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nowoncourse
Mar. 5, 2008, 08:37 AM
Anyone know who is on the long list for the team? Have they made a short list yet?

tuppysmom
Mar. 5, 2008, 09:16 AM
The short list won't be chosen until July, just before shipping to England for quarantine. The team will be chosen just before shipping to Hong Kong. Selecting the team is always very last minute and is base on performance, fitness, and soundness It's a long way from here to there.

GotSpots
Mar. 5, 2008, 09:37 AM
Exactly. The Winter Training List A and B squads can give you some hints about what the selectors are thinking, but there's alot of time before the team is even narrowed down to the ten that go to England (and I understand the final five horse/riders aren't confirmed until the day they board the plane in England to head to HK).

ponyjumper4
Mar. 5, 2008, 09:56 AM
Rolex is essentially serving the purpose of a "trial", at least that's my understanding.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 10:02 AM
[QUOTE=GotSpots;3053382]Exactly. The Winter Training List A and B squads can give you some hints about what the selectors are thinking, QUOTE]


With some notable absences:no: BUT that does not preclude someone form declaring intent and fullfilling the selection criteria.

InVA
Mar. 5, 2008, 10:04 AM
Anyone know who is on the long list for the team? Have they made a short list yet?

We're ALL on the long list... its just a VERY VERY long list!! haha!

wlrottge
Mar. 5, 2008, 10:17 AM
I spoke with a selector over the weekend and got a little insight ;)

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 10:26 AM
I spoke with a selector over the weekend and got a little insight ;)


You cannot drop a bomb like that and not expand with in reason!!!!!

wlrottge
Mar. 5, 2008, 10:33 AM
;)

He sounded confident that there were some VERY strong horse/rider teams on the list and that some had stepped up their game. (I'm paraphrasing some and have to be general).

From the sounds of it, Rolex is going to be a GREAT event this year to watch!

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:04 AM
did any of the score 27 in the Olympic dressage test (at pinrtops), finsih inside the time XC, show jump clear, and finish on their dressage score????????????

Jazzy Lady
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:07 AM
did any of the score 27 in the Olympic dressage test, finsih inside the time, show jump clear, and finish on their dressage score????????????

Snoops, you should make up "Corrine for 2008 Beijing Olympics" buttons and pass them out at events.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:15 AM
Okay here it is:

Corinne and Dobbin have MORE than proved their worth for the winter training camps. Pinetops over the weekend was just one of many stellar performances. She does this off her own back, no help from anyone. Why is she being over looked?!!!
These camps are funded by US!!! the people who pay into the system.
She and Dobbin are too consistantly good to over look. And it happens all the time. No answers from anyone when queried about why...nothing.

Now I know corinne, but this goes beyond her.

My big problem is principle...How many Corinne's might there be? What does this say to others that even if you are one of the best...you have no shot in hell of being let in???
What more does one need to do? Well actually I am pretty sure, but that would be too vulgar to say here on this board.

If you look at the training list for this year, you would be shocked at who was invited...Some horses do not have a snowballs chance in hell at Olympic selection and I will go so far as to say for future selection.

Why not Dobbin? I can think of no one more deserving of at least a shot!! Corinne upholds the values of the Olympic spirit, which is more than I can say for a few.

People want stories, well how about a backyard horse and rider who fought tooth and nail to get where they are, done it on their terms, with dignity only to be ignored.
How do you think she feels when the press and people come up to her and say, Why are you not on the training list? She has been gracious, I for one whould have been far more vocal.

This is politics at its worst. This situation could happen to any one of us.
This is why I am furious.

CookiePony
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:18 AM
Very informative reading re Olympic selection procedures:
http://www.usef.org/documents/highPerformance/eventing/2008%20Olympic%20Selection%20Procedures.pdf

Jazzy Lady
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:32 AM
She should become a Canadian citizen and she'd be on the team right away. ;):p We'd love a chance at a medal!!! At least the Canadian selectors are looking at the developing riders a bit more than those who have already had a pink coat repeatedly.

I totally understand your frustration. Was this not the same as the Pan Am's selection? Sending in the "A" team who's been there, done it over and over again instead of focusing on up and comers who are showing consistency and improvement and giving them a team opportunity? I mean... all in the name of a medal I suppose, but the same goes for Canadian right now. Someone was left off the short list that should very well have been on it.

NeverTime
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:33 AM
Snoopy,
I'm as annoyed by the politics as anyone else, but didn't you say in another post that Dobbin travels poorly, or has traveled poorly in the past?
Given the lengthy trip to China and the weather conditions the horses are going to face there, I would *guess* that finding horses who will stand up to the climate will be on selectors' minds as much as performance and scores.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:36 AM
Snoopy,
I'm as annoyed by the politics as anyone else, but didn't you say in another post that Dobbin travels poorly, or has traveled poorly in the past?
Given the lengthy trip to China and the weather conditions the horses are going to face there, I would *guess* that finding horses who will stand up to the climate will be on selectors' minds as much as performance and scores.


I did NOT say he travels poorly. Someone else did. In any event, many horses are not stars in the back of a horse box. If the powers that be want to use this as an excuse, I will give then a list of those on the training list that a dreadful travelers. I am not saying give her an olympic spot, but rather the SAME opportunities as those on the training list to be in the best possible position to EARN that spot. This curtesy has not been extended in this case.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:44 AM
Snoopy,
I'm as annoyed by the politics as anyone else, but didn't you say in another post that Dobbin travels poorly, or has traveled poorly in the past?
Given the lengthy trip to China and the weather conditions the horses are going to face there, I would *guess* that finding horses who will stand up to the climate will be on selectors' minds as much as performance and scores.


Dobby has no health issues, is a small weedy TB who would find the conditions less challenging then some of the heavier horses that are being "concidered". He is out their running at the SAME events has everyone else and in the same conditions.

Meredith Clark
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:48 AM
Who is on the winter training lists?

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:59 AM
http://www.eventingnewsusa.com/useventhorse.php?news=20071208A

Jazzy Lady
Mar. 5, 2008, 12:16 PM
There are a few horses on there that have very obvious soundness issues or aren't even competing this year.

Regal Grace
Mar. 5, 2008, 12:19 PM
http://www.eventingnewsusa.com/useventhorse.php?news=20071208A


of the sport but looking at the list (even the B Squad), it really does make you wonder how the selection process works. Very discouraging too see : (

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 12:27 PM
and here is the galling thing

All this BS about an open, fair, and OBJECTIVE selection system...well that might fly on paper but when the training list is by invitation only and the team is most likely being selected from this group well then, you do the math.

c_expresso
Mar. 5, 2008, 12:34 PM
and here is the galling thing

All this BS about an open, fair, and OBJECTIVE selection system...well that might fly on paper but when the training list is by invitation only and the team is most likely being selected from this group well then, you do the math.

I am with snoopy on this one! I don't even know Corinne or Dobbin and it pisses me off! How can she win the AECs, be 9th at Fair Hill, 16th at Kentucky, CONSTANTLY winning, nearly ALWAYS placing in the top 8, in the Advanced and OI divisions against ALL the BNRs, NOT be on the long list? She can play with the big boys and often comes out on top... so what's the problem?

It sends out a terrible and discouraging message to people, especially kids like me, that if you aren't a huge BNR with a string of UL horses, then you don't have much of a chance to ever get on the Team.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 12:39 PM
I am with snoopy on this one! I don't even know Corinne or Dobbin and it pisses me off! How can she win the AECs, be 9th at Fair Hill, 16th at Kentucky, CONSTANTLY winning, nearly ALWAYS placing in the top 8, in the Advanced and OI divisions against ALL the BNRs, NOT be on the long list? She can play with the big boys and often comes out on top... so what's the problem?

It sends out a terrible and discouraging message to people, especially kids like me, that if you aren't a huge BNR with a string of UL horses, then you don't have much of a chance to ever get on the Team.


I will go one better:

Dobbin is ranked number 5 in the country!!!

Doodle
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:01 PM
and here is the galling thing

All this BS about an open, fair, and OBJECTIVE selection system...well that might fly on paper but when the training list is by invitation only and the team is most likely being selected from this group well then, you do the math.


How much do dobbin's owners contribute to whatever group that makes the decisions I wonder?

oops, did I say that out loud? :lol:

JenJ
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:03 PM
She should do the opposite of Stuart Black. Become a Canadian citizen and she'd be on the team right away. We'd love a chance at a medal!!! At least the Canadian selectors are looking at the developing riders a bit more than those who have already had a pink coat repeatedly.

