Equicast Update

[irishcas]

Hi All:

In a previous post I mentioned I was starting to research the usefulness of the Equicast material created by Dave at Equicast.

I and my AHA colleagues are trying a variety of different applications. I will speak for myself based on what we have discovered so far. I thought you all might be interested. KC LaPierre stole the idea from Dave and is trying to patent his Perfect Hoof something or other. It's basically Dave's casting material plus some pads, glue and gosh knows what.

It isn't that complicated but I would still leave it to the more technically savvy for now :)

I think it works best on the foundered, thin soled and flat footed horses. Some need padding under the cast and others just need the cast.

I've been using the 10 horses at my farm as case studies and am experimenting using Durasole, CS, Miracle Cushion, 100% silicone, Comfort Pads and nothing under the casts. I'm documenting all the different applications and am intrigued by what I'm finding. Pete and Gil are playing with it too, although I think Gil is using it the most.

I put it on a flat footed, sunken CB horse 10 days ago and took the casts off yesterday. The horse had concavity for the first time since I pulled his shoes.

There are some issues though and I'm still testing to see what results I get.

I wanted to share a brief written note about it and plan on putting up detailed notes and photos in the near future.

If you want more info, PM or email me. Soon I'll have info on my site, but I want to be thorough :)

The initial thoughts though are that we (the AHA) all like it!

Regards,

[Appassionato]

I do find the product interesting, but I'm not so sure I would have used it on my guy. Not a discredit to the product, just that I think more problems would have been created at that time than solved. Definately something for the toolbox for the farrier/trimmer that understands its application though!

[irishcas]

Interesting AP,

While I don't agree or disagree with you, I'm curious to hear what problems you think would have been caused by this product.

I think it is important to share info, Obviously. :D

Regards,

[Auventera Two]

Kim,

Since you and I talked, I talked with KC regarding the Equicast/Perfect Hoof Differences. He said that the Equicast is fiberglass, and the Perfect Hoof Wear is not. But I can't remember what it is right now??? Maybe it's on their website. The PHW is a softer material that is permeable, unlike fiberglass. It still allows the hoof to flex and doesn't quite "cast" the foot like Equicast does. In other words, it's more flexible, with more open pores.

Also, he said that when you set the foot down on the pad that comes in the package, the material of the pad sucks out a portion of the resin from the wrap, leaving the pores open. When you put the foot in kitty litter, like you and I were talking about, the holes are plugged with the litter.

So in effect even though the products look similiar in application and appearance, the fundamental differences and purposes of both are not quite as similar. KC's wrap is intended to provide stimulus to the sensitive structures for proper growth, while the Equicast system is more rigid. I believe with KC's wrap, he got the patent because it is a totally different material than the fiberglass and the set product feels different and moves differently.

So, for what it's worth, I have no direct knowledge of either product and no opinion. Boots work for me, and I'll probably just stick with that for my own personal reasons. I still agree with you that it seems there's some animosity there betwix the two. :lol: Just passing on the conversation. :)

[Appassionato]

Interesting AP,

While I don't agree or disagree with you, I'm curious to hear what problems you think would have been caused by this product.

I think it is important to share info, Obviously. :D

Regards,

I personally believe he would have had the same problems and would have continued in the same downward spiral without support applied to the bottom via pour-ins specifically. Which pour-in is the best? I don't have an answer, and I also think it is individual.

I'm also not so sure considering the extent of the founder plus the length of time the horse was foundered that simply wrapping the hoof would have helped my guy. He needed more stabilization than the wrap could hav provided IMHO. Also, I don't think he could have taken the wrap PLUS shoeing...his soles were that tender. Even with Equipak he would have had "waves" that could have caused uneven areas and pressure points...something that would have really irritated him. I've watched this horse completely lose it when Michele tried to do the glue-ons herself: he spun out of one, but we thought we had it back on OK. We didn't, part of the inner cuff folded over and created a pressure point. The horse was unmanageable, I took the shoe off and said "heck with it" and the horse galloped off pretty darned sound. But the pressure point set him off...that's a scary thought when you think about it. Not slighting the product, I'm just explaining what I saw. Bo "nutted up" when the "rivet master" last shod him too, leaving me to show Jaye what happened:

http://pets.webshots.com/album/557283691khSwdN

The RF still sends shivers up my back on x-ray. We waited the longest on the RF to stop draining so we could safely shoe him. Oh no, I was NOT pleased that day NOR did I have a problem telling everyone I came into contact with about this guy's self-proclaimed "ability to follow good farriers." Heck with him. In any case, Bo was unmanagable for that shoeing prior to Jaye's and Jeff Holder's "find", so once Bo started acting up after we reset the shoe, I knew there was a problem. From there, I can honestly say I'd argue with Jaye himself if he wanted to try this stuff even now. Furthermore, I can say Jaye would hear me out. not because I'm an expert (I'm not), but because i am observant of my horse. I'm just not great at reading what's wrong sometimes...I'm human. :rolleyes:

In all, I'm presenting my side from an extremely sole sensitive horse. this is why metal doesn't touch the soles of Bo's hooves (not everyone can see that with the "after" shots of the package). Bo walks on sole packing, not shoes. The shoes are simply more stable and better "custom fitted" than boots would be, plus no possibility of shifting. No possibility of moisture either until the packing wants to work loose, at about 5 to 7 weeks. That just depends on the environment, how much he's run around on that shoeing, etc. hence I update Jaye like crazy with minute details, hoping I give enough info for him to make decisions about when Bo needs to see him again.

I realize that's a long response, but without a good bit of the story, one can't understand. And if I still left parts out, feel free to ask. I'll be happy to explain my position, you know that. :winkgrin:

[Auventera Two]

I've watched this horse completely lose it when Michele tried to do the glue-ons herself: he spun out of one, but we thought we had it back on OK. We didn't, part of the inner cuff folded over and created a pressure point. The horse was unmanageable, I took the shoe off and said "heck with it" and the horse galloped off pretty darned sound. But the pressure point set him off...that's a scary thought when you think about it. Not slighting the product, I'm just explaining what I saw. Bo "nutted up" when the "rivet master" last shod him too, leaving me to show Jaye what happened:

Sounds like the horse is getting pissed off with all the fiddling. I saw Libbey truly IN PAIN one time and she was stressed badly. Sweating, rocking, head down, panting, elevated heart rate. A horse that is stressed and in pain doesn't usually throw a big hissy and then gallop off. I have those issues with Libbey from time to time too. She just gets her panties in a twist and rips the foot away and tries to take off. We have to have a discussion on the proper way to behave for foot work. I think sometimes those foundered horses just get fed up with people touching their feet and it's more attitude than anything. Like if I had to go to the dentist once a month. I'd be pitching a fit too. :lol:

Do you guys trim Bo on a fatigue mat? I found that really helps with Libbey. Not a hard rubber stall mat, but an actual human anti-fatigue mat with soft foam on the back. She sinks down into it a good 1/2". This ended a lot of the fits.

I don't know about Jaye, but I have a hard time with a horse tearing up my back. I'm not as strong as a male farrier might be. I have to think of ways to keep the horse from fighting in the first place. I tie her tightly to a post on top of the big mat, and she's fine. Well, by now she's fine on the concrete with the rope hanging on the ground, but I mean months ago I was still having issues with her. I think she'd feel a little bit of discomfort then throw a hissy just to get away, in anticipation of pain. I know you bute Bo, but maybe the mat would help too?

[Appassionato]

Sounds like the horse is getting pissed off with all the fiddling. I saw Libbey truly IN PAIN one time and she was stressed badly. Sweating, rocking, head down, panting, elevated heart rate. A horse that is stressed and in pain doesn't usually throw a big hissy and then gallop off. I have those issues with Libbey from time to time too. She just gets her panties in a twist and rips the foot away and tries to take off. We have to have a discussion on the proper way to behave for foot work. I think sometimes those foundered horses just get fed up with people touching their feet and it's more attitude than anything. Like if I had to go to the dentist once a month. I'd be pitching a fit too. :lol:

Do you guys trim Bo on a fatigue mat? I found that really helps with Libbey. Not a hard rubber stall mat, but an actual human anti-fatigue mat with soft foam on the back. She sinks down into it a good 1/2". This ended a lot of the fits.

I don't know about Jaye, but I have a hard time with a horse tearing up my back. I'm not as strong as a male farrier might be. I have to think of ways to keep the horse from fighting in the first place. I tie her tightly to a post on top of the big mat, and she's fine. Well, by now she's fine on the concrete with the rope hanging on the ground, but I mean months ago I was still having issues with her. I think she'd feel a little bit of discomfort then throw a hissy just to get away, in anticipation of pain. I know you bute Bo, but maybe the mat would help too?

Nah, you don't have to be completely unsound to feel discomfort from pressure points. With the rivet master he didn't want to stand on the newly shod foot while the other was to be shod. He'd slam the foot to be shod down and kept picking up the hoof that was just shod. When Michele tried to start shoeing the other hoof, he performed identically to the situation with the rivet master. He acted out with his former farrier in this same way, and those shoeings were the ones Bo did the poorest overall. He'd slam around, place his hooves in various ways to stand...trying to show us his hooves hurt. Yes, of course I said something, but I was also told I was wrong too (thing;s like Bo was just having an attitude). Thankfully that isn't the case with Jaye and Dave, they will at least hear me out.

Bo gets banamine rather than bute because bute upsets his digestive system so badly, and it depends on how Bo is doing before we actually give him any. At Jaye's we generally don't have much problem other than when we tried to shoe Bo after the rivet master's "shoeing excellence", P.O. (or possible laminitis, no damage thankfully)flare-up from our barefoot stint, and when Bo was footsore from what we later found out was laminitis from Cushing's. Standing on mats do help, but for those rare occasions a pretty hot dose of banamine was needed.

[Auventera Two]

What is this rivet stuff you keep talking about? I must have missed that one.

[Appassionato]

What is this rivet stuff you keep talking about? I must have missed that one.

I had posted about it LONG ago, when it happened. The farrier that riveted pads to the shoes flattened the rivets only part of the way, and they stuck into Bo's hooves somewhat, but mainly they were unforgiving pressure points. You can see the two wounds per hoof in the pictures. It's between the toes and quarters. Both sets of lateral x-rays show the damage as well, but especially the RF at the toe.

[matryoshka]

A friend is trying Dave's stuff, and I'm going to order KC's stuff, just to compare. Butch is the perfect candidate to try it on, since he's flat footed and very likely post-laminitic from his weeks long lameness from a leg abscess.

I can think of three rescue horses (Equihab) that would have benefitted from this greatly last year. All needed a break from shoes. One had mechanical founder, one had thin soles and was recovering from a poor shoeing job, and the third was a club footed horse that also had a bad shoeing package. I could not keep these guys comfortable without boots, and I really don't like boots for turnout. Oh, and just try keeping a boot on a club foot for turnout, even with the darn gaiter. The boot kept turning sidways.

Now Equihab has a thin soled OTTB with fused fetlocks (both) that also had very, very long toes--he actually raced like that :eek:. We're bringing his toes back, which means he no longer has to flex his knees outward just to walk. Once I know how well the product works, he's first on my list to get it. And then there's another flat footed horse that foundered again a month or so ago....

So far, all the horses on my list to try Equicast are TB's, except for one foundered QH. See a pattern? Flat feet, thin soles, thin walls. Not all TB's are like this, but there seems to be quite a few out there.

[Appassionato]

The other reason I oppose it is I don't see it's rehabilitive efforts in "theory" for laminitis/founder. Now, as soon as I say that, someone is going to claim they saw improvements on their 'laminitic horse." The problem is, I know of laminitic horses turned out on ryegrass and eating with the cows that got better...and I'm not joking NOR making this up. I can't explain nor intend to...it's one of those things that if you uise this product (or any other laminitis/founder treatment) one should follow up within the week. I can't believe the number of "just do _____" posts I see to laminitic/foundered horses. Just because someone had a success story, how many of them made each success harder because of what they did? In all honesty, I see 3M's version of the Nolan Hoof Plate when I look at Equicast OR KC's version of it. Furthermore, as much as I love Sigafoos, I've been honest about the moisture issue...has no one listened? Or did we think Dave and KC had it all figured out? What what either's testing?

