Horse Owners we need to WAKE UP!!! [Archive]

redleaflady

Feb. 28, 2008, 08:25 PM

Slowly the states are taking away our right to find alternative ways of helping our horses. Laws are being passed that limit alternative health care to the vets. In many areas of the country, there is a shortage of equine vets as it is. Now the laws are limiting anything from chiropractic to massage to magnetic therapy to the vets. Most of these alternative methods can be used effectively and safely by a properly trained lay person. These laws are limiting the care we can provide our horses. I have a 6 yr old mare that lacerated a tendon before her 2nd bithday. She spent a month at a vet school. According to the vets, she was never to be sound for her intended purpose of dressage. I pursued alternative methods of healing her tendon including mirco-electric current, ultrasound, infrasound, magnetics, homeopathy, aroma therapy oils, and accupuncture. She has since won many blue ribbons and a high point award in dressage at intro and training level. She will be showing at first and second level in the near future. The vets were amazed at the results. Most of the alternative methods I used were administered by myself or another lay person. The accupunture was done by a licensed vet. These rights to help our horses are being taken away state by state. Soon all we will have access to is traditional vet medicine. That does not always work as in the case of my mare. How many of you can see a vet having the time to do an hour massage on a sport horse when they are already over booked because of the lack of equine vets?

Appassionato

Feb. 28, 2008, 08:31 PM

OMG, they are insinuating that magnets are dangerous? *snort* :lol:

Or the owners that might refuse conventional medicine might be dangerous...hmmm...seriously, I've known folks like this. Not insinuating the OP is, just that I've known folks that let their animals suffer since conventional medicine isn't up to their idea of snuff.

Ghazzu

Feb. 28, 2008, 08:32 PM

Appassionato

Feb. 28, 2008, 08:33 PM

In most states, you'd be just fine--if it's your animal you're treating with whatever methods you choose, so long as they don't constitute animal cruelty.
However, if you went about the countryside treating someone else's animals, and charging a fee for it, you might run afoul of the laws.

That makes a lot of sense to me, thanks Ghazzu. ;)

Lookout

Feb. 28, 2008, 08:45 PM

In most states, you'd be just fine--if it's your animal you're treating with whatever methods you choose, so long as they don't constitute animal cruelty.
However, if you went about the countryside treating someone else's animals, and charging a fee for it, you might run afoul of the laws.
So an owner is supposed to learn massage, aromatherapy, homeopathy, ultrasound therapy, electro-magnetic, chiropractic, magnets, lasers, and invest in all the equipment/tools etc. to do it?

redleaflady

Feb. 28, 2008, 09:00 PM

That is the problem. You are fine if you treat your own animal. If you give someone advice on treating an animal you can be in trouble. I use a chiropractor for my horses that is not a vet or a DC. She has been doing this work for over 30 years. In my opinion, she is much more effective than most of the vet chiropractors out there. She will spend and hour or longer looking at a horse, watching it move and so on. She has developed a whole new way of adjusting a horse. These laws make it a crime for her to work or in some cases for me to hire her to work. She travels to Canada regularly and works with vets there. Many of the vets there highly recommend her even over other chiropractors.

deltawave

Feb. 28, 2008, 09:42 PM

Maybe they're trying to protect the consumer from fake practitioners who could potentially do more harm than good?

Lookout

Feb. 28, 2008, 09:55 PM

Maybe they're trying to protect the consumer from fake practitioners who could potentially do more harm than good?
That's a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't it? And not very fair to the 'not fake' practitioners either. That's very kind of them to undertake this mission on behalf of owners, but who's going to protect the consumer from the lousy vets?

dressagedevon

Feb. 28, 2008, 09:57 PM

deltawave

Feb. 28, 2008, 10:08 PM

murphyluv

Feb. 28, 2008, 10:19 PM

That's a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't it? And not very fair to the 'not fake' practitioners either. That's very kind of them to undertake this mission on behalf of owners, but who's going to protect the consumer from the lousy vets?

Well said

silver2

Feb. 28, 2008, 10:28 PM

No, but it beats no system at all, wherein anyone with a half-baked idea and a good sales pitch can set themselves up as a "practitioner".
Please! Half-ass "trainers" and shoddy farriers do far more harm than alternative practitioners and they are completely unregulated.

I'm fairly conservative when it comes ot vet care myself, but I can't imagine a massage therapist or someone with an ultrasound or a light wand causing much in the way of problems.

wildREDhorse

Feb. 28, 2008, 10:29 PM

Maybe they're trying to protect the consumer from fake practitioners who could potentially do more harm than good?

I agree. The OP doesn't say exactly how they are going to make it more "difficult" for us.

If it means my chiro/acupuncturist has to go get certified, so be it, get that license and I have to pay a touch more. Oh wait, she already has it because I wouldn't dare let someone crack my horses that doesn't have a license. I'm sure you wouldn't want an inlicensed doctor or nurse taking care of you.. OR some person who says, yeah yeah, I am a chiro! Then paralyzes your horse by cracking your horses neck incorrectly. Yep, it could happen even with a licensed person, but at least the licensed are going to get in trouble if they kill too many, and are forced a certain education if they are going to practice. JMO.

Kristin J.

Feb. 28, 2008, 10:31 PM

In Florida you can not 'work' on a horse unless your a Vet. That includes horseshoers. No one I know has been in trouble with the law for shoeing a horse.

deltawave

Feb. 28, 2008, 10:33 PM

I consider it a "problem" when people are duped, fleeced, and relieved of their hard-earned money by con artists. Maybe no harm is done to the animal, how do we know? If something has an "effect" it may have a "side effect". Without SOME form of regulation or at least bare minimum accreditation of competence, how does the average horse owner (there are, of course, NONE of those here, LOL) know who's credible and who's not?

Ultrasound can cause intense pain and soft tissue injury if improperly used. Herbs? Let's not argue that they can have potentially VERY potent effects, OK? Chiropractic manipulation with no training? SCARY. Heck, even massage is contraindicated in certain medical conditions. Not saying these modalities don't have a role, but why would anyone be averse to a system of knowing the practitioner they call on is reputable and well trained? :confused: Just because the current system is lousy doesn't mean the corollary is that NO system is a good thing.

murphyluv

Feb. 28, 2008, 10:43 PM

I agree. The OP doesn't say exactly how they are going to make it more "difficult" for us.

If it means my chiro/acupuncturist has to go get certified, so be it, get that license and I have to pay a touch more. Oh wait, she already has it because I wouldn't dare let someone crack my horses that doesn't have a license. I'm sure you wouldn't want an inlicensed doctor or nurse taking care of you.. OR some person who says, yeah yeah, I am a chiro! Then paralyzes your horse by cracking your horses neck incorrectly. Yep, it could happen even with a licensed person, but at least the licensed are going to get in trouble if they kill too many, and are forced a certain education if they are going to practice. JMO.

It may be that your chiro/acupuncturist has to be a vet, not just "certified", which quite honestly, I thought chiros already had to be licensed in most states, in some way. So do you think your person would go back to vet school just to keep practicing??? Personally, I think they have to work WITH a vet, not BE a vet. Which vet would have the time to do all of these things? Yes, perhaps some regulations as there ARE some fools out there who get taken in by quacks, but I'd like to know what these exact laws are.

wildREDhorse

Feb. 28, 2008, 10:43 PM

Ultrasound can cause intense pain and soft tissue injury if improperly used. Herbs? Let's not argue that they can have potentially VERY potent effects, OK? Chiropractic manipulation with no training? SCARY. Heck, even massage is contraindicated in certain medical conditions.
Just because the current system is lousy doesn't mean the corollary is that NO system is a good thing.

Yes, yes and yes. IME. I had ultrasound done on my finger after I stupidly (and I'll leave out details) cut my tendon in my finger in half. The stupid OT assistant make me want to punch her, and I have a high pain tolerance. To put it in perspective, when my finger was cut in half bleeding everywhere, I strongly insisted I ONLY needed a bandaid.

deltawave is right on key with her statements.

MassageLady

Feb. 28, 2008, 11:12 PM

Heck, even massage is contraindicated in certain medical conditions.
Fever, shock and cancer. That's it, and all CESMT's know that.:D

Read on.
http://www.iaamb.org/reference/state-laws-2006.html

This one is the real kicker...if you can get thru it all.
http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-2391.html

now, Indiana is under attack:
http://www.in.gov/apps/lsa/session/billwatch/billinfo?year=2008&session=1&request=getBill&docno=316

Please! Half-ass "trainers" and shoddy farriers do far more harm than alternative practitioners and they are completely unregulated.
Yep...they're next!!

If it means my chiro/acupuncturist has to go get certified, so be it, get that license and I have to pay a touch more. Oh wait, she already has it because I wouldn't dare let someone crack my horses that doesn't have a license.
Me neither...but there are schools that are certifying people to do this. The schools are good schools!! 2 year with 6months of apprenticship. Do you think they should be told they can no longer practice?? Don't you think it's your right to use alternative therapies to help your horse if you so desire? Do you believe that your vet will learn these to help you?? I'm lucky, I have a vet that does! Yet, it will hurt those who are using massage therapy, which works great with chiro! I know of NO VET that does massage therapy.

silver2

Feb. 28, 2008, 11:41 PM

Without SOME form of regulation or at least bare minimum accreditation of competence, how does the average horse owner (there are, of course, NONE of those here, LOL) know who's credible and who's not?

That is not the point at issue here. It is legislation saying that only a VET can perform such treatments. That is like saying only an MD can pull blood, or give you a massage. Trained therapists and techs to work on people all the time, why not horses?

And in answer to your point- there are plenty of respected accreditation programs in place for equine therapists as well as state laws governing such. Anyone with half a brain is not going to hire an unlicensed or fly-by-night chiro or massage therapist. The less-than-half-brainers out there, and god knows there's plenty of them, are likely to already be doing far more harm to their horses with home-school farriery or wire war bridles or something. Massage is benign in comparison.

Plus, the only vet I know who's a also chiro is godawful. He damn near did cripple my mare.

McVillesMom

Feb. 29, 2008, 07:25 AM

deltawave

Feb. 29, 2008, 07:57 AM

I can think of a whole bunch of other contraindications to massage, but they only apply to humans so it's sort of moot. :)

So if the legislation is proposing that only a vet can do these things, I would agree it's kind of strange. I'd feel sorry for any vet that felt he/she had to pick up skills in six different kinds of alternative therapies to feel as though they were able to offer their clients what they wanted. But NO regulation is not the answer, either. I'd fully support some sort of governing body for para-medical and alternative therapies for horses, and people. However, a call to "wake up" and protest this kind of arrangement seems as if it would be misguided if the call was simply to squash any sort of arrangement where regulation was mandated/enforced.

MassageLady

Feb. 29, 2008, 08:35 AM

FWIW, this is already the law in Ohio and has been for some time. I believe it is the same in other states as well. However, I still know many, many people who practice either dentistry, massage or chiro that are not licensed veterinarians. My point being that there is little to no enforcement of the law. I think it may only become a problem if someone has a complaint
And I know of people who have gotten 'cease and desist' letters from the court:yes: And are threatened with being charged with 'practicing medicine without a license', this is a FELONY and in some states could get up to 10yrs in jail!
Please contact the legislators in Indiana and tell them to vote this law down!

The veterinarians are doing this because they want the monopoly on horse care. There are many other ways to help horses, soon it will be that you can't administer shots or pills to your own horse either. Did you read all the links? Did you read this one...
http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-2391.html

In 1997, amid great fanfare, the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) announced that several transnational pharmaceutical companies, along with a major animal food company had formed a “strategic partnership” for the purpose of improving the financial fortunes of the veterinary industry as a whole. This new partnership is not just the same old corporate sponsorship at trade shows and sporting competitions for advertising purposes, this is a serious donation of $1 million or more a year plus assignment of personnel to the newly-formed National Commission on Veterinary Economic Issues (NCVEI) to assist in strategic planning to renovate the veterinary business as a whole. NCVEI proudly lists its founding sponsors as Bayer, Hill’s Pet Nutrition, Merial (a joint venture of Aventis & Merck), Novartis, Pfizer, and VPI Pet Insurance. Other regular sponsors include Fort Dodge, CareCredit, and Western Veterinary Conference. A minor coincidence in this new “strategic partnership” is that the head of AVMA, who cut the deal, now is an employee of one of the founding sponsors.

Concurrent with the Task Force guidelines project was the development of a model law that is now being used by vet licensing boards in all 50 states to pass brutal anti-customer DVM monopoly laws that has only one goal in mind, to protect and increase the incomes of veterinarians and their Sugar Daddy, Big Pharma.

To make sure you understand the implications of this policy, which is being promoted in passage of new laws across the US, is that DVMs, who have no knowledge, understanding, or training in any natural healing art, have the right to tell YOU, the animal owner, what you can and cannot do to help your animal.

PLEASE LET US REPEAT, the goal here is to CONTROL YOU and what YOU can do for YOUR animal. It is not about the health and safety of the animal. Since natural healing arts are extremely safe and the practice of DVMs, as a modern medical healing art, has the potential of being extremely risky and life threatening, vets have never publicly argued safety as their justification for passage of DVM monopoly laws. They can’t.

So once again, it's about the almighty dollar! And control!

MassageLady

Feb. 29, 2008, 08:41 AM

deltawave

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:33 AM

I guess that's one way of seeing the issue. :) There are other, less conspiracy-driven viewpoints, however.

RAyers

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:46 AM

Interesting, considering that this is an industry that is showing fewer and fewer large animal vets are graduating. Any time I see the word "sugar daddy" in an article, I automatically know that the article is opinion, NOT fact.

Do you think Jack Ruby is behind this? Maybe NASA started this as part of covering up the fake moon landings? Could the large pharmaceutical companies be owned by aliens who are trying to take over the world?

Face it, veterinary medicine is TINY money compared to human medicine. While it may be true that there is an effort to aid vets economically, I find that companies would expend much effort ($1 million is a tiny drop in the bucket) to corner a market that brings in a very small return, e.g. most vet drugs are considered margin drugs, unlikely.

Reed

ArtilleryHill

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:58 AM

J Swan

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:59 AM

I know of at least one state that is so concerned about the lack of large animal vets - they're offering grants and other incentives to attract students to the profession.

I'm not sure veterinary medicine is as sexy and lucrative as folks like to think it is. At least large animal veterinary medicine.

I have no problem with alternative medicine, or with massage or acupuncture. But I'll tell ya the reason such professions (for large animals) can't get their voice heard.

Because you're not organized. There is an incredible benefit to establishing yourself as a legitimate profession, including forming a guild or association, licensing, dues, code of ethics, and criteria for membership.

It's that you can self police and weed out the bad apples, and also present a unified voice in your legislature.

Establishing your professions as true professions, and establishing a good working relationship with your counterparts in the veterinary lobby - will go a long way towards having jobs regulated out of existence.

If you don't regulate yourself - someone else will. The logical choice would be licensed vets. So that's what's happening. Maybe there have been too many cases of idiots harming horses or fleecing owners; too many snake oil salesmen.

Anyway - it's just my experience that to be an effective voice for a profession, you have to establish yourselves like the others have. Human and veterinary medicine aren't the only areas in which this problem has surfaced. Consider it a growing pain.

Best of luck.

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 12:11 PM

All of this is regulated already in the form of licenses, etc. The vets are 'protecting' us from licensed people. NO ONE in certain states regardless of their qualifications can WORK on a horse. They must be a vet.

I consider it a "problem" when people are duped, fleeced, and relieved of their hard-earned money by con artists. Maybe no harm is done to the animal, how do we know? If something has an "effect" it may have a "side effect". Without SOME form of regulation or at least bare minimum accreditation of competence, how does the average horse owner (there are, of course, NONE of those here, LOL) know who's credible and who's not?

Ultrasound can cause intense pain and soft tissue injury if improperly used. Herbs? Let's not argue that they can have potentially VERY potent effects, OK? Chiropractic manipulation with no training? SCARY. Heck, even massage is contraindicated in certain medical conditions. Not saying these modalities don't have a role, but why would anyone be averse to a system of knowing the practitioner they call on is reputable and well trained? :confused: Just because the current system is lousy doesn't mean the corollary is that NO system is a good thing.

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 12:19 PM

Face it, veterinary medicine is TINY money compared to human medicine.
Correct. They have to look for alternative sources of income.

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 12:20 PM

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 12:23 PM

I
So if the legislation is proposing that only a vet can do these things, I would agree it's kind of strange.

What do you mean, if? And it's not a PROPOSAL, it's a law. IN PLACE.

But NO regulation is not the answer, either. I'd fully support some sort of governing body for para-medical and alternative therapies for horses, and people.

Nor is no regulation being suggested as the answer either. There already is regulation. It doesn't matter if you're regulated, it matters if you're a vet. You are very good at obfuscating this argument.

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 12:34 PM

I agree. The OP doesn't say exactly how they are going to make it more "difficult" for us.
By making it illegal for anyone that is not a vet to work on a horse.

[quote]
If it means my chiro/acupuncturist has to go get certified, so be it, get that license and I have to pay a touch more. Oh wait, she already has it because I wouldn't dare let someone crack my horses that doesn't have a license.
No, it doesn't mean that. Not good enough. Has to be a vet.

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 12:37 PM

<<but who's going to protect the consumer from the lousy vets?>.

Uh, well, the law already protects you from them. Vets, after all, have to be licensed and are overseen by veterinary medical boards. Which is not always the case with alternative practitioners, as pointed out by others here.
Oh right, the good vets are protecting us from the bad vets. So that approach should work for all the alternative practitioners too. At least, they would know something about the alternative practice.

As for the almighty dollar argument, well, the alternative practitioners aren't out there doing their holistic medicine for free, either, so gimme a break.
Not if the vets have their way.

deltawave

Feb. 29, 2008, 12:48 PM

Equibrit

Feb. 29, 2008, 12:55 PM

RAyers

Feb. 29, 2008, 01:03 PM

Correct. They have to look for alternative sources of income.

Uh, you broke out a section of a comment to make a poor point.

Large animal vet numbers are diminishing which means their expertise is in demand and as such they can make good money (e.g. JSwan's noting of grants) just by simply being a good vet. They don't need the help of large corps.

My point was that large corps don't need to corner the market in veterinary medicine because that market, financially, is miniscule compared to the human medicine.

What I see is a bunch of whining from folks who refuse to actually stand up and organize themselves as well as refusing to working to become accepted in the medical community as a viable mode of treatment. Obviously, it can work as we have DDSs, RNs, PAs, ODs, EMTs, Ph.D.s, etc. all who work within the medical establisment and all who practice specific forms of medicine. Why can't farriers, dentists, and alternative practitioners work within the frame of veterinary medicine to create organizations and licensing specific to their expertise?

Maybe it is time to man up and do something productive instead of screaming that we are all going to die if things go in a certain direction.

Uh, by the way, LASERS and ANY RADIATION EMMITTING DEVICE must be regulated and certified by the FDA if it iused to treat, diagnose or in any way be used to affect tissue. So, why not the practioner?

Reed

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 01:05 PM

Nobody can "protect us" from every form of malpractice, evil intent, or just plain lousy outcomes. I tend to not fall hard onto the "conspiracy theory" side of things. I'm not trying to obfuscate anything. I think it's strange and stupid to allow only veterinarians to practice alternative medicine on animals. I would support having these kinds of laws changed. I don't, however, think that total de-regulation is a good solution to BAD regulation.
No one is arguing for total deregulation! This is what I mean by obfuscating. Alright then, strawman argument. Argue a point no one has made.

If it's in the hands of "vets only", at least you know that generally speaking the person coming out to work on your horse has a solid background in medicine and animal "health and disease".
So what. What about when that 'solid background' gets you nowhere and you want an alternative. Why should they be the ones to say whether or not an alternative practitioner with a solid background in their field should be allowed to work on your animal when they have no background, solid or otherwise, in it.

I'd vastly prefer that to some mail-order crackpot trying to detoxify one of my animals with some nutso regimen. :lol:
Isn't it nice IF you have that choice. What if someone else feels differently than you. Where is their freedom of choice.

If there are "bad vets" out there, there are means of dealing with them. How does the general public "deal with" snake oil charlatans? Other than "caveat emptor"?
The alternative practices have their own certifications, boards, qualifications, etc., and they're not poking their noses into vets' business and trying to tell the public whether those vets are qualifed or not.

As J Swan said, where are the efforts on the part of alternative practitioners to change things for the better by organizing and providing legitimate alternatives?
The alternative practitioners as I said, have their own internal organizations that already do this. They do not have the funding, like the AVMA did (from the pharmaceutical agencies) to PASS A LAW which takes millions of dollars in lobbying. The AVMA would never have been able to do this unassisted either. Given a choice between supporting alternative practitioners and vets, pharmaceuticals are certainly going to choose vets, their customers.

Tamara in TN

Feb. 29, 2008, 01:12 PM

Interesting, considering that this is an industry that is showing fewer and fewer large animal vets are graduating.

yep....everyone wants to be the head vet on call for the Sheiks third USA TB holding...but no body wants to trudge out to pull dead piglets out of a 600 lb sow....nobody wants to TB test cattle at the sales....no body wants to inspect carcasses no one wants to palpate a 200 cow herd in the dead of winter

face it....a buncha subdivision raised girly girls (whose closest thing to a "farm call" was going to the boarding barn Daddy kept her pony)...DO NOT want the physical labor involved in large animal practice....

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 01:16 PM

Uh, you broke out a section of a comment to make a poor point.

Large animal vet numbers are diminishing which means their expertise is in demand and as such they can make good money (e.g. JSwan's noting of grants) just by simply being a good vet. They don't need the help of large corps.
Large animal vets may be in greater demand for whatever reason, but as you can always see on this board for example, the majority of horse owners are not willing to pony up reasonable fees to pay for their vets. So no, just because there are some grants, I don't see vets' incomes skyrocketing without the assistance of adding services.

My point was that large corps don't need to corner the market in veterinary medicine because that market, financially, is miniscule compared to the human medicine.
One of the surest ways in business to increase your income is by increasing the range and quantity of services you provide. "Alternative" practices in that context look like a cash 'cow' as it were, to vets.

What I see is a bunch of whining from folks who refuse to actually stand up and organize themselves as well as refusing to working to become accepted in the medical community as a viable mode of treatment. Obviously, it can work as we have DDSs, RNs, PAs, ODs, EMTs, Ph.D.s, etc. all who work within the medical establisment and all who practice specific forms of medicine. Why can't farriers, dentists, and alternative practitioners work within the frame of veterinary medicine to create organizations and licensing specific to their expertise?
Who died and put veterinary medicine on top of the food chain? (other than themselves of course). And it's pretty hard for those alternative practitioners to become part of the establishment if the veterinary community has already co-opted their profession and livelihood :rolleyes: .

Maybe it is time to man up and do something productive instead of screaming that we are all going to die if things go in a certain direction.
Well, maybe they can find some generous benefactor like the AVMA did, to UNPASS the law that has already been passed, and pass their own law.

Uh, by the way, LASERS and ANY RADIATION EMMITTING DEVICE must be regulated and certified by the FDA if it iused to treat, diagnose or in any way be used to affect tissue. So, why not the practioner?

Uh, who says the practitioner shouldn't be?

redleaflady

Feb. 29, 2008, 01:34 PM

There is a great dentist in FL right now that is being prosecuted as a felon for doing his trade. He was practicing for years before the law was put into effect. He has been through schooling and has been involved in teaching vets this practice. He is in fact licensed through the state of Florida to practice dentistry on the race tracks. He is STILL being prosecuted for doing dentistry on horses. So there is a bit of a battle going on.

I am not against there being some sort of licensing or testing to allow others to practice alternative methods. Right now the laws that are being passed state by state are limiting these practices only to the vets. A lot of vets are very anti-alternative, so they won't even bother to learn these methods. We will lose access to this option as a horse owner.

There are not enough in numbers of these alternative healers and so on to make an inpact on the laws. IF they band together and stick their heads up, it becomes easier for the vets to identify these indiviuals and seek legal action against them. We as horse owners need to put our voices into the conversation. Whether you use alternative methods or not, Wouldn't you like them available if you need another approach to a problem?

silver2

Feb. 29, 2008, 01:40 PM

RAyers if large animal vets are raking in the cash in your neck of the woods, please tell me where you live so I can pass it on to my 10 or 12 firends who are large animal vets and can barely pay their loans. I went to UC Davis so I know a lot of vets and 90% of them have to take on small animal work or factory farm work to make ends meet. Horses alone are a money loser. And this is one of the wealthiest states in the country.

Deltawave- you are the only person who has brought up total de-regulation so hopefully we can drop that as it is not productive to imply it is the alternative to only allowing vets to "work on" horses. Again, you are the only one to bring this up. An example: here in CA a massage therapist for horses has to have a full regular massage therapist license (at least 2 years of full time school, more for more specialties) and additional animal training. They have to be accredited, licensed and pay annual fees. In addition many of them that I know have obtained additional certs from private institutions like the Meagher one. Under this legislation vets are not even held to the same standard! Even if they wanted to be a licensed therapist how could they afford 2-4 additional years of school with loans topping 100K? Not to mention that we don't require human therapists to adhere to the same standards. It's craziness.

