Ethics in breeding

[AlexMakowski]

Howdy All. Today I was visiting a horse friend and at a rather unexpected moment she began to launch into an ethics raid about the ethics of breeding horses, knowing that we are breeders, after I sarcastically said she should breed her 19 year old mare to a pony. Complete sarcasim Her arguement entailed the idea that broodmares have become baby factories and only a mere vessel to produce foals for our own profitable well being. She said in nature mares do not have foals every year, yadda yadda. She also noted that just because its been done a certain way for so long doesnt make it right. She defended this statement with the example of michael vick and the dog fighting. Dogs fight naturally in the wild, so does that mean controlled dog fights are natural and allowable. My whole arguement was that if mares were not naturally made, or evolved to, carry a foal each year then why would they cycle in the weeks immediately following birth and become pregnant. If it were so stressful or wrong, wouldnt they just shut down their reproductive system.
Anyway, I want to know what you guys think and I will chime in over the next few days with additional point of her arguement. And on a breeding forum we may be biased, but are some of her point true? In the wild how often do mares foal?
She just kept driving the point that we are wrong for stressing the mares uterus and reproductive system because it had been done for years. We have no right to do so.
Im very curious as to what everyone else thinks because I told her that she was completely off track and she wouldnt understand because she had never bred a mare. Any being a student in science related areas I was determined to prove my point, but I may be wrong. Thanks and have fun!

[pwynnnorman]

In Cloud's herd, they seemed to foal every year. Isn't it just that, in the wild, environmental conditions may end the pregnancy? Usually, nature overdoes it to make up for the inevitable losses.

[erinwillow]

Well, I'm not quite sure what the arguements were here (Michael Vick???? :confused:) BUT I suppose I can comment on the whole uterus thing. . .um, that's what makes us female so. . ?? What was her point? Not to "overdo" the breeding by breeding every year? or that she prefers her mares to perform in competition as much as/or at least as often as they breed??

For me, my biggest ethical concerns in breeding are that we remember that , try as we might, we humans are never 100% in control. . . Aside from that, I will put good faith in humanity and hope that they breed a) for the right reasons and b) that they don't foolhartedly create "monsters" by not striving for the best possible foal. . . .

[not again]

Don't ever ask how you get that glass of milk and how the box it was poured from inside the refridgerater came to be.

[tri]

Is she a vegetarian too?

[Iron Horse Farm]

In the wild the survival rate is 40% of foals born. Sooooo would we be better breeders to let them just die "like in the wild" and not seek medical attention for them? This is a ridiculous argument. The woman is obviously a moron and not worth the discussion.

My mother used to ask when we hauled horses to the vet "what would they have done in the wild?" My answer was always the same............DIE.

[Waterwitch]

The default reproductive condition for the mare is *pregnancy*. Wild/feral horses do not "take a year off". In Sue McDonnell's feral pony herd, I think she said they had only ever had one mare not conceive on foal heat (as of 2002 when I was there), with mares achieving pregnancies every year from age 2 onwards.

[Daventry]

The default reproductive condition for the mare is *pregnancy*. Wild/feral horses do not "take a year off". In Sue McDonnell's feral pony herd, I think she said they had only ever had one mare not conceive on foal heat (as of 2002 when I was there), with mares achieving pregnancies every year from age 2 onwards.

While I do not disagree with the data on the pregancy status of wild/feral horses...unfortunately, our modern day broodmares are not in the same wild/feral environment that allows for free roaming, free foraging, fitness, etc. that is seen in the wild.

Unfortunately, not all modern day broodmares are kept, in what I would consider, the most healthy or ideal of environments. I'm sure most are (we can all hope!), but, many don't get the proper exercise, nutrition and veterinary work necessary for a stabled broodmare.

There is one broodmare in our area who has foaled SEVENTEEN times in a row (pregnant since age 3) and I feel is in need of a well deserved break. Another mare in our area will be foaling this year at age 28!!! In both cases, the foals are sold for profit each year. I'm sorry, I just don't agree with it and feel there is a great lack of empathy for the horse. I do not consider either owner a good horsewoman and don't have much respect for them. :no: While I know that broodmares can easily foal year after year without a problem, sometimes I think they just need a break, and under our ownership, certainly deserve it! For me, I see two sides to the story.

[county]

What do I think? Shers a whack job and I'd never take anything she says seriously

[Utah]

given the option, my mare would be out right now trying to get knocked up. She is disappointed in her pasture companions, to say the least.
I just have a bit of an issue when we start trying to "trick" or to get in foal a mare whose reproductive system has made it pretty clear it doesn't intend to go there on its own. If you need to practically put on a circus to get her PG, I don't know...I feel like it is somehow violating natures wishes. Sometimes there is a good reason why that mare isn't getting pregnant.
Also took issue with a breeder aquaintance who rebred the mother of one of my horses, upteen times, and finally, after the last, which just about killed her as she had hardly been able to push, her abdominal muscles were so shot...she rebred her again, as she was planning on selling her and figured she could get more. (I would have taken her and retired her had she NOT been bred) And yes, the next summer she died, the foal died...I think that was just utter selfishness.

[Waterwitch]

Unfortunately, not all modern day broodmares are kept, in what I would consider, the most healthy or ideal of environments. I'm sure most are (we can all hope!), but, many don't get the proper exercise, nutrition and veterinary work necessary for a stabled broodmare.

