A different Ethics in Breeding issue - Ad re: HYPP

[shawneeAcres]

While thumbing thru the AQHA journal today I came across a stallion at stud ad. This was just amazing/appalling to me, the ad for an HYPP N/H stallion:

"A great HYPP guarantee - less than 5% H/H foals produced when bred to N/H mares"

I simply could NOT believe this ad, a FULL PAGE AD in a NATIONAL magazine, and couldn't believe it on so many levels!

First on the intellectual level (for lack of a better term). The fact that an HYPP N/H stallion WILL contribute an "H" gene 50% of the time in any breeding obviously elludes these folks. And that means that, given enough time and breedings 25% of his foals will result in an H/H foal when bred to an N/H mare and 50% of his foals will be N/H. Although on paper he may have so far sired "only" 5% from N/H mares, this is borderline false advertising!

Second on the ethical level. AQHA has finally taken a stand (although a very laz, and reactive, rather than proactive stand) on HYPP, and as of last year H/H foals may not be registered (cannot remember the year that N/H will not be allowed to be registered, but sometime in the future). So if AQHA took that stand then shouldn't they DISALLOW an N/H to be bred to an N/H?? I mean I think they should track the stallion/mare combination and not issue a breeder's certificate for the breeding as it is inherently wrong to breed with the possibility of an H/H/ foal (ethically it is wrong to produce N/H in my opinion, but by AQHA's own admission H/H is disallowed).

Third an economic level. I mean WHO in their right mind would even risk a chance that they would produce an H/H foal???? I mean you end up with an expensive stud fee, shipping semen costs, vet bills to inseminate, cost of upkeep for the mare to produce a foal with basically NO worth as it cannot be registered (which to QH people reg. papers are an absolutel must).

Sorry I was SO dumbfounded I simply couldn't believe this ad! Just what gopher hole is this stallion owner sticking his head down anyways??!!!!!:no::eek::(:mad::confused:

[camohn]

The no H/H foals being registered only started in Jan of 2007 (pretty recent). I did not see anything about N/H foals not being registered in the AQHA rulebook yet. Where did you see it? (FWIW I don't think HYPP or OLWS horses should be allowed to breed to each other so as not to get HYPP H/H horses or OLWS foals when it CAN be prevented).
As to why da heck anyone would knowingly breed N/H horses together? There are some dang fools in the stock horse halter world that WANT an N/H horse because they think it helps give the horse that favored Mr. Universe look. They are willing to take a chance on getting an H/H horse like frame overo breeders are (shakes head) willing to risk getting an OLWS foal over a solid one.
So.....yup makes sense to me that you should not breed N/H horses together if you don't want H/H horses.....but no accounting for brains (or lack thereof....) on that thinking as far as the good of the horse goes. The reason I heard it took so long to even get the H/H thing passed was that there was so much money sunk into breeders with HYPP positive horses that the AQHA powers that be did not want to bring financial ruin on the breeders that had all those horses/had invested all that money in them. (Again, the health of the horse is of no real importance here.)

[county]

N/H foals cannot be reg. starting in 2010 I beleive it is.

[Cielo Azure]

Heh, these are the folks who think that deaf horses are A-OK too.

Recently there are a thread of a women who paid $20K for a DEAF AQHA filly and was furious because its topline was wonky. It made me want to rant and rage. But most people posting were absolutely ok with top stud quarter horses (fetching huge stallion service fees) being deaf and passing that trait on. Because he is a top money maker and that is what counts!!!

Gosh...Why should we want our horses to hear??? let's see...maybe, herd dynamics, traffic safety, predator safety, and all sorts of reasons? Including, basic genetics and animal husbandry. But, gosh...the if the horses can't hear the crowds and then in the minds of the owners: THEY ARE BETTER REINING HORSES FOR BEING DEAF!!! Plus, we can all have lovely pure white horses (of course many will sight issues also -just give that one a few years for these idiots to figure that out).

What a sick, sad world AQHA has become.

[RiddleMeThis]

Heh, these are the folks who think that deaf horses are A-OK too.

Recently there are a thread of a women who paid $20K for a DEAF AQHA filly and was furious because its topline was wonky. It made me want to rant and rage. But most people posting were absolutely ok with top stud quarter horses (fetching huge stallion service fees) being deaf and passing that trait on. Because he is a top money maker and that is what counts!!![/qb] His deafness is not a genetic trait. It also will not physically effect a horse like HYPP does or producing a lethal white foal.[qb]

Gosh...Why should we want our horses to hear??? let's see...maybe, herd dynamics, traffic safety, predator safety, and all sorts of reasons? Including, basic genetics and animal husbandry. But, gosh...the if the horses can't hear the crowds and then in the minds of the owners: THEY ARE BETTER REINING HORSES FOR BEING DEAF!!! Plus, we can all have lovely pure white horses (of course many will sight issues also -just give that one a few years for these idiots to figure that out).

What a sick, sad world AQHA has become.I wouldnt mind my horse being deaf because they would never have to deal with any of those situations that you mentioned. Many horses do not have to deal with any of that.


TA:Here are some snippets from an article on equine deafness"

The veterinary researcher has spoken with European researchers about genetic testing, and said they all suspect that “there probably isn’t going to be a single gene involved, like with hyperkalemic periodic paralysis. It’s probably going to be associated with a lack of pigment, therefore, the color markings,” she said. “If a horse has pigment in the hair cells on the inner ear, it’s going to be fine. If it has pink skin in that inner ear, it’s going to be affected.”