My understanding of this legislation is that is has also been supported by animal rights groups in several states as a way to enforce standards of animal care. Not really something I can get behind either.

StorybrookeFarms

Feb. 29, 2008, 01:54 PM

who's going to protect the consumer from the lousy vets?

AMEN!!!!!!

deltawave

Feb. 29, 2008, 01:54 PM

Gotcha, nobody wants deregulation. Sorry.

What, then, EXACTLY, are you all proposing, other than panic and outrage? What, PRECISELY, should alternative practitioners DO about this unwanted bit of legislation. What, SPECIFICALLY, are practitioners offering as a viable alternative?

Tilting at windmills is unproductive. We can bemoan the fact that we don't understand why a certain disease exists and the fact that we can't prevent it, or we can try to treat it with the tools we have at hand. I tend to be a realist--nope, I don't have a solution to a problem, but I have these tools I can use to help things "be better". That works better for me personally than wringing my hands over things we don't fully comprehend or have control over. So in this scenario, wherein I AGREE that having only vets able to provide alternative therapies is wrongheaded, I don't see much point in calling for everyone to "WAKE UP" unless there is a PLAN or an ALTERNATIVE to the unacceptable status quo. Which, to me, seems to be the burden of the practitioners themselves, not the horse owners.

silver2

Feb. 29, 2008, 01:59 PM

They shouldn't have to do anything in the states where they are ALREADY LICENSED to perform the work. Meaning they have done the requisite training, paid their fees to an organization and are accredited and must adhere to professional standards.

This legislation will put people who legally performing a job they are trained and licensed to do out of business. It will also make them felons.

I do not know why this is so hard to understand?

deltawave

Feb. 29, 2008, 02:05 PM

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 02:36 PM

Is the licensing uniform, or variable from place to place?

Is licensing required for practicing herbal medicine? How about all the other, less "mainstream" (if you'll pardon the term) alternative practices like energy field balancing, crystals, detoxifying and the like? I got no beef with acupuncturists, chiros, dentistry, massage, even homeopathy as more or less "standardized" practices. But some of the more "out there" techniques--are they licensed, really? I find that incredible.

The AVMA isn't making this distinction, why are you? Why do you keep quibbling about licensing as if it has any relevance on this discussion?
As to the 'burden' being on the practitioners - how hard is it to understand that their profession has been outlawed? So, from what position do they undertake this burden? And by so doing identify themselves as a scofflaw?

redleaflady

Feb. 29, 2008, 02:42 PM

Whether people are licensed or not, usually the consumer will sort it out. Some of these practitioners are not licensed but have a proven track record of helping horses. Face it, the horse industry is very small. Those that are not effective will not be in business very long. As in horse shoeing and Vet medicine, if someone is certified or licensed and goes into practice, they will do their own style and what they believe is effective. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. The consumer will define who has a job or not.

As far as action is concerned, we need to be aware of the proposed legislation at the state and federal level. When these types of regulations appear, we as horse owners and horse professionals need to contact the appropriate congressmen or senators. A lot of the time, they try to sneek these types of bills in quickly and quietly. Organizations can be set up in the states that work toward getting these laws changed or keeping them from being passed. Florida has done that with FAAOR. The web site is FAAOR.ORG. FAAOR has gotten the wording of some laws changed to allow a bit of a grey area. They need to go much further. I think this will not be completely resolved until someone gets prosecuted and takes the case to the US Supreme Court to set a precident. IF this happens there needs to be the financial backing from the horse owners, practitioners, and other equine organizations.

Foxtrot's

Feb. 29, 2008, 02:58 PM

I'm on the side of not wanting regulation. It is my horse, and I make the decisions what is best for it. I have a wonderful - did I say wonderful - vet, but I don't ask him to do teeth. There was an excellent practioner for teeth here - he was driven out of the province
because two vets stood up against the practice of having non-vets do teeth. Surely a political, protectionist stance. I rather feel that if a person went to college to learn how to decorate cakes, they would not get good at it until they had had years of practice. Horse vets just don't spend that much time on teeth usually. Same as with massage, some have the feel, some don't. A person is followed by their reputation. Makes me so mad when our freedom of choice is removed.

silver2

Feb. 29, 2008, 03:14 PM

Is the licensing uniform, or variable from place to place?
As far as I know all professional licensing is handled at the state level for all professions, not just horse-related.

Private accreditations from institutions are obviously handled more like college degrees but, at least in CA, do not override the state licensing requirements.

JHUshoer20

Feb. 29, 2008, 03:27 PM

The "not fake" practitioners may have to organize themselves, begin a process of regulation, accreditation, and credentialing just like every other professional who "cares for" someone or something. These same processes are designed to protect the consumer from lousy vets, hairdressers, acupuncturists and anything else. Is the system perfect? No, but it beats no system at all, wherein anyone with a half-baked idea and a good sales pitch can set themselves up as a "practitioner". The brilliant and the competent can no more be above the rules than are the crackpots and the crooks. Good idea, as you know I'm a strong advocate of horseshoer licensing.

Problem with the vet practice acts is that it's a power grab aimed mainly at horse dentists. I've seen them arrested and fined for doing their trades.

These changes in law need to be opposed wherever their proposed and efforts need to be made to overturn them where they've been passed.
George

J Swan

Feb. 29, 2008, 03:37 PM

The consumer is indeed protected from lousy vets.

Because with lousy vets, there is a method, to censure or suspend or revoke licenses.

And it happens.

I actually don't have any problem with massage therapy, or other modalities. But I think you folks want to have your cake and eat it too. You want total freedom, without any oversight, regulation, or credentials, to go out and basically practice veterinary medicine. With no way for the public to verify for themselves if you meet basic requirements in terms of education, certification, or professional code of ethics.

If you want to be treated as professionals, then take steps to become a profession. Real professions that are organized, have codes of ethics, continuing education, and ability to speak up for yourselves in the legislature.

That's not unreasonable.

Paralegals did it, RNs did it - and now it's your turn. You can either act like the professionals you claim to be, or cling tightly to the persecution complex and be regulated out of existence.

I'd have more confidence in hiring equine dentists and other folks if I could verify that they haven't harmed any horses. I realize I'm painting this with a rather broad brush - as each occupation has its own challenges. But generally, there are a lot of other occupations that had to go through the same angst as you guys. They managed to get through it and become true professionals; given the same respect as an individual profession/career as any other. I have no doubt y'all can do the same thing.

deltawave

Feb. 29, 2008, 03:37 PM

Why do you keep quibbling about licensing as if it has any relevance on this discussion?

Surely I am allowed to decide what I consider important and what I consider trivial? :confused: I am wondering where licensing falls in the realm of ultra-alternative practitioners such as herbalists, crystal therapists, and the like. I think these are areas that are most likely to be dubious in terms of mis-practice and mal-practice and would love to know how that industry is regulated.

JHUshoer20

Feb. 29, 2008, 03:42 PM

Because you're not organized. There is an incredible benefit to establishing yourself as a legitimate profession, including forming a guild or association, licensing, dues, code of ethics, and criteria for membership.

Exactly,
Alternative practicioners also hoof trimmers take a look at my signature line. Click on the page for Allied Equine Trades. We have room for everybody who works with horses in any capacity.

In my state we had an Amishman prosecuted for gelding a horse. This problem is very real.
George

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 03:56 PM

Surely I am allowed to decide what I consider important and what I consider trivial? :confused: I am wondering where licensing falls in the realm of ultra-alternative practitioners such as herbalists, crystal therapists, and the like. I think these are areas that are most likely to be dubious in terms of mis-practice and mal-practice and would love to know how that industry is regulated.

Sure you can decide whatever you want, and you do, but it has nothing to do with this discussion. This discussion isn't about licensing.

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 03:59 PM

The consumer is indeed protected from lousy vets.

Because with lousy vets, there is a method, to censure or suspend or revoke licenses.

And it happens.

Then other alternative practitioners should be the ones regulating themselves, just like vets. It's no more reasonable for vets to regulate other professions than it is for herbalists to regulate vets. There are organizations in place for protection of consumers, but vets think it's their job to save the world from charlatans?

But I think you folks want to have your cake and eat it too. You want total freedom, without any oversight, regulation, or credentials, to go out and basically practice veterinary medicine. With no way for the public to verify for themselves if you meet basic requirements in terms of education, certification, or professional code of ethics.
I don't know who you're talking to but I don't know anyone that wants that.

Paralegals did it, RNs did it - and now it's your turn. You can either act like the professionals you claim to be, or cling tightly to the persecution complex and be regulated out of existence.

Newsflash - already happened.

Tamara in TN

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:14 PM

J Swan

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:16 PM

It hasn't happened everywhere, and it's a subject of interest to me. (as a horse owner and advocate.) Also, the "grant" I mentioned was for veterinary students. As Tamara noted, large animal medicine is largely comprised of people who have to spend all day doing some pretty hard work in harsh conditions. Incentives are offered to attract people to the profession.

Again, you're just going through what other professions went through. You may believe that vets should not regulate you, and maybe you are right. It's certainly not necessary for them to.

But since the veterinary profession is already well established, organized and properly regulated, that's what you have to work with. They're the ones holding the cards right now.

The legal and medical professions are the same way. Most certainly the stakes were higher for those professions; and yet, various tasks/occupations that were once the sole purview of the attorney and physician have become entirely new professions. In and of their own right.

I really don't see a reason why the dentists and horseshoers and whatnot can't go through that same process. If legal and medical laypeople can do it - why not y'all? For folks that are handling potentially dangerous equipment - good Lord - of course there needs to be some sort of oversight.

Where I live, the folks who are arguing against regulation/licensing the loudest are the ones who have the least amount of credibility. Though I know that's not the case across the board, those folks really make everyone look bad.

I wish all of you the best of luck.

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:27 PM

Where I live, the folks who are arguing against regulation/licensing the loudest are the ones who have the least amount of credibility. Though I know that's not the case across the board, those folks really make everyone look bad.

As has been stated repeatedly in this thread with examples, there are professions that have difficult and continuing licensing requirements. It DOESN'T MATTER. As far as the veterinary practice act is concernced, they're all the same, whether dentist, chiropractor, acupuncturist, massage therapist, herbalist, aromatherapist, or animal communicator.
I don't know who is arguing against regulation/licensing but again, it doesn't make any difference.

J Swan

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:32 PM

As has been stated repeatedly in this thread with examples, there are professions that have difficult and continuing licensing requirements. It DOESN'T MATTER. As far as the veterinary practice act is concernced, they're all the same, whether dentist, chiropractor, acupuncturist, massage therapist, aromatherapist, or animal communicator.
I don't know who is arguing against regulation/licensing but again, it doesn't make any difference.

It does matter, and it does make a difference. Because these professions have yet to organize and establish themselves as an entity capable of self regulation, they are unable to advocate for themselves in the legislature. Becoming such an entity takes time and a great deal of leadership at the local/state level.

Again, I'll state that the folks who are vociferous in their opinion that the veterinary community is out to get them - are the ones unable to withstand scrutiny.

Ghazzu

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:33 PM

who's going to protect the consumer from the lousy vets?

Last time I checked, there were boards of registration (possible variation in names depending on the state) who were charged with just that very mission.

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:35 PM

Last time I checked, there were boards of registration (possible variation in names depending on the state) who were charged with just that very mission.

Are these boards populated by massage therapists, herbalists, and dentists?

Huntertwo

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:36 PM

Maybe they're trying to protect the consumer from fake practitioners who could potentially do more harm than good?

Yes, it reminds me of the people who went out, bought Dental equipment and labeled themselves Equine Dentists..:no:

deltawave

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:37 PM

As to the 'burden' being on the practitioners - how hard is it to understand that their profession has been outlawed? So, from what position do they undertake this burden?

Probably this battle is going to have to take place on a legislative level. That means organization, standardization, cooperation amongst widely variable disciplines, and some attempt at creating a level playing field. None of which, in the end, are really bad things to have going on. I'm sorry for those practitioners who have found themselves squeezed, but going back to the OP, other than a cry to WAKE UP, what is being DONE about this by these practitioners?

Ghazzu

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:41 PM

Oh right, the good vets are protecting us from the bad vets. So that approach should work for all the alternative practitioners too. At least, they would know something about the alternative practice.

I don't know about your state, but in mine, the state board has 2 members who are veterinarians and two lay members.

J Swan

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:42 PM

Probably this battle is going to have to take place on a legislative level. That means organization, standardization, cooperation amongst widely variable disciplines, and some attempt at creating a level playing field. None of which, in the end, are really bad things to have going on. I'm sorry for those practitioners who have found themselves squeezed, but going back to the OP, other than a cry to WAKE UP, what is being DONE about this by these practitioners?

Exactly! Horse owners don't need to wake up - it's in our interest to be able to verify credentials, check for disciplinary action, and require the same level of professionalism and education as we do other professionals we hire. By education I don't mean a formal one - each occupation is free to determine their own standards. Some might be formal, other apprenticeships, OJT - whatever.

It's also in the best interest of these folks as well. By establishing themselves as a true profession, they can obtain the insurance so necessary these days, charge professional rates, and be treated as colleagues by veterinarians. It can be a good thing. But you have to have really good leadership. It's crucial.

Ghazzu

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:42 PM

Are these boards populated by massage therapists, herbalists, and dentists?

Check your own state--in mine, as I said above, there are currently 2 veterinary members and two non-veterinary members. They are volunteers, appointed by the governor, and interested parties are encouraged to participate.

There are currently 2 openings in MA for appointment to the board of registration for massage therapists.

MassageLady

Feb. 29, 2008, 04:52 PM

Exactly! Horse owners don't need to wake up - it's in our interest to be able to verify credentials, check for disciplinary action, and require the same level of professionalism and education as we do other professionals we hire. By education I don't mean a formal one - each occupation is free to determine their own standards. Some might be formal, other apprenticeships, OJT - whatever.

It's also in the best interest of these folks as well. By establishing themselves as a true profession, they can obtain the insurance so necessary these days, charge professional rates, and be treated as colleagues by veterinarians. It can be a good thing. But you have to have really good leadership. It's crucial
There are courses everyone takes to become a farrier, dentist, massage therapist, etc. in order to become Certified in that profession. They have attended schools to learn what is necessary to perform that job correctly. There are Associations that most of them belong to, and can purchase liability insurance. The IAAMB is one I am a member of, and listed on there as a School. Yes, we have Associations, but as far as being in politics, we're not. We want to help the animals get better..plain and simple. Then we get this slapped in our faces! The vets reaching over and grabbing up what we have been doing for years and saying 'only they're allowed to do it now'. When they haven't studied it, nor do they plan on studying it!
Those that don't use it, fine...but those that do are having their choice taken away by money grubbing people.
http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-2391.html

merrygoround

Feb. 29, 2008, 05:03 PM

Exactly,
Alternative practicioners also hoof trimmers take a look at my signature line. Click on the page for Allied Equine Trades. We have room for everybody who works with horses in any capacity.

In my state we had an Amishman prosecuted for gelding a horse. This problem is very real.
George

And what exactly did he use for anesthesia? and how well was he prepared in case of hemorrhage?

I have seen a"dentist", with two rusty floats, and a chain shank, "floating" the teeth of a horse owned by the stupidest creature on earth.

I have seen a :horseshoer" shoe a horse with a huge crack up the center of his toe with a backwards shoe. Different ignorant owner.

You are perfectly welcome to "certify" these people. :o

JHUshoer20

Feb. 29, 2008, 05:21 PM

I have seen a"dentist", with two rusty floats, and a chain shank, "floating" the teeth of a horse owned by the stupidest creature on earth.

I have seen a :horseshoer" shoe a horse with a huge crack up the center of his toe with a backwards shoe. Different ignorant owner.

You are perfectly welcome to "certify" these people. :o

Not quite sure what your getting at here. Obviously you're proving the point that the general public is incapable of making intelligent hiring decisions.

Licensing, at least for horseshoers anyway would be in the public interest. It would protect people from themselves and best of all eliminate the least common denominator. This would ultimately be in the best interest of the horses. That is what everyone should be in favor of.

NOT giving control of all horse care to the vets. A power grab is all that is.
George

EqTrainer

Feb. 29, 2008, 06:11 PM

Maybe they're trying to protect the consumer from fake practitioners who could potentially do more harm than good?

Oh please. Do you really believe this? If it were true, the vets who are mad about equine dentists would actually learn to do teeth worth a damn instead of bitching about someone else doing them and getting the money. We see that here regularly. Only one vet practice has actually put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, by requiring their vets to attend dentistry school.

This is just one example.

Consumers want whoever is the BEST at what they need done and that should be their perogative to decide... not someone elses. It is amusing to me that these issues always revolve around NOT ALLOWING someone to do something; rather than actually having some sort of system that sorts out who is qualifed and who isn't. If it worked that way, a whole lot of vets would flunk right out of being allowed to do teeth :lol:

MassageLady

Feb. 29, 2008, 06:23 PM

And what exactly did he use for anesthesia? and how well was he prepared in case of hemorrhage?

I have seen a"dentist", with two rusty floats, and a chain shank, "floating" the teeth of a horse owned by the stupidest creature on earth.

I have seen a :horseshoer" shoe a horse with a huge crack up the center of his toe with a backwards shoe. Different ignorant owner.

You are perfectly welcome to "certify" these people.
And I know of a vet around here that has no business being one...yet they LICENSED her anyway...you are perfectly welcome to hire her for your horse, since she IS licensed-I guess that means she's good.:lol:
Were those people Certified? I'm guessing no...just learned on the side somehow.
NOT giving control of all horse care to the vets. A power grab is all that is.:yes:

cyberbay

Feb. 29, 2008, 07:13 PM

Geez, all I saw from the OP is that some states appear to be pushing to have all healing modalities delivered by a veterinarian only. It had nothing to do with licensing, which 99.9% of people support. The practitioners in these modalities already are licensed--this step is already a done deal--and the OP was simply bringing to everyone's attention that these practitioners' livelihoods are at stake. And horses' well-being is being jeopardized.

Deltawave, you used the term 'conspiracy theory' to insinuate that anyone who thinks that some forces beyond just the obvious could be behind such legislation. It's not conspiratorial at all -- it's right out there, and people have to be just plain naive to have no clue as to why suddenly such legislation comes along. It's simply in human nature to want to corner the market, and while you may not act upon that impulse, there are more than a few who do. They're called lobbyists; maximizers of shareholder return; etc. etc. (Anyhooo, it doesn't help the conversation to use inflammatory words for a perfectly valid viewpoint -- often quite legitimate -- even though you don't agree with it...)

There is NO valid reason to have a vet deliver every modality, and if you were to ask most vets, they would shudder to know that they would have to be experienced in so many areas. What a nightmare.

And, talk about the customer being ripped off!! I would feel sincerely ripped off if I had to use a vet to do massage therapy when he practises that modality maybe once a month--and hardly that if it's foaling season, or competition season, or surgery time, or... Wow, what a great way to rip off the consumer with the utterly mediocre abilities in the alternative treatments.

Hah! All it will do is have a lot of savvy horsepeople continuing to work with the practitioners they respect the most and feel are the most competent. They'll figure out a way to compensate them. No way to regulate that. And, yes, charlatans will continue to find a home because people are gullible. Always will be.

In CA, apparently, vets have to prescribe if a animal owner wants to try an 'alternative' therapy. Get a script, call up your alt-prac of choice. They do not have to be vets in addition to the therapies they specialize in.

J Swan

Feb. 29, 2008, 07:14 PM

Yes, we have Associations, but as far as being in politics, we're not. We want to help the animals get better..plain and simple. Then we get this slapped in our faces! The vets reaching over and grabbing up what we have been doing for years and saying 'only they're allowed to do it now'. When they haven't studied it, nor do they plan on studying it!
Those that don't use it, fine...but those that do are having their choice taken away by money grubbing people.
http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-2391.html

Well, guess what. No one else wanted to get involved in politics, either. It's necessary if you want to protect your interests.

Every profession has to advocate for itself. Since you appear to be so passionate about this (understandably) then perhaps this is an opportunity to be a leader; an advocate. A voice of reason.

I'm sorry - I'm just not into complaining that something isn't fair and asking other people to fight my battle.

If you feel your profession is being unfairly maligned, or is a pawn in some sort of political machinations in the legislature - then DO SOMETHING. Form your own lobby. Don't know how? Find out. Learn. Join Toastmasters to learn how to speak in public. Meet with your state reps to discuss your associations position. Work with your state vet lobby to compromise.

My suggestion would be that when you advocate for yourself, you refrain from using terms such as "money grubbing". Or that everyone is out to get you. No one likes to deal with nutcases. Even if you have excellent points (and you do), people just won't listen.

Or - you can continue on your present path. But I doubt you will get anywhere.

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 07:30 PM

I'm sorry - I'm just not into complaining that something isn't fair and asking other people to fight my battle.
The consumer has a stake in this too.

If you feel your profession is being unfairly maligned, or is a pawn in some sort of political machinations in the legislature - then DO SOMETHING. Form your own lobby. Don't know how? Find out. Learn. Join Toastmasters to learn how to speak in public. Meet with your state reps to discuss your associations position. Work with your state vet lobby to compromise.

and presumably take a leave of abscence from one's profession while doing all this, and survive by ????

J Swan

Feb. 29, 2008, 07:36 PM

The consumer has a stake in this too.

and presumably take a leave of abscence from one's profession while doing all this, and survive by ????

Unsaddle the drama llama, Lookout. You don't need to take a leave of absence, wear a hair shirt, or sell your body on a streetcorner to make ends meet. Though you may have to if your current profession is outlawed.

Becoming active in your profession is very common. Doctors do it, so do paralegals, lawyers, cpa's, chemists, just about everyone. People get together over coffee, around the kitchen table, meet with their state reps, and it's all done when we can fit it into our schedules.

You can too. You can be a leader. Some people become leaders by default - no one else wants to step up to the plate. Others see an opportunity to be a strong voice for change and grab it.

Or, you can sit in a corner and pout that it's too hard.

Up to you.

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 07:41 PM

Unsaddle the drama llama, Lookout. You don't need to take a leave of absence, wear a hair shirt, or sell your body on a streetcorner to make ends meet. Though you may have to if your current profession is outlawed.

Becoming active in your profession is very common. Doctors do it, so do paralegals, lawyers, cpa's, chemists, just about everyone.

[/quote]
Not to the extent that would be required in order to reverse current laws already in place let alone get new ones passed. Those professions are not being threatened with being outlawed. What you are describing is a full time job. People that do this for a living are called lobbyists and are paid millions of dollars per year. The only reason vets were able to put the veterinary practice act into law was because of the funding provided by the pharmaceutical companies and the subsequent jobs that were promised.

JHUshoer20

Feb. 29, 2008, 07:49 PM

There is NO valid reason to have a vet deliver every modality, and if you were to ask most vets, they would shudder to know that they would have to be experienced in so many areas. What a nightmare.

And, talk about the customer being ripped off!! I would feel sincerely ripped off if I had to use a vet to do massage therapy when he practises that modality maybe once a month--and hardly that if it's foaling season, or competition season, or surgery time, or... Wow, what a great way to rip off the consumer with the utterly mediocre abilities in the alternative treatments.

In CA, apparently, vets have to prescribe if a animal owner wants to try an 'alternative' therapy. Get a script, call up your alt-prac of choice. They do not have to be vets in addition to the therapies they specialize in.
Hey Cyberbay,
This is what it's all about. Of course no vet wants to shoe horses or do massages or whatever. But they have no problem incorporating those services into their practices and then hiring people to do it.

Think of the annual income of a dozen or more horseshoers going into a vets coffers and you can see where the temptation to push these type of laws comes from. Follow the money.

Licensing of all these respective trades would protect them from that. When one is granted a professional or occupational license nobody can stop that licensee from doing what they're licensed to do. In PA and NY Massage people are no longer allowed on the racetrack. They must either be a vet or be WORKING for a vet. If these laws continue they WILL take control of the industry.
George

J Swan

Feb. 29, 2008, 08:00 PM

Oh for God's sake Lookout.

Did I suggest you go out and become a full time lobbyist? You obviously aren't qualified. It's its own profession.

I'm talking about being a leader and a voice within your profession. A unifying voice; a politically savvy voice; and learning how to work with and within your legislature. Both as an individual and as part of a group. And that also means working with the opposition to identify common points, and compromise on others. Reasonably, professionally, and credibly. You start by learning how your legislature works, what the issues are, what the arguments are, and continue to learn, and listen, and develop working relationships with your own state reps.

It's not going to be easy, and it's not supposed to be. You have to learn. I did it - a poster on this BB (NRB) did it, and others do it every darn day.

But nothing is going to change for the better unless someone decides to take the ball and run with it. Perhaps that person is you.

Daydream Believer

Feb. 29, 2008, 08:04 PM

J Swan

Feb. 29, 2008, 08:22 PM

One thing to think of also...NAIS will give vets even more power...the power of enforcement of the law in reporting people in violation with the laws. I am not anti vet but I am very much against taking the choice away from a horse owner on who they can use to provide non veterinary care to their horses.

