Bo's Feet

[J.D.]

For those who have mentioned to Suzanne that things don't LOOK right with her horse, here are some pics and rads from TODAY!! Hot off the press.

Dr. Redden has formulated that a sound average TB horse will have approximately 15mm of sole depth; today 12.73 on the LF and 13.46mm on the right fore ( Clinics of North America , 2003). The average TB with NO "Issues".

Bo has a few or in some instances multiplicity of issues:

LF before trim- http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/appaso/?action=view&current=22CB0001-1.jpg

RF before trim- http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/appaso/?action=view&current=8F340003.jpg

LF after trim- http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/appaso/?action=view&current=57300005-1.jpg

RF after trim- http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/appaso/?action=view&current=40520007-1.jpg

For those who have forgotten this is what P3 looked like from the get go, both pedal bones are similar- http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/bo/?action=view&current=A4E00005original.jpg


Shoes-

LF~~ http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/appaso/?action=view&current=appaso007.jpg

RF~~ http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/appaso/?action=view&current=appaso010.jpg

Have at ladies; the horse jogged sound on concrete today and is ready to be ridden. Thanks Bo! It ain't your time yet!!:D

[feetfirst]

I stand (humbly) corrected, awesome job.

[wildREDhorse]

Cool, how exciting!

[Appassionato]

I stand (humbly) corrected, awesome job.

No, not "humbly"...you never encouraged something off-the-wall for this horse. You also carefully guarded the few comments you've made statements such as "this is what *I* would do, based on PICS" which truthfully means "as seen." No hard feelings, I hope you continue to follow this case since Bo's founder is a pretty severe sinking founder and Bo at 24 YO I spent 20 minutes catching this morning as he ran from me. It's hard to reprimand the SOB, let me tell you! I was running late for my appt., doggoneit! :lol:

Please feel free to learn from this case, I felt your comments were spot on based on pics alone and I do NOT want people feeling stiffled to converse on hooves...neither does Jaye and Dave. Please feel free to ask questions, comment on what you what have done...it isn't personal...it's a learning experience! I live in a county of 10K people (including the college) and we have no real experience in situations like mine...I wanted to try to save mine (humanely) and hope that others in the situation like mine can find help through others experience...or at least respect (say no or that you're in over your head when you are in over your head". This isn't a broad slap across every farrier's hand, please don't think *I* as a horse owner is saying such...respect what you see despite whatI as a horse owner say...no joke, it's scary what is PM'd to me. If it's scaring me, it should give you farriers/trimmers nightmares! :winkgrin:

But please, this isn't a hand slap, feel free to ask any and all questions. My intent in publicizing this case is so no one ever feels like I did...stuck that my horse will just die. At 24 YO now, yes, I can accept it if I found Bo dead in a psture (that doesn't mean it won't hurt)...but what about the 6 YO's that foundered? Isn't that a bit harder to swallow?

[EqTrainer]

Beautiful.

I am so glad you have followed thru with showing these pics. I hope they really help people understand that this is a *process*. In order to get to here, you had to work with what was there before.

:D

[Appassionato]

In order to get to here, you had to work with what was there before.

Jaye and Dave's biggest argument! There's less hoof than you would think from the pics to work with! :winkgrin:

[LMH]

WOW a farrier posted his work!:eek: i am shocked, impressed, scared the sky is falling!:winkgrin:

OK I have to study these and come back with some questions for my education, if you don't mind!:)

[Brian Purrington]

Nice work Jaye.... and Dave.

[reillyshoe]

I don't think there are many farriers who avoid posting their work, I certainly see enough posted on horsehsoes.com.
Nice work, and it is great to see Bo doing well. I know you used the Sigafoos shoes for a while. This is a domed hospital plate technique that I have been using with some positive results.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s224/reillyshoe/DSC01962.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s224/reillyshoe/DSC01963.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s224/reillyshoe/DSC01951.jpg

The hospital plate is atteched to the shoe only at the heel region. Impression material fills the space between the plate and the sole. The plate is made of aluminum, which flexes upon weight bearing, and potentially allows for a dynamic, central weight bearing system. In addition, the convex contour of the plate allows for less resistance on breakover in any direction.

[Brian Purrington]

WOW a farrier posted his work!:eek: i am shocked, impressed, scared the sky is falling!:winkgrin:

OK I have to study these and come back with some questions for my education, if you don't mind!:)

Start a thread asking for pics of work..... I'll bet you get a bunch.

[matryoshka]

Congrats to Bo and Appass! Good work by an excellent farrier! It took me a bit to realize who JD was, and I was wondering why the heck somebody else would be posting about Suzanne's horse. Persistence pays off for sure.

Let us know how the first ride goes!

[matryoshka]

Hey Pat,

Would you mind sharing a bit of history on the feet you posted? They didn't look too bad from the side, but the front view...wow. That looks like another life-saving shoeing package. Admittedly, I know very little about how foundered feet are shod, so assume you are talking to an idiot. :D

[Auventera Two]

24 YO I spent 20 minutes catching this morning as he ran from me. It's hard to reprimand the SOB, let me tell you! I was running late for my appt., doggoneit! :lol:

Run pony run! Don't you just love that??

I always have to laugh when Libbey tears out across the field escaping capture. Yeah, it's a PITA when you just want to catch the darned horse. But after the vet's comments last week on seeing her rads: "It's hard to believe the horse is even walking based on these xrays..." I guess I don't mind so much. :D

I booted her up and took her for a walk down the road yesterday and the whole time she was flinging her head and trying to tear the rope out of my hands. It was all I could do to hang on to her. The old foundered goat!! LOL

I can't see your pics now because they're blocked, but I'll try from home tonight.

But anyway - who is J.D. that started this thread?

