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harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 3, 2008, 11:46 PM
Once again, because I have little else to occupy my mind, I was wondering where the BNT's get all of the illegal drugs. What sort of pharmaceutical company manufactures drugs which are illegal? Do vets willingly prescribe them? If drugs at the shows are such a problem, why does every tent have a "used sharps" box in plain view? Are there other disciplines where these drugs are approved for competition? Are the drugs being smuggled in from other countries? Are the clients billed for the illegal drugs?

Janet
Mar. 3, 2008, 11:55 PM
In most cases, the drugs are perfectly LEGAL to USE on a horse that is not showing. It is only against the rules to SHOW while using them.

There are also things which it IS legal to inject during the show- hence the "sharps" boxes.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 3, 2008, 11:57 PM
Sorry Janet, I really did mean the drugs that are illegal to use at a show.

Janet
Mar. 3, 2008, 11:58 PM
Sorry Janet, I really did mean the drugs that are illegal to use at a show.
Then i do not understand your quesion.

onwego
Mar. 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
I totally thought this was going to be a thread on BNT and the illegal drugs they use themselves!;) The BNT that I know typically get their drugs from vets and I can think of several vets offhand that are known for getting you what you need. Of course no naming names.

poltroon
Mar. 4, 2008, 12:04 AM
For example: ace is illegal to show with, but it's a perfectly legal pharmaceutical manufactured by an ordinary drug company.

gloryeyes
Mar. 4, 2008, 12:05 AM
Illegal sharps go in the same box as legal sharps, I'd imagine, and there are plenty of legal, injectable drugs around.

As for the rest of your questions, I can't help you. My boss plays by the rules, so I don't know :cool:

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 4, 2008, 12:22 AM
Ok, so it is safe to say that for the most part, vets are supplying the trainers or owners with these "illegal for showing" drugs. I would imagine that in some cases, a vet would be aware of the fact that a trainer was ordering up more ace than he/she needed to clip horses' ears for a month.

RiddleMeThis
Mar. 4, 2008, 12:41 AM
My farms vet gives us a large prescription of things like Bute. This is because it saves us money and the vet time. We dont have to call the vet out at every instance to get some. The vet knows that there are people who know when to give it. I would assume its like that at most barns.

Peggy
Mar. 4, 2008, 12:41 AM
Some vets are more forthcoming than others.

Some are drugs that are legal, but not for showing. Others are off-label uses of drugs that are used for something else or more commonly for another species.

But what really piques the Evil Chem Prof's curiosity is the possibility of a designer drug market. Are their modifications of other drugs that work better or different? Would it be possible to come up with something "natural" that might work, say endrophins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorphin)? It's wouldn't be that hard to hire a less-than-ethical chemist to make something, or even design something, especially if enough money is offered. In a world where people are whipping up illicit drugs in trailer parks and apartment buildings it's not a huge step to imagine them making drugs for horses.

Polydor
Mar. 4, 2008, 12:45 AM
Well yes vets are the ones ordering/prescribing the meds since really almost all of the meds are/can be used on a day to day basis like others have said. Most stables i know have a fairly large med cabinet just due to "stockpilling" it over the year. Horses needing a bit of that biut then not finishing the entire bottle or that type of thing. Most vets i have come across are pretty good about " oh you need some (fill in blank) here you go".

P.

quiet5
Mar. 4, 2008, 08:51 AM
Gee whiz! So did I--imagine my disappointment!:winkgrin:

Seriously, I'm not quite sure what the prob is--maybe there's some confusion over drug use in the ring whatsoever????:confused:

Cuz there are perfectly legal show drugs and a slew of illegal ones, as more exp COTHers have written above...





I totally thought this was going to be a thread on BNT and the illegal drugs they use themselves!;) The BNT that I know typically get their drugs from vets and I can think of several vets offhand that are known for getting you what you need. Of course no naming names.

LexInVA
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:08 AM
Many vets will give their clients a veritable buffet of drugs if they are an A-level client because they have a tendency to run horses a bit harder than others and they can certainly afford as much as their cash flow allows. Some will give you whatever you want when you ask for it as long as you pay in cash. Whether or not those drugs end up in the horse and not the riders is anyone's guess but it's not uncommon to find riders abusing the medication. I've found parents running around with multiple bottles of Ketamine at the local 4H shows. There are juniors who will run around the barns trying to inject or snort anything they can their hands on because they think it's rebelling against mommy and daddy. There are drug forums where junior riders exchange information on what works and how to do it properly.

DMK
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:09 AM
Ok, so it is safe to say that for the most part, vets are supplying the trainers or owners with these "illegal for showing" drugs. I would imagine that in some cases, a vet would be aware of the fact that a trainer was ordering up more ace than he/she needed to clip horses' ears for a month.

Most people who manage large strings of horses do not buy "per dosage" amounts. Said trainer/owner is not buying 2 cc's of ace (xylazine, rompum, whatever) at a time, they are buying the whole bottle. Hell, I only have 2 horses and even I buy ace by the bottle (then toss 3/4 of it out after it expires and is mostly not used - that is still cheaper than buying it by the dose). But having ace handy when I have a horse laid up and ready for turnout, or for whatever other appropriate usage, makes a lot more sense than me putting in a 35 mile round trip to get to my vet's office and pick it up, or paying an call charge to have her drop it off.

So once you are buying a drug in a multi-dose bottle, that probably will not expire for a year, how is the vet supposed to track what is "normal" usage? And yes, some people use more than one vet depending on where they are in the country, so even if you could (with a straight face) posit that a vet should be able to keep track of such things, what if the trainer/owner has 2 vets? How are both supposed to keep track of such things?

For any one of these scenarios, you can substitute reserpine, fluphen or any of the more recent stars in the USEF Hit Parade. They all have legitimate, acceptable use outside of showing and are valid treatment options. In addition, many vets advise their clients on how and when to administer said drugs for said treatment and leave it with the horse's owner/farm manager/etc. It's when you make the decision to use that drug in an illegal manner (showing while trace elements are still present) that a problem arises. But how the vet can and should police that, I can't fathom.

Now one hears about cocktails of substances that avoids detection, but that is another level of dishonesty altogether. But hey, the test catches up eventually.

MissintheSouth
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:13 AM
Ok, my answer was going to be "They grow it in the unused back pastures" but I don't think that was the question about drugs that you meant! ;)

Ravencrest_Camp
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:18 AM
Ok, so it is safe to say that for the most part, vets are supplying the trainers or owners with these "illegal for showing" drugs. I would imagine that in some cases, a vet would be aware of the fact that a trainer was ordering up more ace than he/she needed to clip horses' ears for a month.

Harry, I think you are on the wrong grassy knoll on this one. :yes:

c_expresso
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:22 AM
The sharp box may be intended for things like, Adequan or Legend shots. I am assuming it is legal to give these at shows...?

diKecnadnuS
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:24 AM
Many vets will give their clients a veritable buffet of drugs if they are an A-level client because they have a tendency to run horses a bit harder than others and they can certainly afford as much as their cash flow allows. Some will give you whatever you want when you ask for it as long as you pay in cash. Whether or not those drugs end up in the horse and not the riders is anyone's guess but it's not uncommon to find riders abusing the medication. I've found parents running around with multiple bottles of Ketamine at the local 4H shows. There are juniors who will run around the barns trying to inject or snort anything they can their hands on because they think it's rebelling against mommy and daddy. There are drug forums where junior riders exchange information on what works and how to do it properly.

Just out of curiosity... are you referring to juniors snorting and injecting the HORSES’ drugs?

c_expresso
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:29 AM
Just out of curiosity... are you referring to juniors snorting and injecting the HORSES’ drugs?

I am in high school... ketamine is very commonly used as a "recreational drug". Talk about STUPID!!!!!!!!!

LexInVA
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:34 AM
Just out of curiosity... are you referring to juniors snorting and injecting the HORSES’ drugs?


Affirmative.

Renn/aissance
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:38 AM
Just out of curiosity... are you referring to juniors snorting and injecting the HORSES’ drugs?

If you're surprised, you must have been home-schooled. :lol:

findeight
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:42 AM
Sharps containers are required by most states in many state run public areas...for one thing, DIABETICS need a place to safely dispose of their needles. Likewise there are numerous legal meds like the Legend and Adequan as well as those not legal to show on but used fairly routinely on non showing animals like Ace, Banamine or whatnot.

Far as the Dr Horsey Feelgood theories, vets don't track the usage of something like Reserpine when they sell a bottle to a 75 stall training barn for their layups. Some will use it in place of training until they get caught....as many did a few years ago when they developed more sophisticated testing protocol.

The more notorious examples have the accused stating they were told it would not test and at least one vet selling it tellling them that it was the latest thing from Europe and would not show up. Not all vets are above board any more then any other profession.

But the theory of heavy drug use based on the presence of Sharps containers does belong on the grassy knoll.

fish
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:42 AM
Ok, so it is safe to say that for the most part, vets are supplying the trainers or owners with these "illegal for showing" drugs. I would imagine that in some cases, a vet would be aware of the fact that a trainer was ordering up more ace than he/she needed to clip horses' ears for a month.

I'd say it would be very difficult for a vet to know such a thing. Some barns have a lot of horses who are routinely aced for procedures ranging from ear clipping to trailering while others rarely use the stuff at all and neither does so illegally.

eqsiu
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:48 AM
Just out of curiosity... are you referring to juniors snorting and injecting the HORSES’ drugs?

Do you know how many people have asked me for drugs once they found out I have horses? I probably could have sold them ivermectin at a hefty profit. And it's not limited to juniors.

Renn/aissance
Mar. 4, 2008, 09:51 AM
Do you know how many people have asked me for drugs once they found out I have horses? I probably could have sold them ivermectin at a hefty profit. And it's not limited to juniors.

