Spin-off: What, exactly, do hunter breeding division handlers DO?

[pwynnnorman]

I asked a well-known guy this (although he does more with sport horses--and he does more than handle at shows as he has a "program" at home for prepping them, too), but he absolutely would not answer me. Said it was a trade secret.

I suspect he is not the norm, given the press he's gotten (he's found a marketing niche, I suspect). But when it comes to "real" handlers, specifically in hunters, what are the techniques that make them such a requisite?

(This is said, admittedly, with a little skepticism--but I'd like to be convinced otherwise--and I do have a reason for my attitude, not that one bad experience should be used to represent an entire profession. It's just that I did go all out at one point to have a filly campaigned and when she finally got to our destination show, the handler did something that just blew it totally--yanked straight down on the bars of her mouth, causing her to rear and to thereafter have a very hollow, tense topline. Now, again a disclaimer: the handler I'd hired took the 2nd placed horse into the ring instead of mine that day, handing mine over to someone else. I don't know who the someone else was, alas, but he was dressed for the part, so I assume he had at least some credibility as a handler.)

So...there are goods and bads everywhere. What exactly do the good ones do?

[TrueColours]

Just like the top hunter/jumper catch riders can "read" their horses and assess how they like to be ridden and go their best, the top HB handlers will be able to read their charges and determine how to present them in their best possible light ...

BUT

This is all for nought *IF* the horse isnt ready to step off the trailer and win at that show. The handler can present them in their best light - have them standing up 100% correctly - have them jog in the perfect manner - have them walk and really use themselves in doing so, but the owner has to put in all of the mileage and schooling time at home to get them to that stage. The handler can do none of it at the 11th hour, at a show if the basics are not there already.

When I was getting my Faux Finish filly ready to show, she had one show as a yearling - our big Royal Winter Fair horse show - and leading up to that, she went on a few trailer rides and "hung out" at friends places while I had a cup of coffee and she chilled out in the barn. Literally every day we "schooled" in some manner. As we went for walks and moseyed around the property, eating grass, we'd have little 10 or 20 second "schooling" sessions as well where she had to jog, or stand, or go back. She absolutely HAD to pay attention at those time, and when she got it right, that was the end of the session for that day

We didnt do much over the winter and in the spring of her 2nd year old year, we had a few 2 or 3 minute long "brush up" sessions and then in May I shipped her down for 6 weeks to Ray Francis. She arrived on a Monday night, on Wednesday she did her first show with Ray, won her class under both judges and was Best Young Horse at the show. Ray simply presented her in the absolute best light possible, giving a tweak here and there, encouraging her to drop her head, etc but she was rock solid in her basics upon her arrival and that made all the difference in the world

I think - honestly - people expect catch riders and catch handlers to work miracles. If the hunter has major issues (or even minor ones) at home before they get to a show, the catch rider will only be able to hide and finesse so much. Its the same with the youngsters in the HB classes - do your groundwork at home first and have them arrive at the show fully capable of winning every class they enter. THEN the handler can do their job and really shine with that youngster! :)

[alliekat]

Well said True Colours!!!

[lauriep]

Aside from handling them in the ring, where they must immediately get a strange horse to trust and listen to them, be able to immediately assess faults and virtues and thus know what to hide and what to showcase, and be absolutely ring savvy and alert to the judge's position, they must also be superb conditioners of horses in their own barns, good PR people who know how to interact with clients and good judges of conformation so as to be able to help prospective clients understand their baby's strengths and weaknesses, how it will affect their immediate in hand career and how it will impact their future performance career.

Conditioning a HB baby is an art, an art that many owners aren't capable of. And getting these youngsters to listen and stand still is all about respect and empathy. Junior can stand one up PERFECTLY and ask me to hold it for a SECOND so he can step back and BAM! Horse moves the minute I touch the reins. Which is why I do the horse care and prep!

[staceyk]

I did the dressage sport horse breed shows last year, so I'm going to try hunter breed shows this year. I get the impression that there might be less tolerance for baby antics at the hunter breed shows, and that the training is more important at hunter breed shows. They want them standing "just so" or they won't pin as well. Am I right? I could easily be mistaken, no one has told me this outright.

My main goal is to get my horse out and about, but also he is still downhill at 2 (he will be a big boy) and I'm thinking he might do better at the hunter shows. Plus the hunter breed shows are closer and more plentiful!

[VirginiaBred]

Lauriep said it quite well.

BNH's know exactly how to showcase the animal, to hide imperfections, how fast to walk, jog, when to start, stop, what angle to stand, where it's head needs to be to show off the shoulder to it's advantage............so many things.

Right or wrong, when a BNH is hired, that frequently sends a message that that animal is probably pretty damn good, so maybe I'd better take a good look......

It's not at all unusual for a BNH to not hold something just because they have been asked if they feel they have another one that could be the winner.

[staceyk]

Can they only handle one per class?

SEK

[Janet]

Can they only handle one per class?

SEK
Since all the horses are in the ring at the same time, it would be a bit difficult to handle more than one!

[staceyk]

Hi,

I know that in championship classes at sport horse shows, a co-handler or the owner might hold a horse until it's time to trot out. Then the "real" handler takes over. Of course that wouldn't work if the conformation is judged all at once.

I've never seen a hunter breed show, so I'm at a disadvantage. Experience is the best teacher...

[Janet]

All the horses walk around the ring in line together. They trot down the center of the ring, one right after another. They line up head to tail for the conformation judging. The judge may revise the order of the horses at any point, or may wait until the end to put them in order. Sometimes they skip the trot. Some times they do it in a different order. But there is no practical way for a single handler to handle more than one horse. Except with mares and foals, there is no "co handler".

[lauriep]

Actually, and I hate to ever disagree with you, Janet, because I learn ever so much from you, but you can, and some do and we have, handle more than one, just as stacy describes. I first saw a very well known handler from PA do it, and we wondered if it was legal. Yup, because it is not specifically forbidden, you can. So, at the same show, we got in a jam for enough handlers and I told Junior to go ahead and use his strategy against him. We did, we won, he wasn't happy!

We had 3 in a class at Warrenton. Junior had one, I had one and a client had one and he stood each in its turn for exam and then jogged each one. Of course, on the final look, we were on our own, but the decision is usually pretty much made by that time. Which is a good thing because I sure as hell can't stand one up!!!

[TrueColours]

lauriep - the only show (I believe) that specifically says a handler can only handle one horse per class is Devon. I believe that the loophole still exists at all of the other ones ...

[lauriep]

That is correct. Devon expressly forbids it, you can't even have someone jog one for you. All the other shows we go to allow it. But we try not to use it unless there is absolutely no other option.

[Janet]

Interesting. Thanks for the enlightenment. But not commonly done, I think.

(If I am wrong, I am wrong. No reason to "hate to disagree with" me.)

[crystalacresponies]

The rule of one handler per horse has been removed from the Devon prize list. Certain of it.
Someone can jog now.

[Clear Blue]

Wow - never thought that would happen.

It will be interesting to see how things go this year. Often the judges start at opposite ends. Two horses are always being judged at the same time until they jog individually. How can they be assured that the handler will be able to present each horse? Are they going to hold up the class?

The handler still has to chose one horse to lead into the ring - as judging "can" start as soon as one enters.

[pwynnnorman]

BNH's know exactly how to showcase the animal, to hide imperfections, how fast to walk, jog, when to start, stop, what angle to stand, where it's head needs to be to show off the shoulder to it's advantage............so many things.


This is not a surprise. Nor, obviously, is the need for homework. However, none of this is rocket science and no reason why an amateur can't do it (and aren't there ammy handler classes as is?).

Morover--and most imporptantly from my perspective, frankly--I've just not seen the distinctions you folks are discussing:

I've not seen the horses react (well, ponies--maybe horses are different, I haven't watched them much) to handlers the way you imply (granted, I'll tell you that my filly DID in her earlier shows because she was boarded at the handler's barn and so schooled by him and familiar with him, etc.).

I've not seen any significant difference in handling (lots in temperament) from one entry to another, except lesser performances which seem equally likely with BNTs holding the reins as LNTs (lots of poor behavior, weak trots, improper stands [NOT to the pony's advantage, that is--just not standing and needing a lot of adjustment right in front of the judges)], even not displaying the topline/neck impressively--and so on and so on.

And, lastly, I've had associates hire BNT handlers who took the reins without even having someone stand the baby up for them to know what it looked like, much less how it needed to be held. Indeed, this is an example of why I'm asking. I don't mean to be derogatory--I want to discuss this and truly want to know specifics. Maybe sometimes "catch handling" isn't worthwhile, for example? Maybe you're better off handling your own baby than using some or certain pro handlers because some pros don't clue into the baby as well and so might actually make things worse (especially if you don't board your baby with them so they can get to know it--that's what I did and I'm sure it helped my filly at the shows).

Honesty, again. Here's why I'm trying to press this issue: I had the equine dentist out the other day and the stuff she told me about just how true my suspicions on that subject are continues to rock me (and she's a DVM/"cEqDT" and so good, she's having a custom-made horse trailer produced to have a full mobile "operating" room-like set up. I suspect in this high-roller day of horsedom, there are far too many instances of wasting money because a pro needs to make money and/or of just not getting our money's worth because we're "sold" a bill of goods (whatever that saying means).

So, how 'bout it? Can we cut to the chase and get some solid stuff here? If I were to consider a BNT handler, what, besides his/her NAME (sigh), should I look for in his or her techniques, policies, what he/she SAYS in response to my inquiry...or whatever? When I sent my filly before, I went ONLY with the name--and I was happy enough with the results, including where she placed in our destination event and in spite of her being handed over to someone else (I can understand that--my only wish would have been to have been informed in advance, just as a courtesy).

Please, convince me it's more than just the name? I want to be convinced because by being convinced I can also become more educated. OK? I really hope you can understand what I mean and my motivations.

[Janet]

Yes, they have amateur handler classes, but it is not entirely clear what they are judged on.

When Brain had a goose-egg sized splint, I took him in the Amateur Handler class at Warrenton instead of the Yearling class, and we were third out of 7 or 8. While he had a fair amount of elbow grease in his turnout, he / I beat other horses which I thought were better turned out (which is what it was supposed to be judged on).

[VirginiaBred]

So, how 'bout it? Can we cut to the chase and get some solid stuff here? If I were to consider a BNT handler, what, besides his/her NAME (sigh), should I look for in his or her techniques, policies, what he/she SAYS in response to my inquiry...or whatever? When I sent my filly before, I went ONLY with the name--and I was happy enough with the results, including where she placed in our destination event and in spite of her being handed over to someone else (I can understand that--my only wish would have been to have been informed in advance, just as a courtesy).