And even though the gene for that lack of pigmentation is likely inherited, the result is going to depend on “where those pigment cells end up in the markings,” Stewart said. (Note by the gene for lack of pigment they mean any color gene such as splash frame tobiano and sabino, not a gene for deafness.)

“If you have two affected horses and you breed them together, you’re not going to necessarily get an affected offspring,” she explained.

Pretty much you are more likely to get a deaf foal with splash white horses because of the way there markings form but there is no genetic part to making them deaf. The gene itself does not make them deaf.

[myrna]

and i wouldn't mind my kids (human) being deaf because???????????????????get your head out of your **********.this is just my opinion.................

[RiddleMeThis]

and i wouldn't mind my kids (human) being deaf because???????????????????get your head out of your **********.this is just my opinion.................

Humans are not horses

[myrna]

human or whatever... do you really think that hearing doesn't matter......... i do..............

[RiddleMeThis]

human or whatever... do you really think that hearing doesn't matter......... i do..............

Well considering Gunner (One of the major horses who is deaf) is doing so well and so are his get and his siblings, no I do not think that it makes that big of a difference.

[Dazednconfused]

While thumbing thru the AQHA journal today I came across a stallion at stud ad. This was just amazing/appalling to me, the ad for an HYPP N/H stallion:

"A great HYPP guarantee - less than 5% H/H foals produced when bred to N/H mares"

I simply could NOT believe this ad, a FULL PAGE AD in a NATIONAL magazine, and couldn't believe it on so many levels!

First on the intellectual level (for lack of a better term). The fact that an HYPP N/H stallion WILL contribute an "H" gene 50% of the time in any breeding obviously elludes these folks. And that means that, given enough time and breedings 25% of his foals will result in an H/H foal when bred to an N/H mare and 50% of his foals will be N/H. Although on paper he may have so far sired "only" 5% from N/H mares, this is borderline false advertising!

Well, I don't disagree with you here. But lots of people know nothing about genetics (just look at all the color threads that pop up in this forum). It's a really hard subject for people to understand - especially when a figure like 'only 5% are H/H' is bandied about and is actually correct (though not relevant). Literally speaking, a horse could theoretically produce only 5% H/H offspring - what people don't understand is that that figure has no bearing on each and every roll of the genetic dice. Also consider that sometimes ad designers mess up. They could have meant 50%.

Second on the ethical level. AQHA has finally taken a stand (although a very laz, and reactive, rather than proactive stand) on HYPP, and as of last year H/H foals may not be registered (cannot remember the year that N/H will not be allowed to be registered, but sometime in the future). So if AQHA took that stand then shouldn't they DISALLOW an N/H to be bred to an N/H?? I mean I think they should track the stallion/mare combination and not issue a breeder's certificate for the breeding as it is inherently wrong to breed with the possibility of an H/H/ foal (ethically it is wrong to produce N/H in my opinion, but by AQHA's own admission H/H is disallowed).

How in the world do you expect AQHA to police what people do in their own backyards? That's pretty ridiculous. It's not inherently wrong. It's not what you would do (and it sure as hell isn't what I would do, either!) But inherently wrong? No. They have different goals and different aims for their foals/breeding program than you.

Third an economic level. I mean WHO in their right mind would even risk a chance that they would produce an H/H foal???? I mean you end up with an expensive stud fee, shipping semen costs, vet bills to inseminate, cost of upkeep for the mare to produce a foal with basically NO worth as it cannot be registered (which to QH people reg. papers are an absolutel must).

Oh I dunno - maybe the fact that we don't live in a socialist, government-breeding-controlled country?? People can spend their money how and when they wish, for better or for worse. Instead of worrying about what other people do, do your best to educate newcomers and breed HYPP N/N foals. Only you can control you ;) And just because you don't find worth in an unregistered foal doesn't mean a) someone else won't, and b) someone else could easily start another association that does accept N/H and H/H horses, in fact I seem to recall reading a website of people that did just that.

Is it really worth it to people to care THAT much about what other people do with their breeding programs? Why in the world would you practically get an ulcer over that?? You can make the argument that "well, it's stupid to do "X"", or "it devalues other people's foals", or "they're not registerable" - but the fact is, people will do what they want with their money - and you cannot control that. You can only breed the best foals you personally can, and start them off properly with handling, papers, and selecting the right buyers, and mentor new horse people so that they make appropriate, safe decisions with the knowledge to back it up. That's all you can do.

[myrna]

i am having a problem with this discussion............i would NOT breed any thing that has a good chance of resulting with an offspring of disabilities........sure.there are are youngsters that have over come major problems,but why take the risk.

[myrna]

Another thought here...................in europe stallions have to pass maojor testing before they are approved as breeding stallions.in my opinion that is wonderful.............

[RiddleMeThis]

Another thought here...................in europe stallions have to pass maojor testing before they are approved as breeding stallions.in my opinion that is wonderful.............

The stallions that have to pass testing there have to pass testing here as well.

[shawneeAcres]

How in the world do you expect AQHA to police what people do in their own backyards? That's pretty ridiculous. It's not inherently wrong. It's not what you would do (and it sure as hell isn't what I would do, either!) But inherently wrong? No. They have different goals and different aims for their foals/breeding program than you.



Oh I dunno - maybe the fact that we don't live in a socialist, government-breeding-controlled country?? People can spend their money how and when they wish, for better or for worse. Instead of worrying about what other people do, do your best to educate newcomers and breed HYPP N/N foals. Only you can control you ;) And just because you don't find worth in an unregistered foal doesn't mean a) someone else won't, and b) someone else could easily start another association that does accept N/H and H/H horses, in fact I seem to recall reading a website of people that did just that.