I think we've correspondend about a new Va law before - the "dog database". When the bill was being hashed out, one might have thought that the veterinary lobby was all for it. They really weren't. It was a bureaucratic nightmare for vets. But - the veterinary lobby didn't oppose the bill; they just asked for the language to be changed so that vets weren't burdened with the recordkeeping tasks. Voila. The lobby protected the interest of veterinarians; though by doing so vets really couldn't bring in more money by charging an administrative or office fee for the recordkeeping. It's not always about money.

The reason I mention it is because the lobby didn't voice any concerns about privacy of veterinary records, nor did it appear concerned with any possible increase in rabies. (rabies has risen since the law passed but it may be coincidental). In that respect, the veterinary lobby failed the public.

On the other hand - they don't represent the public now, do they.

We all have to pay attention. I know a lot of this stuff seems like David and Goliath - but at the state level, there really is an opportunity for us to advocate for ourselves. Whether we're a farrier, massage therapist - it doesn't matter. While I personally loathe politics, I make it a point to know exactly who is doing what to whom in our legislature. (on the issues that are important to me)

NRB did a great job advocating for a bill that she put together herself, got a sponsor - and was heard. She gets a kewpie doll for that one!

Lookout seems like an intelligent person, as does MassageLady. There is no reason to doubt that either of them could suddenly discover that they are capable of being a leader, forming a group, developing a consensus and then making things happen.

You just have to decide to do it.

cyberbay

Feb. 29, 2008, 08:29 PM

Maybe I missed the OP's point? Sorry, maybe I didn't read closely enough, but I thought she said that these alt practitioners would now have to be a vet in order to practice these modalities.

Are the states that offer licensing going to rescind that licensing and make those practitioners, if they want to do their line of work, become an employee of a vet practice?

So, if this is true, is the next best step to get mandatory licensing in place for these practitioners, to protect them from 'predators'?

JHUshoer20

Feb. 29, 2008, 08:48 PM

Are the states that offer licensing going to rescind that licensing and make those practitioners, if they want to do their line of work, become an employee of a vet practice?

So, if this is true, is the next best step to get mandatory licensing in place for these practitioners, to protect them from 'predators'?

To my knowledge there is no licensing for any of these things in any state outside of pari-mutual jurisdictions. And as I said because of the vet practice acts in NY and PA people of those occupations can no longer be licensed unless their working for a vet.

Horseshoers were licensed in the State of Illinois from about 1915 intil the early 1980's. During that time it worked great there as far as ensuring only competent horseshoers were able to serve the public and none of us ever saw a badly shod horse come out of Illinois. It was a good law that should have spread to other states.

Now unbeknownst to most people no schooling, training, testing, or licensing is required of horseshoers in any state. We are the only people I can think of who work with live tissue that have nothing in the way of testing.
George

Lookout

Feb. 29, 2008, 08:50 PM

We all have to pay attention. I know a lot of this stuff seems like David and Goliath - but at the state level, there really is an opportunity for us to advocate for ourselves. Whether we're a farrier, massage therapist - it doesn't matter. While I personally loathe politics, I make it a point to know exactly who is doing what to whom in our legislature. (on the issues that are important to me)

Maybe in your state. As a resident of one of the largest and most populous states, not to mention famously the most corrupt, the possibility of my meeting for coffee with my state legislator is about as likely as meeting with the Dalai Lama. Not without bearing the requisite gifts, which I do not have. Not to mention that getting there and back alone would be an 8 hr trip. The new governor elected in the last election rode to his victory on the promise of change and dealing with these corrupt legislators and he has gotten NONE of his agenda passed. There are too many ingrained special interests in the pockets of these 'legislators'. The scale would be similar to something like the slaughter bill or the mustang bill and look how much trouble those keep having getting passed. What law did you get changed by meeting for coffee with your legislator - did you get a stop sign replaced with a traffic light? The possibility of my getting a law changed or passed is about as likely as meeting with Jesus Christ.

pandorasboxx

Feb. 29, 2008, 08:52 PM

Maybe I missed the OP's point? Sorry, maybe I didn't read closely enough, but I thought she said that these alt practitioners would now have to be a vet in order to practice these modalities.

My guess it may be that some versions would allow practioners of alternative modalties to be under the supervision of a veterinarian, rather than be a vet. Therefore, those who work for the vet practice would fall within the legal constraints.

The skincare clinic I use is run by a physician. However, many of the offered services are done by a licensed aethestician or a nurse. No doctor is usually in the room but is "technically" overseeing the procedures.

silver2

Feb. 29, 2008, 08:56 PM

To my knowledge there is no licensing for any of these things in any state outside of pari-mutual jurisdictions
This is not true. In CA you must be trained licensed to do horse massage. In florida to be a dentist etc. etc. etc. read the numerous examples posted in the thread.

Again, people who have have been successfully running legal businesses for YEARS are now felons. All by the passing of a special interest law.

An analogy for human medicine would be if someone passed a law that said all masseuses had to be MDs. Thousands of massage therapists would be out of work or forced to work illegally. That would also suck for me as a consumer, because I get a bimonthly massage for $60 a pop. I pay my GP aout $100 to see me for 8 minutes, imagine what a massage by an MD would cost? $1000?

Appassionato

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:03 PM

No offense, but can masseuses be compared to MDs?

FWIW, I'm for certification of various "professions." As deltawave mentioned, there are too many folks out there that are hacks.

EqTrainer

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:04 PM

This is not true. In CA you must be trained licensed to do horse massage. In florida to be a dentist etc. etc. etc. read the numerous examples posted in the thread.

Again, people who have have been successfully running legal businesses for YEARS are now felons. All by the passing of a special interest law.

An analogy for human medicine would be if someone passed a law that said all masseuses had to be MDs. Thousands of massage therapists would be out of work or forced to work illegally. That would also suck for me as a consumer, because I get a bimonthly massage for $60 a pop. I pay my GP aout $100 to see me for 8 minutes, imagine what a massage by an MD would cost? $1000?

EXACTLY. Caring for a horse *well* is already very expensive. I figure once the vets add in their markup for "supervising to be sure we, the consumer, aren't being ripped off :lol:" most people will no longer be able to afford to get their horse chiro'd, massaged or accupunctured. As usual, the horse will suffer, the wealthy will be able to maintain what they already have and the other wealthies will get wealthier off of them.

Not to mention, if they can get the farriers controlled the same way, you will have to haul your horse to them to have them done. Again, who can afford to do this? Only the very wealthy.

JHUshoer20

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:11 PM

No offense, but can masseuses be compared to MDs?

FWIW, I'm for certification of various "professions." As deltawave mentioned, there are too many folks out there that are hacks.

Certification at least as far as horseshoers go has proven itself to be a failure. It is a title that clubs bestow upon themselves and has no legal standing. It was brought about as a compromise measure to derail the idea of licensing.

It did do that but no demand for certified horseshoers has ever been or ever will be created by it.

Compulsory testing and licensing is the way to go. Just as I wouldn't want to fly with an untested, unlicensed pilot, or be treated by an untested, unlicensed doctor, I think people's horses ought to be afforded the same protections.
George

J Swan

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:13 PM

What law did you get changed by meeting for coffee with your legislator - did you get a stop sign replaced with a traffic light? The possibility of my getting a law changed or passed is about as likely as meeting with Jesus Christ.

Bravo, Lookout.

You have the bad taste to respond to a compliment and attempt to help with a personal insult. Not that I care, mind you. But it is in very poor taste.

Appassionato

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:15 PM

Being very honest here EqTrainer, what makes you think you will fail (not just you, others that trim other horses and etc.)? I have to ask because we took Bo up one week after Bo's hinds were trimmed by Michelel; Jaye asked how long it had been since his hinds were trimmed (we try to do within a week of fronts being shod for Bo's comfort)...I found this strange since I thought they looked great, and Michele answered him, "Saturday a week ago." He nodded his head in approvement and said, "That's good work." I adore and am thankful for my friend Michele, but Jaye said very confidently that she did nice work. I would just bet you could too. is certification/liscensing that frightening? I have to ask, because as you know there are so many hacks out there. I'm not arguing with you, actually the opposite: I have faith in you. And I don't have much faith in people and hooves. That's really hard-earned with me, as you already know. ;)

quiet5

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:27 PM

Well put--after all, before 1970, no one heard of acupuncture for humans, let alone equines (at least here in CA --the supposed birthplace of the crack-pot lifestyle). In the early 1970s, the more active acupuncturists worked with some state representatives to get laws on the books that outlined the licensure of that practice. That should happen for these other alt-care therapies...

The "not fake" practitioners may have to organize themselves, begin a process of regulation, accreditation, and credentialing just like every other professional who "cares for" someone or something. These same processes are designed to protect the consumer from lousy vets, hairdressers, acupuncturists and anything else. Is the system perfect? No, but it beats no system at all, wherein anyone with a half-baked idea and a good sales pitch can set themselves up as a "practitioner". The brilliant and the competent can no more be above the rules than are the crackpots and the crooks.

Appassionato

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:28 PM

Certification at least as far as horseshoers go has proven itself to be a failure. It is a title that clubs bestow upon themselves and has no legal standing. It was brought about as a compromise measure to derail the idea of licensing.

It did do that but no demand for certified horseshoers has ever been or ever will be created by it.

Compulsory testing and licensing is the way to go. Just as I wouldn't want to fly with an untested, unlicensed pilot, or be treated by an untested, unlicensed doctor, I think people's horses ought to be afforded the same protections.
George

Mr. Geist, if it's the association I'm thinking of, you're correct! From my given understandings as a former pre-med (now looking elsewhere, med school doesn't feel right at this time), liscensing for doctors is still pretty intense. That's why I questioned the masseuses vs. MDs comparison. I know what it takes just to get IN to med school...massage isn't as hard. Sorry, but true.

But, I do hear your argument. And agree! The certification/liscensing has to mean something. Furthermore, stiffer penalties on horse owners providing less than average care for their animals. I'm not talking about a horse without a mark on it in a pasture fenced in barbed wire, either. I'm talking about starvation (good luck reporting that in my area) as well as true abuse/neglect in many other forms. Granted, I'm going to hear my case might have been an abuse case and fine. but under a vet's care? When that's the argument to start with? vets actually knowing something about something? And I've been to bad vets...we all have...

MistyBlue

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:31 PM

We want to help the animals get better..plain and simple. Then we get this slapped in our faces! The vets reaching over and grabbing up what we have been doing for years and saying 'only they're allowed to do it now'. When they haven't studied it, nor do they plan on studying it!
Those that don't use it, fine...but those that do are having their choice taken away by money grubbing people.

Not to quibble but this seems a bit odd seeing as on your website you offer a 6 day course for $900 and at the end of 6 short days...the student is a certified equine masage therapist. And the first day consists of teaching a newbie who's obviously not used to horses how to appraoch and lead a horse. Correct me if I'm wrong in this assumption...but is this to mean that someone so new to horses that they have to be taught how to appraoch and lead a horse...how to properly wrap a horse leg, etc will be actually certified to charge people as a massage therapist? And the current certification is fine? And the vets are money grubbing? :eek:
FWIW...I know at least 5 vets in my state that are licensed vets *and* do chiro, massage, acupuncture and other holistic practices. I have yet to meet a single vet who can't properly float teeth. And also do equine dental surgery.
Do I want someone who took a few day or few week course doing anything at all to my horse? Hell no. Not trimming feet. Not doing dental. Not adjusting them or massaging them. I want an actual vet who can then address any possible issues or side effects. I think it's a far better idea to pressure vets to learn to perform the holistic services than to continue to allow the plethora of really bad and really dangerous uneducated hacks out there who hang up a shingle and pronounce themselves open for business. On this BB we're far too used to the more savvy and experienced horse folks...because that's what this BB is heavily populated by. The VAST majority or horse owners out there in this country are not on this BB and many are very casual owners. They will not think twice about saving income by calling Uncle Bob's Tooth Yankers or Aunt Patty's Massage With Happy Ending...who charge 1/8 of what a vet will and have a very high chance of injuring their horse badly due to lack of education and experience.
The vets are against many of the "certified" practices because they know these certifications take only a few days and are hardly able to turn out experienced safe practitioners in that time and are probably sick of owners then needing them out ASAP to fix Thunder after some hack screwed him up.
Sure...there are plenty of good holistic practitioners out there. Unfortunately there are 10x that amount of crappy morons doing more harm than good. If this is what it takes to get rid of all those bad ones...then so be it. It's for the greater good. And all horse folks should agree that what helps the *most* horses might be a little more important than their own problems with this. Those of you good ones aren't seeing the vast numbers of bad ones and the horses they mess up...it's best for horses all around.
And FWIW...I lobby. I do have coffee and I do go to meetings and I do all that fun lobbying stuff. (okay, it's not really fun) I'm not getting paid at all for it. The percentage of people lobbying that make millions are about 1-2% of them. The rest of us do what we think is right and work towards it because we're damn sick and tired of the whining complainers who'd rather crab online about it rather than getting off their duffs and doing something about it. And yes...my lobbying has made changes. Bigger ones than street signs. That have saved animals and made state law changes. So go out and learn to lobby. I'm not saying go try taking on OPEC :winkgrin:...but for whatever is important to you...one person can indeed make changes. :yes:

J Swan

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:36 PM

As usual, Mistyblue, you said what I could not manage to spit out. And with much more elegance.

Appassionato

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:42 PM

Agreed with MistyBlue as well!

JHUshoer20

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:46 PM

I think is important to note the main aim of this. It is at horse dentists.

It was not that long ago that many if not most vets referred you to a dentist for dental work. Mainly because most were better at it being specialists. Secondly that was too much like manual labor to a vet.

Now they can more easily do it with power floats. In addition, a lousy dentist can wreak a lot of havoc with a power float thus it was easy for vets to create the perception that this was needed.

Horseshoers have been temporarily excluded from these laws because we're the only ones who will make any noise. Other trades are too small and disorganized to matter. My attempts to get horseshoers to defend other trades has fallen on deaf ears.

Eventually they'll come for us and nobody will be left to speak. I firmly believe we're what their after. It would be profitable enough to arouse anybody's greed.
George

silver2

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:48 PM

No offense, but can masseuses be compared to MDs?
No they can't. That's my POINT. Please re-read for comprehension.

Appassionato

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:51 PM

No they can't. That's my POINT. Please re-read for comprehension.

*I* should read for comprehension??? You're kidding, right?

MistyBlue

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:55 PM

FWIW George...I don't think farriers should be included in this. I do think all people working on horse feet have to be extensively certified with continuing education requirements and testing though. :yes:
But...I don't know a *single* vet who wants to be in the farrier business too. They don't want to shoe our horses...they barely have time to keep up with the injuries and illnesses.
My farrier is a CJF...he's wonderful at what he does and knows as much (if not more) about lameness and mechanics of the hoof than any vet I know. Actually...you probably have chatted with him a time or two on the horseshoe forums.

Appassionato

Feb. 29, 2008, 09:59 PM

It was not that long ago that many if not most vets referred you to a dentist for dental work. Mainly because most were better at it being specialists. Secondly that was too much like manual labor to a vet.

Now they can more easily do it with power floats. In addition, a lousy dentist can wreak a lot of havoc with a power float thus it was easy for vets to create the perception that this was needed.

I miss having an equine dentist for my horse! And you are right, a hack of any kind is that, a hack.

Horseshoers have been temporarily excluded from these laws because we're the only ones who will make any noise. Other trades are too small and disorganized to matter. My attempts to get horseshoers to defend other trades has fallen on deaf ears.

Not necessarily. I've only spoken to a few farriers, though. ;)

Eventually they'll come for us and nobody will be left to speak. I firmly believe we're what their after. It would be profitable enough to arouse anybody's greed.

You'll have a job again soon if such were to happen. Anyone that trims a hoof will agree it's harder work than it appears. My guy? HARD work. :winkgrin:

JHUshoer20

Feb. 29, 2008, 10:01 PM

FWIW George...I don't think farriers should be included in this. I do think all people working on horse feet have to be extensively certified with continuing education requirements and testing though. :yes: On that we're in agreement. Difference being I'm for mandatory testing and licensing. Voluntary certification that most horse owners don't care about just doesn't cut it.

But...I don't know a *single* vet who wants to be in the farrier business too. They don't want to shoe our horses...they barely have time to keep up with the injuries and illnesses. Never said they did. I doubt that they'd turn down the scheduling and booking end of it though

My farrier is a CJF...he's wonderful at what he does and knows as much (if not more) about lameness and mechanics of the hoof than any vet I know. Actually...you probably have chatted with him a time or two on the horseshoe forums.
If he goes on there I probably have.
George

Appassionato

Feb. 29, 2008, 10:01 PM

Appassionato

Feb. 29, 2008, 10:05 PM

Voluntary certification that most horse owners don't care about just doesn't cut it.

In that respect, I'm all for revoking ownership of horses. Callous as that may seem, I also have my reasons. Lord knows I'm willing to pay for my trimmer of Bo's hinds certification/liscensing. Why aren't others? Oh wait, they are probably being cheap again...hmmm...:winkgrin:

JHUshoer20

Feb. 29, 2008, 10:18 PM

In that respect, I'm all for revoking ownership of horses. Callous as that may seem, I also have my reasons. Lord knows I'm willing to pay for my trimmer of Bo's hinds certification/liscensing. Why aren't others? Oh wait, they are probably being cheap again...hmmm...:winkgrin:
Well, let me put it this way,
In 28 years of doing this for other people I've been asked if I was certified once. Happened to be by a girl that had been to horseshoeing school. ONE TIME!!!!

As far as everybody else there are only 2 questions:
1) What do you cost?
2) When can you get here?

Now, assuming all of you have jobs didn't all of your employers demand some kind of credentials when you all got hired?

Why as our employers do you not demand it of us? Most of you when in need of a horseshoer ask your friends who their using and thats about all the criteria you look for. Any of you ever think of that? Is this a good way to make decisions? Remember what all our mothers told us about doing stuff because our friends did right?

This by the way is the same little spiel I give to riding clubs and youth groups when I talk to them. It is up to you the owners to demand better. As I said on the other thread you never hear Brits complaining about horseshoers do you?

If any licensing is ever to come about it will require active participation of horse owners.
George

Appassionato

Feb. 29, 2008, 10:28 PM

Well, let me put it this way,
In 28 years of doing this for other people I've been asked if I was certified once. Happened to be by a girl that had been to horseshoeing school. ONE TIME!!!!

Believe it or not, the guy that foundered Bo claimed to be a CJF...he wasn't. I'm ashamed of the fact but I admit for everyone else's sake: in hopes that horse owners will "wake up."

As far as everybody else there are only 2 questions:
1) What do you cost?
2) When can you get here?

Lots of hacks are expensive. Ask me how I know. :winkgrin:

Now, assuming all of you have jobs didn't all of your employers demand some kind of credentials when you all got hired?

But my employers didn't trust me on *claimed* credentials; they checked. Might just be my luck.

Why as our employers do you not demand it of us? Most of you when in need of a horseshoer ask your friends who their using and thats about all the criteria you look for. Any of you ever think of that? Is this a good way to make decisions? Remember what all our mothers told us about doing stuff because our friends did right?

Agreed! You're preaching to the choir!

This by the way is the same little spiel I give to riding clubs and youth groups when I talk to them. It is up to you the owners to demand better. As I said on the other thread you never hear Brits complaining about horseshoers do you?

Actually...I have. I can't remember if it was here or horseshoes. But it's less over there...could it be cultural not to question? I really don't know what's all involved. Americans won't ask, but I will. Only because again, what I've been through.

If any licensing is ever to come about it will require active participation of horse owners.
George

Mark my word, I'll pay for Jaye AND Dave's myself. Michele too. It means that much to me. I might be the wrong person to ask about certification/liscensing though. :lol:

MassageLady

Feb. 29, 2008, 11:10 PM

Because there is no reason to go on and argue and defend my School, I know the students I turn out are fantastic, or they won't be Certified.

EqTrainer

Feb. 29, 2008, 11:10 PM

Ghazzu

Feb. 29, 2008, 11:26 PM

Yes, that's true. And this is why-while they need to know how to approach horses, I also teach that they should have a handler for that horse. I also teach on proper placement of tack/common ailments and what causes them/rehab therapies/and 3 days hands on the horses for massage therapy...which btw is MORE than many other schools give in their 5 day class! Nobody else teaches the safety/tack fitting/riding aspect of the possibility of the rider causing the problem. Nobody else teaches any kind of rehab therapy either. The 3 day class also has the people around the horses, I teach them how to be safe while working on them, where to stand, where not to stand, and how to do a full body massage. Where to work where not to work. What a spasm looks and feels like, and soreness in a horse. I keep my classes small so that I can keep a close eye on everyone. No other schools give any of this-and they also accept people with no horse knowledge-and will Certify them. I will only Certify people that I believe will be good enough to do this work! I refuse to send people out there, with MY Certification, doing poor work! If they don't pass the class, they can come back for free to another. Again, no other school will allow that either.

I'll limit my comments by saying that, after reading your rant about underqualified veterinarians, the description of the rigorous training that your certificate holders undergo made wine come out my nose.

McVillesMom

Mar. 1, 2008, 12:20 AM

Ghazzu, I love you. :D

tarynls

Mar. 1, 2008, 01:05 AM

And I know of a vet around here that has no business being one...yet they LICENSED her anyway...you are perfectly welcome to hire her for your horse, since she IS licensed-I guess that means she's good.:lol:
Were those people Certified? I'm guessing no...just learned on the side somehow.
:yes:

Since veterinary school is MUCH more difficult to gain acceptance to than HUMAN medical school - and national/state boards aren't exactly set up to give a passing score to those who think "veterinary medicine is Cool! I get to play with animals all day!"..... Having said that, yes, I have had a run-in with one particular vet that will never touch my horse again, yet others rave about this person. I chalked it up to personality conflict - we are all human after all - and entitled to our feelings.

Just remember, in both human and veterinary medicine - one person graduated first in their class, one graduated last - and yet they are both called "Doctor".

My point is: Re: Farriers - BIG DEAL if they are licensed or certified. What IS a big deal is the quality of their work. They put their work where their mouth (or more accurately, wallet) is. It is how they make their living. This is coming from a person whose boyfriend is an AFA certified farrier - has been shoeing (mostly therapeutic work) for 18 years. Attends conferences (often more than two/three yearly around the country) to keep up-to-date on new techniques, useful products (if nothing else, just to see what's out there so he equipped to answer clients' questions about the new ad they saw in XYZ magazine. If he feels a client's horse may benefit from something new, then yes, he will try it).

Re: your post following: Please don't tell me you "certify" people to massage horses after only three days of hands-on work (assuming they pass your test)??? Is an apprenticeship of sorts required? I would personally run far, far away from someone that has only has their hands on a horse under instruction for three days (without other massage experience). I wouldn't care what certification they had.

Horse owners need to become more educated IMO and look past the fancy certifications etc. and take stock in the quality of the provider's WORK and genuine CARE for the horse.

Just my 0.02.

Originally Posted by MassageLady
Yes, that's true. And this is why-while they need to know how to approach horses, I also teach that they should have a handler for that horse. I also teach on proper placement of tack/common ailments and what causes them/rehab therapies/and 3 days hands on the horses for massage therapy...which btw is MORE than many other schools give in their 5 day class! Nobody else teaches the safety/tack fitting/riding aspect of the possibility of the rider causing the problem. Nobody else teaches any kind of rehab therapy either. The 3 day class also has the people around the horses, I teach them how to be safe while working on them, where to stand, where not to stand, and how to do a full body massage. Where to work where not to work. What a spasm looks and feels like, and soreness in a horse. I keep my classes small so that I can keep a close eye on everyone. No other schools give any of this-and they also accept people with no horse knowledge-and will Certify them. I will only Certify people that I believe will be good enough to do this work! I refuse to send people out there, with MY Certification, doing poor work! If they don't pass the class, they can come back for free to another. Again, no other school will allow that either.

JHUshoer20

Mar. 1, 2008, 08:07 AM

Believe it or not, the guy that foundered Bo claimed to be a CJF...he wasn't. I'm ashamed of the fact but I admit for everyone else's sake: in hopes that horse owners will "wake up."
Another failure of certification. I didn't used to think of that much but evidently this stuff is happening quite a bit out there. Is nothing that can really be done about it either. If unlicensed in a place where required he'd be looking at big fines and possibly jail time.

Lots of hacks are expensive. Ask me how I know. :winkgrin:
Yeah I know. A good line of BS goes a long way in this trade.

But my employers didn't trust me on *claimed* credentials; they checked. Might just be my luck.
Good on them. They did their jobs then.

Actually...I have. I can't remember if it was here or horseshoes. But it's less over there...could it be cultural not to question? I really don't know what's all involved. Americans won't ask, but I will. Only because again, what I've been through.
Good on you too. If more owners would it would help.

Mark my word, I'll pay for Jaye AND Dave's myself. Michele too. It means that much to me. I might be the wrong person to ask about certification/liscensing though. :lol:
As far as licensing goes horseshoers are for it by a large majority. Those who are opposed comprise no more than 10% but are very loud about it thereby cowing everybody else into silence.

Those who lead the charge against it tend to be school owners, manufacturers, suppliers, seems everything but working horseshoers. Answer is obvious. These people have a vested financial interest in having a disgracefully high rate of turnover in the trade. A change in that would adversely affect them.

