Allbreeds Pedigree Database

[ltw]

Tonight for the very first time I just happened to take a look at the Allbreeds Pedigree database. To my amazement, someone has taken the liberty and alot of time to load many of my horses onto this database. I found about 6 of my mares, and many of the horses I have bred over the years. I also found the stallion I owned.

The information on a number of my mares is incorrect, the birth years wrong, and the mare lines and damsire lines wrong. They then loaded the foals I bred from this mare also with the wrong damsire line inaccuracies so it perpetuates.

ONe mare was put on this site under her USDF name, but with the correct pedigree. She is registered in the Hanoverian registry under a different name, but it was definitely my mare. So I am curious who is doing this.

In some cases, there were also wrong photos associated with the horses themselves or their ancestors. Has anyone else had this experience? I am wondering how this happens?

The inaccuracies create credibility issues with the integrity of the database. Also, I am wondering why someone would do this without asking permission of the owner or breeder. At least it would be nice if owner or breeder knew this information was being loaded so the correct information could be provided.

How do you track the persons doing this?

[Simkie]

ANYONE can add ANYTHING to the database. It's a free-for-all.

I don't think there's anything you can do about it.

[Dazednconfused]

Well yeah - we all know it's not a credible database :confused: Not sure why people would think otherwise since it's obvious that anyone can go in and edit as they please. Just go in and change what you see is inaccurate. No big deal...very easy to do. I use it for quick lookups and the hypothetical mating feature and I correct inaccuracies I see.

[erinwillow]

Well, I happen enjoy and use the allbreed database quite frequently. The good part about "anyone adding anything" is that if it is indeed incorrect, than just CHANGE IT!:winkgrin: You can click on "edit horse information" and voila-credible information at your fingertips :yes: Also, from a breeding perspective it really is an invaluable tool. . equip with the "hypo mating" and "linebreeding" tabs, *so* cool and WAY FUN!!

[Sassenach]

I've been attempting to make at least the Connemara stuff as accurate as I possibly can. Slowly been loading my studbooks onto it... sloowly :) I always make sure to cross-reference/double check with different pedigree sites/my books.

[nsm]

I as well have worked on adding horses and making corrections, here is another data base-

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/index.htm?z=OJur3R

Nancy

[Home Again Farm]

That is the pity about that database. Anyone can play. Someone went into one of my own mare's pedigrees far, far back and put horses that had similar names, but were born about 60 years later than the ones that I had researched. What a flaming mess. :no:

[talloaks]

Laura, I had noticed on the same website that someone had changed the pedigrees of my mares which resulted in changed pedigrees for their offspring. I couldn't figure out who could have done such a thing, but perhaps someone with too much time on their hands and a distorted mind! Think I better check on my mares to see if they have been messed with again since it was very time consuming to get things correct. Good luck with your pedigrees!

[carosello]

I think what can happen is that for any mare or stallion there might be 10-15 different options and someone along the line chooses the wrong one and screws things up by making changes. I have had this happen also and fixed it but I havent even bothered to see if its still correct. I often wonder if the people with the Sim Farms go in there and use it for their own sites.

[Foxtrot's]

I had that, too. I think it was the stallion owner - but in my case it was correct. Saved me the bother.

[eqsiu]

I found that Man o' War's dam was a QH born in the 50's...so I changed it to the correct Mahubah. :D I t pays to enter the horses yourself so you can be sure your information is accurate.

[Sassenach]

I found that Man o' War's dam was a QH born in the 50's...so I changed it to the correct Mahubah. :D I t pays to enter the horses yourself so you can be sure your information is accurate.

Ditto :yes: I really do love the site and think it's a great resource - did I mention I'm in the process of entering 13000 Connemaras onto it? :eek: So far a good number are already on it or if not all I have to do is go back a generation and that's tat. :yes:

[jodyb]

It's interesting that this thread popped up as I entered my yearlings into the all breed database yesterday. When I looked at my RPSI filly's pedigree I was amazed that they had a picture of her and they thought she was gray :eek:(nothing wrong with grays, it's just she's bay) I looked at the picture and she was a gray TB from the late 1800's :lol: I discovered that while I thought I had not clicked on any of the addl info stuff, somehow I must have. I edited pretty quick :yes: Just goes to show how easily mistakes can be made in the database!

[ltw]

And here in is where the problem lies.