Please, convince me it's more than just the name? I want to be convinced because by being convinced I can also become more educated. OK? I really hope you can understand what I mean and my motivations.

Watching over and over will answer your questions more than answers here. Based on your (many) questions it seems you haven't done enough of that.

Besides, they're BNH's because of their technique. If it was so easy to lay out here on a thread, we wouldn't use them, now would we? Do you really think a good BNH is going to have full disclosure? :lol:

[staceyk]

Hi,

The USDF video on sport horses in hand starts to "get at" the subtleties of handling, I wish I had bought it BEFORE last season.

I guess it is kind of like talking about what is a good rider, although riding is a lot more complex. Most of us have encountered the horseman that just gets more out of a horse than other people do, and you can't put your finger on why. When my trainer works with my two year old she commands Riley's attention and gets that "ideal" performance with far more consistency than I do. Bruce Griffin handled my horse last year, and Riley really responded to him too.

I'm guessing it is 70% technique/experience, and 30% charisma. Some people just have it.

Now whether that really makes a big enuf difference to affect placing? Maybe not all the time, but if it matters to you you'll want to stack the deck as much as you can.

My .02.

[pwynnnorman]

Actually, stacey, when a rider can't tell me what they do, I usually just chalk it up to them being inarticulate, not to it being impossible to describe. Even saying, "I feel..." is to articulate something, after all. There's always something actually being done--some of us are just better at describing it than others...while some really are just guessing, BSing or actually just handling/riding a great horse.

And THAT isn't just me talking. Ask BNT trainers (well, those outside of h-j, perhaps) and most will be honest with you about that.

Er...and, VABred:

Watching over and over will answer your questions more than answers here. Based on your (many) questions it seems you haven't done enough of that.

You grew up steeped in this stuff and are quite articulate. Why don't you handle your own and why can't you provide some input here? It's not rocket science--I ride FEI level dressage. It's super silly for you to claim its that subtle to someone who rides at a high level. We're talking about LEADING horses, for heavens sake. If I can do a piaffe-passage tour and a pretty good job (as any educated rider with an eye) of critiquing a ride, I assure you, I (and folks like me) can probably see at least MOST of what a handler is doing, if not all of it. And it should hardly take dozens of classes (although I've watched far more than that). Again, that just makes no sense-it's no near as complicated as, say, evaluating/judging a dressage test (which I've done), much less actually teaching dressage (or any discipline), which I've also done.

See what I mean, though? VABred, I don't know how much riding or training you've done, but, geez, surely, doesn't it seem strange to you that handling a horse should be treated like some great mystery when piaffes and pirouettes can be critiqued and debated and discussed in detail ad nauseum? My word, I've actually trained horses to piaffe and pirouette and do flying changes while being ground driven. Surely, I'm not being arrogant here by saying I should bloody well be able to appreciate what a hunter breeding handler does. Heck, SPORT HORSE handlers are quite, quite specific about what they do--and the sport horse world is quite happy to educate others so they, too, can participate. (Whoa, this is really getting to me now. Well, good. It's been a dreary, gray day. I needed to get my blood up a bit!)

And now I've gotten several private emails and PMs--one of which pointed out quite amazingly to me something I never DID notice much before: THERE ARE NO TOP WOMEN INVOLVED IN HUNTER BREEDING HANDLING!!! Egad, and yet most of the horses are actually owned by women--and the top ones by women breeders (like you, VABred!).

VABred, why don't you handle your own? Surely, after all these years, surely you must know the techniques. Ladies, (and now I'm laughing to myself, where's the "head shaking in amazement" icon?) what IS going on here!!!:eek:

[staceyk]

The ability to analyze and articulate varies among riders, certainly, and probably handlers too. In Ride with Your Mind, Mary Wanless claims to have learnt what the "naturally gifted" riders do but cannot always explain. When it comes to something so beautiful as grand prix movements, or the rapt attention of my yearling gave to Bruce Griffin, a complete stranger, I don't mind if there is a little mystery :-).

It's a respectable debate, and an interesting one!

[pwynnnorman]

Rapt attention, huh? Well, I'll admit to believing there could be something to that. I knew someone who was little more than a novice, but my goodness did stallions seem to respect her inordinately.

Ya think maybe your Bruce just, like, I dunno--smelled real good or something? :)

[VirginiaBred]

Er...and, VABred:


You grew up steeped in this stuff and are quite articulate. Why don't you handle your own and why can't you provide some input here? It's not rocket science--I ride FEI level dressage. It's super silly for you to claim its that subtle to someone who rides at a high level. We're talking about LEADING horses, for heavens sake. If I can do a piaffe-passage tour and a pretty good job (as any educated rider with an eye) of critiquing a ride, I assure you, I (and folks like me) can probably see at least MOST of what a handler is doing, if not all of it. And it should hardly take dozens of classes (although I've watched far more than that). Again, that just makes no sense-it's no near as complicated as, say, evaluating/judging a dressage test (which I've done), much less actually teaching dressage (or any discipline), which I've also done.

See what I mean, though? VABred, I don't know how much riding or training you've done, but, geez, surely, doesn't it seem strange to you that handling a horse should be treated like some great mystery when piaffes and pirouettes can be critiqued and debated and discussed in detail ad nauseum? My word, I've actually trained horses to piaffe and pirouette and do flying changes while being ground driven. Surely, I'm not being arrogant here by saying I should bloody well be able to appreciate what a hunter breeding handler does. Heck, SPORT HORSE handlers are quite, quite specific about what they do--and the sport horse world is quite happy to educate others so they, too, can participate. (Whoa, this is really getting to me now. Well, good. It's been a dreary, gray day. I needed to get my blood up a bit!)

And now I've gotten several private emails and PMs--one of which pointed out quite amazingly to me something I never DID notice much before: THERE ARE NO TOP WOMEN INVOLVED IN HUNTER BREEDING HANDLING!!! Egad, and yet most of the horses are actually owned by women--and the top ones by women breeders (like you, VABred!).

VABred, why don't you handle your own? Surely, after all these years, surely you must know the techniques. Ladies, (and now I'm laughing to myself, where's the "head shaking in amazement" icon?) what IS going on here!!!:eek:

Oh we have, Pwynn, we have. At all the top shows and won there. But, after doing it for so many years, we wanted to watch from the side for a change. After going through the blood, sweat and sometimes tears (or wringing of hands) it has been wonderful to have Oliver, Richard, Junior, Billy or whomever hold so we can appreciate the fruits of our labor.

You are 100% right, that there aren't any BNH women, and I'm not happy about that. I showed Otteridge Dreamin' of Blue (then called Checkmark) her entire three years on the line and was high score Champion with her. Black Hawk, Pow Wow and (so many others) were all shown by me until Richard Taylor said he could do better. And he did! :)
I've definitely had the show on both feet. It's work! But fun!!!

[VirginiaBred]

I will add that I often "harp" on the need for anyone that is considering getting into breeding do their homework. Regardless if you were raised in the profession or not, I am always learning something new, as the sport changes so much every couple of years. That is why I suggested that you (Pwynn, or anyone else) needs to devote a lot of time watching....................everything in the in hand classes. You'll see the subtle moves and little things these BNH's do.

Hope that helps!

[lauriep]

What are you trying so desperately to hear, wyn? POLITICS????? There, I said it. Yes, they exist, and it is a rare ammy that can beat the known pro, just on face recognition. Is this right? Of course not, but in any subjectively judged event, it is going to enter in. Do you really think Kenny has had the BYH at Devon for 20+ years? Certainly he has had many, but just as certainly, not all. And there are judge/handler relationships that become clear as you watch. Not a lot, but some. And, just because a BNH has the name doesn't mean they are all good. But I can honestly tell you that I have seen VERY few amateur handlers that are as good as a good pro.

But, as I pointed out above, and if you watch at the really good shows, like Devon, Upperville, Warrenton, IHF (there aren't any of these shows in FL, I'm afraid, and a small pool of handlers), you WILL see the things that you seem to be missing.

And FL, before you get mad at me, I am not meaning to be dergatory. It is just a fact of your geography that you are rather isolated and are a (relatively) small group, with some nice horses. Just geographically speaking, you'll see more handlers further north, and particularly at the huge shows mentioned above.

[Fairview Horse Center]

re Hunter Breeding: There are SO many finesse moves that I have seen work, AND clues, and silent communication from the judge also needs to be read.

I was watching at Warrenton one year, and a BN handler was showing a horse. He was standing him up for the judge, and the judge looked SO LONG. To ME it was clear that the judge was saying, Hey, I don't quite like something in the way he is standing NOW, MOVE him so I can see better." Finally the handler, "pretended" to "think" the judge had finished his look, and did that "uber casual" stroll away. After about 2 steps, he "pretended" to suddenly notice the judge was still looking at him, and "postured", "oops, sorry, I didn't realize you were still looking at HIM. Here I will set him back up for you". So then he completed a circle, and restood him up. He won the class. A move like that takes a LOT of handler confidence, and acting also plays a part. To me is looked SO phony, but it worked.

I also think BN Hunter Breeding handlers get the same confidence factor that the European Dressage judges express to International riders. I was reading an article once interviewing a judge. They were discussing a score given to a up and coming rider that rode a brilliant test, but received a good, but not outstanding score. The judge said, "at this point, we don't have the confidence in her. As we see her more, we will become more confident in her ability, and her scores will get higher." I was dumbfounded. Score what is in front of you!!! Nope, I guess NO ONE but me was angry at that attitude. The reaction was ok, yep, that is fine and acceptable. NO IT IS NOT.

I often use my friends in DSHB classes, but I would NEVER do that for Hunter Breeding. If I am going to show up, I WILL play the game. In DSHB, my best results have been with my friends that I have helped to know how to be good, and they follow my program. IMO, that would just never happen in Hunter Breeding. I believe a BN handler is necessary to get a fair look in Hunter breeding, like that the judges feel if you REALLY had a good horse, you WOULD hire a pro.

I also noticed and commented on the fact that men dominated the placings in Hunter Breeding back in 1991. I have not seen a change.

As for the DSHB people sharing methods, we share "some" ;) I will be happy to share what I see OTHERS do and win, but may not give away all of MY secrets. :lol:

[TrueColours]

Fairview - what you described in the dressage ring is also what goes on in figure skating all the time with the "newbie's. Put in the time, pay your dues and if you lay down a performance THEN like you did now, thats when you'll win and not before ... ;)

I opted to handle my filly as a 2 year old down at the Merrill Lynch Classic in OH with Betty Oare judging. I adore Betty as a judge and felt that she would judge what was in front of her and not WHO was hanging on to the reins and thats exactly what she did. I came in as a total "nobody from Canada" among the locals and we won the 2 year old class and went Best Young Horse as well over some very nice horses ...