OTOH certification would have been a good compromise if it would have worked as it should have. As we've seen no demand was created amongst most horse owners. A good number of horseshoers have attempted to make certification into something elitist which it was never intended to be and have turned many of their compatriots against it. As a result we now have constant non-stop arguing about it as I'm sure you've seen. Question then becomes how can owners support certification when we don't even support it ourselves?
George

Daydream Believer

Mar. 1, 2008, 08:15 AM

Since veterinary school is MUCH more difficult to gain acceptance to than HUMAN medical school - and national/state boards aren't exactly set up to give a passing score to those who think "veterinary medicine is Cool! I get to play with animals all day!"..... Having said that, yes, I have had a run-in with one particular vet that will never touch my horse again, yet others rave about this person. I chalked it up to personality conflict - we are all human after all - and entitled to our feelings.

Just remember, in both human and veterinary medicine - one person graduated first in their class, one graduated last - and yet they are both called "Doctor".

My point is: Re: Farriers - BIG DEAL if they are licensed or certified. What IS a big deal is the quality of their work. They put their work where their mouth (or more accurately, wallet) is. It is how they make their living. .

I really feel much the same. I know some vets who I would not let near my horses at all. I knew one in NY that was outright neglectful in how the horses on her farm were cared for...stalls not cleaned for weeks, not fed properly, dangerous equipment laying around for horses to get hurt on, and I know of at least one horse she killed by improper anesthesia...I was there when it happened. This Vet still practices last I heard. :no: Graduated near the top of her class too...if you can believe that.

I'm a CPA and I know of other CPA's who are not competent enough to do basic tax work or balance a ledger. Titles really mean very little to me as I've seen how little it actually helps.

I've also known certified farriers and trimmers who I'd not use either as the quality of their work was not acceptable. A piece of paper or letters after someone's name is no guarantee of quality work.

MassageLady

Mar. 1, 2008, 08:41 AM

I'll limit my comments by saying that, after reading your rant about underqualified veterinarians, the description of the rigorous training that your certificate holders undergo made wine come out my nose.
I'd like to know what a child is doing drinking wine, because that is what you sound like.:winkgrin:
I am removing my response, because again, I know what I teach, and I feel no reason to defend it. Many other Massage Schools are also 5 day...and are also turning out great MT's.

MistyBlue

Mar. 1, 2008, 08:47 AM

But would you allow a person not a CPA to handle your tax issues? Would you feel comfortable using someone who took a week long course on tax to work with/for you?
Nobody is saying that all licensed practitioners of anything are the best there is. But there are *far* less bad apples licensed than there are bad apples who hung out a shingle after a week long course and do damage.
It's a case of which is the lesser evil...and the unlicensed far outnumber the licensed in those terms.
When it comes to the health of an animal...the people being paid to treat the animals should have more than a short class on how to care for that animal. Period.

MassageLady...that reply doesn't address the question at all unfortunately. :no: Bottom line is...after a mere 6 days and a paltry $900...many of your students are then certified to market themselves as a massage therapist. This is frightening beyond comprehension to me. Not knocking your classes/school...but do you seriously think a student with 6 days under their belts is qualified to diagnose and treat muscle ailments in equines? It would be one thing if people took the classes to be able to recreationally massage their own horses. But to be certified and then become a paid "professional" in 6 short days is just proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that unlicensed people doing medical treatment on horses needs to stop. There is no way on God's green earth a person can learn enough to be a real massage therapist in 6 days. Even if the classes had George Morris, Lendon Grey and the likes as students (people who know horses pretty well) they *still* shouldn't be able to go out and market themselves as a certified massage therapist. When one of the vets I've used learned to do massage therapy...he mentioned to me it was an 18 month course for him. 18 months for a VET to learn it. Someone who can rattle off every muscle and bone in the horse and tell you what it does, where it is and how it affects the animal. It took him 3 years to learn acupuncture and 2 years for chiro.
How does a layperson learn the same things in 6 days? :eek: :no:

JHUshoer20

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:04 AM

But would you allow a person not a CPA to handle your tax issues? Would you feel comfortable using someone who took a week long course on tax to work with/for you? No, never. Defies logic or common sense.

Nobody is saying that all licensed practitioners of anything are the best there is. But there are *far* less bad apples licensed than there are bad apples who hung out a shingle after a week long course and do damage.
Correct

It's a case of which is the lesser evil...and the unlicensed far outnumber the licensed in those terms. Correct

When it comes to the health of an animal...the people being paid to treat the animals should have more than a short class on how to care for that animal. Period. Correct, just as none of us wants to fly with an unlicensed pilot or ride in a bus with an unlicensed driver. Those who work with live tissue of a living breathing animal should be tested and licensed.

On the issue of massage therapists. Some people out there swear by it. Others say it doesn't really do anything one way or the other. Are there charlatans in that trade? Of course! Just as there are in all trades especially in the horse industry. Should vets be allowed to take them over? No! Should they be tested and licensed in their own right? Yes!

As far as this particular trade goes even at worst I don't see any harm coming from it so is nothing that should be worried too much about.
George

MassageLady

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:17 AM

First we never 'diagnose', we do not ever unlicensed people doing medical treatment . This is not a 'medical treatment' it is massage therapy. And yes, it can be learned-it has been learned for years this way, by many many schools.
But would you allow a person not a CPA to handle your tax issues?
Actually the guy who did my taxes for 10yrs was not a CPA.:winkgrin: And for the record...if you don't work on a muscle, or if you forget something, you don't go to jail for it.:winkgrin:

There is no way on God's green earth a person can learn enough to be a real massage therapist in 6 days
EQUISSAGE:
If you only participate in the Equine Massage program, your session will be Monday through Friday.

GEARY WHITING COURSE:
As you will soon see, I cover a lot of subjects in a five-day school.

BRIDGE CREEK RANCH:
The Equine Massage I workshop is a week long

There are many good massage therapists out there working now that have come out of these courses. My School, as I said, has more hands on time than any of these...because I felt that it was important. But just like anything else...you must practice when you get home. Again, the proof is in the pudding.:yes:

MistyBlue

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:29 AM

And my point was...none of those schools are turning out people who should be working on horses. Period. I didn't mean only your school...I brought up your school as an example. But overall...*no* school should churn out Certified Equine Massage Therapists in a week. It is impossible for them to learn enough to be safe to use.
All that's happened is that you've compared yourself to others who do the same thing. How about comparing them or yourself to the vets I know who've had to take classes for 18 months to do the same things? (after already being a licensed vet)
Using your own kudos on your own website is hardly making an argument for yourself. Nobody who's paid $900 in hopes of having a money making job is going to complain about the short and cheap class that gave them the chance to make more money. Your quote was from a person who was thrilled with the cheapness of your school and how fast they learned.
Can the folks graduating name every single muscle in the horse? Can they name every single issue muscle problems can cause? Can they name all the bones and how and where each muscle attaches? They learn all that in 7 days? Really?

deltawave

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:59 AM

While once again stating that I'm in agreement that restricting the practice of alternative therapies to vets only is nuts, in my opinion, I also have to say once again that this appears to be a VERY MESSY situation you all find yourselves in, and it's not one that's going to lend itself to a resolution simply by a bunch of misdirected anger, paranoia, hand-wringing and "woe unto us" stuff.

Vets are here to stay. Alternative therapy is here to stay. The two almost certainly CAN and SHOULD peacefully coexist. But the burden is on the practitioners. Not the horse owners. Not the vets. That is the way it is. So suck it up, organize, legislate, and be your own advocates. If you want credibility, demonstrate that it is present and accounted for among all your practitioners. Defend yourselves! But don't get all up in arms or defensive if a lot of people are surprised at what constitutes "accreditation" or "certification". A one-week course in ANYTHING, I don't care if it's typing, car-washing, or learning to blow your nose, is simply not going to carry the same weight as a prolonged course of learning in a related field.

MassageLady

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:18 AM

and it's not one that's going to lend itself to a resolution simply by a bunch of misdirected anger, paranoia, hand-wringing and "woe unto us" stuff.

That's not what this is...this is simply trying to put the word out about something that is going on that the politicians and vets are trying their best to keep secret until the law is passed.
but wouldn't you be upset if your livlihood was threated to the point of where you wouldn't be able to do it without going to school for another 10yrs or more? Especially if you were GOOD at what you did, you had helped hundreds of horses become sound or rideable again? It's 'woe unto the horse', because once again, they are the ones that will suffer.

And wonders never cease DW...I actually agree with your second paragraph.

Blu

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:41 AM

I just wanted to bring up the fact that if you really want change, fight for it and come up with alternatives. At least with registered veterinary technicians, to ease into the change there was a grandfather clause. Meaning that if a veterinary assistant had worked for X number of consecutive years they could study and sit for the state boards and be licensed the same as a person who went to an AVMA accredited program.

Just wanted to bring it up since it seems that there seem to be only extreme options being tossed around by those in "alternative" professions. Calm down. Listen to the great advice being put here about learning to lobby, being active and contacting your legislature. Its not that hard. I dont think anyone said to go have a beer or a coffee with your state senator, if they did by all means correct me, but that is not the only way to make a change.

Since I'm a firm believer in only arguing about something you are accurately aware of (not have read on someones homepage) here is the proposed change to the bill....
http://www.in.gov/apps/lsa/session/billwatch/billinfo?year=2008&session=1&request=getBill&doctype=SB&docno=0316

Lastly, you could always submit a request to change the wording. It seems as though its not clear enough wording to put people out of business. Do they mean "alternative therapy" as prescribing/selling herbals to animal owners (think outside horses people...), massage, dentistry?
Didn't get to read all of these but chart at the bottom of the page is a good summary...
http://www.avma.org/advocacy/state/issues/sr_cavm_exemptions.asp

If you don't like whats being done take action to make a change and stop whining about it on a BB. Get people together in your profession, set up a listserve/means of communication and just do it. Bounce ideas off each other, get a plan and get it done. Sitting back and worrying, pointing fingers and fighting with people who don't make a difference isn't going to help.

Blu

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:45 AM

Somehow my post went up before I was finished editing and etc. The grandfather clause is not a be all end all. It is nonexistent in some states now and in the process of being cut off in others now that a large enough group of registered/licensed technicians are in the workforce. It was just a thought.

From the chart from the AVMA it seems that in some states it is DVM only for things like dentistry and chiropractic work but in others its under direction (meaning DVM asked for it to be done not that they have to be present), and even in some under direct supervision (DVM is there).

Anyway, I could talk about this all day but I have exams to study for. And it seems I ended up taking on everything else lol.

Tory Relic

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:45 AM

Why do you keep quibbling about licensing as if it has any relevance on this discussion?

Well, there are those of us who will not allow someone we do not know work on our horses unless they are licensed. So, I think it is VERY relevant.

As far as "lousy vets" go, everyone has their own opinion of what a "lousy vet" is, and sometimes it's just because the vet in question will not jump to just because that's what the horse owner wants. There are some very ignorant and naive horse owners out there. There a plenty of people who want a magic cure.

The vet doesn't provide it, so alternative people are called in to do the "service." These folks may or may not be legitimate, but I can tell you, if they do not have some sort of recognized accreditation, they aren't touching my horse. Licensing would help weed out some of the "not-legitimate" folks.

And, as someone said, if there aren't enough of these people to band together and have an impact, it tells me two things: 1) there aren't enough of them to form a real profession, and 2), they don't have enough support from their clients for the clients to be willing to go to bat for them by writing their state officials and what not. The time to deal with laws and regulations is BEFORE they are enacted; it is much more difficult to get a law changed than to block it from being passed. If you had a professional organization, you would have someone keeping track of these things.

Ghazzu

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:59 AM

I'd like to know what a child is doing drinking wine, because that is what you sound like.:winkgrin:

Well, like they say, it's never too later to have a happy childhood. :D

Tory Relic

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:04 AM

I'd like to know what a child is doing drinking wine, because that is what you sound like.:winkgrin:

How very professional.....

MassageLady

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:08 AM

Your quote was from a person who was thrilled with the cheapness of your school and how fast they learned.
Actually she said nothing about the 'cheapness' of it, as you have put it. She did say however, that she was happy that she could AFFORD it. And yes, this is something you can learn in a short amount of time...or else thousands of CESMT's wouldn't be out there already working.:winkgrin:
It is impossible for them to learn enough to be safe to use.
Unless you've been thru one of these programs, you do not have any information to support that statement. It is not impossible...it is done all the time.

How about comparing them
Let's compare you to your riding instructor and see how you do. I'm sure there are plenty of riding instructors out there teaching that also have an instructor, would it be fair to compare them? No, of course not.

there aren't enough of them to form a real profession
And since 1992, Equissage has graduated more than 8,000 Equine Sports Massage Technicians, from every state and 19 different countries around the world. Many graduates work for the very top echelon of owners and trainers...both in the racing world, as well as on the show circuit. Some have been selected to work with the US Equestrian team at the Olympics, while others have worked on winners of Triple Crown Races.
And that's just one school.
Listing of the IAAMB members
http://www.iaamb.com/current-members.php

Just because we don't have a 'lobbyist' to scare politicians, doesn't mean we aren't 'real professionals'.

Katy Watts

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:14 AM

Bluey

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:30 AM

A human massage therapist I used to use told me she was ‘branching out’ and working on horses. I invited her to ride with me, as she was afraid of her horses and hadn’t ridden for a couple years. Classic green on green scenario, her 'spiritual' relationship with horses is the most important to her; she claims to be a horsewoman yet her horses are rude and have dangerous habits. She asked ‘what does left and right lead mean?’ I demonstrated and she said that would be helpful when she works on horses that have a problem with leads. I asked ‘how much equine physiology have you studied?’ She said ‘none, I work intuitively’. Soooo….. she accepts money for working on horses whose problem she can’t even define.
People should at least ask if their alternative therapist has ANY training. Don't assume anything.

I will say that I wish people would have to be certified to be trainers.
What we see around here called trainers is really not acceptable in so many levels, from horse care and all around stable management, to their handling and riding and instruction.

At least people would learn some very basics, if made to obtain a minimum certification, before putting a shingle up as "horse trainers".

I expect it should be the same for anyone working with someone else's horses, in any category.

RAyers

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:33 AM

Maybe, the legislatures are creating these laws in order to bring the laws more inline with US Supreme Court rulings in 1991 (Daubert vs. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals) and 1999 (Kumho v. Charmichael Tires) that defined who and what an "expert" is? Thus creating a UNIFORM code by which the consumer can judge the validity of a person's capabilities. This would definitely make it easier to prosecute snake oil salesmen as well as clarify who represents what interests in legal proceedings.

So far, other than farriery, nobody has made any good case on this thread as to why there should not be any sort of over sight. Massage has valid applications, so do herbs, diet, and all of the rest. However, in order to have a holistic treatment, there has to be some sort of consistency in understanding between the disciplines (e.g. farrier needs to know hoof structure, function, biology, biomechanics). I would prefer my message therapist or chiropractor have the same.

Reed

Katy Watts

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:45 AM

Thus creating a UNIFORM code by which the consumer can judge the validity of a person's capabilities.

Or, the consumer could get some background education, ask good questions and learn to think critically. I don't think having the government set standards is the answer, for moral, ethical, or quality issues. IMO, the government screws up most everything they touch. Just keeps bureaucrats employed.

I think the answer is high school curriculum on critical thinking.

RAyers

Mar. 1, 2008, 01:06 PM

Or, the consumer could get some background education, ask good questions and learn to think critically. I don't think having the government set standards is the answer, for moral, ethical, or quality issues. IMO, the government screws up most everything they touch. Just keeps bureaucrats employed.

I think the answer is high school curriculum on critical thinking.

It is a nice wish. I hope for the same thing. However the reality is that
given that more than 2/3s of Americans have less then a high school education, critical thinking is not going to happen with a majority of people. Hence the need for uniform rules. Face it, the people who tend to sue are also the most uniformed or refuse to accept that they needed to have some accountability.

People can not know everything about everything and at some point must rely on others to help them. Those are the professionals and licensed experts, etc.

deltawave

Mar. 1, 2008, 01:08 PM

I think the answer is high school curriculum on critical thinking.

Ai, talked to any high school students lately? :lol: Critical thinking isn't something you can do in a 5-week course, either. And I'd argue (probably not convincingly, but there you go) that critical thinking isn't something that can be apprehended by the average adolescent brain. :D But oh, what a better world this would be if it were part of the general curriculum of LIFE. Instead of watching TV, imagine if we read the classics, studied the great philosophers, exposed ourselves to greater minds. :eek:

Going to stop now. Too much caffeine, a four hour morning lecture full of argumentative specialists splitting hairs, and a head full of sudafed. Yikes! :lol: :D

JHUshoer20

Mar. 1, 2008, 01:30 PM

Hey Delta,

Don't know if you were aware of the turmoil of a couple years ago that was caused by the Miller report. Basically Mike Miller is an MD who wrote a report to the AFA in favor of licensing using a report from the sorry state of medical education in 1910.

He found the parallels to be frightening. The report was a real good read so have a look if you want. http://www.picturetrail.com/gid15963051

It might be small and hard to see and my apologies for that but that website was the only place I could find it.
George

redleaflady

Mar. 1, 2008, 02:15 PM

The point here is not whether to license these people or not. The point is that if this is taken over by the vets, it will be hard in many areas to find alternative practioners. In areas where thay exist (as Vets) the cost of treatment will be much higher. Around here there is a lack of any equine vets. We have to settle for a general large animal vet that is a lot more familiar with cows. I will have to haul my horses to a vet school or clinic to get treatment for anything beyond the general basic stuff such as shots or coggin's. Alternative methods would become completely unavailable to some. Just to get a vet on the farm here is at least $50 before they even look at the horse. Now tack on an exam fee of $40+ and the alternative treatment and the cost will easily be at least around $200 if not more. I use a chiroprator that is on the expensive side (but well worth it) at $155-165. I would still come out ahead using her and not a vet (if it were even available here).

I have no problem with licensing if they can come up with a way to make it equal across the board. It would have to be available to those that are already practicing without requiring them to go back to school and take more classes. But I think that the consumer needs to be able to think and use common sense also. If it doesn't look right or feel right, if the horse is having a hard time with it, if it is not effective, don't hire these people again. I have seen the work of several certified journeyman farriers and have not been impressed. I recently moved and have pulled the shoes on both my mares and trim their feet myself. We don't have farriers around here that I can use. In trimming my 18 yr old myself, I have been able to move her underrun heels back over an inch. Her feet are at least 2 shoe sizes bigger. I was using a great farrier before I moved but he had not been able to make that much progress in 10+ years with her. Maybe it was because she had shoes on, I don't know. The point is it possible to do a good job at a lot of these types of work without spending years in school to learn it. The guy who showed me how to trim has no formal schooling. But he was able in a years time to take a horse that had foundered to the point of both front coffin bones coming through the soles to the point of his feet looking as though he had never foundered. Several vets looking at this horse after the work was done cannot believe he had foundered. The vets would have had him put down as bad as the founder was. This founder was caused by the work of a professional farrier. There are a lot of people out there that are not certified, licensed, etc. that are very good at what they do. There are many out there that are licensed that are not. We need to be educated enough to tell the difference.

deltawave

Mar. 1, 2008, 02:23 PM

You are welcome to do a good job on your own horses all you want. But I'm not hiring someone whose credentials don't exist or are undocumented to work on MY horses, no matter how impressed they are with their own abilities. :)

Interesting link, George, thanks for posting it. What a strange set of credentials, I must say! :lol: Cool. Probably worth everyone reading it in the context of this current discussion. But grab your bifocals! And uhhh, what's with the porno links on top, George? :lol: :D ;) :lol:

sublimequine

Mar. 1, 2008, 02:26 PM

Wait.. people can become certified equine message therapists after a THREE DAY course?

I'm scared. :eek:

Tory Relic

Mar. 1, 2008, 02:26 PM

We need to be educated enough to tell the difference.

Another function carried out by a professional association.

JHUshoer20

Mar. 1, 2008, 02:43 PM

I have no problem with licensing if they can come up with a way to make it equal across the board. It would have to be available to those that are already practicing without requiring them to go back to school and take more classes. In all likelihood yes.There would probably be grandfathering. As a horseshoer I can say that with our rate of turnover it would clean everything up within a couple of short years. I have seen the work of several certified journeyman farriers and have not been impressed. Thats easily believable. Certified is not licensed. Certified means someone made the grade or came up to a standard one day in their life. Thats it. Then their certified forever. If they were licensed there would be an enforcement board that owners would have access to ensuring that quality standards were maintained. Unless you were in Illinois pre 1980's or have been hanging around racetracks you've never been around anybody licensed.

Here is a link to the wcf. The British Craft Guild which oversees the trade in that country http://www.wcf.org.uk/

Check out their training and examinations and contrast it with the US and Canada where there is nothing required beyond waking up one morning and deciding thats what you want to do.
George

tarynls

Mar. 1, 2008, 02:45 PM

The point is that if this is taken over by the vets, it will be hard in many areas to find alternative practioners. In areas where thay exist (as Vets) the cost of treatment will be much higher. Around here there is a lack of any equine vets. We have to settle for a general large animal vet that is a lot more familiar with cows. I will have to haul my horses to a vet school or clinic to get treatment for anything beyond the general basic stuff such as shots or coggin's. Alternative methods would become completely unavailable to some. Just to get a vet on the farm here is at least $50 before they even look at the horse.

Are you saying (IF) this happens, a vet must be present at all times when your horse is being shod/trimmed? Or are you saying that the shoeing/trimming can only take place under the direction of a vet but they need not be present?

Personally, vets have their hands full as it is and either of the scenerios I presented will NOT go over well with vets. Consider breeding/foaling season - most vets very busy, do not have the time to "supervise" farrier trimming/shoeing Dobbin (Scenerio 1). Most vets don't have the time to make a phone call to every single farrier to tell them "Now, this is what you are supposed to do with Dobbin" (Scenerio 2). Same applies to any massage therapist, chiro, etc....

Please. Last documentation I could find regarding dentistry, etc. falling under the guise of veterinary medicine was in 2005 (thehorse.com) - and even then, it was only a few states (Florida sticking in my mind). Also googled the issue for info and searched the AFA Members Only section (BF is a certified farrier). Nothing.

Seems everyone (including legislature) has been content to let things be for the past three years and let the farriers take care of the hooves (as they see and work on MANY MANY more hooves than the average vet that gets ONE course in hoofcare in vet school) etc....

deltawave

Mar. 1, 2008, 02:50 PM

I don't know any vets that want to stand around and watch farriers, acupuncturists, and the like work on horses under their direct supervision. They don't have the TIME. Makes no sense to me.

We use "physician extenders" (PAs and nurse practitioners) all the time. The point is to have them working WITH us, not UNDER us. They are autonomous and allow us to, literally, extend what we're able to do and who we're able to care for. Having to hover over them and approve their every thought would be useless.

tarynls

Mar. 1, 2008, 02:53 PM

Certified is not licensed. Certified means someone made the grade or came up to a standard one day in their life. Thats it. Then their certified forever. George

George - I agree with you re: AFA - pass the test one day & you're set for life. However, what about those "certified" farriers that attend clinics, workshops, conventions - often out of state, admission paid out of their own pocket AND don't forget they are missing the opportunity to work and earn money while attending

To take off, your farrier licensing idea would not only have to consist of an enforcement board (I'm assuming you speak of a board that horse owners/trainers/etc. could report negligence to?), but also periodic re-licensing (say, re-test every two years or so) AND the farriers would not be able to re-test without having attended a number of clinics, educational symposiums, etc... that offer CE [continuing education] credits. Heck, there is a clinic coming up at NJ Equine that offers 6 CE credits.

If we are going to license these hoofcare professionals, let's hold them to the same standards (CE, re-test periodically) that we do veterinarians and human doctors.

JMO.

JHUshoer20

Mar. 1, 2008, 03:05 PM

Are you saying (IF) this happens, a vet must be present at all times when your horse is being shod/trimmed? Or are you saying that the shoeing/trimming can only take place under the direction of a vet but they need not be present? If horseshoers are not forever excluded from these laws their trade will be re-defined as vet medicine. This will mean that vets will merely add shoeing to their services they provide and hire horseshoers to do the work. Most signifigant change will be no more private enterprise or independent business for horseshoers.

Personally, vets have their hands full as it is and either of the scenerios I presented will NOT go over well with vets. Consider breeding/foaling season - most vets very busy, do not have the time to "supervise" farrier trimming/shoeing Dobbin (Scenerio 1). Most vets don't have the time to make a phone call to every single farrier to tell them "Now, this is what you are supposed to do with Dobbin" (Scenerio 2). Same applies to any massage therapist, chiro, etc....
With the profit potential I'm sure many will welcome it. As far as other trades they'll just be run out of business as one of my ex's was.

Please. Last documentation I could find regarding dentistry, etc. falling under the guise of veterinary medicine was in 2005 (thehorse.com) - and even then, it was only a few states (Florida sticking in my mind). Florida was signed into law and has created a holy mess down there. Also googled the issue for info and searched the AFA Members Only section (BF is a certified farrier). Nothing. For some better info try this one http://www.horsedentist.com/News%20and%20Commentary.htm
or www.IAAOR.org. AFA's refusal to involve themselves in this and their malfeasance and ineptitude the one time they tried is why they have nothing to say about it. Let's not even go there.

