taxes in ALL tax brackets, yeah that will be soooo much better.... geez.


and breed horses that can make it to the top levels of the sport. Actions ALWAYS speak louder than words

Uhmmm, siegi, dear, I already have. Have you?

[Centerline Farm]

Just a note, I am not the one talking about the money going back to europe from the euro-controlled registries, I am the one who is talking about the MARKETING of successful european bred horses that U.S. top riders are riding on an int'l level.

Also, I am also one that has significantly prospered under the Bush administration and we pay a ton in taxes. Look, Oakstable, answer me this: How can people who pay NO taxes - as in lower income people pay NO taxes - get a tax cut????? Only people who actually PAY taxes can get a tax cut and when the system is set up that upper income people pay 90% of all taxes paid, who else could get the cut??? When you don't pay taxes, what the freak is there to cut??? And YOUR solution is that we elect one of the democrats who have both pledged to raise taxes in ALL tax brackets, yeah that will be soooo much better.... geez.


?


Well, even though this is completely off topic, I have to mention this very simple fact.... You gotta pay for the 'War on Terror' somehow, don't ya???

Current cost, $512 billion and counting... it is growing by $200 million PER DAY. And final tab is just now estimated to be over $1.2 trillion.

References
http://zfacts.com/p/447.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11880954/


And a really good article here
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/17/business/17leonhardt.html

And the best article here...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/16/AR2007111600865.html

and a really fun Guess the Cost game here...
http://www.aei-brookings.org/iraqcosts/

Our children, grandchildren, and their children also will be paying for a very, very long time...

But this is all off topic, so I will say no more about it.

[3Dogs]

my my - this has veered off topic.

Centerline - bravo!

[siegi b.]

"Uhmmm, siegi, dear, I already have. Have you? "

Tri - oh, you have? Well, let's hear some names, why don't we..... :-) I will only be too happy to follow suit. :-)

P. S.: Centerline - great post!

[tri]

So, Centerline, you want to raise taxes on everybody, reinstate the death tax so no one can hand down their farms or family businesses and have your bank account garnished to pay forced health insurance premiums? Yep, I'll take fighting a war against terrorists instead of that crap any day of the week. I can be proud of allowing those suppressed women to vote for the first time in history but I can't be proud to be the generation that turns America into a socialist country. And Obama's minister's comments to G.D. America and his other comments, how can you support that? I'd have more respect for you if you complained about Bush passing the biggest welfare program in America's history - talk about how much that has cost, won't you!? But I still wouldn't trade it for a socialist America. Rome fell because people realized that they could vote themselves other people's money & property - sounds a lot like what you are advocating.

[Centerline Farm]

So, Centerline, you want to raise taxes on everybody, reinstate the death tax so no one can hand down their farms or family businesses and have your bank account garnished to pay forced health insurance premiums? Yep, I'll take fighting a war against terrorists instead of that crap any day of the week. I can be proud of allowing those suppressed women to vote for the first time in history but I can't be proud to be the generation that turns America into a socialist country. And Obama's minister's comments to G.D. America and his other comments, how can you support that? I'd have more respect for you if you complained about Bush passing the biggest welfare program in America's history - talk about how much that has cost, won't you!? But I still wouldn't trade it for a socialist America. Rome fell because people realized that they could vote themselves other people's money & property - sounds a lot like what you are advocating.

Oh wow.

There are so many things wrong with this post I cannot even begin.
And as it is off topic I shouldn't.

However, it is a sad commentary of the education system that it produces such ignorance.

:no::no::no:

(And for the record I was not making a political comment, rather an economic comment. However much people may wail and cry, numbers are numbers and above the political muck line.)

[talloaks]

Centerline, you live in BC Canada so why are you telling the Americans how they should be running their country??? Tell us about your high taxes, socialized medicine etc!

[Centerline Farm]

Centerline, you live in BC Canada so why are you telling the Americans how they should be running their country??? Tell us about your high taxes, socialized medicine etc!

Actually, I am American, Talloaks. California born and bred. I am as American as you are!! Do you want to arm-wrestle over who is mostest Americano?? :lol:

And even if I were not, I can certainly have an opinion, can't I?? Are Americans the only ones who can tell other countries what to do?? :confused::confused:

If this were not a horse thread, I could tell you about the taxes (which are almost the same rate as the US), and how Canada spends less than half per capita than the US does for superior medical service (I am a nurse so I am involved with the system every day here, and everything is FREE FREE FREE), how the US spends more per capita than any other country in the world yet is ranked at only #37. ABout how the US was a glorious, strong, proud country that the rest of the world looked up to and loved, but now slinks around like a junk-yard dog ready to bite anyon who comes near.

But this is completely off topic, so I had better not. :winkgrin:

[Touchstone Farm]

sigei, I have a feeling Tri will dodge your question (as already done once since you posed the question). I won't hold my breath, but I'm also curious to find out about Tri's breeding success at the top levels of the sport.

And, if I was from Europe or Timbuktu and had bred horses that Americans were competing successfully at top levels internationally, I'd be marketing/promoting that success BIG time. Why wouldn't you? Heck, if the Queen of England competed on one of my horses successfully, I'd be "marketing" that. Why is marketing the competitive success of horses one has sold sold so bad, Tri? That's called making a living.