WEll, by AQHA's own admission (finally!) it IS inherently wrong. They are taking a stance against HYPP positive individuals, and will refuse registration in the future to ANY positive horses, whether or not homozygous. So yes, they DO have the authority to police (and the responsibility in my opinion) what is done WITHIN THEIR REGISTRY. Why do I "Worry" about what other people do??? Well, because the ad they placed, although not untrue is very very misleading. Much of the public has little to no knowledge of the simple facts of genetics. Heck, there are people out there that believe is a horse has grey in it's ancestors OTHER THAN direct parents, that they might produce a grey foal! I do not think the GOVERNMENT has a durn thing to do with what I stated does it?? I was talking about an INDEPENDENT registry, that should be doing what it is preaching (And AQHA so often preaches but does not act, just look at their show rules, and yet the same hroses win over and over again). I certainly don't want the government poking it's nose into my affairs, but if I choose to go with a registry, I would like that registry to not only MAKE rules, but to enforce them for the betterment of my BREED

[Daydream Believer]

Pretty much you are more likely to get a deaf foal with splash white horses because of the way there markings form but there is no genetic part to making them deaf. The gene itself does not make them deaf.

I have a white mare that carries splash white and overo. At least we think it's splash white in this case...but anyway she has produced a solid white deaf foal to a bay sabino stallion. We wonder now if the stallion was splash white and not sabino. Not sure...she produced a perfectly fine overo filly to the same stallion.

So far as I know there is no test yet for splash...all we can do is go by phenotype and what horses have produced to judge who to cross to whom.

[RiddleMeThis]

I have a white mare that carries splash white and overo. At least we think it's splash white in this case...but anyway she has produced a solid white deaf foal to a bay sabino stallion. We wonder now if the stallion was splash white and not sabino. Not sure...she produced a perfectly fine overo filly to the same stallion.

So far as I know there is no test yet for splash...all we can do is go by phenotype and what horses have produced to judge who to cross to whom.

Could have been. And no there is no test and everyones theory is evolving about splash. Do either the mare or stallion have blue eyes(not that it matters to me in terms of proving splash lol)? I would love to see pictures of them if you dont mind.

[Kinsella]

re: deafness

Is it preferable to have a horse that is not deaf? Of course. Would I not buy a horse because it was deaf? Of course not. Would I breed to a deaf stallion? You bet your butt that if I had a kickin' reining bred mare, she'd be booked to Gunnar so fast your head would spin. Deafness be d@mded, those horses have the BEST personalities, work ethics and flat out talent - qualities I admire in a horse.

As for the comparison to humans... So anyone that is genetically deaf should not have kids? What about those that are blind? Or if they have green eyes? Or red hair? (and I AM NOT saying that blind horses should be bred, as blindness is a much much bigger issue than deafness - just using that to help make the point that you can not compare humans and horses without coming out on the bad end of it...)

[Kinsella]

re: breeding HYPP horses

HYPP would be long gone if AQHA had stood up for it's HORSES years ago. How stupid and selfish of them to allow it to go on for so many years. And yes, I feel the same about HERDA. Stop it NOW before it becomes rampant and affects more people and horses than it already has.

[shawneeAcres]

re: breeding HYPP horses

HYPP would be long gone if AQHA had stood up for it's HORSES years ago. How stupid and selfish of them to allow it to go on for so many years. And yes, I feel the same about HERDA. Stop it NOW before it becomes rampant and affects more people and horses than it already has.

Although I don't like the idea of HERDA genes being present in the breed, it is a different situation, in that a heterozygous HERDA carrier has no symptoms at all or otherwise compromised from a health standpoint. It would be ncie to say stop breeding all hroses carrying HERDA< but I suspect you would be getting rid of a LARGE proportion of the QH breed, since it comes from a foundation sire of the breed. So many many horse may be carriers of this. It only creates and issue when two carriers are bred together and create a homozygous foal. So at the least, two carriers should not be bred. Obviously if EVERY QH was tested and EVERY carrier was not allowed to be bred (and that goes for other breeds influenced by Poco Bueno, including APHA and ApHC), one could, in theory, eradicate the gene altogether. I doubt that would or even could happen. As we gain more and more understanding of genetics, we are going to find that MANY afflictions are genetically based, and it will be a difficult situation. Carriers should be advertised as such (as long as it is known) and at least then people will make informed decisions. But I don't feel it is quite such a threat as HYPP, since HYPP manifests itself in either the homozygous or heterozygous individual

[belambi]

'Plus, we can all have lovely pure white horses (of course many will sight issues also -just give that one a few years for these idiots to figure that out).'


are you referring to fewspots?


Australia has seriouslly led the way on the whole olws front. When the American AQHA changed the excess white rule Australia refused to approve or allow such an asanine and damaging rule to be accepted here. We do allow excess white only after a negative olws test, and all horses that apply for foundation MUST also be approved olws neg.. even those with no white. its a very sensible rule. I am just horrified that America has allowed and encouraged olws pos AQHAs.

re Hypp.. no comment.. the video says it all..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE-kuYDrNEU

[camohn]

"Plus, we can all have lovely pure white horses (of course many will sight issues also -just give that one a few years for these idiots to figure that out".
Huh?
I have 2 white horses (sabinos) that are not deaf and not OLWS..they are perfectly healthy. Just chestnut horses covered by a big white spot! And FWIW one has 2 blue eyes (one light/one dark blue) and 1 has 1 blue/1 brown eye.