This is probably some of the best examples I have of how well a "catch" handler can read their charge in the ring

This was at Warrenton in 2006 with my then 2 year old filly. Sam Manno was handling her and he had never touched her before Warrenton.

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Chamois-Warrenton-Sep06-5.jpg

In this picture, the judge is on her right side and Sam is holding her head and neck in position while allowing the right rein to drop and float, giving her a picture of softness and compliance and relaxation ...

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Chamois-Warrenton-Sep06-8.jpg

Linda moved behind her now and she wanted to crank her head and neck around and have a look but Sam opened both reins off to the side to keep her head and neck in the correct position as well as down and forward towards him ...

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Chamois-Warrenton-Sep06-9.jpg

Linda is now on her right side, she wanted to take a look again, so Sam dropped the right rein and held and opened on the left to keep her head and neck in position once again

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Chamois-Warrenton-Sep06-10.jpg

He now picked up the right rein once again as Linda passed over to the left side once again and is starting to relax and drop the left rein ...

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Chamois-Warrenton-Sep06-11.jpg

Linda is now in front, there is no further contact with her mouth, she is now encouraged to look forwards towards the judge

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Chamois-Warrenton-Sep06-12.jpg

Same in this picture - no contact, draping reins, allowing her to focus her attention to the front ...

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Chamois-Warrenton-Sep06-14.jpg

Prior to the walk and jog, Sam was talking to her and rubbing her neck, she totally relaxed, dropped her head and neck and then:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Chamois-Warrenton-Sep06-15.jpg

Walked off in the same manner - long, low, loose and totally relaxed - not anticipating at all, not tense, just totally happy

THAT in a nutshell, is what I want to see in a "catch handler". Someone who can read the horse, finesse anything that might go wrong and empathizes with them enough to give them a scritch and a pat to relax them

And most importantly of all? A handler that recognizes and respects the hopes, dreams and investment I have in that animal they are holding in the ring and handles them accordingly ... :)

[3Dogs]

I watch a lot of handlers. They certainly know the tricks of how to show off a fine young horse to the best of their (its) ability. That said, I think there is a lot that goes on behind the scenesbefore the shows -
I was told I should send my youngster for at least two months before the show I was interested in to get "fit" and "trained" . The fit part included being exercised on the treadmill daily - for a yearling:eek: - the training part didn't bother me (knowing my youngster :lol:).

For me, I chose not to send her away. And decided I was not up to being a "competitive" amateur handler so I am just waiting for the under saddle years:winkgrin: and then I will go to my trainer who knows all those "riding" tricks I can't master :lol:
Those at the top of the game do a fine job showing off the youngsters and there is an art to settling that child at just the right moment - although I don't like it when the yearlings and two year olds look drugged they are so "quiet" - just as it burns me when hunters get dinged for playing in the corners!

I agree with Pwynn that at the top, it is a tight boys club :yes:

[pwynnnorman]

Curious Jorge, to call something "simple," especially in a comparative way, is hardly BASHING -- you can disagree if you want to, but in MY opinion, hunters are simpler than dressage, OK? That's just the way I see it -- and I'm GLAD they are. Hunters are far more popular, numbers-wise, than dressage horses in this country because they are simpler, thank goodness. Who would want to foxhunt a complicated horse? Who wants all that huffing and puffing that goes on in dressage sometimes? Simpler doesn't mean easier, although easy is also a justifiable trait in a show hunter (or at least LOOKING easy)...anyway, I digress.


What are you trying so desperately to hear, wyn? POLITICS?????


Er, what the techniques are? Ain't that what I said?

For example, the neck stretch: what's the best thing to do with the bat? I've heard of keeping one stuck in the sweet feed bin, having a peppermint in the popper, etc., etc. Do different things work better for different horses?

And what kind of stances work with different conformation "issues" (not calling them flaws)? Is it better to back a horse into position than to walk it forward? Is it a PROBLEM (this one, I really, really wonder about) to be "fussing" (looks like fussing to me) with the horse while the judge is looking at it? OR OR OR OR is that a technique to obscure something? (That'd be kinda cool/sophisticated.)

Indeed, I never got the answer to my question about what one would ask a handler in deciding who to hire. I would think that's a really good, useful question!

Why be defensive? These things don't and shouldn't be secrets, obscure or guesswork. There's been discussion in publications about beefing up hunter breeding, giving it a facelift or making it more popular or whatever. Maybe taking the friggin' mystery (and, yes, suspicion and good ol' boy flavor) out of it, like sporthorse folks, would HELP.

Maybe you should write an article about how to do it, VABred? I think I can remember something written way, way back when, but not lately.

[SilverBalls]

It's nice to see VA bred, LaurieP, 3Dogs weighing in.. they are an example of three accomplished and knowledgeble women who have spent lots of time... both on the front lines and behind the secnes in HB. I respect them and others immensely.
I am not quite sure what the OP is trying to accomplish, other than having nothing better to do than with the extra energy provided by too much caffeine. :D

[fish]

Er, what the techniques are? Ain't that what I said?

For example, the neck stretch: what's the best thing to do with the bat? I've heard of keeping one stuck in the sweet feed bin, having a peppermint in the popper, etc., etc. Do different things work better for different horses?

And what kind of stances work with different conformation "issues" (not calling them flaws)? Is it better to back a horse into position than to walk it forward? Is it a PROBLEM (this one, I really, really wonder about) to be "fussing" (looks like fussing to me) with the horse while the judge is looking at it? OR OR OR OR is that a technique to obscure something? (That'd be kinda cool/sophisticated.)

Indeed, I never got the answer to my question about what one would ask a handler in deciding who to hire. I would think that's a really good, useful question!



I'll take a stab at a couple of your questions: e.g., the bat and the neck stretch. Unfortunately, and not too unlike a lot of horse training topics, the answer does, IMO, lie in "different things work better for different horses"--- and at different times, too. In my relatively minimal experience, one of the biggest problems faced by handlers trying to get that "look of eagles" from a horse at show after show is boredom-- so a technique that worked like a charm for months suddenly might not work anymore. The best handlers have multiple tricks (and/or props) up their sleeves (and/or in their pockets, hats, etc.) to deal with this problem quickly. For some horses, the rattle of a graham cracker or peppermint wrapper will work every time, for others, a live fly in a prescription drug container might do the trick.

Then, of course, there's the challenge of arousing the horse's interest enough to get that stretch, but not to the extent that s/he spoils his/her balanced look by leaning or stepping out of position.

As to the ? of why we "ladies" don't do it ourselves-- some of us do-- when our major goal is to give a young horse some exposure and have a bit of a fun learning experience ourselves. Just as with showing under saddle or o/f, however, if I really want to give a horse the best possible shot at winning/being shown to best advantage, I will hire an established professional-- hopefully one whose experience has given him or her skills far superior to my own. That might, indeed, support the notion/prejudice that the best horses will be in the hands of BN handlers, but, as others have pointed out, hunter breed shows are hardly the only sport marred by this kind of "politics." It just seems to come with the territory of subjectively judged sports.

As for deciding "what to ask a handler in deciding who to hire," I don't think my decision would be based on answers a handler would give to my questions, but rather what I see him/her DOING with the horses-- especially mine. A good reputation/big name is nice, but doesn't mean much to me if the handler's methods don't work well with my particular horse. Hiring a BN professional is, indeed, a waste of $ if I could do as good or better a job myself.

[SilverBalls]

"the notion/prejudice that the best horses will be in the hands of BN handlers, but, as others have pointed out, hunter breed shows are hardly the only sport marred by this kind of "politics."

As for deciding "what to ask a handler in deciding who to hire," I don't think my decision would be based on answers a handler would give to my questions, but rather what I see him/her DOING with the horses-- especially mine. A good reputation/big name is nice, but doesn't mean much to me if the handler's methods don't work well with my particular horse.


I agree 100%! Personally, I tend to show in front of judges that will be less political. In my opinion, last year was a disaster for HB as far as judging was concerned. By that I mean, we saw the same judges at all the MAJOR events. I would wager to say the classes were pinned before anyone went in the ring...just my opinion of course! ;) I stopped showing my horses right after Devon last year.

I look forward to a better 2008, one can only hope. A GOOD judge will truly judge the class objectively. Is that too much to ask for? :confused:

I am very excited about this year's shows and the officials that have been asked to participate. I also look forward to some new faces in HB... both handlers and owners!

[VirginiaBred]

Writing an article would have me voted most unpopular by my BNH friends, so no thanks!

I do think the OP is trying have full disclosure by professionals, and that's not going to happen. As stated earlier, they're Professional Handlers for a reason, and what one does, the other may not, and as previously stated by fish, find the one that after watching you feel will best suit your baby.

(That's why we pay them.........)

[Irish Ei's]

Oh we have, Pwynn, we have. At all the top shows and won there. But, after doing it for so many years, we wanted to watch from the side for a change. After going through the blood, sweat and sometimes tears (or wringing of hands) it has been wonderful to have Oliver, Richard, Junior, Billy or whomever hold so we can appreciate the fruits of our labor.

You are 100% right, that there aren't any BNH women, and I'm not happy about that. I showed Otteridge Dreamin' of Blue (then called Checkmark) her entire three years on the line and was high score Champion with her. Black Hawk, Pow Wow and (so many others) were all shown by me until Richard Taylor said he could do better. And he did! :)
I've definitely had the show on both feet. It's work! But fun!!!



Pwynn..Newbie chiming in here.....

Essentially what you're doing here is asking the Professor for the answers to the Questions on the Final Exam because you haven't bothered to go to class!!

I've quietly watched VB and others here, and let others ask the questions
And Last season, when our local Association added Breeding classes to our ONLY horseshow, I asked the dumb, naive questions.
And got the experienced, common sense answers.

Ray Francis was our judge.
Ray Francis agreed to give a Clinic 3 days before the Show....
So I went.
I have no babies to show, no babies at all.
But I went.
And I learned TONS!!
And man, did we laugh and enjoy these babies.

A week later, I was honored to meet several of the country's TOP pony breeders, as I was welcomed and encouraged to join them at Devon.
I laughed. I cried. But I learned...at MY expense.
And I'm doing it again this year..both locally, and back to Devon to watch how the Yearlings I saw last year have blossomed into 2 year olds.

Don't be cheap..Just shut up and Go do your own homework.