Yep. I kept getting asked for bute and ketamine.

AKB
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:01 AM
Asking for bute and ketamine doesn't seem particularly sensible. Bute used to be used in humans, until it was discovered that other NSAID drugs, like Motrin, are just as effective and not as toxic. Just because something is toxic, doesn't mean it is more effective or causes a "high." Ketamine is not commonly used for sedating adults because it has some side effects like giving them bad dreams. I know that teenagers will try anything, just because it is forbidden, but taking those horse drugs doesn't sound like a sensible choice.

MissintheSouth
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:07 AM
Asking for bute and ketamine doesn't seem particularly sensible. Bute used to be used in humans, until it was discovered that other NSAID drugs, like Motrin, are just as effective and not as toxic. Just because something is toxic, doesn't mean it is more effective or causes a "high." Ketamine is not commonly used for sedating adults because it has some side effects like giving them bad dreams. I know that teenagers will try anything, just because it is forbidden, but taking those horse drugs doesn't sound like a sensible choice.

Ketamine is a common recreational drug ("Special K"), whose side affects are similar to PCP - it usually is ingested as a powder or injected as a liquid intramuscularly. I have never heard of bute as a recreational drug though, I don't think it would do much other than slowly shut down your kidneys.

fish
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:07 AM
Do you know how many people have asked me for drugs once they found out I have horses? I probably could have sold them ivermectin at a hefty profit. And it's not limited to juniors.

Ain't that the truth?! I was once approached by a guy at a gas station in Camden who insisted I should be able to supply him with steroids because I was pulling a trailer with show horses in it!

Nickelodian
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:08 AM
The sharps containers are essential for legal use of drugs. Dex, injectable bute, banamine, legend, adaquen, etc can all be used at a show, legally w/in the correct time frames. As a person who has a horse that breaks out into hives whenever introduced to a new stall, Dex is an essential part of our show routine.

eqsiu
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:09 AM
taking those horse drugs doesn't sound like a sensible choice.

People will try anything and claim they get high whether they feel anything or not. I had friends who snorted prozac and claimed it was great. I just :rolleyes: and drank another beer. They were feeling the booze and weed more than the prozac.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:11 AM
So let me take this one step further. With the "cocktails" that are being mixed, who are the mad scientists that blend one, two, or more medications together. Is it something practiced on a "crash test" horse, before being given to the high dollar intended recipient? Are vets experimenting, or is this something done out of desperation? What is the research being done behind developing these mixes? Who is aware of what "won't be detected by the testers" - Is there a leak in the system and someone on the inside is communicating as to what drugs may be masked, or is there a mad scientist behind a curtain who is one step ahead of the labs? Once a drug is found as to not show up, do trainers at the top really share this secret with each other, or do they keep it as a secret weapon in their arsenal?

findeight
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:14 AM
Trainers at any level who are cheating probably don't share.

The old grapevine is pretty active...but about as accurate as it ever was. Ask those who heard something would not test and got nailed.

There are some vets with shady reputations out there...but USEF has no jurisdiction for what happens off the property.

LexInVA
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:20 AM
So let me take this one step further. With the "cocktails" that are being mixed, who are the mad scientists that blend one, two, or more medications together. Is it something practiced on a "crash test" horse, before being given to the high dollar intended recipient? Are vets experimenting, or is this something done out of desperation? What is the research being done behind developing these mixes? Who is aware of what "won't be detected by the testers" - Is there a leak in the system and someone on the inside is communicating as to what drugs may be masked, or is there a mad scientist behind a curtain who is one step ahead of the labs? Once a drug is found as to not show up, do trainers at the top really share this secret with each other, or do they keep it as a secret weapon in their arsenal?

A lot of it comes from vets and trainers experimenting in the racing world and it trickles over to other sports. There are people in other countries like Dubai who are spending huge amounts of money to do their own testing and research to push horses as far as they can. The kind of enhancements you see in bad sci-fi movies movies is a bit over the top but that's the kind of direction they want to go in.

pds
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:21 AM
Most of the airport bathrooms I have been in with my travels have sharps containers. I don't think it is because we have an overabundance of junkies flying the friendly skies (yes I have been on flights to Amsterdam:D). Same with Sharps containers at horse shows. Just becasue they are there does not mean that they are filled with used syrnges that had illegal substances in them.

That being said, we all know that there are trainers and owners who push the limit and try to walk a fine line around the USEF rules. Sometimes they are caught. Money and greed drive it all.

As far as the OPs question about illegal drugs. Cocaine was and maybe still is a drug that I recall being given to horses. Not hard to figure out where a trainer or owner would get that. I read that snake venom is used by some race horse trainers. Have no idea where they would get that from or what exactly the benefit of giving it would be.

barnie
Mar. 4, 2008, 11:28 AM
I think you guys are confusing 2 drugs, but someone can correct me if I'm the one that's wrong....ketamine is an anti-inflammatory(nsaid?) and ketaphin is a tranq (specialK) often stolen from vet practices to sell on the street for $$$$$. They use it to tranq cats at the vets, I think.

eqsiu
Mar. 4, 2008, 11:32 AM
Ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic. It works the same way that PCP (angeldust) does. It binds to opioid receptors. It is not a steroid, but I think the NSAID you're thinking of is ketoprofen.

Vandy
Mar. 4, 2008, 11:34 AM
I think you guys are confusing 2 drugs, but someone can correct me if I'm the one that's wrong....ketamine is an anti-inflammatory(nsaid?) and ketaphin is a tranq (specialK) often stolen from vet practices to sell on the street for $$$$$. They use it to tranq cats at the vets, I think.You got it backwards and a little wrong...Ketoprofen is an NSAID, and Ketamine is an anesthetic (street slang "Special K") that is abused for its hallucinogenic properties. Ketamine is used for small animals, but can also be used for horses.

Oops, posted at the same time as Eqsiu ;)

DMK
Mar. 4, 2008, 12:34 PM
when it comes to cocktails of various drugs, one hears that some unethical trainers have unethical vets. Such vets may not actually be practicing, but let's say, hypothetically speaking, be the spouse of said unethical trainer's client.

As to how such things get tested and in more widespread use than one trainer's barn, I'm thinking you would have to be a lot closer to how actual unethical people behave, and apparently I'm not your source for that. But given the last round of widespread sanctions on reserpine/fluphen, I think it's safe to say the stuff got more use than in one trainer's barn.

Just a few notes - way back in 2000, there were no clear guidelines on herbal substances and pretty much everyone was using OTC stuff openly. It was not a secret. Then some people got a widely used OTC herbal from Europe. Widely used in that many of our international competitors were using it. But oops! it tested for metabolites of reserpine. Whatever your feelings on the matter, the people rounded up were totally upfront with the AHSA, and were not made to sit in the time out chair, just return prize monies. And as a result the then AHSA clarified the natural herbal issue once and for all.

Several years later, quite a few trainers found themselves on extended vacation due to positive tests for reserpine and fluphen. Since there is and has been a test for reserpine for a very long time and everyone knows it, and nobody here was claiming innocent use of herbal OTCs, another defense was called for. This was the rogue feed bucket defense. It didn't work if one is to judge by the sanctions. Also, since there was a test, it led a lot of people to speculate that the combination of rx used was specifically designed to a) use reserpine and b) beat the test. But nobody has ever been sanctioned for that as far as I know, so it remains speculation. Still, the fact that reserpine was always detectable sure raises a lot of questions why all of a sudden many horses were having it show up in the system. Makes a person go "hmmmmmmm".

For what it is worth, I do think some innocent people were caught up in this particular issue, because I noticed the recommended withdrawal times were lengthened from like 45 days to 90 days shortly after that. To me that suggests that some people who did legitimately use if for bringing a horse back after layup/injury, were caught up in a refined testing process. It just strains credulity that ALL of them were. But that's just MHO, YMMV. ;)

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 4, 2008, 12:57 PM
More random questions. Is there any concern to the residual damage that might be done to the horses liver or kidneys or heart? I am still intrigued by the combinations that are being given, and the test process. I cannot imagine one would stick a valuable horse with an unknown, untried, mix of medications without testing on another. Also, how the secret potions become public knowledge.

bf1
Mar. 4, 2008, 01:02 PM
Harry, are you researching for a book or what? Would make a good one wouldn't it!

DMK
Mar. 4, 2008, 01:08 PM
Those sort of seem like pretty basic no duh questions.

Are you concerned about long term damage? Gee, if you put a bunch of rx in a horse that has not had any long term FDA trials for that particular usage or frequency and/or dosage, what do YOU think?

Do you test it on an expensive top notch horse? Would YOU? Especially if the purpose was to make that horse a better performer than he currently is? I mean if you had more than 2 synapses...

As for how such things get spread around, I think the interweb tubes are proof enough that fools yammer on, and keeping one's mouth shut is the exception, not the rule.

poltroon
Mar. 4, 2008, 01:16 PM
More random questions. Is there any concern to the residual damage that might be done to the horses liver or kidneys or heart? I am still intrigued by the combinations that are being given, and the test process. I cannot imagine one would stick a valuable horse with an unknown, untried, mix of medications without testing on another. Also, how the secret potions become public knowledge.

Overuse of dex has been linked to all kinds of unfortunate outcomes (often in some rather expensive animals), which was a reason that USEF started paying more attention to it.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 4, 2008, 01:34 PM
Oh, I realize the questions may be infantile, but the more I think about it, the more unanswered questions I have. No one ever sits down and has a discussion, such as this one, about this topic. We have people who say "drugs are bad" and those who say "drugs are great" but the behind the scenes mentality and processes are never really made public. Those of you showing with BNT's are probably more exposed to this than us local types, and have greater insight, which you are indeed sharing, and one must admit, the topic is a little more interesting than the lining of a coat. At least from my perspective it is.