[RiddleMeThis]

'Plus, we can all have lovely pure white horses (of course many will sight issues also -just give that one a few years for these idiots to figure that out).'


are you referring to fewspots?
No either max white sabinos or splashes[qb]

Australia has seriouslly led the way on the whole olws front. When the American AQHA changed the excess white rule Australia refused to approve or allow such an asanine and damaging rule to be accepted here. We do allow excess white only after a negative olws test, and all horses that apply for foundation MUST also be approved olws neg.. even those with no white. its a very sensible rule. I am just horrified that America has allowed and encouraged olws positive AQHAs.
Frame does not effect a horse unless it is homozygous for frame. A frame horse will have no side effects from being frame. The only time one is effected is if bred to another carrier. Dont breed carrier to carrier and you have no problems.

BTW in Australia do you allow Hypp HH or NH be registered? Also you could very easily have lethal white positive horses in Australias QH. IT can be as minimal as not one single white hair, or do you just test all QHs?

[Daydream Believer]

Could have been. And no there is no test and everyones theory is evolving about splash. Do either the mare or stallion have blue eyes(not that it matters to me in terms of proving splash lol)? I would love to see pictures of them if you dont mind.

The mare has two blue eyes...She is Sierra Encantada on my site on my mare's page. The stallion appears to be a bay sabino and has two dark eyes...he does have a bald face though so more white than is necessary on the face for a sabino.

[RiddleMeThis]

The mare has two blue eyes...She is Sierra Encantada on my site on my mare's page. The stallion appears to be a bay sabino and has two dark eyes...he does have a bald face though so more white than is necessary on the face for a sabino.

Is she a cremello? I noticed the pink skin and apparent palomino foal by her side. Well I have looked and I think that is the foal by Cayuse Gold so mabye not. The being said I cant see the markings on her because of the white, but I would definatelythink possibly splash. This the stallion? http://www.spanishmustang.org/Images/DSCF2161.jpg If its defiantely splash.

[Touchstone Farm]

re: deafness

Is it preferable to have a horse that is not deaf? Of course. Would I not buy a horse because it was deaf? Of course not. Would I breed to a deaf stallion? You bet your butt that if I had a kickin' reining bred mare, she'd be booked to Gunnar so fast your head would spin. Deafness be d@mded, those horses have the BEST personalities, work ethics and flat out talent - qualities I admire in a horse.

As for the comparison to humans... So anyone that is genetically deaf should not have kids? What about those that are blind? Or if they have green eyes? Or red hair? (and I AM NOT saying that blind horses should be bred, as blindness is a much much bigger issue than deafness - just using that to help make the point that you can not compare humans and horses without coming out on the bad end of it...)

Your post is one of the saddest posts I've read in a long time. For your purposes (competition, passivity, whatever), you would prefer your horse to be "abnormal" compared to its peers as long as YOU benefit. Perhaps just improving your horsemanship versus breeding to a horse that gives you an "advantage" because it is at a disadvantage would be the better and fairer avenue to go. Of course, we are talking about a horse, not a human, so in your mind, who cares? It's just a horse, right? How sad of an attitude. And twisting your logic by saying humans with red hair shouldn't breed...just as sick and sad of a "justification." Wow. Just wow.

[Daydream Believer]

Is she a cremello? I noticed the pink skin and apparent palomino foal by her side. Well I have looked and I think that is the foal by Cayuse Gold so mabye not. The being said I cant see the markings on her because of the white, but I would definatelythink possibly splash. This the stallion? http://www.spanishmustang.org/Images/DSCF2161.jpg If its defiantely splash.

Yes that was the sire of that deaf foal with my white mare Sierra. The mare is not a cremello as she's produced bay color in a foal before I bough her. Her total white color makes it hard to know what she carries gene wise but we've gotten loud overos out of her (one is Valiant Dream on my site) and then the dilute apparent sabino filly last year. That dilute gene most likely came from Cayuse Gold but I can't discount that she might carry one dilute gene. I did not realize she might also carry splash overo until I found out about her white and def earlier foal.

I might have screwed up...we bred her to a colt we thought we were exporting as a test of fertility. The sale fell through and we gelded him and figured we'd have this one foal of his anyway...Utah Blaine on my geldings page. I have been told that he is most likely a splash overo too. He tested negative for OLWS so he's definitely not frame. If the deafness in splash white is due to homozygosity as I've read, than we are running a 25% chance of a white and deaf foal. I'll probably have heart failure if we get one...wondering if the danged DNA test for OLWS was accurate or not. I sure wish someone could come up with a DNA test for splash soon!

[camohn]

Yes that was the sire of that deaf foal with my white mare Sierra. The mare is not a cremello as she's produced bay color in a foal before I bough her. Her total white color makes it hard to know what she carries gene wise but we've gotten loud overos out of her (one is Valiant Dream on my site) and then the dilute apparent sabino filly last year. That dilute gene most likely came from Cayuse Gold but I can't discount that she might carry one dilute gene. I did not realize she might also carry splash overo until I found out about her white and def earlier foal.

I might have screwed up...we bred her to a colt we thought we were exporting as a test of fertility. The sale fell through and we gelded him and figured we'd have this one foal of his anyway...Utah Blaine on my geldings page. I have been told that he is most likely a splash overo too. He tested negative for OLWS so he's definitely not frame. If the deafness in splash white is due to homozygosity as I've read, than we are running a 25% chance of a white and deaf foal. I'll probably have heart failure if we get one...wondering if the danged DNA test for OLWS was accurate or not. I sure wish someone could come up with a DNA test for splash soon!