I didn't find KC's "new product" on his site (I'm interested to see if it is the same as Equicast chemically, not to mention recent arguments about who should be on there vs. who should not), so if anyone has a link I'd appreciate it. ;)

[irishcas]

AP:

While I understand your situation, you are basically a One Rat Study :D

I AM finding positive results and I'm trying it on a number of horses. I'm also documenting my study by applying different things to each front hoof.

Yes first and foremost diet, movement and a correct trim are critical to improvement. Once you have that and hit a road block improvements are obvious.

I am so far impressed with the results I'm getting using Dave's equipment.

Is it for every horse in every situation, NO. But it does work and we can only know that from trying.

I of course would love a crack at Bo and will never get it. So I'll let that statement stand where it is at :)

We can't possibly know the results for Bo unless we try it. If we can't than it has no revelance in the study, I mean no offense when saying it.

I hope this makes some sense? I'm sitting in an airport in Los Angeles and while it's 8pm here it's really 11pm for me. I'm tired!

Talk to you soon.

Regards,

[Appassionato]

AP:

While I understand your situation, you are basically a One Rat Study :D

I AM finding positive results and I'm trying it on a number of horses. I'm also documenting my study by applying different things to each front hoof.

Yes first and foremost diet, movement and a correct trim are critical to improvement. Once you have that and hit a road block improvements are obvious.

I am so far impressed with the results I'm getting using Dave's equipment.

Is it for every horse in every situation, NO. But it does work and we can only know that from trying.

I of course would love a crack at Bo and will never get it. So I'll let that statement stand where it is at :)

We can't possibly know the results for Bo unless we try it. If we can't than it has no revelance in the study, I mean no offense when saying it.

I hope this makes some sense? I'm sitting in an airport in Los Angeles and while it's 8pm here it's really 11pm for me. I'm tired!

Talk to you soon.

Regards,

True about the one rat study! However, show me one other rat that was similar and survived on this method. THAT'S the hard stuff....finding those like mine that survived. We can find penetrations but we can also find sole depth by caudal support (b/c of rotation...the horse penetrated but had massive sole depth and lived)....but few studies have been found even with full-on sinkers that lived....even in barefoot studies. What was the missing link? I doubt it was Equicast NOW that it is mentioned...and I've been around a while.

BUT, "I AM finding positive results and I'm trying it on a number of horses. I'm also documenting my study by applying different things to each front hoof." Curious...how do you know what worked (considering a statement like this? Of which I am constantly guilty of myself; I'm not throwing stones, but others will).

How many of the horses are sinkers (what I am most familiar with)? Just curious. The horse that had sunken P3's...got x-rays? Hey, that gets asked out of me. Fair is fair. Before and afters. Not JUSTY afters with pics of befores.

Furthermore, "curing laminitis" will come under questions...welcome to my world. We wopuldn't want hypocrits...so I'd love to see thwe evidence like everyone has asked of me. This isn't AT you; this is WITH you when I stood alone. Defend or fall. It's what I went through as well.

What crack at Bo...barefoot? We DID. Three weeks. It failed. The horse didn;t have enough hoof yet to support himself. Considering Cushing's and laminitic episodes since...we're lucky he's he's alive. Was my Q & A with A2 not clear??? Something I need to clarify before such judgements?

[irishcas]

However, show me one other rat that was similar and survived on this method. THAT'S the hard stuff

See now here is the difference. I'm not trying to CONVINCE anyone that my way is right. I'm just throwing out what I'm finding. Those who want to try it, well learn from my mistakes and my successes. It is not hard for me at all.

Curious...how do you know what worked (considering a statement like this? Of which I am constantly guilty of myself; I'm not throwing stones, but others will).

Ahhh once again, I'm not worried about thrown stones or what others will make of my theories. I'm throwing out to the public what I AM experimenting with. Does it make me right or wrong, well that is the question isn't it. I am, for NOW, currently studying two sinkers. So determined by me based on x-rays and the relationship of the extensor process and the top of the coronet band. I'm taking each horse and applying a slightly different treatment to each front foot. Is it scientific? For me, For Now, It Is.

I will photograph and document what I find. I will then share it with the public via my website and the internet chat rooms. Once again, does this make me right or wrong, who knows.

Before and After Xrays, yup have them and will have them after the Equicast.

Curing Laminits, who the hell said that? Equicast has NOTHING to do with curing Laminitis. That is all about rectifying the CAUSE. Please let me know where I stated that I could cure laminitis.

What I'm finding is that I am seeing a reversal of Distal Descent in horses whos diet I've gotten control of.

Is the Equicast Material the miracle cure, heck no, nothing is. But it just might give me the edge I need to boost the horses healing process. Geez, I'm not talking absolutes here, I'm talking experimentation. A 2, 5, 10 rat study. I have the ability to work first on my own horses and then on my clients.

Hope this makes sense. I'm still stuck in the LA Airport and am wicked wicked tired.

Regards,

[Appassionato]

See now here is the difference. I'm not trying to CONVINCE anyone that my way is right. I'm just throwing out what I'm finding. Those who want to try it, well learn from my mistakes and my successes. It is not hard for me at all.

Difference between mine and yours? Mine has been presented all along (even with poor farrier work). I may have missed your earlier posts?

Ahhh once again, I'm not worried about thrown stones or what others will make of my theories. I'm throwing out to the public what I AM experimenting with. Does it make me right or wrong, well that is the question isn't it. I am, for NOW, currently studying two sinkers. So determined by me based on x-rays and the relationship of the extensor process and the top of the coronet band. I'm taking each horse and applying a slightly different treatment to each front foot. Is it scientific? For me, For Now, It Is.

I will photograph and document what I find. I will then share it with the public via my website and the internet chat rooms. Once again, does this make me right or wrong, who knows.

Before and After Xrays, yup have them and will have them after the Equicast.

AFTER the Equicast??? *I* couldn't even get away with that! What makes you so worthy? I don't say that in a mean way, I'm being real.

Curing Laminits, who the hell said that? Equicast has NOTHING to do with curing Laminitis. That is all about rectifying the CAUSE. Please let me know where I stated that I could cure laminitis.

But it worked on founders??? "I think it works best on the foundered, thin soled and flat footed horses." Therein lies my mistake, I took founder from your quote and applied it to laminitis. :( Some of these are probably just P.O., but the protocol woukld be the same, no?

Mechanical jarring so long as barefoot is OK? Or wer you looking for a cure? I'm not being a smart-alec, I'm trynig to figure out why founder can be applied but NOT laminitis. Again, evidence?

*I* had to provide x-rays, no offense, but no one else here is better than me. X-rays, please? I've provided them EVERY time I've had them done...with or without judgement. I've even provided videos...people are still convinced I abuse my horse. It's time everyone claiming my path WALKS my path. Else bow down. I don't mean it in an ugly way, but put up or shut up. Dang, it's asked of farriers too, folks! C'mon!

What I'm finding is that I am seeing a reversal of Distal Descent in horses whos diet I've gotten control of.

Diet, or Equicast? Or both? How would we know what the difference was? In Bo's case, he was on molasses-laden feeds...after Cushing's diagnosis I lowered the dosage. There was a noticable drop off (provable by my postings) until his pergolide and next shoeing as well as next blood testing. But in any case, I had to prove it. X-RAYS??? I provided mine! Multiple times!

=irishcasIs the Equicast Material the miracle cure, heck no, nothing is. But it just might give me the edge I need to boost the horses healing process. Geez, I'm not talking absolutes here, I'm talking experimentation. A 2, 5, 10 rat study. I have the ability to work first on my own horses and then on my clients.

Some of the rest of us have as well. Even I had to suck it up and admit that the rest of Bo's recovery wouldn't happen at then 24 YO without blood testing...then we found Cushing's. Before he was not Cushing's nor IR. Things can change on us. :(

What were these horse's blood test results?

Hope this makes sense. I'm still stuck in the LA Airport and am wicked wicked tired.

I hear ya. School has me exhausted. :)

In any case before you think I was being harsh, I wasn't. Not NEAR what has been placed on me, and from every direction, and rightfully. Hence I ask the questions I have. Not out of poop-flinging, but in hopes you can find a better experiment.

[Katy Watts]

Here’s a theory that might explain why the hoofcasts make a metabolic type laminitic horse more comfortable. No research, only some well educated hoof experts scratching heads trying to explain reaction to various treatments. Discussion came about after we discovered that my mare, and a few other metabolic laminitis cases HATED their Polysteel shoes, which are soft and squishy. Went back sound after application of a rigid shoe package.

Metabolic laminitis often presents in a slow, simmering form with constant low grade inflammation. Dr. Pollitt found that the lesions are different, having elongated tips on the secondary laminae. They don’t just all turn loose like in a carb overload laminitis. Some speculation that one function of the laminae is to help cushion impact. If they are inflamed, horse gets ouchy on hard ground. Hoof mechanism, the expansion and contraction at every step, just doesn’t feel good on inflamed laminae. If more cushioning is applied to absorb impact, less hoof mechanism happens- force dissipates through the pad. If hoof mechanism is restricted, as with a hoofcast or shoeing package that prevents expansion of the heels, this may limit the stretching and stress on the laminae that occurs at every step. Another factor discussed is if one believes in the hydraulic function of the digital cushion that uses blood to cushion impact, what happens if blood flow is impaired due to previous vascular damage, or vasoconstriction due to insulin resistance or some other endocrine trigger factor?
Lots of questions to be answered, but I am encouraged because I think people are starting to ask better questions.

[irishcas]

Not out of poop-flinging, but in hopes you can find a better experiment.

AP: While I'm sure you don't mean your stuff to be rude, it sure can come out that way :) Not sure why you think my experiment is not good enough.

This isn't about you or Bo and I'm not judging you. I only said your experience (while important and knowledgeable) is still based on one horse and one struggle. That doesn't make your story, the successes and failures any less important and I for one am glad you have continued to document your progress.

I'm doing a valid experiment on horses to see if I can get their feet to improve instead of staying stagnant. I only have bloodwork on one of them. But I've been living with both horses now for years, one for 6, the other for 4. I feed them daily, know exactly what they eat, drink, where they sleep at what time of the day, how much movement they get, etc etc.

I have xrays from 2002 - 2008 (taken annually) on one horse, and xrays from 2004, 2005 and 2008 on the other. I will be applying the material as stated above on both horses, with various inserts. I will take photos and remove the casts every two weeks. After 6 months I will take more xrays. Nothing else will have changed, diet, supplements, turnout, hay (I have hay stored up that will last me til next October) or movement patterns.

These horses had chronic laminitis and previous rotations of the hoof capsule. Both horses no longer have rotation, haven't for years, but both horses are sinkers. One more severe than the other. You can see his feet at my site, his name is Murray.

I believe they are no longer in a laminitic attack, but are still sunk and sore on anything but soft ground. Murray, moved off markedly improved once applying the casts for the first time. He also had developed concavity within 2 weeks that he has not had since I pulled his shoes in 2004.

I agree with Katy's ideas and that is why I've started to experiment with the casts. My major concern though is will it inhibit hoof function? That is why I'm experimenting with my horses first before I take it on the road. I can monitor them daily and if needed remove the casts immediately.

So I'm off to bed, my flight was late from LA and I've now been up for 30 hours, I'm too old to do that anymore :)

Regards,

[Auventera Two]

The other reason I oppose it is I don't see it's rehabilitive efforts in "theory" for laminitis/founder. Now, as soon as I say that, someone is going to claim they saw improvements on their 'laminitic horse."

That is REALLY unfair. You can't compare every other founder case out there to Bo. I post on KC's forums and have read so many stories of happy owners whose horses, even founders, have seen great improvement with the PHW. Like I said, I haven't tried it myself. All I know about it is what I read on those forums.

Also you need to remember that NO TWO FOUNDERS ARE THE SAME. Your horse is taking a lot longer to heal and return to soundness (and he still hasn't) than some horses with full penetration. It's just the nature of the beast. No 2 are the same, even if managed with identical protocols. Also your horse has many other medical issues, including intestinal cancer, and cushings and you really have no clue how that is TRULY affecting his metabolic stability. So to say that X, Y, or Z cannot or will not work on founders because of your one rat study is not fair.