I totally understand your frustration. Was this not the same as the Pan Am's selection? Sending in the "A" team who's been there, done it over and over again instead of focusing on up and comers who are showing consistency and improvement and giving them a team opportunity? I mean... all in the name of a medal I suppose, but the same goes for Canadian right now. Someone was left off the short list that should very well have been on it.

Jazzy - where is the Canadian short list posted?

purplnurpl
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:03 PM
It sends out a terrible and discouraging message to people, especially kids like me, that if you aren't a huge BNR with a string of UL horses, then you don't have much of a chance to ever get on the Team.

Agreed.
Enough said.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:04 PM
How much do dobbin's owners contribute to whatever group that makes the decisions I wonder?

oops, did I say that out loud? :lol:


And that folks aint no joke.

magnolia73
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:09 PM
Given some of the issues with the Swiss team etc. could there be a chance that Dobbin's owners and rider are not interested in the Olympics? It is a huge commitment to travel and no doubt expenses.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:15 PM
Given some of the issues with the Swiss team etc. could there be a chance that Dobbin's owners and rider are not interested in the Olympics? It is a huge commitment to travel and no doubt expenses.


That is for Corinne and Corinne alone to answer.
BUT not to be given the opportunity to train with the other candidates is the issue.
It would seem that the choice has been taken away from her.

Jazzy Lady
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:23 PM
Jazzy - where is the Canadian short list posted?

It's not.

poltroon
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:36 PM
It sends out a terrible and discouraging message to people, especially kids like me, that if you aren't a huge BNR with a string of UL horses, then you don't have much of a chance to ever get on the Team.

I have no idea what is going on in anyone's mind, but there are people on that list who aren't Big Names and who don't have a string of UL horses.

magnolia73
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:37 PM
It would seem that the choice has been taken away from her.

I don't know anything about the horse and rider. :) But you never know behind the scenes what goes on. It could be politics or it could be a rider who expressed a lack of desire to train with the team.

At any rate- I was always in awe of their photo in the Dover Saddlery catalog.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:41 PM
I don't know anything about the horse and rider. :) But you never know behind the scenes what goes on. It could be politics or it could be a rider who expressed a lack of desire to train with the team.

At any rate- I was always in awe of their photo in the Dover Saddlery catalog.

I know the rider

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:42 PM
I have no idea what is going on in anyone's mind, but there are people on that list who aren't Big Names and who don't have a string of UL horses.

Would you then compare their results to dobbin's?

seajay
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:19 PM
I do believe they have won the past 5 advanced events they have entered. Can anyone match that?

FrittSkritt
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:20 PM
I think the whole point is along the lines of, Corinne and Dobbin should at least be considered (which is a commendation to their great efforts & successes over the past few years) by being named to the training squad. The choice for her to go would rely first on the selectors, and above all her own decision if given the green light. Whether or not Dobbin is a good traveler/etc. is irrelevant at this point; I think it's more important that the committee needs some grassroots type of growing as opposed to "been there, done that, my horse is old and now lame" campaigners.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:29 PM
I know the rider


Did she do the paper work and submit her intent or what ever it is you have to do? Could it also be that they thought she didn't need the help from the training sessions since she is doing well on her own? No idea....but personally....I think going and running around Badminton is sooo much more impressive then the Olympics (not that I will ever be remotely close to completing either!)

Hope that who ever goes has success....

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:35 PM
Did she do the paper work and submit her intent or what ever it is you have to do? Could it also be that they thought she didn't need the help from the training sessions since she is doing well on her own? No idea....but personally....I think going and running around Badminton is sooo much more impressive then the Olympics (not that I will ever be remotely close to completing either!)

Hope that who ever goes has success....


I am sure she would love to do badminton and or burghley...well I know she would.
As far as doing so well that she does not need the training...well it does not work that way. And EVERYONE needs training and eyes on the ground.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:42 PM
I am sure she would love to do badminton and or burghley...well I know she would.
As far as doing so well that she does not need the training...well it does not work that way. And EVERYONE needs training and eyes on the ground.


True...I was being a bit sarcastic....although I like to pick who I'm getting help from...hard to turn down free help if it is good! I hope that she gets a good shot at Badminton and/or Burghley...and if she wants to go to the Olympics, I hope that she is considered. I personally don't care for the team thing....when I was a show groom....I learn quite a bit about it for the show jumpers (of course things are always changing). The thing that would pi$$ me off most though is that things like riding in the Olympics and making on a training list are helpful in selling yourself to sponsors/gaining clients (who will then pay for you to go to Badminton!).

mbj
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:48 PM
I always love watching Corinne and Dobbin. They are such a wonderful partnership. Rather than assuming politics are at work, I would tend to assume what others have suggested, that for whatever reasons the pair have not applied(submitted the paperwork) to be considered for the team. (Personally, I am not sure I would want my beloved horse of a lifetime to travel to Hong Kong.)
As far as winter training goes, perhaps the rider is not free to be away from obligations in New England for that long? Just saying there are any number of innocent reasons she is not on the list at this time.

pinkdiamondracing
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:49 PM
I vote for Sara and El Primero to be selected-- Tony is small and hardy, handles travel very well (his closest event in his area is over 18 hours away) he is dead sound (knock on wood) and has been consistent at upper level events such as Rolex. All of this is done on Sara's shoestring budget, and I personally think that the team would benefit from the likes of this young lady. She is hard working, and has done more with less than probably 90% of the riders out there.
'Nuff said

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:50 PM
True...I was being a bit sarcastic....although I like to pick who I'm getting help from...hard to turn down free help if it is good! I hope that she gets a good shot at Badminton and/or Burghley...and if she wants to go to the Olympics, I hope that she is considered. I personally don't care for the team thing....when I was a show groom....I learn quite a bit about it for the show jumpers (of course things are always changing). The thing that would pi$$ me off most though is that things like riding in the Olympics and making on a training list are helpful in selling yourself to sponsors/gaining clients (who will then pay for you to go to Badminton!).


Yes it does....being off the list, perceived unworthy has far reaching effects other then ego. It is a disgusting situation all around.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:54 PM
I always love watching Corinne and Dobbin. They are such a wonderful partnership. Rather than assuming politics are at work, I would tend to assume what others have suggested, that for whatever reasons the pair have not applied(submitted the paperwork) to be considered for the team. (Personally, I am not sure I would want my beloved horse of a lifetime to travel to Hong Kong.)
As far as winter training goes, perhaps the rider is not free to be away from obligations in New England for that long? Just saying there are any number of innocent reasons she is not on the list at this time.


She IS away from New England..she is in Aiken for the winter. Paper work has nothing to do with it either. Really it is irrelevant as the paper work to submit intent is not due in until the end of march. And being left off is not just this year. I am focusiing on this year for obvious reasons. Politics ARE in play.
And I must remind...this could happen to anyone in her position. This is not just about corinne. This is abouot fairness and so far the selectors have a lot to answer for.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:59 PM
I vote for Sara and El Primero to be selected-- Tony is small and hardy, handles travel very well (his closest event in his area is over 18 hours away) he is dead sound (knock on wood) and has been consistent at upper level events such as Rolex. All of this is done on Sara's shoestring budget, and I personally think that the team would benefit from the likes of this young lady. She is hard working, and has done more with less than probably 90% of the riders out there.
'Nuff said

I know I am harping on about Corinne but that is not to say that the likes of Sara are not in my mind as well. This is about anyone who deserves to be there but is not invited. And that is what it boils down to...an invitation.
Sadly it shows that hard work, a great horse, great results are not good enough. As someone said, just what message is this sending out???!!!
And guess what, we pay for this invitation through memebership fees, event entries etc,

ponyjumper4
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:02 PM
Don't you also have to submit paperwork to be considered to make the trianing lists as well? Seems to me if she was really being wronged by the whole situation she would have something to say about it, I know I would and I'd tell everyone that would listen if I was repeatedly and undeservedly overlooked.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:04 PM
[QUOTE=ponyjumper4;3054252] Seems to me if she was really being wronged by the whole situation she would have something to say about it, QUOTE]


Call her and ask her, I am sure she HAS something to say about it.

VicarageVee
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:18 PM
I agree with many of these posts. Certainly Corrine and Dobbin should have a shot, and I was surprised to discover that El Primero wasn't on that list, from what I've seen he's tough and hardy, and keeps running ***/**** every year for the past...what? 3? 4? years? Right? Often in the top 15, right?

