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ThirdCharm
Feb. 26, 2008, 04:57 PM
Student: Nice little kid. Been riding a couple years, here since Fall, decent position, has to be reminded to keep reins short, heels down, etc. Just starting to event--done a couple events at Maiden on PACKERS, about to do BN. Wants a horse. Parents are willing to buy a horse. Lovely, right?

Wrong. Dad has been doing "research" on the internet and thinks that there are "tons of horses" that people are practically "giving away", and today tried to tell me that the bombproof, saintly 6yo Novice packer pony one of my other clients is selling is therefore only worth $XXXX amt. Because he found a horse for $2500 whose "dressage looked okay on the video" (this from someone who two weeks ago learned that in dressage, it is good if the horse's head is down, and a month ago asked if a canter was faster than a trot) and its owner said it would jump 3'. I just said I didn't think the packer's owner would come down 60% on the asking price, but that I would pass it along. And to bring the video by and I would be happy to take a look at it if that is a horse they think they would be interested in (5yo OTTB for an 11 yo beginner).

I have already done the "green and green = black and blue", "the greener the rider, the more experienced the horse", etc. etc. but from remarks he made I can tell he's thinking she can train her own (she's 11). I also pointed out that if she is going to get a green horse it might be a year (or more!) before it was ready to event, and might take a while to become reliable, because he is a "win win win" type, and it went in one ear and out the other. Maybe if they actually go and RIDE some of these "bargain" horses they will get why I'm telling them a good, child-safe event horse is going to cost more than a couple grand?

Jennifer

InVA
Feb. 26, 2008, 05:05 PM
I feel for you thirdcharm! I'm not a trainer but have witnessed what you describe a few times. Green riders & green horses & know it alls are a dangerous mixture. Good luck to you.

Sadly anyone with a checkbook can buy a horse.

Could you suggest they go and ride these bargain horses? then they'll have a comparison?

mjrtango93
Feb. 26, 2008, 05:07 PM
Oh I love those!!! NOT!!!! I am on the other end of that now. I have a cute green horse that is not terribly cheap, but keep letting people know he is green and the rider will need to have some knowledge and work with a trainer full time to make it work. They sound great on the phone and out pops a 14 year old that has ridden for 6 months with a trainer, but they don't really have a trainer they work with all the time. But remember she schooled one of the trainers horses, so should be fine on my 6 month under saddle hony. Puleeze people. Quit freakin wasting my time, and confusing the living crap out of my horse.

Anyways off my little rant........is the mom any more logical then the father? If the mom has any say here, which she may or may not, play up the safety factor. You will be hard pressed to find a mom that doesn't put safety first regardless of the $$$$.

eqsiu
Feb. 26, 2008, 05:09 PM
Maybe suggest a lease? It would be cheaper and your student could still get a safe horse.

Lori B
Feb. 26, 2008, 05:17 PM
If you think he won't listen to you, are there other riders at the same level who are doing what you want him to do (riding sensible older experienced horses) who you can point to as successes?

I started riding at about the same time as a woman where I used to ride, let's call her 'Susan'. (we are both adult beginners, started in our late 30s, etc.)

I have leased mostly beginner friendly horses for four years, and have competed at elementary a few times, ridden in clinics and CTs, and had some modest success (where success is defined as not falling off, sometimes getting a ribbon, and mostly having a positive experience). My mounts have included 3 OTTBs (10, 11, & 6), a 22 yr. old Morgan, a 11 yr. old QH, and similar grownup, quiet, trained horses.

Meanwhile, 'Susan' bought a 4 yr. old OTTB gelding with the assistance and ADVICE of her trainer (let's not go there right now). He's now coming 7, I think. She has taken a bunch of lessons on him, and fallen off about 20 times, and her trainer has showed the horse for her, but I don't think she has ever shown him herself.

Which rider do I want to be? Which rider does the Dad want his daughter to be?

Do you know any young riders who gave up riding after lots of frustrations and falls riding an inappropriately green horse?

Maybe you can recruit a sensible parent to talk to him, someone who he won't think is in it for $$. ????

olympicprincess
Feb. 26, 2008, 05:23 PM
Yep I have a student like that, but she already HAS the horse. :sigh:

Horse isn't awful, but is young (4), green and too timid w/ this green rider. Rider rode my deadheads in lessons a couple years ago. They didn't ask for my opinion, just went and bought one then asked for lessons again.
I seriously was hoping they'd buy a horse 4x as old as the one she got (not that age = bombproof, but many have been exposed to "life" already)

I told them last week, that after 5mo, they are both getting more timid, girl doesn't want to ride, she won't even go handle horse w/o me there, is scared to go more than 5ft from me on the longe line (yet wants to show her one day) etc. = time to sell her or trade her to someone in your 4H w/ an old BTDT horse.

We will see. I have a feeling that the 4H instructor that moved into their barn will try to help them, so maybe she'll get stuck with this no-win situation. ...amazing how much this mismatch stresses ME out. :dead:

3horsemom
Feb. 26, 2008, 05:41 PM
perhaps the best solution would be to plop mr.internet know it all's butt in the saddle and let him have a go at it. peoplewho do not ride have no idea how hard it is to do well. even on a schoolie i bet mr IKIA might change his mind when he finds out how hard it is to ride well even on a well trained horse. anyone who wants to put there 11 y.o. on a green horse is beyond the pale imho.

Fence2Fence
Feb. 26, 2008, 05:48 PM
Having survived the path of green + OTTB with questionable resulting mental illnesses for both me and the horse :) :) :), I sympathize with all parties involved.

We all start out naked and uneducated in the beginning, and you can't blame The Dad for what's probably the reality of the situation--he only has a couple grand to spend, really wants to buy the horse for the little girl, and is hopeful at finding Wonder-Poopsie at a deal.

Be very specific in what you want them to buy. Heck, write down a list of criteria: look for X size, X breeds, avoid these breeds, find horse/pony with certain range of experience, specify that the horse is presently being ridden by a child the same age as his daughter. Present it to them as "I know you are going to be looking at a lot of horses, let me help you narrow and speed up your search."

I'd even go as far as finding potentially suitable horses, and taking them to see the horse.

And if they show you the fire breathing wonder pony and they are intent to buy, be up front that you refuse to teach the girl on the horse due to its unsuitability.

BarbB
Feb. 26, 2008, 06:02 PM
The only advice I have is not to let it consume you.
Things may work out, and you have to (and want to) try, but you are not in control, give it your best shot and let go.