[ASB Stars]

I showed in the hunter breeding division MANY years ago. I had a client who bred TBs, and she liked to have them handled and shown before they went to the track- if, indeed, they ended up going.

She had nice stock, and we had a great time, and won a bunch. The boys club of that time included Jerry Goldman, Doug Hannum, and several of the guys who are still showing today. Without a doubt, Doug was the kindest, and most gentlemanly- even coming up to me in the ring, and shaking my hand, when my colt beat his. The politics were discouraging- no doubt. And there are some real weasles out there, but no more than in other businesses.

Now that I am an amateur, I still show my own, but only in sport horse classes, at this point. However, as an experiment, I hired a pro to show my guys a couple of years back, and his scores with the same horses, were lower. I do not attribute this to anything other than the fact that I have a longer, deeper connection with these horses. But I mention it because those of you who are scared off by the pros, and don't end up showing your own, should give it a shot! :yes:

Recently, a friend who is working for a TB hunter breeding farm called and asked if I could give them a hand showing this year, oddly enough. I don't know that I'd do it again, but it certainly brought back the memories, as did this thread.

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

It's nice to see VA bred, LaurieP, 3Dogs weighing in.. they are an example of three accomplished and knowledgeble women who have spent lots of time... both on the front lines and behind the secnes in HB. I respect them and others immensely.
I am not quite sure what the OP is trying to accomplish, other than having nothing better to do than with the extra energy provided by too much caffeine. :D

* Amen..and having had to "fill in" for some of the fine handlers mentioned for two minutes has always resulted in me embarrassing myself and the poor animal at the other end of the bridle. Kudos to the race folk too, who start their youngsters in the h/b ring..and lets not forget the presenters at the top yearling sales! It is, to my mind indeed, "Rocket Science"... and I am lost in admiration.

[Fred]

I agree with with One* just said, and what many, like VB and LaurieP have already said.
It does *look* fairly simple, but the times I have done it myself, it has been a humbling experience.
One time I took one of my youngsters into the ring because the handler got stuck in traffic on the way to the show.
After the class, the judge came up to me and said, "beautiful horse, but you were terrible!":)
I didn't know what I did that was so bad, ( I didn't fall down!) and the horse won his class, but I am sure the judge was right!

A Fine Romance showed quite a bit on the line, starting at the end of his two year old year and into the stallion classes. I had a pro handle him, right from the beginning, and while he did a good enough job, I could see that he wasn't the right person for the horse.

I had been watching the line shows carefully, watching the handlers. I switched to probably the best known BNH in Ontario, who told me he had been hoping I'd call him to hold the horse.
As others have said, the best handlers have confidence and experience, both with the horses, and in the ring. If the youngster makes a mistake, he doesn't panic. And he never stops 'showing' the horse for an instant. The horse liked him, and he liked and respected the horse, and never 'fussed' with him - so they presented a happy, relaxed and positive picture in the ring. This always enabled the judge to get the best possible look at the horse.

Last year, when we planned to go to Devon with a youngster, I called one of the top handlers in the US, (thank you VB) and was thrilled that he took her into the ring. I could be confident that he would do the best possible job with her.
The next time I go south with some youngsters, I hope to do exactly the same.

Still,Pwynn, I wouldn't discourage you from doing it yourself. Give it a try! You never know you might be the first woman BNH! ;)

[pwynnnorman]

Fred, my problem is that I don't want to do all that work! I'd much prefer to send horses to someone, rather than do it myself. That's why I'm asking this stuff (and the season is approaching, too, and there was another thread on the subject, so I also just thought it a timely subject).

So anyway, some folks started to answer my original question, but then when I probed further, up went the defenses. Why can't you relax and just TALK? Here's what I wrote in my first post

So...there are goods and bads everywhere. What exactly do the good ones do?


And below is what I put in a second one-remember? I said straight out "what...should I look for in his or her techniques" (for whoever suggested I go out and watch, which I do). See:

So, how 'bout it? Can we cut to the chase and get some solid stuff here? If I were to consider a BNT handler, what, besides his/her NAME (sigh), should I look for in his or her techniques, [emphasis added] policies, what he/she SAYS in response to my inquiry...or whatever? ... Please convince me it's more than just the name? I want to be convinced because by being convinced I can also become more educated. [emphasis was original] OK? I really hope you can understand what I mean and my motivations.

Anyway, thanks for trying, Fred. I probably spend too much time in the open fields of dressage and eventing land. Just can't rein it in properly over here!

[Janet]

Now that I am an amateur, I still show my own, but only in sport horse classes, at this point. However, as an experiment, I hired a pro to show my guys a couple of years back, and his scores with the same horses, were lower. I do not attribute this to anything other than the fact that I have a longer, deeper connection with these horses. But I mention it because those of you who are scared off by the pros, and don't end up showing your own, should give it a shot! :yes:

I had the same experience with the FEH last year. I showed my 2 yo myself at Waredaca, but I had a major work conflict for the final (mid week), so I hired a pro. One of the two judges at the final was the same as the judge at Waredaca, and Chief got a couple of points lower score with the pro handler than with me.

[SilverBalls]

I probably spend too much time in the open fields of dressage and eventing land. Just can't rein it in properly over here!

If I was a drinking man... I'd drink to that! :yes:

Hunter Breeding is so much fun and very rewarding. I would love to stand my own, but I am a terrible influence on youngsters, and I have no patience whatsoever!

[Leigh]

From looking at videos and photos and reading about Hunter Breeding classes on here it does sound political to me :(
I do think it is a shame that people are handing their horses over to BN handlers at the shows instead of showing themselves.
If you have handled your horse correctly and watched enough Hunter breeding classes to know what is required..be brave and show him/her yourself.
If you enter the ring with confidence and correctly show your horse to his/her best then they should get the placings they deserve.
They way I see it is that the BN handlers started out as newbies once and with practice and confidence got the judges attention.
So if your horse is good enough and you've done your homework and you enter the ring with confidence..after several shows those BN handlers will look at you and your horse as the competition in the class ;)
I breed, produce and show my own horses in the UK and certainly wouldn't want a pro to take the credit for showing my horses :)

[Fairview Horse Center]

Learning to take a good photo can help to learn how to stand the horse up to show him at his best. There are little things you can also do like adjusting the braids, or ruffing up or trimming close the hair in places to change the appearance slightly, but you absolutely have to be really good at conformation evaluation, so start there. Some horses move more huntery when slow, others when moved out a bit more have less break in the knee.

[Irish Ei's]

Pwynn, someone's gotta put in the time....
Do it yourself or send them out....
Braiding, standing, paying attention, relaxed and confident and unafraid.
Sparkling like the Queen herself were judging

Which means standing still for the farrier or the clippers or the braider
Sane and safe on the trailer, going to different places...
The timid ones need confidence
The brash ones need lunging or feed adjustments or work of some kind....
Manners, manners, manners!!!
And only then can you even think about a Show....

[vanheimrhorses]

i showed hunter breeding mostly ponies on the line in the 80's and what handlers do is train the horse in halter just like any breed, to stand up for the judge and show off, to trot brilliant in hand, then they condition them daily with grooming, longing, etc, use a treadmill to build muscle if they have one, but lots of grooming and good feeding and supplements to make that brilliant shiny coat, it takes a lot of daily work to make an in hand horse learn to show off and stand in perfect pose in the ring, its not as easy as it all looks on show day

[Racetb*Aefvue Farm*Biziz Ltd.]

Exactly Vanh! Producing a horse in top weight, coat condition and muscle tone..that looks through the bridle and floats at the jog is a tall order.:cool:

[pwynnnorman]

Sorry, got busy for a bit.


Exactly Vanh! Producing a horse in top weight, coat condition and muscle tone..that looks through the bridle and floats at the jog is a tall order.


Is it? Most show horses have all that -- and the jog is hardly in hunters what it is in sporthorses, nor is it judged that way (apparently -- I say that based on a discussion we had a while back about the weight of the jog in the placings). And when I think about pony yearlings and two-year-olds...but again, maybe it is DIFFERENT in the pony division. As I said, I haven't really watched the HORSE divisions much at all. I do (and I HATE putting it this way, but, geez, these are my observations--what else am I supposed to say...or just NOT say it??? But that doesn't lead to discussion that leads to enlightenment, not for me or anyone else...sigh)...I do notice a lot of BAD trots and even no trots. See why I question comments like "floats at the jog" that make this seem -- to me -- more than it is?

This is what I mean: reality. I want to KNOW about reality, NOT "ideality," if you will. Folks, I haven't been seeking criticism. I've been seeking FRANKNESS. Ponies in the breeding division often do not trot out well at all. They seem to be trotting quite conservatively, in fact. That's technique and policy, it seems to be -- but not knowing... I look and what I see LOOKS LIKE handlers holding back, jogging almost perfunctorily.

A friend of mine worked hard on getting her yearling to pick up its trot crisply and move on. He was a great mover and she wanted to show that off. But I wonder if that work might have made him sharper than he should have been because he fussed and fretted moving up to the head of the line just before he jogged. Now, should she spend upteen amounts of money trucking to shows to learn the answer that when there are forums where one can ask? Is the answer to that question, "yes, if you are into hunters, but no, if you are into sporthorses"? Let it not be.

Now I have seen some really RUN with their ponies (but I don't recall a "big" winner do so--by big I mean Devon and Upperville--since that's where I've made a point of going and studying--I admit I don't pay as much attention at other shows), but others practically stroll. And I still haven't heard an answer to one question (unless I missed it) I'd really, really like to know about: DOES it matter if you are still "futsing" with how the pony is standing while the judge is judging is? IS that a wise technique, a bad technique or it just doesn't matter? Does someone here have an interesting opinion on that?

And what about HAVING to send a horse out? The way some are posting, it sounds like you HAVE to do that--and yet that isn't reality, as far as I can tell about the stats on the entries you see at routine shows (indeed, routine where there are often fewer than half a dozen entries, too!). Most of the entries handled by pros, I suspect, are not sent out to them for months beforehand. But then, the results may illustrate that that's why most entries don't beat the pros, too! But is it because the ponies are lesser ponies, because the pros prep better, or because of who is handling the reins? How much prep for HB is needed beyond the same prep (physical prep, not mental) for regular showing, after all. DO some pros put ponies on treadmills??? DO pro barns work on muscle tone in, say, ponies the way I know the stock horse world most certainly does in everything from weanlings to stallions? DOES that mean the owner/handler should longe or pony or hand-walk-on-hills? Will that make a difference or should the time be better spent getting a second job to pay for a pro to handle the reins regardless...