But look. All in all, I think that these lists are fairly accurate, and certainly the A squad looks good to me. Is the big complaint here that ammys are being passed over? Should we pass over KO'C or Phillip Dutton just because they've gone in the past? Don't you think they work hard too? Do you want to limit them to 1 horse? I mean, really, what IS the right answer? I don't pretend to have it...

poltroon
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:20 PM
Would you then compare their results to dobbin's?

Well, I have no idea what they are thinking, nor have I been following everyone's results.

I would say that what I see from the other riders on the list that maybe aren't big names, have only one horse, is that they've competed outside of the US. I don't know if Corinne and Dobbin have done that or not, but some international experience seems to be a prerequisite for Olympic selection since the disasterous results in 1992, where we sent 3 horse/rider pairs who had never competed outside the US and J. Michael Plumb on a horse who had never competed outside the US.

It's not just about being good today, but showing that you can carry the winning streak, showing that you can handle the pressure of the high stakes. The sad fact is that a rider can't count on the USET any more to fund a rider's first international experience. Riders are having to raise their own money through AHTF or other means to get that.

But as my counterexamples: Jennifer Wooten isn't a big name, and has only the one horse. Gina Miles has only one horse. Heidi Carty has one horse, and not really a big name.

And 5 advanced horse trials in a row is impressive. But those lists contain 8 Olympic or world championship veterans, 4 of whom have Olympic medals, fairly impressive as well.

I appreciate that you're advocating for your rider, and I don't know why she's not on the list. But I don't think you need to be snide about the people who are. You're not helping her. Instead, ask honestly what she needs to get to the next step, and then help her to do that, and with a little luck, she'll be on the next one.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:20 PM
I agree with many of these posts. Certainly Corrine and Dobbin should have a shot, and I was surprised to discover that El Primero wasn't on that list, from what I've seen he's tough and hardy, and keeps running ***/**** every year for the past...what? 3? 4? years? Right? Often in the top 15, right?

But look. All in all, I think that these lists are fairly accurate, and certainly the A squad looks good to me. Is the big complaint here that ammys are being passed over? Should we pass over KO'C or Phillip Dutton just because they've gone in the past? Don't you think they work hard too? Do you want to limit them to 1 horse? I mean, really, what IS the right answer? I don't pretend to have it...

My point is NOBODY deserves to be over looked. I was not suggesting that. But some who should be there are not.

VicarageVee
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:26 PM
My point is NOBODY deserves to be over looked. I was not suggesting that. But some who should be there are not.

That is the case with EVERY olympics, EVERY panams, EVERY weg.

I want to see more West Coast horses on the list, but there are almost NONE of those! Where are the fab *** mares we have out here, they're not on the list?

And come to think of it, now I'm really miffed that El Primero isn't on that list. Wasn't he 2nd at Rebecca Farms? And in the top 15 at Kentucky two years in a row?

What's with the west coast prejudice!? Huh?

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:26 PM
Well, I have no idea what they are thinking, nor have I been following everyone's results.

I would say that what I see from the other riders on the list that maybe aren't big names, have only one horse, is that they've competed outside of the US. I don't know if Corinne and Dobbin have done that or not, but some international experience seems to be a prerequisite for Olympic selection since the disasterous results in 1992, where we sent 3 horse/rider pairs who had never competed outside the US and J. Michael Plumb on a horse who had never competed outside the US.

It's not just about being good today, but showing that you can carry the winning streak, showing that you can handle the pressure of the high stakes. The sad fact is that a rider can't count on the USET any more to fund a rider's first international experience. Riders are having to raise their own money through AHTF or other means to get that.

But as my counterexamples: Jennifer Wooten isn't a big name, and has only the one horse. Gina Miles has only one horse. Heidi Carty has one horse, and not really a big name.

And 5 advanced horse trials in a row is impressive. But those lists contain 8 Olympic or world championship veterans, 4 of whom have Olympic medals, fairly impressive as well.

I appreciate that you're advocating for your rider, and I don't know why she's not on the list. But I don't think you need to be snide about the people who are. You're not helping her. Instead, ask honestly what she needs to get to the next step, and then help her to do that, and with a little luck, she'll be on the next one.


With all do respect:
the 92 Olympipcs had NOTHING to do with horses not competing outside the USA. It had to do with the management of the team. I could go into great detail about that, but this is another story.
As far as asking why and how, it has been done with NO...read it...NO response from any of the selectors. Part of the problem is not having a reason...something to be addressed.
There is nothing snide. The fact is one of the horses on the list had not even gone ADV before the list was named!!! I am not saying that those on the list should not be there, what I am saying is based on performance and merit, I know of one that should be there and is not.
And it is not about luck.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=VicarageVee;3054324] Afterall, the Olympics is only a ***.
QUOTE]



The olympics are a CCIO****

VicarageVee
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:28 PM
Heidi Carty has one horse, and not really a big name.

.

Um. Northern Spy has been running at the **** level for quite awhile. I watched him run round Badminton in 2005. I would call that team a big name.

VicarageVee
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:31 PM
[QUOTE=VicarageVee;3054324] Afterall, the Olympics is only a ***.
QUOTE]



The olympics are a CCIO****

Shall I quote Jimmy Wofford that the xc at Athens was barely a *** track? It was an honest mistake, I thought that the Olympics had been downgraded to a *** to make it more accessible to competing countries who don't have a big eventing scene, as a safety measure

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:36 PM
[QUOTE=snoopy;3054330]

Shall I quote Jimmy Wofford that the xc at Athens was barely a *** track? It was an honest mistake, I thought that the Olympics had been downgraded to a *** to make it more accessible to competing countries who don't have a big eventing scene, as a safety measure

Yes his and many others was that it was too easy a test for the Olympics. That was from a design point. Never the less, they are supposed to be and rated a CCIO****.

poltroon
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:38 PM
With all do respect:
the 92 Olympipcs had NOTHING to do with horses not competing outside the USA. It had to do with the management of the team. I could go into great detail about that, but this is another story.
As far as asking why and how, it has been done with NO...read it...NO response from any of the selectors. Part of the problem is not having a reason...something to be addressed.
There is nothing snide. The fact is one of the horses on the list had not even gone ADV before the list was named!!! I am not saying that those on the list should not be there, what I am saying is based on performance and merit, I know of one that should be there and is not.
And it is not about luck.

I haven't talked to the selectors, and I don't know a thing about it... but it seems obvious to me that if she goes to England and kicks some butt at Badminton or Burghley, or can get in the top 5 at Rolex, that those things would get her on the list. She was shortlisted for the PanAms and then had a fall that took her out of it, according to her website. So that doesn't sound to me like they won't give her a look.

Of course it's about luck. Eventing is full of luck, bad and good. How many terrific combinations have we had who gotten hurt right before the Olympics?

Here's Corinne Ashton's website (http://www.03tilt.com/corinneashton/) which includes information on how you can send her a tax-deductible donation. They seem a terrific pair.

poltroon
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:41 PM
Um. Northern Spy has been running at the **** level for quite awhile. I watched him run round Badminton in 2005. I would call that team a big name.

To me a big name (in the context of Olympic selection) is someone who has represented the US internationally on multiple horses for multiple Olympiads. Your Mileage May Vary.

bambam
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:43 PM
I don't have a dog in this fight ;) but if you look at the B Squad list, I believe there are pairs as well as riders who have not competed internationally nor successfully competed at the 4 star level- so I am not sure some of the rationales offered above explain Corrine's absence can actually do so - also makes me wonder about the absence of some consistent proven pairs at the 3 and 4 star level like Corrine and Sara and some others.
Now I could be wrong about the record of those on the B squad because I have not memorized all the advanced, 3 star and 4 star results for the last 5 years ;) but that is my recollection. This is not a slam on any of those riders nor a comment on their talents/qualifications, just a statement that some of the reasons offered for not including Corrine do not seem to explain her absence from the winter training list.

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:00 PM
In any event..rant over:cool:

We all have out favourite combinations, who would you like to see on the team?

I would love to see Gryffindor...what a lovely horse and with last years performance at rolex think this horse and rider would have alot to offer the team.

flutie1
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:28 PM
"I would love to see Gryffindor...what a lovely horse and with last years performance at rolex think this horse and rider would have alot to offer the team."