You have my sympathy and a mantra for the day:
"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."

hollyhorse2000
Feb. 26, 2008, 06:07 PM
Eventing is a dangerous sport. You can tell dad-know-it-all that you must maintain your professional credentials, which means doing everything possible to reduce the risk to your students -- including his daughter. You cannot teach a student on a horse that would be dangerous to her. You care about her too much to endanger her by helping her find a horse that is inappropriate. Maybe Dad will get a clue . . .

Beam Me Up
Feb. 26, 2008, 06:10 PM
I agree a kid safe eventer is going to cost more than that.

As a trainer you don't have to work with any client you think is going to make your life impossible, of course, but having been that kid 10+ yrs ago I'm a little sympathetic too.

But as a kid who grew up in a similar situation (non-horsey, non-rich parents, horses in the backyard on the cheap), I understand that no amount of pleading with the parents (by either kid or trainer!) will make their 1K budget grow to 10K. If they don't have it, they don't have it. And analyzing their spending on other things doesn't work for either kid or trainer (trust me--I tried! who needs new rug, a new lawnmower, to go visit the grandparents, etc. when there are horses to be bought).

So, having had the 1K budget for our early horses, up to 2K as we got older, I can attest that you still can ride, event, have fun, but with a lot of compromise. Before we were ready for OTTBs, we horse shopped way off the beaten path, mostly trail or backyard/pleasure horses. If they are young, decently conformed and have a good attitude they can often become decent pony club/low level event types.

That is not a fun situation for kid or trainer, as kids with more money and better mounts will progress more quickly, but hopefully if the kid loves eventing enough and the dad doesn't make you completely crazy you can find a "compromise" horse to satisfy all.

eqsiu
Feb. 26, 2008, 06:15 PM
Maybe you could suggest a dead broke QH trail horse. They don't cost much, and are usually safe. My friends and I all started on such horses. We had to teach them to jump, but it wasn't really an issue because our coach kept things low for us too. By the time we were ready to try harder jumps so were the horses. And no one had to worry about unpredictable behavior from the horse. We weren't competitive mind you, but such a horse could tool around schooling shows just fine.

c_expresso
Feb. 26, 2008, 06:20 PM
Use my story!!!

I was 12. I bought a 3 [almost 4] year old Hungarian TB. She was so sweet, so cute... would be great, huh? WRONG! I was simply NOT EXPERIENCED enough at the time to train her right, and we had a nutty trainer. I had year 4? 5? years. She totally had ruined my confidence, I was scared to even show because of that horse. She wouldn't go in the show ring, wouldn't go XC [would stop and rear and spin] and spooked at EVERYTHING. Finally I got a better trainer and learned to ride and we ended up doing decently and I sold her as a hunter [never would go XC...] but it was a horrible experience. I fell off her a few times a month, she flipped on me, etc. It ended OK but took YEARS to get her even sane, and then she was very nice but was just not an eventer. Now I have an experienced jumper who I love more than life itself...

Appsolute
Feb. 26, 2008, 06:36 PM
I agree.. MOST of the time it doesn't work, ends up in lots of tears..

BUT.. I was on a budget.. dad was a penny pincher... and despite no horse experience, went out and bought a 5 year old green Appy.

I was 10, didn't know how to canter yet.. just getting posting trot down.

With the help of Pony Club, dedication, and a VERY KIND trainer who took me under her wing, the match worked out great. Years later I was showing that same $500 horse prelim level.

It wasn't the fast track to the upper levels,but we stuck to the basics, slowly moved our way up, and made it there. Sure, I got bucked off a lot, but that onery Appy taught me so much!

shea'smom
Feb. 26, 2008, 06:42 PM
Jennifer,
Be rude. Be blunt. Tell them you will only teach her on a horse that you approve. Life is too short.
Kathi

Pferd51
Feb. 26, 2008, 06:47 PM
Too bad you’re in this position. It sounds remarkably like one that started at our barn a few years ago. I think the kid was a bit older, though. In our case, the kid was leading the way into stupidland and the Dad thought everything his kid said was as good as gold. Everyone else was wrong, or didn’t appreciate what his kid could do. The good news is, the kid is still alive. It was pretty close a couple of times. The family has gone from barn to barn and trainer to trainer several times in the last couple of years. If the kid in your case seems to show some sense, you may have a chance. On the other hand, if the father is set on running things his way and ignoring all advice, from what I have seen you have really no recourse but to tell them to find another trainer and say a Hail Mary for them. When things go right they will take the credit, and if things don’t work so well you will be blamed. The Dad is an adult. If he was ever going to learn to take advice he would have done it by now. If you tell them in no uncertain terms that you think what they plan to do is unwise and unsafe and you want no part of it, you can be sure that they will tell people you were mean and tried to interfere with the kid’s development as a rider. They’ll probably add that you were a typical horse professional who couldn’t stomach hearing the truth from an outsider. Sure as night follows day.

NomdePlume
Feb. 26, 2008, 06:58 PM
It's sad. But if they don't have the money, they just don't have it.

It will be slow with a greenie, but it could work. My parents never forked out the big bucks for a packer type when I needed it the most, and yeah, my confidence took some knocks. My trainer despaired, told me to sell him, to get anything else, told me over and over again that I wasn't learning a damn thing on that horse, but I just couldn't afford a new one. Now my cheap 4 year old is 10 and ready to begin his Advanced career and we've finally hit our stride. It was because my trainer never really pressured me to get rid of him (there was no..."I won't teach you," "leave the barn," "how could you buy a horse without my advice," none of that, even though he told me repeatedly that the horse was rank (we both knew it!!)...) that we got this far!

Of course, I wasn't 12...but falling off for years because your horse has a wicked buck doesn't make it any easier at 18!

EqTrainer
Feb. 26, 2008, 07:13 PM
Do yourself a favor and fire him.

You will lose the kid, too, but it is worth it. This is the kind of parent who cannot be educated, the kid will get hurt or scared off horses forever and then it will be your fault - according to him, and the large mouth he will use to tell everyone.

JMO.