Seems everyone (including legislature) has been content to let things be for the past three years and let the farriers take care of the hooves (as they see and work on MANY MANY more hooves than the average vet that gets ONE course in hoofcare in vet school) etc....
Actually, no. It has been the work of the aforementioned groups that has slowed the progress of these laws. The JHU stands with them in opposition as well. Before there was opposition things progressed rapidly. This shows the effectiveness of organization.
George

MassageLady

Mar. 1, 2008, 03:10 PM

I don't know any vets that want to stand around and watch farriers, acupuncturists, and the like work on horses under their direct supervision. They don't have the TIME. Makes no sense to me.

It's because you're looking at it the wrong way...they don't want ANY alternative therapy done-PERIOD. Perhaps they will look the other way for farriers, or try to make them part of something they'll have to 'join' (for a fee of course). They only want allopathic meds done...more shots, more vaccines, etc. No massage (instead of shots-hock/stifle injections, etc.), no acupressurists (also to help relieve pain, instead of shots, etc, and farm calls).

tarynls

Mar. 1, 2008, 03:21 PM

It's because you're looking at it the wrong way...they don't want ANY alternative therapy done-PERIOD. Perhaps they will look the other way for farriers, or try to make them part of something they'll have to 'join' (for a fee of course). They only want allopathic meds done...more shots, more vaccines, etc. No massage (instead of shots-hock/stifle injections, etc.), no acupressurists (also to help relieve pain, instead of shots, etc, and farm calls).

I'm sorry, but that is a bunch of you-know-what.

The person who does chiro & acupuncture work on my horse not only happens to BE a vet, specializing ONLY in chiro/acupuncture/alternative medicine, she DOES NOT charge for a farm call. She charges a flat fee for the work I called her out to perform and if the horse requires more (say, massage before chiro) she DOES NOT CHARGE extra for it. I would expect to pay for her gas soon as the gas prices are approching $3/gal and I am not close to her but I will gladly pay it.

Just FYI, a chiro/acupuncture session lasting approx. an hour and a half (give or take) costs me $100 in UBER-EXPENSIVE NEW JERSEY. What do you charge for your massages and how long do you spend with the horse?

Perhaps you may want to research before you say vets don't want "any alternative therapy done - period".

Certainly not the case here and there are other vets in my area that provide the same services.

deltawave

Mar. 1, 2008, 03:22 PM

One of my vets does chiropractic and acupuncture and herbs. Not on MY horses (chiro only for me, thanks, from the pantheon of all things "alternative") but it is a LARGE part of his practice. So you can't paint all vets with the same broad brush. If a cadre of vets wants alternatives "stamped out" it seems they're going about it in an awfully strange way, having all such therapies confined to vets only. :confused: This is where the odor of "conspiracy theory" starts seeping in, I'm sorry to say. What are the vets that already are certified and trained in acu/chiro, etc. have to say on this topic?

Ghazzu

Mar. 1, 2008, 03:37 PM

It's because you're looking at it the wrong way...they don't want ANY alternative therapy done-PERIOD... They only want allopathic meds done...more shots, more vaccines, etc. No massage (instead of shots-hock/stifle injections, etc.), no acupressurists (also to help relieve pain, instead of shots, etc, and farm calls).

I call BS on that one, honey.

I am a DVM. I do acupuncture and use herbal medicine when appropriate. I have taken a veterinary chiropractic course, though I don't feel qualified to run around adjusting horses because I'd like to spend time with a good experienced practitioner before I do that, and I haven't had time.

I know a *lot* of DVMs who use integrative therapies. Why, there are even professional associations such as the International Veterinary Acupuncture Society, the American Association of Veterinary Acupuncture, the Veterinary Botanical Medicine Association, the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association, the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association, etc., etc. Imagine that.

You keep running on about DVMs as though the profession were some monolithic entity that has *one* opinion about everything, and you know what it is.

You're wrong about that on so *many* levels.

silver2

Mar. 1, 2008, 04:13 PM

Ghazzu what kind of training does a vet have to undergo to do acupuncture?

MassageLady

Mar. 1, 2008, 04:14 PM

Well, dearie, when I said 'they' I meant the ones pushing the bill thru.
I also have a great vet that does acupuncture and chiro-he is a founder and on the board of elders of the American Holistic Veterinarian Medical Board.:winkgrin:
But there are those who are not vets, that do great work that are needed by people out there that cannot get a vet to do massage/chiro/ etc. because they are not close by.
You keep running on about DVMs as though the profession were some monolithic entity that has *one* opinion about everything, and you know what it is.

You're wrong about that on so *many* levels.
And yet, pushing this bill thru-as quietly and quickly as possible-proves my point.
those of you who are doing alternative therapies are few and far between. I've never said all vets are bad, I've said ONE vet that I know if is horrible-I'm sure there are others...I'm sure there are bad eggs everywhere. Vets have their place...but so do those who do alternative therapies. Vets should not be able to take the choice away from owners. Or am I wrong about that too??:lol:

MistyBlue

Mar. 1, 2008, 04:34 PM

Ghazzu

Mar. 1, 2008, 04:35 PM

Ghazzu what kind of training does a vet have to undergo to do acupuncture?

In most places, they don't *have* to have any. A veterinary license allows you to stick pins in animals. I have some reservations about that.

IVAS standards for certification call for a course with a mimimum of 120-160 hours of lecture/lab, passing a written and practical exam, 40 plus hours of "internship" under a certified practitioner, and submission of a case report.
Followed by keeping up with CE hours.

RAyers

Mar. 1, 2008, 04:39 PM

Vets should not be able to take the choice away from owners. Or am I wrong about that too??:lol:

Yes, there was a recent memo distributed to all vets discussing the need to take over all aspects of animal medicine. A secret ballot was conducted and all vets voted using their secret decoder rings.

This is a democracy. We create laws based on the majority opinion or the need to provide some assurance of safety and efficacy for the public good. In your case I suspect these laws come about because Idiot A takes Fluffiesnookiokums to Vet A for a lameness. Vet A takes a X-ray and finds a small fracture. Vet A prescribes a therapy. Well, Idiot A decides instead to have Idiot B come by with his light saber to help Fluffiesnookiokums' lameness. Of course Idiot B claimed all sorts of things based on their 6 day training course. Fluffiesnookiokums goes down hill and Idiot A decides to sue Vet A for a bad diagnosis.

Well, veterinarians and other medical professionals deservedly have begun to take control of this lunacy via legislation because they are tired of being held accountable for the actions of many so called "alternative practitioners."

Again, take some responsibility and accountability for your profession instead of whining. Get involved in the system and find out what is really happening. You might be surprised by the reality.

Reed

Lookout

Mar. 1, 2008, 04:49 PM

If 'they' are pushing the bill through as 'quickly and quietly' as possible...then how does everyone know about it?
Maybe it seems "quietly" pushed through and "quickly" done because nobody seems to have an issue with it except for a minority of people?
FWIW...CT allows massage from unlicensed practitioners.

How does 'everyone' know? I don't think after 8 pages of this thread even all the people here know what the issue is. They've been going on and on about licensing. I think you'd get a blank look from most people.

In areas with less equine vets and having them further apart...then I doubt anyone already with a 3-6 day certificate is really going to stop practicing. As long as their clients are happy, their clients aren't likely to report them.
Well I guess that makes it okay then.

If I may ask, what school of massage for animals take 18 months, for a vet to get through? I'm interested because this seems like double or triple what a human massage course takes (according to a MT I recently asked). What horror stories from the 6 day certificate people do you know of?

Lookout

Mar. 1, 2008, 04:55 PM

Yes, there was a recent memo distributed to all vets discussing the need to take over all aspects of animal medicine. A secret ballot was conducted and all vets voted using their secret decoder rings.
Take away the nonsense language and this is not so far from the truth. Having just looked at the link that itemizes the exceptions state by state, it looks like every state has some version of this already in place and the only exceptions are farriers, with onesy twosy's of 'if service being performed free of charge.' So it's ok to mess up someone's horse as long as you're not getting paid for it. It's a bit like closing the barn door after the horse has left to say start organizing and legislating.

This is a democracy. We create laws based on the majority opinion or the need to provide some assurance of safety and efficacy for the public good. In your case I suspect these laws come about because Idiot A takes Fluffiesnookiokums to Vet A for a lameness. Vet A takes a X-ray and finds a small fracture. Vet A prescribes a therapy. Well, Idiot A decides instead to have Idiot B come by with his light saber to help Fluffiesnookiokums' lameness. Of course Idiot B claimed all sorts of things based on their 6 day training course. Fluffiesnookiokums goes down hill and Idiot A decides to sue Vet A for a bad diagnosis.

Well, veterinarians and other medical professionals deservedly have begun to take control of this lunacy via legislation because they are tired of being held accountable for the actions of many so called "alternative practitioners."

I don't know where you get these scenarios but I don't know of a single vet that has ever been sued, but I do know of some that should have been. In one scenario Idiot A was the owner and Idiot B is apparently me, while the vet (a track vet, and a second opinion by that point) took an xray and told the owner the horse had a fractured leg, after 6 weeks it was not only not healing but getting worse and she had to 'make the decision'. (I can share the digital xray). You probably can guess the end of the story which is the horse is sound and back to team penning now.

J Swan

Mar. 1, 2008, 05:23 PM

I think what I'm reading is this.

The alternative med folks want to go about their business with no entity protecting the consumer or verifying credentials. Somehow, horse owners all across the US are just supposed to rely upon your word.

The argument to support this notion is that there are a few bad vets out there. What that has to do with the price of eggs I have no idea.

Another argument is that it's just too hard to establish their occupations as true professions. Even though RN's, PA, paralegals, and other occupations have managed to do it. Because the veterinary/pharmaceutical/military industrial complex is like the Borg - and they are doomed to assimilation.

In case others haven't noticed, I'll point it out. I've read nothing in the posts that indicate any of the "alternative" practitioners are interested in doing anything but whining about how unfair this is and how it's just too difficult to do anything about it.

Tough noogies. You think the other occupations didn't face similar challenges? Even more difficult? Compare the nursing profession to what it was 20 years ago. Paralegals. Just those two occupations are perfect examples. If you think those people just waltzed into respectability and didn't have to work for it you're crazy.

I live in an area that has some of the best veterinarians in the country. We're blessed. I have never met one who was not fully supportive of things like massage, acupuncture, or other modalities. But I will tell you what they caution. They caution their clients to be very very careful when choosing such a person to work on their horse. Because there are a lot - and I mean a LOT of people who are downright dangerous. And there is no way to weed them out. No way for a horse owner to know if they're any good.

The good ones are known to local vets and receive referrals all the time. I could call my vet right now and get a list of people he trusts. Farriers included. But again - I'm lucky. I'd not consider that standard across the country.

Veterinary care for a horse (in my opinion) requires a team. The team consists of the owner, vet, farrier and other professionals as needed. I'd never hire a massage therapist that spoke of the veterinary profession in as derogatory manner as MassageLady has done. Neither would I hire a farrier that had no respect for vets. Each trade/profession complements the other. A true professional would act accordingly.

And though these alternative med folks have gotten scads of great advice on this thread - it bears repeating. Get involved in the legislative process, or sit in a corner and pout about how unfair life is.

But don't be surprised if people don't join in on the pity party.

redleaflady

Mar. 1, 2008, 05:58 PM

.

This is a democracy. We create laws based on the majority opinion or the need to provide some assurance of safety and efficacy for the public good. In your case I suspect these laws come about because Idiot A takes Fluffiesnookiokums to Vet A for a lameness. Vet A takes a X-ray and finds a small fracture. Vet A prescribes a therapy. Well, Idiot A decides instead to have Idiot B come by with his light saber to help Fluffiesnookiokums' lameness. Of course Idiot B claimed all sorts of things based on their 6 day training course. Fluffiesnookiokums goes down hill and Idiot A decides to sue Vet A for a bad diagnosis.

"

Reed

But in this democracy Money wins the vote. A lot of good alternative practitioners do this for the good of the horse and not so much the money. They need to and deserve to be able to make a living.

Also I can testify from personal experience that red/infrared LEDs can heal a fracture in a lot less time. I suggest working with a vet to check progress. I healed a coffin bone frature with LEDs completely in less than 3 1/2 months.

silver2

Mar. 1, 2008, 06:50 PM

If I may ask, what school of massage for animals take 18 months, for a vet to get through?
A good friend of mine is an equine therapist here in CA. she had to first have a human massage therapist license then additional training to do animals. So 2 years for the human training + whatever for the animals.

I think what I'm reading is this.

The alternative med folks want to go about their business with no entity protecting the consumer or verifying credentials.
No that's not what you're reading. The alternative folks want not to have to be a DVM to practice, but want to continue under the current rules. The licensing/ training of those folks is an entirely differernt arguement. This makes total sense to me, as vet training is completely superfluous to being say, a massage therapist. Also it is the way human treament is managed, with different states setting the professional qualifications needed for levels of treatment.

Considering that vets can practice acupuncture with NO training per Ghazzu it makes even more sense to seperate the specialites. It's a tad scary that vets can practice things they're not trained in simply by virtue of being a vet (not that I think acupuncture does a damn thing ;) ).

tarynls

Mar. 1, 2008, 07:14 PM

Also I can testify from personal experience that red/infrared LEDs can heal a fracture in a lot less time. I suggest working with a vet to check progress. I healed a coffin bone frature with LEDs completely in less than 3 1/2 months.

I have two questions - just curious and trying to learn.

1. Am I supposed to believe that the same LED lights that people use in high-end car headlights heal a fracture?

2. I DID try the LED therapy on my 7 month old Lab puppy. Partially torn biceps tendon (I know, not a fracture). We were vigilant about completing the "prescribed" course of treatment. No improvement whatsoever. Of course, it was "guaranteed" to at least help, if not "cure" the problem. After the treatments were finished, we took said puppy back to said practicioner. Her answer? "Oh, she must have developed adhesions in the area. Try it for another X amount of weeks."

Needless to say, we politely declined, went the veterinary route with a course of rest and anti-inflammatories and guess what? Puppy is no longer lame.

EqTrainer

Mar. 1, 2008, 07:47 PM

It's a tad scary that vets can practice things they're not trained in simply by virtue of being a vet

That is interesting, now, isn't it?

And even tho' they may not have any training in a given modality, they are asking for the right to determine if it is necessary and if so, to direct the treatment.

As George said, just follow the money.

I agree w/Katy.. the consumer should be making decisions about who is qualified and who is not to work on their horses... JUST like they have to do when they choose a vet. It is no different. As we all know, not all DVM's are equal... I particularly like the ones who specialized in cows, but do horses on the side :lol:

I do know vets who are interested in providing all the modalities in one place... we have one here, who I mentioned has required that all the vets in their practice go to dental school. Great! We use them for our dentistry. But now, this is sort of funny... one of them went to chiro school. I asked her if we should switch from our chiro who has 15+ years of experience, since she is not also a DVM.. the vet told me NO, that the chiro we use is excellent, and let's face it, just because she went to school doesn't mean she knows more than someone with that kind of experience! I admire her for that. THAT is a vet I will continue to use because she is living in reality and doesn't mind that her customers are, too. It's not all about getting the last dollar in her mind, it's about the horses getting the best care they can get.

On the other hand, we have a practice here (that I named previously, I hope everyone who needed to know who it is got that ;) who is an ardent supporter of making everything, including farriery, illegal so they can get more of the pot. It's not hard to sort out who is who in this.

RAyers

Mar. 1, 2008, 07:49 PM

Also I can testify from personal experience that red/infrared LEDs can heal a fracture in a lot less time. I suggest working with a vet to check progress. I healed a coffin bone frature with LEDs completely in less than 3 1/2 months.

Amazing. Did you fracture the other leg to have a bilateral control? Did you take a biopsy so observe osteoblast/osteoclast upregulations? Did you pul blood to see if there was decreased or increased alkaline phosphotase? Did you do any histomorphomtry to measure osteoid thickness?

Or did you just assume that the time went faster? I have yet to see any LED light even penetrate below the outer layer of skin. This is the biggest reason we have no been able to make optical glucose sensors. How do I know this? I have been working on light penetration (photovoltaic and phonon response) in soft tissues to make indwelling biosensors. I'll trade my real world experience to your guess any day.

Money wins the vote? Somebody better tell John McCain that he should not be running for president as he was broke at one point this year. Or, as somebody already mentioned, many lobbiests don't make much money so maybe they should give up? Or maybe my next door neighbor who made the DoD change the way they closed down a nuclear weapons plant who worked her ass off to become her own expert on plutonium soil contamination should have ever tried?

While money helps, you are using it as a cop out.

Reed

Lookout

Mar. 1, 2008, 07:58 PM

Also I can testify from personal experience that red/infrared LEDs can heal a fracture in a lot less time. I suggest working with a vet to check progress. I healed a coffin bone frature with LEDs completely in less than 3 1/2 months.
Uh, how much less? Isn't 8-12 weeks pretty typical for non-joint fracture healing?
And, I don't think this is about questioning whether a modality works or not, just who gets to use it.

tarynls

Mar. 1, 2008, 08:00 PM

Reed, I applaud you. 'Nuff said. Excellent response, especially considering we were not privy to location of coffin bone fx, if it was a simple or complex fx or just an insult to bone (think shin splints in people - very very minor fx), time lapse from "break" to "healing".

Thank you.

redleaflady

Mar. 1, 2008, 08:22 PM

Lookout

Mar. 1, 2008, 08:29 PM

Money wins the vote? Somebody better tell John McCain that he should not be running for president as he was broke at one point this year.

Uh, great example. He was considered out of the race, because he was broke. He had to borrow money and briefly run a shoe string operation and get a few votes to show he had some viability, and his campaign was revived only because donors then started donating again. Look at all the other ones - the ones with the most money are still in (and Clinton had to borrow from herself or otherwise would have had to drop out), the ones that had lots of money even though it wasn't from voters, stayed in longer than they otherwise would have, and the ones with no money are GONE. This selective residence (in general on this post not this one in particular) in naive-land to make a point is really fascinating.

deltawave

Mar. 1, 2008, 08:45 PM

I can testify from personal experience that red/infrared LEDs can heal a fracture in a lot less time.Take it to the supreme court if you want to testify. Anecdotes ain't data. It is this kind of magical thinking and insistence that one's own personal experience trumps the laws of science and the results of research that make people think that alternative therapies and their practitioners are WAY too often making those duck-like sounds. Or, in other words, why would I believe someone with no credentials, no particular training and no scientific background who told me a miraculous story about "treatment X" when there is ample evidence that "treatment X" is no better than placebo? If I'm trading stories with a fellow horse person about a particular remedy that's one thing, but what if that fellow horse person now sets him or herself up as a self-styled "expert" or "practitioner" in this field? By doing nothing more than buying a piece of equipment or taking a weekend practical course?

Somebody needs to draw the line somewhere. Practice voodoo on your own horse if you want, but unless you can walk the walk and are truly expert in your field, don't peddle a bunch of crap to horse owners. There are more ethical ways of earning a living than spinning "beliefs" into "facts".

MassageLady

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:03 PM

tarynls

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:09 PM

My vet and farrier both told me to prepare for at least a 9 month lay up woth her. I used the LEDs and my vet was surprised that the fracture showed no sign of being there at the x-rays taken at 3 1/2 months. The X-rays taken at 2 months showed an 80+% healing rate. Other coffin fractures I have seen in friends horses have had at least a year lay up time. I was on her walking at 2 months and back to full work at 3 1/2.

So my questions still go unanswered - where on the coffin bone was the fracture? Wing, tip, etc? Was it a simple or complex (in many pieces) fracture? Location is key!

All of the above must be considered in the healing process. Was the horse shod to provide some sort of immobilization to the coffin bone if needed?

I still have a VERY hard time believing simple lights that (as Reed stated) cannot penetrate past the superficial layer of the skin.

Is it possible you just got lucky? Have you been able to repeat your stated results?

Thank you for taking the time to educate me.

deltawave

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:12 PM

Unlike you, I'm not painting all practitioners with the same brush. There are very legitimate practitioners of all kinds of things out there. I prefer to use a vet, others are comfortable not doing so. But do you really want to tell me there aren't a WHOLE BUNCH of nut-jobs out there peddling a bunch of pseudoscientific CRAP to an unsuspecting public? They're out there, there are TONS of them, and they don't just prey on horse owners and I assure you they're not doing it because they "believe in" anything but the profit margin. Any legitimate, well trained, thoughtful practitioner who speaks the facts clearly has no enemy in me. But start spouting a bunch of pseudoscience and implausible nonsense and I have no sympathy at all for the field in general having no credibility and potentially being subjected to regulation. None too soon, if you ask me. If you've got the credentials, the legitimacy, the training, the science to back up your field of work, you have nothing to worry about from some form of credentialing or legislated partnerships with professional medical practitioners like vets.

And if you don't know the difference between a pile of random anecdotes and a properly designed study to answer therapeutic questions, well, you don't need my lending you a shovel to dig your hole any deeper. :lol:

tarynls

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:17 PM

DW...why don't you get a pile of wood together and burn us all??

Do you think we learn this stuff and work for ourselves, making minimal money at best-and working full time jobs also, just to 'peddle crap to horseowners'?? No, we do it because we BELIEVE in what we're doing, we KNOW that it helps, and then we have to put up with people like you.:lol:

You said yourself that you use alternative therapies on your horse...I guess you've also have 'fallen under our voodoo spell'. Or are you too intelligent for that??

I know what I'm capable of, and so does redleaflady-we know what has happened are not just 'anecdotes' as you call them, they are not placebo effects either. Just because YOU haven't witnessed them, nor have they been 'paid for' with government money and studied for 10yrs, they ARE valid as far as helping the equine. How do you think your studies are done?? Anecdotes also! Testing drugs on people to see what happens...asking them to write up their symptoms, etc. There is a testing place not far from me always asking people to sign up to 'be part of a scientific test', they get paid too. So...just anecdotes from the scientific side also.

I, personally, do think that you believe in what you're doing. Otherwise you wouldn't speak with such passion re: your work.

However - In the case of the coffin bone fx, have the miraculous results been repeated? Or was it a one-time deal? One time deal to me would make me question placebo effect or just plain luck. Repeated, consistent results might make me think otherwise until backed up by the scientific method.

Yes, I use alternative therapies on my horse. However, the massage therapist I use has over 20 years experience and is called upon to help horses recovering at NJ Equine (to jog memories, the same facility that surgically repaired Smarty Jones' fractured skull). I refuse to use any MT, certification status nonwithstanding, IF they have only had THREE DAYS hand on work. The experience is just not there. Same deal with the chiro/acu DVM. Her experience speaks volumes.

deltawave

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:19 PM

I too have no doubt that many, many practitioners believe passionately in what they do. But belief and knowledge ain't the same thing, necessarily. If there is legitimate, solid, knowledge there is nothing to fear from scrutiny, from a program of oversight, or from a process of standardization. Wouldn't you WANT to weed out the greedy, the undertrained, the amateurs and the hacks?

redleaflady

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:21 PM

It was a wing tip fracture. She was shod to help immobilize the coffin bone. But the vet and farrier still thought it would take 9+months to heal before she could be ridden at all. The key to LEDs is the frequency of light being emmited. IF you use the wrong frequencies, it is not effective. NASA and the medical profession recognize that LED therapy works. Just google LEPT or low energy photon therapy. A ton of information comes up. I thoroughly researched this information before I purchased a system. It is so easy to use and there are almost no contradictions. The only two are not to use it over a wound untill bleeding is under control and not to use it on pregnant animals. The second is only in place to keep the system from a bad reputation if a mare that is already in trouble happens to abort. It won't be blamed on the LEDs. Anyone can learn to use it in a few hours. With a little practice, anyone can effectively work on horses. I use the LEDs on myself when I get bruised, injured, etc. It heals much faster than similar injuries that I get that I don't treat.

deltawave

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:26 PM

Anyone can learn to use it in a few hours. With a little practice, anyone can effectively work on horses. So would this theoretical person be what you'd consider a "qualified practitioner"?

Just google LEPT or low energy photon therapy. A ton of information comes up.

Weeellll, I guess you can call that "information". But let me recommend that we NOT use Google as a reference for medical procedures and equipment. :lol: Why not try Pub Med instead, or if you MUST Google, try scholar.google.com to get something that's actually got a chance of having been peer-reviewed and maybe even published. I'll drop a little hint here--you won't have to spend very long going through your list of results. :lol:

tarynls

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:28 PM

I use the LEDs on myself when I get bruised, injured, etc. It heals much faster than similar injuries that I get that I don't treat.

Explain then to me how LED's can "heal" a fx yet not help a soft tissue injury (perhaps you recall I tried it on my puppy with partial tear of biceps tendon)? FYI, farrier boyfriend also used the unit on himself for various aches and pains. Didn't do a thing for him either. I am boggled by this. (Before you ask, YES, we used the proper frequency.) Thank you.