That would be my first choice!

ponyjumper4
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:38 PM
I thought I read somewhere too recently that the Olympics was only a *** and was shocked to see that.

flutie1
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:43 PM
It's technically a 4*, but is admittedly softer than a WEG course.

Tiffany01
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:45 PM
what about teddy?

VicarageVee
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:48 PM
what about teddy?

Um.
He's on the A list. All of the Pan Am horses are. Except Nicky Henley who did a tendon (?right?) in Brazil...

c_expresso
Mar. 5, 2008, 05:48 PM
I love Gryffindor, Teddy, Poggio... I am so so sad that Jam is gone :no:

martyc
Mar. 5, 2008, 05:55 PM
I admire Corinne and Dobbin's accomplishments, Dobbin is a lovely horse. While it is disappointing that she has been overlooked for the Training Lists, I would have to agree that some International experience and a solid (as in no jump penalties) record at CCIs is what the Selectors are waiting for.

cyriz's mom
Mar. 5, 2008, 06:06 PM
I just looked up Corrinne's record because I, too, was shocked that she wasn't on the list. According to the online record, they did Rolex in 2005, but not since. Any chance that may have come into play in the decision making?

I know that making the team involves politics, but would love to have a better understanding of the process, especially since one rider on the list has not international experience, has been around Rolex once on a different horse and the horse on the list did one Adv. before the list came out. To me, that pair couldn't possibly have a real chance of making the 08 team and should have been on the developing rider list and a more experienced rider/horse put on the list.

c_expresso
Mar. 5, 2008, 06:17 PM
IMO Rolex is international experience. Yes it's in the US but MANY riders from the UK as well as other countries compete at it, so you get the idea.

VicarageVee
Mar. 5, 2008, 06:22 PM
I know that making the team involves politics, but would love to have a better understanding of the process, especially since one rider on the list has not international experience, has been around Rolex once on a different horse and the horse on the list did one Adv. before the list came out. To me, that pair couldn't possibly have a real chance of making the 08 team and should have been on the developing rider list and a more experienced rider/horse put on the list.

Hmmm. I hate these guessing games. But there certainly are some "new" combinations on this list. Horses and riders that haven't been together very long...but I also know that some of the B team couldn't participate in winter training because of horses recovering from injuries, etc...

I think the A squad is so solid that it is unlikely there will be much flexibility, especially with people like KOC and PD able to bring more than one horse along...

pwynnnorman
Mar. 5, 2008, 07:58 PM
Hey, but you might still see Jam at the Olympics. I just read in Horse and Hound that she's headed to Spain to get her rider qualified.

And I'm clueless about how the decisions are made, but if you look up some of the records, you do see some gaps in competition. Maybe those gaps are why the horses might be under consideration, but not being pushed through the stresses of training sessions. There were at least four hugely talented four-star horses who sat out more than half of 2007 (Gryffindor, Poggio, The Foreman, and Northern Spy).

But Dobbin is just incredibly consistent. Amazing that in his past 11 events, he finished first or second in all but two of them!

snoopy
Mar. 5, 2008, 08:02 PM
re jam

How nice would that be for bruce to see his horse make it to the games. It seems she really has that star quality, and I think we all secretly like our mares!!!;)

Meredith Clark
Mar. 5, 2008, 09:57 PM
Isn't Coal Creek young and an ex-race horse?

not saying he shouldn't be on the list.. or opening any Amy Tryon train wrecks again....

i'm just surprised he's gotten that far!

tuppysmom
Mar. 5, 2008, 10:24 PM
Are you really surprised that Coal Creek is an OTTB?

Poggio is, Gryffindor is also, as is El Primero. Mark Todd has ridden a number of former race horses as has Phillip Dutton. Wonderful athletes!

I don't know how much of the selection is political, I do think that some horses and riders are more familiar to the selectors than others. Is that good or bad?

Being on a "list" or not on a list is not what defines us. We will just continue on doing what we do.

Meredith Clark
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:16 PM
Not at all that he's an OTTB.. just that he's so young (imo) and come so far so fast. He was doing Prelim his first year off the track.

tuppysmom
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:47 PM
Oh, Ok, I understand. Good mind, good athlete, good ride.

flutie1
Mar. 6, 2008, 08:07 AM
"Poggio is, Gryffindor is also, as is El Primero. Mark Todd has ridden a number of former race horses as has Phillip Dutton. Wonderful athletes!"

Courageous Comet was a stakes horse. Thoroughbreds rule!!

c_expresso
Mar. 6, 2008, 09:34 AM
Not at all that he's an OTTB.. just that he's so young (imo) and come so far so fast. He was doing Prelim his first year off the track.

It's pretty typical, if the horse is up to it. Buck Davidson's horse, Titanium, was doing his first events this time last year after coming off the track, did a 1* last fall, and just moved up to intermediate.

Doodle
Mar. 6, 2008, 10:51 AM
Yes it does....being off the list, perceived unworthy has far reaching effects other then ego. It is a disgusting situation all around.

I'm not sure but I think I heard somewhere that the team trainers (mp?) get some sort of cash bonus for each medal the team earns... could this be true?!?!:eek:

InVA
Mar. 6, 2008, 10:59 AM
I'm not sure but I think I heard somewhere that the team trainers (mp?) get some sort of cash bonus for each medal the team earns... could this be true?!?!:eek:

I wouldn't be surprised... (not unlike corporate bonuses for a job well done? )

I wonder how much, though!

snoopy
Mar. 6, 2008, 11:11 AM
Ask John Williams..he knows.

2ponies
Mar. 6, 2008, 12:12 PM
snoopy...you hit the nail on the head with that one!

pwynnnorman
Mar. 6, 2008, 12:45 PM
I'm not sure but I think I heard somewhere that the team trainers (mp?) get some sort of cash bonus for each medal the team earns... could this be true?!?!:eek:


I wouldn't be surprised... (not unlike corporate bonuses for a job well done? )

I wonder how much, though!

Wait a minute, though. I heard that MP does NOT pick the team, though. He has no real say in who the selectors choose, although he can provide opinions and details. So if there's incentive for him to choose the best team, it's not whom "he" chooses as much as how well he coaches and manages whoever is chosen.

InVA
Mar. 6, 2008, 12:52 PM
Wait a minute, though. I heard that MP does NOT pick the team, though. He has no real say in who the selectors choose, although he can provide opinions and details. So if there's incentive for him to choose the best team, it's not whom "he" chooses as much as how well he coaches and manages whoever is chosen.

this might be true but if MP "doesn't like" the horse, no matter what it has done, it won't make the team... THAT is just what I've heard...

2ponies
Mar. 6, 2008, 12:55 PM
That is the word on the street InVa.

flutie1
Mar. 6, 2008, 01:52 PM
"He has no real say in who the selectors choose,"

Right. And I believe in the Easter bunny and Santa Claus!

snoopy
Mar. 6, 2008, 02:01 PM
I am NOT sure if this applies to the Pan Ams...but I KNOW it applies to the WEG/Olympics....if it does apply to the Pan Ams, then there folks, THAT is the reason for the riders choosen for that team. I KNOW how much he gets.

LisaB
Mar. 6, 2008, 02:11 PM
I'm glad you're on here Wynn, you get to hear both sides. We hear and know of the outside circle and you get to hear from the inside circle. It's very interesting ...
CMP has A LOT of say in the matter. Which as Chef, he should voice his picks. We just don't like him. If it were, let's say, Jimmy or David, I think we would be less inclined to second guess the team as they would be open to suggestions from lesser beings.

InVA
Mar. 6, 2008, 02:21 PM
I'm glad you're on here Wynn, you get to hear both sides. We hear and know of the outside circle and you get to hear from the inside circle. It's very interesting ...
.

It seems there are a lot of people on this forum that hear it (and see it) from the inside circle too..
hey snoopy, how much does he get? ;-)

poltroon
Mar. 6, 2008, 02:24 PM
My random sense is, from watching these lists for a long time, once they pick a rider on any horse, they tend to add any plausible/qualified horse for that rider too. So, you might not have picked, say, David O'Connor on his third horse if that was the only one he had, but if you've picked him with Custom Made and/or Giltedge already, and he's got another horse or two that have enough experience to be qualified, you might add them to the training lists. I don't know the repercussions of that or to what extent those extra horses bump other horse/rider combinations off the list.