Gnep
Feb. 26, 2008, 07:22 PM
why don't you tell Daddy, if he wants to kill his daughter, it is easier and cheaper to throw her of a bridge, garantied result

Pferd51
Feb. 26, 2008, 07:32 PM
NomdePlume, I understand about money. That's not the thing that alarms me. People have to make choices about expenses all the time. The problem I see here is that the Dad believes that he knows what a good horse is and won't listen to anyone. We are not sure from the information that they don't have the money. They might, they might not. All he really has the expertise to determine is how much they can afford to pay. He doesn't have the knowledge to determine which horse is the best they can afford--but it doesn't sound like this is going to stop him from doing it. It's this attitude that has the potential to make an ongoing relationship unbearable. Under the right circumstances, with the right family, sheparding a student through tough times with a project horse might be as challenging/rewarding as anything a trainer gets to do. I'm guessing this isn't one of those cases.

aiken4horses
Feb. 26, 2008, 07:38 PM
When I read the OP I realised how incredibly lucky I was as a horse crazy kid to have a Dad with some knowledge. I was 9 years old, would ride anything that moved (and did!). My Dad spent his evenings going out secretly with my sister trying horses. He narrowed it down to 2 choices and had enough sense to set it up for me to "try" them (I was soooo clueless!) The one he and my sis loved, a 15.2h, dark bay with chrome, Anglo-Arab was gorgeous - it also bolted with me, the length of the arena. I was white as a ghost!

For my tenth birthday I was surprised with choice #2, a 7 year old, 14.2h , liver chestnut QH/Morgan cross gelding - he was a saint with a tail! Took me everywhere, over everything, stood for countless hours, never put a foot wrong, never lame, never sick. I showed him from Pony Club, Prince Phillip games, thru Jr. hunters (the old time 3'6"), to the Pony Jumper finals. That $700 plain brown pony beat some NICE horses in his day!

Thirty years later I'm still riding because of Oliver Twist.

Money doesn't always buy the best - knowledge and experience does.
Try to educate the father. It could mean the world to that little girl.

ReSomething
Feb. 26, 2008, 07:39 PM
Well, there are "tons of horses" "that people are practically giving away". Some lady in FL is fire-saleing her "rescues" and got a dishonorable mention on FHOTD just the other day. I'm dealing with a DH that thinks the same way. A young horse will last longer, a green horse is cheaper, they all know how to jump, it's natural, why not get that free one that so-and-so was giving away off the track. ARGH!
I'd really just suggest printing off this thread and handing it to him. And I'll be happy to list my reasons why you buy an older well-trained horse and pay more for it.
First reason: He's a teacher too. He needs to know how to do whatever your novice rider wants him to do so that when she asks him properly he'll do it, and then she will ask him the same way the next time, and so on.
Second reason: Lots of other people want a nice horse for their kids. He'll cost more just because you have competition for a popular product.
Third reason: It'll be the same as buying that fixer-upper boat or whatever. Sure it is cheaper. Do you ever get to use it? Or is that the point? Using the horse and having fun with it is the point for your kid.

Good luck!

EqTrainer
Feb. 26, 2008, 07:47 PM
[quote=aiken4horses;3037001]

When I read the OP I realised how incredibly lucky I was as a horse crazy kid to have a Dad with some knowledge.

Me, too. In my case it was more that my Dad knew what he didn't know, and was not afraid to admit it.

Thanks Dad!

Granada
Feb. 26, 2008, 07:52 PM
That just plain sounds like a bad situation if the dad won't listen to your advice. If it is the money, I'd be all for a lease situation; or, if they insist on buying, I support the dead broke backyard quarter horse idea. Teaching those to jump small fences usually turns out nicely.

Also, is there someone else you can work on besides the dad that might have a say?

Good luck.

ThirdCharm
Feb. 26, 2008, 08:41 PM
Apparently it is not about the money, as without talking to me they went and looked at a $10K green-broke "warmblood" (unregistered 15.2h qh/wbx, not that that is important, but since the owner stuck the label 'warmblood' on it he thinks it is worth more!) a couple weeks ago. If it was about the money, I would totally understand. Almost all my students are on horses they trained themselves, on a budget. Heck so am I!

It really seems to be that he thinks if he takes someone's advice someone is going to "put one over on him" or something. Gads. I am really going to have to think this over and figure it out. Also he is quite free with his opinions to anyone who will listen, and UBER competitive, so if his kid buys a green horse and isn't winning right away (and I told him, with a green horse, A) it might not even WANT to be an event horse and B) even if it does, it will take TIME to get trained, experienced, and reliable enough to be competitive), he will not be happy.

Ugh.

Jennifer

Savoy 8
Feb. 26, 2008, 09:03 PM
I never had the opportunity to be timid! My dad purposely bought "bad" ponies... My first pony was a black "something" that was named Fury... he called the guy that was selling her and the guy said this is NOT a beginner pony... My dad said thats what I want! he drove all the way to FL to get her... I was 5 and had really only sat on horses and ponies and walked and trotted a little!.... My grandmother pulled her off the trailer put her on a lounge line and threw me up there! making the pony canter, me falling off crying, and my dad throwing me up there until I learned to stay on!... I told my parents I wanted a pony more then anything, my grandmother had TB's so they said ok, but I was going to LEARN how to ride!! and his philosophy was "I am going to buy her every bad pony and horse I can find, and if she will stick with it threw that THEN later I will buy her something nice!"

I remember being about 7 and I had a appendix I was to small to get on and off by myself, so my dad would put me up there, and then I would be off to ride over at the cross country, well I came back one day and they asked me where I had been I told them I went to the cross country and they said "how did you get over there, the gate is closed" I told them "Oh I just jumped the fence"

While I understand your frustration I also think that it could turn into a good thing!

HECS04
Feb. 26, 2008, 09:07 PM
I know quite a few of those! And honestly, wouldn't people rather spend a little more money and know their child will be safe?

Hidden
Feb. 26, 2008, 09:25 PM
You are likely in a no win situation. If Dad has decided he is now "Knowledgable" he could be getting you on every twist and turn from here on. How to compete/what tack is needed/when to compete/boarding costs - you name it. Go with the flow and do your best for the little one.. but keep chilly so Dad isn't able to rock you. And be ready to let go.

Libish
Feb. 26, 2008, 09:46 PM
Some folks have to learn it the hard way.... by spending LOTS more money on a green horse than they ever would have buying the packer up front..... and, the only way they learn that lesson, is to go through it........

magnolia73
Feb. 26, 2008, 10:19 PM
Jen-
Where the heck are they finding decent horses priced under $4k? Seriously- what I have seen is lame, quite green or old, even with the lower prices right now. Hope they ask you to check it out first. And I'm looking same price range, no show ability and limited jumping needed.

CapturinYerRide
Feb. 26, 2008, 11:07 PM
First I find myself first trying to figure out which one, who this is! But it doesn't really matter.