PineTreeFarm

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:30 PM

deltawave

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:30 PM

There are NO DATA that support the use of LEDs in fracture healing. NONE. But that apparently doesn't stop those who "believe". :lol:

I would really like to know which part of the medical profession recognizes that LEDs work for much more than brake lights and maybe skin.

redleaflady

Mar. 1, 2008, 09:46 PM

tarynls

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:05 PM

Here are some sites with info on LEDs:

http://users.erols.com/iri/EnewsNov19,2003.htm

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/news/releases/2003/03-199.html

http://www.wounds1.com/news/tech.cfm/0

These are just a small few. If you look past the facial sites or narrow your searches there are a lot more. Notice one of the sites is a NASA link.

The wounds1.com link was dated 7/23/2003. The users.erols.com link was dated 11/4/2003. Your NASA link is dated 11/5/2003. All from approx. 4 years ago. If the therapy was so promising, why haven't there been updated reports?

Not only that, but all three articles state they were using LED's to promote mucosal healing. That tissue is a lot more superficial than bone, tendon, or ligament. The erols.com link DID mention promising results in tendon & ligament healing - we haven't heard anything about that since 2003. Wonder why.

Me thinks one would provide recent literature if one wants to be taken seriously......

redleaflady

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:12 PM

The issue here is not what alternative methods people use. Some are very valid. Some work great in one case and not so well in another. This real issue is that the states are one by one passing laws that limit these practices to a vet only. Not everyone is going to use or embrace every alternate modality. But do you want the option of finding someone that can use these modalities if you desire to try them? Not every horse owner has thousands of dollars to drop on equiptment if their horse gets injured and the vet basically give up any hope on your horse getting through an injury ok. It is very hard to hear that your prized future show horse will NEVER be sound again. That is what started me on this path of alternative healing in the first place. The vet school I used to treat the tendon laceration was very anti-alternative medicine. (see OP) I added to their protocol. I figured if it wouldn't cause harm, try it. The vets were amazed at the results. At the last recheck, over a year after the origional injury, I had three vets tell my "congratulations, horses DON'T come back from injuries like that." If these are the vets teaching our future vets, what makes you think that the vets will even be able to provide these services? Again I will state that I am not opposed to some sort of licensing for these professionals. But the vets do not need to be the ones who control all.

redleaflady

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:20 PM

Not only that, but all three articles state they were using LED's to promote mucosal healing. That tissue is a lot more superficial than bone, tendon, or ligament. The erols.com link DID mention promising results in tendon & ligament healing - we haven't heard anything about that since 2003. Wonder why.

They are using this type of therapy in Canada and Europe to treat tumors and other issues. It is classified as a medical device in these countries. The information is not wanted here because it is not a drug and the surgeons are not making a lot of money with it. It all goes back to who is making the money. Right now it is the doctors and the drug companies.

Lookout

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:24 PM

Redleaflady, good thing you brought up a suspect alternative therapy for people to finally have some red meat worth sinking their teeth into, the go get licensed/certified tangent just got so boring (especially since many of the practitioners affected by this act already were licensed/certified, etc., making the argument less than moot).

Ghazzu

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:27 PM

You know what?
Surgeons get cancer.
Their families get cancer.
To think that they would willingly suppress therapies that could save their family members would be obscene, were it not so laughable.

Tory Relic

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:38 PM

Weeellll, I guess you can call that "information". But let me recommend that we NOT use Google as a reference for medical procedures and equipment. :lol:

Well, gee whiz, deltawave! Don't you know if it's on the internet it MUST be true? :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Blu

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:39 PM

How does 'everyone' know? I don't think after 8 pages of this thread even all the people here know what the issue is. They've been going on and on about licensing. I think you'd get a blank look from most people.

BS- Go back to my post.

I posted a link to the AVMA which has a chart that spells out what the language means in each state. Very easy to read, spells out exemptions (ie farriery) and what is included in the scope of "veterinary medicine". IF it was some big secret it would not be made public on the AVMA site.

I also posted a link that is public on the Indianas legislative site. No BS, no biased, zealous language, just what the proposal is. Exactly as it will be on the bill if passed.

If people would start looking at the facts and not only focusing on arguing their point and not ignoring useful posts something might get accomplished.

I think this is the point of some of the posts. If you actually have some sort of organization, you will have people whos sole interest is keeping up with the politics. All it takes is to check your states Sec of State site and related organizations (ie AVMA). I do it. You should too. Where else are they supposed to announce it? Find your address? Find every person whos been certified or has accepted a check from a horse owner for performing an alternative therapy? Please. We're all adults and perfectly capable of doing a little research especially if it pertains to staying in your profession.

I apologize for the shortness, but its late and ive broken a finger.

tarynls

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:40 PM

They are using this type of therapy in Canada and Europe to treat tumors and other issues. It is classified as a medical device in these countries. The information is not wanted here because it is not a drug and the surgeons are not making a lot of money with it. It all goes back to who is making the money. Right now it is the doctors and the drug companies.

Hate to break it to you - but oncologists are those who treat tumors (with chemotherapy/radiation - possibly after a surgeon debulks the tumor to a managable size). Oncologists are NOT surgeons and DO NOT operate.

Canadian and European journals are available online. Haven't seen any of those articles re: using LED therapy for treatment as "proof". Where are they?

PineTreeFarm

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:42 PM

They are using this type of therapy in Canada and Europe to treat tumors and other issues. It is classified as a medical device in these countries. The information is not wanted here because it is not a drug and the surgeons are not making a lot of money with it. It all goes back to who is making the money. Right now it is the doctors and the drug companies.

Your last few posts have convinced me that the vets DO need to be the ones in charge.
Pretty much because the credibility of your position took a big hit with the led cures fractures thing.
I look at it this way. Vets have been trained, I haven't. So I defer to their knowledge ( not that I don't ask a lot of questions LOL).
I know where to draw the line between nonsense and science.

pandorasboxx

Mar. 1, 2008, 10:50 PM

Talk about circumnavigating the real issue........

The issue is the Indiana law and others in the wings are making it illegal to practice any alternative therapies unless you are a vet. It is not about licensing standards for practitioners, only about it being illegal. So, is that what many of you seem to want? That ONLY vets can do these alternative therapies?

I would be interested in whether the proffered laws require that the vet has to actually be trained in whatever alternative therapy they plan on offering. If there is no standard then what makes the vet any better at it than someone who has experience? Does simply graduating from vet school qualify them?

A better alternative would be licensing standards with clear cut rules about length and depth of training, updating credentials and apprenticing. That is a much more reasonable idea than allowing only vets to offer these therapies then then not even applying standards to them.

Lookout

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:03 PM

Yes I saw your link. There are thousands of horse owners who haven't, don't know it's there, and don't know this is an issue. Just because there is some obscure chart buried deep in the internet doesn't mean peopel know about, as you yourself say: IF people would start looking.

BS- Go back to my post.

I posted a link to the AVMA which has a chart that spells out what the language means in each state. Very easy to read, spells out exemptions (ie farriery) and what is included in the scope of "veterinary medicine". IF it was some big secret it would not be made public on the AVMA site.

I also posted a link that is public on the Indianas legislative site. No BS, no biased, zealous language, just what the proposal is. Exactly as it will be on the bill if passed.

If people would start looking at the facts and not only focusing on arguing their point and not ignoring useful posts something might get accomplished.

I think this is the point of some of the posts. If you actually have some sort of organization, you will have people whos sole interest is keeping up with the politics. All it takes is to check your states Sec of State site and related organizations (ie AVMA). I do it. You should too. Where else are they supposed to announce it? Find your address? Find every person whos been certified or has accepted a check from a horse owner for performing an alternative therapy? Please. We're all adults and perfectly capable of doing a little research especially if it pertains to staying in your profession.

I apologize for the shortness, but its late and ive broken a finger.

Lookout

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:05 PM

Your last few posts have convinced me that the vets DO need to be the ones in charge.
Pretty much because the credibility of your position took a big hit with the led cures fractures thing.
I look at it this way. Vets have been trained, I haven't. So I defer to their knowledge ( not that I don't ask a lot of questions LOL).
I know where to draw the line between nonsense and science.

Since she applied this therapy herself, the law wouldn't apply to her. It doesn't rule it out. So the thing that really should be ruled out, is not. But honest people making an honest living are felons.

Blu

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:15 PM

I wasn't talking about horse owners. The people who should care the most are the ones who feel threatened. The alternative practioners. And since it seems some of them have distaste for organized veterinary medicine and have made it clear that they know what the AVMA is, it shouldnt be too hard to locate their website.

And once on there main page (www.avma.org) its right there under advocacy w/options for state or federal. Doesn't seem that buried to me? I would think if this was something that was going on in other states it would be something to look out for in your own state.

I'm not calling anyone stupid by any means, but the information is NOT that hard to find and isn't some big secret. I don't know how they are supposed to go about notifying about every single change to people who are not under an umbrella organization.

And if no one reading this thread knew about it, you can check on the status of professionals licensed by your state, as well as other political/legislature information at your very own states secretary of state website. It is public information, you just have to get out there and look. I mean this in an informative way, not a condescending way becuase I believe we all have a right to knowledge and it is a powerful thing to know what is going on in your state, especially as it pertains to your own profession.

PineTreeFarm

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:19 PM

Since she applied this therapy herself, the law wouldn't apply to her. It doesn't rule it out. So the thing that really should be ruled out, is not. But honest people making an honest living are felons.

There is a big difference between someone applying voodoo medicine to their own horse and someone with 3 days training getting paid for doing the same.
But how do I know that they are honest? Because they say so?
Sorry, but I would support the law. Without it there isn't anybody to protect the consumer from themselves. About halfway through the thread I was on the fence but not now.

Ghazzu

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:23 PM

Does the state of Indiana regard massage therapy on humans as practicing medicine?
Is massage therapy the province of MD's only?
If not, I'd consider it unlikely that the state would apply a stricter standard to the massage of horses.

MassageLady

Mar. 1, 2008, 11:53 PM

Ghazzu...you're so smart...you don't know the answer?? Why not google it, oh right-not everything on the internet is correct-only what DW says is. So, since you don't believe anything I say anyway (and I do know the answer here), I will let you find out for yourself. Ask DW where to look. She is omnicient.:lol:

Ghazzu-if doctors/surgeons/families of them get cancer, and they can't do a 'simple search' on the internet to find a tea that has been proven on thousands of patients-oh wait, anecdotes...walking, talking living anecdotes that were cancer patients, that will literally cost them less than $100 to buy and make for their family, then I feel sorry for them. As others have so well put it, it's out there for everyone to read-if you just look for it.:winkgrin:

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 12:06 AM

Ghazzu...you're so smart...you don't know the answer??

I don't need to know the answer--I don't practice in Indiana.
Still, I would think that someone who "certifies" other people in a modality might have an inlking where they stand in the jurisdiction in which they ply their profession.
Guess it's more productive to play Chicken Little on a bb, though.

Ghazzu-if doctors/surgeons/families of them get cancer, and they can't do a 'simple search' on the internet to find a tea that has been proven on thousands of patients-oh wait, anecdotes...walking, talking living anecdotes that were cancer patients, that will literally cost them less than $100 to buy and make for their family, then I feel sorry for them. As others have so well put it, it's out there for everyone to read-if you just look for it.:winkgrin:

If it's essiac you're referring to, and if you truly believe it is a cancer "cure", then I sincerely hope you never need to put it to the test.
I am familiar with it, know DVMs who have used it, and none have yet managed to cure cancer with it.
But essiac is not being suppressed by surgeons, anyway.
There's plenty of information on the stuff available.

tarynls

Mar. 2, 2008, 12:15 AM

Ghazzu-if doctors/surgeons/families of them get cancer, and they can't do a 'simple search' on the internet to find a tea that has been proven on thousands of patients-oh wait, anecdotes...walking, talking living anecdotes that were cancer patients, that will literally cost them less than $100 to buy and make for their family, then I feel sorry for them. As others have so well put it, it's out there for everyone to read-if you just look for it.:winkgrin:

TEA? Are you out of your gourd? You think TEA is going to cure an 11 year old boy that has been battling a rare form of leukemia for SIX YEARS of his LIFE? Right at this very moment he is lying in a room at Sloan Kettering, trying to get the FDA to approve an experimental drug because it is LITERALLY his last resort?! Hell, if that's the case, the family would no doubt buy all the tea in the entire world. Of course, they wouldn't be able to get him to *drink* the magic tea as nothing stays in his stomach for very long.

Does it have preventative properties? Sure.

Guess what - You give me facts. Scientific papers that say TEA cures cancer. Then, and ONLY then, I just *might* give some thought to what you have to say.

To keep this horse related: I've been curious to see what your school is all about. Off to click on your link.....if it involves giving my horse tea, I might just laugh myself to sleep tonight :)

RAyers

Mar. 2, 2008, 02:02 AM

I NASA and the medical profession recognize that LED therapy works. Just google LEPT or low energy photon therapy.

I went to both the scientific database, Scirus, and medical, Medline, and found absolutely ZILCH on the medical use of LED on bone healing, outside the studies that removed all tissue prior to exposing the bone.

As a researcher who worked for NASA on bone loss and bone healing and was funded by NASA on bone tissue engineering I can tell you that what you say about NASA is FALSE. NASA never has recognized that light therapy works on bone. It works for other things such as certain skin and neural problems but not bone.

If you had actually read the stuff from NASA it was for treating oral ulcerations (that is SKIN to you) due to the chemo-therapy. No, this does NOT translate to bone.

Your argument is 0 for 2 with me now. At the same time you are proving the point to me that the law in Indiana is a good thing. If somebody with a fews days training thinks they know exactly how this stuff works and actually relates medicine from one area and say it will do the same in another, I KNOW they are shysters.

Reed

J Swan

Mar. 2, 2008, 07:32 AM

Your argument is 0 for 2 with me now. At the same time you are proving the point to me that the law in Indiana is a good thing. If somebody with a fews days training thinks they know exactly how this stuff works and actually relates medicine from one area and say it will do the same in another, I KNOW they are shysters.

Reed

Actually, this thread has me so concerned I'm going to be keeping an eye out for similar bills in my state. Unfortunately, I'll feel the need to support making these practices illegal; or at least force some sort of credentialing or licensing process. You people could really hurt or even kill a horse with your crazy notions.

I can't help but wonder if the alternative practitioners on this thread had put this much energy into watering down the language, instead of trying to convince us tea cures cancer, they'd have actually accomplished something.

Some people complain that things aren't fair, and some people get off their butts and do something about it. I've no use or sympathy for people that just sit around and complain. But I do wish y'all the best of luck in finding a job, or finding a way around the law (if the bill passes)

MassageLady

Mar. 2, 2008, 09:10 AM

Guess what - You give me facts. Scientific papers that say TEA cures cancer. Then, and ONLY then, I just *might* give some thought to what you have to say.
I gave you links, read them, don't read them-whatever. What boy is dying? Wouldn't it be worth the $20 to buy the 4 herbs and at least try to get this to him?? Is his life worth $20? Of course it is.:yes: Herbs are powerful, why do you think God put them here?

You people could really hurt or even kill a horse with your crazy notions.
Massage has never hurt or killed an animal. NOr has LED...acupressure, aromatherapy, etc.

instead of trying to convince us tea cures cancer
Let me ask you this...during the winter time don't most people say to take vitamin C?? Drink orange juice when you feel sick? Why..because it helps build the immune system. Do you believe that eating healthy will make you healthy? Then why wouldn't you believe that certain herbs can help you fight off disease? The 4 herbs in this tea cleanse the liver and the blood, helping them to fight off the cancer cells-which are basically cells gone nuts. It puts the body back to where it should be so they stop 'going nuts'. It can be used on other ailments also. I used it on my puppy that had a tumor growing on her lip-I started giving her this tea everyday, and the tumor disappeared in less than 2 weeks.
I find it sad that people won't even try a tea that costs less than $30 to make, won't harm you in anyway-and has been proven to help cancer patients, yet they will go in willingly for chemo/radiation treatments that have been proven over and over again NOT TO WORK, pay an exhorbitant amount, be sicker than a dog, and still most likely die. And you call us crazy?

Dr Brusch presented his findings after ten years of research. He had come to the conclusion that "Essiac is a cure for cancer, period." All studies done at laboratories in the United States and Canada support this conclusion.

Whereupon the Federal Government issued a gag order and said, "You've got one of two choices, either you keep quiet about this or we'll haul you off to military prison and you'll never be heard of again," so we never heard another word out of him.

Brusch's Essiac patients included Ted Kennedy's son who had a sarcoma in his leg, and who had his leg amputated. He was being treated at the time by the Farber Cancer Institute in Boston, Massachusetts. Dr. Farber didn't know how to save him, because no-one had ever lived with this type of sarcoma. So what he did was go to Dr. Brusch and say, how are we going to save Ted Kennedy's son? And Dr. Brusch made the suggestion to put him on Essiac, and after they did, he didn't have a cancer cell in his body. But all this information has been hidden from the public.
http://www.essiac-herbal.com/testimonials.html

And I personally know a lady who was diagnosed with colon cancer, she was ready to go in for her chemo, but her Dad had been looking into other ways to help her. He read about the Essiac formula and got it for her, she took it instead of the chemo...and her cancer is gone. :yes:
What does it take to get people to try things that have been proven over and over to help? The cost is minimal compared to other treatments-and NO SIDE EFFECTS. And again...WE are the crazy ones??:lol:

Lookout

Mar. 2, 2008, 09:15 AM

I wasn't talking about horse owners.
Well the OP was. Maybe you should check the thread title.

Lookout

Mar. 2, 2008, 09:24 AM

There is a big difference between someone applying voodoo medicine to their own horse and someone with 3 days training getting paid for doing the same.
Really?

But how do I know that they are honest? Because they say so?
Sorry, but I would support the law. Without it there isn't anybody to protect the consumer from themselves. About halfway through the thread I was on the fence but not now.

You don't need a law for this. You are perfectly free rihgt now to have your vet fleece you by overcharging you for a service in which they have 0.00 days training but are more qualified to do so than someone with 3 or 6 days training or 10 years. And you know they're honest, because they said so and they wrote the law that no one else but they can do it. I thought vets were in the business of healing animals, when did they become consumer advocates? What other profession has this kind of oversight over others? Where is the outrage that a vet with absolutely no training and which he or she knows absolutely squat about, can legally perform a service that someone with ten years training, and testing and licensing can't?

JHUshoer20

Mar. 2, 2008, 09:38 AM

I gave you links, read them, don't read them-whatever. What boy is dying? Wouldn't it be worth the $20 to buy the 4 herbs and at least try to get this to him?? Is his life worth $20? Of course it is.:yes: Herbs are powerful, why do you think God put them here?

Massage has never hurt or killed an animal. NOr has LED...acupressure, aromatherapy, etc.

I find it sad that people won't even try a tea that costs less than $30 to make, won't harm you in anyway-and has been proven to help cancer patients, yet they will go in willingly for chemo/radiation treatments that have been proven over and over again NOT TO WORK, pay an exhorbitant amount, be sicker than a dog, and still most likely die. And you call us crazy?

And I personally know a lady who was diagnosed with colon cancer, she was ready to go in for her chemo, but her Dad had been looking into other ways to help her. He read about the Essiac formula and got it for her, she took it instead of the chemo...and her cancer is gone. :yes:
What does it take to get people to try things that have been proven over and over to help? The cost is minimal compared to other treatments-and NO SIDE EFFECTS. And again...WE are the crazy ones??:lol:
Certainly can't argue that. Good posting. I sure do wish Caballus was here:yes:

Really?

You don't need a law for this. You are perfectly free rihgt now to have your vet fleece you by overcharging you for a service in which they have 0.00 days training but are more qualified to do so than someone with 3 or 6 days training or 10 years. And you know they're honest, because they said so and they wrote the law that no one else but they can do it. I thought vets were in the business of healing animals, when did they become consumer advocates? What other profession has this kind of oversight over others? Where is the outrage that a vet with absolutely no training and which he or she knows absolutely squat about, can legally perform a service that someone with ten years training, and testing and licensing can't?

Right again, important thing to remember though, when a vet or human doctor labels their operation with PC, or LLP, or any similar type appelation they are telling the world that they are a business. A business attempting to make a profit. This tends to put humanitarian issues on the back burners.

They will do what is in the best interests of their business. If it includes lobbying for protectionist or controlling legislation they will do so. With the vast reserves of backing by the pharmaceutical companies who have most legislators in their pockets anyway it's not hard to get accomplished.
George

Blu

Mar. 2, 2008, 10:16 AM

Well the OP was. Maybe you should check the thread title.

I am not in this for a fight but seriously you are being so obnoxious. I was talking to you and trying to HELP you and all you do is throw that in my face. Very professional. I am so glad you're interested in improving the state of alternative medicine. I however am not anymore after seeing how you guys respond.

And yes, I am in the veterinary medical profession so that speaks volumes IMO. I was at one point willing to work with most of you but now I am jaded.

Congratulations.

I am alos trying to figure out how you guys get that vets have no training in anything but being money grubbing assholes. Thats not what they are teaching me right now I will tell you that.

deltawave

Mar. 2, 2008, 10:20 AM

And of course all the websites and glossy print ads that are hawking "miracle cures" are doing so STRICTLY out of a keen, sincere humanitarian desire to promulgate their secret knowledge for the benefit of mankind. For $19.99 a crack. :lol:

Everyone who has a job more or less does that job because it pays the bills. That would, I daresay, include farriers and massage therapists as well as vets, doctors and even salesmen of miracle potions and cures. And LED manufacturers. Why this is something shameful is beyond me. You want my paycheck? Go to school for as long as I did, learn everything I've learned, take the risks I take with lives in the balance, work the hours I work and carry my pager. Hell, I'll GIVE you my pager. GLADLY. :D But you'd better damn well have the credentials, because I sure as hell am not putting my patients in the hands of someone who isn't qualified. By the same token, I wouldn't put myself forth as an expert in farriery, nor massage, nor herbal therapy and I don't expect to be paid for that expertise which I don't have. But if I need someone like that, I want to hire an EXPERT. Someone with CREDENTIALS. Who would I ask for such a reference if I needed it? Probably MY VET. So go ahead and make those enemies. My vet probably won't be recommending any of you all. :lol: Then go see if you can cure the large, bleeding bullet holes in your feet.

But if you want to go on about miracle cures that are well-kept secrets, LEDs that haven't enough power to disturb a second layer of cells that can miraculously cure bone fractures, and herbal teas that cure cancer and STILL want to be taken seriously, you've got a lot more than a legislative problem on your hands. There are just enough uneducated, uncritical rubes out there who might actually swallow enough of that crap to keep the mythology alive, but as the old furniture commercial says: "an educated consumer is the best customer". Maybe the fringes of alternative therapy are afraid to step up and show their data, their proof, their arguments for superiority because they wouldn't withstand the scrutiny? Here's another little platitude: "sunlight is the best disinfectant".

So come on out of the dark. Show us your DATA that teas and lights and crystals and magnets WORK. Let's see! The world is (literally in some cases) DYING to know what is going to be the new miracle. Wait, you say you HAVE no proof? No data? OH, I see. And I suppose that is the result of the military-industrial-pharmaceutical-medical conspiracy, too, right? RIIIIIIGHT.

JHUshoer20

Mar. 2, 2008, 11:12 AM

Everyone who has a job more or less does that job because it pays the bills. That would, I daresay, include farriers and massage therapists as well as vets, doctors and even salesmen of miracle potions and cures. And LED manufacturers. Why this is something shameful is beyond me. You want my paycheck? Go to school for as long as I did, learn everything I've learned, take the risks I take with lives in the balance, work the hours I work and carry my pager. Hell, I'll GIVE you my pager. GLADLY. :D But you'd better damn well have the credentials, because I sure as hell am not putting my patients in the hands of someone who isn't qualified. By the same token, I wouldn't put myself forth as an expert in farriery, nor massage, nor herbal therapy and I don't expect to be paid for that expertise which I don't have. But if I need someone like that, I want to hire an EXPERT. Someone with CREDENTIALS. Who would I ask for such a reference if I needed it? Probably MY VET. So go ahead and make those enemies. My vet probably won't be recommending any of you all. :lol: Then go see if you can cure the large, bleeding bullet holes in your feet.

On this we agree

Let's take Massage Therapy for example being as that's what Massage Lady does. From what I've seen of it at best it can be beneficial. At worst it can do nothing. In other words it's harmless. Can the same be said for vet medicine where malpractice can cause serious damage up to and including death? For this reason vet medicine requires much more training and education followed by licensing. I'd have no problem with licensing for alternative practitioners also but see no reason to run them out of business. In fact I think licensing would minimize the charlatans and frauds from getting involved with it.

As far as AMA human and vet medicine goes didn't we argue this before?:)
George

deltawave

Mar. 2, 2008, 11:20 AM

RAyers

Mar. 2, 2008, 11:33 AM

How can folks think there is some huge conspiracy? Do you all spend your days watching the Zapruder Film? Yes, companies and individuals deserve to make money and they will do what it takes. Folks with alternatives have the same right. The folks expounding the conspiracy against alternative therapy continue to imply some back room, black ops, entity that is against them.