[reillyshoe]

Hey Pat,

Would you mind sharing a bit of history on the feet you posted? They didn't look too bad from the side, but the front view...wow. That looks like another life-saving shoeing package. Admittedly, I know very little about how foundered feet are shod, so assume you are talking to an idiot. :D

The horse presented (barefoot) with chronic laminitis and a great amount of displacement between p3 and the hoof capsule. The heels were lowered and the toe backed up to approximate a "normal" mechanical relation between the hoof capsule and the foot.
The shoe was added for teo reasons. The first is to provide some extra stability since the laminitis and trim removed some of the normal hoof structures (such as the dorsal hoof wall). The second is to provide some external mechanical benefit to the foot, using the adjustable frog/sole support as well as the domed mechanics that I mentioned earlier.
This horse first presented in October and has improved well. If things continue to progress, the owners and I discussed removing the shoes and continuing the treatment without shoes (assuming the horse likes this idea) in the early spring.

[Katy Watts]

"It's hard to believe the horse is even walking based on these xrays..."

When Chris Pollitt saw my horses radiographs and heard their story, he said 'I would have told you to put them down'. Hopefully someday the diet/medication/therapeutic hoofcare protocols will be widespread enough that bringing these 'hopeless' cases around will be more commonplace.

I agree that light riding is the BEST thing for these horses. Exercise is the next best treatment after pergolide. The only good footing I've got right now is the driveway turn around and a very muddy 1/4 mile field road that got snow plowed and now thaws in the afternoons. I'm lunging the old mare at trot 15 minutes a day. My younger mare is only completely sound when its warm and the footing is soft, so I'm hand walking/slogging her in mud up and down the road. Walking in mud is really good exercise for all concerned.
Katy

[LMH]

Start a thread asking for pics of work..... I'll bet you get a bunch.

I have several times over the years...no farriers would play.:sadsmile:

[Auventera Two]

When Chris Pollitt saw my horses radiographs and heard their story, he said 'I would have told you to put them down'. Hopefully someday the diet/medication/therapeutic hoofcare protocols will be widespread enough that bringing these 'hopeless' cases around will be more commonplace.

I agree that light riding is the BEST thing for these horses. Exercise is the next best treatment after pergolide. The only good footing I've got right now is the driveway turn around and a very muddy 1/4 mile field road that got snow plowed and now thaws in the afternoons. I'm lunging the old mare at trot 15 minutes a day. My younger mare is only completely sound when its warm and the footing is soft, so I'm hand walking/slogging her in mud up and down the road. Walking in mud is really good exercise for all concerned.
Katy

Great point Katy, I agree with you. My QH gets a little laminitic in the winter when she's not worked as much, and getting more hay. As soon as I can get her working again, she is fine again. I'm convinced the work is the only thing standing between her and founder.

[Katy Watts]

I'm convinced the work is the only thing standing between her and founder.

You can believe that. The researchers are hearing us on this. Hopefully the affect will be quantified and published soon. Already have some published research that shows even 10-15 minutes per day of exercise causes a significant improvement in insulin sensitivity.
Katy

[Brian Purrington]

I have several times over the years...no farriers would play.:sadsmile:
Starts to get good around page 7
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6286

There is more where these came from.....

[Auventera Two]

For those who have forgotten this is what P3 looked like from the get go, both pedal bones are similar- http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/bo/?action=view&current=A4E00005original.jpg (http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/bo/?action=view&current=A4E00005original.jpg)

Bo had a P3 fracture?? I didn't know that. Or am I just stupid, and this isn't a fracture? :confused: (which is totally possible) I just don't remember you saying anything about a fracture. Or is this from the pedal osteitis?

[Appassionato]

Bo had a P3 fracture?? I didn't know that. Or am I just stupid, and this isn't a fracture? :confused: (which is totally possible) I just don't remember you saying anything about a fracture. Or is this from the pedal osteitis?

MULTIPLE fractures...those are the bone fragments that I refused to believe "grew" in size as the inflammation from P.O. simmered down (some folks report that their horse "grew" the bone back after demineralization from laminitis/founder/P.O., because they can see more bone than in earlier x-rays). ;) The fracture will more than likely always be there, but probably not adding to discomfort so long as the hoof stays stabilized. As far as when the fractures happened...we don't know. They were present when I took Bo to Jaye the first time. No D/V shots done by the first vet. It could have been from P.O., it could have been from the founder. And people wonder why I advise D/V shots from a horse owner's standpoint.

"J.D." is Jaye. :winkgrin:

Already have some published research that shows even 10-15 minutes per day of exercise causes a significant improvement in insulin sensitivity.

Although I can't hop on him at all this week :( (no time), about 10 minutes is all I feel comfortable doing. As excited as I am to ride my horse around, I do still have a lot of fear about his hooves. I think when I get my results back from Cornell I'll feel a lot better, and especially when I know more about his diet (grass, hay, things like that) so that I can better control what's going on.

[Tom Stovall]

LMH in gray

Re: Farriers posting pictures of their work

I have several times over the years...no farriers would play.

As I recall, I posted some of my stuff on horseshoes.com in response to your request. (IIRC, my lawyer's OTT show hunter - nice foot, Kerckhaert al shoe set under slightly, show finish) You even said something nice about it, perhaps your memory has gone courtroom convenient. :)

[LMH]

Ah yes Tom I DO recall that!:)

I guess I was referring to over here-there are ALWAYS requests for wellshod feet and no one will play!;)

[Auventera Two]

He had multiple fractures??? From WHAT?! :eek:

Wow, I did not know that. That radiograph made my heart stop.

Ok, my comprehension skills are lacking. lol. I just reread your post and see that you don't know why the fractures. Well, that makes me want to haul Libbey back for those shots too. Holy crap.

[Auventera Two]

Dr. Redden has formulated that a sound average TB horse will have approximately 15mm of sole depth; today 12.73 on the LF and 13.46mm on the right fore ( Clinics of North America , 2003). The average TB with NO "Issues".

Ok - I'm just now able to think about this more.

Are you saying that Bo has 12 and 13 mm of sole depth at this time? I'm sorry, but I don't see that on the rads at all.

Again - what am I missing?

I just had rads done of my QH last week, and about the same amount of sole depth as Bo's rads here are showing, was said to be around 6mm. Well, I can see where Bo's is a little thicker, but not by double.