M. Owen
Mar. 4, 2008, 01:57 PM
Disclaimer, I have no first hand knowledge of using performance enhancing drugs in horses. However, I heard of one situation (from the owner of the horse) where someone bought a young horse that had been a winner in the hunters at very big shows, as in circuit champion, with a BNT. Brought the horse home and couldn't get that same quiet performance; the horse did well, but wasn't going the same. New owners contacted the former BNT and asked how the horse had been prepped at shows. The BNT said that part of the prep for that specific horse was Dex. The new owners chose not to go the Dex route, but that is one way the ideas for off label use of drugs can get passed along.

DMK
Mar. 4, 2008, 02:09 PM
Overuse of dex has been linked to all kinds of unfortunate outcomes (often in some rather expensive animals), which was a reason that USEF started paying more attention to it.

Yep, then promptly dropped all interest other than to enforce the 12 hour out rule!

Harry, there will always be people breaking the rules with new drugs. I'm pretty sure that there is a new Rx out there not testing as we speak. Not because I know anything or am in anyway connected these days (am so not), it's just the way it has always been and ever will be, and not just in this sport. But I'm guessing such things get leaked to people responsible for testing and things will be found out. Because that's as it ever has been and ever will be. And not just in this sport. But I don't think it is hugely widespread because there is also ever a history of being caught. I do think "us against the USEF federation" sentiments aside, people don't LIKE being beat by people using an illegal edge. Tales will be told. E-mails will be sent. Especially if you can't get your hand on some of that stuff yourself. :rolleyes:

It's also understood there is a lot of stuff that helps without being strictly illegal, but could be harmful, like calcium. Yes, calcium is not a very safe drug to give IV, but there is a belief it acts as calming agents. And yes, the intent is clearly to calm the horse, but how do you test for a vitamin? How do you prove intent? You don't, so it keeps on keeping on.

And there are plenty of ways within the current drug rules to stack many NSAIDs, so that along with dex, legend and adequan, not to mention shock wave therapy, could in the hands of an unethical person, get a less than sound horse to the ring. (But even taking the full legal options, I can't see it getting a lame horse to the ring.) And if you need to tire the horse out, LTD is still the drug of choice and legal in 50 states. So there are plenty of ways to work within the system and not put yourself in the position of being suspended. I'll totally plead the 5th on how this works out for the horse, but it is what it is.

Still I think the vast majority of people work within the rules and most of them do put the horse's interests front and center. There is certainly disagreement on what "best interests" might be (discussions about NSAIDs and showing, no turnout, dex versus no dex and on and on), but I believe for the most part, intent is reasonable.

eqsiu
Mar. 4, 2008, 02:13 PM
Would you really want a horse that needed dex to show? I mean, it's a pretty big gun anti-inflammatory. If a horse needed it to stay sound for showing to me that would indicate that the horse needed retirement or a lighter duty job. If you were using it to treat an injury, wouldn't you refrain from showing until the injury was healed? I know it's legal to use, but it seems like you'd be asking for trouble in the long run.

DMK
Mar. 4, 2008, 02:16 PM
it isn't used as an anti-inflammatory. There's a long held belief that it calms a horse down. The old saying was it was sort of like "taking a benadryl" - made you sleepy. Anything else it does is pretty much secondary to that perceived or real benefit.

Also, it's fairly widespread in use. For someone to not know that was a potential part of a horse's program kind of indicates the trainer (owner?) hadn't really been around the block even once...

(note - I'm not saying it is good, it's just not a secret or uncommon)

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 4, 2008, 02:17 PM
I do not wish to come off as sounding anti-medication. I think it is far better for a dignified old show horse to get some help, and remain useful jumping low fences and teaching a grateful child/adult the ropes, rather than being put into a school string, or a hack line. Also, these horses that are used to be pampered day in day out sometimes do not adapt well to 24/7 turnout with no attention. My curiosity only involves the the behind the scenes mentality and practices, particularly in the scientific realm. I think all in all, this discussion has been great. And look at the bright side. It has taken some of the heat off Brianne!

eqsiu
Mar. 4, 2008, 02:19 PM
it isn't used as an anti-inflammatory. There's a long held belief that it calms a horse down. The old saying was it was sort of like "taking a benadryl" - made you sleepy. Anything else it does is pretty much secondary to that perceived or real benefit.

Hm. I didn't know that. Is tryptophan legal? It was not on the forbidden list. I guess I am naive in thinking that most drugs are used for their known clinical effect, even if that effect is akin to cheating.

HiddenAcres
Mar. 4, 2008, 02:22 PM
I've always been naive about drugs in horses. Brought up to do the long work, not the short cuts, so no drugs.

I was stunned when Horsey went to BNT and the first thing they handed me was the drug list! What the heck's a "Pink Lady"?

As I was never charged for anything, I don't think my horse was drugged. They were told to turn him out more, not drug him. But who knows what people do when you're not there - no matter how much you're paying?

It was clear that they had no hesitancy about drugging horses as a training device - more than a little ace on a green bean. I know this wasn't the norm with the people this BNT trained with as a kid. Must have picked it up in the Big Time with those guys who go to Europe to show, train,buy. His career just gets bigger and better (more wins, more $$$)and boy can he ride. But....

I think the "cocktails" are much more common than anyone wants to know.

DMK
Mar. 4, 2008, 02:28 PM
If I was a betting person, pink lady is some variation on red shot, aka B-1 and calcium.

But rated shows aside, I think there is an extraordinary level of denial about how much, excessive NSAIDS, tranq and sedative are used at local shows. And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against schooling a horse at a local show with some ace to get him used to the show environment without getting me and 5 other people in the schooling ring killed. But that's not the same thing as hitting the horse with 2 grams of but 4 hours out or a rompum cocktail so Annie Amateur can win her 2'6 hunter class. But I certainly have seen it.

eqsiu
Mar. 4, 2008, 02:29 PM
I think it is far better for a dignified old show horse to get some help, and remain useful jumping low fences and teaching a grateful child/adult the ropes, rather than being put into a school string, or a hack line.

I agree. I think of that as "light use retirement." The old morgan I first learned to ride in stayed in work until he had to be euthanized (at 43!) because he did not handle pasture life well at all. But his work load was reduced over the years until at the end he was only doing walk/trot lessons for small kids and disabled riders. I was referring to using drugs to keep horses at the top. That is unfair to a good horse. The damage being done to their bodies in order to keep them competitive ultimately shortens their life (both useful and total).

Giddy-up
Mar. 4, 2008, 02:47 PM
This was the rogue feed bucket defense.

:lol::lol: Don't you just hate when the feed tubs get mixed up?? That must have been what happened. Duh. :yes:

Eventer13
Mar. 4, 2008, 02:55 PM
Someone please tell me all this drugging is the exception rather than the rule. If I ever caught a trainer drugging my horse to enhance performance my horse would be outta there quick. If a trainer cant get a good performance out of a horse without resorting to drugs, then 1) trainer sucks 2) horse has something physically wrong or 3) horse needs a job change.

Am I the only one who's infuriated by all this? Do these people really just see a horse as a machine?

I promise, I'm not as naive as I might sound, but this whole topic really makes me disillusioned with the top "trainers" in the horse world. Just seems like there are a lot of dishonest people, who do this for the $ rather than the love of the horse.

And I don't mean to bash the people who use ace at the horse's first show, but those that use a drug before every ride and cant win without it. Its just so unsporting.

And I guess I kind of equate the exchange of drug cocktails to what some of the Tennessee Walking Horse people do when they exchange soring agents. I know there's a big difference, but drugging a horse in order to win certainly doesnt have the animal's best interest in mind.

OK, rant over.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 4, 2008, 02:58 PM
I think that the use of performance enhancing substances is quite likely a "norm" rather than an exception, particularly at the upper echelons. Everyone is looking for any viable edge they can find. I wonder if the practice is widespread across all disciplines, or if it is just a hunter/jumper phenomena.

Renn/aissance
Mar. 4, 2008, 03:13 PM
Ketamine is a common recreational drug ("Special K"), whose side affects are similar to PCP - it usually is ingested as a powder or injected as a liquid intramuscularly. I have never heard of bute as a recreational drug though, I don't think it would do much other than slowly shut down your kidneys.

Exactly. I don't know why they asked for bute. Maybe because it was something I mentioned in passing- or because there was a can of the powder in my car and maybe they thought I had MSM?

Special K is often used as a date rape drug.

Alibhai's Alibar
Mar. 4, 2008, 03:21 PM
I read that snake venom is used by some race horse trainers. Have no idea where they would get that from or what exactly the benefit of giving it would be.

It is said to deaden sensation in a joint or a nerve.

Google horse racing and snake or cobra venom and you'll find lots of interesting articles.

DMK
Mar. 4, 2008, 03:25 PM
Someone please tell me all this drugging is the exception rather than the rule. If I ever caught a trainer drugging my horse to enhance performance my horse would be outta there quick. If a trainer cant get a good performance out of a horse without resorting to drugs, then 1) trainer sucks 2) horse has something physically wrong or 3) horse needs a job change.

THIS is the sort of gross generalization that can lead to serious trainwrecks on the interweb tubes.

In my mind you have in USEF (non-FEI competitions) three categories of "performance enhancing" drugs. (Technically speaking, FEI has similar rules, just much further withdrawal times than USEF). And just to clarify, all non FEI sanctioned eventing, dressage and h/j events under USEF follow the same drug rules.

#1 is legal, acceptable and widely used things like injecting joints, oral supps like conquer and cosequin, adequan, legend, even things like mesotherapy, and using serapin/steroids with acupuncture. Also includes ranitidine and omeprazole. All pretty much the norm for any top level horse and very common in every competitive animal.