Working in medical research, with Vets, MDs, pharmaceuticals, etc. I have yet to see any such nefarious efforts. I have testified both for and against the big companies and nobody has shut me down. I haven't seen men in black hiding in the bushes. The story of Dr. Brusch is laughable.

As a matter of fact in 2006 in the Journal of Alternative and Complimentary Medicine, the article:

Trial of Essiac to ascertain its effect in women with breast cancer (TEA-BC).

Zick SM, Sen A, Feng Y, Green J, Olatunde S, Boon H.
Integrative Medicine, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1555,

found, and I quote, "Essiac does not appear to improve HR-QOL (Health Related Quality of Life) or mood states. Future studies are needed to determine whether other clinical outcomes, such as cancer reoccurrence, are affected by Essiac."

Or in the Canadian journal of Anticancer Research in 2006, in the article,

An in vivo analysis of the herbal compound essiac.

Leonard BJ, Kennedy DA, Cheng FC, Chang KK, Seely D, Mills E.
Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto, Toronto, ON, Canada.

They conclude: "Essiac, administered in established in vivo experimental models, did not significantly demonstrate its purported physiological modifying effects."

Yeah, Dr. Brusch is hiding. Because the real data is showing him to be wrong.

Reed

JHUshoer20

Mar. 2, 2008, 11:36 AM

Harmless is nice. There are times when even massage can be somewhat worse than
"harmless", though. No doubt anyone with training and expertise in the field knows these contraindications. However, if the practitioner misuses their position of authority and starts recommending things outside their actual area of qualification, that may or may not be "harmless". Not treating something can cause harm. Treating something with a worthless remedy can be harmful if that treatment is chosen in lieu of something beneficial. OF COURSE it is the owner's or patient's right and prerogative to CHOOSE, but people often turn to EXPERTS to help them choose wisely. If you are an expert, great. But there is a difference between being expert in one's field and a self-styled or self-appointed "expert" in a field where there IS no standard of care, no known indications, no known accreditation and no accountability. Like shooting LEDs into bones. Or curing cancer with tea. Again, you want to do it to your own animals or family members? FINE. But don't abuse the position of authority in your field of expertise by interjecting personal opinion and untested experience disguised as factual knowledge and expert recommendations. That is what we would call "malpractice".
Ok, fair enough.
Let me ask you this then. If drinking a certain tea thats supposed to cure cancer was not to work is this no different than expensive chemo which overwhelming majority of the time does no good either? I'm not defending those who peddle snake oil here but how in the world did apparently senseless treatments of various types gain legitimacy?

And for the vets out there, is there any good reason why in the world some of you are still pinfiring? There was a study done by UC Davis? a few years back that found the practice to be very deleterious yet it's still being done. Why?
George

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 11:45 AM

And for the vets out there, is there any good reason why in the world some of you are still pinfiring? There was a study done by UC Davis? a few years back that found the practice to be very deleterious yet it's still being done. Why?
George

Can't speak for those doing it, as I consider it an abomination.

JHUshoer20

Mar. 2, 2008, 11:46 AM

RAyers

Mar. 2, 2008, 11:48 AM

Ok, fair enough.
Let me ask you this then. If drinking a certain tea thats supposed to cure cancer was not to work is this no different than expensive chemo which overwhelming majority of the time does no good either? I'm not defending those who peddle snake oil here but how in the world did apparently senseless treatments of various types gain legitimacy?

Read my post directly above.

Reed

JHUshoer20

Mar. 2, 2008, 11:48 AM

Can't speak for those doing it, as I consider it an abomination.
Good for you Ghazzu:)

MassageLady

Mar. 2, 2008, 11:55 AM

It's malpractice if you 'diagnose and treat or prescribe'...CESMT's know better, because they are taught not to. Also, CESMT's (at least at my School)are taught that if the horse isn't noticeable better after the 3rd massage, they need to look at something else...ie call the vet. This is less than 2 weeks time, so therefore is plenty of time to get the vet out. Usually it takes them that long anyway!:yes:
There are times when even massage can be somewhat worse than
"harmless", though
When has it happened? Show me proof...I want case studies-not just anecdotes:lol:
Not treating something can cause harm. Treating something with a worthless remedy can be harmful if that treatment is chosen in lieu of something beneficial.
Of course it can...that is why if my massages aren't helping, I refer them to their vet for their diagnosis.
I am alos trying to figure out how you guys get that vets have no training in anything but being money grubbing assholes. Thats not what they are teaching me right now I will tell you that.
If you would please read my posts...I have said that there are many great vets out there-mine being one of them. I have also only said that there is ONE VET that I would never hire again. This is not about 'vets being bad vets' , this is about the entire veterianary lobby-and pharmaceutical lobby-working to try to stop the people who have studied-for years-alternative ways to help the animals, and they are taking that away from the ones who are providing that service, and those who hire us-and want to continue to do so. Basically taking away our Freedom of Choice.:yes:

OF COURSE it is the owner's or patient's right and prerogative to CHOOSE,
NOT if this bill passes-that is the argument here.

But don't abuse the position of authority in your field of expertise by interjecting personal opinion and untested experience disguised as factual knowledge and expert recommendations. That is what we would call "malpractice".
You mean like my Mom's oncologist that said with treatment she'd have at least 5 yrs, and she died the next summer?? I guess maybe I should contact a lawyer.:yes:

I'd have no problem with licensing for alternative practitioners also but see no reason to run them out of business. In fact I think licensing would minimize the charlatans and frauds from getting involved with it.
Or at the very least have a 'grandfather clause' put into the Bill!

And of course all the websites and glossy print ads that are hawking "miracle cures" are doing so STRICTLY out of a keen, sincere humanitarian desire to promulgate their secret knowledge for the benefit of mankind. For $19.99 a crack.

Let me put this out there for you DW...I will be buying the herbs myself in the next month-and anyone that reads this-I will send you a jar for free!! Until the first batch is gone. Yes, that's right...I'll put my money where my mouth is.:yes: To prove to you, that some of us are doing what we can to help-of course we have to make a living, nothing is given to us! Just as you work...do you do it for free? I doubt it. Will you give a service for FREE DW?? What about you Ghazzu?? Will you two 'step up to the plate' and prove you're not in it for the money???
And yet, chemotherapy is FREE! :lol: And we know how well that works, don't we??
Chemotherapy for common malignant tumours has historically been considered relatively expensive. An examination of costs at the Toronto-Bayview Regional Cancer Centre and Sunnybrook Medical Centre, Toronto, suggests that this perception is not accurate. The cost of chemotherapeutic agents administered on an outpatient basis over 4 to 6 months in established drug protocols ranged from $260 to $5374 (mean $2224). The total cost of outpatient administration was estimated to be $152.53 per dose, compared with $185.39 for inpatient administration of the same protocol, a difference of 22%. The difference was predominantly due to a higher allocated per-diem charge at the medical centre. The results indicate that outpatient administration reduces the overall cost of chemotherapy.

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 12:25 PM

Let me put this out there for you DW...I will be buying the herbs myself in the next month-and anyone that reads this-I will send you a jar for free!! Yes, that's right...I'll put my money where my mouth is.:yes: To prove to you, that some of us are doing what we can to help-of course we have to make a living, nothing is given to us! Just as you work...do you do it for free? I doubt it. Will you give a service for FREE DW?? What about you Ghazzu?? Will you two 'step up to the plate' and prove you're not in it for the money???
And yet, chemotherapy is FREE! :lol: And we know how well that works, don't we??

I don't need your herbs. I have a shelf full of my own.
Including a Hoxsey formula compounded by one of my teachers.
And if you want to know if I'm in it for the money, all you need to do is ask my clients.

silver2

Mar. 2, 2008, 12:56 PM

This whole arguement has been so sidetracked and become the "scientists" versus the "kooks".

I think it should get back to the legal issues at hand. For the record I am a scientist and I don't believe in half this crap. No-one DVM or not would be treating my horses with herbs, acupuncture, LEDs or tea. Having said that I do think that massage, shoeing and various other "work" have a proven benefit and a very long history of use, in many cases longer than traditional vet medicine. I do not think that vets with just a DVM degree are particularly well qualified to use these methods purely by virtue of being vets. I once assisted teaching an "equine science" class at UC Davis and it quite frankly scared the shit out of me: I don't think anyone will argue with me when I say that there are many vets who do not have a strong horse background beyond the medical, much less an understanding of the demands placed on riding horses in the various disciplines. I prefer someone with that background to do things like farriery, saddle fitting, massage (very specific kinds of sports massage only) and dealing with behavioural issues. I think I should have that choice.

ETA: dentistry- I used vets for years but then my vet referred me to a dentist and he was much better at dealing with the old guys.

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 01:03 PM

I prefer someone with that background to do things like farriery, saddle fitting, massage (very specific kinds of sports massage only) and dealing with behavioural issues. I think I should have that choice.

Having read the proposed pactice act amendment, I do not believe that massage therapy, saddle fitting, and farriery will be the sole province of veterinarians.

MassageLady

Mar. 2, 2008, 01:06 PM

This is really funny...you use the Hoxsey formula-it's a herbal tea also..yet, you like to throw insults at me??
FOR OVER THREE DECADES, Harry Hoxsey (1901-1974), a self taught healer, cured many cancer patients using an herbal remedy reportedly handed down by his great-grandfather. By the 1950's, the Hoxsey Cancer Clinic in Dallas was the world's largest private cancer center, with branches in seventeen states. Born in Illinois, the charismatic practitioner of herbal folk medicine faced unrelenting opposition and harassment from a hostile medical establishment. Nevertheless, two federal courts upheld the "therapeutic value" of Hoxsey's internal tonic. Even his archenemies, the American Medical Association and the Food and Drug Administration, admitted that his treatment could cure some forms of cancer. A Dallas judge ruled in federal court that Hoxsey's therapy was "comparable to surgery, radium, and x-ray" in its effectiveness, without the destructive side effects of those treatments.
If it's essiac you're referring to, and if you truly believe it is a cancer "cure", then I sincerely hope you never need to put it to the test.

Still, I would think that someone who "certifies" other people in a modality might have an inlking where they stand in the jurisdiction in which they ply their profession.
Guess it's more productive to play Chicken Little on a bb, though.

Not playing anything-I thought you were omnicient!:yes:
As I said, I do know the laws for massage therapy in my state, that is what you asked!
I am a DVM. I do acupuncture and use herbal medicine when appropriate. I have taken a veterinary chiropractic course, though I don't feel qualified to run around adjusting horses because I'd like to spend time with a good experienced practitioner before I do that, and I haven't had time.
I'm curious as to what course you took, and who taught it. How long was your course?

silver2

Mar. 2, 2008, 01:14 PM

Well if other people belive the things like aromatherapy, Bach flowers and light therapy perhaps they should have the choice to choose their practitioner there too? On the AVMA website that Bluey linked to those are listed as CVMAs under the advocacy section, and there is a statement that the AVMA only recognises DVMs in relation to those modalities and no other degrees or certifications.

Given the amazing harm you can do with herbs and various other supplements that seems counter-productive to me.

PineTreeFarm

Mar. 2, 2008, 01:31 PM

MessageLady didn't seem to want to share the website that her quote came from so I thought I'd do that.

Moe voodoo science.

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Lhoxsey.htm
Quote:
FOR OVER THREE DECADES, Harry Hoxsey (1901-1974), a self taught healer, cured many cancer patients using an herbal remedy reportedly handed down by his great-grandfather. By the 1950's, the Hoxsey Cancer Clinic in Dallas was the world's largest private cancer center, with branches in seventeen states. Born in Illinois, the charismatic practitioner of herbal folk medicine faced unrelenting opposition and harassment from a hostile medical establishment. Nevertheless, two federal courts upheld the "therapeutic value" of Hoxsey's internal tonic. Even his archenemies, the American Medical Association and the Food and Drug Administration, admitted that his treatment could cure some forms of cancer. A Dallas judge ruled in federal court that Hoxsey's therapy was "comparable to surgery, radium, and x-ray" in its effectiveness, without the destructive side effects of those treatments.

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 01:48 PM

This is really funny...you use the Hoxsey formula-it's a herbal tea also..yet, you like to throw insults at me??

I keep it around mainly to be able to offer what I know to be a properly compounded formula of known strength to clients who wish to try it. I don't bring it up--they do. And there is (minimal) evidence for antitumor properties of some of the constituents of that particular "tea".

As for insults, that may be what you consider to be my disagreements with some of your more bizarre theories. I can't help the way you interpret things.

Not playing anything-I thought you were omnicient!:yes:

Not claiming the power, but I can spell it. <G>

I'm curious as to what course you took, and who taught it. How long was your course?

I took the IVAS course in 1997-98. Somewhere over 120 hours.
Teachers included both Drs' Limehouse, Dr. Schoen, Dr. Boldt, Dr. Tilghman, Dr. Ridgeway, Dr. Dill, Dr. May, Dr. Fleming, Dr. Schaffer, Dr. Schwartz, James Skoien (C.A., Dipl. Ac.), Dr. Steiss, Dr. Partington, Dr. Mattison, Dr. Hwang, Dr. Bierman, Dr. Caviness, Dr. Demers, Dr. Sickles, and others.

I've also served as a T.A. for 3 IVAS-acccredited courses and been privileged to attend classes with a number of other excellent teachers, including Dr. Marsden, Dr. Allen, Dr. Schwyzer, Dr. Boggie and many of the same folks as above.

And then a lot of CE with teachers like Dr. Thorenson, Dr. Cain, Dr. McCluggage, and Dr. Cahill.

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 02:13 PM

If I were indeed omniscient, I'd have realized you were asking about my chiropractic training (which we weren't allowed to call "chiropractic" due to AVCA rules of some sort, though many of the teachers were the same.)
120+ hours.

That course included teachers such as Dr. Allen, Dr. DeStefano (DC), Dr. Dolittle, Dr. Gellman, Dr. Shoemaker, Dr. Haussler (DVM and DC), Dr. Kenney, Dr. Ridgeway, and Dr. Schoen.

redleaflady

Mar. 2, 2008, 02:50 PM

In alternative methods, the point is not usually to diagnose. That is a job for the vets. (I know a lot of people who have been able to get a diagnosis out of a vet and it has cost them thousands of dollars.) In alternative methods, the body (in this case the horse) is put into a position to heal itselvf in a quicker and better fashion. The current trend in Europe is towards alternative methods. It is called Quantum medicine. There have been people run out of this country and information blocked from US consumers. Just watch the news casts from other countries on what is happening in this world. It varies greatly from what we are told in this country be it medicine or other areas.

MassageLady

Mar. 2, 2008, 02:50 PM

MessageLady didn't seem to want to share the website that her quote came from so I thought I'd do that.

Moe voodoo science
Well...it's not my tea-it's what Ghazzu has!:yes: So, I guess Ghazzu-you are now 'officially labeled' under the 'voodoo' people too!!:lol:

I keep it around mainly to be able to offer what I know to be a properly compounded formula of known strength to clients who wish to try it. I don't bring it up--they do. And there is (minimal) evidence for antitumor properties of some of the constituents of that particular "tea".
So, let me get this straight..your's is 'properly compounded forumula' but nobody elses is? Right.:confused: And only your's has antitumor properties.
Where is the 'scientific data' for this?:winkgrin:

If I were indeed omniscient, I'd have realized you were asking about my chiropractic training (which we weren't allowed to call "chiropractic" due to AVCA rules of some sort, though many of the teachers were the same.)
120+ hours.

So, you basically have a 3 week course to learn chiropractic on animals? I know there is a school near Chicago (forget the name), which is a 2yr school, along with a 6 mo apprenticeship program for chiro on animals. If this bill passes, these people who have been thru 2 yrs of schooling would not be able to practice their craft in Indiana...yet Vets with 3 weeks of schooling would. Do you think that is fair?

Bluey

Mar. 2, 2008, 03:04 PM

We have a now retired veterinarian here that, at one time, wanted to add chiropractic work to his practice.
He went to take some courses on that at a vet school, but never finished enough to feel, in his own words, that he was qualified to practice.

I wonder why we think that someone that is not versed in animal care, to the point a veterinarian is, can say they, with little or no certification or experience, can now become an animal chiropractor, when a veterinarian can't just because it didn't get enough instruction?

We have two animal "chiros" here and both are veterinarians, one only does small animals and the other does all, including horses.
She does dentistry and alternative modalities, but a "regular" vet has to refer you to her, so she knows the basics have been covered properly, before working on any animal.

There is one fellow, that has a horse trailer rigged so he can restrain a horse in there and goes all over the country here "doing horse's teeth".
He even uses power tools and they say he is good.

I would never use someone like that, unless my veterinarian referred me to such a person, but many here do.:eek:
I think that maybe such people are those the certification cries are called for, people that are not accountable to anyone and some of those may do more harm than good, for what an owner can possibly know.

MassageLady

Mar. 2, 2008, 03:28 PM

Then wouldn't it make sense to go after those who are doing more harm? Why throw out the baby with the bath water?? :lol: There are too many out there doing good, that animals owners have come to appreciate, and use consistently to keep their animals in shape. Why should they all be punished for the 'few bad apples'??

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 03:43 PM

Well...it's not my tea-it's what Ghazzu has!:yes: So, I guess Ghazzu-you are now 'officially labeled' under the 'voodoo' people too!!:lol:

I freely admit that.
A significant chunk of "mainstream" practice is not solidly evidence-based medicine, particularly in equine practice.

So, let me get this straight..your's is 'properly compounded forumula' but nobody elses is? Right.:confused: And only your's has antitumor properties.
Where is the 'scientific data' for this?:winkgrin:

Not my compounding--it is from a source I consider reputable though. He was one of my herbal medicine teachers. He has multiple degrees and certifications in human and veterinary medicine, and runs an herbal pharmacy.

I don't want my clients buying stuff over the net from godknowswhere which may or may not be what it is claimed to be, and may or may not contain adulterants.

So, you basically have a 3 week course to learn chiropractic on animals? I know there is a school near Chicago (forget the name), which is a 2yr school, along with a 6 mo apprenticeship program for chiro on animals. If this bill passes, these people who have been thru 2 yrs of schooling would not be able to practice their craft in Indiana...yet Vets with 3 weeks of schooling would. Do you think that is fair?

With the caveat that one must be either a DC or a DVM to take such courses, I consider that reasonable enough. Remember, I had anatomy and physiology and neurology and orthopedics and pathology and so forth *before* I took the course.

I see you left out the part where I mention that I don't adjust other people's animals since I don't feel I've had enough hours of supervised practice.

The ACVA currently feels that, given either a DC or a DVM, a minimum of 210 hours is sufficient as a starting point.(I don't recall what the minimum was when I took the course.) Were I interested in pursuing ACVA certification, I'd probably take another complete course. If I ever get the time and money, maybe I will.

If the state of Indiana feels differently, I suggest you take it up with them, not me. I have no say, and without seeing the curriculum of the school you reference, I have no opinion on its suitability.

MistyBlue

Mar. 2, 2008, 03:50 PM

There are more bad apples than good...which is the point of the bill.
FWIW...why not get cracking and help to form a unified licensing of your own? Something like requiring all practitioners to complete a full course study (longer than 3 days...something probably along the lines of 1-2 years) approved by actual vets with experience and training in these fields and then with a graduation test given by same actual vets for licensing purposes? With follow up continuing education every couple years?
As a business person and "health care professional" it would seem a completely valid course of action, wouldn't it? Why wasn't something like this done before? This hasn't exactly been "hidden" info for years now that there was noise about getting these practices shut down. (and NOT for money purposes...please no conspiracies)
I would assume that *any* professional would be thrilled at the oppportunity to learn more, become licensed, improve, etc. 1-2 years is nothing for training for licensing in a health field.
It seems everyone wants the easiest and cheapest way to continue to do what they're doing...even though it's in the health field. "Grandfather us in" so we don't have to spend another dime and don't have to learn more and don't have to change anything...that's what I'm 'hearing' on this thread.

Is the above something that would interest the alternative medicine folks?

FWIW...Ghazzu's training in chiro or massage was probably a lot less in hours because Ghazzu was already a vet and didn't have the beginner stuff to learn. But a massage or chiro school for a couple years is geared towards those without a doctorate in medicine/health. Apples to oranges.

RAyers

Mar. 2, 2008, 03:56 PM

There have been people run out of this country and information blocked from US consumers. Just watch the news casts from other countries on what is happening in this world. It varies greatly from what we are told in this country be it medicine or other areas.

Oh, I have GOT to take you to some of the international medical conferences! You'd be a hoot! Yes, the US has a WHOLE program to control ALL medicine! HA! HA! HA! HA! I had to sign a secret memo to pledge my eternal devotion to the medical establishment and George Bush. You do live in a small world. Of course my collaborators in Russia, Canada, France, China and Japan may all be hiding stuff from me in order to be able to work with an American.

Reed

silver2

Mar. 2, 2008, 04:10 PM

Why wasn't something like this done before?
It has Misty Blue. Go back and read the examples of the licensed massage therapists that are no longer allowed at the track without a vet or the dentist in Florida who is being prosecuted, despite being licensed by the state as an equine dentist for many years.

I'm sure there are quacks out there but everyone I know who uses a theraputic shoer, equine dentist, massage therpist, Chiro, etc uses one who is well established in the field, has the appropriate training etc. My old trainers chiro is a DC, an Alexander technique person and a horse chiro. And he rides so he's able to evaluate the horse and rider together if needs be, which is amazingly helpful (I'm not a fan of chiro normally but he's good). I wouldn't want a vet to replace these people unless they were doing it full-time. A passing interest and a couple months training wouldn't be enough for me to have confidence in them at all.

Again, I don't use the more left-field modalities. I'm talking about traditional stuff like dentistry, massage, corrective shoeing for lamenesses like founder etc.

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 04:18 PM

It has Misty Blue. Go back and read the examples of the licensed massage therapists that are no longer allowed at the track without a vet or the dentist in Florida who is being prosecuted, despite being licensed by the state as an equine dentist for many years.

Florida has licensure for equine dentists?

MassageLady

Mar. 2, 2008, 04:19 PM

There are more bad apples than good...which is the point of the bill.
Please someone show me proof of this-I have not heard ONE example of it.
(and NOT for money purposes...please no conspiracies)
If I read the word ' conspiracies' one more time, I think I'm going to vomit. Why is it just because YOU don't believe it's happening...it's a conspiracy theory?
And for the record, there are schools out there that have more time and curriculum, there are colleges where people can get a degree. But guess what? It won't matter!! Because they won't be able to do anything with that degree either! So, even if we did do that-we'd be wasting our time and money.

"Grandfather us in" so we don't have to spend another dime and don't have to learn more and don't have to change anything...that's what I'm 'hearing' on this thread.
Actually you heard it ONCE. The 'thread' is about the laws being changed, taking away peoples freedom of choice.
And FYI, I am always learning more, taking more classes, etc. so that I can become better at what I do. Yes, those of us who are doing good, and have been for almost a decade now, should be grandfathered in. I have done nothing but helped those horses I have worked on. Those who I have worked on should be able to give me letters of recommendation so I can continue my work.

Not my compounding--it is from a source I consider reputable though. He was one of my herbal medicine teachers. He has multiple degrees and certifications in human and veterinary medicine, and runs an herbal pharmacy.

Again, because it's something that YOU say is ok-then it's good, right? So basically we have the same remedy, but your's is better because 'you say so'.:lol: Give me scientific proof, or it is just placebo effect...isn't that what I've been told??:yes:

LarkspurCO

Mar. 2, 2008, 04:19 PM

There are more bad apples than good...which is the point of the bill.

Are you referring to the Indiana bill? I may have missed it, but what is the basis for your statement? One of the burning questions I have, after reading the text of the bill, is why? Is there data showing that "alternative" and/or "complementary" practitioners have done harm to animals? I would like to know the rationale behind it. Personally, I don't know of any such cases myself, yet have had a licensed veterinarian F up my horse using an herbal salve.

Excerpt from the legislation:
"Amends the definition of "practice of veterinary medicine" to include the following acts done for compensation: (1) dispensing medicines to treat an animal.; (2) performing complementary or alternative therapy upon an animal; ..."

Does anyone know how "alternative" and "complementary" are defined? Are regulations to follow that will provide an interpretation? It just sounds so vague. If licensing of alternative practitioners is the bigger concern, I don't see how this law does diddly for that.

redleaflady

Mar. 2, 2008, 04:21 PM

FWIW...why not get cracking and help to form a unified licensing of your own? Something like requiring all practitioners to complete a full course study (longer than 3 days...something probably along the lines of 1-2 years) approved by actual vets with experience and training in these fields and then with a graduation test given by same actual vets for licensing purposes? With follow up continuing education every couple years?
As a business person and "health care professional" it would seem a completely valid course of action, wouldn't it? Why wasn't something like this done before?

You expect for those that are already in this field to take a year or two off the go back to school. Most do not have the resources to not work for a year or two. That is how they make their living. And any living working with horses is a hard one. Most horse professionals in any area cannot afford to not work for a year. And again you have the vets in control of who can practice what. They don't seem to believe any/much of it is valid anyway.

redleaflady

Mar. 2, 2008, 04:24 PM

Florida has licensure for equine dentists?