:confused:

[Appassionato]

Differences in concavity, possibly?

[LMH]

Ok - I'm just now able to think about this more.

Are you saying that Bo has 12 and 13 mm of sole depth at this time? I'm sorry, but I don't see that on the rads at all.

Again - what am I missing?

I just had rads done of my QH last week, and about the same amount of sole depth as Bo's rads here are showing, was said to be around 6mm. Well, I can see where Bo's is a little thicker, but not by double.

:confused:

I was wondering the same thing-the sole depth looks very thin on those rads.

[Auventera Two]

I was wondering the same thing-the sole depth looks very thin on those rads.

This is my mare's rads. The vet diagnosed this as thin soles with about 6 mm to 8 mm of sole depth on both feet, give or take a little due to the beam not being perfectly perpendicular.

http://hphoofcare.com/Thin%20Sole.jpg

http://hphoofcare.com/Thin%20Sole%202.jpg

You can measure the sole depth, then measure the cup and express it as a fraction: say 6/9 mm sole depth. But the concavity isn't part of the measurement. Or so that's now I learned it. (By the way I have NEVER thinned this horse's soles. I don't touch them at all. It's just genetic for her. Her dam had the same identical feet with the same thin soles. Unfortuantely.)

I'm not trying to nitpick, honestly just trying to learn. :)

[Appassionato]

This is my mare's rads. The vet diagnosed this as thin soles with about 6 mm to 8 mm of sole depth on both feet, give or take a little due to the beam not being perfectly perpendicular.

http://hphoofcare.com/Thin%20Sole.jpg

http://hphoofcare.com/Thin%20Sole%202.jpg

You can measure the sole depth, then measure the cup and express it as a fraction: say 6/9 mm sole depth. But the concavity isn't part of the measurement. Or so that's now I learned it. (By the way I have NEVER thinned this horse's soles. I don't touch them at all. It's just genetic for her. Her dam had the same identical feet with the same thin soles. Unfortuantely.)

I'm not trying to nitpick, honestly just trying to learn. :)

I know you're not to nitpick, and actually folks should ask the kinds of questions you and LMH have presented. It is how we learn.

When I mentioned concavity, remember Bo's soles are flat on the ground. His soles truly are convex, and the walls are often shorter than his soles (depending on what's found such as darned hoofworms, or damaged wall just crumbled off). It isn't that I'm claiming concavity to be the answer to your question, but that your mare might have more concavity than Bo does and thus Bo's P3's appear closer to the ground. That is my best guess.

Not nitpicking at you either, I know where and how the vet measures Bo's sole depth, and considering the discussions we've seen about "how to properly measure rotation: P3 to ground, or P3 to dorsal toe wall?", I wonder if the measuring for sole depth might vary from vet to vet as well. How does your vet do it? Doc measures Bo from the flat part of the tip of the P3 (not from the ski tip) and then straight down. Again Bo has convex soles, so maybe this is the way to measure a horse like mine? Vs. a normal horse with concavity? I really don't know if there are differences in measuring or not! With you pics, the place Doc would measure from I don't see a "cup"...the cup or concavity begins posterior to that point. Am *I* off?

[grayarabs]

WOW - what an improvement! J.D. is same as TAFG? Confused here.
Anyway - I see a great improvment since shots of a month ago. What made the difference?
If I knew nothing about the horse/case - just looking at the photos - I would say the heels still under-run a bit - but...........I find something interesting here. AP mentioned not much hoof to work with. OK - thinking about poster wildRED and her photos - with under-run heels - I had mentioned hooves too long. So - both horses shod. Compare these new photos of Bo and the photos of wR - I am theorizing that length of hoof plays into this
somehow. (how much???). I think Bo's hooves good length and wR's too long. Hmmmmmmm.
Although you know I don't like shoes, pads, wedges - I think Bo's latest shoeing very nice - about the best I have seen. All this got me to thinking.......how do over-long hooves play into under-run heels -and correction thereof. We all see horses months overdue for a trim - with UR heels.
We also see horses newly shod with severe UR heels. Methinks too much hoof left the latter. Outside of all the thought/work put into Bo's hooves - I am thinking his present hoof size very important - and makes a difference somehow. Thoughts?

[reillyshoe]

I am writing up a paper on the subject, and found no correlation between underrun heels and toe length.

[matryoshka]

grayarabs, as a volunteer for a horse rescue, I see lots of overgrown hooves, most that do NOT have underrun heels. In fact, last week I trimmed a mare fresh from an Amish farm that has about 2 inches of extra foot, complete with false sole. The well bred Morgan is in her last 6 weeks of pregnancy, so I only took things down about an inch on the first trim. (She was running around the field comfortably when I drove by yesterday.) There was tremendous bright-red bruising in the soles forward of the heels, but it was old, considering the live sole is still about an inch away from where I was trimming.

Underrun heels seem to be more conformational than from neglect. I have found, though, that to get underrun heels under control, one must also bring back the breakover. And it takes time to correct, with new growth graduall getting more vertical. And if the trimmer or farrier trips up (or falls asleep while working), the heels will rapidly underrun again.

This is my opinion based on 3 years of trimming experience. The farriers posting to this thread have considerably more experience with much more pathological feet than I'll probably ever see as a trimmer. An alarming trend I see is more Arabians with feet that want to underrun. Yikes! They are supposed to have good feet.

[J.D.]

I was wondering the same thing-the sole depth looks very thin on those rads.


Evaluating another horse with issues today, I asked the vet to "Pull Up" and re-measure. As stated, 12+ and 13+ mms. The measuring mode of the Idexx system uses a or the Epona like measuring values. Distal tip to solar depth.

Next time we do Bo's feet. ALL are invited to the party. That way all questions will be answered with fact and not hyperbole.:winkgrin::D:winkgrin::D

[J.D.]

:eek:
grayarabs-WOW - what an improvement! J.D. is same as TAFG? Confused here.