Heart failure happens! Our stallion was OLWS neg and the MO had her mare tested/was OLWS neg (both parents were minimal overos thought to be sabinos and known to NOT be frames). When the mare had the all white (max sabino) colt I ended up buying back from her she DID call having a heart attack..her first thought was The Test Was Wrong! She called me like 7 am of the day he was born in a tizzy. I asked her "did he poop?". She was momentarily confused and wondered why the heck I was asking her that....she said "Yes....why??". I said because if he pooped he is NOT a leathal white!! Then she got why I was asking and took a deep breath!! The other foal I had that was also all white was also good for heart failure here though for a different reason. Both parents again minimal sabinos but that filly was a dystocia (head turnedback towards her/not between her legs) so I WAS having a panic attack there! Once we got past that and I got her head out I didn't notice or care if she was PURPLE! I did see white legs coming and thought at first "oh good it has color"...then the OH CRAP of the head issues.....then the rest of her kept coming out (slowly as mare was now too tired to push and I had to pull her out.....much harder than I thought it would be with both of us being slippery and all!!) and I kept wondering where "the rest of the color" was....and there was none....

[Kinsella]

Your post is one of the saddest posts I've read in a long time. For your purposes (competition, passivity, whatever), you would prefer your horse to be "abnormal" compared to its peers as long as YOU benefit. Perhaps just improving your horsemanship versus breeding to a horse that gives you an "advantage" because it is at a disadvantage would be the better and fairer avenue to go. Of course, we are talking about a horse, not a human, so in your mind, who cares? It's just a horse, right? How sad of an attitude. And twisting your logic by saying humans with red hair shouldn't breed...just as sick and sad of a "justification." Wow. Just wow.

Wha?? OK, I am almost speechless... Nowhere in my post did I say I PREFERRED my horses to be abnormal. I said I would in fact buy a deaf horse and breed to a deaf horse. In case you missed it, in horses deafness itself is not genetic. It's a crapshoot based on where the lack of pigmentation falls in relation to the ears. And if I can quote myself here...
Deafness be d@mded, those horses have the BEST personalities, work ethics and flat out talent - qualities I admire in a horse.
What part of this says anything about wanting an advantage through the "disadvantage" of deafness? It says that Gunnar's offspring are, well, talented, hard-working, and a joy to be around. And are they really at a disadvantage? When was the last time your horse actually had to hear in order to survive? If you can even think of such a time, maybe YOU need to improve your horsemanship skills and take care of your animals as well as mine are cared for. Mine could be stone deaf and blind and would want for nothing, nor would they ever have to worry about anything because that is MY job since I chose to own and take responsibility for them. They are my best friends, the loves of my life. And I certainly wouldn't shun them because of any issue they may have or develop.

As for the "it's just a horse", well, thank you for reminding me why I much prefer horses to humans - always have and always will.

I'm not even going to try to explain the red-headed comment to you, since you obviously did not get the gist of my original post at all the first time.... :rolleyes:

[RiddleMeThis]

I might have screwed up...we bred her to a colt we thought we were exporting as a test of fertility. The sale fell through and we gelded him and figured we'd have this one foal of his anyway...Utah Blaine on my geldings page. I have been told that he is most likely a splash overo too. He tested negative for OLWS so he's definitely not frame. If the deafness in splash white is due to homozygosity as I've read, than we are running a 25% chance of a white and deaf foal. I'll probably have heart failure if we get one...wondering if the danged DNA test for OLWS was accurate or not. I sure wish someone could come up with a DNA test for splash soon!
The deafness is not from being homozygous for splash. It is from lack of pigment in the ear. You have a better chance of being deaf with splash because of the way the pattern works, but it is in way a homozygous deal.

Now the white is thought to be more heavily marked in the homozygous state, but again not always all white.

[farmgirl88]

My friend has an HYPP positive paint 3 yr old. He has something else too that was genetic. It was a horrible situation in my mind with irresponsible breeders, and careless owners from the start. Thank god they have no retired the broodmare form which this issue was traced to. The 3 yr old isnt that bad. They can't ride him heavily, and he's been wicked easy to work with-but it just scares me when she said she goes home and he's laying in the field having spasms. I couldn't do it. The owners were going to euthanize him as a foal-but she took him in

[Daydream Believer]

The deafness is not from being homozygous for splash. It is from lack of pigment in the ear. You have a better chance of being deaf with splash because of the way the pattern works, but it is in way a homozygous deal.

Now the white is thought to be more heavily marked in the homozygous state, but again not always all white.

Well, that is some comfort! Thanks! I will be sure to send pics to Okogo when she foals.

camohn...well, I will try not to have a heart attack and if it poops, I will take a sigh of relief! I, of course, make sure the baby passes meconium before leaving the two alone, so that help my heart palpitations!

Riddle...can you look at a horse and know if it has pigment in its ears or not?

[camohn]

The deafness is not from being homozygous for splash. It is from lack of pigment in the ear. You have a better chance of being deaf with splash because of the way the pattern works, but it is in way a homozygous deal.