Rolex is an international competition, but driving your horse to Kentucky and dealing with the FEI rules is still not the same as shipping over to Badminton and all the logistics, stress, excitement, and the like that goes with competing in Europe (or in this case, Asia).

snoopy
Mar. 6, 2008, 02:29 PM
My random sense is, from watching these lists for a long time, once they pick a rider on any horse, they tend to add any plausible/qualified horse for that rider too. So, you might not have picked, say, David O'Connor on his third horse if that was the only one he had, but if you've picked him with Custom Made and/or Giltedge already, and he's got another horse or two that have enough experience to be qualified, you might add them to the training lists. I don't know the repercussions of that or to what extent those extra horses bump other horse/rider combinations off the list.

Rolex is an international competition, but driving your horse to Kentucky and dealing with the FEI rules is still not the same as shipping over to Badminton and all the logistics, stress, excitement, and the like that goes with competing in Europe (or in this case, Asia).



Have you flown a horse before? Have you seen the process?

It is made as stress free as possible for the horses. I am not saying it is without stress, by no means, but let me tell you, my horse stepped off the plane in NY looking like he has just hacked over...It is far LESS stressful traveling a horse by air then 2 hours by road to a clinic. The annual winter migration from parts north to ocala/aiken is FAR more stressful a journey then getting on a plane and flying 7 hours to the UK.

poltroon
Mar. 6, 2008, 02:38 PM
Have you flown a horse before? Have you seen the process?

It is made as stress free as possible for the horses. I am not saying it is without stress, by no means, but let me tell you, my horse stepped off the plane in NY looking like he has just hacked over...It is far LESS stressful traveling a horse by air then 2 hours by road to a clinic. The annual winter migration from parts north to ocala/aiken is FAR more stressful a journey then getting on a plane and flying 7 hours ot the UK.

I don't think the concern is so much the horses as what it does mentally for the riders. It's pretty uncommon, for whatever reason, to see an American rider in any discipline, put in their best performance the first time riding in Europe. The horses probably don't even notice. :D

snoopy
Mar. 6, 2008, 02:57 PM
It seems there are a lot of people on this forum that hear it (and see it) from the inside circle too..
hey snoopy, how much does he get? ;-)


Okay are we sitting down, food and drink away.....

The reason for the "dream team" in the Pan Ams...you know they one where the US won Team, indv, gold, silver, bronze, the pans ams where we should have sent riders from the B squad and still won....
Well guess what folks he receives $.....PER medal!!!!

That decision did nothing to help develop future riders, that should have gone...it did nothing but line his pockets.


Edit: Now that it is out there, I have elected to remove the amount so that my butt is covered.

eqsiu
Mar. 6, 2008, 03:15 PM
That decision did nothing to help develop future riders, that should have gone...it did nothing but line his pockets.

I want that job.

grayarabs
Mar. 6, 2008, 03:45 PM
I am out of the loop in these things - but reading this and wondering - which horses from A and B squad will run Rolex this year? Will Teddy? Dumb question: which upcoming events will serve as decision makers - and which horses planning to run? Badminton? Burgley?

JenJ
Mar. 6, 2008, 03:50 PM
There were a full 10 points between the American in the Bronze place and the next highest non-American, in 5th place. I think you guys would still have had a chance at a clean sweep of the medals with a strong but less "A" team.

ponyjumper4
Mar. 6, 2008, 03:51 PM
Rolex is definitely one of them. I know Laine's horse (she's on the B squad) will be running, he was supposed to run last year. I'm sure most of the horses on the lists will be running at Rolex.

eqsiu
Mar. 6, 2008, 03:54 PM
There were a full 10 points between the American in the Bronze place and the next highest non-American, in 5th place. I think you guys would still have had a chance at a clean sweep of the medals with a strong but less "A" team.

We think so too. :cool: Kind of like using a gun to kill a fly, huh?

Candle
Mar. 6, 2008, 04:00 PM
We think so too. :cool: Kind of like using a gun to kill a fly, huh?

A gun like a cannon and a fly like a gnat? :D I am personally worried about what is going to happen when this current A squad retires, where are the up and coming riders with international experience who will take their places? (that's rhetorical)

boppin along
Mar. 6, 2008, 09:10 PM
So, who are these all powerful, all knowing, great ones and who actually picks these " selectors"?

tx3dayeventer
Mar. 6, 2008, 10:53 PM
Jim Graham is one (selector), or atleast used to be.

gahh... I can't remember all of them now. Oh well I knew one :D

tuppysmom
Mar. 6, 2008, 11:01 PM
Jim Graham is not a selector this year. I have the list, if I can find it in the mess that is our dining room table.

tx3dayeventer
Mar. 6, 2008, 11:06 PM
I wonder why Jim stepped down this year? He really enjoyed it, or used to enjoy it. I remember talking to him about the politics of it and he didnt like that side but seeing the up-and-comers "get it" made his day.

I guess the reasons previously mentioned in this thread wore him out of wanting to be a selector.

Can you tell, I am a big fan of Jim :D :D :yes: :D

tuppysmom
Mar. 6, 2008, 11:18 PM
Peter Green, chairman

members

Bea diGrazia
Anne Getchell
Ann Taylor
Mark Weissbecker

There are also quite a few alternates. The selectors are appointed by the USEF executive committee on the recommendation of the USEF eventing high performance committee and the USEF high performance working group.

cyriz's mom
Mar. 6, 2008, 11:23 PM
According to USEF Olympic Selection Application, Appendix G

2008 Eventing Selectors

Peter Green
Bea DiGrazia
Anne Getchell
Ann Taylor
Mark Weissbecker
Wash Bishop, Alternate
Gretchen Butts, Alternate
Cindy Collier, Alternate
Dorothy Crowell, Alternate
Phyllis Dawson, Alternate
Jim Graham, Alternate
Ralph Hill, Alternate
Jack LeGoff, Alternate
Karen O'Connor, Alternate


Can anyone tell me who the two Ann(e)s are? I'm drawing a blank on them.

TXAuburnTiger
Mar. 7, 2008, 12:35 AM
There are a lot of politics involved, but in the end, it seems that the teams are usually well picked.

I'm trying to be generic here to not say too much....

The BNR that I trained with was finally, after years of successful advanced competition, was picked for a WEG team. There was some scuffle for awhile with him and some of the team members and I think that affected some other team selections, including the 1996 games and after. But, since then, the scuffle/political stuff has worked itself out and making teams has not been a problem.

My point being that Corrine will get there, it just may take awhile. Is it fair that she's being "overlooked" now when she's at such a career high? Absolutely not. But, that seems to be the way the sport goes. The big names don't get that way overnight and often not on just one horse. It's a shame that more focus is not placed on the developing riders, and it does seem that certain people just keep making team after team, but it's almost time for a new generation!!

poltroon
Mar. 7, 2008, 12:56 AM
Okay are we sitting down, food and drink away.....

The reason for the "dream team" in the Pan Ams...you know they one where the US won Team, indv, gold, silver, bronze, the pans ams where we should have sent riders from the B squad and still won....
Well guess what folks he receives $.....PER medal!!!!


Just think what it would do for American sporthorse breeding if we kicked back even a fifth of that to the breeders. :D

jumpxc
Mar. 7, 2008, 07:19 AM
Ann Taylor used to be Anne Sutton and then Anne Hardaway. She rode on the 1988 Olympic team on Tarzan.

Anne Getchell owns and runs Groton House Farm.

Amy

pwynnnorman
Mar. 7, 2008, 08:36 AM
Y’know, this is almost funny. A year ago, I was one of YOU (skeptics) when it came to this process. Don’t y’all remember my outrage over Teddy being left off the Winter Training list in spite of the fact that other rides Karen had who hadn’t even competed at the 3-star level were on it with her (not that he had anything like Dobbin's record to really back up my outrage)?

[But anyway, my do times change, huh? I feel quite “establishment” now.]

Nevetheless, I suspect reality is just as MP stated in Eventing magazine where he clearly implied that others not on the list could indeed catch the selectors’ eyes: “In sport, there is always an opportunity for someone to step up to the plate to be counted.” For example, as happened I'm sure with Ted last year, they aren’t going to ignore a horse that places well at any of the big events, especially Rolex—and they aren’t going to forgive ones that do poorly, either, no matter how impressive they may have been in the training sessions or in the past (unless they have no choice but to use the horse, which I gather was why Upstage got onto the WEG team in '06).