Yes. I use my initials. Jaye D.


Anyway - I see a great improvment since shots of a month ago. What made the difference?

persistence and not following the "RULE BOOK" to the letter. Some rules were followed and some were broken. It's a horse, "an ever changing organism".
"When people start putting a measured identity on a horse and allow for no variance; they just backed themselves into a corner."



If I knew nothing about the horse/case - just looking at the photos - I would say the heels still under-run a bit -

Guess ya didn't look at the hind end rads and make an assumption of "compensation"~~~ Homework; Rooney's navicular , hock and horn evaluation.






but...........I find something interesting here. AP mentioned not much hoof to work with. OK - thinking about poster wildRED and her photos - with under-run heels - I had mentioned hooves too long. So - both horses shod. Compare these new photos of Bo and the photos of wR - I am theorizing that length of hoof plays into this
somehow. (how much???). I think Bo's hooves good length and wR's too long. Hmmmmmmm.


You think to much and not enough time in reasearch and under horses. Not being an ass, but opinions are like~~~~~~;)




Although you know I don't like shoes, pads, wedges - I think Bo's latest shoeing very nice - about the best I have seen. All this got me to thinking.......how do over-long hooves play into under-run heels -and correction thereof. We all see horses months overdue for a trim - with UR heels.

Neglect does play a part. Do you ever look into the facts for functional mechanics? If a segment has a flaw(lesion) do you think the lever would function properly? Would it met the specs of the "properly trimmed foot or shod foot over a maintenance cycle?"

Remember, a foot and the surrounding horn reacts to pressures and stresses put upon the dampening apparatus/foot.






We also see horses newly shod with severe UR heels. Methinks too much hoof left the latter. Outside of all the thought/work put into Bo's hooves - I am thinking his present hoof size very important - and makes a difference somehow. Thoughts?


Me thinks you need a course in the "Biomechanics of Lameness" and anatomy. people need to realize that horses are individuals, similar in appearance but different in breed and needs. A basic.
Throw in a few lesions and the game changes:eek::eek::eek:

[Appassionato]

Evaluating another horse with issues today, I asked the vet to "Pull Up" and re-measure. As stated, 12+ and 13+ mms. The measuring mode of the Idexx system uses a or the Epona like measuring values. Distal tip to solar depth.

Next time we do Bo's feet. ALL are invited to the party. That way all questions will be answered with fact and not hyperbole.:winkgrin::D:winkgrin::D

It really is worth people's time to look at Bo (and other cases) in the flesh. It's "enlightening" to see the hooves in person. Folks, any- and everyone really is invited to come. ;)

As far as Bo's hoof length, it is better. A friend of mine from another forum (current customer of AFG) was SHOCKED at how short Bo's hooves really were when she first met Bo. This past time, while a prospective customer (now new customer, horse seen yesterday and owner is thrilled!) was somewhat alarmed at Bo's hooves, but my friend was so pleased at his hoof growth! :D

A question, and all feel free to answer based on experience: are underrun heels sometimes due to the coffin bone shape? Just curious.

[Auventera Two]

Evaluating another horse with issues today, I asked the vet to "Pull Up" and re-measure. As stated, 12+ and 13+ mms. The measuring mode of the Idexx system uses a or the Epona like measuring values. Distal tip to solar depth.

Next time we do Bo's feet. ALL are invited to the party. That way all questions will be answered with fact and not hyperbole.:winkgrin::D:winkgrin::D

Well, I won't argue it, but I still don't see it. I've gotten 3 PMs from other people who also don't see it but are afraid to say it here. :eek: (But you guys know me....:D :lol:)

Honest to pete, I'm not trying to be an arse. Just GENUINELY interested in how the vet found the measurement. For my own education, I would like to know if the fact that the sole is convex has anything to do with it?? If for no other reason, I'd like some input because it's possible that the vet I use incorrectly measured my horse's rads?? It's a possibility. I don't have Metron or anything similar so I have to depend on them to do the measuring. One vet I use doesn't use any software but from a 100 years of experience just knows approximately by looking.

This Ric Redden article shows what 4mm and 9mm look like:
http://www.nanric.com/measure_sole_depth.asp

Where's Rick? I'd like to hear what he has to say.

God knows I'm not saying the vet is wrong! I'm only saying I don't understand, and would love to. :) I'm passionate about feet and everything to do with them. Sometimes to a fault. I question everything because it's the only way I can learn! LOL.

It actually probably has to do something with the scale and distortion of saving radiographs. You need to view them in a 1:1 ratio in order to get accurate measurements. Or so I would think....

[J.D.]

Auventera Two-Well, I won't argue it, but I still don't see it. I've gotten 3 PMs from other people who also don't see it but are afraid to say it here. :eek: (But you guys know me....:D :lol:)

......You need to view them in a 1:1 ratio in order to get accurate measurements. Or so I would think......



Ok, OK, !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I went back and loaded the CD of the rads and used the Iddex program and measured for the 3rd time. The measurements are on a 1:1 ratio; which is provided as a feature with the program.
Here are the RF and the LF.

What one will have to do is to click the link, right click on the image and save to your computer to enlarge rads and the numbers ; arrow at the distal tips of the P3s. Enlargement has to be done with your computer program because I am not 'puter literate enough to enlarge the rads without cutting off the date and name of our "Dear Bo".

RF- http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/appaso/?action=view&current=ENGLISHSUZANNE_APPASSIONATO_RF-LAT.jpg

LF- http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/appaso/?action=view&current=ENGLISHSUZANNE_APPASSIONATO_LF-LAT.jpg

The measurements were before the trim to rocker toes at or damn near the distal tip.

[Auventera Two]

LOL, thank you Jaye! I can't open photobucket links at work, but I'll try from home. :) Thanks for your patience and education. I never question stuff with bad intentions. Only to learn, I swear! :D

[J.D.]