Seriously, though...I can see how such things could really help, OF COURSE, but my question is HOW MANY DO THAT? Do YOU? I'm asking you for your experience (those of you who know) because it's helpful. Do the BNT handlers have folks at home exercising pony yearlings?

And another thought (after a few days of having to let this thread lie--when I get into something like this, it really takes up my time online when I'm supposed to be doing other things--like teaching my classes--so when I have to grade papers or something with a deadline, I avoid the threads I'm really "into" like this one). Anyway, think of it this way, if you can campaign a horse under saddle via catch riders, why does this division "require" (and that's in quotation marks as a not-necessarily-ideal word choice) you to send the horse out? DOES IT require? Does anyone here (and I've already noted a few who do) prep and school at home and maybe use "practice handlers" so that the baby can get used to behaving and obeying no matter who is at its head? For someone in Florida considering (not really--not this year; I'm jsut using this as an example) sending a horse to Devon, would THAT make sense (as well as, of course, taking the baby to local shows for experience, too)? Have you done it this way successfully (and I do mean "success" as a decent ribbon, not just a well-behaved entry)?

Again, it's like the dentist thing, which I suspect I'm not getting across well. Good horsemanship is good horsemanship. I guess my overall philosophy about all of this is that there should be no "mystery" to it, ever. "Mystery" isn't good horsemanship. Sure, some are more talented than others, and there's an "old guard" who grew up around horses in a way that makes them practically able to read their minds (but there's also a new guard that can, too), but overall, technique and talent aren't mystical matters (I'm thinking back now to the initial responses to this thread) -- I most certainly don't see the individuals out there constantly cleaning up as extremely talented "phenotypes", for example :winkgrin:. But experienced, sure -- and there's great value in that, no doubt.

But not exclusive value. I resist the "only a dentist can tell if my horse has a tooth problem" reasoning for the same reason I want(ed) to have a practical discussion about what handlers do. The lovely lady dentist I chose came out and gave me a fascinating lecture on a number of teeth issues. She didn't do it to show off. She did it to educate me so I could make better decisions about my horses (and, yes, about who handles them--she talked a lot about what to look out for in dentists, emphasizing that there are indeed--as I suspected and expressed in that particular thread a while back--plenty out there willing to rake in the money for unnecessary procedures.

I've spent a lot of time expressing ideas in this dreadfully long post, which will probably kill the thread entirely, but that's ok: I need to express them--because this is reasoning I'm talking about. Some of you folks like to think I post for some nefarious reasons, when I post because in order to reason-- I'm not a guesser or a do-it-on-faith or even a just-do-it type. Critique is as valuable to the learning process as praise, as I tell my students. If there is no wrong, there is no need for defense. If there is wrong, give it air and learn from it. Or, if you are just not into articulating your experience, that's fine, too, but, as I stated before, in other realms here online, articulating techniques and critiquing is the norm and much appreciated.

Lordy, what a ramble. But I'm not going to shorten it. Don't care. Had to let it out. But, seeeee why I had to avoid this thread for a bit? I signed onto one of my classes an hour ago and still haven't checked for messages.

[Janet]

Quote:
Exactly Vanh! Producing a horse in top weight, coat condition and muscle tone..that looks through the bridle and floats at the jog is a tall order.
Is it? Most show horses have all that -- and the jog is hardly in hunters what it is in sporthorses, nor is it judged that way (apparently -- I say that based on a discussion we had a while back about the weight of the jog in the placings). And when I think about pony yearlings and two-year-olds...but again, maybe it is DIFFERENT in the pony division. As I said, I haven't really watched the HORSE divisions much at all.

The Hunter expectation of "floats at the trot" is different from the Dresssage Sport Horse expectation of "floats at the trot". The Hunter version of "floats at the trot" focuses on being "light over the ground", not "big suspension".

In terms of the importance of the jog in in Hunter breeding- when I showed Music on the line as a 2 yo at Upperville (me handling her- my first time showing on the line, so it overcame the expectaions associuated with an unknown handler), she moved up from 5th to 3rd after the jog.

[ASB Stars]

The Hunter expectation of "floats at the trot" is different from the Dresssage Sport Horse expectation of "floats at the trot". The Hunter version of "floats at the trot" focuses on being "light over the ground", not "big suspension".

In terms of the importance of the jog in in Hunter breeding- when I showed Music on the line as a 2 yo at Upperville (me handling her- my first time showing on the line, so it overcame the expectaions associuated with an unknown handler), she moved up from 5th to 3rd after the jog.

Yes, but Music always was a loffy mover! :yes:

[crystalacresponies]

Hi Pwynn,
Thought I'd chime in on this interesting topic. I have never sent one of my ponies out to a handler for the prep work until this year. You can do it yourself. Some people do all the things you are talking about with the special programs, lunging, exercising, etc. I have never done any of that and I don't think you have to. I feed them well, turn them out so they get plenty of exercise, practice jogging & wearing the bridle, clip them, rub on them, braid them, and then hand them off at the horse show to the handler. I have done fine this way at Devon, and have won the broodmare, foal, yearling, produce & get classes. I sent one out this year simply because I don't have the time to spend because I am off at hunter shows every weekend & have a real job during the week. I do believe in using a handler. They simply do a better job showing them than I would. Also, when they see an unfamiliar face they act a bit wary & pay attention. I really believe some of the handlers are truly amazing at what they do. They deserve every penny they get for the outstanding way they present their animals.

[Janet]

A friend of mine worked hard on getting her yearling to pick up its trot crisply and move on. He was a great mover and she wanted to show that off. But I wonder if that work might have made him sharper than he should have been because he fussed and fretted moving up to the head of the line just before he jogged. Now, should she spend upteen amounts of money trucking to shows to learn the answer that when there are forums where one can ask? Is the answer to that question, "yes, if you are into hunters, but no, if you are into sporthorses"? Let it not be.
I haven't seen any attempt to keep it secret. No need to "spend money on going to lots of shows".

The time I took Music to Upperville (and she moved up on the jog, so it must have been the right kind) was my first time ever at a Hunter Breeding show. I discussed what kind of trot was needed at the jog with a couple of experienced horsewomen (who were NOT HB specialists). And practiced it at home.

Of course, having some idea of what kind of trot pins in the under saddle class is a pretty good start.

[VirginiaBred]

Some BNH have the animals they show live with them. Some don't. Some jog just above the walk because at that moment, they realize they have TNT in the bridle, and if they go any faster, it may take off across the ring. Some fuss with their animal because of behavior reasons. Some run with their animal because it really doesn't move that well unless it's really moving out. All of these are relative to what the animal is doing that second.

Treadmills are totally unnecessary, and very few in hand ponies I know have ever been on one. Good pasture turnout, conditioning and handling does it every time.

I've seen the best handlers not jog one out, or fuss with them and I've stood at the sideline thinking to myself, "What are they doing???" Then after the class I find out and completely understand. What we see from the sidelines may not be the whole story.

[fish]

Don't have a lot of time, Wynn, but want to (quickly) get back to the fact that IMO all these issues come back to the importance of individual needs, skills, compatibilities, etc., and the importance of weighing as many factors as possible when making decisions. Just as there are plenty of dentists (and vets, and trainers, and M.D.'s, etc., etc.) who will prescribe unnecessary procedures in order to make more $, there are also many who will insist that necessary procedures are NOT necessary because they, personally, lack the skills, patience, and/or equipment necessary to perform them and don't want to lose any business to competitors better qualified in areas they wish to practice. Obviously, neither is optimal, and we have to be careful to do plenty of research and keep an open mind, resisting the always powerful temptation to go with those who do the best job of telling us what we prefer to hear. E.g. One of my horses spend several painful months with the fragments from a broken tooth inflaming her gums because my vet told me they wouldn't bother her. IMO, I deserve to have one big black and blue butt from kicking myself over that one :(

For me, horsemanship very often lies in recognizing and respecting both the extents and the limits of numerous individuals' abilities, including my own.

[Mel0309]

Janet,

I think PWynn maybe was refering to Irish E's saying "Don't be cheap..Just shut up and Go do your own homework. "

I don't see PWynn's question as any different than any other question on these boards. It seems like when others ask a question many people pipe up and give their opinions. The only opinion I am hearing is hire a pro to do it for you.

[Janet]

Janet,

I think PWynn maybe was refering to Irish E's saying "Don't be cheap..Just shut up and Go do your own homework. "

I don't see PWynn's question as any different than any other question on these boards. It seems like when others ask a question many people pipe up and give their opinions. The only opinion I am hearing is hire a pro to do it for you.
Not hearing that from ME.

[VirginiaBred]

Not hearing that from ME.

Me neither. I've done it both ways, so my opinions reflect that.

[fish]

Not hearing that from ME.

That's not what I've said either-- nor what I've heard from many others. It seems to me that the prevailing opinion here is "it depends." Years ago I went to a clinic on showing sport horses in hand in which the clinician clearly stated, based on what was shown by one of the demonstration horses, that some animals do present better with their owners than with even top notch professionals. If you decide that's the case with one of your horses, no one is saying to hire a professional instead of doing it yourself just as no one would recommend you hire a professional rider if your horse goes best u/s for you.

[Mel0309]

But then again no one (except maybe TrueColors) has answered why the pro's win and what do they do to prepare and present the horse better than your average ammy.

This was the OP's original question. "But when it comes to "real" handlers, specifically in hunters, what are the techniques that make them such a requisite? "

And really the only answer I've seem to have gotton (again besides TrueColors) is that is it because they are pro's and that is not really an answer (to me anyway).

[DuffyAgain]

I'll give part of the question a crack. :winkgrin:

Let's equate HB to hunter o/f.

Ms. Ammie is a good ammie and finds the jumps well and is accurate. Horse jumps nicely with her and is a happy camper.

Ms. Ammie hires Ms. Pro to show her nice horse in an open division. The horse rocks back better, jumps rounder, etc. with Ms. Pro.

To those on the sidelines, it's difficult to see WHY the horse jumps better with Ms. Pro. The distances are identical. But, Ms. Pro might be getting the horse a tad lighter in front of the jump, or holding horse off, or doing any of a million things a little differently in order to get a better jump out of horse.

Sometimes the same happens in HB. Pro handler may be better at evaluating youngun's shortcomings AND hiding them better. Ami handler might know the same, but not as experienced at hiding them when it counts. I may know my horse/pony has a shortish neck or a longish back and know to try to get him to stretch out his neck or stand with his legs a bit closer. But, to get and KEEP said horse in the correct position FOR that horse takes a lot of experience, (also without looking like that's what I'm doing! :winkgrin:).