#2 is legal amounts of certain drugs, most commonly NSAIDs like bute, banamine, surpass, equioxx, etc. and other rx such as robaxin and even dex. Using X amount Y hours out is legal.

#3 is the illegal use of drugs, either too much/too early of legal substances defined in #2 above, or using drugs that are just not legal anyway, anyhow, anywhere like reserpine or fluphen.

So to clarify, was it your specific intent to condemn all people acting under #1 and #2, because from a reading point of view, that is exactly what you did.

Sing Mia Song
Mar. 4, 2008, 03:33 PM
Harry, regarding your question about cocktails, many of these get dreamed up in clinical practice and passed around on veterinary boards like VIN (Veterinary Information Network). It's not as nefarious as that sounds--for instance, vets will frequently exchange their anesthestic protocols looking for a combination that maximizes the analgesic effects without causing cardiac or respiratory effects. So it has a legitimate use. Similarly, an NSAID stacking protocol was probably dreamed up by a veterinarian who had a patient that he/she wanted to keep pain free for therapeutic purposes, not so it could go out and be the World Champion Adult Long Stirrup Horse of the Year.

Now, regarding trainers' access to such medications, it is also not unheard of for a barn to utilize more than one veterinary practice, particularly in a barn where boarders are allowed to use the vet of their choice. So, BNT may not be buying an alarming amount of a drug from one vet, but when you add up the purchases from vets 2 and 3, it may be enough to knock out several herds of elephants. :eek:

SGray
Mar. 4, 2008, 03:40 PM
THIS is the sort of gross generalization that can lead to serious trainwrecks on the interweb tubes.

In my mind you have in USEF (non-FEI competitions) three categories of "performance enhancing" drugs. (Technically speaking, FEI has similar rules, just much further withdrawal times than USEF). And just to clarify, all non FEI sanctioned eventing, dressage and h/j events under USEF follow the same drug rules.

#1 is legal, acceptable and widely used things like injecting joints, oral supps like conquer and cosequin, adequan, legend, even things like mesotherapy, and using serapin/steroids with acupuncture. Also includes ranitidine and omeprazole. All pretty much the norm for any top level horse and very common in every competitive animal.

#2 is legal amounts of certain drugs, most commonly NSAIDs like bute, banamine, surpass, equioxx, etc. and other rx such as robaxin and even dex. Using X amount Y hours out is legal.

#3 is the illegal use of drugs, either too much/too early of legal substances defined in #2 above, or using drugs that are just not legal anyway, anyhow, anywhere like reserpine or fluphen.

So to clarify, was it your specific intent to condemn all people acting under #1 and #2, because from a reading point of view, that is exactly what you did.


I'd condemn all trainers that used any drug on my horse without my knowledge and consent

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 4, 2008, 03:45 PM
Sing, that is a good answer. Now.....in your opinion, and I know you have experience at the racetrack at the show ring, and in the doctor's office as well; does the medical profession feel any concerns about the number of people that may be out there devising their own treatment/medication protocols? I have seen youngsters giving animals injections (not that one needs to be a septegenarian to do this), but it concerns me, I know that thirty years ago we were all expected to know the parts of the horse, and now we get a child who may not know a stifle from a rifle, but they know the sweet spot to give a needle. I also think that many trainers relegate these duties to "staff" so they can feign "the groom gave the animal the wrong dose".

horsegirl888
Mar. 4, 2008, 04:13 PM
Would you really want a horse that needed dex to show? I mean, it's a pretty big gun anti-inflammatory. If a horse needed it to stay sound for showing to me that would indicate that the horse needed retirement or a lighter duty job. If you were using it to treat an injury, wouldn't you refrain from showing until the injury was healed? I know it's legal to use, but it seems like you'd be asking for trouble in the long run.
Dexamethasone (dex) is used (legitimately) as an antihistamine steroid, I believe. My mare had a persistent case of hives that only cleared up with a dex shot from the veterinarian (and no, I was not showing at the time, and all that happened and was intended to happen is the hives went away).

I absolutely don't agree with drugging to get an unfair edge in the showring, but I know that it is happening. As far as humans using horse drugs, I don't have trouble believing it- pretty similar to someone getting high off their parent's prescription drugs. It's all about availability. Sad though, really, all of it.

eqsiu
Mar. 4, 2008, 04:23 PM
Dexamethasone is a glucocorticoid. That makes it a steroidal anti-inflammatory, but just like prednisone it has antihistamine properties. I guess I wouldn't figure on a horse needing an antihistamine regularly at shows. Some very allergic horses might be put on it, but I doubt that its abuse in the horse world has much to do with hives. ;)

Eventer13
Mar. 4, 2008, 04:31 PM
THIS is the sort of gross generalization that can lead to serious trainwrecks on the interweb tubes.

In my mind you have in USEF (non-FEI competitions) three categories of "performance enhancing" drugs. (Technically speaking, FEI has similar rules, just much further withdrawal times than USEF). And just to clarify, all non FEI sanctioned eventing, dressage and h/j events under USEF follow the same drug rules.

#1 is legal, acceptable and widely used things like injecting joints, oral supps like conquer and cosequin, adequan, legend, even things like mesotherapy, and using serapin/steroids with acupuncture. Also includes ranitidine and omeprazole. All pretty much the norm for any top level horse and very common in every competitive animal.

#2 is legal amounts of certain drugs, most commonly NSAIDs like bute, banamine, surpass, equioxx, etc. and other rx such as robaxin and even dex. Using X amount Y hours out is legal.

#3 is the illegal use of drugs, either too much/too early of legal substances defined in #2 above, or using drugs that are just not legal anyway, anyhow, anywhere like reserpine or fluphen.

So to clarify, was it your specific intent to condemn all people acting under #1 and #2, because from a reading point of view, that is exactly what you did.

No, sorry, should have clarified... I see nothing wrong with the first two. I meant to specifically refer to drugs that are given to affect temperament and make the horse easier to ride/train.

I guess I was thinking of the general use of the phrase "drugging the horse"-usually means to tranq him, rather than give him a shot of legend or a gram of bute. But yes, I understand the first two categories fall under the term "drug."

This thread just makes it sound like there are many BNTs who have no qualms in giving a horse a cocktail to calm the horse, if that's what it takes to win.

horsegirl888
Mar. 4, 2008, 05:07 PM
Eqsiu- thanks for the clarification. Yes, the mare only needed it once, and not many horses will need that at every show. Some do, as a previous poster mentioned, but I think most of us agree that dex is generally not used as a precaution against hives at every show!

Drugs are no substitute for training.

Anselcat
Mar. 4, 2008, 05:24 PM
does the medical profession feel any concerns about the number of people that may be out there devising their own treatment/medication protocols?

I imagine that most people in the medical/veterinary profession do have concerns, versus the minority who actively engage in it for un-ethical purposes.

But are you suggesting it is the medical/veterinary profession's duty to somehow prevent this? By tighter control of prescription drugs and/or syringes? Not sure how that would go over with the majority of horseowners who don't want to have a farm call visit every time they need to give bute or banamine.

Wanderluster
Mar. 4, 2008, 05:30 PM
I was once told by a clinician that putting a horse on thyroid medication was a way to get them quiet. Apparently it stops the horses natural thyroid production and then before the event you pull them off. Low thyroid = quiet horse and is not testable. I told him that I didn't need to win THAT badly. :no:

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 4, 2008, 05:40 PM
NO, by all means I am not implying that it is the job of veterinarians to police this. All I am trying to do is discuss this topic, and be able to see some of the sides of the equation that I am not familiar with. The veterinarians are certainly not in a position to police anything.

lauriep
Mar. 4, 2008, 05:45 PM
Many of the "ideas" that float around come from Europe. Look where we buy most of our horses. They are usually several steps ahead of us in the latest "what won't test" contest. And trainers also talk among themselves, passing the info along. And there are also some really stupid, know it alls out there who think nothing of coming up with their own uses for the drugs in their meds box.

Amber_M
Mar. 4, 2008, 06:17 PM
People will try anything and claim they get high whether they feel anything or not. I had friends who snorted prozac and claimed it was great. I just :rolleyes: and drank another beer. They were feeling the booze and weed more than the prozac.


What they were PROBABLY feeling was an intense burning sensation in their nostrils that was almost to the point of UNBEARABLE.

My dog takes this stuff and I have to take it out of the capsule and mix with water. I got it in my eye accidentally one time and was very very unhappy for almost 6 hours.

wtywmn
Mar. 4, 2008, 06:57 PM
DMK, I beg to differ on the FEI. They currently have a zero tollerance. There is no time line which is acceptable. It has been talked about trying to open that up, but so far no.

coriander
Mar. 4, 2008, 07:09 PM
Dexamethasone is a glucocorticoid. That makes it a steroidal anti-inflammatory, but just like prednisone it has antihistamine properties. ... I doubt that its abuse in the horse world has much to do with hives. ;)

It has much to do with its documented effect of to keep the veterans working who might otherwise be slightly sore under the rigors of competition and as much or more to do with its reputed effect of making horses quiet.

DMK
Mar. 4, 2008, 07:33 PM
DMK, I beg to differ on the FEI. They currently have a zero tollerance. There is no time line which is acceptable. It has been talked about trying to open that up, but so far no.

No, that is not entirely true. Those horses DO get NSAIDS, legend, adequan, joints injected, etc. It is just that the withdrawal times are far more extended, and yes in the case of NSAIDs, etc., there are no trace levels left in the system (or there damn well better not be!) But in the general sense of giving performance enhancing drugs, you can't reasonably say there is no performance enhancing impact to giving Legend, adequan and injecting joints even if it is done further out than one might do it for a USEF governed event. (And of course there are some people doing shockwave therapy very close to show time because it does have a painkilling effect, but of course it isn't a drug, but that's another tale for another time).

ticktock
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:12 PM
I have a few things to add to this conversation. I used to work for a big barn, and giving the "performance enhancing" drugs were a huge part of my job. I hated it. I hated it so much. I hated what it did to the horses and nobody else cared. I tried to spare them as much as I could but it wasn't always easy because if they were not good it was always my fault.