Auventera Two-LOL, thank you Jaye! I can't open photobucket links at work, but I'll try from home. :) Thanks for your patience and education. I never question stuff with bad intentions. Only to learn, I swear! :D

No bad intentions taken. I use rads photos in JPEG format, not from the IDEXX CD; easier manipulate for internet viewing and clinical presentations. :cool::yes:

[Appassionato]

Well, I won't argue it, but I still don't see it. I've gotten 3 PMs from other people who also don't see it but are afraid to say it here. :eek: (But you guys know me....:D :lol:)

That is really disappointing that folks would rather ask you via PM than me, Jaye, or Dave that have actually seen the horse. :no: No offense meant to you, but that's really saddening to me.

Honest to pete, I'm not trying to be an arse. Just GENUINELY interested in how the vet found the measurement. For my own education, I would like to know if the fact that the sole is convex has anything to do with it?? If for no other reason, I'd like some input because it's possible that the vet I use incorrectly measured my horse's rads?? It's a possibility. I don't have Metron or anything similar so I have to depend on them to do the measuring. One vet I use doesn't use any software but from a 100 years of experience just knows approximately by looking.

This Ric Redden article shows what 4mm and 9mm look like:
http://www.nanric.com/measure_sole_depth.asp

People should ask! Don't I ask questions?

The reason *I* mention concavity is because when I look at your girl's x-rays compared to mine, the sole depth looks about the same, but your mare's coffin bone is suspended higher from the ground than my guy's...but the actual depth seems to be close...concavity is all I can think of. Plus, I don't think people really understand what I mean by convexed soles. I can count the number of people on one hand that looked at Bo's x-rays and thought, "Geez, that looks bad..." but when they see his hooves they freak out. Why? They seemed to understand the x-ray! Not mocking you A2, quite the opposite: there's more to x-rays than people *think* they see. I'm certainly no expert either!

Where's Rick? I'd like to hear what he has to say.

Me too! And Tom Stovall is being quiet. I'm feeling needy and unloved here! :lol:

God knows I'm not saying the vet is wrong! I'm only saying I don't understand, and would love to. :) I'm passionate about feet and everything to do with them. Sometimes to a fault. I question everything because it's the only way I can learn! LOL.

It actually probably has to do something with the scale and distortion of saving radiographs. You need to view them in a 1:1 ratio in order to get accurate measurements. Or so I would think....

The vet puts up with me asking questions about everything (including presenting primary articles I've printed off for him) and he still keeps me as a client...I think asking a standard question about measurements could be allowed...:winkgrin: The man has GOT to think I'm nuts, I question EVERYTHING. I border HARD on OCD. :lol: But, all joking aside, he knows I love the dear old goat and try my hardest to give the boy the retirement he deserves. and bless Doc's heart, Bo's no less a patient of his than the sound/serviceable/expensive horses that are on his list as clients. I'm very lucky and very thankful for that! :sadsmile:

[Auventera Two]

Well, I think people are afraid to speak up because this is such a weird case.

I still don't get the sole depth thing, but I'm going to chock it up as a - whatever. I have the client version of VetRay but it doesn't give me the option to measure specific points which is pretty dumb, but hey.

I understand what you're saying about concavity versus no concavity and that's why Ric Redden teaches to measure the actual sole depth, then the cup, and express it as a fraction. But the ACTUAL SOLE DEPTH, regardless of the cup, is what I'm trying to figure out.

OH well. :lol: Some things are never meant to be understood. LOL

[Appassionato]

Well, I think people are afraid to speak up because this is such a weird case.

I still don't get the sole depth thing, but I'm going to chock it up as a - whatever. I have the client version of VetRay but it doesn't give me the option to measure specific points which is pretty dumb, but hey.

I understand what you're saying about concavity versus no concavity and that's why Ric Redden teaches to measure the actual sole depth, then the cup, and express it as a fraction. But the ACTUAL SOLE DEPTH, regardless of the cup, is what I'm trying to figure out.

OH well. :lol: Some things are never meant to be understood. LOL

Well, if they want answers from someone who knows the horse, I've said for folks to feel free to ask. Especially before this were to happen to their horse. I never would have guessed this would happen to mine, but it did.

The horse was measured as shown by Ric Redden...is it the numbers calculated as 12-13 that's confusing you?

[Auventera Two]

The horse was measured as shown by Ric Redden...is it the numbers calculated as 12-13 that's confusing you?

Yes.

[Appassionato]

OK! Is that there seems to be a discrepancy with these numbers verses what people see in the lateral x-rays? If the coffin bone in the A/P and possibly D/V views were normal (no bone demineralization), would it possibly help in understanding why these values are what they are?

Here's the A/P shots:

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2207009690097055594cGQSAj

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2056831420097055594KLJPRb

I don't know if these views help for understanding/discussion or not, but it's worth a shot!

[J.D.]

Auventera Two;Yes.


Why? Explain in detail please.

The horse has compromised feet. The horse has compromised blood flow or circulation. (Exception) no venogram has bee done on Bo's front feet to verify circulatory compromise.


The horse will "never" ; I will repeat "NEVER" have textbook, BUA and or other so called standard feet. There is to much pathology. There is to much mileage, there is to much age.

Even if there was Papal intervention here, the horse is about as good as he will get.

[Auventera Two]

Jaye, I'm not criticizing the horse's feet. I'm just saying that the sole in the pics does not look like 13 mm to me. Not when the xrays I posted are between 6-8 mm and the sole is almost the same. Two vets, two different programs, two very different results. One of them isn't doing it right. It's probably met vet since she's not a world renoun expert. Equine lameness specialist yes - but that's about it.

[Auventera Two]

*nevermind. Too confusing. Too hard to do on the computer.

Carry on.

[J.D.]

Auventera Two;-Jaye, I'm not criticizing the horse's feet.

Never took you comments as criticism.





I'm just saying that the sole in the pics does not look like 13 mm to me.

Posted actual measurement from CD.





Not when the xrays I posted are between 6-8 mm and the sole is almost the same.

Did you use the CD program?






Two vets, two different programs, two very different results.


AH HA!!!!!!