You're going to face a river of these types flowing past you in the long career as a trainer that is ahead of you. Buck up and confidently stick to your guns, and they'll either get with the correct plan or fall away. As with a bomber squadron on a mission, the strong ones will always be right there to the left and right.

I was once insistent upon buying a horse for my daughter that was just awful (well actually, this was more than once..) and finally the good trainer just told me that she wasn't going to have any involvement with that horse, wouldn't sign entries etc.. It was a decisive moment for us. We passed on the horse, not the trainer.

You don't want the ones who pass on the trainer anyway!

MassageLady
Feb. 26, 2008, 11:15 PM
Remind him of the dangers...even with a great horse and rider. Then give him a tape of Superman falling off and breaking his neck. And the tragic ending that story had. Then tell him you'll have nothing to do with it.

outofafrica
Feb. 26, 2008, 11:33 PM
I think that the dad will listen to you if you explain it terms of safety. I'd say: sit down with him, maybe grab a cup of tea and then talk about what his daughter really needs. Most parents, even if they don't understand the ins and outs of riding are pretty receptive to keeping their children safe - talk about the dangers of OTTBs and any other green horse. Then, offer to involve him in the process. Make lists of possible horses and arrange to go out together to look. As you watch the ponies/horses - comment to him on what you like/don't like and invite him to do the same.

It is also possible that the Dad is shocked by the price of the horses. Many non-horsey parents don't have any idea what good horses cost and it's possible that he agreed to buy his daughter a horse not knowing what the actual price tag would look like and is now panicking. Ask him to discuss his price range realistically with you. It could be an uncomfortable conversation as he might be embarrassed.

Also, everyone has a different opinion on this - but I don't agree that a pony necessarily has to have lots of experience to be a suitable mount for a beginner. I got my current horse when I was 13 as a 6 y/o who had done nothing but 2ft schooling jumps, basic school figures and trail riding. I had ridden for a few years prior to buying him and had a pony before, but I would not have classed myself as an experienced rider by any stretch of imagination. But he was a super calm ID x who forgave every mistake I made and we progressed together. Six years on we are still happily united. I guess if price is an issue, I would look for personality over experience.

onlyleftsocks
Feb. 27, 2008, 12:18 AM
as a trainer, you must sit down- at the risk of being a b$$tch-and tell him NO. if he trust you as a professional to educate his daughter, then he must allow you to make the call on the horse. address all the issues you are having. i find being brutally honest about everything in this situation is the best policy, anything left out will come back and bite you in the as#.
it is simply not worth it to put the girl or the horse in the danger they could/will get into.
you also must face the consequenses of this "chat". the Dad may be a fool, and be offended. if so realize sooner or later this would have been the ultimate outcome.
i feel for you, its a crappy situation. stick to your guns:yes:

LKF
Feb. 27, 2008, 07:55 AM
I left you a PM

But please take the advice of the other Coth members and get rid of this guy. It's not worth ruining your reputation.
This is the type of person who will blame Y-O-U should anything go wrong and his daughter gets injured or killed.

eventmom
Feb. 27, 2008, 08:22 AM
I am in the sometimes it can work camp.
Not everyone has to go down the same path. Sometimes true excellence is produced in very unique ways.
Truth is, it may take longer to go down this type of path, but the girl may learn a ton with your help! And she just might come out on the other end, ahead of the pack.
I am not going to go into all the details of what we did, but suffice it to say that none of the animals we purchased would have been considered
packer types!
For us, it has worked out better than we could have every dreamed.

LisaB
Feb. 27, 2008, 08:32 AM
See, I would laughed like it was a joke and then said, 'no, really, this is what you should be looking at ... 'then explain the progression of horses she will take on in her like. It relieves the tension he just brought on and will make him not look like a fool. I have to do this in my job in a sea of men who are good at their jobs, not mine.

IFG
Feb. 27, 2008, 09:54 AM
Please use my example. I own my horse because some parents bought him for $1 off the track for their teen-age daughter. He was a six-year old late cut horse that had raced for 4 years. At 16, he still has days when he is spookier than hell and shows his joy in life by bolting and bucking. Even after riding many green horses, he was still a lot for me. I got him when he scared his owner enough so that she lost interest in riding. She would either get run away with or fall off. Last I heard, she was spending lots of time hanging at the mall.

I have twin daughters. I have leased them a succession of appropriate ponies and horses. When they got too big or too skilled for the pony or horse, they moved on. Both went Novice at 14. One went Training at 15. The other has been on hiatus while she runs XC (doesn't she know that the horse should be doing that?). She recently indicated that she wants to start again. They both work for their riding which I think keeps them grounded and invested in the process, and it usually keeps me out of the poor house.

An appropriate horse keeps a kid happy. IMHO, if the dad doesn't want to spend the price up front, he can probably find a lease. From what I have heard, the horse market is terrible, and some Pony Club family would probably be happy to lease the family an outgrown, much-loved pony if they know that it will be in a good situation.

InVA
Feb. 27, 2008, 10:16 AM
why don't you tell Daddy, if he wants to kill his daughter, it is easier and cheaper to throw her of a bridge, garantied result

PERFECT!! I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!!

LOVE IT!

Libish
Feb. 27, 2008, 10:17 AM
I have to do this in my job in a sea of men who are good at their jobs, not mine.


This is an excellent point....... and suggestion.

Bogie
Feb. 27, 2008, 10:44 AM
It's probably a situation that you can't change, and if you are concerned over what they do, yes, I'd fire them as clients.

You could try explaining to the Dad that his daughter would be much better leasing a horse/pony right now because anything that is appropriate for her today, she will likely outgrow within a year and then he'll have a horse/pony that she can't part with because it's a pet and a friend.

However, it does not sound like Dad *needs* any help :rolleyes:.

Dawnd
Feb. 27, 2008, 11:24 AM
I never had the opportunity to be timid! My dad purposely bought "bad" ponies... My first pony was a black "something" that was named Fury... he called the guy that was selling her and the guy said this is NOT a beginner pony... My dad said thats what I want! he drove all the way to FL to get her... I was 5 and had really only sat on horses and ponies and walked and trotted a little!.... My grandmother pulled her off the trailer put her on a lounge line and threw me up there! making the pony canter, me falling off crying, and my dad throwing me up there until I learned to stay on!... I told my parents I wanted a pony more then anything, my grandmother had TB's so they said ok, but I was going to LEARN how to ride!! and his philosophy was "I am going to buy her every bad pony and horse I can find, and if she will stick with it threw that THEN later I will buy her something nice!"