[Touchstone Farm]

sigei, I have a feeling Tri will dodge your question (as already done once since you posed the question). I won't hold my breath, but I'm also curious to find out about Tri's breeding success at the top levels of the sport.

And, if I was from Europe or Timbuktu and had bred horses that Americans were competing successfully at top levels internationally, I'd be marketing/promoting that success BIG time. Why wouldn't you? Heck, if the Queen of England competed on one of my horses successfully, I'd be "marketing" that. Why is marketing the competitive success of horses one has sold so bad, Tri? That's called making a living.

[Albion]

How can people who pay NO taxes - as in lower income people pay NO taxes - get a tax cut?????

Just FYI, my taxable income for 2007 was below poverty line (is that low income enough for you?) and I owed the government nearly 1K before deductions. Suck it up, man. I'm a broke grad student and the government is after my income - why shouldn't yours be fair game, too? High income people have plenty of ways to shelter income - it's hard for me to shelter enough of mine to make a huge dent, because I actually need it to live on.

[DownYonder]

So, Centerline, you want to raise taxes on everybody, reinstate the death tax so no one can hand down their farms or family businesses and have your bank account garnished to pay forced health insurance premiums? Yep, I'll take fighting a war against terrorists instead of that crap any day of the week. I can be proud of allowing those suppressed women to vote for the first time in history but I can't be proud to be the generation that turns America into a socialist country. And Obama's minister's comments to G.D. America and his other comments, how can you support that? I'd have more respect for you if you complained about Bush passing the biggest welfare program in America's history - talk about how much that has cost, won't you!? But I still wouldn't trade it for a socialist America. Rome fell because people realized that they could vote themselves other people's money & property - sounds a lot like what you are advocating.

My god, Tri. We AGREE on something! LOL! :lol:

[DownYonder]

If this were not a horse thread, I could tell you about the taxes (which are almost the same rate as the US), and how Canada spends less than half per capita than the US does for superior medical service (I am a nurse so I am involved with the system every day here, and everything is FREE FREE FREE)

SUPERIOR medical care? You have got be kidding. Well, maybe for the fortunate few who manage to make it to the head of the line at the medical facilities.

[DownYonder]

Just FYI, my taxable income for 2007 was below poverty line (is that low income enough for you?) and I owed the government nearly 1K before deductions. Suck it up, man. I'm a broke grad student and the government is after my income - why shouldn't yours be fair game, too? High income people have plenty of ways to shelter income - it's hard for me to shelter enough of mine to make a huge dent, because I actually need it to live on.

When I was a broke college student, I lived below povery level, too. And I still had to pay income taxes. But I didn't try to support horses while I was doing it, because I knew I had no business owning what is basically a luxury itme. I have no problem paying my fair share of taxes, but unfortunately there is a growing class of people in this country who seem to think that anyone that makes more money than they do should be taxed until their level of living income is on par with everyone else's. That is called redistribution of wealth and is a fundamental principle of a socialist nation. I see America heading more and more down that path. Tri's comment about how Rome fell is right on.

[ASB Stars]

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programing...

The numbers I head this weekend were as follows:

Number of horses bred across all German registries, per year- about 50K

Number of foals bred in Holland, per year- 12K

Number of foals being bred in the US- of warmblood descent- 5K

I read somewhere, recently, that all of the horses bred in the EU will be required to be micrchipped in 2009- anyone else heard anything about this?

[siegi b.]

ASB - they've already started to micro-chip horses in Holland. It's only a question of time before it will be mandatory here. And it's really not a question of "different makes and models" as tri likes to argue, there's a standard for it and we've already implemented it with dogs and cats in the US.

Also, if you look at the registration numbers assigned to US horses that are part of the European studbooks you will notice that they're already following the universal ID system which will make the transition to micro chips very easy.

[ASB Stars]

Thanks siegi!

It is so much nicer when things are simple, isn't it!

[PineTreeFarm]

ASB - they've already started to micro-chip horses in Holland. It's only a question of time before it will be mandatory here. And it's really not a question of "different makes and models" as tri likes to argue, there's a standard for it and we've already implemented it with dogs and cats in the US.


What RFID standard is used in EU countries and is it the same as the NAIS
standard?

[Tomi]

I am a shy lurker, but I would like to know if anyone has researched what effect the microchip has on the environment? How are microchips disposed of when a horse dies?
Tomi

[Moderator 1]

Off-topic day was yesterday in its own forum. ;)

Thanks for bringing the thread back to horses. :yes:

[tri]

And it's really not a question of "different makes and models" as tri likes to argue,

Uhhmm. Actually yes that has been one of the top reasons for why it hasn't already been done....as has been explained to you by other posters as well. Technology does advance and there might one day be standardization. But that doesn't solve the problem of requiring all recognized horse show venues to put in the equipment it takes to use it...which is the other major hurdle.

there's a standard for it and we've already implemented it with dogs and cats in the US.

Did you not read the post that discussed how it is NOT standardized with europe???

As far as my own horses, I've already talked about my jumpers and my mare line of which all have made it to at least GP and my foundation mare which jumped at the int'l level.