A variance! A different machine, a different meho of radiology? A sense of a so called "standard" is peeking over.





One of them isn't doing it right. It's probably met vet since she's not a world renoun expert.

Our vet is not either. Your horse and Suzanne's horse are probalby as different as night and day. Please refer to my previous post as to "individual characteristics per horse".







Equine lameness specialist yes - but that's about it.

Great!!!

Uniform sole thickness versus cup on a horse . Sole depth in the caudal portion of your rads are suspect; IMO & IME.:eek:

There are two different indenties here, your's and Bo's. Go back and analyze the age, mileage and stats ; your's versus Bo's and we will talk about it;)

[Appassionato]

Jaye, I'm not criticizing the horse's feet. I'm just saying that the sole in the pics does not look like 13 mm to me. Not when the xrays I posted are between 6-8 mm and the sole is almost the same. Two vets, two different programs, two very different results. One of them isn't doing it right. It's probably met vet since she's not a world renoun expert. Equine lameness specialist yes - but that's about it.

How was your girl measured, if I may ask? You mentioned approximation...you mean eyeballing it? I'm only asking for clarification. I think the pics Jaye loaded that have the green lines on them can be downloaded and then enlarged, if folks are interested. I'm supposed to be doing a paper due tomorrow and studying for a test tomorrow or else I'd download it and do it myself. :lol: Maybe tomorrow night?

I mentioned Bo's A/P shots because in comparison to a healthy horse's x-rays, Bo has lots of medial and lateral bone demineralization (instead of nice and pretty points, he "mustang-rolled" BONE :(). In the A/P shots, I wonder how much more suspended your girl's P3's would look compared to Bo's. The D/V shots would have to look MUCH better too! ;)

If people are curious about why there has not been a venogram done on Bo, here's why: I've been advised by many that the process would be too uncomfortable for Bo to withstand. His chances of survival *I* felt were best by tidying what was left of his hooves and monitoring his progress by his comfort levels. As he gets better but older, I'm still hard-pressed to put him through a venogram. Not that I advise against venograms, that would be silly of me. For my situation, it didn't make sense to do one.

[Lookout]

I wouldn't have said those soles look like they're 12-13mm either, maybe 10mm? What's strange though is that they look fairly uniform in thickness in the befores but in the afters they look thinner at the tip of the coffin bone then they were. That seems odd, just wondering why you would do that on a horse with a laminar suspension issue and dropped coffin bone.

[J.D.]

Lookout; wouldn't have said those soles look like they're 12-13mm either, maybe 10mm? What's strange though is that they look fairly uniform in thickness in the befores but in the afters they look thinner at the tip of the coffin bone then they were.


You are correct on the "thinner after trim". Newton~~ for every action there is a reaction.

The trim was to facilitate break over to the extreme. Extreme being that "We finally had enough foot to work with". The application of a rim pad replace he 2-3mm trimmed from the foot we trimmed off. It's called mechanics.




That seems odd, just wondering why you would do that on a horse with a laminar suspension issue and dropped coffin bone.

ODD, Why? Do you feel that the "Customary and Usual" fits Bo's situation?

Do you feel that, if left to barefoot or boot or other foot protocols, there would have been a change in the status of soundness? A change in the time line to soundness?


I am , professionally, trying to wrap my mind around the mantra of the "perfect foot":confused::confused::confused:

[Appassionato]

What's strange though is that they look fairly uniform in thickness in the befores but in the afters they look thinner at the tip of the coffin bone then they were. That seems odd, just wondering why you would do that on a horse with a laminar suspension issue and dropped coffin bone.

The after shots are thinner in those areas, for sure. Opening both the RF "before" and "after" shots and comparing them side by side, I see some differences in the overall hoof itself. Not just the pressure relief by trimming near the tip of the P3, but the heel bulbs in the before vs. after x-ray look different...also the P3 to P2 looks better aligned in the after...but I'm still very new at this so folks please say what you see as well!

Great questions, Lookout! I don't have the answers to them, but they are very legit questions.

[J.D.]

Lookout..... That seems odd, just wondering why you would do that on a horse with a laminar suspension issue and dropped coffin bone


Support to laminae , sole and horn is done with shoes, rim pads and Equithane.

How many " Critical Laminitcs" have you attended to? No smart ass intentions intended, but trying to clarify your mind set in my mind for proper debate.

[matryoshka]

I'm just trying to figure out why there is a problem with the 13mm measurement in some people's minds. I'm assuming that Bo's soles are pretty much level with the walls. 13mm is about half an inch. Looking at the rads, if you size the pic up to be about the width of Bo's feet, then I can see how it could be about half an inch.

I was also surprised at first about thinning the sole at the tip of the coffin bone, but then I remembered that Bo wears shoes and does quite well on them. The trim is simply different when shoes are applied. Go watch a good farrier shoe once in a while, and you'll see what I mean. I just watched a farrier shoe one of the Friesians where I trim, and it made me realize how much I'd forgotten about shoeing! He watched me trim a horse before he did the shoes on another. We respect each other's work. Anyway, there was a big difference between how I trimmed for barefoot and how he trimmed for shoes. Both horses were moving well when finished.

Thank God I haven't worked on any critically foundered cases. Foundered, yes, life-threatening founder, no. That's why I'm so thankful you are willing to share this case with us.

[Auventera Two]

Jaye - thanks for your input. I appreciate the chance to learn from you.

I will call my vet office and ask them to pull up my horse's rads and re-measure. The rads look very similiar, but my vet, using the Vet Ray program got a different result than you guys got with Bo's rads.

I don't have any software at home to measure. All I can do is print off a 1:1 ratio photo and measure with a steel engineering ruler. And when I do that, I got what she did - around 6mm one foot and 8mm the other. :confused:

So I don't know. In any case, it's interesting. Bo is doing better, is comfortable, and that's all that matters. Regardless of what the feet "look" like. I've come to that conclusion with my foundered horse also. Sometimes "pretty" doesn't equal function or correct for that horse. Her feet are ugly compared to normal feet, but pretty compared to what they were a year ago. LOL. All I care about is the comfort and functionality though. I think that's the best you hope for with those foundered cases.