And, yes, there are a number of people here who can give far better perspectives from the inside than I, and maybe we can all help explain some things--like the way A list riders have extra horses on the list who are less qualified. That became so rational to me in the week before the Pan Ams when horses went lame or otherwise became unavailable. I now realize that it makes financial and managerial sense to develop the riders’ second string horses along with the first string. I suspect if something happened to a first string horse early in the process, that rider might very well be replaced by another pair entirely. However, the closer you get to them getting on the plane, the less flexible your choices become due to sheer logistics if nothing else.

boppin along
Mar. 7, 2008, 08:58 AM
The reality of it is that whenever you have a competitive sport , no matter what level, there is ALWAYS a power-political struggle and difference of opinions, just take a look within your local Pony Club or Young Riders or Area organization ...or your local little leagues, soccer, gymnastics,
etc.
There are always the control freaks who want to run the shows and love to hear themselves talk!l
You get a group of Type A's together no matter WHAT the group, USEF<USEA<FEI, and sparks will fly. and the sad thing seems to be that true unbiased , well intentioned individuals get shut down in the process.

flutie1
Mar. 7, 2008, 09:48 AM
The "excuse" I have heard for both Dobbin and Lion King being left off any list is they ship badly. Lion King had the best record going into Jersey Fresh last year, but Jon was told not to bother to stay to jog if he had so much as a rail in show jumping. Dobbin's record to date is impeccable.
So does anyone know? Do they ship that badly?

fooler
Mar. 7, 2008, 10:10 AM
Okay are we sitting down, food and drink away.....

The reason for the "dream team" in the Pan Ams...you know they one where the US won Team, indv, gold, silver, bronze, the pans ams where we should have sent riders from the B squad and still won....
Well guess what folks he receives $.....PER medal!!!!

That decision did nothing to help develop future riders, that should have gone...it did nothing but line his pockets.


Edit: Now that it is out there, I have elected to remove the amount so that my butt is covered.


This is my take on the Pan Am Dream Team: I saw it as a trial run of at least 1/2 of the Olympic Team - This was the 1st opportunity to have both Dutton & KOC on the same team. A good place to see if everyone played well together.
Just to let you know - I have only met each of these folks in passing. I have officiated at events where both competed and both have presented themselves in a manner I would aspire to emulate.
But keep in mind Dutton is a new US citizen & has not been a member of any of our teams 'growing' up. Plus someone may have 'wondered' why the Aussies did not include him on the 2004 team.

hey101
Mar. 7, 2008, 12:51 PM
I am not excited about our (potential) Olympic team for a number of reasons.

I really really admire Phillip Dutton- he is one of my favorite riders- but I feel it is "cheating" to put him on our team, at least this time around. Yes yes, I know he has been living and competing here for years- but that's still how I feel.

and even worse, I truly truly believe Amy's actions last April were unintentional and that if she could give anything to go and take it back, she would-- but I DO NOT RESPECT putting her on this Olympic team.

I am much more excited to cheer for Mark Todd's return to competition- I hope he wins it all.

Teddy, Sara, Corrinne, and Kristin Bachman. That is a team I would be excited about. We may not win or even medal, but that is a team that to me exemplfies what the Olympics is all about.

LexInVA
Mar. 7, 2008, 01:22 PM
Olympic selection these days is all about winning internationally and pleasing the folks who have invested a lot of their money, social currency, and horseflesh in propping up the USEF and certain ULRs.

mbj
Mar. 7, 2008, 01:28 PM
2nd string horses do go to the Olympics. Our horse Heyday got to go instead of the better Eagle Lion because Heyday was very naughty and "broke" Bruce at Rolex. Bruce was amazingly tough and completed with Heyday, and a broken shoulder (I believe). The better horse, and therefor 2nd ride, Eagle Lion, didn't get to compete and therefore didn't qualify , so they were stuck with teaching Heyday to actually do decent dressage and improve his show jumping. They put him on the team because Bruce was riding and they were a guaranteed completion (xc machine) and very sound. He was also a little lean mean machine and good for Georgia heat and the twisty course. Still seems crazy to me that the fabulous Eagle Lion couldn't go.
It is too bad that economics etc make it impossible to have Team horses that get ridden by the best riders. Saved horses unnecessary miles qualifying....and maybe fairer for less well-heeled or sponsored but talented riders. All that team-based coaching was also pretty nifty!

pwynnnorman
Mar. 7, 2008, 05:15 PM
mbj, you introduce another factor that it might be worth folks keeping in mind: the right horse for the course. I've heard that discussed, too. So horse X may be overall just fabulous, but he may not be reliable in deep, rocky, hard (or whatever) footing or may not be as handy with twisty, rollercoaster, flat, etc. terrain. I've heard that they do take "style" into account, too. Don't know just how much, though.

cllane1
Mar. 7, 2008, 05:18 PM
We talked to Jim Graham last weekend (he was the Pres. of Ground Jury at an HT we were at) and he mentioned that he's stepped down as a selector to give some others a chance to be involved in the process.

tx3dayeventer
Mar. 7, 2008, 05:21 PM
We talked to Jim Graham last weekend (he was the Pres. of Ground Jury at an HT we were at) and he mentioned that he's stepped down as a selector to give some others a chance to be involved in the process.

Thanks, Cllane1!! I put a call into him but i'm sure you know how hard it is to get a hold of him. My curiosity is solved, well for this subject.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 7, 2008, 05:27 PM
2nd string horses do go to the Olympics. Our horse Heyday got to go instead of the better Eagle Lion because Heyday was very naughty and "broke" Bruce at Rolex. Bruce was amazingly tough and completed with Heyday, and a broken shoulder (I believe). The better horse, and therefor 2nd ride, Eagle Lion, didn't get to compete and therefore didn't qualify , so they were stuck with teaching Heyday to actually do decent dressage and improve his show jumping. They put him on the team because Bruce was riding and they were a guaranteed completion (xc machine) and very sound. He was also a little lean mean machine and good for Georgia heat and the twisty course. Still seems crazy to me that the fabulous Eagle Lion couldn't go.
It is too bad that economics etc make it impossible to have Team horses that get ridden by the best riders. Saved horses unnecessary miles qualifying....and maybe fairer for less well-heeled or sponsored but talented riders. All that team-based coaching was also pretty nifty!


But Heyday did pretty darn well in Georgia didn't he? I thought he was in the top 10....that isn't shabby even for a "1st" string horse! So perhaps in the end....the right horse did go!

mbj
Mar. 7, 2008, 06:07 PM
Yes, Heyday did do well (heck, he had Bruce on him!), but Iggie might well have gotten an individual Gold. As a totally random aside, has anyone else noticed how "good" horses often REALLY enjoy their food? Maybe it is elan vital, zest for life....
Pwynnnorman, I bet Mr. Superpony would be a great match for the weather rigors , etc of Hong Kong-- smart, tough and brave!

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 7, 2008, 06:10 PM
As a totally random aside, has anyone else noticed how "good" horses often REALLY enjoy their food? Maybe it is elan vital, zest for life....



Or really enjoy their peppermints!

ashtons
Mar. 8, 2008, 09:55 PM
The "excuse" I have heard for both Dobbin and Lion King being left off any list is they ship badly. Lion King had the best record going into Jersey Fresh last year, but Jon was told not to bother to stay to jog if he had so much as a rail in show jumping. Dobbin's record to date is impeccable.
So does anyone know? Do they ship that badly?

Dobbin does not ship badly :winkgrin:, he has rather sucessfully shipped all over the country from way up in Massachusetts for many years. He, like myself, however, is not a fan of long boring trailer rides, he doesn't eat or drink much on the road, unlike me! So we try to do 10hrs or less each day

audgesmom
Mar. 8, 2008, 10:01 PM
My horse poos where dobbin used to poo!!!!!!!!! My daughter's eventer lives in the stall he used to live in.................I hope it brushes off!!!! GOOOO Dobbin and Corrine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are behind you all the way.................M+C and the ONBPC

poltroon
Mar. 9, 2008, 12:13 AM
As I was contemplating this thread today, I was thinking that no one considered Teddy 'A' list until he went to the Pan-Am Games! :)

Welcome, Corinne! :)

sofiethewonderhorse
Mar. 9, 2008, 01:07 AM
you introduce another factor that it might be worth folks keeping in mind: the right horse for the course

Pwynnorman: my thoughts are that you hit the nail on the head

Regards

Kathryn

3dazey
Mar. 9, 2008, 09:44 AM
mbj, I so clearly remember standing at the 5th fence xc at Atlanta and watching Bruce and Heyday flying over it...I had goosebumps and tears in my eyes. Even my non-horsey hubby was awestruck.