I remember being about 7 and I had a appendix I was to small to get on and off by myself, so my dad would put me up there, and then I would be off to ride over at the cross country, well I came back one day and they asked me where I had been I told them I went to the cross country and they said "how did you get over there, the gate is closed" I told them "Oh I just jumped the fence"

While I understand your frustration I also think that it could turn into a good thing!

:D

OK, this goes completely back to my belief that kids must have been "less precious" in the old days then they are now. We survived without car seats, helmets, being tossed in the water to learn how to swim...Heck, we were even given sharp pointy objects (Yard Darts) and told to stand across from our brother and throw them at each other.

The guy seems like a know-it-all which was my father to a T. (Perhaps that's what's really bothering you is that he doesn't value your opinion? That's what bothered me - or at least that's what my therapist would say if I had one ;) Who knows what would have happened if I actually had a ride-able horse!

The kid will be miserable OR will adapt, learn to ride what s/he has and be just fine.

Perhaps the best that you can do is try to steer them towards the least offensive of the bunch.

riverbell93
Feb. 27, 2008, 11:47 AM
perhaps the best solution would be to plop mr.internet know it all's butt in the saddle and let him have a go at it. peoplewho do not ride have no idea how hard it is to do well. even on a schoolie i bet mr IKIA might change his mind when he finds out how hard it is to ride well even on a well trained horse. anyone who wants to put there 11 y.o. on a green horse is beyond the pale imho.

I agree; if the dad doesn't ride and has only really watched horses in a safe lesson atmosphere, he may not understand that riding even a quiet lesson horse isn't all that easy. I'm always amazed (and depressed :)) at how easy it looks from the ground.

Speedy
Feb. 27, 2008, 01:59 PM
There are 11 year old kids riding green horses and ponies everywhere. They are not necessarily all on the brink of death.

So, if you value having a client (not a bad thing to have, actually, as the economy changes), you will make some effort to accommodate the father...you do this by actively helping him to find young, green horses, or older horses that may have maintenance issues, that are in his price range for his daughter to try. For an unexperienced kid and a father on a budget, suitability in those categories will basically come down to temperment/personality (e.g. how forgiving is the horse of a rider's mistakes? how easily can the horse be handled from the ground?). I'm not saying that it's the ideal situation, but surely you can, as a professional, assist the father in finding and evaluating prospects that are minimally suitable? And I'd tactfully suggest that while he and the kid are looking at X horse that he has an interest in, that they also check out Y horse (the more experienced, and potentially more expensive, type that you would prefer yourself), just as a point of comparison.

Having made this accommodation, you should ask the kid, in front of the father, some (leading) questions about how comfortable or confident the kid felt while trying these horses. If the answers tend to be hesitant or overtly negative with respect to the young/green horses and more enthusiastic with respect to the packers, the father might get a clue, not from you, but from the kid, and begin to sing a different tune...

All I'm saying is - humor the client for awhile and let him see for himself the difference in his kid as she tries the two different types of horses - it may just sort itself out without your having to seem as though you have a profit-oriented agenda. With this kind of person, you need to let him think that it was his idea...whatever he ends up with.

area692
Feb. 27, 2008, 03:25 PM
I agree with you, let them go try some of the cheap horses, take video and bring it back to you. You can then point out how unsafe it could be, if they haven't figured it out by themselves.

Dad definetly sounds like the type that needs to figure things out for himself. As the trainer you can always refuse to teach the kid if they bought something without discussing it with you, if you feel it is unsafe for the kid and they won't follow a training program that will make the horse safe for the kid, given her riding experience.

I'm sure you don't want to push away business. Let them do some sniffing on their own, but somehow delicately and politely point out where you stand with working with the kid, if they buy something that is so green. Also point out what a hassle it will be if, after 6 months-year they learn they did buy the wrong horse, selling and starting the search over again.

Just an FYI...last fall a friend of mine bought a 5 yo, practically kid proofed OTTB, had been retrained after tendon bow. Horse was never lame, but did show some bowing, so horse was dirt cheap. They are out there, if the buyer want to pay next to nothing, they might have to compromise somewhere else.

bip
Feb. 27, 2008, 03:42 PM
That must be frustrating that he wants to "win", but doesn't want to buy a horse that is known to win.

And how he "doesn't want someone putting something over on him", so he puts himself so completely at the mercy of shady horse traders (and even some well-meaning sellers who may not know what the girl really needs to meet her goals).

mythical84
Feb. 27, 2008, 04:09 PM
At least you're getting some warning! I had a family tell me that they were going to start horse shopping for their 7yo beginner daughter in the spring. I said "Great, give me a call and I can help you with the search." Spring comes and the phone call I get is, "We bought a 3yo pony and we're having problems, can you come help." 3 years later the pony has progressed, but the daughter has definately suffered in the confidence department along the way.

So my only advice to you is as a trainer I see it as my job to help my students with whatever they present me with. I'm up front and honest about my predictions, but the only thing I can do is help with the present situation, I can't change what's already happened.

Hopefully they listen to your advice and start looking for more appropriate mounts, but it's their money and they can do what they wish with it.

ThirdCharm
Feb. 27, 2008, 05:08 PM
Again, it is not even remotely about money except as money is a means to "outdo" someone else. He has decided that his daughter needs a 4-5 yo GREY TB or Warmblood and is apparently looking at horses matching that description from $2000-15K.

Apparently he is also lying to sellers about their qualifications to own such an animal, claiming they own other horses and that the daughter is competing at a higher level than she is, on "difficult Thoroughbreds" (she has done Maiden on three different packers, one of whom is a TB but is 13 with eight years show experience!).

I'm so glad I posted this thread.

Jennifer

ponyjumper4
Feb. 27, 2008, 05:24 PM
I'd sit him down once, have a heart to heart, if he doesn't come to reason or you can't agree on a plan, kick them out the door. It's not worth it. He sounds like the type of dad too that if something did go wrong and the kid got hurt, he'd blame it on you and tell everyone about it.

I too was someone that got a $400 "good deal" pony after I had started riding. It was a good deal too, or at least would have been if I was more experienced and/or the pony hadn't learned that it was very easy to scare her 9 year old rider by rearing. We would have kept her if we could have afforded 2 horses, because she did have a lot of talent, but I wasn't ready for her yet. Fortunately for me, we got it right the second time around and I still have that pony (she was green when I got her, but I was ready for it and knew that was all we were going to be able to afford) and she has given me a beautiful little filly.

magnolia73
Feb. 27, 2008, 05:29 PM
Greys are so hard to keep clean. I was all smug about pretty Mare this summer. Now I'm all ashamed since it has been too cold to bathe.