.
This is not related to the HYPP issue at all but I can't let this silliness continue.
This is ridiculous. In that case my 2 white horses would be deaf and they most certainly are NOT!
There is a huge difference is why sabino and frame horses are different in the color expression. Sabino (and tobiano) horses get their white hair because of regulation in the protein expression in development in the KIT gene. There is no defect in how the amino acid chain (helix) is constructed so there is no defect in it. Therefore there are no birth defects associated with sabino and tobiano. Frame/OLWS is on a different gene and it IS caused by a defect in the amino acid chain so it DOES cause birth defects to the nerve affected by the development of this area (in this case the innervation to the intestine) in it's homozygous state.
There is not a test for splash yet as far as I know but my guess would personally be that splash is like frame because of the deafness thing: that it is also an amino acid defect so when it is homozygous then it affects nerve development in that area of neural tube development...in this case the auditory nerve instead of the intestinal nerve.

[Daventry]

I wouldnt mind my horse being deaf because they would never have to deal with any of those situations that you mentioned. Many horses do not have to deal with any of that.



and i wouldn't mind my kids (human) being deaf because???????????????????get your head out of your **********.this is just my opinion.................

Humans are not horses


I've been on this board for a lot of years and don't think I've ever read something so sad and appalling! :no:

So, because horses are lower on the totem pole than us, it makes it OK. Because someone can't be bothered to stuff their ears, or God forbid, take the time to get them used to the crowd noise or actually learn to trust the rider in noisy situations, it makes it OK. Because you would still have other ways of communicating with your horse, taking away one of their most vital human/horse communicators makes it OK. Hey, you still have your seat and hands!

Because with a deaf horse, you would make sure that your "prey animal" is well stabled and looked after so they never have to worry about one of their vital defense mechanisms being gone, it makes it OK. I mean, who would put them in a situation were loss of hearing would make them have to be more paranoid and aware of their surroundings, always looking over a shoulder, so to speak, because they want to make sure they weren't going to end up being someone's lunch. Domesticated or not, their inherent instincts are still there! Neanderthals were known for being very primalistic and not very bright...I didn't realize those traits still show up clearly in today's human population! :no::(

[RiddleMeThis]

This is not related to the HYPP issue at all but I can't let this silliness continue.
This is ridiculous. In that case my 2 white horses would be deaf and they most certainly are NOT!
There is a huge difference is why sabino and frame horses are different in the color expression. Sabino (and tobiano) horses get their white hair because of regulation in the protein expression in development in the KIT gene. There is no defect in how the amino acid chain (helix) is constructed so there is no defect in it. Therefore there are no birth defects associated with sabino and tobiano. Frame/OLWS is on a different gene and it IS caused by a defect in the amino acid chain so it DOES cause birth defects to the nerve affected by the development of this area (in this case the innervation to the intestine) in it's homozygous state.
There is not a test for splash yet as far as I know but my guess would personally be that splash is like frame because of the deafness thing: that it is also an amino acid defect so when it is homozygous then it affects nerve development in that area of neural tube development...in this case the auditory nerve instead of the intestinal nerve.Would you like to read the study that states that deafness is from lack of pigmentation in the ear? Here it is.
http://quarterhorsenews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=105&Itemid=1

I dont go making statements like that without proof. I know what I am talking about.

[RiddleMeThis]

I've been on this board for a lot of years and don't think I've ever read something so sad and appalling! :no:

So, because horses are lower on the totem pole than us, it makes it OK. Because someone can't be bothered to stuff their ears, or God forbid, take the time to get them used to the crowd noise or actually learn to trust the rider in noisy situations, it makes it OK. Because you would still have other ways of communicating with your horse, Where did I say that? taking away one of their most vital human/horse communicators makes it OK. Hey, you still have your seat and hands! Vital? I would not calling my voice vital to my horse.

Because with a deaf horse, you would make sure that your "prey animal" is well stabled and looked after so they never have to worry about one of their vital defense mechanisms being gone, it makes it OK. I mean, who would put them in a situation were loss of hearing would make them have to be more paranoid and aware of their surroundings, always looking over a shoulder, so to speak, because they want to make sure they weren't going to end up being someone's lunch. Thats how all my horses are kept. A deaf horse would not be any different than any of them. [qupte]Domesticated or not, their inherent instincts are still there! Neanderthals were known for being very primalistic and not very bright...I didn't realize those traits still show up clearly in today's human population! :no::([/QUOTE]
Great now throwing insults? Wow and your supposed to be the intelligent one? At least I can make an arguement without resorting to insults.

[RiddleMeThis]

Here to save you some time here is a direct quote from the article
Stewart said one thing is apparent even without genetic testing: The deafness is caused by a lack of pigment in part of the inner ear.

[Daventry]

Vital? I would not calling my voice vital to my horse.


...and THAT is what separates the true horsemen from the wanna be's! :yes:

[RiddleMeThis]

...and THAT is what separates the true horsemen from the wanna be's! :yes:

If you say so.

[RiddleMeThis]

For me my voice is a tool. Nice to have, but do I need to use my voice to make my horse perform great or to act great? Not at all

[Daydream Believer]

Because with a deaf horse, you would make sure that your "prey animal" is well stabled and looked after so they never have to worry about one of their vital defense mechanisms being gone, it makes it OK. I mean, who would put them in a situation were loss of hearing would make them have to be more paranoid and aware of their surroundings, always looking over a shoulder, so to speak, because they want to make sure they weren't going to end up being someone's lunch. Domesticated or not, their inherent instincts are still there! Neanderthals were known for being very primalistic and not very bright...I didn't realize those traits still show up clearly in today's human population! :no::(

Well...the one deaf horse I know...the offspring of my mare before I bought her...seems fine. You'd never know he was deaf just working around him. He lives in a pasture with his companion and for all purposes seems fine, very calm natured and I believe they use him in kids lessons. I would not intentionally breed knowing this trait was risked by a certain cross any more than I'd risk a lethal white knowingly...but a deaf horse does not seem to need much more care than a normal one.