He was definitely the horse for that competition, and no second guessing. Congrats on owning him. :yes:

closetoperfectionfarm
Mar. 9, 2008, 10:22 AM
Rolex will be very intersting this year given the numbers of those jockeying for a spot, and let's face it, there are a lot!!!!
I find it very telling though that in the last month and for the next few months, look at the entries for all the big Advanced and ***'s.
It seems that most of the contenders are entered every 2 weeks in either an advanced or a 3* up until Rolex.
Pine Top-Pine Top- Red Hills- Poplar- Fork-then Rolex- WOW that seems like a lot
It will be also interesting to see who is left standing, literally!

tuppysmom
Mar. 9, 2008, 10:40 AM
It will come down to soundeness, in the end. We won't have a short list until July.

I think that the show jumpers have already picked their short list.

pinkdiamondracing
Mar. 9, 2008, 11:28 AM
This is the team that I would like to see represent the U.S.--Kristen Bachman and Gryffindor, Karen O'Connor and Theodore O'Connor, Sara Mittleider and El Primero, and Corrine Ashton and Dobbin

tx3dayeventer
Mar. 9, 2008, 03:22 PM
This is the team that I would like to see represent the U.S.--Kristen Bachman and Gryffindor, Karen O'Connor and Theodore O'Connor, Sara Mittleider and El Primero, and Corrine Ashton and Dobbin

That would be one Kick A$$ team!!!

closetoperfectionfarm
Mar. 9, 2008, 06:22 PM
If CMP has anything to say, there is NO WAY that Amy Tryon and Phillip Dutton won't make the team... I think they are both shoe-ins.

Event4Life
Mar. 9, 2008, 06:27 PM
Sorry to sound clueless...but why do you say that? (not that I have anything against Amy Tyrone or Phillip Dutton, but you sound awfully sure of yourself)

I'd really like to see Sara get on the team, I've been following her story for ages and she definitely deserves it and has proven herself!!

pwynnnorman
Mar. 9, 2008, 07:07 PM
I'd love to see Poggio one more time. He is just such an exciting, unusual horse.

I think there are a heck of a lot of great x-c horses to choose from in this country, but to be competitive, we need that plus the dressage and the reliability in stadium. (Sound) horses that offer the entire package, IMO, will be the ones that earn a berth. Look at what France and Germany are going to be throwing at us!

Actually, anyone care to speculate about the competition abroad? Nicolas Touzaint, for example, seems to be postively on fire, wouldn't you say? And who do you suppose is A list for the Brits?

mbj
Mar. 9, 2008, 08:20 PM
Thank-you, ThreeDazey! My mother, Elinor Jenny, and Mary Hazzard, had a nice nick going between Babamist and More Mischief.

EquiAndrea
Mar. 12, 2008, 10:33 AM
TX3DayEventer: You have a PM.

flutie1
Mar. 12, 2008, 11:07 AM
Dobbin does not ship badly :winkgrin:, he has rather sucessfully shipped all over the country from way up in Massachusetts for many years. He, like myself, however, is not a fan of long boring trailer rides, he doesn't eat or drink much on the road, unlike me! So we try to do 10hrs or less each day

Thanks Corinne. I'll happily correct the person who suggested that. Dobbin rocks!!

flutie

Shrapnel
Mar. 12, 2008, 11:08 AM
There are 5 team members on an Olympic Team now. Best 3 scores count. No additional individuals.

snoopy
Mar. 12, 2008, 11:10 AM
Dobby is enroute to Red Hills where hopefully he will kick ass once again. Good news for the Southern Pines crowd...in her prep for rolex, instead of going back to the frozen north, we have managed to convince her to relocate from Aiken to SP until then. If you see her about, please show your support. Corinne is a great lady and would so appreciate that.:D

bosox
Mar. 13, 2008, 09:30 AM
Somewhere on pg 4---someone posts that there was a need to send a team that had international experience.

Where did KOC/DOC get their experience before being on the Olympic Team? I honestly don't know but the Olympics were suppose to be how you got pushed out of A status to P status....

I find it sad---that people who have been there before refuse to get off the stage and not give other hopefuls a chance to shine. If my kid was a runner/swimmer/shooter--my kid could have a chance at being an Olympic athlete. In the sport of riding--they have no chance whatsoever. :cry:

Somewhere along the line--things changed. The hopefuls went, did, won and started their business---and now they want another repeat. They line their business w/their medals-and continue to make it unreachable for many, many future stars b/c those riders don't have the same deep pockets.

Isn't their enough glory to go around for everyone?

Dressage62
Mar. 13, 2008, 09:43 AM
I like Dobbin-- he's very photogenic.

DLee
Mar. 13, 2008, 09:48 AM
I thought KOC and DOC lived in GB for a while.

snoopy
Mar. 13, 2008, 09:53 AM
David and Karen went off to live and train with Lars in the Uk where they gained much experience competing in europe. They did not have great financial backing at this point. The call came for them to return home to a very tasty situation. Part of that situation was a state of the art barn, horses of super high calibre bought for them. It was then a case of working hard to develop their riding skills...but without the added pressures that most find themselves in. There was definately some advantage there.
As far as moving off the stage, when one chooses sport at the highest level, and one earns a living from it, one is very reluctant to give up the perks and advantages that come with the glory of sport at that level.
IF these riders have the best horses for the relevant team then fair enough, But my problem is this:

There are others out there, with out all these advantages but never the less have great drive, determination, and a horse to bring them to the top of the sport...with help from those who are driving the sport. These are the people who slip through the cracks in favour of those who have already been there.
Let the best man win...but this will never be the case when they have little opportunity to better themselves because they are not developed in favour of the others with big sponsors and many horses....all of which came about because they were given that chance to shine.
Mark has picked his choosen few and has concentrated his efforts on them and their never ending supply of money and horses. He has made a tidy profit off this approach, but at the expense of the programme as a whole.

He is putting his eggs in ONE basket, and it is paying off for him, but not the sport as a whole.

They want riders with horses and sponsors but that will never come about if they are not given the same opportunities as those that are collecting dust on the training lists.

The US has some incredibly talented, dedicated horses and riders, and sadly most of those will never reach the very top.

I personally believe that we are losing some great horses because those not on the list have to work/compete all that much harder in order to prove their worth, whilst others are allowed to ride their horses to a softer schedule. So often they are allowed time faults, to run only two phases, skip events ect. The others knocking at the door do not have this luxury. If they are not perfect 100% of the time then so often their time faults or odd rail is used as an excuse to keep them off the list.

Fair play and fair opportunity will never materialize under the current management.

pwynnnorman
Mar. 13, 2008, 12:25 PM
I like Dobbin-- he's very photogenic.

Y'can't post like that without providing substantiation.

PHOTO PLEASE? :)

poltroon
Mar. 13, 2008, 01:07 PM
David and Karen went off to live and train with Lars in the Uk where they gained much experience competing in europe. They did not have great financial backing at this point. The call came for them to return home to a very tasty situation. Part of that situation was a state of the art barn, horses of super high calibre bought for them. It was then a case of working hard to develop their riding skills...but without the added pressures that most find themselves in. There was definately some advantage there.

David was the last USET Resident Rider for Jack Le Goff, but before that, his credentials were fairly thin. In the early '90s, David and Karen lived and competed seperately in England before they were married: David worked for Lars Sederholm and Karen was based with Mark Phillips. Karen first competed at Badminton in 1979 - she was 10th.

Karen was fortunate to get some great owners even before she went to live in England (passed in part to her by Jimmy Wofford) and she has had tremendous skill in keeping them.

There are a lot more riders now. In the 1980's, if you got to Advanced, you'd probably end up on a Team. Now there are a lot more good riders at that level. One of the things David O'Connor has talked about was the way Le Goff pitted the riders he had against each other, making it very ugly among some of the riders. Today, there are more good riders than Team competition slots.

I would like to see more Team opportunities for those riders knocking at the door at Advanced. But, the implication that no new riders get through some sort of plastic barrier, is, I think, incorrect. It may be that people get through for different reasons, and that people who should get through don't, but I see several riders on that list with only one horse and without unlimited sponsorship.

I think it is a fact of life that as long as the USET is engaging a coach, that he is going to get along with some riders and not get along with others. That is just how it is. However, I don't think the days when we had no coach worked out better.