DMK is correct in saying that FEI horses are allowed to get certain things such as adequan and legend. There are also several herbal anti-inflammatory injectable drugs that do not test. However, there are no needles and syringes allowed in an FEI area at anytime. So grooms are forced to be a little bit sneaky with these things, which I personally think is uneccessary because they are in no way harming the horses, they are simply helping them stay comfortable. These are hard working animals that cannot even have a simple aspirin after they have jumped a round or two of five foot jumps three times in a week. Not fair to the horses. There are other topical options, however these do not do the same thing.

Whoever asked the question about tryptophan, it is not a legal drug but everyone gets away with using it because it does not test. And whoever said that vets and trainers are getting the good stuff from Europe, they are also 100% correct.

As for the dex, I hate that more than anything. I have seen show horses who have lived the majority of their lives on low doses of dex because they are constantly showing week after week, year after year. Some of them founder because of this. Others wait until they retire and then they founder from the withdrawl. It is very sad.

I do believe that there is a time and place for certain drugs, but they must be used appropriately and in moderation. Unfortunately, most of the horses at the top levels are showing CONSTANTLY and there is almost no consideration of the fact that they are getting pumped with so many drugs so often. It is all about that blue ribbon. And unfortunately and sadly this is more the rule than the exception.

I am ok with a little bute or banamine in moderation. I am also ok with a little bit of robaxin. Hell I probably take more robaxin than I give to the horses. But as far as the quieting drugs go, I don't really want a horse in my barn that has to be over-medicated and over-prepared just so that it can canter around the ring with its head on the ground. I don't care how brilliant its jump might be. Those things are just not fair to the animals and perhaps they need a different job.

Getting off my soapbox now.

Lauren!
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:20 PM
I've found parents running around with multiple bottles of Ketamine at the local 4H shows. There are juniors who will run around the barns trying to inject or snort anything they can their hands on because they think it's rebelling against mommy and daddy. There are drug forums where junior riders exchange information on what works and how to do it properly.

I'm not doubting this happens, but I find it hard to believe people have multiple botles of Ketamine that were obtained legally. I've worked in veterinary and human hosptials and Ketamine is definately a controlled substance. It needs to be signed out and accounted for, and kept locked up. It's commonly used in animals and children, rarely in adults with some exceptions (ie. asthmatics) because of possible side effects. I have never seen it used on horses outside of a hospital. It's also an (illegal) street drug, but I'd imagine it's seldom (if ever) obtained legally.



Someone please tell me all this drugging is the exception rather than the rule. If I ever caught a trainer drugging my horse to enhance performance my horse would be outta there quick.

I agree :yes: I can't imagine it's hard to avoid... you just have to pay attention, know your horse, know what your paying for and vote with your feet and your wallet if you disapprove of how things are being done. I have a long list of things I won't tolerate being done with my horses (drugging, poling, draw reins, excessive lunging, just to name a few) which other people may tolerate or find to be acceptable... but I don't, therefore they will not be done on my horses. No, I'm not the Long Stirrup Champion of the Year, but I manage to get along just fine :lol:

slainte!
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:20 PM
But those FEI people all know what doesn't test and what does!

On the Subject of "BNT and drugging"..... I think this is a difficult topic to debate because the governing body of our sport ALLOWS the use of all these drugs for the USEF rated classes. There's nothing illegal about giving a jumper a shot of B-12, or ketaphen... or a hunter magnesium, or dex, or robaxin..... arquel, traumeel.... the list goes on and on and on..... Now whether you personally have an issue with this is a whole other story! It's something that you'd need to debate with USEF officials.......

ticktock
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:26 PM
Magnesium scares me more than any other drug. You can kill a horse so quickly with that crap. Taumeel doesn't bother me. There is also a time and a place for Ketophen.

Lauren!
Mar. 4, 2008, 10:40 PM
Ketoprophen and Ketamine are totally different substances (just FYI, in case anyone is getting them mixed up). Ketoprophen is an Rx NSAID. Ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic, a controlled substance (when used legally) and a commonly abused illegal/street drug.

Sing Mia Song
Mar. 4, 2008, 11:11 PM
Sing, that is a good answer. Now.....in your opinion, and I know you have experience at the racetrack at the show ring, and in the doctor's office as well; does the medical profession feel any concerns about the number of people that may be out there devising their own treatment/medication protocols?

Some of them are completely unaware, and some are very concerned. One of the area equine veterinary practices once tried to stop dispensing injectables. It didn't go over well. At all. And in the case of, say, banamine, I agree.

On the other end of the spectrum, another area veterinarian routinely dispenses Dormosedan, a drug that a) provides a pretty deep sedation; and b) has some really potent side effects, especially if used in horses with certain heart conditions (i.e. atrial fibrillation). I was boarding in a barn where the BM sedated my horse with Dormosedan for shoeing, and boy, was I pissed to hear about that. The horse left the barn the next day.

Mos equine veterinarians I know do not keep up with what is "legal" for competition. They have enough to do maintaining clinical knowledge without knowing what the rules are for every equestrian governing body under the sun.

Now, at the racetrack, it is illegal for anyone other than the veterinarian to possess injectables, syringes and needles, whether for Adequan, Legend, or whatever. Everything must be administered by the veterinarian. I've known equine vets who quit the track because they felt more like a pharmacist than a diagnostician--their days were spent criss-crossing the backstretch giving bleeder medications and bute. So that's the other side of the spectrum.

Interestingly, I just found out that Prolixin (fluphenazine) is occasionally used in racehorses who are anxious at the track. I had always assumed that it would be counter-intuitive to use it in a racehorse, but apparently not. I learn something new every day. ;)

little miss
Mar. 5, 2008, 05:46 AM
Magnesium scares me more than any other drug. You can kill a horse so quickly with that crap. Taumeel doesn't bother me. There is also a time and a place for Ketophen.

Hu? Magnesium? In powder or injectable (is that possible)? What is wrong with it and what does it do for the horse? They sell that at farmvet OTC.

ticktock
Mar. 5, 2008, 07:44 AM
Injectable. It slows a horses heart rate down and if you give it too fast, it could drop a horse in a second. I have heard of it happening a few times, and actually a good friend of mine saw a BNR kill a horse at indoors one year giving it magnesium.

War Admiral
Mar. 5, 2008, 07:58 AM
I think that the use of performance enhancing substances is quite likely a "norm" rather than an exception, particularly at the upper echelons. Everyone is looking for any viable edge they can find. I wonder if the practice is widespread across all disciplines, or if it is just a hunter/jumper phenomena.

No, very prevalent in saddle seat as well. At ALL levels.

I'm with DMK though, you can see it at the local nonrateds too provided you know what to look for. I remember working as gate crew at a local show (I won't say which discipline - take your pick) with a BUNCH of experienced horsepersons, and there was one beginner class in particular where we estimated that every horse except one was pretty much drugged to the gills. It was very sad.

I have definitely been in barns, both H/J and saddle seat, that used a lot of drugs. :( The thing is, if you are just lessoning there and are not there all the time, it can be very difficult to figure out whether the horses are is getting something they shouldn't. When I was trying out saddle seat barns looking for a lesson program, I always tried to slip off for a few minutes "to use the bathroom" and try to locate the drugs cabinet... Another good technique is to drop by on "closed days" to watch them school the horses... Can be very edifying indeed if you get my drift...

little miss
Mar. 5, 2008, 08:44 AM
Injectable. It slows a horses heart rate down and if you give it too fast, it could drop a horse in a second. I have heard of it happening a few times, and actually a good friend of mine saw a BNR kill a horse at indoors one year giving it magnesium.

Gee thanks, I had no idea! I was suggeted to give the powerder to a nervous horse and didn't think anything of it because you don't need a vet to buy it. Does the powder also slow down the heart rate? How would this be different then say dromosydane (sp?) becuase I understand that also must slow down the heart, since they start sweating,etc...

DMK
Mar. 5, 2008, 09:03 AM
well the key difference is dormosedan is testable, whereas magnesium is a substance that occurs naturally in the body (along with tryptophan), so that presents difficulty in proving a horse was "drugged". Actually I think they have similar issues in bikers with testosterone and EPO. Who's to say what your naturally occurring levels are and who is to say what was added?

Highflyer
Mar. 5, 2008, 10:10 AM
Just out of curiosity, why would a vet ever dispense ketamine? Do you call them up and say, "Well I was thinking of castrating some of the colts myself this year to save money, can you drop off something to knock them out next time you're in the neighborhood?"

I've had vets dispense very small amounts of torbogesic, mixed with dormosedan, for use when the dentist comes to pull wolf teeth, but I can't really think of a reason why anyone should ever need a bottle of either torbogesic or ketamine--and let's face it, someone who can afford to show in the As can afford to have the vet come out and give a shot if necessary.

I'm not saying it's possible to monitor bute or banamine or even ace, but it's absolutely ridiculous to say that vets shouldn't be held responsible for monitoring controlled drugs.

Sing Mia Song
Mar. 5, 2008, 10:58 AM
You're right, Highflyer. Ketamine is a controlled substance. I'm thinking the earlier reference was either a mix-up with Ketoprofen, or the Ketamine was obtained through nefarious means.

eqsiu
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:14 AM
I'm not saying it's possible to monitor bute or banamine or even ace, but it's absolutely ridiculous to say that vets shouldn't be held responsible for monitoring controlled drugs.