My one rat study should lead me to believe that all founders, even if neglected for 2 years can magically come sound and healthy and happy and be sound for riding again....but I know that's not the case. Someone else with a horse with less damage than Libbey might not ever return to soundness. The fact that Libbey is being ridden and tears up the trail like a tazzy devil doesn't mean that everybody's foundered horse can do that. If that were the case, Bo would be back in full work. No two are the same.

[Appassionato]

AP: While I'm sure you don't mean your stuff to be rude, it sure can come out that way :) Not sure why you think my experiment is not good enough.

No ma'am, being rude was NOT my intentions at all! I mentioned "a better experiment" since all of us try to strive for clean information, and with laminitis and founders that's hard all on it's own. There's so many factors. In hopes of help for you and your work, maybe some of us can look from as many angles as possible.

This isn't about you or Bo and I'm not judging you. I only said your experience (while important and knowledgeable) is still based on one horse and one struggle. That doesn't make your story, the successes and failures any less important and I for one am glad you have continued to document your progress.

That wasn't my point, my point was that my info was put out there as it was done. I guess I'm curious as to why you're waiting? You've mentioned that you will put the info out there at somepoint...but some factors can be missed in the interim. We're all human. THAT'S why I mentioned the hammering I took from all directions...it actually was a good thing because it got us some answers.

I'm doing a valid experiment on horses to see if I can get their feet to improve instead of staying stagnant. I only have bloodwork on one of them. But I've been living with both horses now for years, one for 6, the other for 4. I feed them daily, know exactly what they eat, drink, where they sleep at what time of the day, how much movement they get, etc etc.

I have xrays from 2002 - 2008 (taken annually) on one horse, and xrays from 2004, 2005 and 2008 on the other. I will be applying the material as stated above on both horses, with various inserts. I will take photos and remove the casts every two weeks. After 6 months I will take more xrays. Nothing else will have changed, diet, supplements, turnout, hay (I have hay stored up that will last me til next October) or movement patterns.

These horses had chronic laminitis and previous rotations of the hoof capsule. Both horses no longer have rotation, haven't for years, but both horses are sinkers. One more severe than the other. You can see his feet at my site, his name is Murray.

I believe they are no longer in a laminitic attack, but are still sunk and sore on anything but soft ground. Murray, moved off markedly improved once applying the casts for the first time. He also had developed concavity within 2 weeks that he has not had since I pulled his shoes in 2004.

I was not aware of some of these horse's info already being out there! That's the kind of thing I was hoping to get from you, and hope to see updates as they come. I'll check out your site again!

I never said your experiment wasn't valid, I was trying to help you prevent that claim from being made in the future.

I agree with Katy's ideas and that is why I've started to experiment with the casts. My major concern though is will it inhibit hoof function? That is why I'm experimenting with my horses first before I take it on the road. I can monitor them daily and if needed remove the casts immediately.

Just an FYI: I don't know what kind of adhesive is used, but you may have to use nippers to get the casts off.

As far as hoof function? I really don't know. :confused:

So I'm off to bed, my flight was late from LA and I've now been up for 30 hours, I'm too old to do that anymore :)

Hope you got some sleep! ;)

[Appassionato]

That is REALLY unfair. You can't compare every other founder case out there to Bo. I post on KC's forums and have read so many stories of happy owners whose horses, even founders, have seen great improvement with the PHW. Like I said, I haven't tried it myself. All I know about it is what I read on those forums.

Also you need to remember that NO TWO FOUNDERS ARE THE SAME. Your horse is taking a lot longer to heal and return to soundness (and he still hasn't) than some horses with full penetration. It's just the nature of the beast. No 2 are the same, even if managed with identical protocols. Also your horse has many other medical issues, including intestinal cancer, and cushings and you really have no clue how that is TRULY affecting his metabolic stability. So to say that X, Y, or Z cannot or will not work on founders because of your one rat study is not fair.

My one rat study should lead me to believe that all founders, even if neglected for 2 years can magically come sound and healthy and happy and be sound for riding again....but I know that's not the case. Someone else with a horse with less damage than Libbey might not ever return to soundness. The fact that Libbey is being ridden and tears up the trail like a tazzy devil doesn't mean that everybody's foundered horse can do that. If that were the case, Bo would be back in full work. No two are the same.

I never said all laminitics/founders were the same. That's why I was demanding for more information...the information available out there for laminitics/founders and metabolic problems sucks (with the exception of www.safergrass.org (http://www.safergrass.org), Katy puts out info that was researched)

The quote of mine that you responded to, I said that I didn't see equicast's ability to rehabilitate laminitics/founders in "theory." Just like I don't see it for the Nolan Hoof Plate either. I thought Katy gave a great response to that.

Bo's soundness...his vet, Jaye, Dave, and all the people that have physically seen him have a different opinion. He's not going to unfuse his hocks nor grow new P3s (but I'd love for him too!), but his front hooves aren't laminitic anymore (sore-footed was our only sign) since being on the pergolide and his recent testing on ACTH/insulin and thyroid were fine. What other tests should be run?

[J.D.]

Appassionato...... What other tests should be run?


None, ride your horse and enjoy him:yes::cool:

[Auventera Two]

I never said all laminitics/founders were the same. That's why I was demanding for more information...the information available out there for laminitics/founders and metabolic problems sucks (with the exception of www.safergrass.org (http://www.safergrass.org), Katy puts out info that was researched)

The quote of mine that you responded to, I said that I didn't see equicast's ability to rehabilitate laminitics/founders in "theory." Just like I don't see it for the Nolan Hoof Plate either. I thought Katy gave a great response to that.

Bo's soundness...his vet, Jaye, Dave, and all the people that have physically seen him have a different opinion. He's not going to unfuse his hocks nor grow new P3s (but I'd love for him too!), but his front hooves aren't laminitic anymore (sore-footed was our only sign) since being on the pergolide and his recent testing on ACTH/insulin and thyroid were fine. What other tests should be run?

My point was that I've been noticing in all these hoof threads, you always mention Bo in every one. Of course that's all that's on your mind because of all you've been through with the horse. But the fact is Bo is a single case with a single set of circumstances and you cannot tell other people what to do with their horses based upon your one particular circumstance.

If Equicast, or PHW works on other founder cases - then it works. It might not work on all, but if it works on only ONE horse, then it is effective and useful for that one horse. What works for Bo might not work for another founder.

Even between my own two laminitic horses there is a considerable amount of difference. Even Libbey with a full blown founder, is easier to manage than my QH who tends toward laminitis if not meticulously managed. And she's never foundered! If that mare foundered, I fear that it would be the big snooze for her. Some horses just aren't as resiliant, don't heal as well, or don't have the personality to deal with the insult. Others do. They're all different.

If I've learned nothing else from owning 2 metabolic horses, I have learned that you have to educate yourself as much as possible but always remember that there is NEVER one solution that works for every one. You can read 25 articles on managing the foundered horse, and all 25 will have different opinions and tactics. No two are ever shod the same. No two are ever fed the same. Some things are consistent as far as keeping the weight down and the feet comfortable, but how you go about that varies totally from one case to the next. No offense intended, but I admit that it gets a little frustrating to read your constant references to Bo and comparisons of every other horse out there to him. You just can't do that.

[Appassionato]

My point was that I've been noticing in all these hoof threads, you always mention Bo in every one. Of course that's all that's on your mind because of all you've been through with the horse. But the fact is Bo is a single case with a single set of circumstances and you cannot tell other people what to do with their horses based upon your one particular circumstance.

Should I mention Libbey then? Or just let you (the owner) mention her?

And I never told Kim what to do in regards to the founders, she asked me for a more detailed answer. I gave it. What's your problem with that?

If Equicast, or PHW works on other founder cases - then it works. It might not work on all, but if it works on only ONE horse, then it is effective and useful for that one horse. What works for Bo might not work for another founder.

And my first post in this thread was, "I don't think it would have worked for my case." Kim asked for clarification of my answer. I gave it. What other answer could I have provided? I don't know every founder out there. I saw no point in giving the information given to me by other posters that have thin-soled TBs, that's up to them. Plus, they would know their own horse, no?

Even between my own two laminitic horses there is a considerable amount of difference. Even Libbey with a full blown founder, is easier to manage than my QH who tends toward laminitis if not meticulously managed. And she's never foundered! If that mare foundered, I fear that it would be the big snooze for her. Some horses just aren't as resiliant, don't heal as well, or don't have the personality to deal with the insult. Others do. They're all different.

Have I not mentioned that there are so many factors involved? Matter of fact, Kim answered this already. And I've answered her. Now you and I are discussing it...:dead:

If I've learned nothing else from owning 2 metabolic horses, I have learned that you have to educate yourself as much as possible but always remember that there is NEVER one solution that works for every one. You can read 25 articles on managing the foundered horse, and all 25 will have different opinions and tactics. No two are ever shod the same. No two are ever fed the same. Some things are consistent as far as keeping the weight down and the feet comfortable, but how you go about that varies totally from one case to the next. No offense intended, but I admit that it gets a little frustrating to read your constant references to Bo and comparisons of every other horse out there to him. You just can't do that.

Then don't read it! Once again, Kim asked for clarification and I gave it.

FTR, did you or did you not compare Libbey with Bo to Jaye??? Now who's not being "fair"? No offense intended either.

The times I do give these "comparisons", it's because sometimes a person can learn by looking at other cases. I'm open about mine. I give info then, not later after I've "perfected" the facts about it.

[Auventera Two]

Well, I think you got my point clear enough. ;)

[Appassionato]

Well, I think you got my point clear enough. ;)

I don't think you really got to your point other than the subject of Bo really pisses you off. Which is fine, it doesn't bother me. I do find it outstanding that you claim I overpost about him, yet look at how much of the information you are so unclear on. Do "fractures" ring a bell?

What did bother me in this thread was that Kim's credibility has been questioned before (comments made about her website here and at other forums) and I'd like to see that stop. THAT'S why I asked the questions I did and hoped she'd see WHY I questioned. I want her experiment to go well and hopefully help horses out there that need the help. I have no reason to NOT want the best for the horses Kim is working with. I just disagreed with a few points and it was discussed.

[reillyshoe]

A couple of points:
1. The idea of casting for laminitis is cetainly not new. The use of casting for problems such as laminitis has been used for decades. 3M marketed a casting tape in the 80's with a higher resin content than their regular casting material. It was discontinued a few years later.
2. Dave Richards Equi-cast comes in differing materials. Some are fiberglass, but some are made of differing materials, including polypropelyne. He also describes the use of an adhesive at the heel when necessary.
3. The casting process definitely affects hoof expansion (how can it not?). The material has some flex in certain directions, but they do not move lengthwise once the urethane resin has set. Since the material is wrapped around the heel bulbs, it has to limit the ability of the foot to deform under load. This was one of the observations farriers made with the 3M product, as the structure of heels changed. I think it is interesting that this is deemed acceptable by those who are concerned with the affect of shoes on hoof capsule expansion.

[J.D.]

reillyshoe-......This was one of the observations farriers made with the 3M product, as the structure of heels changed. I think it is interesting that this is deemed acceptable by those who are concerned with the affect of shoes on hoof capsule expansion.


Say it's not true Pat!!! Casting a foot inhibits proper foot function? Staff, STAFF, call Mr. Reilly his thoughts on this subject may be detrimental to certain marketing plans!!!!!:eek:

[LMH]

And yet another hoof thread that I wish I had never opened.:(

It is just never going to be possible to say hoof in public and not end up with what reads like a hormonal cat fight, is there? :no:

I am a little confused in how Kim's arse can be jumped by just sharing what she is observing?

Is that now grounds for a personal attack?

[Katy Watts]

It is just never going to be possible to say hoof in public and not end up with what reads like a hormonal cat fight, is there? :no:


"hoof" does seem to be a very emotionally, politically charged term. Would it help it we called it something else? I'm now using the term 'hoofcare provider' instead of 'farrier' or 'trimmer' and it seems to have a calming affect on a mob poised for conflict. Perhaps DIA for 'distal impact appendage' ?