If any one can change the database - what credibility does it hold? I believe that the owner or breeder should be the last and final set of changes to a horse that they own or breed. This does not seem to be the case. The mare lines in most of my mares are wrong. The birth years are wrong on my stallion, the names are wrong.

Someone posted a photo of the damsire of my stallion. There are professional photo representatives of the damsire for puplic distribution.

What appears as a photo of my stallion's damsire is a very fat, very overweight, very old, very dirty horse standing in a field eating grass with other horses, not what you would do with a breeding stallion. It is not the previously "for public consumption photo of this sire". There is great doubt in my mind this is the stallion.

I know the breeder, I know the raiser and rider of the stallion, I know the owner, this photo was not posted by them, and does not appear to be the stallion. How is it that anyone can post a photo of a horse owned by someone else, particularly a breeding stallion. Who can vouch for the validity of the photos?

[chunky munky]

Tonight for the very first time I just happened to take a look at the Allbreeds Pedigree database. To my amazement, someone has taken the liberty and alot of time to load many of my horses onto this database. I found about 6 of my mares, and many of the horses I have bred over the years. I also found the stallion I owned.

The information on a number of my mares is incorrect, the birth years wrong, and the mare lines and damsire lines wrong. They then loaded the foals I bred from this mare also with the wrong damsire line inaccuracies so it perpetuates.

ONe mare was put on this site under her USDF name, but with the correct pedigree. She is registered in the Hanoverian registry under a different name, but it was definitely my mare. So I am curious who is doing this.

In some cases, there were also wrong photos associated with the horses themselves or their ancestors. Has anyone else had this experience? I am wondering how this happens?

The inaccuracies create credibility issues with the integrity of the database. Also, I am wondering why someone would do this without asking permission of the owner or breeder. At least it would be nice if owner or breeder knew this information was being loaded so the correct information could be provided.

How do you track the persons doing this?

Who cares who did it. Fix it and put your own good info up there. I haven't seen photos on this website. Just fix it. Nobody died...

[Dazednconfused]

And here in is where the problem lies.

If any one can change the database - what credibility does it hold? I believe that the owner or breeder should be the last and final set of changes to a horse that they own or breed. This does not seem to be the case. The mare lines in most of my mares are wrong. The birth years are wrong on my stallion, the names are wrong.

Someone posted a photo of the damsire of my stallion. There are professional photo representatives of the damsire for puplic distribution.

What appears as a photo of my stallion's damsire is a very fat, very overweight, very old, very dirty horse standing in a field eating grass with other horses, not what you would do with a breeding stallion. It is not the previously "for public consumption photo of this sire". There is great doubt in my mind this is the stallion.

I know the breeder, I know the raiser and rider of the stallion, I know the owner, this photo was not posted by them, and does not appear to be the stallion. How is it that anyone can post a photo of a horse owned by someone else, particularly a breeding stallion. Who can vouch for the validity of the photos?

You're kinda missing the point here. It doesn't have any credibility. It never has claimed to be the end all of correct information. Anyone who uses it knows the good and bad information it can have and that it should be taken with a grain of salt.

How is it? Because, anyone can edit the database, which everyone knows going into it. Just go in the horse's pedigree and change the photo. This is not that big a deal? :confused:

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Dazednconfused;3062028]You're kinda missing the point here. It doesn't have any credibility. It never has claimed to be the end all of correct information.

it's a nice way to spend a cold evening...I enter the old walking horse and welsh pedigrees I have here.....seems sad to me that the animals just disappear off the earth w/o a mention of their being here....

but no it is a guide and not the end all....one has to wonder about who has time to sabotage anothers animals...and is there not a way to trace the ISP when an edit is made ??

[avezan]

I've had the owners of a foals that I sold enter the foal's information and incorrectly add the dam's info. I corrected it. But this could be how the OP's info was entered incorrectly. It is an open database that anyone can edit, but if enough knowlegable people use it, it should stay relatively correct. Like Wikipedia. :)

[patch work farm]

I personally do think this is a big deal, for several reasons:

1) One of my mares was listed-her pedigree was VERY incorrect AND I gave no one permission to put her information into such a database. If anyone wants her pedigree information, they can ask me and I will provide it. (I imported her so it is doubtful someone in Germany wasted their time entering the information and I am quite confident they would have made sure it was completely correct). I deleted her and another one of my mares completely. Anyone wants to know about them, they can contact me directly.