I have homework to do, that's due today aaack so I can't spend much more time thinking about it. Have a b-day party tonight and an all day ride tomorrow. We're supposed to be up near 30 degrees tomorrow! yay! Can't wait to take advantage of it. :D

Appass -do you think you'll get a ride in on Bo this weekend? If you do, I hope you have a great time!! :)

[Auventera Two]

How was your girl measured, if I may ask? You mentioned approximation...you mean eyeballing it?

I use 2 vets and one eyeballs, and one uses Vet Ray.

[matryoshka]

The after shots are thinner in those areas, for sure. Opening both the RF "before" and "after" shots and comparing them side by side, I see some differences in the overall hoof itself. Not just the pressure relief by trimming near the tip of the P3, but the heel bulbs in the before vs. after x-ray look different...also the P3 to P2 looks better aligned in the after...but I'm still very new at this so folks please say what you see as well! I noticed the improved alignment as well. We need to remember that farriers (and trimmers) are working for the health of the leg and horse, not just the feet. Perfect feet on an imperfect leg don't usually work out for long-term soundness. In Bo's case, the feet are compromised and Jaye is trimming/shoeing to keep the horse sound on these feet.

If anybody goes back to the rads from when Jaye first started with Bo, you'll realize how much work has been put into this horse. Suzanne has shared it with us all along. The differences in the before and after shots of one session are nothing compared to the "before" and "after" of this entire process.

My question to Jaye is whether you had this end result in mind when you first started way back when, or were you just going for what improvements you could make each time? If the latter, did you think it would even be possible to get him to this point when you started? I know Bo has had some setbacks along the way, too. I also remember rads that showed a dark space (separation) between the wall and P3. There looks to be much better connection now. I also remember a time when you weren't sure whether he'd be able to grow any sole, considering that his blood supply was likely compromised.

For those of you who are skeptical about the work done here, go back and look at the original stuff that was posted about Bo. It's a good learning experience for all of us. I believe that most horses in Bo's situation would have been put down early on. And if not, they may not have received the type of help Bo has gotten and been put down eventually anyway. It is the persistance of Appass and Jaye that saved this horse. And Bo is in good spirits.

[Auventera Two]

For those of you who are skeptical about the work done here, go back and look at the original stuff that was posted about Bo. It's a good learning experience for all of us. I believe that most horses in Bo's situation would have been put down early on. And if not, they may not have received the type of help Bo has gotten and been put down eventually anyway. It is the persistance of Appass and Jaye that saved this horse. And Bo is in good spirits.


I'm not skeptical at all. No clue if you were suggesting me or not, but I hope not. NO ONE can say what they would do in such a complex case from trim to trim unless they're doing it themself. Even with Libbey, I look at pictures and think - people would criticize this or that - but I know what it takes to keep the horse comfortable. That's why I haven't posted her whole case from beginning to now. I've been through a lot of stuff with her that I haven't posted about here at all. There are too many people who aren't interested in learning, but only fighting.

And I will say that if this were my horse, I wouldn't have gone through all this. But that's just me. I fully anticipated euthanizing Libbey after rescuing her, but I realized her situation wasn't really "that" bad. And I "could" fix her without tremendous pain and money involved. If it were anywhere near as extensive as Bo's case, I wouldn't have done it. But I have other horses - not just the one to devote everything to. It makes a difference when it's your only horse. And I've been through the whole "fix the animal" scenario with a dog and it's so emotionally and financially draining that I won't do it again. The first time I could handle, but I wouldn't be up for a second. I think since Suzanne has wanted to save Bo, she's done the very best that she can for him, and his improvement is proof of that. I'm sure that if at any time it was clear that the pain and suffering outweighed the progress and good days, she wouldn't have continued.

[Lookout]

You are correct on the "thinner after trim". Newton~~ for every action there is a reaction.

The trim was to facilitate break over to the extreme. Extreme being that "We finally had enough foot to work with". The application of a rim pad replace he 2-3mm trimmed from the foot we trimmed off. It's called mechanics.

ODD, Why? Do you feel that the "Customary and Usual" fits Bo's situation?

Do you feel that, if left to barefoot or boot or other foot protocols, there would have been a change in the status of soundness? A change in the time line to soundness?

Support to laminae , sole and horn is done with shoes, rim pads and Equithane.


No, customary and usual wouldn't fit Bo's situation, special consideration for founder and dropped coffin bones would need to be taken into account. Since one of the great dangers with founder is coffin bone penetration it would seem to make sense to maximize the sole thickness there. I would expect that to be a greater priority than facilitating exteme breakover. (not to mention it's not clear how thinning the sole speeds breakover). It's odd (to me) to 'brag' about the sole thickness growing, and then remove it. The sole being thicker back further on the foot doesn't really help him as much as it would at the toe. Thicker sole there might also help get the bone into a better orientation - the bone is about ground parallel but it is still not parallel with the dorsal hoof wall. The laminae are weak in their suspension which is side to side (horizontal) , pushing up on them from the bottom doesn't really support them. Are you saying a pad supports the laminae better than the horse's own sole would? I'm not going to speculate about what would have happened with a barefoot protocol, I'm talking about the trim here (for which there presumably are multiple approaches). I will say though that when Suzanne was first on here looking for advice I recommended she seek out the services of sort of local to her Jaye Perry, she then went to horseshoes.com and got the same advice.

[J.D.]

Auventera Two-Jaye - thanks for your input. I appreciate the chance to learn from you.

Your Welcome.


I will call my vet office and ask them to pull up my horse's rads and re-measure. The rads look very similiar, but my vet, using the Vet Ray program got a different result than you guys got with Bo's rads.