[reillyshoe]

Say it's not true Pat!!! Casting a foot inhibits proper foot function? Staff, STAFF, call Mr. Reilly his thoughts on this subject may be detrimental to certain marketing plans!!!!!:eek:


I never said anything about "proper" foot function- just pointing out that it does have an effect. I cast feet on occasion, as well as put shoes on. I also use hoof boots and like barefeet (in fact, I have used each of these modalities to treat laminitic patients in the last month). I also acknowledge that all of these orthotics are used to change the forces on the foot, and therefore affect the function of the foot.

[matryoshka]

Actually Pat, Equicast inhibiting hoof expansion is why I think it would have helped a couple of the horses we've had through Equihab. They had thin soles and thin walls and couldn't even hold nails without putty building up the hoof wall. I could easily flex their heels in my hands. Boots seemed to offer them enough support in the field, but I really dislike turning horses out in boots.

As a trimmer, I look at the Equicast as a way to get the support of a shoe without having to drive nails. Also it helps take the burden and frustration of boot use off the owner. For the horses I was taking care of, I wanted to keep them more comfortable while allowing their feet to grow.

However, I hadn't thought about the fact that maybe the Equicast provides too much "support" and would prevent the internal structures from improving at all. :no: Of course, it depends upon whether one thinks flexing of the hoof is important to internal hoof health. Heaven knows that's a whole other argument. :D

Anyway, my friend tried it on a horse who has had poor hoof quality for years. He's an OTTB, and since she took over the trimming from the KC La Pierre-trained trimmers, the deep cracks have gone away. But, the heels still underrun terribly. He had a huge abscess where I thought he was going to shed his entire hoof. A week after having the Equicast applied, he's running and playing like a youngster, doing and extended trot out in the field that my friend hasn't seen him do in years. He's in his 20's and saw some hard use both during and after his racing career. I think he was a timber horse.

For the record, the horses that I would like to have used Equicast on had been stuck with bad shoeing jobs. I don't think the shoes did the damage, rather the balance of the trim under the shoes was off in each case. These horses simply needed a break from shoes (my opinion) until the nail holes grew out and the feet firmed up before going back into work--with shoes. I don't know if they would ever have been sound barefoot. With rescue, they need to be adopted out too soon to tell. My advice to the adopters was to make sure they had a really good farrier to help with these horses' hoof condition.

[matryoshka]

I'll admit I didn't read all the back and forth about Bo. I regularly skip that kind of thing. I, for one, am glad Appass keeps reminding us about Bo. His case should serve as a huge caution to all of us about the harm we can cause if we let our ideas overcome good sense and the information out there about hoof function and health. There is no point in allowing opinions to drive us--we have to keep an open mind for anything "new to us" that can help or harm a horse. I was thinking that Equicast could be really helpful for a few horses I know, and now I'm thinking about what Pat said. Caution is a good thing.

Appass has been on a journey of learning that has helped many of us. What she has to say is not always comfortable, but we need to hear it and think about what she has learned and what Bo has been through. I have dealt with mechanical founder in a horse, but it was nowhere near as severe as what Bo suffered. Thank goodness for that! I also think it bears repeating for any horse owner who checks out these threads (heaven help them). New people log into COTH all the time and don't know the story.

I am very interested in what farriers have to say about Equicast. More thoughts/cautions?

[reillyshoe]

Matryoshka,
I do think casting can help to stabilize the foot. When extended to the fetlock, I wonder if it removes some of the weight on the foot. Casting to the fetlock in combination with wedging has been shown to reduce the strain on the dorsal laminae (F.Buchner). The downside for some laminitis cases it the difficulty involved in regularly assessing the foot. It is possible to cut holes in the cast to view the foot, but for most cases I prefer a hospital plate.
Many farriers observed the 3M tape would result in some contraction of the heels.

[irishcas]

3. The casting process definitely affects hoof expansion (how can it not?). The material has some flex in certain directions, but they do not move lengthwise once the urethane resin has set. Since the material is wrapped around the heel bulbs, it has to limit the ability of the foot to deform under load. This was one of the observations farriers made with the 3M product, as the structure of heels changed. I think it is interesting that this is deemed acceptable by those who are concerned with the affect of shoes on hoof capsule expansion.

George:

I did say that I'm concerned with this. Again, the Equicast is NOT a long term solution. It is just another tool to achieve health, healing and soundness in the long term Barefoot horse.

I appreciate the knowledge and sharing of info that we can get on this topic. I have made no claims that casting these horses is going to cure laminitis or founder. That comes thru overall equine health, diet, and balance in the horses environment. It also comes thru a good healthy trim. The horses I'm playing with have their diet and overall body health in check. I've been unable to build up sole depth and concavity in Murray's feet in particular. I think the sunken CB has constantly inflamed his corium and prevented that healing. I am not interested in putting shoes and nails in the foot (lets not argue this, it is what it is).

So I've decided to play with the Equicast. I'm keeping the material low on the back of the bulbs. I'm resetting the cast every 2 - 3 weeks and applying my trim to the hoof. I just pulled the casts off yesterday on Murray, took lots of pictures and then reapplied. He has concavity for the first time!

This is not a miracle folks, it's a tool. I thought it would be fun to share. App, I appreciate why you are trying to help me, thank you. Although, I will never seek to impress those who can not see. :)

I'm not trying to save the world, just learn as much as I can and share it while I do.

Another member of our AHA is getting ready to ride the Continental Divide with 4 horses. He is taking boots but also material to see what we can get out of it. We should all be experimenting and sharing. Isn't our ultimate goal to help our horses be as healthy and happy as they can be while being our partners in pleasure and/or work?

I did NOT start this thread to create a fight, I'll have all the photos up on my site in the next 2 hours. I'll let those of you who are interested know when it's done.

Have a lovely day.

Regards,

[irishcas]

Okay here are the photos from the Murray Experiment :) http://www.clickandtrim.com/equicast.htm

Regards,

[LMH]

"hoof" does seem to be a very emotionally, politically charged term. Would it help it we called it something else? I'm now using the term 'hoofcare provider' instead of 'farrier' or 'trimmer' and it seems to have a calming affect on a mob poised for conflict. Perhaps DIA for 'distal impact appendage' ?

Great idea! DIA is not a 4 letter word!!:lol:

[J.D.]

Okay here are the photos from the Murray Experiment :) http://www.clickandtrim.com/equicast.htm

Regards,


You laminitc horse is none of my business until I saw the pics. He is sunk.

I took the liberty to mark up your "after trim" pic. http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/BUA/IMG_0396SM.jpg

The points in the heels- the heels are to high

The points in the Toe- the sole is convex and outline of P3 is definitely visiable

The circle is the area of significant trauma. There is medial displacement with compromised circulatory processes.

You need a Farrier and some X-rays. If you have been trimming this poor horse for two plus years and no definite change to the foot your protocol is not what this horse needs.
"Give them what they need, not what you "feel" they need" !!!
MURRY is in TROUBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

[irishcas]

You laminitc horse is none of my business until I saw the pics. He is sunk.

I took the liberty to mark up your "after trim" pic. http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/BUA/IMG_0396SM.jpg

The points in the heels- the heels are to high

The points in the Toe- the sole is convex and outline of P3 is definitely visiable

The circle is the area of significant trauma. There is medial displacement with compromised circulatory processes.

You need a Farrier and some X-rays. If you have been trimming this poor horse for two plus years and no definite change to the foot your protocol is not what this horse needs.
"Give them what they need, not what you "feel" they need" !!!
MURRY is in TROUBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

JD:

DID you go to Murray's page on my site which shows the farrier care he was getting before me?? Obviously not, please do www.clickandtrim.com/murray.htm you'll see his feet shod in all their glory.

I KNOW Murray is sunk, duh have you read all my other posts in this thread. He is NO LONGER laminitic because the owner is finally listening to me and keeping him off grass 100%. I nor any hoofcare provider can be effective treatments and care if the owners don't control diet, and other important factors.

Murray's feet look 1000 times better in my care, thank you very much :D

Regards,

[J.D.]

irishcas;-
DID you go to Murray's page on my site which shows the farrier care he was getting before me?? Obviously not, please do www.clickandtrim.com/murray.htm (http://www.clickandtrim.com/murray.htm) you'll see his feet shod in all their glory.


Yes, and I see the most recent pic of your trim. Not much difference for 2 years of your professional care.




I KNOW Murray is sunk, duh have you read all my other posts in this thread.

No I did not. Just looked at his feet, didn't need to read through a diatribe.






He is NO LONGER laminitic because the owner is finally listening to me and keeping him off grass 100%.

Taking a horse off grass doesn't "Cure" laminitis. Per the pics of the anterior 1/3 of the foot , Murray is still laminitic and per you site he still has 5 degrees rotation.
Taking the horse off grass reduces a chance of a full blown episode.





I nor any hoofcare provider can be effective treatments and care if the owners don't control diet, and other important factors

As stated before~~20%-80%.

Murray's feet look 1000 times better in my care, thank you very much :D

Not really if ya compare your first trim to the lastest. Yor heels are to high and the bars are curling. Frog is not cut back to balance heels properly.
The feet have a long way to go. But maybe in another two years you can staighten him out!!!!!:eek::eek::eek:

[irishcas]

Jaye:

I think it's sad that you think diet, laminitis don't effect the feet long term. The progress of Murray's feet were not due to my lack of care. We are not miracle workers, unless the laminitis is stopped there won't be much healing.

It was one step up and 2 steps back. He would get better in the winter and then crash in the Spring, Summer and Fall. If you can't recognize that this is a possibility then I don't know what to say to you.

BTW, there was no diatribe in any of my posts. Just the facts.

I will not let this be another barefoot bashing thread. This is about a product Equicasts and if it can be of help to the thin soled, or sunken, or rotated foot.

I will continue to post pictures of my trimming, which I think is fine and the progress or lack thereof I get with Murray. The only thing is that this year Murray will not be on grass in the Spring. Lets see what happens.

[J.D.]

irishcas

I think it's sad that you think diet, laminitis don't effect the feet long term.


You said Murray was "No longer laminitic because he had been taken off the grass". I said " removing the horse from grass doesn't cure laminitis".

You have convince the owner to remove the horse from a causation of laminitis~~~ i.e. "removal will reduce a chance of a full blown episode".

It is "sad" for me to read people's statements and see how uninformed they are about "types" of laminitis and their causation's.






The progress of Murray's feet were not due to my lack of care. We are not miracle workers, unless the laminitis is stopped there won't be much healing.

No we are not!!! But WE as Professional use "EVERY RESOURCE" available. All I see in the pics of Murray's feet is one resource and then experimentation.




It was one step up and 2 steps back. He would get better in the winter and then crash in the Spring, Summer and Fall. If you can't recognize that this is a possibility then I don't know what to say to you.

It's called hormonal changes with the seasons, Dr. Walsh wrote a good theory on the aspects of seasonal episodes. have you read it? have to attended any sessions beyond barefoot related topics?
Do you have a subscript to the latest laminitis information?
Do you call people outside the barefoot circle for advise?
If you answer "No" to any of those questions prosed you are not using all resources available as a professional, IMO.



BTW, there was no diatribe in any of my posts. Just the facts.
For me it is a diatribe; to each his own.


I will not let this be another barefoot bashing thread. This is about a product Equicasts and if it can be of help to the thin soled, or sunken, or rotated foot.


I don't "bash barefoot". It works in some situations and some it doesn't. The facts are you have attended this horse for 2 years with minimal results.
When is the last time you jogged the horse? When is the last time you have monitored the horse's digital pulses? Had blood work done to eliminate other issues?



I will continue to post pictures of my trimming, which I think is fine and the progress or lack thereof I get with Murray.

Good, it should be interesting. Refine your trimming a little per some x-rays.




The only thing is that this year Murray will not be on grass in the Spring. Lets see what happens

Good, seems you have made a difference in the owners minds.

[Lookout]

You laminitc horse is none of my business until I saw the pics. He is sunk.
I took the liberty to mark up your "after trim" pic. http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/BUA/IMG_0396SM.jpg
The points in the heels- the heels are to high
The points in the Toe- the sole is convex and outline of P3 is definitely visiable
The circle is the area of significant trauma. There is medial displacement with compromised circulatory processes.