[TaliaCristianna]

For me my voice is a tool. Nice to have, but do I need to use my voice to make my horse perform great or to act great? Not at all

Gee, RiddleMe, haven't you ever noticed how LOUD the great dressage riders get when performing their tests?

Oh... Wait... Never mind....

[RiddleMeThis]

Gee, RiddleMe, haven't you ever noticed how LOUD the great dressage riders get when performing their tests?

Oh... Wait... Never mind....

Those reining people too. They positively scream.

[camohn]

Would you like to read the study that states that deafness is from lack of pigmentation in the ear? Here it is.
http://quarterhorsenews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=105&Itemid=1

I dont go making statements like that without proof. I know what I am talking about.

Here is the more detailed quote from the article you posted:
“Coat color-associated deafness appears to be associated with an absence of melanocyte-like cells in the stria vascularis of the cochlea of the ear,” he said. “These cells are derived from the neural crest region of the embryo. Interestingly, the melanocytes that produce coat color pigment also are derived from the neural crest."
Therefore, horses with the gene that leads to the splashed white pattern have defective melanocyte migration to the nonpigmented regions of the head, and that also involves abnormal migration of the cells that play a role in the development of hearing in the inner ear, he said.

The article says exactly what I said. It says SPLASH white. In SPLASH white horses the neural crest that colors the ears is responsible for development of the cochlea.
Not all white horses, not sabino white horses. Just splash pattern. It's not the white hair pigment that does in the hearing...it's the other developmental problems that come with the same area of the neural tube development (or lack thereof) with the splash gene.

[Daydream Believer]

But not all Splash white horses are deaf are they?

[Touchstone Farm]

Well, kinsella, being "almost speechless," isn't the same as not having one's entire sense of hearing....

I guess we differ in our breeding philosophies, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I personally think one tries to breed the best to the best, and not propagate any kind of heartbreaker...because in breeding, the heartbreakers come along anyway. No need to stack the deck toward genetic problems....

And my apologies...I read the redhaired comment too quickly; I see what you were saying. I was just preoccupied by the thought of breeding to a horse with a known problem. Again, I've always tried to hold to the philosophy of breeding the best to the best...because even then it is a crap shoot.

[camohn]

But not all Splash white horses are deaf are they?

In theory just the ones that are homozygous for splash....like frame overos only have leathal white foals if they are homozygous. It is known that frame is caused by an amino acid defect.In it's heterozygous form it is just a carrier, in it's homozygous form it affects the development of the nerve to the intestine from that part of the neural tube. No intestinal innervation is deadly. Roan and splash do not have as much genetic tracking yet. Because of how the (probably) homozygous splash horses appear to be deaf it appears that splash is likely an amino acid chain mutation like frame...but to a different gene or part of the neural tube. Deinnervation to the ear (per the QH article specifically the cochlea) is not leathal. At least not in a domestic situation. I doubt it would be helpful in the wild.

[Daydream Believer]

In theory just the ones that are homozygous for splash....like frame overos only have leathal white foals if they are homozygous. It is known that frame is caused by an amino acid defect.In it's heterozygous form it is just a carrier, in it's homozygous form it affects the development of the nerve to the intestine from that part of the neural tube. No intestinal innervation is deadly. Roan and splash do not have as much genetic tracking yet. Because of how the (probably) homozygous splash horses appear to be deaf it appears that splash is likely an amino acid chain mutation like frame...but to a different gene or part of the neural tube. Deinnervation to the ear (per the QH article specifically the cochlea) is not leathal. At least not in a domestic situation. I doubt it would be helpful in the wild.

Thanks...so that is kind of what I thought...the homozygosity is the cause of the deafness. We had a similar discussion on our breed forum and that was the consensus there.

[Kinsella]

OK, I have to argue against homozyogsity (is that a word??) for splash being what makes horses deaf.
Therefore, horses with the gene that leads to the splashed white pattern have defective melanocyte migration to the nonpigmented regions of the head, and that also involves abnormal migration of the cells that play a role in the development of hearing in the inner ear, he said.

Since there is no test for splash, I don't think there would be any way to test the theory that the homozygous horses are deaf. And since Gunner does not appear to be homozygous, yet he is deaf, what does that equal? And for those that have never seen him, there are a ton of photos of him here (http://www.mcquaystables.com/Photos/plogger/?level=album&id=11). Notice his white does not touch his ears, so the theory that the ears have to be white is bunk. He also really isn't THAT loud of a splash in my opinion.

Touchstone - I also believe one should always try to breed the best to the best. That's one of the reasons I would absolutely breed to Gunner. Since you apparently don't know anything about him, here are a few snippets from his bio:
In his career, Gunner earned over $170,000 in National Reining Horse Association competition. He was the NRHA Futurity Reserve Champion in 1996, then tied for Reserve at the National Reining Breeders Classic in 1998. The charismatic stallion went on to even greater success when he won the 2001 USET Reining Championship. From the preliminaries through the finals, he was unbeaten and untied, marking a 229, 233, 226.5, and a 222 and became the USEF Breyer Model for that year. He came back and won the USET Semi-Finals in 2002, becoming the only horse ever to accomplish that twice! He was a paint world champion and the highest earning paint horse in history.