People can be truly Bizarre.

eqsiu
Feb. 27, 2008, 05:32 PM
OMG! :eek: I have a 3 year old unbroke grey Oldenburg for sale. It sounds like a perfect match! *snicker*

jn4jenny
Feb. 27, 2008, 05:34 PM
Perhaps dad doesn't realize what's at stake here (besides his daughter's neck, but it seems like that doesn't particularly matter to him.) Just point out to him that like any other ethical trainer, should they happen to buy an unsuitable pony that you will refuse to work with daughter unless she plans to continue riding school horses or leases/buys something appropriate. Thus if he insists on relying on his own judgment to buy a horse, but that he'll probably also be shopping for another boarding barn and trainer soon thereafter. Either his egomaniacal personality will cause him to straighten up and see the light (don't want that ugly reputation of having gotten kicked out of a barn) or he won't straighten up and will march right down to another barn (in which case you wash your hands of him--hooray!).

rennyben
Feb. 27, 2008, 06:08 PM
I had a student several years ago whose parents had bought her a very sweet, but very green grade mare for $900. Her dad found out I did eventing and asked if I could give her lessons. She worked very hard on that mare, eventually showing her at BN and Novice Recognized horse trials. But, she was never in the ribbons. Her pony moved like a donkey with egg beaters for legs and was terrified of water. After routinely being beaten by kids/friends who didn't ride as often or try as hard but were on nicer horses I finally figured out how to talk to convince her dad to pony up and buy a nice horse.

I told him that these were horse shows, not "which rider tries the hardest" shows. He was very into basketball and I followed by comparing her situation of trying to show "the wrong" horse to playing basketball in high heels. It CAN be done. In fact, his daughter was doing an excellent job playing basketball in heels, but the kids wearing sneakers would always beat her running down court or making jumps. Basically, if his daughter was going to to win he had to buy her some sneakers. He asked how much the sneakers would cost and when could we start looking. The girl is now much better mounted and qualifying for EACs and the whole family is enjoying the sport more.

Foxtrot's
Feb. 27, 2008, 07:00 PM
I had a lovely little Trak/TB mare I bred, but she never grew big enough for us. I put her up for sale as a PC horse, but needing experienced rider. Sure enough, along comes Miss Greenie - I told the parents I didn't think it was a match - and they have not spoken to me since!!

ThirdCharm
Feb. 27, 2008, 08:34 PM
Had a chat with Dad. Explained to him that it was important to my reputation that his child be safely and (hopefully) winningly mounted, and that I didn't care how much money he spent since I will make more money teaching lessons to a happily mounted client than I could ever make off the commission of a sale! (He made it clear when I said that that money was NO OBJECT--however realistic that assessment may be). So we are going to discuss the qualities of the ideal kids eventers tomorrow when they are here for her lesson. I made it clear that color is NOT going to be a consideration, because just finding a horse capable of eventing successfully with an 11 yo beginner is going to be hard enough without limiting it by color.

Will keep everyone's input in mind when we talk! Thanks!

Jennifer

Savoy 8
Feb. 27, 2008, 08:45 PM
:D

OK, this goes completely back to my belief that kids must have been "less precious" in the old days then they are now. We survived without car seats, helmets, being tossed in the water to learn how to swim...Heck, we were even given sharp pointy objects (Yard Darts) and told to stand across from our brother and throw them at each other.

The guy seems like a know-it-all which was my father to a T. (Perhaps that's what's really bothering you is that he doesn't value your opinion? That's what bothered me - or at least that's what my therapist would say if I had one ;) Who knows what would have happened if I actually had a ride-able horse!

The kid will be miserable OR will adapt, learn to ride what s/he has and be just fine.

Perhaps the best that you can do is try to steer them towards the least offensive of the bunch.



HAHA I have lots of those stories!! We had Angus bulls growing up too and my dad use to tell me when I was irritating him to go chase the bulls! He also use to wrap my arms and legs in towels (of course taking proper procautions :D) and tell me to run and he would get the dog to chase and attack me!! haha I got to where I loved it! I use to ask him if we could play with Beau... We also use to get those big huge excercise rubber bands women use to use and we would sit behind the furniture and shoot them at eachother... and of course last but not least! and this is when I got older! My dad is very back woods country... so prepare yourself... we would get a shot gun with rubber dog pellets (doesn't penetrate just stings really really bad) a shot glass and a bottle of liquior, you sit out side (of course) and one person takes a shot... if that person makes a face of any sort they have 5 seconds to get up and run!! while the other person loads the gun (with rubber dog pellets) and shoots at you! haha and then you have to come back and you switch people!.... I know I know...how did I ever survive?? but we lived in the middle of no where... we had to find our own fun!

redhorse5
Feb. 27, 2008, 09:25 PM
If I were in your shoes I would try to appeal to the father in one additional way. If he purchases a "wrong" match not only is his daughter's safety at stake but there is also a lot of emotional baggage that goes with the "first horse". As we all know that first horse can be a heart breaker if it doesn't work out. I think I would appeal to him to lease something more appropriate for now based also on the emotional toll that happens if "Binky" has to be sent away after they get him home and discover that the girl can't ride him.

You might also explain that if he purchases something that needs lots of training it's really expensive. Is there another parent at the barn that could give him a bit of objective advice as well? Perhaps he's heard some trainer "nightmare" stories and doesn't trust the trainer. I know lots of folks here are very legit professionals but we all know that many trainers have done some things that don't exactly pave the way well for others.

piccolittle
Feb. 28, 2008, 07:59 AM
Not sure if anyone has said this yet, but *where* is the little girl in all this??? I grew up riding the most random horses, mostly the $1000 ones my parents got at ridiculous bargains, but I knew enough about horses to realize what they needed. Doesn't Mr. Dad listen to his daughter? It's sweet that he wants to get her a horse, which sounds to me as though if she said something to him he might listen. What ever happened to the good old child temper tantrum???

I'm going to be really harsh and say:

If this little girl doesn't know enough about horses to INSIST her father listen to you, she's not ready to have a horse of her own.