I agree. The trauma at the toe area wass not prominently visible before. Re: medial displacement, agree, the line of separation is visible not just at the toe but all the way around the side on the outside (? RF?) which may indicate lateral rotation. Agree with recommendation for xrays.

[irishcas]

I agree. The trauma at the toe area wass not prominently visible before. Re: medial displacement, agree, the line of separation is visible not just at the toe but all the way around the side on the outside (? RF?) which may indicate lateral rotation. Agree with recommendation for xrays.

Ahhh the Strasserite speaks up. Okay so what do you think the Equicast will do. That is the question. As stated before I know there is seperation and blood in the sole and a prominent CB line. The foot is unhealthy, shoes will not make it healthy.

What about the Equicast???? That is what the discussion is about.

Sheesh, do you all have a reading problem? Shoes will not fix this problem. Christina is that what you recommend, apply shoes, align the pasterns and voila all will be well???

Currently xrays are not needed, position of the CB is easily determined based on the collateral grooves, sole and outline of CB.

What about the Equicast? Helloooooooooooooo can the naysayers read the subject line?

[irishcas]

Jaye:

How many horses do you own and currently have living on the property where you live?

I understand the cause and effect of laminitis as much as we can know right now. I am up to date on the most current articles as well as aware of those that don't go "main stream".

I see Murray every day for hours at a time. He has no Digital Pulses, hasn't had them for a few months. I see him running, bucking, playing, standing still, sleeping (standing and lying down). Eating, coming in in the AM for a stall check, going out in the afternoon. I see him drinking, and socializing. I've ridden him, worked with him from the ground. Attended to his dental work, vet workups, xrays, hoof care, body work, massages, accupuncture, accupressure. I know his vaccine and worming schedule, I know where he likes to be scratched, what he likes to eat and who his horse friends are.

I've seen photos of your work and feel the same way about yours as I guess you do about mine.

I'm guessing you feel that the Equicast is not the way to go. I'll post new pix in 2 - 3 weeks, lets see what happens. I love how you are horrified by my "experimenting" on a live horse but don't have an issue with KILLING horses to prove a scientific point... snort.

I'm done with the shoers for now.

[LMH]

[quote=J.D.;3076231


N Frog is not cut back to balance heels properly.
The feet have a long way to go. [/quote]

JD...could you explain what you mean by this? I am sure it is obvious but for some reason how this is phrased is confusing to me?

thanks.

[LMH]

One more question, Jaye...do you have a link to Dr Walsh's papers or could summarize it briefly?

I would be interested in this.

[J.D.]

irishcas
How many horses do you own and currently have living on the property where you live?


4; ages 5-19.






I understand the cause and effect of laminitis as much as we can know right now. I am up to date on the most current articles as well as aware of those that don't go "main stream".

Really, never seen your name on the tables at Equine Conference on Laminitis and Diseases of the Foot, Laminitis Symposium and others:no:







I see Murray every day for hours at a time. He has no Digital Pulses, hasn't had them for a few months. I see him running, bucking, playing, standing still, sleeping (standing and lying down). Eating, coming in in the AM for a stall check, going out in the afternoon. I see him drinking, and socializing. I've ridden him, worked with him from the ground. Attended to his dental work, vet workups, xrays, hoof care, body work, massages, accupuncture, accupressure. I know his vaccine and worming schedule, I know where he likes to be scratched, what he likes to eat and who his horse friends are.


Please provide video of the jog on hard ground.:eek:





I've seen photos of your work and feel the same way about yours as I guess you do about mine.

Good, ya can't please everyone.




I'm guessing you feel that the Equicast is not the way to go. I'll post new pix in 2 - 3 weeks, lets see what happens.

Have used "casting material" for years it's nothing new.






I love how you are horrified by my "experimenting" on a live horse but don't have an issue with KILLING horses to prove a scientific point... snort.

Academics do it for research and provide theoretical data with controls. Empirical data of a one horse study is proving a mindset with no controls.





I'm done with the shoers for now.


To bad, ya might have learned something. As stated in a PM, I would be glad to help ya. :cool:

[J.D.]

One more question, Jaye...do you have a link to Dr Walsh's papers or could summarize it briefly?

I would be interested in this.


Katy has the direct link and paper; URL~~~ excerpt from the 3rd Inertnational Equine Conference on Laminitis and diseases of the foot:

"..information also indicates ACTH levels maybe elevated in ALL horses during the month of September...."
, thus leading one to surmize alot of the "under the radar episodes" occur during the fall and early winter.

[rcloisonne]

Ahhh the Strasserite speaks up. Okay so what do you think the Equicast will do. That is the question. As stated before I know there is seperation and blood in the sole and a prominent CB line. The foot is unhealthy, shoes will not make it healthy.
Neither will Equicast make them healthy. And while I am NOT a Strasserite, a agree with Lookout's post 100%.

What will make them better is a proper trim and mechanical support of some type. Note: I don't think this horse will ever have good/healthy feet. Too much damage going on for too long a time.

The horse looks like he suffers from metabolic problems as well. Have any tests been done? Keeping him off grass is only a first step, not the cure you are imagining.

If you have indeed been trimming this horse for two years you should seriously consider turning him over to someone else (of course, NOT to whatever clown of an iron hanger was shoeing him before :eek:).

Sheesh, do you all have a reading problem? Shoes will not fix this problem.
As previously stated, neither will Equicast. Do I need to state the obvious? Your barefoot at all costs mentality hasn't worked all that well either. Two years? Good grief! He's worse now than before. That's the reality.

Currently xrays are not needed, position of the CB is easily determined based on the collateral grooves, sole and outline of CB.
Are you now claiming to have x-ray vision? I've had more than one BFT completely surprised by what the rads revealed. Three of them to be exact. They too had your naive self assurance they could devine what the inside looked like by reading what they could see on the outside. They were WRONG!

What about the Equicast? Helloooooooooooooo can the naysayers read the subject line?
Try taking this question and your photos to the yahoo EquineCushings & IR Hoof Photos & X-Rays hoof group:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/

There's a real farrier there (Abby Bloxsom) who has successfully used this stuff (and it is a current topic). She can provide you with many suggestions on how best to get this poor horse's feet in better order.

Do it. For the horse's sake.

[Katy Watts]

Jaye,
Dr. Walsh's paper has been taken off the internet because they are going to publish in a journal. The seasonality of metabolic syndrome in horses is not his work, but Dr. Donaldson's. ACTH was higher in Sept than other months. Dr. Walsh's field study confirmed this original work. Here's an abstract.

Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine pp. 217–222 | Volume 19, Issue 2 (March 2005)

Variation in Plasma Adrenocorticotropic Hormone Concentration and Dexamethasone Suppression Test Results with Season, Age, and Sex in Healthy Ponies and Horses

Mark T. Donaldson1, 2, Sue M. McDonnell1, Barbara J. Schanbacher1, Stephen V. Lamb1, Dianne McFarlane1, and Jill Beech1

The purpose of this study was to evaluate the variation in plasma adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) concentration and dexamethasone suppression test (DST) results with season, age, and sex in healthy, pony mares (n = 15) and pony stallions (n = 14) living under semiferal conditions and horse mares (n = 10) living at pasture. Plasma ACTH concentrations were measured in September 2002, and in January, May, and September 2003. DSTs were performed in January and September 2003. Plasma ACTH concentrations in September 2002 and September 2003 were similar and were significantly greater than in January and May (P < .001). Plasma ACTH concentration was within the reference range for 38 (97%) of 39 subjects in January, for 39 (100%) of 39 subjects in May, for 2 (5%) of 39 subjects in September 2002, and for 3 (8%) of 39 subjects in September 2003. DST results were within the reference range in all subjects in January and were within the reference range for 29 (74%) of 39 subjects in September 2003. Plasma cortisol concentration at the end of the DST was significantly greater in September than in January (P = .002). Age was positively correlated with plasma ACTH and plasma cortisol concentration at the beginning and end of the DST. Within the same season, plasma ACTH concentration in pony mares, pony stallions, and horse mares was not significantly different (P > .05). Seasonal changes in plasma ACTH concentration and DST results should be considered when interpreting endocrine test results.

[Lookout]

If you have indeed been trimming this horse for two years you should seriously consider turning him over to someone else (of course, NOT to whatever clown of an iron hanger was shoeing him before :eek:).
Seriously.


Are you now claiming to have x-ray vision? I've had more than one BFT completely surprised by what the rads revealed. Three of them to be exact. They too had your naive self assurance they could devine what the inside looked like by reading what they could see on the outside. They were WRONG!
Scary. The road to hell is paved with hubris. Lateral rotation can not be determined visually from the exterior.

[Katy Watts]

Kim,
In regards to experimental design: had you previously provided support underneath? If not, the silicon in addition to the Equicast is confounding your results. I am a firm believer in having constant support of the bone column for these metabolic type sinkers. If this is the first time, one could attribute the increased concavity to that.
Have any barefooters tried just the silicone with duct tape or boots to hold it in?
Katy

[irishcas]

Hi Katy:

The first cast application was put on without sole support. This time I'm trying the Silicone.

I've had Murray padded and booted 24/7 last year with improvement until the grass came in.

I'm trying to find a way to provide relief for the founders I get in the spring but eliminate the need for the owner to boot and pad the horses constantly. Many of my clients don't live with the horses on their property and are not the primary care giver. Boarding barn owners aren't always thrilled booting and padding a boarders horse.

I definitely think support is important I'm just trying to find the right items. I've got a firm foam type board, Vettec's Sil Pac and a few other items I'll try on Murray and another horse here on the farm.

This is just a 10 rat study, but interesting to me nonetheless. Thanks for the ideas.

I also think that having the owners on board with the no grass is going to make huge improvements for Murray as well. BTW, Murray's bloodwork : Insulin, T3, T4 ACTH have all been within the normal range when tested Winter and Summer.

Regards,

[Appassionato]

Currently xrays are not needed, position of the CB is easily determined based on the collateral grooves, sole and outline of CB.

:eek::eek::eek:

The horse has been laminitic (sorefooted) and no x-rays are needed? Wow.

What about the Equicast? Helloooooooooooooo can the naysayers read the subject line?

I'm not sure anyone can answer this other than how Katy and Mr. Pat have (thank you Katy and Pat!)...at least not in the way that you want them to.

There are still too many factors at play in regards with this horse in your care. Beginning with x-rays. I haven't seen them yet...where are they? Your website stated you have them up nest week in 2006...:confused: What were the results of metabolic testing? When was the blood drawn? What were the symptoms of the horse at that time? Did you retest when everything seemed good (could have been still "off" metabolically)?

The only thing I will defend about the former shoer of the horse Murray is that it looked like it was a several months old job. There were certainly problems with that job as shown, but Murray was also far overdue for reshoeing or trimming. I can't in good faith slight the farrier's work when the shoeing job looks that old. And maybe it wasn't that old...as well know is that the former farrier is "wrong."

Like Katy, I'd like to see what the other folks that have been using in regards to silicone. I've read where folks have poured the product into the boots, and the new product by Vettec has been discussed as well. Maybe some of these folks will chime in with their observations. Other pads as well (I don't mean to leave anything out), I've wondered who like which pads and why...but I'm really interested in hearing from any of the folks that have laminitic horses that are booted with pads. Basically, what pads are working for someone's X, Y, or Z horse.

FTR, Abby Bloxsom is a NICE and helpful lady (recommended in rcloisonne's post above).

[karenstandefer]

If you have indeed been trimming this horse for two years you should seriously consider turning him over to someone else (of course, NOT to whatever clown of an iron hanger was shoeing him before :eek:).

Actually, it has been over 3 years that she's been trimming him. She started in Dec '04.

Karen

[Auventera Two]

I don't think you really got to your point other than the subject of Bo really pisses you off. Which is fine, it doesn't bother me. I do find it outstanding that you claim I overpost about him, yet look at how much of the information you are so unclear on. Do "fractures" ring a bell?

What did bother me in this thread was that Kim's credibility has been questioned before (comments made about her website here and at other forums) and I'd like to see that stop. THAT'S why I asked the questions I did and hoped she'd see WHY I questioned. I want her experiment to go well and hopefully help horses out there that need the help. I have no reason to NOT want the best for the horses Kim is working with. I just disagreed with a few points and it was discussed.