2) Hopefully for those of you making "hypothetical" breeding selections, it is just that-hypothetical. If my mare's pedigree was so skewed, I cannot imagine how much information is incorrect for others (as Laura said her's was so incorrect) and would not want to be basing my breeding decisions from anything other than what a stallion owner should provide.

The internet is a wonderful tool if used correctly, but when others try to use the information incorrectly or for some kind of personal gain, that is where the hair on the back of my neck stands up. Many years ago I was contacted by what seemingly was a young girl telling me that she has planned to take my pictures and my farm name and "pretend" it was all her's and put it up on her site. I quickly responded with my webmaster copied to explain why she had no legal right to it and what might happen if in fact she did do so. My webmaster responded as well with the complete legal ramifications of doing so.

Why is it that "our rules" have changed because we can anonomously "hide" behind the internet...the golden rule is still the golden rule. Sorry for my soapbox but I think we take these things too easily sometimes...yes, it is true-no one died, but I spent a lot of money putting my web site together as well as on my breeding business and my horses-they are mine to make those decisions, no one else has the right to do anything with them including falsely post incorrect information about them.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=patch work farm;3062620]I personally do think this is a big deal, for several reasons:

1) One of my mares was listed-her pedigree was VERY incorrect AND I gave no one permission to put her information into such a database.

but just because you own the mare do you also own her history ???
I have entered hundreds of animals there...easily hundreds bred from 1900 and forward...should I have contacted the heirs ?? :)

[patch work farm]

I don't think her "history" is even part of the issue, especially if it is listed wrong...then it isn't even HER history.

[Calliope]

The allbreedpedigree website can be a good resource, but the information on it is only 'general', as most people would (or should) be aware. If I wanted to be sure about the pedigree of a particular horse, then I would contact the relevant breed society.

As to why your horses might be in the database - the owners of your horses' sires or dams may want to put the information in there, as may the current owners of any of your horses' progeny. I would argue that they have every right to do so, although I would hope that it would be done correctly.

I also agree with the poster above that mentioned that it is sad to think that horses will be lost and forgotten.

Out of interest, as far as I can tell, someone is entering the entire spanish horse studbook into the allbreed database bit-by-bit; I can only assume that it is someone affiliated with the stud book. Or someone with far too much time on their hands :).

[Tamara in TN]

I don't think her "history" is even part of the issue, especially if it is listed wrong...then it isn't even HER history.

but it seems that your irritation is that she belongs to you and even knowledge of her lineage is only accessible by you...? (forgive me if that is wrong)...

but was there not somewhere a stallion owner or a mare owner who was also part of her history and therefore her papers...?? what keeps them from adding her to this base as part of the history of their animal??

[ltw]

Tamara:

I agree with you that if the stallion owner or mare owner adds the information about offspring from their sire or dam that is totally fine. but I am sure that person will get the information right.

In the examples Patch Work Farm is referring to(her horses and mine) I am 100% positive that the information was NOT entered by the stallion or mare owner. I can with 100% certainty say that Gudula Vorverk and Heinrich Klausing do not spend their days on the AllBreeds website entering the data of offspring from their stallions and mares.

Up until 48 hours ago, I did not know this website existed. When I stumbled across it I had no idea it was a "Free For All". So, no, not everyone knows it is a bogus site.

I saw no disclaimer at the opening Allbreeds home page stating something like: " Warning, all information on this website is inaccurate, any one can enter anything about your mares, stallions, foals at any time" .

Maybe it exists in the fine print somewhere.



This info was entered by an anomomous person that did not know enough about the horses or their ancestors to get any of the lineage right.

As a professional breeder in this business for over 20 years I take issue with this. I think it is a nice that someone took the time to enter the data. But in order to get any of the information, they had to go to my website to get some datapoints about my mares, stallion and offspring. They also linked to some of my photos, bloodlines, etc. They guessed in many cases when they did not have the data, especially about the mare lines, years of birth, names and dam sires. And in some cases, correct data was on my website but was not entered into the database.

For many of you, entering this information or breeding a mare a year might be a hobby so you may not think it is a big deal. For a professional breeder it is a big deal, when wrong information is posted about their horses. I imagine this information has been up for years.

My recommendation to those of you that are entering the data is to simply try and check with the owner/breeder of the horse if you are pulling data from their website, to make sure you get accurate and complete information. A quick email is all that would take.