I think those are really the only abusable drugs that a barn needs on hand. If a horse is prescribed something, then yes, the owner needs a supply to give. But the common drugs are ace, bute, and banamine. When I worked on a breeding farm we had oxytocin, regumate, HCG and estrumate as well. But when we needed to drug the donkey for trimming I drove to the vet to get dormosedan. I never would have asked for a supply. We didn't need it that often.

findeight
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:22 AM
Harry, if anything the H/J field is a little less because you don't want them falling over in midair over an oxer or triple bar. Or more complicated finding something that quiets them while allowing high performance.

I started in Western and Arabian, done the QH, Paint and been around the ASB and the racetrack. It's out there big time but, IMO, the majority are playing by the rules. The minority get the ink and the vacations.

Then there are the non drug variations that are worse, like bleeding/hanging the head up/witholding food and water.

And those locals:eek:. Wow. Can understand a little Ace for a kid's horse on a cold, windy day (not to say condone the practice but understand) but the stacked NSAIDS to get a cripple in the ring for 20 classes and overdoses of concoctions that make their eyes roll back? The winning barn that NEVER sets foot in the rated rings despite having apparently amazingly well trained animals that never misbehave?

Yeah...H/J has no corner on the market and saying it centers on the BN set is just wrong.

LexInVA
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:48 AM
You're right, Highflyer. Ketamine is a controlled substance. I'm thinking the earlier reference was either a mix-up with Ketoprofen, or the Ketamine was obtained through nefarious means.

They were definitely Ketamine. I examined one of the bottles myself because they were dumb enough to leave the toolbox with the syringes and other medical stuff laying around. The parents in question have a lot of money due to their construction business which made them VERY wealthy during the urbanization of the area so it's not hard for them to get whatever they want when they want it, especially when you have a group of self-titled equestrians who refuse to play by the rules because they think they are better than everyone else. The rather unsettling fact of all this is that these are the parents who overhorsed their daughters with expensive (and dangerously large) horses yet neither one of the children has EVER competed outside of the 4H (which is a very good thing given their lack of discipline, talent, and skill) and the daughters both fancy themselves as horse trainers and instructors like many of their neighbors. They even have an address in Middleburg now though they still reside in Fairfax Station most of the time.

RockinHorse
Mar. 5, 2008, 11:56 AM
I remember working as gate crew at a local show (I won't say which discipline - take your pick) with a BUNCH of experienced horsepersons, and there was one beginner class in particular where we estimated that every horse except one was pretty much drugged to the gills. It was very sad.



While I agree that drugging goes on, I don't think it is always as easy to see as people think. If I put a beginner on one of my TBs and you watched him go around you would think he is drugged because he is so slow and careful he looks like he is sleep walking. I know of quite a few horses like this and they are all very popular and frequently borrowed for beginners to show.

Highflyer
Mar. 5, 2008, 12:10 PM
They were definitely Ketamine. I examined one of the bottles myself because they were dumb enough to leave the toolbox with the syringes and other medical stuff laying around. The parents in question have a lot of money due to their construction business which made them VERY wealthy during the urbanization of the area so it's not hard for them to get whatever they want when they want it, especially when you have a group of self-titled equestrians who refuse to play by the rules because they think they are better than everyone else. The rather unsettling fact of all this is that these are the parents who overhorsed their daughters with expensive (and dangerously large) horses yet neither one of the children has EVER competed outside of the 4H (which is a very good thing given their lack of discipline, talent, and skill) and the daughters both fancy themselves as horse trainers and instructors like many of their neighbors. They even have an address in Middleburg now though they still reside in Fairfax Station most of the time.

That? Is the kind of thing vets should lose their licenses for, IMHO.

LexInVA
Mar. 5, 2008, 12:34 PM
That? Is the kind of thing vets should lose their licenses for, IMHO.

Unfortunately, I didn't have the thought in my head to do more than a cursory inspection of the bottle and write down anything that would have helped determine where exactly it was obtained. They might not even have gotten it from a vet. There are a lot of human doctors around here who have access to the stuff and many of them work out of home offices in and around the suburban neighborhoods. It's possible one of their doctor neighbors (they reside in a very wealthy neighborhood with doctors and executives) just gave it to them like giving out a cup of sugar or it was stolen when their company was doing work on an office. Then you also have the unfortunate possibility that some vet gave it to them in exchange for money or services. Sadly, we have many such people in the area who do things that way and the police really don't care about any of it.

Sing Mia Song
Mar. 5, 2008, 12:48 PM
Unfortunately, I didn't have the thought in my head to do more than a cursory inspection of the bottle and write down anything that would have helped determine where exactly it was obtained. They might not even have gotten it from a vet. There are a lot of human doctors around here who have access to the stuff and many of them work out of home offices in and around the suburban neighborhoods. It's possible one of their doctor neighbors (they reside in a very wealthy neighborhood with doctors and executives) just gave it to them like giving out a cup of sugar or it was stolen when their company was doing work on an office. Then you also have the unfortunate possibility that some vet gave it to them in exchange for money or services. Sadly, we have many such people in the area who do things that way and the police really don't care about any of it.

No way. Ketamine is for surgical anesthesia. Even for an anesthesiologist to obtain it for a patient, he/she has to order the dose up from the hospital pharmacy. Very tightly controlled.

They were probably buying it off the internet or from overseas. Even more dangerous because what's on the label may not be what is in the bottle. Or it might be at a radically different concentration.

silver2
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:35 PM
I personally know of two vets who were busted for suppling ketamine. One was apparently prescribing quite a bit of it to himself too ;) His office was located just down the road from my house and got raided by some federal agents in the middle of the week: it was quite the scandal. This was over 10 years ago so its possible they have cracked down on the tracking since then.

To answer your question Harry: I've always had the impression that the way these drugs are applied has more to do with superstition and hearsay than any secret testing program involving rogue scientists. You are dealing with people who have barely a high school education for the most part. Not being strong in physiology, biochemistry or statistical analysis, they tend to rely heavily on so-and-so who just got back from Europe or the Worlds telling them about some new miracle drug. I've seen or heard of people doing the dumbest shit, and to really expensive horses too. I showed up one day to ride a MiniPrix A/O horse (at home) and it had a fresh injection site in its neck. Having a policy of not getting on a horse unless I know what they just injected it with I asked the BM. She told me they had heard about this new hormonal combo that would make the horses less marish! So they were trying it out on this $100K horse. Luckily it was just prostaglandin :lol:

LexInVA
Mar. 5, 2008, 01:57 PM
No way. Ketamine is for surgical anesthesia. Even for an anesthesiologist to obtain it for a patient, he/she has to order the dose up from the hospital pharmacy. Very tightly controlled.

They were probably buying it off the internet or from overseas. Even more dangerous because what's on the label may not be what is in the bottle. Or it might be at a radically different concentration.

This actually happened shortly before Ketamine was placed on the third schedule of controlled substances in the summer of 99 (I was a teenager back then) and became heavily regulated. I really had no idea what it was exactly until I looked it up later that evening. Back then (and even now) it really wasn't difficult to get whatever you wanted if you knew where to look and drug traffic exploded here in the late 80's and 90's due to the boom of illegal immigrants that came for the abundance of construction work during the urbanization of the area which also came with a huge increase in gang activity involving the smuggling of goods and people into the area. In the mid 90's we also had a big demand for hallucinogens from the rave scene that fueled a short-lived boom in the drug trade in the mid-90's after the SE DC kingpins were put out of business by the DEA. There was one white bread suburbanite soccer playing HS student who essentially became a millionaire from the drug trade in the 90's before other local dealers decided to take him out and get his cut. I remember a group of kids who bought a new house up in McLean (McMansion Land) and they got busted because the tax reports they were filing were red flagged by the IRS because they were claiming significantly low incomes as "florists" yet they all lived in a McMansion together and drove expensive luxury vehicles.

SEPowell
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:20 PM
A lot of it comes from vets and trainers experimenting in the racing world and it trickles over to other sports. There are people in other countries like Dubai who are spending huge amounts of money to do their own testing and research to push horses as far as they can. The kind of enhancements you see in bad sci-fi movies movies is a bit over the top but that's the kind of direction they want to go in.

Dubai doesn't allow drugs in racing and their research is more likely related to developing tests for illegal drug use. In fact, US horses racing in Dubai have been set down after traces of drugs were found in US horses. Racing in Europe doesn't allow drugs; the US allows many more than they should, esp. since many race tracks went to year long venues. It really hurts the horses. Let's hope the show world doesn't "learn" too much from the racing world. BTW, I love racing, but the drug policies that have evolved in the past 20 years make me crazy.

Vkent
Mar. 5, 2008, 02:44 PM
Yup! And thats the ugly side to this area. Rich kids ruling the world.



This actually happened shortly before Ketamine was placed on the third schedule of controlled substances in the summer of 99 (I was a teenager back then) and became heavily regulated. I really had no idea what it was exactly until I looked it up later that evening. Back then (and even now) it really wasn't difficult to get whatever you wanted if you knew where to look and drug traffic exploded here in the late 80's and 90's due to the boom of illegal immigrants that came for the abundance of construction work during the urbanization of the area which also came with a huge increase in gang activity involving the smuggling of goods and people into the area. In the mid 90's we also had a big demand for hallucinogens from the rave scene that fueled a short-lived boom in the drug trade in the mid-90's after the SE DC kingpins were put out of business by the DEA. There was one white bread suburbanite soccer playing HS student who essentially became a millionaire from the drug trade in the 90's before other local dealers decided to take him out and get his cut. I remember a group of kids who bought a new house up in McLean (McMansion Land) and they got busted because the tax reports they were filing were red flagged by the IRS because they were claiming significantly low incomes as "florists" yet they all lived in a McMansion together and drove expensive luxury vehicles.