What bothers me is that you continually try to compare your one founder case, who is also plagued with umpteen thousand other pathologies, to every other horse posted on this board. And it's ridiculous. The attitude gets a little old. If you're so interested in helping and sharing information, then expand your conversation beyond your own horse.

[Auventera Two]

I'll admit I didn't read all the back and forth about Bo. I regularly skip that kind of thing. I, for one, am glad Appass keeps reminding us about Bo. His case should serve as a huge caution to all of us about the harm we can cause if we let our ideas overcome good sense and the information out there about hoof function and health. There is no point in allowing opinions to drive us--we have to keep an open mind for anything "new to us" that can help or harm a horse. I was thinking that Equicast could be really helpful for a few horses I know, and now I'm thinking about what Pat said. Caution is a good thing.

Appass has been on a journey of learning that has helped many of us. What she has to say is not always comfortable, but we need to hear it and think about what she has learned and what Bo has been through. I have dealt with mechanical founder in a horse, but it was nowhere near as severe as what Bo suffered. Thank goodness for that! I also think it bears repeating for any horse owner who checks out these threads (heaven help them). New people log into COTH all the time and don't know the story.

I am very interested in what farriers have to say about Equicast. More thoughts/cautions?

But people need to keep in mind that only so much of the info can be applied to their own case. I get tired of the "But Jaye....." or "But Bo.....". The fact is, you CANNOT compare 2 founders together to that extent. You just can't. It's great to share info but a person needs to be open minded about things, even if it won't work for their own horse. My founder doesn't need Equipak and shoeing. Suzanne's does. Fine. Whatever he needs - DO IT. But you cannot compare Bo to other horses because there's just no comparison. The horse's pathologies go WAY beyond just his feet.

[J.D.]

rcloisonne.....There's a real farrier there (Abby Bloxsom) who has successfully used this stuff (and it is a current topic). She can provide you with many suggestions on how best to get this poor horse's feet in better order.

...


Send Abby my regards!:cool:

[J.D.]

Katy Watts-Jaye,
Dr. Walsh's paper has been taken off the internet because they are going to publish in a journal. The seasonality of metabolic syndrome in horses is not his work, but Dr. Donaldson's. ACTH was higher in Sept than other months. Dr. Walsh's field study confirmed this original work. Here's an abstract.



Thanks Ms. Katy, I get Donald Walsh and Donaldson mixed up. I have the paper but it is boxes in the basement from the move.

[J.D.]

irishcas-
The first cast application was put on without sole support. This time I'm trying the Silicone


Let's go back to "ALL Resources"~~~ sole support in the back 2/3s of any laminitic is standard protocol. I have Elasticon'ed / taped hundreds with putty for support... i.e. no shoes.


I've had Murray padded and booted 24/7 last year with improvement until the grass came in.

HMMMMMMM?








I'm trying to find a way to provide relief for the founders I get in the spring but eliminate the need for the owner to boot and pad the horses constantly. Many of my clients don't live with the horses on their property and are not the primary care giver. Boarding barn owners aren't always thrilled booting and padding a boarders horse.


Elasticon Tape will suffice for a few days. if the owners aren't willing to re-tape, they don't need a horse. The putty is preformed at the first application; re-usable and re-tapeable.






I definitely think support is important I'm just trying to find the right items. I've got a firm foam type board, Vettec's Sil Pac and a few other items I'll try on Murray and another horse here on the farm.


You have had, per screened latter posts, 3 plus years to "find" Murray's comfort zone and restore his feet to a functinal state. Per the pics, as most go by on forums, there is still convexing of soles, trauma outlines and dorsal toe wall infections of some sort.



This is just a 10 rat study, but interesting to me nonetheless. Thanks for the ideas.



Where are your controls for the study on these 10, ages, duties and so forth. Ad Homnieum facts are worhtless for publication to the masses.





I also think that having the owners on board with the no grass is going to make huge improvements for Murray as well. BTW, Murray's bloodwork : Insulin, T3, T4 ACTH have all been within the normal range when tested Winter and Summer.



As far as i can see and others you have accomplished "One Thing"~~ no grass.

[Auventera Two]

Let's go back to "ALL Resources"~~~ sole support in the back 2/3s of any laminitic is standard protocol. I have Elasticon'ed / taped hundreds with putty for support... i.e. no shoes.

To clarify - you mean acute laminitics, correct?

[J.D.]

Appassionato......The only thing I will defend about the former shoer of the horse Murray is that it looked like it was a several months old job. There were certainly problems with that job as shown, but Murray was also far overdue for reshoeing or trimming. I can't in good faith slight the farrier's work when the shoeing job looks that old. And maybe it wasn't that old...as well know is that the former farrier is "wrong."

....



I can slight it. Should at the very least and very basically used a rocker toe to the shoes applied. In this day and age a farrier or trimmer should know mechanics.

[J.D.]

Auventera Two-What bothers me is that you continually try to compare your one founder case, who is also plagued with umpteen thousand other pathologies, to every other horse posted on this board. And it's ridiculous. The attitude gets a little old. If you're so interested in helping and sharing information, then expand your conversation beyond your own horse


And how many "Sinkers" have you worked on?:eek:
One goes from the experiences that they are familar with.

[J.D.]

Auventera Two......The fact is, you CANNOT compare 2 founders together to that extent. You just can't. It's great to share info but a person needs to be open minded about things, even if it won't work for their own horse.

In the case of Murray I didn't even read the diatribe; just looked at his feet.





My founder doesn't need Equipak and shoeing. Suzanne's does. Fine. Whatever he needs - DO IT. But you cannot compare Bo to other horses because there's just no comparison. The horse's pathologies go WAY beyond just his feet.

I saw the rads in your case, the feet need some work if you and others are going to by the specs.

[Auventera Two]

I have not worked on any sinkers. I understand that Suzanne's only knowledge of founder is her own hore. No problem. But the problem comes from continual comparison of that one horse to all others. You just can't do that. And it really rubbed me the wrong way when she stated that she can't see Equicast working on any foundered horse "in theory." What the hell does that mean? :confused: She's basing it on the fact that she wouldn't use it on her horse. Fine. But if it works for another horse, then it works for that horse. I think we all know of Burney Chapman's legacy and he always said that no two founders are the same, regardless of how similiar they might appear, and rarely are two ever treated EXACTLY the same way.

And you're damned right my founder needs some work. You can't reverse 16 years of gross neglect overnight, or in a single year, or possibly ever. I never said she didn't need work. But I do NOT try to compare her to the other founder cases addressed on this board. They're all differnt and that is my only point here.

[J.D.]

To clarify - you mean acute laminitics, correct?


NO! Barefooted horses and ponies under my care.

Protocols are a means to and end. I buy cases of Elasticon and Advanced Cushion Support putty.

Something i don't understand is the rigidity of the barefoot protocols and the demeanor of people practicing said protocols. If one is a "True" hoof care provider they will have ingenious ways to make tried and true methodologies work. Those methodologies have been proven to work and help our equids. Nowhere is it written that tape and putty will not suffice as well as a Sigafoos, Redden Ultimate or EDSS package.:no::no::yes:

But it is written that sole support in the back 2/3s of a foot will help a laminitic!!!!!!!!!!!

[J.D.]

Auventera Two- have not worked on any sinkers.

Then your comments relative to this discussion is for nil; IMO.




I understand that Suzanne's only knowledge of founder is her own hore. No problem. But the problem comes from continual comparison of that one horse to all others. You just can't do that. And it really rubbed me the wrong way when she stated that she can't see Equicast working on any foundered horse "in theory." What the hell does that mean? :confused: She's basing it on the fact that she wouldn't use it on her horse. Fine. But if it works for another horse, then it works for that horse. I think we all know of Burney Chapman's legacy and he always said that no two founders are the same, regardless of how similiar they might appear, and rarely are two ever treated EXACTLY the same way.

Laminitics may not be the same but comparable in eitiology.


And you're damned right my founder needs some work. You can't reverse 16 years of gross neglect overnight, or in a single year, or possibly ever. I never said she didn't need work. But I do NOT try to compare her to the other founder cases addressed on this board. They're all differnt and that is my only point here


Now you are getting emotional; understandble.
I agree all are different but most have a demonstrated eitology that can be dissected and applied into and for the horse's need(s).

[Appassionato]

One goes from the experiences that they are familar with.

Exactly. I can't speak on other people's cases. That's the other person's job. Not to mention I can't remember every specific detail of every case I've seen! But I have seen enough that were similar to mine: the horses couldn't deal with sole pressure and only certain "things" seemed to keep the said horse(s) comfortable. I say "horses" and "horse(s)" because one application that worked for one hurts another. Some want equipak, some can't tolerate it at all. Some want magic cushion, and so on. Everyone sharing experiences helps everyone else get to some answers. ;)

Maybe some Bo voodoo dolls to stick pins in will help some folks get over this rough patch? :winkgrin:

[matryoshka]

Protocols are a means to and end. I buy cases of Elasticon and Advanced Cushion Support putty.This putty might work for my flat-footed boy who (I think) was laminitic during acute lameness from a leg abscess. He used to be trotting and cantering on rocks in boots with no pads, and now he's uncomfortable on rocks at a trot. I can't tell if it is the change in boots (went from Epics to Bares) or possible laminitis during his injury. Putty might help. I was thinking of putting leather pads in his boots to see how he goes. He's fine with the thin pads that come from Easy Care, but they wear out really fast, especially at the mileage we rack up.

Horse is totally fine in the field barefoot and has been acting like his normal, acrobatic self.

BTW, this same horse had convex soles when he came off the track as a 4-year old, and it took me quite a while to figure out how to trim his feet properly (when I first finished the farrier course and before I started trimming for others). Thanks to him, I really had to research and experiment with trimming and boots. If he hadn't been so tough, I wouldn't have learned nearly as much as I have. Still on a quest for knowledge--about him and all the horses I trim. I'm also thinking that Equicast might work really well for an endurance ride that has lots of rocks, since the cast is rigid enough to give him more support than bendy boots. Still thinking through the options and glad to know there are more options than I had realized!

I trim one sinker who recently had another bout of laminitis, and after reading this thread, I might get some putty for her as well. I know the owner will be conscientious about keeping it taped to the feet. He just really doesn't want to shoe the mare. I keep asking him to get rads, but he hasn't done it so far.

[irishcas]

Appassionato......The only thing I will defend about the former shoer of the horse Murray is that it looked like it was a several months old job.

App:

The shoes on Murray (in the photos) had only been on for 6 weeks. Find fault or not, that isn't the issue. I'm not talking about the shoe job anymore.

The xrays that were taken were from 2005. Vet did take more in 2006, never got them to me and has since stopped being a vet in this area.

[irishcas]

I trim one sinker who recently had another bout of laminitis, and after reading this thread, I might get some putty for her as well. I know the owner will be conscientious about keeping it taped to the feet. He just really doesn't want to shoe the mare. I keep asking him to get rads, but he hasn't done it so far.

Ooo get pix and share if you are brave enough :)

Regards

[Auventera Two]

Maybe some Bo voodoo dolls to stick pins in will help some folks get over this rough patch? :winkgrin:

Why on earth do you think that people would want to inflict more pain on the poor beast? I think he has enough to deal with. Your comment is totally out in left field. My comments have nothing to do with your poor horse. They have to do with you continually comparing him to other foundered horses, and now attacking Kim for using Equicast on the cases she treats, based on your information on your one single case. Where the heck is the logic in THAT?! :confused: I think you are totally misconstruing the point I am attempting to make. Perhaps I'm not making it clear enough? So I'll say it one more time - you cannot compare Bo to other horses and say something has no theoretic application because it would never work for your horse.

I don't use anything on my founder because she's sound and happy without it. But that doesn't mean that other horses cannot benefit, or don't need a specific shoeing package or protocol in order to be comfortable and sound. Whatever works for each case is what should be done. I can't use Libbey as a guage because that mare is FAR more sound than many founders with less damage than her. Each horse is different. I just remember that her success or her soundness isn't indicative of the level of soundness another horse may have managed with the same protocol.