He was inducted into the National Reining Horse Association Hall of Fame in 2003.
And most important for a sire is the ability of his progeny:
In 2007, Gunner has come of age as breeding horse, as well, becoming a National Reining Horse Association Million Dollar sire. That’s a huge accomplishment, considering that his long show career kept the breeding down to a minimum for years, so he only has 145 foals with NRHA competition licenses!
His stud fee is $7500, PLUS a $1000 booking fee and his book is always full.
That pretty much sums up "the best". Should he not be bred because of an issue that does not affect him in his life (I think we have established that horses can survive in our world just fine without hearing) or career? Considering all that he has done, I would think he is exactly what we want to reproduce... And I personally don't consider deafness a heartbreaker - I consider a foal born without eyes a heartbreaker. And yes, I have seen that, and the colt was sired by an Olympic horse that we later found out had a history of throwing birth defects or having mares bred to him abort. I would have preferred the heartbreak of abortion...

Sorry to have sidetracked the HYPP thread!!!

[RiddleMeThis]

Here is the more detailed quote from the article you posted:
“Coat color-associated deafness appears to be associated with an absence of melanocyte-like cells in the stria vascularis of the cochlea of the ear,” he said. “These cells are derived from the neural crest region of the embryo. Interestingly, the melanocytes that produce coat color pigment also are derived from the neural crest."
Therefore, horses with the gene that leads to the splashed white pattern have defective melanocyte migration to the nonpigmented regions of the head, and that also involves abnormal migration of the cells that play a role in the development of hearing in the inner ear, he said.

The article says exactly what I said. It says SPLASH white. In SPLASH white horses the neural crest that colors the ears is responsible for development of the cochlea.
Not all white horses, not sabino white horses. Just splash pattern. It's not the white hair pigment that does in the hearing...it's the other developmental problems that come with the same area of the neural tube development (or lack thereof) with the splash gene.The article says exactly what I said too. The deafness is from loss of pigmentation in the ear. I never said splash white did not cause that or that other patterns did. I said it so far has not proven to be a homozygous deal. So please show me where I am wrong. I never said that sabino caused it or that tobiano caused it or something else caused it. I have no idea what your fighting with me about.

[RiddleMeThis]

In theory just the ones that are homozygous for splash....like frame overos only have leathal white foals if they are homozygous. It is known that frame is caused by an amino acid defect.In it's heterozygous form it is just a carrier, in it's homozygous form it affects the development of the nerve to the intestine from that part of the neural tube. No intestinal innervation is deadly. Roan and splash do not have as much genetic tracking yet. Because of how the (probably) homozygous splash horses appear to be deaf it appears that splash is likely an amino acid chain mutation like frame...but to a different gene or part of the neural tube. Deinnervation to the ear (per the QH article specifically the cochlea) is not leathal. At least not in a domestic situation. I doubt it would be helpful in the wild.

In theory it is homozygous horses, but that in no way has been proven at all. There are actually a herd of wild horses that have splash. They are all quite cool looking.

[RiddleMeThis]

Thanks...so that is kind of what I thought...the homozygosity is the cause of the deafness. We had a similar discussion on our breed forum and that was the consensus there.

It is theory that that is what causes the deafness but no one is completely sure yet.

[RiddleMeThis]

OK, I have to argue against homozyogsity (is that a word??) for splash being what makes horses deaf.

Since there is no test for splash, I don't think there would be any way to test the theory that the homozygous horses are deaf. And since Gunner does not appear to be homozygous, yet he is deaf, what does that equal? And for those that have never seen him, there are a ton of photos of him here (http://www.mcquaystables.com/Photos/plogger/?level=album&id=11). Notice his white does not touch his ears, so the theory that the ears have to be white is bunk. He also really isn't THAT loud of a splash in my opinion. The ears dont have to be white on the inside. He will most likely have no pigment INSIDE his ears though. HE is also why I say that it is not just a homozygous deal. He is not marked like a supposed homozygous horse would be.

Touchstone - I also believe one should always try to breed the best to the best. That's one of the reasons I would absolutely breed to Gunner. Since you apparently don't know anything about him, here are a few snippets from his bio:

And most important for a sire is the ability of his progeny:

His stud fee is $7500, PLUS a $1000 booking fee and his book is always full.
That pretty much sums up "the best". Should he not be bred because of an issue that does not affect him in his life (I think we have established that horses can survive in our world just fine without hearing) or career? Considering all that he has done, I would think he is exactly what we want to reproduce... And I personally don't consider deafness a heartbreaker - I consider a foal born without eyes a heartbreaker. And yes, I have seen that, and the colt was sired by an Olympic horse that we later found out had a history of throwing birth defects or having mares bred to him abort. I would have preferred the heartbreak of abortion... Exactly. We arent breeding FOR deafness. We arent saying hmm deafness willh elp lets find a deaf horse. Its we have a horse that is at the top of his field that happens to be deaf. Will I breed to a horse just because he is deaf or use deafness as a plus. No of course not, but it will not stop me from breeding to the best.


Sorry to have sidetracked the HYPP thread!!!

We all sidetracked it lol

[shawneeAcres]

Hey! What happened to my thread??!! Start a deaf hrose thread if thats what you want, however, it is at east a little relevant, and the most important thing is that we are likely to find eventually that ALL of our horses carry genes that may possibly cause problems in offsrping, will we stop breeding all horses becuase of it? Or maybe instead use the knowledge in ways that improve our horses, i.e. being certain not to breed two heterozygous animals together to get traits that appear only in the homozygous state. Does that mean NOT to breed heterozygoud individuals at ALL??!! I think not, unless it is a condition like HYPP that manifests itself in BOTH the homozygous and heterozygous state. We are going to be faced with more and more genetic decisions in the future, begin thinking about it NOW