I used to show ponies in hand back in the 70's and had a blast. I had great mentors and sometimes I beat them. They were more than gracious about it - even proud of their "student". :)

Gee - none of that probably makes any sense - but what the heck! :lol::D

[TrueColours]

Now - lets be honest here as well ... ;)

*I* as an "Amateur Handler" did ALL of my own prep work on my Faux Finish mare and will continue to do so with all of my youngsters. I knew what my objectives were, I knew how to get her coat and weight in top condition, I knew how to "school" her and "train" her, I knew what I needed to do 5-6 months in advance to make sure she was 100% ready for a specific series of shows, so at the one and only show that *I* handled her at as a yearling, she won her class and was Junior Champion as well.

When I sent her to Ray Francis as a 2 year old in May she arrived on a Monday evening and went to her first show on a Wednesday, won her class and was Best Young Horse against the leading USEF horse at the time - Foxy's Remember When and then continued to do very well with Ray handling her for the remainder of the time she was with him that year. She didnt learn anything in one day via osmosis - *I* did all of the work leading up to that win, with her, allowing her to be the best horse that day and in superb condition from the moment she stepped off the trailer and Ray handling her certainly solidified and legitimized her position.

And then I made the decision to take her myself to the Merrill Lynch Show in OH when she got home, handled her myself and she again won her class and was BYH at that show as well

Yes - *I* and anyone else can easily prepare and school and get these youngsters ready at home *if* you 100% know what you are trying to accomplish - from weight, to coat to actual handling and ring presence. I truly dont believe that you 100% need a "pro" to do any of that for you, but you have to know the game and know how to PLAY the game and be willing to play at that level if you want to be successful in the ring and that means the youngster must be in peak condition - not fat and not thin - and know their job without being dull and overschooled and/or bored out of their trees ...

I also know the game well enough to know that *I* know what I am doing in the ring 100% to absolutely handle her to the best of her ability, but politically, I am not the best choice to be handling her against the "name" handlers at the bigger shows. That is the way life goes, you either choose to accept it or not and if you dont, you may well have the best horse in the ring, but you wont necessarily win the class ...

Also - with me being up here in Canada I have the choice of hitting a few shows a month 6-10 hours away, each way, and me handling the youngster myself and both of us being exhausted at the end of the day, or sending her to someone that I like and respect, who shares my goals and outlook and who is smack in the heart of "Hunter Breeding" country and can hit these shows in 45 minutes to a few hours and we can do as few or as many as we would like to do and the horse still leads a normal life at the end of the day and doesnt live on a trailer ...

Life certainly does suck at times, but if you dont like it, get into jumpers instead where personal opinions, favorites and biases dont come into play ;)

so PWynn - yes - 100% you can prep and show your youngsters yourself and you will win some as you go along and hopefully in 3 to 5 to 7 years down the road, you will become established as a "BNH" who is a known force to be reckoned with each time you set foot in the ring, but along the way, will you view those 1-7 years of lost wins and lost opportunities as "paying your dues" and chalk it up to that, or will your breeding program suffer as a result as people know that the PWynn bred youngsters never won much, were always in the middle of the pack or at the bottom, so they really cant be that nice after all??? Or - do you pay a BNH now to show your youngsters, get the wins that they deserve over the next 7 years and have those results reflect positively on what you are producing?

Its all in how you view and choose to play, the political game ... ;)

[EquusMagnificus]

Then perhaps one should do a bit of both?

That is, handle your own good youngsters and send your stellar ones to a BNH? That would allow your to train yourself and learn along the way without compromising your whole breeding program's image...

I know nothing about Hunter Breeding though. :winkgrin: I am just reflecting on a strictly business decision...

[TrueColours]

Then perhaps one should do a bit of both?

That is, handle your own good youngsters and send your stellar ones to a BNH? That would allow your to train yourself and learn along the way without compromising your whole breeding program's image...

I know nothing about Hunter Breeding though. I am just reflecting on a strictly business decision...


From a strictly business perspective, you do whatever you can to put your business in the best possible light and if that means hiring a BNH even when you know you can do equally as good a job, so be it. That is what gets done ...

That goes for the good ones AND the stellar ones as well ... ;)

I will continue to prep and show my own youngsters locally here in Canada and at the driveable distance US shows as well. Then when I know the kinks have been ironed out, and they are 100% ready to go and kick butt at the big shows and do MY program the most good, off they go to Jill and she and I both know from the minute they step foot off the trailer they will step into the ring with confidence and show to the best of their ability

So I think in this way the breeders can have the gratification and fun of handling and showing their youngsters up to a certain point and then know when they hand them over to a BNH, THEY have put those necessary and critical beginning miles on them and they are ready to move forward from that point on ... :)

[Ravencrest_Camp]

Now - lets be honest here as well ... ;)

so PWynn - yes - 100% you can prep and show your youngsters yourself and you will win some as you go along and hopefully in 3 to 5 to 7 years down the road, you will become established as a "BNH" who is a known force to be reckoned with each time you set foot in the ring, but along the way, will you view those 1-7 years of lost wins and lost opportunities as "paying your dues" and chalk it up to that, or will your breeding program suffer as a result as people know that the PWynn bred youngsters never won much, were always in the middle of the pack or at the bottom, so they really cant be that nice after all??? Or - do you pay a BNH now to show your youngsters, get the wins that they deserve over the next 7 years and have those results reflect positively on what you are producing?

Its all in how you view and choose to play, the political game ... ;)

I can certainly understand "the game" and why someone would choose to play it. It does make sense from a business standpoint.

But my question is this, if it is widely known that "the game" is political and that the best horse doesn't win, but rather the best horse with the most politically connected handler, why are the results valid?
Why does a breeding program suffer if the resulting horses are in the middle of the pack solely due to who is handling them? Can't knowledgable horse people see that a program is producing good or great horses?

I am asking any of the breeders, not just TC. Though she has been the most forthcoming with her answers.

[VirginiaBred]

But my question is this, if it is widely known that "the game" is political and that the best horse doesn't win, but rather the best horse with the most politically connected handler, why are the results valid?
Why does a breeding program suffer if the resulting horses are in the middle of the pack solely due to who is handling them? Can't knowledgable horse people see that a program is producing good or great horses?

I am asking any of the breeders, not just TC. Though she has been the most forthcoming with her answers.

The politics are so obvious at some shows it makes you sick. It's happened to everyone showing unfortunately. The politics lie with the judge, not the handler. Relationships of any kind really enter in to the pinning of a class, unfortunately (selling, showing, referrals, you name it).

Why are the results valid??? Because we made the decision to enter the class. Everyone of us takes that gamble every time we enter one of our animals. I honestly don't think a breeding program suffers from blatant politics. A good pony/horse can be seen by an educated eye, and doesn't suffer the consequences.

[pwynnnorman]

I agree with you, VABred, that a breeding business doesn't suffer from the losses...but the thing is, they don't GAIN either--and in the strictest sense of validity, that means the results aren't valid. Take, for example, comparisons that might arise, say, in the stallion issues where breeders' ads are side by side (so content, including brags, can be compared). Who seems like the more established, reliable, legitmate breeder: the one with list of wins or the one with the equally nice babies but no wins? Of course, the fact is that the exact same "lack of validity" is impacted by location. You're right that these are handicaps that are often "built into" the game itself.

Personally, however, I don't like how powerless breeders are (and this sense of powerlessness is also way I wouldn't send any of my guys to inspections--I prefer to have at least some control over their fates!) Anyway, this is why I really think that shows shouldn't choose or pay the judges; the organization that recognizes the shows should. I think a lot of this kind of thing would go away if judge selection was independent of show management.

[VirginiaBred]

Anyway, this is why I really think that shows shouldn't choose or pay the judges; the organization that recognizes the shows should. I think a lot of this kind of thing would go away if judge selection was independent of show management.

Unfortunately, there are some organizations that have members that can be corrupted easily enough when it comes to judge selection, so I don't think it stops there.

[LivviesMom]

I decided to handle my filly myself. I had NO IDEA what I was doing. I contacted a local Handler who had success and came recommended to me. She came out and taught us the basics. We did not do overly well, but I was doing it solely for experiance as a yearling.
As a two year old I wanted to do better. I had another mini clinic and took preparation more seriously. In fairness.. she was very growthy the entire show season, but towards the end she filled out and did well placing 4th out of 9 horses before the Royal. I was happy. That was the show it clicked for her and I. I have found she does better under American Judges for some reason.
I prepped her for the Royal, but I knew I would be way too nervous and hired a handler. This year I'm ready to do it myself in the bigger classes. I watched, asked questions and learned a ton along the way.
True Colours was quite helpful to me as well.. picked her brain a few times!

As an example.. here is me showing my filly... ( I sucked!! lol)
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2222185330081299973HLgkIk shes a yearling here..I've done a crappy job standing her up..

This is a HORRIBLE picture.. just to illustrate my crappy conditioning.. she looks awkward and skinny.. she wasn't but this is how awkward she was..should have stayed home!
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2046994050081299973WcSYXr

This is her 2 year old year at the Royal. TB Class. With the Pro Handler ( little blurry)
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2055088750081299973MoGQKx

Again.. much more conditioning and prep.. pays off..
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2624867630081299973RfSxwj

I was speaking to the trainer I am sending her to for undersaddle work ( she will also be doing some line class work with her for me) and we were discussing the lack of handlers.. I think more people really need to get involved, but its tough when you have to go up against a pro handler. I wish there were more novice handler classes to encourage people to get more involved..
I think my filly was last in every class her yearling year.. I didn't care. She did better in her two year old year and I am looking forward to an even better three year old year! I have enjoyed every minute handling her.

[Ravencrest_Camp]

I agree with you, VABred, that a breeding business doesn't suffer from the losses...but the thing is, they don't GAIN either--and in the strictest sense of validity, that means the results aren't valid. Take, for example, comparisons that might arise, say, in the stallion issues where breeders' ads are side by side (so content, including brags, can be compared). Who seems like the more established, reliable, legitmate breeder: the one with list of wins or the one with the equally nice babies but no wins? Of course, the fact is that the exact same "lack of validity" is impacted by location. You're right that these are handicaps that are often "built into" the game itself.

Personally, however, I don't like how powerless breeders are (and this sense of powerlessness is also way I wouldn't send any of my guys to inspections--I prefer to have at least some control over their fates!) Anyway, this is why I really think that shows shouldn't choose or pay the judges; the organization that recognizes the shows should. I think a lot of this kind of thing would go away if judge selection was independent of show management.