Jay - why do you say I have no business in this conversation because I haven't got specific experience with sinkers? The topic is on equicast or PHW for laminitic horses. And I believe I said if it works, it works. Great, use it. I would too. Not sure why I have to have experience with sinkers as a prerequisite for the opinion that - all founders are different and what works for one may or may not work for another. But...whatever. :confused:

[Appassionato]

Why on earth do you think that people would want to inflict more pain on the poor beast? I think he has enough to deal with. Your comment is totally out in left field. My comments have nothing to do with your poor horse.

Would you like a Suzanne voodoo doll to go with the one of Bo? Would that make you feel better?

They have to do with you continually comparing him to other foundered horses, and now attacking Kim for using Equicast on the cases she treats, based on your information on your one single case. Where the heck is the logic in THAT?! :confused:

I didn't attack Kim for using Equicast. I told Kim she'll get called out later for her experiment having so many holes in it. Looks like I was right, too.

I think you are totally misconstruing the point I am attempting to make. Perhaps I'm not making it clear enough? So I'll say it one more time - you cannot compare Bo to other horses and say something has no theoretic application because it would never work for your horse.

No, you've made your point. Shoot, I'll even offer free shipping if it will make you happy!

Speaking of misconstruing points, I gave reasons as to why I wouldn't use the product (hint: there's other founders out there than just Libbey) and I also thought Kim would have her credibility challenged...AGAIN.

I don't use anything on my founder because she's sound and happy without it. But that doesn't mean that other horses cannot benefit, or don't need a specific shoeing package or protocol in order to be comfortable and sound. Whatever works for each case is what should be done.

Yes, but this isn't about Libbey.

I can't use Libbey as a guage because that mare is FAR more sound than many founders with less damage than her. Each horse is different. I just remember that her success or her soundness isn't indicative of the level of soundness another horse may have managed with the same protocol.

OK...but this isn't about Libbey.

Jay - why do you say I have no business in this conversation because I haven't got specific experience with sinkers? The topic is on equicast or PHW for laminitic horses. And I believe I said if it works, it works. Great, use it. I would too. Not sure why I have to have experience with sinkers as a prerequisite for the opinion that - all founders are different and what works for one may or may not work for another. But...whatever. :confused:

Murray is a sinker. Murray might require something different than your Libbey did.

[Auventera Two]

Kim isn't exactly conducting a scientific experiment to be published on the pages of a medical journal. She's just sharing her personal experiences on a product. There's hardly a need to get all up in her face over it. Sheesh. If you don't think you can learn anything from her personal experiences, then just dismiss it and forget about it. Nobody says you have to use Equicast. I am just bewildered at the attitude and the attacks on what was supposed to be a product review. I don't believe Kim ever said anything about this being a scientific experiment with absolute conclusions drawn and certainties determined that will pertain to EVERY founder in the world. If she did, I must have missed it.

And you're right - this isn't about Libbey. And it isn't about Bo either. It's about a certain product helping some horses. If it helps them, then who are you or I to say this has no application for that horse?

So in conclusion, what is your opinion on the report that some horses have seen improvement with this product? My opinion is that if it works, great, use it. :D

[irishcas]

I told Kim she'll get called out later for her experiment having so many holes in it. Looks like I was right, too.

Actually you are not right :) The B**tching that is going on is about my trimming, nothing to do with the experiment or the Equicast.

But lets not forget Jaye etc feel that shoeing will cure Murray, shoes are miracles!

Nothing against you App but Bo's feet still look like crap too, unless you've posted newer photos I haven't seen in awhile. Were the shoes meant to cure what ails him, I don't think so :)

I don't mean this rude to you, but I love the double standards around here. I will continue to do my trim which works on horses.

BTW, the xray comment got blown out of context. I recommend xrays to clients and get them a lot, use them as a guide when necessary. I meant Murray doesn't need new xrays right now. His feet are Effed Up (nothing to do with trimming). I don't need the xrays right now to tell me how to trim.

Regards,

[Appassionato]

Actually you are not right :) The B**tching that is going on is about my trimming, nothing to do with the experiment or the Equicast.

No, folks have criticized the fact you think the horse does not need x-rays right now. They feel differently about taking a knife to sinker's soles without x-rays. They also questioned the horse's metabolic status.

But lets not forget Jaye etc feel that shoeing will cure Murray, shoes are miracles!

Nothing against you App but Bo's feet still look like crap too, unless you've posted newer photos I haven't seen in awhile. Were the shoes meant to cure what ails him, I don't think so :)

This isn't about Bo, remember? Would sending certificates of authenticity with the voodoo dolls help?

Since YOU brought Bo up, I've always laughed about Bo's "wonky feet" and I've got x-rays to back up progress...where are yours? Do you have any x-rays of this horse? From any year? Or another case to mention that has something with some "bite" to it?

I don't mean this rude to you, but I love the double standards around here. I will continue to do my trim which works on horses.

That's what I was talking about in the beginning of this thread! The hypocrisy! The "Let's beat up farriers, but I don't have to prove crap to anyone" attitude. It also lacks that "sharing of information" you described in the beginning of this thread.

BTW, the xray comment got blown out of context. I recommend xrays to clients and get them a lot, use them as a guide when necessary. I meant Murray doesn't need new xrays right now. His feet are Effed Up (nothing to do with trimming). I don't need the xrays right now to tell me how to trim.

If the feet are a mess, then why are you saying you don't need x-rays at this time? People questioned this, so tell us about your rat. The when's, why's, and so forth. Give us the "Update" you were thrilled to tell about. Just don't be all that surprised when people want facts.

[Appassionato]

Kim isn't exactly conducting a scientific experiment to be published on the pages of a medical journal. She's just sharing her personal experiences on a product. There's hardly a need to get all up in her face over it. Sheesh. If you don't think you can learn anything from her personal experiences, then just dismiss it and forget about it. Nobody says you have to use Equicast. I am just bewildered at the attitude and the attacks on what was supposed to be a product review. I don't believe Kim ever said anything about this being a scientific experiment with absolute conclusions drawn and certainties determined that will pertain to EVERY founder in the world. If she did, I must have missed it.

And you're right - this isn't about Libbey. And it isn't about Bo either. It's about a certain product helping some horses. If it helps them, then who are you or I to say this has no application for that horse?

Since this isn't about Libbey or Bo, is there any specific reason you keep bringing them up?

So in conclusion, what is your opinion on the report that some horses have seen improvement with this product? My opinion is that if it works, great, use it. :D

Sure I'll give my opinion...good for them! Especially if they bothered to find out what happened to the horse in the FIRST place! you know, if the horse rotated/sunk, has metabolic problems, and etc.

[Lookout]

BTW, the xray comment got blown out of context. I recommend xrays to clients and get them a lot, use them as a guide when necessary. I meant Murray doesn't need new xrays right now. His feet are Effed Up (nothing to do with trimming). I don't need the xrays right now to tell me how to trim.

Hmm, I thought xrays were unnecessary because the position of the coffin bone could be determined from the collateral grooves.

[irishcas]

Yes that is true, I have 2 sets of xrays from Murray in 05 and 06. I know where his CB is based on being able to SEE it in the sole, the depth of the CG's etc.

For most of my clients horses I do insist on xrays when dealing with severe pathologies.

[J.D.]

matryoshka..... I trim one sinker who recently had another bout of laminitis, and after reading this thread, I might get some putty for her as well. I know the owner will be conscientious about keeping it taped to the feet. He just really doesn't want to shoe the mare. I keep asking him to get rads, but he hasn't done it so far...


-Make sure the putty is warm.
-Make sure when you form the putty that it is mixed well, no streaks of white.
-Make sure that the putty doesn't go beyond the point of the frog.

-Make sure one makes a wedge, comparable to the leg and foot conformations.
-Make sure that tape is not on hairline or cords the heels bulbs.

Good luck.

BTW, we are looking for FOOT MASS!!!! Foot Mass is leaving sole, healthy frog and a good roll to the toe..... Key is foot mass, that means knifing protocols are not warranted in the foot just the commissures; Please.

I think there is where most mistakes are made with a lot of barefooted horses and ponies; people knife to much. Thus eliminating foot mass because they want to see live sole.

[J.D.]

Auventera Two.......Jay - why do you say I have no business in this conversation because I haven't got specific experience with sinkers?

You answered part of your own question.



The topic is on equicast or PHW for laminitic horses. And I believe I said if it works, it works. Great, use it. I would too. Not sure why I have to have experience with sinkers as a prerequisite for the opinion that - all founders are different and what works for one may or may not work for another. But...whatever. :confused:

If it works it is real~~~Tom Ivers. I am just going by the rads of your horse that needs some work.

[J.D.]

irishcas-Actually you are not right :) The B**tching that is going on is about my trimming, nothing to do with the experiment or the Equicast.

Yes it was about your trimming and little to no progression of Murray's situation. The experiment is ad hominem at best.








But lets not forget Jaye etc feel that shoeing will cure Murray, shoes are miracles!

Where did i say "shoes would cure Murray"? They would be an option. You did not read thoroughly, "I have horses and ponies that are kept(maintained bare foot)".

I also said that "you are not using all available information at one's disposal".







Nothing against you App but Bo's feet still look like crap too, unless you've posted newer photos I haven't seen in awhile. Were the shoes meant to cure what ails him, I don't think so :)

She is riding her horse in little over a years time. What about Murray?:eek::eek:








I don't mean this rude to you, but I love the double standards around here. I will continue to do my trim which works on horses.

Your not rude at all. You see and perceive what you believe is and will make Murray comfortable. Good.
But after a few years without substantial improvement, a protocol change or mindset maybe in order.




BTW, the xray comment got blown out of context. I recommend xrays to clients and get them a lot, use them as a guide when necessary.

When Necessary? In critical lameness situations rads are pertinent tools of any hoof care provider. Good before trim and good after trim rads are a necessity. If not, one is slighting themselves, the owner and most of all the horse; IMO.




... meant Murray doesn't need new xrays right now. His feet are Effed Up (nothing to do with trimming). I don't need the xrays right now to tell me how to trim.

X-rays of before and after trims will give one insight to make sure that the makers on the bottom of the foot are true to form. In my practice I like redundancy. Checks and balances!!!!!
But I am getting old and my X-Ray vision isn't what it used to be!!!:eek::eek:

[irishcas]

people knife to much. Thus eliminating foot mass because they want to see live sole.

Not all barefooters. Many of us promote honoring the foot and leaving what is there. I also see a lot of Farriers do the same thing. They take out too much bar, sole and frog and the horses are ouchy thus they "need shoes".

[J.D.]

irishcas-Yes that is true, I have 2 sets of xrays from Murray in 05 and 06. I know where his CB is based on being able to SEE it in the sole, the depth of the CG's etc


Can we see them; please.


For most of my clients horses I do insist on xrays when dealing with severe pathologies.


If one knows the markers in the foot why use them? I am getting the feeling that your trying to squash to many fires here. First you don't need rads and then you do, but don't use the rads for trimming of before and after...... your confusing me. Please explain or outline your reasons for rads, why you do and do not use them???? Your logic is flawed; maybe?:confused::confused::confused:

[J.D.]

Not all barefooters. Many of us promote honoring the foot and leaving what is there. I also see a lot of Farriers do the same thing. They take out too much bar, sole and frog and the horses are ouchy thus they "need shoes".

Did i say "all bare foot trimmers or all farriers"? I said "some". No one is trying to bash you or other trimmers. If you will slow down and read thoroughly I bashed the farrier in Murray's shoe pic and i will and am trying to help you; HELP the HORSE!!.:cool:

[matryoshka]

-Make sure the putty is warm.
-Make sure when you form the putty that it is mixed well, no streaks of white.
-Make sure that the putty doesn't go beyond the point of the frog.

-Make sure one makes a wedge, comparable to the leg and foot conformations.
-Make sure that tape is not on hairline or cords the heels bulbs.

Good luck.

BTW, we are looking for FOOT MASS!!!! Foot Mass is leaving sole, healthy frog and a good roll to the toe..... Key is foot mass, that means knifing protocols are not warranted in the foot just the commissures; Please.