I do realize for the older bloodlines and horses that are dead, that this information will not be available.

[Tamara in TN]

Tamara:


My recommendation to those of you that are entering the data is to simply try and check with the owner/breeder of the horse if you are pulling data from their website, to make sure you get accurate and complete information. A quick email is all that would take.

I do realize for the older bloodlines and horses that are dead, that this information will not be available.

Well, I have never used a website for my entries...I use the old printed studbooks and sales catalogues...the youngest ending in the mid 1950's...:)

[Fairview Horse Center]

Well, I personally think Wikipedia is a valuable resource. I think the same of Allbreeds. Both of these would not exist if ordinary people could not enter information. Anyone that enters information into them knows that is is not fact, but does give help for researching info that you can then take to other places to help verify it. I am grateful that both are there.

Anyone that has a foal by a stallion or out of any mare, may enter information on the horse, and go back entering its pedigree. I have had a few of mine entered wrong or changed to be wrong, and have gone back and changed it. For the most part, I believe people are trying to get it right. If you find information repeatedly messed up, like someone is doing it intentionally, then they do record the IP of whoever is changing it, and you can report them.

[Dazednconfused]

Many years ago I was contacted by what seemingly was a young girl telling me that she has planned to take my pictures and my farm name and "pretend" it was all her's and put it up on her site. I quickly responded with my webmaster copied to explain why she had no legal right to it and what might happen if in fact she did do so. My webmaster responded as well with the complete legal ramifications of doing so.


Oh for crap's sake, it was just a kid that was playing a sim game, a perfectly innocent thing to do, and she bothered to email and ask (many of them don't). :(

[Fairview Horse Center]

I think the most frustrating thing about allbreeds is that horses get entered twice. Like the Hanoverian stallion Aktuell. He is listed twice, with a lot of offspring on each one, so to fix it, someone will have to go in and change all of them to one or the other, then delete the remaining Aktuell.

[DownYonder]

I think a lot of the incorrect info is from kids playing SIM games. They see a cool looking name and decide to appropriate it as their own for their game and enter whatever data or photos they want. They think it is a harmless pasttime and have no idea of the confusion they might cause. I really wish there was a VERY strongly worded caution every time you go in there to add or edit a record. I also wish they would make people certify that they are over age 18 before allowing them access to any of the edit features. That wouldn't stop the problem entirely, but it might give some of those kids pause.

[AdAblurr02]

The Sim people do present a problem with allbreedpedigree - and a LOT of them do have way too much time on their hands, and are off in la-la land to begin with!
(apologies to any who may be in full possession of their faculties and just REALLY want a horse)

I find it a very useful resource, especially for our crossbred sporthorses and the breeds other than TB or QH - both of whom have searchable databases available. I also do periodically check my horses' records - found one of my TB broodies had one of her female ancestors changed to some WB or other, weirdly. The deal is to use it wisely, make your own input accurate (not from memory - from RECORDS) and keep your own horses current.

FWIW, the photos often get "lost" when a website (repository source) is updated and the link breaks. If you have photos uploaded for your horses, NEVER move them, or be prepared to re-path them.

Kate

[LaurieB]

I use the TB part of that site, and I really wish there was a note somewhere informing users that the info provided might or might not be accurate. I've met many people who think everything posted there is gospel, whereas in actuality a great deal of it is garbage.

I had a Seattle Slew mare that someone entered ficticious foals for for 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009. These "foals" had sires (that the mare hadn't been bred to), names, colors, and birthdates. I have no idea why that particular mare had been picked, unless perhaps someone like the Slew connection.

Much as there's misinformation in the pedigrees, there's even more in the race records. A filly of ours who's currently racing has her race record "updated" incorrectly at least once a month. I don't understand why anyone who is only guessing would bother to put in wrong information but it happens all the time--to my horses and to many others I look at. Maybe it makes people feel important to be able to contribute even though they don't have a clue what they're doing. :confused:

[Sassenach]

I use the TB part of that site, and I really wish there was a note somewhere informing users that the info provided might or might not be accurate. I've met many people who think everything posted there is gospel, whereas in actuality a great deal of it is garbage.

I had a Seattle Slew mare that someone entered ficticious foals for for 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009. These "foals" had sires (that the mare hadn't been bred to), names, colors, and birthdates.

I'm in the process of writing mareline articles. I use a combination of my pedigree program (Breedmate), Allbreed and another very good (and much more accurate) breed database when doing the family trees and branches.