Why is it so hard to "Believe" what one see''s:eek:




I don't have any software at home to measure. All I can do is print off a 1:1 ratio photo and measure with a steel engineering ruler. And when I do that, I got what she did - around 6mm one foot and 8mm the other. :confused:

See above

So I don't know. In any case, it's interesting. Bo is doing better, is comfortable, and that's all that matters. Regardless of what the feet "look" like. I've come to that conclusion with my foundered horse also. Sometimes "pretty" doesn't equal function or correct for that horse. Her feet are ugly compared to normal feet, but pretty compared to what they were a year ago. LOL. All I care about is the comfort and functionality though. I think that's the best you hope for with those foundered cases.


Goes back to the 20% / 80% ratio



.........

[J.D.]

Auventera Two-I'm not skeptical at all. ......


Yes you have been. One has dealt rads out to "your" team" and questioned our team's results.






And I will say that if this were my horse, I wouldn't have gone through all this. .......


That is what makes us all different.

[J.D.]

Lookout;-No, customary and usual wouldn't fit Bo's situation, special consideration for founder and dropped coffin bones would need to be taken into account. Since one of the great dangers with founder is coffin bone penetration it would seem to make sense to maximize the sole thickness there.

correct. It, a healthy sole depth, has been accomplished.





I would expect that to be a greater priority than facilitating exteme breakover. (not to mention it's not clear how thinning the sole speeds breakover).

Ease of break over is to reduce strain on a compromised P3, laminae, horn and soft tissues.







It's odd (to me) to 'brag' about the sole thickness growing, and then remove it. The sole being thicker back further on the foot doesn't really help him as much as it would at the toe.

Yes, production of sole in this horse is an achievement:D.
The application of a rim pads, an extreme rocker and Equipak CS is to reduce a multiplicity of pathologies; just in the feet.

What would one have? ~~

- sole depth~~ achieved that
- break over~~ achieved that
- comfort~~ achieved that
- soundness~~ achieved that
- horse is still alive~~ achieved that



Thicker sole there might also help get the bone into a better orientation - the bone is about ground parallel but it is still not parallel with the dorsal hoof wall. The laminae are weak in their suspension which is side to side (horizontal) , pushing up on them from the bottom doesn't really support them.

You can't please all people; but we have pleased the horse:eek:




Are you saying a pad supports the laminae better than the horse's own sole would?

Rim pads adds profile from the ground. Rim pads reduce Ground Force vibrations. Sole is a good thing, but there are pathologies that require additional appliances for "His" compromised bone, circulatory function and age.

It is really tiresome to me and others who have a grasp, clue and knowledge of pathologies of the foot, that "we" have to keep repeating ourselves.
There is a difference in horses with no pathologies in the feet and those horses that have lesions. The last time~~ foot function is compromised by lesions.




I'm not going to speculate about what would have happened with a barefoot protocol,

Why did you make the statement? Relevance to barefoot with this horse; he would be dead.
Whether barefoot or shod, give horses what they need to live a comfortable life. If one is steadfast on a methodology or protocol without discerning the "needs" of their horse(s); one's horsemanship skills are lacking IMO. I un-shoe horses, sometimes, as a means to an end. I also shoe horses as a means to an end~~~ give them what they need not what one "thinks" they need.:yes:




I'm talking about the trim here (for which there presumably are multiple approaches). I will say though that when Suzanne was first on here looking for advice I recommended she seek out the services of sort of local to her Jaye Perry, she then went to horseshoes.com and got the same advice.

The trim, when we could trim, is applicable to "this" horse.
Thanks for the referral, it's been a hell of a journey:winkgrin::D:D

[matryoshka]

As to getting the P3 aligned with the dorsal wall of the hoof (or getting the dorsal wall aligned with P3), that's probably a pipe dream at this point. I can see how Jaye's trim improved the alignment of the pastern joints, which is what the leg needs. Since we don't know the condition of the basement membrane and how much healthy laminae there are to bind the P3 and hoof wall together, it can't be relied upon as an indication of the trim job. That's why Jaye is going from rads each and every time. In Bo's case, what one sees on the outside may have little or nothing to do with what is giong on inside the foot.

As with other severe founder cases I have had the opportunity to see, the shoe allows the farrier to keep the bones aligned, almost regardless of what the hoof wall is doing. If the walls and laminae were "normal" instead of compromised, the whole picture and protocol would be different.

I, for one, think it is a huge accomplishement to have this much sole on Bo. Whatever Jaye and Suzanne have been doing has encouraged the growth of sole in a horse that had dangerously thin soles before--and there was a question as to whether Bo could grow sole, considering the damage he'd sustained. Now that he's got some breathing room (i.e. thick soles), Jaye can focus more on other issues, such as breakover. That needs to be set according to the needs of the coffin bone. He's doing that with the shoes. IIRC, the breakover hasn't been able to be addressed as much in the past and it had to be left forward of ideal while other parts of the hoof healed.

One thing I've learned from Bo is that I never want to have to deal with this type of founder! :no: If I see it (heaven forbid), I'll tell them to contact New Bolton and Pat can work on it.

[Lookout]

correct. It, a healthy sole depth, has been accomplished.
Yes, production of sole in this horse is an achievement:D.

What would one have? ~~
- sole depth~~ achieved that



Not anymore - it's been trimmed away.


Why did you make the statement?

I didn't make the statement. I was answering your question, directly. You asked - I answered.

[Appassionato]

Appass -do you think you'll get a ride in on Bo this weekend? If you do, I hope you have a great time!! :)

I didn't get to ride this weekend, but I did get to ride yesterday! :D I rode about 10 minutes, just walking around bareback with a halter. He actually felt pretty good! Strangely enough, he preferred firm ground to soft ground, I don't know why...must ask Jaye about that soon. Today it's stormy so I doubt I'll get a chance to ride, but that's OK. I'll ride tomorrow!

[J.D.]

Lookout;-Not anymore - it's been trimmed away.


OK YOU WIN!!!! See post #65.

Here's an oldie. Way before Bo's journey and i helped this one also by trimming and shoeing. Btw, this is the good foot:eek::yes::cool:

http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/?action=view&current=Picture060-2.jpg