Nadonyalife
Mar. 5, 2008, 03:45 PM
Gee thanks, I had no idea! I was suggeted to give the powerder to a nervous horse and didn't think anything of it because you don't need a vet to buy it. Does the powder also slow down the heart rate? How would this be different then say dromosydane (sp?) becuase I understand that also must slow down the heart, since they start sweating,etc...


Because this is so widespread (or so I HEAR....), I actually quizzed a well-known show vet abt. this last summer. He explained that magnesium is given to horses for exactly the same reasons obstetricians (sp?) give it to pregnant women who go into premature labor--that is, it slows down muscle contraction and heart rate (actually, as I recall, it somehow disrupts the chemistry of cell-to-cell communications--but I will defer to the chemists among us for a better explanation).

He also explained that because of the danger of overdose, it is often given in combination with/shortly after injections of calcium, which in turn somehow improve the efficiency of cell-to-cell communications. Being a curious--some would say/have said nosy--sort, my next question to him was the obvious one: don't those two effects then offset each other? To which he replied: yep, and I've never understood why anyone (ALLEGEDLY) does it, for exactly that reason.

Perhaps Evil Chemistry Prof (a/k/a Peggy) or someone else could enlighten us--on a strictly scientific basis, of course.

little miss
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:00 PM
This is so scary - because it is right on the shelf at many of the tack stores. I had no idea that it could do this! (and now in regards to testing, I can imagine this is how many people get in trouble, having a reliable source tell them it is "ok"). You know even the littlest things test FEI, i.e. vix vapor rub, various horse body washes, etc...

Vkent
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:13 PM
Vicks Vapo Rub?!?!? What does THAT do?

eqsiu
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:24 PM
Vicks Vapo Rub?!?!? What does THAT do?

I've heard of using it to get cocaine into the body, but I don't know if that's the most common use or not.

silver2
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:24 PM
Vicks Vapo Rub?!?!? What does THAT do?
Applied to the nostrils it keeps stallions from smelling any mares that may be in heat. No idea it was illegal!

I really doubt it gets cocaine into the body as it's not a solvent to my knowledge, maybe it's used to coverup the smell of DMSO applied for that purpose?

little miss
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:28 PM
Applied to the nostrils it keeps stallions from smelling any mares that may be in heat. No idea it was illegal!

Yes this is the only reason I've used it! I don't know if it is illegal for USEF, but it is for FEI. I can understand why it could be since it does help with breathing.

ticktock
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:34 PM
Vicks is fine to use for USEF shows, just not on FEI horses. It is also used in the nostrils for horses that have allergies.

eqsiu
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:35 PM
I really doubt it gets cocaine into the body as it's not a solvent to my knowledge, maybe it's used to coverup the smell of DMSO applied for that purpose?

I wondered, but using somethng doesn't mean it actually works!

silver2
Mar. 5, 2008, 04:48 PM
Ain't that the truth.

wtywmn
Mar. 5, 2008, 07:58 PM
Possibly I misunderstood DMK's post. But the way I read it, it said that the FEI was similar to USEF on with drawal times. Thus the no. Yes, injections, and herbals are used. Along with all the magnetic, game ready's and any other devices which pass muster. Outside of the horses going into quaratine.

Have seen like many posting here, the effects of long term use on horses in my care. Founder, we're talking bad founder, being the most prevalent. It makes me sick. It shortens their life, depending on whats used. We're not talking FEI horses here. Calcium, magnesium and dex seem to be the drugs of choice these days. I hate them. The people who use them haven't a bloody clue. So in so down the aisle has told them it works. Off they go, to use it. Not knowing or caring what it does to the horses they are supposedly training & showing. Only wanting to win... Sorry, but like alot I hate some of the aspects of this sport. Winning has become what its all about. Not better horsemen.

Candle
Mar. 5, 2008, 08:13 PM
I'm thinking that magnesium in small doses is therapeutic, and magnesium in large doses is potentially fatal. I'm also thinking that those giving magnesium as a show-ring shortcut are giving it in larger doses. If you buy the supplement at the tack store and use the recommended dose, I highly doubt you are going to kill your horse. I used a mag supplement on my former IR horse, and it really helped her a lot. It's like most things, in therapeutic doses it's fine, just don't jack up the dose to try to get more of the therapeutic effect and end up doing damage.

About the Vicks, isn't it not that Vick's gives some performance edge, but that an ingredient in it either masks another substance or gives the same test result as another substance that really does give performance benefits? I don't know the FEI drug rules, that's just my best guess.

Sing Mia Song
Mar. 5, 2008, 08:17 PM
Vicks Vapo Rub?!?!? What does THAT do?

It's used to keep a stallion from smelling an in-season mare and getting studly.

As an aside, it also works a treat if you're working in the clinic and have to deal with a particularly nasty smell. ;)

DMK
Mar. 5, 2008, 08:56 PM
wytmm, that's where the "technically speaking" angle came in - since I was talking about the universe of all performance enhancing drugs, I didn't want to leave anyone with the idea that FEI horses aren't getting these drugs, because we all know they are, it's just the timing and trace elements that change for some of them.

I have my doubts about cocaine as a performance enhancing drug in horses. I'm sorry, but I think that is just so 1980's and if you are going to drug your horse to hype it up or calm it down (based on whatever the theory de jour is for cocaine these days), there are a lot of illegal things better able to the job with more predictable results. Sorry, but I think the cocaine sanctions that have come down the pipeline in the last few years can probably be traced to a groom/trainer/rider/whatever handling their recreational drugs and then handling the bit/bridle for the horse in question.

And trust me, I'm not naive about legal and illegal Rx abuse and horses. It's just this one doesn't pass the sniff test. So to speak. :lol:

Candle - I believe the issue with Mg is purely related to method of administration. IV bad, oral not an issue.

Dazednconfused
Mar. 5, 2008, 09:08 PM
I think that the use of performance enhancing substances is quite likely a "norm" rather than an exception, particularly at the upper echelons. Everyone is looking for any viable edge they can find. I wonder if the practice is widespread across all disciplines, or if it is just a hunter/jumper phenomena.

I can assure you that it is quite common in Arabians. And QHs. And Paints. I would bet dressage too. And the sheer number of LEGAL cocktails that can be giving to TB racehorses...:no: It's a big problem in any discipline where there are money and ribbons to be won. :(

Dazednconfused
Mar. 5, 2008, 09:28 PM
Yes this is the only reason I've used it! I don't know if it is illegal for USEF, but it is for FEI. I can understand why it could be since it does help with breathing.


Applied to the nostrils it keeps stallions from smelling any mares that may be in heat. No idea it was illegal!

I really doubt it gets cocaine into the body as it's not a solvent to my knowledge, maybe it's used to coverup the smell of DMSO applied for that purpose?


Vicks is fine to use for USEF shows, just not on FEI horses. It is also used in the nostrils for horses that have allergies.



About the Vicks, isn't it not that Vick's gives some performance edge, but that an ingredient in it either masks another substance or gives the same test result as another substance that really does give performance benefits? I don't know the FEI drug rules, that's just my best guess.

Vicks is NOT LEGAL for USEF shows. It contains camphor (a topical analgesic) which is on the forbidden substances list.

http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/2007/2007DrugsMedsGuidelines.pdf

Peggy
Mar. 5, 2008, 10:58 PM
The Evil Chem Prof is not a biochemist and escaped from the bio courses as an undergrad when the pre-meds got too nasty. So I can't really help with the calcium-magnesium thing. I would guess that there's a huge difference b/w feeding a powder containing magnesium ions and IV injecting a solution containing magnesium ions.

I'll see if I can flag down a biologist or biochemist in the hall tomorrow.

mbj
Mar. 6, 2008, 04:33 PM
This thread is so sad and worrisome. We are going to be selling some lovely horses this year because my rider is off to vet school and the 5-7 year olds are too nice to sit in a field for 4 plus years. I was picturing getting them nice show homes, as they are fancy, and now I am worried about how to tell if I am selling them to a dru happy scene or a sane horsemanship scene. Is this knucklehead practice really commonplace?

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 6, 2008, 04:40 PM
I think it is indeed commonplace, based on the responses we have gotten in this thread. I am heartened, however, to hear (read) that many of the people with experience who have contributed to this thread seem to be quite knowledgeable, rather than having a bunch of wild eyed needle stabbing lunatics caring for our beasts.

Peggy
Mar. 6, 2008, 04:54 PM
IMHO, it's not unusual, but there are some good guys out there. One of my trainer's clients went to a BNT who asked what the horses prep was. Soon-to-be former trainer said a bit of banamine and that she got to the show early every AM to ride the horse in the ring before the show started. Not sure the BNT quite believed that work could take the place of chemistry.

silver2
Mar. 6, 2008, 04:59 PM
I don't know about that Harry- I quit working in the horse biz years ago along with everyone else with the education and ability to make more than $15/hr doing something else. Including, probably, most of the people responding to this thread.

I'm not sure I've ever worked with a BM or trainer who had anything beyond a 12th grade education, most barely had that. Most everyone I've worked for left the medical side of things up to the vet or were in the rnaks of knowledgable horsepeople who either stayed in school or educated themselves in order to be more involved in the medical side of things (breeders esp). But there are also many frighteningly ignorant people doing really well in the horse world, and a lot of them practice better showing through chemistry. Or voodoo, since half that crap can't possibly work and is only a placebo to make the rider feel better.

buryinghill4
Mar. 6, 2008, 05:08 PM
I think it is indeed commonplace, based on the responses we have gotten in this thread. I am heartened, however, to hear (read) that many of the people with experience who have contributed to this thread seem to be quite knowledgeable, rather than having a bunch of wild eyed needle stabbing lunatics caring for our beasts.