Also to add: I just went on Dreamhorse and did a search for "Lesson Horse" and "Kid-Safe Family Horse" near your area and found about a million dead-looking things for under $10,000. Maybe this is what Mr. Dad did, but if he's just been listening to horse dealers and the like, maybe do a search of your own on the internet and print out a list of them for him to review...

mythical84
Feb. 28, 2008, 08:44 AM
Good luck! Hopefully things turn out well.

Trakehner
Feb. 28, 2008, 10:58 AM
Run Away!

It's just not worth it, in the destruction of your reputation, your happiness with the student and sadly, you're the adult in this weird group.

Just, run away!

thumbsontop
Feb. 28, 2008, 11:18 AM
That's great that the dad is open. I suggest that you tactfully let him know about the dangers of having an event horse that's not appropriate for the sport. You don't want to scare him off, but he needs to understand that safety and physical ability are paramount when you are asking a 1000lb animal to cart your precious child around. And success is important to kids, maybe not first, but coming in last every time with no hope for moving up is tough - especially with a competitive father.

Good luck! Encourage her dad to get her in Pony Club so that her father is involved as well.

3horsemom
Feb. 28, 2008, 12:03 PM
appeal to his competitive spirit.

jumpjesterjump
Feb. 28, 2008, 12:06 PM
I agree with what some of the others are saying that it could go either good or bad. I had an older pony when i first started riding, age 3, but i wasn't off the lunge line for almost two years (big arena with grass poking up). My second pony could be as rank as a rodeo horse one day then the next an angel. I was bucked off almost every day for a year, she was a QH/Welsh cross, she had a long back! BIG BUCK! while i was riding her my mom was throwing me up on the greenies that she would get off the track. I had my lessons on my pony and then would take what i learned on her and apply it to the greenies. After i out grew her i moved onto anything we had in the barn, greenies, schoolies, mom's event horses, boarders that were out of town or too afraid to ride their own. When i finally got my first "packer" I was 15 and ready to have a steady ride so that i could move up from BN and Novice. I had him for a little over 5 years. He taught me how to go training and took me around my first Prelim (we got 3/4 way around, fell off). When i went to school, i kept him with me for a while, but never got above training again. We did the AEC's in '05. After that my mom took over the ride and did a couple of novices on him before he coliced and had to be put down. In the process of all that i had bought a 4 yr old from a BNT and tried to bring him along, It didn't work with the trainer i bought him from. He wanted me to take the 4 yr old that was green broke, i was one of the ones to teach him how to jump, and go novice at his first show ever. Didn't happen, i put my foot down, we went BN and didn't get very far. BNT thought we should go novice next time out event though we couldn't get around BN. It went downhill from there with that trainer and the greenie, pushing us to way more than what was age appropriate, jumping 3'6-3'9 on the greenie that doesn't steer is very scary and a confidence shaker, luckily i had my other horse at the time that would not put a foot wrong ever, and was a confidence builder.

My advice to the father would be if they have the money and they want to buy the greenie, go ahead, but have something more experienced that they could lease or take lessons on to keep the girls confidence up and to stay a couple steps ahead of the greenie training wise. If not she might get discouraged and not want to ride then they are stuck with a green horse and will be paying someone to sell it for them.

Pferd51
Feb. 28, 2008, 01:35 PM
Jennifer,
It sounds like you've made a bit of a start. Maybe you can get him to relax his poll and give up the bit. I think for some of these assertive/aggressive types they just can't submit to conventional wisdom (since it's not wisdom they understand) when it complicates things and gets in the way of what they want to do. Perhaps also a bit of paranoia at being taken (growing out of an internal recogition that they're out of their depth?). Since you are on solid ground, if there is any inclination at all to hear you, the logic may start to have an effect. Good luck.

fooler
Feb. 28, 2008, 02:13 PM
Hi Jennifer,

Will relate story from my old barn.
Father is a lawyer (and very well educated you know), who decides his only child, his daughter was ready for shiny, new pony. Daughter was around the same age as your student with possibly some more time in the saddle.
Instead of working w/ trainer, he made the best deal of all and returned with fancy chestnut young pony.
Long story - short. . . Young girl was bucked off or run away with daily, even with her Dad's "excellent" instruction. To the point in less than one year, kid was scared to death of pony, pony was a snot and Dad had to admit that his idea was not so good.

They sold the pony, at a loss, and got her a proper mount. She regained her confidence and several years later bought a home-bred from the barn owner. And yes, she did well with the home-bred after she learned from her 2nd horse.

Maybe we should let these Dads have a little conversation. . .

Jean

smay
Feb. 28, 2008, 02:35 PM
Funny thing is that I bought a 4-year old for my 11 year old...and it DID work out but all the other variables are different... The 11 year old was in her fifth year of Pony Club, and the 4-year old was a Morgan X pony, 14 hands and very tractable. Still, there have been quite a few tears as the pony learns the ropes and she's been out of the ribbons lots and lots of times.. So now the 11 year old is almost 13 and the pony is 6 and it's time to move on...

Once someone told me an "unoffiicial" pony club rule that really makes good sense: For beginners, the "pony" and the child's age should EQUAL 20. If you think of all your success stories, it almost ALWAYS rings true! Plus, it's really easy for inexperienced, well-meaning parents to understand....

Lori B
Feb. 28, 2008, 02:56 PM
I love the rule for the sum of pony + rider's age = 20, except that for me, I would need a horse who was -23 years old. :lol::lol::lol:

Guyot
Feb. 28, 2008, 03:47 PM
I had the same thing happen: basically parents said they had 3k to spend for their 12 year old kid. I was looking for a lesson horse, the kid wanted a TB so Dad says find her a TB and no not for more then 3k, Mom wants a small quiet TB. Okay, not a great situation for me, but I'll try to help (client had been with me for a year, so I had some time invested at this point, etc.)

I hear about a sweet quiet small TB that is being sold because the owner is leaving the country. I hear about it and go see...its sweet, kind, quiet, and small...perfect, except it's 5. Not my first choice, but hey maybe it can work! So go to the parents explain the situation....nice horse in the budget, just needs a little work on one lead, won't pick up on lead no matter what I do unless I jump a rail or fence. I tell the parents I can "fix" this with probably a month maybe two of training, but everything else looks good. Kid loves the horse, can w/t/c nicely and jump x and 2' verticals; parents agree to 1 month training. They buy the horse and I am making good results in the first week. Horse is learning really quickly kid is riding it twice a week and is starting to find the lead...it looks like it might work. Parents see that the horse is now "fixed" and will not invest in the last 3 weeks. I strongly urge them to reconsider, they decline.