Agreed.

[AlexMakowski]

I completely agree that aged mares should be given a well deserved retirement and that if you have to play the circus act to get her pregnant than maybe you should just let the mare have some time. But like you said, in the wild they breed on foal heats. I was laughing because my friend just wouldnt hear the whole natural arguement. If she wasnt meant to bred that the mare would know, but they continue to cycle and tease stallions. This is golden though. her answer was. I have my period and that doesnt mean Im going to have a kid every year. At which point I said, thats why we are the greater beings in this conversation. We have evolved to become the intellectual "leader" among organism. We can fight primative or instinct related feelings. Horses are primative. They act off these feelings. haha. Thanks so much guys. I was starting to feel like a bad person for a split second yesterday, but then I realized that she was over reacting. And Yes. She was a vegetarian too for a greater portion of her life.

[daisyduke]

Although I agree wild horses reproduce annually, I'm curious as to what the statistics are for live birth and life expectancy. I'm sure breeders are more concerned about the health of the foal but more importantly the health of the broodmare. I think if a mare is healthy and not too senior, there is nothing immoral with breeding them every year.

[Fairview Horse Center]

It is long proven that a mare's reproductive tract is kept in better shape if in foal. Just like muscles, if you don't use them, you lose them. If they are healthy, we don't give them a year off of riding since they have been under saddle for 5, 10 or 15 years.

Watch your mares, and if they are physically having issues, it may be time for a break. About 30 years ago, I worked for a farm with an older broodmare that looked "rough" and tired. They put her in riding work for 6 months, and she looked like a new mare. Sometimes broodmares get in the habit of not getting enough exercise - standing around at the hay pile with their buddies. That mare came back and had several more foals, but an effort was made to keep her in some work when possible. She looked much better.

I gave both myself and my older girls a year off last year, and both are back expecting this spring - took first cycle, no flushing, regumate, etc. I will watch them, and let them tell me when they need a break, or they are done.

[pwynnnorman]

There is one broodmare in our area who has foaled SEVENTEEN times in a row (pregnant since age 3) and I feel is in need of a well deserved break.


My mare had 17, with only one year off somewhere in there. I retired her at age 24. At 28 she's still enjoying life to the fullest. It does make me feel good that she's had a good life. I don't feel guilty about all the foals she's had--she was a great mare: "bred and built for babies," so she did what she was meant to do for all those years. If she had struggled, I wouldn't have pushed the issue, but I just don't see why NOT to, if all is well, y'know? Her daughter is now 17 herself and working on baby #12. (I think--she, too, had one year off) and I haven't really thought about retiring her (in fact, that she's 17 came as a bit of a shock to me--I'd forgotten how old she's getting, so unchanging has her condition been.) But again (and I sure hope I'm not jinxing her now!), the daughter is like her mom: bred and built for having babies. So if that's what nature intended, I don't get what can be wrong with it. (Am I missing something in this discussion?)

[Fairview Horse Center]

To me, pregnancy and nursing takes care of its own break(s). For 6 months, the mare is a mom, and is nursing, but a new pregnacy does not demand much. Physycally, the pregnancy does not get too be a burden until about 9 months. Heck, many people make their horses carry as much weight as term pregnancy all year AND ride them, because they think they look good fat.

They also get about 6 months off of the mental part of mothering, although that too is much less demanding after the first month or so, when babies pretty much are on their own, visiting mom when hungry.

[ise@ssl]

Well I feel there is some hard reality in the business. Could mares become pregnant every year? Probably some mares can but we also feel mares are not factories and we don't need to have our mares producing every single year.

We read in the news constantly how many horses are going to rescues because people just can't keep them. I know of no where in the country that the cost of keeping horses properly is going down. The cost of land, hay, feed, just about everything is going up - so every horse or pony produced should be seriously considered for it's usefullness.

For the woman who breeds her ponies every year and always has foals - have they all gone on the productive lives? All of them?

We are backing down on our breeding after 20 years. We feel it's more responsible for us to breed fewer horses and ponies - not as many as we can every year single year.

And I do agree - TRUE FERAL HORSES - are just that WILD. They have predators to deal with on a regular basis. They have no vaccinations. They have no wormers. They have drastic weather situations to deal with. And they have injuries which can cause their demise which would probably not be considered something that can't be healed in a domestic situation. And there is survival of the FITTEST. Which means - some don't survive.

I do have serious objections as a breeder to people who will go to any length to keep their mares bred every year and use every hormone or chemical to make it happen. As a woman I wouldn't want that done to me - so I won't do it to my wonderful mares. They are not machines.

[eqsiu]

Well, reproductive efficiency does drop off as a horse ages, but my personal opinion is if she comes through a pregnancy in good condition there is no reason not to rebreed into their early 20's. I did ride my pregnant mares-they foxhunted first field into their 8th month. I started them back when the foal was 8 weeks and they were confirmed pregnant again. Basically, I stopped riding when they got too big to be comfortable under saddle, and started riding again when the foal was old enough to not be a humongo distraction (I had one mare that would not be ridden if she had a foal-nothing you could do was going to keep her from being an overprotective worrywort). One mare lost a lot of weight at the end of her pregnancy and looked like shit for a while, so we left her open and concentrated on getting her back into tip top health. I think your friend is a bit zealous.

Of course, economics sometimes dictate not breeding...but that's a different story.