I think there is where most mistakes are made with a lot of barefooted horses and ponies; people knife to much. Thus eliminating foot mass because they want to see live sole.Thanks Jaye. I'm not sure I understand the wedge part. Create a wedge that properly aligns P1, P2 and P3? I'll be shooting in the dark and eyeballing if that is what you mean. No rads. Client's vet is also laid up from injury, and I'm not really qualified to read a rad to get the wedge correct. I'd be happy to work with a vet if I could on this one. If you mean a different kind of wedge, would you please explain?

And thanks for the reminder not to remove sole. I don't. Other than keeping the bars in good shape, I don't trim sole at all unless a callous is poking beyond the level of the wall for what the rest of the foot needs. (OK, I also sometimes to find live sole when lowering heels so I don't go too far. Usually only have to do that one time). I've found that once the breakover is correct, no callous forms, so it is only for the first couple of trims that I do this. It is a bit at odds with trying to get the soles thicker, but I work on getting the mechanics of motion correct and then go for sole depth.

I'm still thinking of trying KC's product on Butch. It sounds like it would be best to add a pad to protect his soles--with putty?

I found a small bit of bruising at the very front of his sole today when I rasped the toe back on the foot that bore the brunt of his lameness. There's no visible bruising on his other feet. He's fine trotting booted on all surfaces except rocks with a hard base. He's averaging 8 mph at the trot during conditioning rides, so he's generally pretty comfortable. I am concerned about his increased sensitivity when trotting and cantering on hard rock, so we are walking on those surfaces for now. We also don't trot on pavement--might have to during a competition, but I don't train on it.

[J.D.]

Did i say "all bare foot trimmers or all farriers"? I said "some". No one is trying to bash you or other trimmers. If you will slow down and read thoroughly I bashed the farrier in Murray's shoe pic and i will and am trying to help you; HELP the HORSE!!.:cool:

I apologize I said "most". Should have said "some". Understandable response.:uhoh:

[J.D.]

matryoshka-Thanks Jaye. I'm not sure I understand the wedge part. Create a wedge that properly aligns P1, P2 and P3? I'll be shooting in the dark and eyeballing if that is what you mean. No rads. Client's vet is also laid up from injury, and I'm not really qualified to read a rad to get the wedge correct. I'd be happy to work with a vet if I could on this one. If you mean a different kind of wedge, would you please explain?

Your welcome.
A small wedge never hurt a horse if one has sole support, in which one would have using putty.





And thanks for the reminder not to remove sole. I don't. Other than keeping the bars in good shape, I don't trim sole at all unless a callous is poking beyond the level of the wall for what the rest of the foot needs. (OK, I also sometimes to find live sole when lowering heels so I don't go too far. Usually only have to do that one time). I've found that once the breakover is correct, no callous forms, so it is only for the first couple of trims that I do this. It is a bit at odds with trying to get the soles thicker, but I work on getting the mechanics of motion correct and then go for sole depth.


getting a horse's mechanics dialed in can be tricky. Once obtained, things get easy!!!:yes::cool:



I'm still thinking of trying KC's product on Butch. It sounds like it would be best to add a pad to protect his soles--with putty?

I would use putty. There are varying hardness es of putties, the pink is cute but can be to soft. The blue is hard, could cause a problem. I use the gray from Nanric. the resilient properties are just right~~ sounds like a kids story~~ Ha!



I found a small bit of bruising at the very front of his sole today when I rasped the toe back on the foot that bore the brunt of his lameness. There's no visible bruising on his other feet. He's fine trotting booted on all surfaces except rocks with a hard base. He's averaging 8 mph at the trot during conditioning rides, so he's generally pretty comfortable. I am concerned about his increased sensitivity when trotting and cantering on hard rock, so we are walking on those surfaces for now. We also don't trot on pavement--might have to during a competition, but I don't train on it

In a sound horse, trauma/hemorrhage maybe indicator of a incident that happened 4-8 weeks previous. In a lame horse, there maybe a balance problem associated with an underlying lesion.
Unilateral trauma is an indicator, for me, of a lesion or gait lesion(fault).

[J.D.]

matryoshka....... I am concerned about his increased sensitivity when trotting and cantering on hard rock, so we are walking on those surfaces for now. ........


In addition~~~ any hoof care practitioner needs a good pair of hoof testers. Learn to differentiate between positive and a false positive responses.

These are a good set:
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/hoof%20testers/George041.jpg

There are others on the market; the little ones take too much effort and may cause a "false positive" response. The "great big" ones made by GE are ridiculous for investigation.
I like small ends on the testers, one can localize where the problem(s) are.

[Auventera Two]

Not all barefooters. Many of us promote honoring the foot and leaving what is there. I also see a lot of Farriers do the same thing. They take out too much bar, sole and frog and the horses are ouchy thus they "need shoes".

I've had this experience too. More often than I care to think about actually. I always thought it was SOP for a horse to be "ouchie" for 2 or 3 days, or even a week after a trim. Since this was pretty much the only experience I'd ever had with every farrier we'd ever used, I thought it was normal.

I trim a gelding for a lady who has very nice feet. She said to me - you know, I love it that I can just ride my horse the day after a trim. I said that she SHOULD be able to. There's no excuse for soring up a horse from a trim. I don't charge per pound of hoof cut off. I charge for balancing the hoof and bringing it into parameters that are correct for that horse. If you take off X amount of hoof and the horse can't be ridden for a week, then you stepped outside the parameters for that horse.

It always amazes me that some owners seem to want to see a big chunk of hoof nipped from heel to heel to make sure they're gettin' their money's worth. What's the logic in that?

For the life of me I cannot figure out why this is so hard for some people to grasp. And yes, some trimmers too. :confused:

[Auventera Two]

In addition~~~ any hoof care practitioner needs a good pair of hoof testers. Learn to differentiate between positive and a false positive responses.

These are a good set:
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/hoof%20testers/George041.jpg

There are others on the market; the little ones take too much effort and may cause a "false positive" response. The "great big" ones made by GE are ridiculous for investigation.
I like small ends on the testers, one can localize where the problem(s) are.

This is great advice. I use hoof testers all the time. It's just part of the protocol for me. I bought a very expensive pair with graduated marks so I know exactly how much pressure I'm applying and can be consistent every time. There's no excuse to have a trimming bag or box without at least one GOOD set of testers.

[karenstandefer]

There are plenty of times that I see trimmers and farriers not take enough, especially of frog and bar. Many of them now leave it all to "straighten" out for itself. You'll get a much healthier foot and faster if you remove the correct amount of bar (the broken or layed over stuff) and frog (the dead stuff). That goes for sole as well. Excessive, dead sole hampers healing and proper hoof function. Although, there are times to leave it alone as well. One has to know the difference. It seems to me that there are way too many trimmers who don't understand the difference and err on the side of being too conservative. Two of the horses we've discussed on this thread come to mind when I say that.

[longview_bc]

I've had this experience too. More often than I care to think about actually. I always thought it was SOP for a horse to be "ouchie" for 2 or 3 days, or even a week after a trim. Since this was pretty much the only experience I'd ever had with every farrier we'd ever used, I thought it was normal.

I trim a gelding for a lady who has very nice feet. She said to me - you know, I love it that I can just ride my horse the day after a trim. I said that she SHOULD be able to. There's no excuse for soring up a horse from a trim. I don't charge per pound of hoof cut off. I charge for balancing the hoof and bringing it into parameters that are correct for that horse. If you take off X amount of hoof and the horse can't be ridden for a week, then you stepped outside the parameters for that horse.

It always amazes me that some owners seem to want to see a big chunk of hoof nipped from heel to heel to make sure they're gettin' their money's worth. What's the logic in that?

For the life of me I cannot figure out why this is so hard for some people to grasp. And yes, some trimmers too. :confused:

Hi all,

Ah yes the barefoot broken record playing the same worn out farrier hurtin song, squeak, squeak. It's funny when you talk of your vast experience and things you have seen it makes me wonder what part of Rumania your from.

Kevin

[J.D.]

Auventera Two......

I trim a gelding for a lady who has very nice feet. She said to me - you know, I love it that I can just ride my horse the day after a trim. I said that she SHOULD be able to. There's no excuse for soring up a horse from a trim. I don't charge per pound of hoof cut off. I charge for balancing the hoof and bringing it into parameters that are correct for that horse. If you take off X amount of hoof and the horse can't be ridden for a week, then you stepped outside the parameters for that horse.


Good!!!





It always amazes me that some owners seem to want to see a big chunk of hoof nipped from heel to heel to make sure they're gettin' their money's worth. What's the logic in that?

people like to see production for their money.




For the life of me I cannot figure out why this is so hard for some people to grasp. And yes, some trimmers too. :confused:

My principle~~~~ "Send away from the shop floor better than they came to YA!!":D

[J.D.]

Hi all,

Ah yes the barefoot broken record playing the same worn out farrier hurtin song, squeak, squeak. It's funny when you talk of your vast experience and things you have seen it makes me wonder what part of Rumania your from.

Kevin


Trying to have a civil discussion here Kevin. I might categorically describe your comment as being on the "other" end of the zealot spectrum:eek::yes:

[matryoshka]

Thanks Jaye, sounds like a plan. I believe the bruising in the RF toe is because he was not putting the weight on the LH for almost 4 weeks over Christmas due to a nasty puncture wound followed by an abscess high inside the left hind leg. That's what caused the rings that may or may not indicate a bout of laminitis.

After saying I don't trim soles, I ended up removing quite a bit today on a horse that was retaining some! Whenever I say "I don't do..." I end up doing it within the week. The horse in question had been off a bit and was not able to balance while I trimmed. I admit that two of his feet got away from me the past two trims. Corrected it today (and found an abscess). Horse felt much better.

BTW, I do have hoof testers. I think Butch is still suffering the aftermath of the severe lameness. Appass mentioned that his senstitivty on rocks could be a sign that he had suffered some laminitis while laid up--it hadn't occurred to me before that. When he was so laim, I worried about supporting-leg founder, but I thought we had avoided that. Still, I want to take good care of his feet. I've grown out the feet of quite a few post-laminitic and foundered horses. They usually do pretty well. My major concern with Butch is that we are conditioning for our first endurance season, and I don't want to break him down over something preventable.

I appreciate the advice.

I'm procrastinating about ordering KC's stuff. It takes me a while to think things through.

[J.D.]

matryoshkaThanks Jaye, sounds like a plan. I believe the bruising in the RF toe is because he was not putting the weight on the LH for almost 4 weeks over Christmas due to a nasty puncture wound followed by an abscess high inside the left hind leg. That's what caused the rings that may or may not indicate a bout of laminitis.

It's that Contralateral thing mentioned here.:yes::) Any injury that requires a long lay-up time a laminitic protocol should be implemented; "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".




After saying I don't trim soles, I ended up removing quite a bit today on a horse that was retaining some! Whenever I say "I don't do..." I end up doing it within the week. The horse in question had been off a bit and was not able to balance while I trimmed. I admit that two of his feet got away from me the past two trims. Corrected it today (and found an abscess). Horse felt much better.

Retained sole can make some sore~~~ but ya got the horse "dialed back in"; good!




BTW, I do have hoof testers. I think Butch is still suffering the aftermath of the severe lameness. Appass mentioned that his senstitivty on rocks could be a sign that he had suffered some laminitis while laid up--it hadn't occurred to me before that. When he was so laim, I worried about supporting-leg founder, but I thought we had avoided that. Still, I want to take good care of his feet. I've grown out the feet of quite a few post-laminitic and foundered horses. They usually do pretty well. My major concern with Butch is that we are conditioning for our first endurance season, and I don't want to break him down over something preventable.

Maybe some rads would have some relevance? Most competitors that have concerns will cover all bases before competitions.:yes:


I appreciate the advice.


Your Welcome!


I'm procrastinating about ordering KC's stuff. It takes me a while to think things through.

Get a set of rads and formulate a plan first.

[Auventera Two]

Hi all,

Ah yes the barefoot broken record playing the same worn out farrier hurtin song, squeak, squeak. It's funny when you talk of your vast experience and things you have seen it makes me wonder what part of Rumania your from.

Kevin

Did you mean Romania? :confused:

Well, you're down to 2 guesses! What will they be? :D