Harry, there are a herd of lunatics medicating away back in the tents. I'd love to know how many of the maniacs sent 10ccs of penicillin into an artery and we simply never head about it (I don't know how we couldn't hear about it as a whole aisle would have been destroyed) :(
I've had neighbors at shows ask horrid questions ("can I mix 3ccs of &%$ with 2ccs of *&@#?") and I never give any advice.

july
Mar. 6, 2008, 05:42 PM
I don't know about that Harry- I quit working in the horse biz years ago along with everyone else with the education and ability to make more than $15/hr doing something else. Including, probably, most of the people responding to this thread.

I'm not sure I've ever worked with a BM or trainer who had anything beyond a 12th grade education, most barely had that. Most everyone I've worked for left the medical side of things up to the vet or were in the rnaks of knowledgable horsepeople who either stayed in school or educated themselves in order to be more involved in the medical side of things (breeders esp). But there are also many frighteningly ignorant people doing really well in the horse world, and a lot of them practice better showing through chemistry. Or voodoo, since half that crap can't possibly work and is only a placebo to make the rider feel better.

Bit off topic but:
Just because you left the horse business does not mean "everyone else" with the education and ability to make more then $15/hr doing something else has left the business.

Before deciding to start my own equine sales business, I worked in transfer pricing (a very small and special segment of Financial Consulting, which is a mix of tax, law and economics). It was a "start up" company with many partners coming from the Big 4. When I left we had offices and/or partners in the US, Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Denmark, Russia, Japan, New Zeland, Argentina, etc. It was a nice work environment but I left that job because, amazingly enough, I love the horses more then the steady pay check/bonus and decided even my worst day with the horses was better then a day in the office. In general, I've found the people that I worked with in the horse business much more interesting, fun and hardworking. I can work outside and talk to vets about the latest medicine, have travelled all over the world, and met people from all social classes. It was 100% my choice and the only thing that held me back from doing it sooner was that I felt like I had to see what my degree was good for, and of course the social pressure to have a "traditional job".

I think you'll find at the top of the sport there are many educated people (including barn managers and grooms!!). Scary as it sounds, I'd bet some of the most experienced grooms know more about the effects of some of these medications then the recently graduating vets. Last year I had a mare that was in a university clinic and I was teaching some of the students how to bandage her correctly (as per request of the veterinary professor!).

Janet
Mar. 6, 2008, 05:46 PM
I'm not sure I've ever worked with a BM or trainer who had anything beyond a 12th grade education, most barely had that.
How about a doctorate in Foreign Relations?

slainte!
Mar. 6, 2008, 05:49 PM
Last BM i worked with had her masters in education.... don't knock the education levels, yo!

buryinghill4
Mar. 6, 2008, 05:59 PM
How about a doctorate in Foreign Relations?

VERY useful for communicating with the hard-headed German imports :winkgrin:

showjumpers66
Mar. 6, 2008, 06:03 PM
And, of course, for the diabetic riders, grooms, public, etc. who need daily insulin.


The sharps containers are essential for legal use of drugs. Dex, injectable bute, banamine, legend, adaquen, etc can all be used at a show, legally w/in the correct time frames. As a person who has a horse that breaks out into hives whenever introduced to a new stall, Dex is an essential part of our show routine.

silver2
Mar. 6, 2008, 06:05 PM
A doctorate in foreign relations does not qualify you to invent your own tranquilizers ;)

Obviously there are some people in the horse world with an education. But they are a definite minority and even if that education is not in the field of animal science they are probably not in the ranks of those shooting their horse up with a mixture of magnesium, Dex, and eye of newt to make it hold its head lower. Or giving their own joint injections, which one idiot I knew started doing to "save her clients money". No idea how that worked out long term.

The fact remains that the vast majority of horse people that do this stuff haven't a clue about the way the drugs work, possible side effects, dosage or even basic physiology. The fact they don't kill more horses is a miracle, imho. Especially at the local shows where it's totally un-regulated.


I'd bet some of the most experienced grooms know more about the effects of some of these medications then the recently graduating vets
I know they think they do but I seriously question it.

Piggiejump
Mar. 6, 2008, 07:02 PM
I won't touch the true subject at hand, the meds....

But myself and most of the barn managers I know have college degrees or at least some years of college. And the ones who don'teasily could have gone to college had they not chosen the horsey path.

Few barns allow the non-english speaking grooms(which what I feel some people are thinking) manage the meds. And the grooms who do are highly skilled and capable.

Do not be so quick to judge that which you know little about.

silver2
Mar. 6, 2008, 07:20 PM
I see I've touched a nerve with the education comments. Well I stand by them: I've boarded or worked at dozens of barns and have never met a BM or a trainer with an education that qualified them to prescribe drugs (except a couple who actually were DMVs or DVMs.)

Being smart enough to get into college is not the same as completing a course of study in a field. Am I smart enough to get a degree in pharmocolgy? probably. Do I have a pharmocology degree? no.

There is a lot more to successfully using meds than getting the immediate desired effect. Longterm complications, contra indications, interactions with other drugs and supplements. I doubt any grooms are up to speed on all those areas.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 6, 2008, 07:28 PM
Please, I would like to keep this a discussion, and an exchange, not a cat fight. Alot of what has been said has been educational to me, and taken some of the hocus pocus out of it.

lauriep
Mar. 6, 2008, 08:20 PM
I see I've touched a nerve with the education comments. Well I stand by them: I've boarded or worked at dozens of barns and have never met a BM or a trainer with an education that qualified them to prescribe drugs (except a couple who actually were DMVs or DVMs.)

Being smart enough to get into college is not the same as completing a course of study in a field. Am I smart enough to get a degree in pharmocolgy? probably. Do I have a pharmocology degree? no.

There is a lot more to successfully using meds than getting the immediate desired effect. Longterm complications, contra indications, interactions with other drugs and supplements. I doubt any grooms are up to speed on all those areas.

silver, while these educated/competent trainers, and there are plenty, may not be able to PRESCRIBE meds, they certainly are more than capable of working with their vet on problems, LEARNING what the various drugs do, LEARNING to use them appropriately and even, yes, even being proactive on certain problems using things they have seen work in the past.

I find horse people to be extremely intelligent as a whole. The problem arises when these intelligent people choose the dark side to make $$ faster and easier.

Oh, yeah, and I WAS one of "those grooms" and I had a very good knowledge of the drugs I was working with, provided to me by several of the best vets in the country. And I was mentored by other of "those grooms" who DID know as much, if not more, about many drugs than newly minted vets. I, and they, have helped said vets with some of the things we have seen through many, many applications on horses that they had not.

silver2
Mar. 6, 2008, 08:21 PM
I didn't mean to offend, I was talking about education in biology and chemistry. Most horse people simply don't have any. It's not a reflection on your IQ.

Nor is it just horse people, if the general population was a little more educated and harder to fool then companies like Airborne and Danon would not proft so much from false advertising. Of course my SO will probably run out and spend his refund check on an even more dubious hippy "remedy" :)


silver, while these educated/competent trainers, and there are plenty, may not be able to PRESCRIBE meds, they certainly are more than capable of working with their vet on problems, LEARNING what the various drugs do, LEARNING to use them appropriately and even, yes, even being proactive on certain problems using things they have seen work in the past.

I find horse people to be extremely intelligent as a whole. The problem arises when these intelligent people choose the dark side to make $$ faster and easier.
I think we essentially agree. This thread is about the designed not-to-test "cocktails" which people give in a very haphazard fashion and often with minimal to no veterinary input, particularly at the lower tier barns. The pink shot craze is a perfect example. Giving IV magnesium for no medical reason is another.

I have no issue with qualified staff giving commonly used drugs under a defined set of circumstances. Beyond that and any groom or trainer, no matter how experienced, is way out of their league.

Intelligence does not equal knowledge.

Janet
Mar. 6, 2008, 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janet http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3057120#post3057120)
How about a doctorate in Foreign Relations?


VERY useful for communicating with the hard-headed German imports :winkgrin:

Since her area of specialization was Portuguese Africa (Angola and Mozambique) and the Carribean Basin (mostly Spanish speaking - especially Cuba) it DOES help with her horse business.

Janet
Mar. 6, 2008, 10:51 PM
A doctorate in foreign relations does not qualify you to invent your own tranquilizers ;) Of course not. but she has more that enough sense to even want to.

harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens
Mar. 6, 2008, 11:17 PM
Hmmm. Lauriep and I rarely agree, and this is one of those cases. I respect where and when she has been, and she has worked with and for the best... the with and for, I will state here and now are the horses in the equation. Sometimes, and again, I am on the "spectator: side of the equation, I personally feel we sacrifice too much to win. Am I wrong? probably, in this case, yes. I know that the world of olympian efforts is far beyond the grasp of what we do in the 2 foot hunters. I am proud when the USA wins an international effort, no doubt. Sometimes, to me, the victory is not worth its concessions. What I do know, is that someone like Lauriep, is infinitely more well versed than I in "what it takes", and I have to respect that. And, I do thank her for her input, at least on this sensitive matter. It assists those of us who want to learn more, to grasp what we do not see from ringside.

Wanderluster
Mar. 7, 2008, 12:14 PM
Especially at the local shows where it's totally un-regulated

I don't know about the regulations in the rest of the country but I am hosting a series of unrecognized shows in California and I had to send in forms with the show date and location to the state and collect drug testing fees. We are subject to testing at any competition where the entry fee exceeds $4.99.

Janet
Mar. 7, 2008, 12:42 PM
I don't know about the regulations in the rest of the country but I am hosting a series of unrecognized shows in California and I had to send in forms with the show date and location to the state and collect drug testing fees. We are subject to testing at any competition where the entry fee exceeds $4.99.
I think that is just California. Certainly no state involvement in VA.