That is what I meant by my question on the validity of the results. If you get a first place ribbon, but your didn't have the best horse in the class, is that ribbon valid? Do you as a breeder get satisfaction from it? My answer would be no.

Pwynnorman, I don't think the problem of politics would be solved by the organizations hiring the judges. Here is my conspiracy theory for the day. And since I have no involvement with Hunter Breeding it is pure speculation. I think the politics come into play because the judges know and are collegues of the handlers, not because of who pays the judges. So it's a sort of "old boys/girls club"

[TrueColours]

That is what I meant by my question on the validity of the results. If you get a first place ribbon, but your didn't have the best horse in the class, is that ribbon valid? Do you as a breeder get satisfaction from it? My answer would be no.


Well - I guess playing Devil's Advocate here a bit ... If you have the best horse in the class and end up 2nd or 4th due to politics, how valid would THAT riboon be as well???

When my mare (buckskin) got the comment from a judge as she went by "Thoroughbreds shouldnt come in that colour" you know something, the writing is on the wall ... we are NOT going to do well in that class ...

[VirginiaBred]

Well - I guess playing Devil's Advocate here a bit ... If you have the best horse in the class and end up 2nd or 4th due to politics, how valid would THAT riboon be as well???

When my mare (buckskin) got the comment from a judge as she went by "Thoroughbreds shouldnt come in that colour" you know something, the writing is on the wall ... we are NOT going to do well in that class ...

Having the best and ending up not at the front of the line happens more often than you think. Frequently, when a BNH holds something it wins, whether it should or not. However on the flip side, I've seen the BNH with the (obvious) winner not at the top.

It's one persons opinion on that day. Right or wrong.

[goodpony]

---the last time we participated in Hunter breeding the class politics were absolutely outrageous. The announcer proceeded to Welcome the usual competitors on a first name basis....you could have easily lined them up with your eyes closed just from the introductions. I know politics exist in nearly every discipline at some level....but WOW! I don't think I've ever laughed so hard.

[TrueColours]

Having the best and ending up not at the front of the line happens more often than you think. Frequently, when a BNH holds something it wins, whether it should or not. However on the flip side, I've seen the BNH with the (obvious) winner not at the top.

It's one persons opinion on that day. Right or wrong.


Randee - I agree 100% ... :)

Any some judges prefer loftier movers, some flatter movers, some heavier builds and some the finer ones ... and all of that I can accept 100% with no problem whatsoever

Its just when its blatantly OBVIOUSLY that it grates on you the wrong way ... :rolleyes:

And as far as how to circumvent this and "fix" the problem - I dont have a clue ... the "Old Boy's Network" will always be alive and well and I dont have any idea who you would bring in that would be knowledgeable, fair AND impartial, to every single show out there

Bias is a fact of life in HB and I would say its also fully alive and well in the hunter ring as well. Short of switching to the jumper ring what can you do? :confused:

[Janet]

---the last time we participated in Hunter breeding the class politics were absolutely outrageous. The announcer proceeded to Welcome the usual competitors on a first name basis....you could have easily lined them up with your eyes closed just from the introductions. I know politics exist in nearly every discipline at some level....but WOW! I don't think I've ever laughed so hard. Unless the announcer is whispering in the judge's ear, I don't see that it matters how chummy the announcers are with the handlers.

[goodpony]

I have been to a LOT of In Hand shows....I have never seen anything as blatantly obivious or political....NEVER. No need to whisper it was going out over the loudspeakers.

[pwynnnorman]

The idea of having judges paid by the organization rather than the show is based on the assumption that selection would be based upon a deeper pool of judges than currently, thus lessening the likelihood that past relationships would exist between judge and competitor--and patterns of bias would be reduced because patterns of judge selection would be eliminated. (This isn't my idea, BTW.)

The way I've heard it put is that show management hires the judges trainers (and other influentials) like because shows need trainers to bring their clients/horses in (profitable) droves. An association more-or-less randomly selecting from a deep pool of qualified judges would break that link between judge selection and trainer/BNT preference--or so the theory goes.

[lauriep]

I think it much more true that these shows look for judges who are within a few hours' drive so that they can save money on these people, rather than pay for plane tickets from across the country. Not always, but a lot. Some shows bring in a separate judge for HB, some use one of the hunter judges, but I am afraid that saving $$ is the biggest motivator, and having an association (what association, the USEF?) choose wouldn't make the show happy if they still had to pay to transport that judge.

[TrueColours]

I have always been curious - why dont ALL of the shows simply use the hunter judge as the Hunter Breeding judge as well?

I would far rather have my youngster judged by someone that is experienced in judging hunters so they can stand there and analyze that youngster with the view of how he/she would perform and stack up as a hunter in later years as that IS the ultimate goal of all of the HB exhibitors - to have something that will then excel as a hunter down the road!

I am sure that most/all of the hunter judges have a pretty darned good idea of what the conformation and movement on yearling, two and three year olds should look like ideally to accomplish the goal of being a nice hunter in later years so why not save money and broaden the pool of available judges in this manner?

[Ravencrest_Camp]

I have always been curious - why dont ALL of the shows simply use the hunter judge as the Hunter Breeding judge as well?

I would far rather have my youngster judged by someone that is experienced in judging hunters so they can stand there and analyze that youngster with the view of how he/she would perform and stack up as a hunter in later years as that IS the ultimate goal of all of the HB exhibitors - to have something that will then excel as a hunter down the road!

I am sure that most/all of the hunter judges have a pretty darned good idea of what the conformation and movement on yearling, two and three year olds should look like ideally to accomplish the goal of being a nice hunter in later years so why not save money and broaden the pool of available judges in this manner?

That brings up an interesting point. Is there a corelation between how well a horse does in the Hunter Breeding classes and later success in the Hunter ring?

[ASB Stars]

This isn't brain surgery, and there is no magic to it. Anyone can learn to prepare, stand up, and jog an in hand horse- if they really want to take the time to learn to do it.

The issue is politics- and it doesn't matter what arena you are in. The hunter judges are going to look after each other- who did what deal last year, or might later in the year- and on and on. You want incestuous judging? Try the ASB world!

The worst situation that I was ever directy a part of included a BNT, who died some years back of a dreadful disease. He had called me one winter, and asked me if I knew where there was a really fancy coming yearling colt he could buy to show. It happened that I did. He looked at the colt, and made an offer, which was not accepted. He then called to tell me that the colt wasn't worth the money, and was not going to be able to be ready to show, anyway. I told him fine, as I was going to pick the colt up, and show him myself.

I brought him home, put him under lights, stuck him on three meals a day, and put a quarterhorse congress blanket and hood on him. He won at the first shows, and even this guy walked up and wanted to know how I got hm ready. Please see the first paragraph of this post- this is NOT rocket science.

Four shows later, he walks up to me, and asks if the colt is for sale. I said yes, and quoted him a price. He told me the colt was STILL not worth the money, and walked behind him and looked at his back end. He announced that the colt had a curb. The colt had a cowlick RIGHT where a curb would be, but no boney mass, which I let him feel. "Nope," says the BNT, " he has a CURB!"

I took the colt into the ring, and was hanging out, when I looked over to see BNT, on the outside of the ring, and the judge, leaning back against the rail, talking, and looking right at my colt. He ended up fifth. I took him home, and didn't bother showing him again. The BNT called, and wanted to know if I'd take his offer now. Pretty blatant, huh?

Here is a bad picture of the colt:
http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t18/bryndewinesfarm/?action=view&current=BringWampum.jpg


So, the moral of the story? You can have the best, nicest colt inthe ring, and politics can STILL get you. If you can't run with the big dogs, you might as well stay under the porch!

[Janet]

I am sure that most/all of the hunter judges have a pretty darned good idea of what the conformation and movement on yearling, two and three year olds should look like ideally to accomplish the goal of being a nice hunter in later years so why not save money and broaden the pool of available judges in this manner?
What makes you think that? Why would being qualified to judge hunter performance give you any expertise in yearlings?

[TrueColours]

That brings up an interesting point. Is there a corelation between how well a horse does in the Hunter Breeding classes and later success in the Hunter ring?


The February 2008 issue of In Stride (USHJA) had an article on Hunter Breeding and it mentioned the youngsters that did very very well showing in their early years in the HB classes, and then went on to stellar performance careers as well

Its funny - my filly always had her best results showing under judges like Betty Oare, Bucky Reynolds, Brian Lenehan, Linda Andrusani, Ray Francis, etc and her not so good results showing under judges where I had to say "Who??? WHO judged the classes???"

And thats just fine with me. I'd rather she DID do well with that calibre of judge as they are going to be the ones judging her when it really matters - when she is showing under saddle and over fences ... :)

What makes you think that? Why would being qualified to judge hunter performance give you any expertise in yearlings?


Well - I am assuming that the judges judging the hunter classes also judge the conformation division as well - am I correct?
And I am also pretty certain that the attributes that make that yearling a well balanced, correct youngster with excellent movement SHOULD translate to a good performance career down the road.

I would far rather have a judge the calibre of the above mentioned ones look at my youngster as a yearling, two and three year old and give me their opinion, via their placings in the class, as to its future suitability as a hunter in the future, then someone who has never judged a hunter round and simply specializes in judging HB and thats it. Since most judges of the above calibre were/are breeders, did/still show in the hunter ring, were/still do train hunters, I would attach far more credibility and value to their results and pinnings than someone who does HB classes and that is all ...

[ASB Stars]

In perfect world, the in hand winners would go on to be fabulous athletes. I don't know that this is always the case, by any means. I do think that MORE good in hand horses are doing well today, than from years past.

Many years ago, it was generally acknowledged that the conformation division was the provence of the pretty horses, who really didn't jump very well. Perhaps, because the warmbloods are now dominant, and they come from more carefully screened stock, the acceptably pretty athletes in those rings now also jerk their knees.

Many years ago, Stocking Stuffer was the ONLY horse anyone knew who had the ability, and the pretty, to do both. He was a gorgeous TB- and an anomaly for his time.

[pwynnnorman]

Its funny - my filly always had her best results showing under judges like Betty Oare, Bucky Reynolds, Brian Lenehan, Linda Andrusani, Ray Francis, etc and her not so good results showing under judges where I had to say "Who??? WHO judged the classes???" ..

I have to admit, TC, that while those names are impressive, judging horses (in any discipline) is not rocket science either. We have a tendency to treat it like it is, but it ain't. The judges aren't genuises. There's no reason why other people can't become or can't be excellent judges--in ANY horse sport.

[lauriep]

I have to admit, TC, that while those names are impressive, judging horses (in any discipline) is not rocket science either. We have a tendency to treat it like it is, but it ain't. The judges aren't genuises. There's no reason why other people can't become or can't be excellent judges--in ANY horse sport.