Can't tell you how much ficticious foals bother me :rolleyes: I'm trying to be as accurate as possible with my articles and will usually just ignore foals from oddball years (one thing I hate about the CPBS in particular is they allow multiple horses with the same names to be registered - which is then when I check reg numbers and gestimate years for accuracy to make sure Black Beauty Mare # 9536 and Black Beauty Mare # 3124 have foals in the time periods they should have foals).

[folly]

http://www.paardenfokken.nl is another pedigree database.

Once the horse is entered the pedigree is then locked. Errors can be corrected by contacting the website.

[ltw]

Fairview: Wikipedia is a great tool but it has an administrator that takes an active roll in correcting misinformation. So even though anyone can enter the data, an administrator actively corrects and validates the data.

I am not clear if this occurs with the Allbreeds database. I spent alot of hours this past weekend correcting data on my own horses after I found this site. Much to my surprise someone had entered that some of my warmblood foals had raced and won in TB races.

I do not have the time to keep up with this sort of database. If I find my horse's data is skewed, corrupted or compromised I will delete it.

Thanks for everyone's input, I am glad I am not the only one that found a bunch of bizarre stuff entered.

Laura
www.shadowfoxfarms.com

[Fairview Horse Center]

I wonder if they would consider going to a free registration, valid email and password to edit on allbreeds? It may not stop all, but would help.

Gee Laura, who knew your babies were that fast? :winkgrin:

[Evalee Hunter]

I use the TB part of that site, and I really wish there was a note somewhere informing users that the info provided might or might not be accurate. . . . someone entered ficticious foals for for 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009. These "foals" had sires (that the mare hadn't been bred to), names, colors, and birthdates. I have no idea why that particular mare had been picked, . . . .

I personally think that one problem with Pedigree Query (the Thoroughbred site) is that, since it became a partially "you pay to play" site, non-paying users can no longer do hypothetical matings. So now they do the matings as if they were real to see the results. They could delete the horses afterward, but they do not.

[ahf]

What has happened to Allbreeds really saddens me.

Inbetween Dec 2000 and April 2001, I was the 24/7 caregiver to a very ill spouse and literally chained to the house. I spenta couple hundred hours entering in stallion pedigrees from the private (Red book) Hanoverian Hengstbuch. While I was doing that, someone on the west coast was entering in all the state stallions (yellow book). It was my refuge, and my therapy. I felt like I was actually DOING something and it took my mind off my situation. It was also a great way to identify broodmare sires. the problem of double entries that Fairview alluded to was a big problem even then.

A couple of years later, I visited the site again, only to find that someone had tinkered with my horses' pedigrees. It happened repeatedly, and I reported the issue to the webmaster. Never heard back, but since that report I've not had a problem.

Like you said Laura, a full-time administrator, with perhaps some volunteer pedigree-checkers would make all the difference.

Tamera, it is rewarding and kind of addicting to enter them, don't you think? Now if only our hard work couldn't be tampered with. A lot of people put a lot of volunteer time into building that stallion database.

[Albion]

Fairview: Wikipedia is a great tool but it has an administrator that takes an active roll in correcting misinformation. So even though anyone can enter the data, an administrator actively corrects and validates the data.

You think an 'administrator' is going through and checking the references and footnotes of articles posted/edited? I don't think so. It's a self-correcting resource (sort of like these open access pedigree databases) - hence those 'talk' pages where people go on flame wars and serious discussions to argue about the tilt of an article, lack of references, etc. Sure, you can request that a page be locked & things will be tagged with notes ('cleanup needed,' 'does not meet standards,' whatever), but it's up to the USERS to make those changes. People can & do put erroneous information in Wikipedia all the time - and sometimes, it doesn't get corrected for a good chunk of time. The blog I write for has a Wikipedia entry, and it's been tagged with 'Cleanup' and 'Needs references' for well over a year. No administrator is stepping in to 'fix' misinformation or add (non-existent) references.

If you see misinformation about one of your horses in an open access database, fix it.

[Sassenach]

Tamera, it is rewarding and kind of addicting to enter them, don't you think? Now if only our hard work couldn't be tampered with. A lot of people put a lot of volunteer time into building that stallion database.

It is :yes: I'm making headway through my 13000 Connemara ponies (2400 so far entered :eek:)

[ahf]

I gotta say Albion, your signature line fascinates me.