Okay, I'm not happy but the situation is not unsafe, so we continue with weekly lessons and things start to unravel in about three weeks, no lead, etc. Parents say their kid can 'fix' it...... long and short, by three months the horse was starting to get nappy here and there, I'm not happy, and it boils down to one jumping lesson where the horse is so naughty I wouldn't let the kid jump.... now she's trailered in for her lesson in my arena wearing all apprioriate gear including a safety vest.... repeat: I won't let her jump! Horse is a bit nappy, kid kicks then a smack on the shoulder, horse dolphins two or three times, kid falls off, lands on her butt and elbow. I medicate teh scrapes and climb on horse, horse is naughty but quick to come round. Kid won't get back on.

Heres the kicker...... they sued me, for their kid falling off and getting hurt, I should have known the horse would buck and hurt their daughter!:eek: I know all those conversations about continued training and what would need to happen if they bought this horse and didn't follow through were jsut me milking them for $$ not for their benifit, etc.

People just don't take responsibility for their choices anymore, if they would, you can make the greener combinations work. When I was a kid, me and all my friends did and we all survived, but we didn't blame others when we fell off and were hurt, we got back on and tried again or got help! Today people look to blame someone else, so it's not their fault.....:no:

Okay, Im off my soapbox!;)

ozjb
Feb. 28, 2008, 06:56 PM
We have just been through this. You can share my story from the non-horsey parents-of-the-kid point of view!

My daughter started off with a little very safe Welsh A. My daughter is small and at 12 is still on this pony. We needed a bigger pony. At least I had the sense to stay with the ponies, but that's not saying much. Last year, we came across a well-bred 5 year old mare that we thought would be perfect. We thought we were so smart to buy the pony before we needed it, so the daughter could be schooling the mare while still competing the little one. Husband was happy because she wasn't all that expensive.

We spent $$$$$ on training, our trainer's daughter took the mare out to a few competitions. Really, this is a NICE mare. Super talented. But too green and not consistant enough for a 12 year old coming off the safe, safe pony. Yep, my daughter learned to know when a kick out or buck was coming instead of the nice canter transition. She learned to ride through rubbish. The mare taught her to keep her legs neat and tidy. But was that what we really wanted??? Nope.

My daughter would have kept riding her and I might not have clued in to what was really happening, which was a kid who wasn't afraid of the pony but wasn't really enjoying her either. My daughter was always worried about what the mare might do, ridden or on the ground. Even if the mare was being good.

Some friends offered us their 21 year old schoolmaster who has been around the traps for years. Their daughter is at boarding school and the pony needs to stay in work because of some soundness issues. We went to have a ride. Daughter jumps on and off they go. Over the jumps, the girls ride about the farm, in and out of the creek. Gone for ages. I am amazed. This would NOT have happened on our pony. We hadn't gotten to the end of the driveway and daughter is asking about taking the pony to Pony Club Camp!

I knew in my heart that DD wasn't as confident with our little mare, but seeing her enthusiasm after riding this old fellow made me realise how hard the past year has been for her. But, kids get attached. She didn't want to sell the pony. We got lucky and the breeder agreed to take the mare and we will get a foal by a stallion of our choice. It was the best outcome for the my daughter, the pony AND the breeder who has a good reputation for breeding quality children's ponies. This mare had previous training issues, which along with her confident, "I am the Queen of Everything" personality, didn't make for a quiet kid's pony.

So, we now have this gallant old boy in our paddock. No, he should NOT be jumping as big as he did in his youth, but do we care? Not really. I have learned that for my daughter, safe and steady is better at this point than being able to take her to the higher competition levels. I think she will have a better chance at reaching her goals because this old gentleman isn't a pushover and will allow her to really continue to learn to ride competantly and confidently.

AND he was cheaper than the green mare! Husband is happy again. The child? Plans her day around riding. Is always popping out to the paddock to visit her pony. Does all the ground work with him and is confident to tack him up on her own. I always had to be right next to her with the mare.

Sometimes parents ARE dense! We don't see the forest for the trees and sometimes our own enthusiasm gets in the way of sense. WE want the child to be successfull. But I think we forget that riding isn't like soccer. Parents can push a kid in other sports and not be likely to kill them. We might make them unhappy and crazy, but we won't be endangering their lives!

So for us, we won't be going to the Young Rider Championships this year. We won't be doing all the fancy dressage stuff as our new guy isn't a flash dressage pony. He can do it, but mostly he jumps. She can feel happy at our local ODEs. He might take her to our Pony Club State Dressage Championships. He will most likely take her to our Pony Club State Equitation Championships, but if none of that happens, it's OK. He is worth a milliion bucks for what he can teach my daughter. And he is safe. Priceless.

Still looking for the flash dressage pony, but NOT a young green thing! See, we old parents CAN learn! By the time the foal is born from our wrong-choice-but-brilliant mare, my daughter will be ready for a youngster. We won't be breeding until next season and the breeder will then keep the foal with her young ones until we are ready. And she will help us along the way. I know we were lucky!!! And my daughter is riding the breeders 5 year olds now under supervision. Really lucky!!!!

EqTrainer
Feb. 28, 2008, 08:09 PM
:D

OK, this goes completely back to my belief that kids must have been "less precious" in the old days then they are now. We survived without car seats, helmets, being tossed in the water to learn how to swim...Heck, we were even given sharp pointy objects (Yard Darts) and told to stand across from our brother and throw them at each other.



Maybe your parents had big life insurance policies on you :lol:

Or thought having a kid who wore an eye patch would be cool.

Who knows?

EqTrainer
Feb. 28, 2008, 08:12 PM
ozjb, I have just made an arrangement to lease my schoolmaster to a little girl w/a Mom like you :)

Good things do come to those who pay their dues and learn something from it!

Dawnd
Feb. 28, 2008, 08:27 PM
Maybe your parents had big life insurance policies on you :lol:

Or thought having a kid who wore an eye patch would be cool.

Who knows?


Aye matey. Eye patches are cool
I'm still laughing at the poor kid drinking shots under fire! I thought I had it tough!

Savoy 8
Feb. 28, 2008, 08:36 PM
Aye matey. Eye patches are cool
I'm still laughing at the poor kid drinking shots under fire! I thought I had it tough!


HAHAHAHA It was fun though, it became like a family tradition... Exchanging gun fire with dad! the whole family got in on it! Only time anyone ever got hurt was when dad fell into a barbwire fence trying to dodge the dog pellets! needed a few stitches!