Yes, there is, and it is $$ and time to become a judge. The USEF makes it VERY expensive to do this, and also requires a significant amount of time. The time away from your business makes the $$ factor even higher.

I've been in this business a VERY long time, and now and back then, there are only a handful of judges who I think do a good job AND judge what is in front of them, not WHO is in front of them. It was the same 30 years ago, only there were more horsemen around back then. The problem is that the business is SO incestuous, that many of the judges are worried about pissing someone off and losing future business from them (and I don't necessarily think it is about #s of horses showing to them, but future sales/clients).

I have heard hunter judges complain about having to do the breeding, too. At Lexington (VA) a few years ago, one of the judges was bemoaning LOUDLY for all to hear, how he/she would SO much rather be watching paint dry (this is a quote) than judging the babies. I've heard, myself, other judges express similar sentiments (just not quite so loudly).

And I don't think that a lot of the hunter judges know enough about the conformation of the young horse (yearlings, especially) and how it translates to the finished product. And if they haven't been involved with the babies, why should they? They are asked to look at adult horses and there IS a huge difference in how a yearling looks and how an adult looks. That is why I've seen butt high babies who are wonderful animals lose to level, inferior animals. Judge didn't understand that that is the way horses grow and it shouldn't be a fault at that age.

[TrueColours]

I have heard hunter judges complain about having to do the breeding, too. At Lexington (VA) a few years ago, one of the judges was bemoaning LOUDLY for all to hear, how he/she would SO much rather be watching paint dry (this is a quote) than judging the babies. I've heard, myself, other judges express similar sentiments (just not quite so loudly).


Well - so much for MY brilliant suggestion then! :lol:

[fish]

I have to admit, TC, that while those names are impressive, judging horses (in any discipline) is not rocket science either. We have a tendency to treat it like it is, but it ain't. The judges aren't genuises. There's no reason why other people can't become or can't be excellent judges--in ANY horse sport.

I'm reminded of an article I read a few years ago written by a brain surgeon about the lengthy travails involved in learning how to do an effective half halt. Apparently he found himself replying to statements that executing a half halt "isn't brain surgery," with "I know. I do brain surgery and this is much more difficult."

I think we tend to forget that rocket scientists, brain surgeons, etc., etc.-- none of them actually need to be "geniuses" to become good at their crafts. What they do need is lots of study under established experts and years of diligent practice during which they continually educate themselves and become more facile at what they do. This is no less true among horsemen, some of whom, I would like to submit, are indeed "geniuses" within their own field. Many years ago, for example, I had the pleasure of spending a day looking at horses with the late (BNH) Delmar Twymann. I think I learned as much or more in that one day than I did in all my years at grad. school at the University of Chicago where many of my profs. were also pretty big names.

When I look at this thread, it strikes me that the very question "what does a BNH really DO?" presumes that it can't be very much in that it implies the expertise involved can be put into a verbal nutshell. Does anyone here have realistic expectations that the jobs of professional trainer, rider, groom, professor, rocket scientist, etc., can and needs to be similarly summed up to explain why the average tinkerer in those fields can't do just as good a job?

[TrueColours]

When I look at this thread, it strikes me that the very question "what does a BNH really DO?" presumes that it can't be very much in that it implies the expertise involved can be put into a verbal nutshell. Does anyone here have realistic expectations that the jobs of professional trainer, rider, groom, professor, rocket scientist, etc., can and needs to be similarly summed up to explain why the average tinkerer in those fields can't do just as good a job?


fish - that probably makes more sense than any other post on this entire thread ...

And its the exact same reason why someone can spend an hour trying to load a horse - unsuccessfully with a great deal of frustration on everyone's part - and then someone else can walk up, take the lead and get it done in a matter or a minute or so. They watch, they see, they gauge a reaction from the horse, they push, they back off - all instantantaneously without even thinking about what they have to do next. They read the body language of the horse and simply do the appropriate next step to get the job done

And yes - I guess handling horses in the ring is very much the same way - you have your basics down pat, and then you push, back off and cajole depending on what you are faced with in the ring

And then at times ya know - the worst absolutely happens, as happened 2 years ago at a VERY large show where it was up over a 100F and it was humid and the bugs were the size of mice landing everywhere on the horse and soaking in them in fly spray had NO effect whatsoever, 2 of the horses in my class were going crazy and finally they both dropped to the ground in a flash and rolled to try and get some relief. The handlers were horrified and one looked like she was ready to burst into the tears ... The judge walked up to them and said "The flies are driving ME crazy as well and I would love to get down on the ground and roll too but it wouldnt look right for the judge to be doing that!" . We all burst out laughing, she allowed them to dust their horses off and get settled back into line and that was that ...

So even with the good handlers who know their business inside and out, stuff just simply happens, and you just move on ... :)

[ASB Stars]

I believe that we want to look at the artistic aspect of working with horses and allow that there is a certain "Je n'ais se quoi pas" to all of it.

The real deal, for me, is that the people who are competitive are those who have a great work ethic- much like their horses. They get out, and do the work, every single day. They feed them right, they rub them right, they practice correctly, and for the right amount of time, and, suddenly, they are successful, and envied.

I believe, too, that the difference between the good riders, drivers, and handlers, and everyone who does not achieve that level, is the foregoing- the work.

The difference between that level, and reaching above, is artistry, and a gift. But if you don't do "the work", chances are no one will ever see that difference.

[VirginiaBred]

I've been in this business a VERY long time, and now and back then, there are only a handful of judges who I think do a good job AND judge what is in front of them, not WHO is in front of them. It was the same 30 years ago, only there were more horsemen around back then. The problem is that the business is SO incestuous, that many of the judges are worried about pissing someone off and losing future business from them (and I don't necessarily think it is about #s of horses showing to them, but future sales/clients).


And I don't think that a lot of the hunter judges know enough about the conformation of the young horse (yearlings, especially) and how it translates to the finished product.

Yeah, not much has changed in 30 years in regards to judging.

And, what a true statement. Many, many hunter judges know very little about youngsters, or how to judge them.

[pwynnnorman]

Originally Posted by pwynnnorman http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3076460#post3076460)
I have to admit, TC, that while those names are impressive, judging horses (in any discipline) is not rocket science either. We have a tendency to treat it like it is, but it ain't. The judges aren't genuises. There's no reason why other people can't become or can't be excellent judges--in ANY horse sport.


Those who tried to rebutt this statement missed my point, which was that it is hardly so complicated that, JUST LIKE A HALF HALT, it can't be LEARNED by someone reasonably intelligent.

Judging is NOT supposed to be an art. Handling horses well, anticipating what they do, sensing how they feel--yes, THAT can be akin to art or mystery (edited to add: at least to some folks, usually those who haven't grown up and worked deep within the industry to the point where handling is natural and almost instinctive). Maybe you won't get this, but ask some old time pro what he or she thinks of horse whispering and they'd probably start frothing at the mouth over it for similar reasons to what I'm trying to express here).

But we're talking about a sport here, folks. And in sports, you aren't supposed to be judged in some mystical OR artistic way. Puleeze, get past that. HB judges are not special creatures. If they are, then what the HECK are breeders? Too dumb to know what they are looking at? Anyone who has been seriously breeding and having success is a potential candidate for a hunter breeding judge. To say otherwise is an insult to breeders. After all, how the heck are we making our own breeding decisions, after all, if we can't judge the conformation of what we produce? (And, please, I'm not referring to myself. I do not not not intentionally go out and breed anything for the conformation division..which, in turn (since I know how you folks like to draw conclusions!) doesn't mean I don't produce anything that couldn't be competitive there either. I have no interest in judging and not much interest in sending horses into that particular ring either, at least not in the current climate.)

[lauriep]

Yes, they can learn, but they have to get past their egos first to be able to accept that maybe they don't know enough about conformation to judge it. And, as I mentioned above, the $$ and time it takes to get your card makes it difficult in the extreme for a professional to do it, and I would think that an amateur who works another job would be hard pressed, too.

But to assume that a hunter judge is well versed in assessing the conformation of a young horse is a reach, IMO.

I would love to see them have to justify their placements. At least hunter judges judge a performance that other people can also see, and hopefully evalutate correctly (I know, it doesn't always work that way, but there IS something for the general spectator to see and compare with placements). In HB, the differences can be minute enough to not be seen by those ringside, and the best mover doesn't always win, so why not justify your placements? Sure, they can write anything, but too much of a stretch could be challenged...

[ASB Stars]

I'd like to see them score the hunter in hand classes EXACTLY the way they score sport horse in hand classes. By a score. They do it over fences, they can do it in hand.

At least that way, they get to try and remember what scores they gave to their "buddies" :lol:

But seriously, the criteria could be changed a bit, but the competitor would have a sheet to take home that tells them exactly what the judged liked, and didn't, about their entry.:yes:

[pwynnnorman]

Yes, they can learn, but they have to get past their egos first to be able to accept that maybe they don't know enough about conformation to judge it. And, as I mentioned above, the $$ and time it takes to get your card makes it difficult in the extreme for a professional to do it, and I would think that an amateur who works another job would be hard pressed, too.

Egos, ah, yes. But that's why more women need to be involved! :D

And as to the expense and difficulty in getting one's card, I'm wondering why more (big) breeders don't? Seems to me that might be the most reasonable pool from whence to draw new judge blood. Why isn't it, do you suppose?

Does anyone have a link to a list of HB judges? I'm curious as to who, collectively, they actually are.

[lauriep]

I'm about to walk out the door to dinner, but if no one has provided it to you by the time I get back, I will. You can do a search on USEF for licensed judges. I could never get the "r" judges to show up, but the "R" is no problem.

Oh, yeah, and as far as breeders getting cards, again, I think the time element would be tough. You know how hard it is to get away from the farm...

[Janet]

Does anyone have a link to a list of HB judges? I'm curious as to who, collectively, they actually are.
Just go to the USEF site, and do a Licensed Officials Search.

You can get to it either from "Searches" or from "Licensed Officials".

Because they use frames, I can't give you a direct link. It will ask you to log in, but if you are a USEF member you can get the list.

I agree that it appears they are all R, no rs show up.

About 5 screens worth.

[lauriep]

Well, I can't get to it either because I tried too many times to log in and couldn't remember my password, so it locked my account until after midnight! :( Silly me!

[pwynnnorman]

I got it. Thanks. I'm going to analyze it to see where the judges come from. Should be interesting. I'll post what I find, but it'll be a while as there are a lot of 'em.