They license people to work on the race track. The state has taken that over from the pari-mutual people. You need to be licensed to be a trainer, farrier, dentist, etc.

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 04:28 PM

Again, because it's something that YOU say is ok-then it's good, right? So basically we have the same remedy, but your's is better because 'you say so'.:lol: Give me scientific proof, or it is just placebo effect...isn't that what I've been told??:yes:

Didn't say it was better or good or even that it worked. Said I considered it safer because I knew where it came from. Same way I'm happy to provide them with vaccine to administer, because I know where it came from and how it was shipped.
My clients have a bit of trust in my judgement, even if you don't. :D

And no, I wouldn't accept herbs from you to treat my patients, because, given what I've sen of your postings on this thread alone, I don't consider you to be a reliable source.

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 04:29 PM

They license people to work on the race track. The state has taken that over from the pari-mutual people. You need to be licensed to be a trainer, farrier, dentist, etc.

Which is not the same thing as being a licensed dentist.

redleaflady

Mar. 2, 2008, 04:36 PM

Which is not the same thing as being a licensed dentist.

But the state has acknowledged that he does this as a profession. As I stated earlier, he teaches the vets how to do this type of work.

deltawave

Mar. 2, 2008, 04:53 PM

When has it happened? Show me proof...I want case studies-not just anecdotes

Case studies ARE anecdotes. However . . . you asked for documented contraindications to massage therapy (although you rattled off a list yourself a few pages back) so here you go:

Am J Phys Med Rehabil. 2007 Aug;86(8):691. Massive Pulmonary Embolus After Leg Massage.

or (from an online text)
Contraindications to massage
Massage is contraindicated when it could cause worsening of a particular condition, unwanted tissue destruction, or spread of disease. Malignancy, thrombi, atherosclerotic plaques, and infected tissue could be spread by massage.
Absolute contraindications to massage include (1) DVT, because increased blood flow in a limb could cause thrombus to detach from the vessel wall, creating an embolism; (2) acute infection; (3) bleeding; and (4) new, open wounds. Relative contraindications include (1) incompletely healed scar tissue, (2) fragile skin, (3) calcified soft tissue, (4) skin grafts, (5) atrophic skin, (6) inflamed tissue, (7) malignancy, (8) inflammatory muscle disease, and (9) pregnancy.
The physiatrist should be aware that massage must be used carefully in patients with chronic pain. The direct hands-on nature of massage may potentiate strong psychophysical effects and unintentional reliance of passive treatment modalities. In all patients, treatment end points must be established at the beginning, and treatment should be terminated when those end points are achieved.
A review of the safety of massage by Ernst found that most adverse effects of massage therapy came about as a consequence of performance by lay practitioners or by using exotic massage practices, other than Swedish-style massage. He further concluded that, while massage therapy is not entirely risk-free, reports of serious adverse effects appear to be rare (Ernst, 2003). The physiatrist, or other prescribing physician, would benefit from being aware of the training and experience of the massage therapist whom he or she is referring.

As to "do I provide FREE services". The answer is yes. Approximately 10% of my patients have no insurance. They get treated the same as insured patients. You and I are actually paying for it. I have no problem with it, some do. That's another whole topic, though. :) I also volunteer my time teaching, giving lectures, educating groups of diabetics, heart failure patients, etc. etc. All gratis. I also kept track once and I give away a couple of thousand dollars in medication samples a week, too. All provided by Big, Bad Pharma, of course. The great Satan. :lol:

For myself (thank you for the offer) I don't use herbal remedies, and (with all due respect) if I wanted to, I would require you or anyone else to provide me with some serious credentials before accepting your freebies. :) Would you take medical treatments (alternative or otherwise) from an unqualified, untrained stranger who just sort of believed in it and found it interesting? Not I. :eek:

If drinking a certain tea thats supposed to cure cancer was not to work is this no different than expensive chemo which overwhelming majority of the time does no good either?

George, you have to precisely define what is meant here by "supposed to" and "majority of the time". In the first case, there is NO evidence, ANYWHERE, that is supported by any sort of peer review, critique, or scientific experiment showing that whatever herbal tea you like to use as an example does diddly squat. In other words, you're completely out there with no science, betting your life that those stories are true and the miracles are indeed attributable to the "miracle product". Anecdotes just do not cut it in the scientific world (we like to call it the real world, LOL) because there are too many variables and too many things that can happen by chance to account for random success OR failures. A chemotherapy treatment that "does no good the majority of the time" would hardly be considered mainstream or first-line therapy (although I'm no oncologist) and would normally be reserved for a situation where there is very little hope anyhow. Look at it this way--if there is some God-awful cancer and the hope of survival is less than 5% WITHOUT chemo, but 20% WITH the chemo, would you choose it for yourself or a loved one? That treatment could very legitimately be said to "do no good the majority of the time", but it beats the hell out of the alternative. At least for many people it does. The fact that cancer is a devastating, deadly disease does not change because we find some treatments that sometimes work. There is NO CURE, no singular therapy that "works"'; although some cancers can indeed be cured, the disease itself is still frighteningly difficult to treat and sometimes impossible.

And yet, cancer survivors are out there. LOTS of them. Not enough, not nearly enough, but my God, I can count probably a couple of HUNDRED of my own patients who've survived cancer thanks to chemo, radiation, surgery, etc. I honestly can't count any, alas, that survived from teas or herbs or whatever else. :no:

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 05:04 PM

But the state has acknowledged that he does this as a profession. As I stated earlier, he teaches the vets how to do this type of work.

The state of Florida has not established criteria by which to evaluate the competency of equine dentists and license them accordingly. The regulations under which he was licensed included kennel workers, jockey's agents, and parimutuel clerks. The purpose of the license was no to ensure that he met some standard of proficiency in dentistry, but that he didn't have a criminal record, and could therefore be allowed on the backstretch.

I'm certainly not going to argue that there are not well educated and trained non-veterinarians working on horse's teeth.
However, I think it is in the interests of those well educated people as well as the horse owner who does not have the expertise to evaluate them that some minimum standards be set, and that the scope of their practice be defined.
I think you will find that many of the non-veterinarians doing teeth feel the same way. And they are organizing and attempting to hammer out some sort of educational requirements and accreditation standards. I applaud them.

JHUshoer20

Mar. 2, 2008, 05:37 PM

I also kept track once and I give away a couple of thousand dollars in medication samples a week, too. All provided by Big, Bad Pharma, of course. The great Satan. :lol: I could say something to that but you're right is another topic

George, you have to precisely define what is meant here by "supposed to" and "majority of the time". In the first case, there is NO evidence, ANYWHERE, that is supported by any sort of peer review, critique, or scientific experiment showing that whatever herbal tea you like to use as an example does diddly squat. I was referring to the stuff Massage Lady was talking about. I will admit however that I never heard of it before but am at least open minded enough to listen. To dismiss it out of hand because it's not mainstream looks too much like cult following to me. Look at it this way--if there is some God-awful cancer and the hope of survival is less than 5% WITHOUT chemo, but 20% WITH the chemo, would you choose it for yourself or a loved one? That treatment could very legitimately be said to "do no good the majority of the time", but it beats the hell out of the alternative. At least for many people it does. Difficult question. Theory behind chemo is that you administer a poison to the patient(in violation of hippocratic oath) in the hopes that it kills the cancer before it does them:confused: Sounds kinda medieval when you think about it. Let's see now. I had 2 aunts and 3 grandparents who all died of cancer. All of them got chemo and it not only didn't help but made them die miserable lousy deaths. My father had cancer twice. Both times they were able to cut it out of him surgically. He's still alive. If I were to think the worst of the doctors involved in those other cases I'd be inclined to believe they were padding bills for hopeless cases that may have lived longer if left alone. The fact that cancer is a devastating, deadly disease does not change because we find some treatments that sometimes work. There is NO CURE, no singular therapy that "works"'; although some cancers can indeed be cured, the disease itself is still frighteningly difficult to treat and sometimes impossible. True, and as you said before doctors and their families get it too. Why do they dismiss oxygen therapy for example? Or numerous other non-mainstream treatments? Granted the studies and peer review might not be there but don't you think it worthy of a closer look? Seems going the chemo route is a case of repeating the same act hoping for a different result.

And yet, cancer survivors are out there. LOTS of them. Not enough, not nearly enough, but my God, I can count probably a couple of HUNDRED of my own patients who've survived cancer thanks to chemo, radiation, surgery, etc. I honestly can't count any, alas, that survived from teas or herbs or whatever else. :no: Is it really thanks to or in many cases in spite of? I know the radiation can be effective but that chemo I'm a hard sell on that. At least from what I've seen anyway when a cancer patient starts getting skinny their as good as dead. So in answer to your question is hard to say about someone I'm responsible for but for me anyway especially with my strong family history of cancers I think I'd lean against it for myself.
George

MassageLady

Mar. 2, 2008, 06:01 PM

And no, I wouldn't accept herbs from you to treat my patients, because, given what I've sen of your postings on this thread alone, I don't consider you to be a reliable source.

Wow, I feel the same way about you...is that a coincidence?:lol:
My clients have a bit of trust in my judgement, even if you don't.

So do mine, because they have seen my work.

Anecdotes just do not cut it in the scientific world (we like to call it the real world, LOL
then you say...
Case studies ARE anecdotes.
So, which is it??

For myself (thank you for the offer) I don't use herbal remedies, and (with all due respect) if I wanted to, I would require you or anyone else to provide me with some serious credentials before accepting your freebies
Well we were all being painted with the broad brush stroke of 'money grubbing snake oil salesman' and only in it for the $$, I wanted to prove that I wasn't. You made a remark of having to pay a 'whopping' $20 for something that has proven thousands of times to cure cancer-yet, you say if you were diagnosed with it, you wouldn't even try it?? Now that you know about it.

IMO taking chemo and prescribing it is insane...the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. The results over 75% of the time are the same...patient dies. Let's find a different cure people!! It obviously isn't working. And we are the snake oil salesman?:lol:

deltawave

Mar. 2, 2008, 06:20 PM

You assume that we (meaning traditional practitioners) read the term "alternative" or "herbal" and automatically dismiss the stuff out of hand? NOT SO. However, we DO require that things be thoroughly studied, tested in rigorously designed trials before "we" will adopt a treatment and administer it to our patients. The problem with most of the "alternative" remedies is that they have NOT been tested to our satisfaction, or they have been tested and found lacking. Otherwise (tada!) they would be MAINSTREAM therapies, and not alternative. The only difference between the two, particularly when you are talking about herbs and plant-based remedies, is that the "mainstream" stuff has been scrutinized, tested, and proven to be worth using. Note that I didn't say "perfect", "without risk", or "superior to every other treatment"! :) What we have, and what we use, is FAR from perfect, but (this is the key point) IT BEATS THE HELL OUT OF DOING NOTHING most of the time.

You use the case of chemotherapy as "poisoning a patient on purpose in violation of the Hippocratic Oath". While that is an interesting way of looking at it, I prefer to look at it this way: take a person with a disease that has a known, or at least very, very predictable, mortality/morbidity rate over time if left alone. Let's use cancer as an example, it could also be tuberculosis, diabetes, clogged carotids, whatever. Each of these diseases has a number of treatments available. NO CURES, except maybe in the case of TB and some particular forms of cancer. But let's agree there are many treatments. WHERE on earth do you begin? Certainly NOT by handing over a bottle of pills or sending the patient to the hospital for their IV. What, then? Why, you find out as much as you can about that person, his/her desires, expectations, and perceptions of the disease, its treatment, the options, and what may happen with each possible modality. Including doing nothing. You spend sometimes HOURS educating them on the disease they have, the various options, the pros and cons, the potential risks AND benefits. Then and ONLY then do you come up with a "plan".

Let's say that plan involves chemo, or "deliberate poisoning" as you prefer to call it. What if that plan seems by far the best option in the opinion of the patient? Would you still call it a violation of the Hippocratic oath? Well, it's "poisoning the patient"! Even if the patient, fully informed, WISHES for the treatment, should I withhold it for fear of something bad happening? When the odds of "something bad happening" are TEN TIMES HIGHER if I don't do it? How is that ethical?

Here's another scenario. Ever been told by a doctor to take Tylenol? Ever done it on your own? The therapeutic window for Tylenol is QUITE narrow, and unintentional overdose is fairly common, particularly if one is fond of drinking alcohol. Is it, then, a violation of the Hippocratic oath to recommend Tylenol, knowing the patient could be POISONED by it? In fact it IS negligent to do so if you know the patient is a heavy drinker, or to do so without even asking the question.

I could come up with a hundred examples, but the point is that EVERY TIME a practitioner makes a recommendation, that practitioner is taking a risk. Sometimes it's a small risk, sometimes it's a BIG risk. Always, always, always, the goal is for the potential or perceived benefit to outweigh the potential or perceived risk. Otherwise you are a butcher. Amazingly, when they are well informed and educated, people often can make their OWN assessment of what is and is not "too risky". Amazingly, they will often choose the risky treatment freely and without reservations. Should they not have this option, if little else is available to them? Or should we simply write off the "sick ones" and withhold ANY potentially risky therapy out of fear of "doing harm"?

It ain't for sissies, medicine. If you can't assume responsibility for making some heavy, heavy decisions, for bad things happening, for sometimes being WRONG, you don't belong in this kind of field. But ahhh, I'm not trying to sound like it's some sort of superhero thing. Having wandered away from my original point, let me say simply that chemo, although it is a terrifying word, is one aspect of medicine (among many) that is getting a little "kinder and gentler" over time, for one thing, and has (really!) more benefits than risks in the grand scheme of things. Considering the opponent, it is not hard to fathom why the ammunition needs to be so powerful. :( Or, in other words, consider the alternative. :no:

If I were diagnosed with cancer I'd put my money (and my life) on things that have a track record, scientific research to back it up. Just saying something is miraculous doesn't make it so, unless you're God. :) If the "miracle cures" work, where is the proof? [Cue the chirping crickets}

ML, anecdotes and case studies are the same thing, I've never said any different. Stories about individuals. We call them what they are, but we do NOT substitute them for scientific research, where large numbers of individuals in controlled circumstances are purposely followed with the precise intention of testing a particular treatment or intervention.

And I sincerely and honestly hope NOBODY here ever, ever has need of my services. :) My patients are rarely "healthy" and I am never happier than when I can tell someone they have no professional need of me. :) But it wasn't me who said "I don't consider you a reliable source". So aim your barbs with more precision, please. :)

caballus

Mar. 2, 2008, 06:38 PM

Oh my goodness ... what a discussion! Now ***I*** have a question for the vets around. I have been refused veterinary care for an EMERGENCY basis since my horses are not regularly vaccinated and I am not a "regular client". I also went through 5 !!! vets trying to find someone who would help me when my 14 year old Newfoundland finally gave in and collapsed at the bottom of my stairs. One vet had the GD nerve to tell me that "well, its gonna cost ya $250 right off the bat for a complete exam and blood profile to make sure you're not making any mistakes." I'll repeat ... a 14 YEAR OLD NEWFOUNDLAND!!! Or, why a vet would tell a client with a dying Bunny .. 'We don't DO "bunnies" on Saturdays - You'll have to wait until next Wednesday."

So, tell ME now who is in it for the $$ and convenience. If the welfare of the animal is first in heart and mind then why won't they treat someone who isn't a "regular" client or whom has not vaccinated his/her animals regularly. THIS INFURIATES ME. Do you not take the oath to "First, Do No Harm"? If so, then how in hell could someone refuse and emergency ... a life or death situation?

Now, you tell me why I started studying alternative methods of medicine and healing? And why so many others are, too?

(Shoulda not read this topic at all ... :( :( :( )

I use herbs, Homeopathy, Acupressure, Non-Invasive Massage and Energy to work with horses (and other animals). This is NOT in place of a vet ... this is in addition to regular veterinary care. How many vets out there are TRAINED and STUDIED in these forms of healing. Don't give a rats patooey whether or not you think they're legit forms of "healing" or not ... animals don't lie. So when an animal does a 180 with a Homeopathic Remedy or a stint of herbal treatments, don't tell me that they don't work.

AND .. who the HELL is the AVMA to tell me NOT TO PRAY over an animal ... not to do "energy" work or "non-invasive massage" or TTOUCH or TTEAM or electro-acupuncture or Homeopathy NONE OF WHICH IS INVASIVE OR HARMFUL.

Oh, and as for hoofcare ... how many vets are TRAINED in hoofcare? The experience I've had is a vet telling a client that I KILLED ALL THE NERVES IN THE HORSE'S LEG by pulling the shoes. GIVE ME A BREAK! (That was in response to the vet saying the horse was absolutely in horrific pain, 5 on the lameness scale as the horse was galloping down (escaped out an open gate) a tarred road.)

Ya, tell me its not about egos and $$$.

J Swan

Mar. 2, 2008, 07:05 PM

W
I think that maybe such people are those the certification cries are called for, people that are not accountable to anyone and some of those may do more harm than good, for what an owner can possibly know.

Agreed. And though MassageLady insists folks like her are not "practicing veterinary medicine" that's not an accurate statement. Many of them in fact do try and practice medicine. By disparaging real science, and touting their particular method as a "cure" or "treatment" they are actually diagnosing and treating conditions.

Trouble is - they don't have the knowledge, skills or ability to make a determination as to what treatment the horse requires; if any. I disagree that horses have not been harmed with such treatments, as I have seen firsthand that it's simply not the case.

I think MassageLady and the other folks are just using this thread to tout the benefits of their own magikal snake oil. It's no use arguing with fanatics. One just hopes to God no animal is harmed when they use their voodoo.

Lookout

Mar. 2, 2008, 07:15 PM

******* FEAR BOMB **********

Ghazzu

Mar. 2, 2008, 07:17 PM

***I*** have a question for the vets around. I have been refused veterinary care for an EMERGENCY basis since my horses are not regularly vaccinated and I am not a "regular client".

Perhaps the veterinarians you called already had their hands full with people with whom they had a veterinarian/client/patient relationship. We have no way of knowing.

I also went through 5 !!! vets trying to find someone who would help me when my 14 year old Newfoundland finally gave in and collapsed at the bottom of my stairs. One vet had the GD nerve to tell me that "well, its gonna cost ya $250 right off the bat for a complete exam and blood profile to make sure you're not making any mistakes." I'll repeat ... a 14 YEAR OLD NEWFOUNDLAND!!!

You were apparently offered care, if you were quoted a price.
Why is it incumbent upon the veterinarian to treat your dog for a discount because he's old? Would you have been happier had you not been told the fees in advance?

Or, why a vet would tell a client with a dying Bunny .. 'We don't DO "bunnies" on Saturdays - You'll have to wait until next Wednesday."

Perhaps the veterinarian in the practice who has expertise in lagomorphs was not there. Would the client have been well served to have someone who felt less than comfortable with treating rabbits see the pet? Then you'd be able to complain that the vet who saw the rabbit didn't know enough about them...

Hard to say, since your horror stories are vague and we're only hearing part of one side.

So, tell ME now who is in it for the $$ and convenience.

Well, from one angle, the owners in the above cases.

If the welfare of the animal is first in heart and mind then why won't they treat someone who isn't a "regular" client or whom has not vaccinated his/her animals regularly. THIS INFURIATES ME. Do you not take the oath to "First, Do No Harm"? If so, then how in hell could someone refuse and emergency ... a life or death situation?

Because veterinarians are not some sort of combination of Mother Theresa, James Herriot and the Bank of America.
They have to set limits if they are to care adequately for the animals they do serve, to make a living, and to have a life outside of their practice.
Multiply your one emergency by many other non-clients calling. How are they supposed to run from putting out fire after fire for people who only call in a crisis and still show up remotely on time for their scheduled visits?
You want a veterinarian at the drop of a hat, put one on retainer or haul your animals to the veterinary school where they have 24/7 emergency service.

AND .. who the HELL is the AVMA to tell me NOT TO PRAY over an animal ... not to do "energy" work or "non-invasive massage" or TTOUCH or TTEAM or electro-acupuncture or Homeopathy NONE OF WHICH IS INVASIVE OR HARMFUL.

What lovely straw men you build...

Lookout

Mar. 2, 2008, 07:24 PM

Because veterinarians are not some sort of combination of Mother Theresa, James Herriot and the Bank of America.
They have to set limits if they are to care adequately for the animals they do serve, to make a living, and to have a life outside of their practice.
What does this have to do with the topic - or is this the reason they have to co-opt 'shady, non-medical, non-tested, unproven, but which actually do in fact diagnose and treat now which makes them so dangerous outside of their skilled hands, therapies? (if that's not a contradiction I don't know what is).

What lovely straw men you build...
Not at all. That's actually the original point of this thread.

deltawave

Mar. 2, 2008, 07:28 PM

The AVMA has ACTUALLY told people to NOT PRAY over an animal? I find that . . . implausible. Or histrionic. Or hyperbolic. Or all of the above. :lol:

who the HELL is the AVMA to tell me NOT TO PRAY

Kind of reminds me of getting in trouble for saying "bad words" as a little kid and having my mom ask me "where the hell did you learn language like that?!" She caught herself, laughed, and that was kind of the end of it. :lol:

MassageLady

Mar. 2, 2008, 07:34 PM

"I don't consider you a reliable source".I wasn't talking to you, DW. Please re-read that post.

ML, anecdotes and case studies are the same thing, I've never said any different. Stories about individuals. We call them what they are, but we do NOT substitute them for scientific research, where large numbers of individuals in controlled circumstances are purposely followed with the precise intention of testing a particular treatment or intervention.

It's the same thing!! Only with this-a pharmaceutical company most likely is doing the 'testing'...not a herbalist, or homeopath. They will do studies also.

Agreed. And though MassageLady insists folks like her are not "practicing veterinary medicine" that's not an accurate statement. Many of them in fact do try and practice medicine. By disparaging real science, and touting their particular method as a "cure" or "treatment" they are actually diagnosing and treating conditions.
I would never, nor have I ever done anything of the sort. I've never told a client that my massage would cure their animal. Although, most times the animals have recovered, there are times that I did need to call in a vet-one whom I trust.:winkgrin:

Trouble is - they don't have the knowledge, skills or ability to make a determination as to what treatment the horse requires; if any. I disagree that horses have not been harmed with such treatments, as I have seen firsthand that it's simply not the case
Then please share it with us. I am usually called out because the people believe a horse is sore, I do massage (get it??). I will ''evaluate' the horse for soreness, if I find the horse is sore, then I will work on that animal. If I don't find soreness...at least to the point as to what I think it should be for what the people are saying is the problem, then I will tell them there is something else going on, and they need to call someone else. I know my boundaries, I'm smarter than you think.:yes:

I think MassageLady and the other folks are just using this thread to tout the benefits of their own magikal snake oil. It's no use arguing with fanatics. One just hopes to God no animal is harmed when they use their voodoo.
It's spelled 'magical'.:winkgrin: And it amazes me that when someone has no other argument, they go to the 'snake oil and voodoo' comment.
Would someone get me a chicken?!?!?! I need the blood please!!!:lol: And bones, lots of bones!!:lol:

deltawave

Mar. 2, 2008, 07:44 PM

It was hard to tell who you were aiming at there, ML, without attributions in your quotes. :)

How is a randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial the "same thing" as a collection of anecdotes? (or case reports, if you like) You really, honestly think that a study of 10,000 individuals evenly matched, to eliminate confounding variables, for all other characteristics except for the fact that half are getting the studied treatment and half are getting placebo the "same thing" as a collection of stories with no mention of confounding variables, specific treatment regimens, precise diagnosis, etc? You really, honestly and truly think they are the SAME THING in terms of scientific validity? That the data derived from one type of observation is no better or worse than the other? SURELY if you're "smarter than we think" the incongruity of this type of comparison is impossible to reconcile.

Many studies are indeed done by pharmaceutical companies, but a WHOLE BIG PILE of them are not. They are, however, done by scientists, using the scientific method. Perhaps you've heard of it? It is decidedly NOT the same thing as a collection of heartwarming anecdotes, carefully selected to weed out the not-so-happy endings. As another poster often says (Katy, I think?) science is dispassionate, and you take the good results with the bad results and draw your conclusions, even if they weren't what you hoped for. Where do all the BAD anecdotes go?

J Swan

Mar. 2, 2008, 07:46 PM

MassageLady - you are greatly mistaken. On the COTH BB, magical is indeed spelled, "magikal".

I don't think anyone will disagree with me on that.

Also, you seem to think I've got some sort of problem with your personally. You seem to be taking all of this chitchat awfully personally, considering none of us know you. "you folks" is plural.

The ISSUE is non veterinarians performing certain therapies on animals without the supervision or knowledge of a veterinarian. There are bills floating around that would either outlaw such therapies, or define them too narrowly. In which case - you better get off your butt and do something about it. hint: internet chatter is not "doing something"

As I've written, several times, this ISSUE is not unique. There are hundreds of thousands of laypeople in the US who have gone through the same thing.

Instead of putting all your energy into fruitless internet debate, you'd be well advised to focus on developing your occupations credibility and reputation within your jurisdiction. Making disparaging comments about folks who have given you excellent talking points, helpful advice, and personal anecdotes does nothing to further your cause.