If someone is in the unfortunate position of being on the wrong side of the current coach, that is sad. But, there is more to life than the USET or the Olympics, and there are many fine horsemen who have not had the good luck to have a hot streak and a sound horse in the spring of an Olympic year.

tx3dayeventer
Mar. 13, 2008, 01:35 PM
David and Karen went off to live and train with Lars in the Uk where they gained much experience competing in europe. They did not have great financial backing at this point. The call came for them to return home to a very tasty situation. Part of that situation was a state of the art barn, horses of super high calibre bought for them. It was then a case of working hard to develop their riding skills...but without the added pressures that most find themselves in. There was definately some advantage there.
As far as moving off the stage, when one chooses sport at the highest level, and one earns a living from it, one is very reluctant to give up the perks and advantages that come with the glory of sport at that level.
IF these riders have the best horses for the relevant team then fair enough, But my problem is this:

There are others out there, with out all these advantages but never the less have great drive, determination, and a horse to bring them to the top of the sport...with help from those who are driving the sport. These are the people who slip through the cracks in favour of those who have already been there.
Let the best man win...but this will never be the case when they have little opportunity to better themselves because they are not developed in favour of the others with big sponsors and many horses....all of which came about because they were given that chance to shine.
Mark has picked his choosen few and has concentrated his efforts on them and their never ending supply of money and horses. He has made a tidy profit off this approach, but at the expense of the programme as a whole.

He is putting his eggs in ONE basket, and it is paying off for him, but not the sport as a whole.

They want riders with horses and sponsors but that will never come about if they are not given the same opportunities as those that are collecting dust on the training lists.

The US has some incredibly talented, dedicated horses and riders, and sadly most of those will never reach the very top.

I personally believe that we are losing some great horses because those not on the list have to work/compete all that much harder in order to prove their worth, whilst others are allowed to ride their horses to a softer schedule. So often they are allowed time faults, to run only two phases, skip events ect. The others knocking at the door do not have this luxury. If they are not perfect 100% of the time then so often their time faults or odd rail is used as an excuse to keep them off the list.

Fair play and fair opportunity will never materialize under the current management.

Amen! Once again snoopy is right on the money.

In regards to what Poltroon said.... There may be many great riders with only one horse on the "list" but they are certainly not on the Team. There is a huge difference between being on the List and being on the Team.

fitzwilliam
Mar. 13, 2008, 09:23 PM
Bosox's comment's about how if her child was a runner/swimmer they would have a better chance of making an Olympic team than an equestrian presents an interesting dichotomy. Horse sports are one of the few elite sports that someone in their 50's can compete on the same footing as an athelete in their 20's. This is one reason why there is so much sompetition for Team spots but this is also another reason why we love our sport! You don't see many gymnasts in their 30's still out there!

yellowbritches
Mar. 13, 2008, 10:17 PM
Bosox's comment's about how if her child was a runner/swimmer they would have a better chance of making an Olympic team than an equestrian presents an interesting dichotomy. Horse sports are one of the few elite sports that someone in their 50's can compete on the same footing as an athelete in their 20's. This is one reason why there is so much sompetition for Team spots but this is also another reason why we love our sport! You don't see many gymnasts in their 30's still out there!
You pretty much said what I was about to post.

With maybe the exception of golf (and there they break them up into Seniors, so I guess that doesn't really count), you can stay competitive for a long, long time, with the right luck, right horses, and right program. That's why the winter training list ranges from riders in their early 20s to riders in their 50s!

And I have heard the complaint of riders that have been competitive and on teams for a long time needing to give way for the younger generation (Oli Townsend in the UK was very vocal a couple of years ago...maybe before the WEG??), but I don't think it is fair. A good rider, especially a good rider that is a good team rider, is NOT going to want to give up their spot. They've worked hard to get there, and have proven themselves by producing and riding good horses, and continue to do so. At some point they were the younger generation, and they fought their way up and onto the team...why should it be different now? And this is coming from someone who HAS team aspirations (though, I'm a ways away at the moment...). If I DID have a horse at the level we're discussing, I'd no sooner whine about KOC or PD or AT stepping down and giving me a shot than jump of a bridge. If you play the game right and prove yourself, you will get your turn.

Well, at least, that's how it is SUPPOSED to go...no really sure what is up with Corrine and Dobbin and a couple of others. :(

Snapdragon
Mar. 13, 2008, 10:20 PM
It would be nice to see the younger riders getting a chance--or more of a chance than they seem to be getting. But, riding, unlike gymnastics, swimming, etc., generally favors a rider with more experience (as long as he/she can keep up with the mental and physical demands), which, by the way, as I get older, I really appreciate.

I would love to see a combination of some of our younger riders and been there/done that gang on the team.

fooler
Mar. 15, 2008, 02:44 AM
This is a song that has been sung for many a year.

Between the 60's and mid-to-late 70's we did not have the depth of Advance riders, so if you were riding Advance & your horse was sound you most likely made the team. Since the 1978 World's in Lexington, we have had more & more folks w/ Advance experience. Everything came to a head in 1984.
LeGeoff would bring his core team + others to the training sessions. But everyone knew the only there was only one slot because Plumb, Davison or Wofford had the other 3. In fact there was a famous punch when one rider who had been to a training session found out he had no chance at making the team. He layed out LeGeoff, in front everyone at a 'selection' HT. LeGeoff knew who he wanted & would not change it unless his chosen ones were unavailale or un-horsed.
FYI - 1984 Olympic Games was his last time as US coach (Several of the team riders stated they had learned all they needed from LeGeoff & could do well without him). Also this was the last time we did well until the Captain was brought on.

snoopy
Mar. 15, 2008, 06:12 AM
[QUOTE=fooler;3075193]
In fact there was a famous punch when one rider who had been to a training session found out he had no chance at making the team. He layed out LeGeoff, in front everyone at a 'selection' HT. QUOTE]


And that folks would be Mr Peter Green....the now chairman of selectors...
Isn't it ironic?!!!:(

tuppysmom
Mar. 15, 2008, 10:48 AM
My My, I have learned so much from these last few posts!

RunForIt
Mar. 15, 2008, 11:22 AM
As I've made my way through all these posts, its occurred to me that its provided an incredible history of the evolution of eventing at the top levels - rereading many of these posts has made for some insights that I wouldn't have made without this thread. Even given that much written here is opinion, the ideas have come from folks whose thinking I've come to trust and therefore consider.

Regarding the sports of running and swimming re: teams - having been on the faaarrr edges of national class in both at younger ages, believe me, there is a HUGE amount of politics and coaches controlling who makes teams and on what spots for different events. I don't condone it in any sport, but since we're dealing with the human mind, the reality is that "control" will always be part of the picture at all levels. Money too.

We'll see how open the door is to well-placed newcomers on the Team as the season nears the selection time. If Dobbin can stay sound, an incredible uproar will errupt from the masses of lower level eventers should Corrinne be left out of the mix. Instant communication of results, videos simply weren't there to inform the eventing public, so lots happened - it wasn't necessarily kept secret - it just wasn't shared.

The latter prompts this question, did the size of the USEA (then USCTA) membership at large have any influence on how le Goff was able to manage and maneuver members of the Team? With all due respect to the CMP's power, I cannot imagine that he'll be able to leave Corrine behind protecting his slots for his own riders. The membership would throw a fit! AND make it known in the press...:cool: (and yes, i do understand that the USET isn't USEA...)

alliemare
Mar. 15, 2008, 12:01 PM
I dont know if anyone has mentioned this in the past 8 pages, but Im super happy to see Bonnie Mosser and Merloch on the A squad list. She has been just-out-of-luck the past few team selections with Jenga (and again the shoeing dissapointment of the panams) and I really think she deserves a shot at making the team. Plus, Merry is jaw-dropping amazing both on the flat and over fences. :eek:

Go Bonnie and Merloch!!!

RunForIt
Mar. 15, 2008, 01:29 PM
mbj, I so clearly remember standing at the 5th fence xc at Atlanta and watching Bruce and Heyday flying over it...I had goosebumps and tears in my eyes. Even my non-horsey hubby was awestruck.

He was definitely the horse for that competition, and no second guessing. Congrats on owning him. :yes:

Damn! We were right there together and didn't even know it! That was when DH decided he really DID want to ride horses...IF he could ride like Bruce! We had no clue who we were watching, but spent the whole weekend running all over XC (literally) to watch Bruce.

DH stuck to running and began golfing :lol: :D :cool: