Hoof Gurus, Please Evaluate/Educate

[wildREDhorse]

Ok, now I'm curious. Here are some pictures from this morning.

Background:
The horse has had some severe laminitic episodes in the last 7 months. Ensuing problems have been treated and managed and she is doing well. Front feet laminitis free at this point. She has been perfectly sound since November, besides brewing abscesses in the back now. (Let's not talk about causes, feed, etc, those have been addressed elsewhere for now)

But what I WANT to ask is for an evaluation of the shoeing. Please let me know what you think. Please explain in laymans terms what you mean if it's complicated or a *different* idea. Thanks!!

Horse gets a cup of Horseshoer's Secret each evening.

Left front had a large chunk come off the bottom ~5-6 months ago after a big abscess.

I like my farrier, so let's keep this educational please.


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[irishcas]

Okay WildHose:

You love your farrier how? He is nice, friendly and charming? Great because if you love him for his hoofcare you love is misplaced.

Your horses feet are disturbing to look at. I'm sorry I know that is a hard thing to hear but it's true.

Gosh where do I start, the bullnosed aspect of the feet, the high heels, the long toe....

Please go and review the following sites. The owner is the final spokesperson for the horse. educate yourself in what a proper hoof form is!

www.ironfreehoof.com
www.hoofrehab.com
www.barefoothorse.com
www.healthyhoof.com
www.hopeforsoundness.com

[wildREDhorse]

Ok, how does one fix the bull nose problem?

[sublimequine]

I can't say much because I'm no farrier, but those look like they have quite a few problems. :eek:

I'm going to take an educated horseowner guess and say I see really long toes, smushed heels, and shoes that are too small. As well as bullnosed, which someone else already mentioned. :)

[wildREDhorse]

This is why I'm asking... I am no hoof expert, and trust my farrier, but having a chat with a fellow COTHer, it was brought to my attention that there were some issues, so I'd like to hear opinions, and get some help making a plan to fix them. :) Please continue to educate! Thanks!

ETA: I am the owner, and no farrier. So I am trying to get some extra opinions so that I can help my horse if what is currently being done is such a problem. I trust my trainer and farrier, but according to what you guys have said so far, it sounds like maybe it was a good idea to get some help/advice here. I have thought they were not looking right, but don't know much about feet, so I am trying to learn.

Guess she needs 2's instead of 1's. Poor ol' big foot. :(

Please help me, not attack me.

[Rick Burten]

At the time the photos were taken, how long had it been since the horse was last trimmed and shod and what is the normal trimming/shoeing interval?

I'd like to see some photos of the bottom of the feet.

Thanks.

[wildREDhorse]

hoofrx - She got her feet done February 4th. She gets them done every 6 weeks.

I will take pictures of the underside of her feet tomorrow morning. The vet has noted that they are flat, not something I had even thought about previously, but I now know it's a problem.

ETA: You guys have said something is not right with her heels, I have noticed that it seems like there is the foot right below the coronary band, then it awkwardly comes in, then down. I thought that was funky looking, but neither trainer nor farrier has ever said anything. Is this part of what you're talking about?

[LMH]

If you love and trust your farrier why are you asking people on a BB to help you?:confused:

If you have to get advice on a BB and intend to ask your farrier to make these changes, then perhaps it would be best to save the love for out from under the horse and find someone who can do the job well without an armchair quarterback.

I hope these photos are full of distortion and this is not what the feet look like live.

[Katy Watts]

While it is pleasant for our hired professionals to be 'nice', I would much rather deal with nice people in a social setting, and have a grumpy, difficult, demanding professional who does his job very well.
These feet would not run forward so badly if the base of support where further back.
Katy

[JHUshoer20]

This is why I'm asking... I am no hoof expert, And neither are the vast majority of people on this board so why do you come here to ask those no more qualified than yourself?

ETA: I am the owner, and no farrier. So I am trying to get some extra opinions so that I can help my horse if what is currently being done is such a problem. So now due to these people's opinions you think you got a problem now? I trust my trainer and farrier, but according to what you guys have said so far, it sounds like maybe it was a good idea to get some help/advice here. Talk to your trainer about riding and your horseshoer about shoeing. As I've pointed out no, it was not a good idea to get advice here. I have thought they were not looking right, but don't know much about feet, so I am trying to learn. And if you by your own admission don't know much about feet then how do you judge right from wrong? There are far better places for you to learn than on an internet bulletin board.


Nothing seriously wrong. The bullnosed appearance comes from toe dubbing. I was raised and trained to never do such things but the contemporary school of thought is to often do things that way for various reasons. When I came up it was only cowboys. Can't really judge because your guy may have had a reason for doing that.

Aside from that the job looks a few weeks old. When you post pictures of a job don't ever post pictures of more than a week old job. The fresher the better.

Most importantly don't bring a shoeing job to be judged by a bunch of barefoot zealots and people who have never shod a horse in their lives!

Hope that helps
George

[deltawave]

These are dangerous waters, WildRED. Nobody here EVER thinks a foot is done properly, unless they've done it themselves! :lol:

Can you ask your farrier how he thinks the horse's feet could be improved? What does HE actually think? Can you have another farrier come out and give you a second opinion?

FWIW (not much!) I think the toes look a little long. But if the horse has had several laminitis episodes you just can't go waling away and lopping things off.

[TrueColours]

This is a terrific forum to pose all hoof and shoeing related questions:

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/index.php

The farriers that are on board are really great about offering not only their opinions but also questions and concerns that you can raise with your own farrier ...

Good luck! :)

[Daydream Believer]

Okay WildHose:

You love your farrier how? He is nice, friendly and charming? Great because if you love him for his hoofcare you love is misplaced.

Your horses feet are disturbing to look at. I'm sorry I know that is a hard thing to hear but it's true.

Gosh where do I start, the bullnosed aspect of the feet, the high heels, the long toe....

Please go and review the following sites. The owner is the final spokesperson for the horse. educate yourself in what a proper hoof form is!

www.ironfreehoof.com (http://www.ironfreehoof.com)
www.hoofrehab.com (http://www.hoofrehab.com)
www.barefoothorse.com (http://www.barefoothorse.com)
www.healthyhoof.com (http://www.healthyhoof.com)
www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com)


I agree with Kim. Your best bet is to educate yourself so you can evaluate your farrier/trimmer's work. I also see lots wrong with those feet and so will you when you check out the sites she gave you.

[wildREDhorse]

The reason I asked is to get what opinions I get, the eyes of those on them that don't see them everyday, then I can sift through and figure out what and if I need to do something. And figure out some questions to ask my farrier. Nothing to keep someone on their toes than to know a little about what they're doing and be educated yourself so you can see things that are happening.

Thank you to those of you who gave helpful comments, guided me in the right direction, and gave me a good direction to go.

[caballus]

Please check out www.barefoottrim.com for the article on Hoof Balance. It's listed in EDUCATIONAL under "Basic Form of the Hoof" (link at bottom of page) then, compare your horse's hooves with those shown with the guidelines there. Also look at the way your horse is standing. I agree with Katy - base of support is too forward; heels need to come back; toes are too long; the pastern angle is broken, etc. Shoes or no shoes the BALANCE of the hoof has to be correct in order to have a healthy, properly functioning hoof. That happens with the trim as well as with the diet and environment and movement of the horse. The trim might be a good place to start.

[wildREDhorse]

Thanks :) Article is very helpful cabaluus.

[TrueColours]

wildREDhorse- kudos to you for learning as much as you can ... :)

I also stress to my Mare Owner clients to learn as much as they possibly can about the process of getting their mares in foal to not second guess the vets they have hired, but to learn and so they can question some things if they simply dont make any sense at all ...

Case in point.

Last year a Mare Owner called ordering semen for her Warmblood mare on a Friday and I asked how big the follicle was and was told "a 29" and I was rather taken aback as usually with WB mares, they can go well up into the 50's before they ovulate and 29 is insane, IMO, to order semen on ...
So - I told her to ask the vet about uterine folds, edema, softening of the follicle - ANYTHING to give me some sort of an idea as to why in heaven's name he was ordering it this soon and she was told "You ask me too many questions that I am not able to answer"
So she then asked for MY recommendation (which believe me - I HATE to do from thousands of miles away, plus I am NOT a vet but I feel bad having her spend money for no reason at all ...) and I told her to wait til Monday, ger her re-checked then and to make a long story short, we finally got the call on the following Friday - one week AFTER her vet had originally asked for it - to say that she was at a 49 and folds and edema were now in evidence so she was inseminated the next day and got in foal

But now she knows what does and doesnt sound right and she has no problem at all questionning her vet if he comes up with something that simply doesnt make sense to her at all

I also have no problem in saying to my blacksmith "I dont like the angle on that foot. I would like to see this instead. Is there any structural or physiological reason why you cannot do what I am asking for?" and then they either agree or in one case said absolutely no - if I do what you are asking for it will throw this out and that out and the horse will suffer this as a result and thats all I needed to hear - a valid reason why my request could not be carried out ...

Good luck! :)

[wildREDhorse]

TrueColours - WHAT AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE.

In addition, I have found that the more competent one is, the more likely a person is willing to go into things to teach you at a higher level, as well as look for the real right answer if you are interested in something. :)
PLUS, if we are more educated, we might notice something day to day that the farrier doesn't notice when (s)he comes every 6 weeks, so we can help throw out ideas and make it work for everyone better.

We should be able to understand in order to take part in our horse's healthcare.

Thanks!

[Posting Trot]

I think you deserve a lot of praise for trying to educate yourself about the hooves. It's far better to be an educated consumer/client than to simply trust in professionals blindly. Even the best vets and shoers/trimmers don't know your horse the way you do and may not be so clued into the results of various treatment options.

It's not necessary for anyone to take whatever knowledge they gain and then immediately think they know everything there is to know. But you can't ask intelligent questions unless you have some kind of knowledge base.

I will say though if if my farrier or vet refused to discuss various options or blew off my questions, then I'd seriously consider firing him or her.

From the photos, and in my extremely inexpert opinion, the horse seems to have long toes, and the shoes seem to be following the toes forward as well as being too small (perhaps). If this observation is correct then the horse's breakover point is way out in front of the column of the leg, and that *might* create some of the problems you're seeing.

Or, it *might* just be compounding other underlying problems that have nothing to do with the trim/shoeing.

Good luck.

[caballus]

We should be able to understand in order to take part in our horse's healthcare. ... AMEN !! Yes ... horse owners should do all they can to educate themselves on their *kids'* healthcare ... absolutely agree with this 150% *GRIN*

[JB]

And neither are the vast majority of people on this board so why do you come here to ask those no more qualified than yourself?

How about as a first step? If she sees everyone saying "I don't see any problems, things look good", that might tell her things really are ok or at least headed in the right direction. But if she sees the majority saying "hmm, things really don't look so good and here's why", then she has a starting point from which to begin looking and asking questions. How is asking here any different from asking her vet and her farrier and her trainer and her best friend and looking at any number of books she could pick up in a library? Goodness, it's a wonder anyone dares to post pictures for critique anymore because of responses that say "well if YOU don't know..." :rolleyes:

So now due to these people's opinions you think you got a problem now?
Perhaps you saw that she already thought there might be a problem from talking to someone else, hence this post.

Talk to your trainer about riding and your horseshoer about shoeing.
OMG, if that's all anyone ever did, it would be a wonder if half the horses out there would be properly trained or trimmed/shod!

As I've pointed out no, it was not a good idea to get advice here.
So this whole bb, and every other bb out there, is worthless for any advice on diet, nutrition, hoof care, training, barn building, pasture maintenance, and whatever else there is. Why are *you* here then, if all the advice here is worthless? If you say it's to keep the riffraff from giving these poor unknowing posters bad advice, how is she to know your advice is any better?

And if you by your own admission don't know much about feet then how do you judge right from wrong? There are far better places for you to learn than on an internet bulletin board.

Then TELL her where those places are! You just love to say "you're doing this wrong" and never tell anyone how to do it right. Yeah, that works well.

Most importantly don't bring a shoeing job to be judged by a bunch of barefoot zealots and people who have never shod a horse in their lives!


Oh darn, she forgot to say "barefooters, please ignore this, don't post anything, I only care about how the shoe looks, never mind that the trim might be garbage, I'm not concerned about that".


wildred - it would be even more helpful if you could post pictures of what the feet have looked like in the past. It's one thing to say these feet need help here, but if they are vastly improved from, say, 3 months ago, that is an entirely different story.

[Bogie]

Are you usually there when your farrier shoes your horse? I always hold my horses for my farrier and have found it's a great time to ask her about my horse's feet and any questions that I have. Heck, with two horses I'm there for awhile so she has plenty of time to explain why she does something. Or why she shoes one horse differently from another.

When my vet is out for other things, I'll also have him take a peek at their feet, too.

In my experience, people who know about a specific topic like to share their knowledge, especially if it's presented in the "please help me learn" guise rather than a "why did you do that".

[irishcas]

Good Post/Response JB:

Wild I reread my post and didn't mean it as an attack on you, was tired and it was late, so sorry.

I disagree with George that the foot looks bullnosed because of toe dubbing. Your horses heels are much to far forward. Imagine your weight when walking is balanced at the arch of your foot instead of back at the heel.

Your horses toes the LF more than the RF are much much too long (run forward) and they didn't get that way in 1 - 4 trim/shoe resets. This foot has been this way for a long time.

It can be fixed but knowing how to do so is the key. If you have had the same farrier for more than 2 years he is not doing your horse any favors.

The heels don't need to be wedged up or as some professionals say "your horse has to grow heel" What needs to happen is the breakover (toe length) needs to be brought back over time and this will push the heels back - over time.

Yes seeing more detailed photos, sole, heel, back of foot, oblique shots will give those who want more info. It doesn't change the fact that your horses feet are unhealthy and could be improved. Shod or barefoot. What matters most is the underlying trim.

Where are you located, maybe those here could offer you suggestions for a consult with another farrier.

I recommend to long distance clients to first understand what a healthy hoof is. Then go around to other barns and look at the feet and pick a farrier whos work you like :)

Good Luck,

[JHUshoer20]

How is asking here any different from asking her vet and her farrier and her trainer and her best friend and looking at any number of books she could pick up in a library? Goodness, it's a wonder anyone dares to post pictures for critique anymore because of responses that say "well if YOU don't know..." :rolleyes: Easy, because people on here and elsewhere will see everything as a problem. Their lack of experience will have them always looking for a textbook illustration type example and any variation from that is seen as a problem. Did anyone here see the whole horse? Judge it's conformation? Ask what it does for a living? Watch it move? No, they judged from one picture at one angle of a several week old job and quite predictably bombarded the OP with links to barefoot sites.


Perhaps you saw that she already thought there might be a problem from talking to someone else, hence this post.
Horse owners do that all the time. She could have been talking to a moron




So this whole bb, and every other bb out there, is worthless for any advice on diet, nutrition, hoof care, training, barn building, pasture maintenance, and whatever else there is. Why are *you* here then, if all the advice here is worthless? If you say it's to keep the riffraff from giving these poor unknowing posters bad advice, how is she to know your advice is any better?
She didn't ask any of that other stuff she asked about a shoeing job. Something her horseshoer is more qualified to speak on than anybody here especially the BUA. As to me, absolutely DON"T listen to me. Ask your horseshoer. Take everything from the internet with a big grain of salt.


Then TELL her where those places are! You just love to say "you're doing this wrong" and never tell anyone how to do it right. Yeah, that works well.
Just did


Oh darn, she forgot to say "barefooters, please ignore this, don't post anything,
Now that you mention it that might have been a good idea too

wildred - it would be even more helpful if you could post pictures of what the feet have looked like in the past. It's one thing to say these feet need help here, but if they are vastly improved from, say, 3 months ago, that is an entirely different story.
True, on that one we agree

George

[Lookout]

Ok, how does one fix the bull nose problem?

There's not really a bullnose. The toes are long and the farrier is trying to shorten them by dubbing them back. The shoes are very forward on the heel, if they were moved back (the base of support as Katy said) the toes would be able to be shortened more correctly.

This looks like a fairly typical shoe job to me, what you see every day.

[irishcas]

Easy, because people on here and elsewhere will see everything as a problem. Their lack of experience will have them always looking for a textbook illustration type example and any variation from that is seen as a problem. Did anyone here see the whole horse? Judge it's conformation? Ask what it does for a living? Watch it move? No, they judged from one picture at one angle of a several week old job and quite predictably bombarded the OP with links to barefoot sites.

Okay so George, you feel that these feet are in good shape? You feel that if we had seen them 1 week into the trim that there would be some miraculous difference?

Bombarded? Seriously? 2 people, 1 of them me, posted links to sites that show a VARIETY of feet, healthy and unhealthy, nothing textbook perfect about them. I would not use the word Bombarded though, maybe you are feeling a little defensive?

You are right that the whole horse should be evaluated, but no horse should have such a long breakover with such underrun, pulled forward, heels. It does not take a genius, expert, vet, layman, owner, etc much to figure out that these feet are unhealthy and have been for some time. Now if this farrier is new to this horse than s/he could be doing a fantabulistic job. IF the farrier has been working on this horse for a year or more, than s/he is part of the problem, not the solution. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out either.

I did not see one post that told the OP to PULL the Shoes and heal thyself barefoot :rolleyes:

So either offer advice or ignore the post. It is you who starts the arguments by ridiculing people. Sheesh.

[Rick Burten]

There's not really a bullnose. The toes are long and the farrier is trying to shorten them by dubbing them back.
Interestingly enough, that is the same conclusion I came to when I looked at the photos. Hence my question as to how far into the trimming/shoeing cycle it was when the photos were taken.
The shoes are very forward on the heel, if they were moved back (the base of support as Katy said) the toes would be able to be shortened more correctly.
While I agree that it looks like the heels and their support need to be further back, what does pulling the heels back have to do with ones's ability to shorten the toe?
This looks like a fairly typical shoe job to me, what you see every day.
Maybe its what you see every day, but please don't attempt to speak for anyone/everyone else. Its not what I see every day, so there ya' go.

[Daydream Believer]

Maybe its what you see every day, but please don't attempt to speak for anyone/everyone else. Its not what I see every day, so there ya' go.

I see a lot of feet that bad or worse. Long toes and underrun heels are an epidemic in my area then I guess.... ;)

[JHUshoer20]

Okay so George, you feel that these feet are in good shape? You feel that if we had seen them 1 week into the trim that there would be some miraculous difference? Would probably have looked quite different yes. More than likely the presence of a shoe would have set you all off anyway though.

Bombarded? Seriously? 2 people, 1 of them me, posted links to sites that show a VARIETY of feet, healthy and unhealthy, nothing textbook perfect about them. I would not use the word Bombarded though,
Yes I think that's an accurate description. Happens every time so was quite predictable. Give it time I'm sure more will come. That's why I wish the moderators would immediately lock it up with the first appearance of that BS

You are right that the whole horse should be evaluated, Then why does nobody acknowledge that before they start sniping towards a horseshoer but no horse should have such a long breakover with such underrun, pulled forward, heels. And how do you know this? Nobody told the animal's history, genetics, environment or any other such thing. It does not take a genius, expert, vet, layman, owner, etc much to figure out that these feet are unhealthy and have been for some time. And you know this because? Now if this farrier is new to this horse than s/he could be doing a fantabulistic job. would have been nice if you could have said that before instead of pushing BUA IF the farrier has been working on this horse for a year or more, than s/he is part of the problem, not the solution. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out either. Assuming there is some kind of problem how do you know it wasn't 10 times worse before this guy started on it?

I did not see one post that told the OP to PULL the Shoes and heal thyself barefoot :rolleyes:
The links to BUA propaganda do exactly that

So either offer advice or ignore the post. It is you who starts the arguments by ridiculing people. Sheesh.
Stand and behave yourselves if you don't want a lipchain applied:D
George

[Katy Watts]

Long toes and underrun heels are an epidemic in my area

Yup. Here, too. That's why a group of folks here have networked to get a better educated farrier to drive 3 hours to fix 'em up, or we haul to him. We have several folks with indoor arenas offer working space, and one lady with the most horses works up the schedule. Supposedly 'unfixable' cases of LT/LH are fixed in 2-3 shoeing cycles.

What's really scary is the LT/LH syndrome is becoming so common place I worry that it has become the new standard for 'normal'.
Katy

[Amchara]

I didn't read everything, but I thought I'd contribute this as it being repeated is useful.

I always talk to my farrier about my horse's feet when he is here. He hasn't shown any "I'm the farrier, you just hold the horse" hostility, and in fact seems to appreciate that an owner is taking interest in their horse's hoof quality, even if it means asking questions and taking five minutes to explain something.

Ask him, if he is such a nice guy as you let on, he'll answer. :).

[caballus]

What's really scary is the LT/LH syndrome is becoming so common place I worry that it has become the new standard for 'normal'.
KatyAnd that's perhaps one reason why "barefooters" are opting to be "out there" and verbal/visual/outspoken in order to help educate others for the better of the horse?

If everyone just goes along with what is considered "normal" then one misses the best part of the roast! :) (anyone familiar with the ole rump roast story?)

[Auventera Two]

It's impossible to evaluate feet WELL from photos. I can mention things that I "think" I see in the photos and you can pursue those ideas further, or disregard them if you know for a fact the comments are off base due to the looks of the feet in real life.

~ Toes are dubbed. I don't believe those are true bull noses from a negative palmar angle P3. It's this fad of toe dumping that I absolutely despise. It's ugly and it's lazy.

~Toes look long. Would like to see more heel support from the shoes. Shoes are following toes forward.

~Heels look underrun and on the way to being nicely crushed if not addressed sooner rather than later.

~For only being a couple weeks out of the reset, these feet look far worse than they should.

But again, that's only my opinion based on what the pictures appear to be showing. The only way to truly know is to evaluate the horse in person.

[JB]

Easy, because people on here and elsewhere will see everything as a problem. Their lack of experience will have them always looking for a textbook illustration type example and any variation from that is seen as a problem.
Who says that the people the OP, or any horse owner looking for information, go to for help in real life will have any clue what to do about feet? Trainers sure don't, vets sure don't, it's apparent from the vast number of "please help me help my horse's feet" threads that many farriers don't. Why is this bb any different when it comes to experience?

Did anyone here see the whole horse? Judge it's conformation? Ask what it does for a living? Watch it move? No, they judged from one picture at one angle of a several week old job and quite predictably bombarded the OP with links to barefoot sites.
Honestly, if a foot looks remotely like this after a few weeks, it didn't look a heck of a lot better when freshly done. We've been over this barefoot site linking before - what is your problem with them? Please tell me, specifically, what issues you have with each of those sites in how they trim. If you can't, then it's more of "that's wrong, but I won't tell you why". If you don't like people trying to help with their list of barefoot (OMG!) sites that show what healthy feet look like, as well as UNhealthy feet, then ante up and shoe farrier sites that shows all that, as well as how to apply the shoe.


Horse owners do that all the time. She could have been talking to a moron
You're right, she could have been talking to someone who doesn't know a thing about feet. But it get her INTERESTED in the health of her horse's feet, now didn't it? And guess what George, I had numerous conversations with my farrier at one point who told me my horse's feet were fine. Guess he was a moron, because they were far from fine. Thankfully a massage therapist out working on my horse told me that the long toes were leading to the shoulder soreness, among other things. Good thing I didn't just keep trusting my farrier because "he should be the one I should be talking to".

She didn't ask any of that other stuff she asked about a shoeing job.
How can one possibly do justice to a conversation about a shoeing job without also talking about the current condition of the foot?

Something her horseshoer is more qualified to speak on than anybody here especially the BUA.
You don't know that since you have no idea of the qualifications of her farrier.

As to me, absolutely DON"T listen to me. Ask your horseshoer. Take everything from the internet with a big grain of salt.
Take what your farrier says with a grain of salt too.

Would probably have looked quite different yes. More than likely the presence of a shoe would have set you all off anyway though.
Unlike many farriers who get into a tizzy when someone talks about trimming instead of shoes, most barefooters don't get into a tizzy when shoes are present.

That's why I wish the moderators would immediately lock it up with the first appearance of that BS

How sad that you think Mods should lock a thread because someone is trying to help :no:

would have been nice if you could have said that before instead of pushing BUA
WHO pushed barefoot? Nobody. It's your Pavlov response to anyone who dares to post a site that shows feet without shoes.

[onthebit]

Maybe its what you see every day, but please don't attempt to speak for anyone/everyone else. Its not what I see every day, so there ya' go.

If I posted the hoof pictures I take of the retirees when they arrive at my farm, I'm sure we would have at least a 100 page thread. The hooves under discussion in this thread are (sadly) better than a lot of what is sent to my farm every day. And most of these horses were "big time" show horses in h/j or dressage, living in fancy show barns with supposedly the "best" farriers. The horses are shipped here from all over North America so I'm seeing the work of many different farriers. Sadly, the average age of a retiree here is 14 years old. Not surprising if they've had 10 years or so of this kind of farrier work.

Not bashing on you Rick in any way, the part I quoted just jumped out at me. I am simply commenting on what I see every day. I have no doubt it would make you go :eek: .

[JHUshoer20]

If I posted the hoof pictures I take of the retirees when they arrive at my farm, I'm sure we would have at least a 100 page thread. The hooves under discussion in this thread are (sadly) better than a lot of what is sent to my farm every day. And most of these horses were "big time" show horses in h/j or dressage, living in fancy show barns with supposedly the "best" farriers. The horses are shipped here from all over North America so I'm seeing the work of many different farriers. Sadly, the average age of a retiree here is 14 years old. Not surprising if they've had 10 years or so of this kind of farrier work.

Not bashing on you Rick in any way, the part I quoted just jumped out at me. I am simply commenting on what I see every day. I have no doubt it would make you go :eek: .

Once again we see nothing of this nature posted by any of our British friends. State licensing is the answer people!:yes:
George

[feetfirst]

Education is the key. Learning about as many shoeing disciplines as possible will only make you a better horse owner. If you can't have a enlightened conversation with your farrier, find one that will take the time to explain something to you. I'm not advocating replacing your farrier, if you board at a public stable, or are near one, you can find a wide selection of farriers working almost any day of the week. Some of us like to answer questions, listen while other people talk, and generally give the fine art of farriery a good name. Heck, I can even almost shoe and talk at the same time.;)
Whereas I feel that the slant here on COTH is a little to the right of my schooling and experience, I have never argued on a public forum unless I felt that something being said was dangerous to horse or owner.
My opinion on your horse's feet aren't earth shatteringly relevent, and I'd say that the same applies to most people's opinions here today.

[Katy Watts]

Once again we see nothing of this nature posted by any of our British friends. State licensing is the answer people!:yes:
George

Is it the piece of paper and a fee? Or is it the apprenticeship program they are required to participate in?
Is there any data on the ratio of Master Farriers to horses in the UK and Certified (any brand) farriers in the US? I wonder if we just don't have enough qualified professionals to take care of all the horses? Around here if you have a hammer and a knife and say you know how to shoe, someone will be desperate enough to use you regardless of your lack of training or license.
Katy

[JHUshoer20]

Is it the piece of paper and a fee? Or is it the apprenticeship program they are required to participate in?
Is there any data on the ratio of Master Farriers to horses in the UK and Certified (any brand) farriers in the US? I wonder if we just don't have enough qualified professionals to take care of all the horses? Around here if you have a hammer and a knife and say you know how to shoe, someone will be desperate enough to use you regardless of your lack of training or license.
Katy
Being as that the British are all registered their records are pretty precise. Whenever Thomas1 comes on he can speak more about it. Fact of the matter is in the US the only thing necessary to be a horseshoer is to wake up one day and start calling yourself one. Is an unfortunate oversight in our law.

I'm not optimistic that it will ever change as long as horse owners don't demand it.
George

[Lookout]

Once again we see nothing of this nature posted by any of our British friends. State licensing is the answer people!:yes:
George

You need to educate before you can license. And why by state?

[JHUshoer20]

You need to educate before you can license. And why by state?
That's how occupational licensing is done in this country. Stuff of that nature is handled at the state level.
George

[Lookout]

Interestingly enough, that is the same conclusion I came to when I looked at the photos. Hence my question as to how far into the trimming/shoeing cycle it was when the photos were taken.

While I agree that it looks like the heels and their support need to be further back, what does pulling the heels back have to do with ones's ability to shorten the toe?
First it will make the whole foot when looking from underneath appear longer: the distance from edge of toe to end of heels will increase and it will become more obvious how very long the toe really is, by many of the guidelines to determine length.
For whatever reason this awkward dubbing seems to be the way farriers shorten toes, I don't know why it is. When my horse had high/low feet the extremely high heeled foot was dubbed very short in accordance with the vet's instruction that that toe must be shortened. But the foot with the underrun heels actually had the really long toe and was not dubbed. It was horribly unbalanced looking. Not until the heels were lowered and brought back was the toe able to be shortened properly.

Maybe its what you see every day, but please don't attempt to speak for anyone/everyone else. Its not what I see every day, so there ya' go.
Apparently you're in the minority.

[Katy Watts]

I'm not optimistic that it will ever change as long as horse owners don't demand it.


I'm afraid that won't happen until such time as we have enough farriers to pick and choose. People here call me and ask if I know 'anybody decent' that will take on new clients and I have no one to recommend. They are forced to continue to use farriers they know are substandard. Those of us who have horses with foot pathology have already had every local farrier make our horses worse. Those who own horses who are not yet unsound make due until real pathology presents, even though some can see it coming.
Katy

[Lookout]

That's how occupational licensing is done in this country. Stuff of that nature is handled at the state level.
George

When there is an accredited institution of learning from which the testee successfully graduated. I seriously doubt you'll ever see that in farriery. It's not an 'unfortunate oversight' in our law, it's a completely different cultural approach. The British system is based on the Medieval system of guilds, a closed system. It's one of the reasons the US is considered the land of opportunity.
Another difference is the distances people have to travel in the US whereas in the UK everything is more concentrated geographically. Out in Nowheresville USA you are lucky to have any farrier within 100 miles.

[grayarabs]

wRed: You are correct in asking for opinions. There are many problems with the hooves.
To name a few - they are too long, appear flared, underrun etc.
See if the photos from this thread will show up:
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=133360&page=4
Should show problems hooves and correct hooves.
In addition to websites C. recommended - also try:
www.equinextion.com
Do your research - look at healthy hooves - compare to yours.
I will say it - to fix those hooves - your horse should be barefoot - to be able to trim/rasp more often than six weeks - or you are chasing your tail. Heels that are running forward need to be trimmed often - ie down and back - you need to stay ahead of the 6-week growth - also toes need to be backed up - walls lowered etc. Sole shots?
Good luck - keep updated.

[grayarabs]

Need to add: previous post with COTH URL - photos in post 63.

[JHUshoer20]

I'm afraid that won't happen until such time as we have enough farriers to pick and choose. People here call me and ask if I know 'anybody decent' that will take on new clients and I have no one to recommend. They are forced to continue to use farriers they know are substandard. Those of us who have horses with foot pathology have already had every local farrier make our horses worse. Those who own horses who are not yet unsound make due until real pathology presents, even though some can see it coming.
Katy
Katy,
Think of it this way then. You claim there is a shortage of good horseshoers in your area. That seems to be a common belief amongst owners and is largely a myth but for sake of argument lets assume what you say is true.

A licensing law gets passed in your state. Suddenly a few drop by the wayside what now? The best rise to the top and have more than they can handle therefore it makes opportunities for apprentices. Good horseshoers overseeing good apprentices and journeymen providing good service. If apprenticeships were required as they are in the UK then by the time an individual went off on their own they'd be extremely good.

There would be no room for the drunks and the bums who embarrass us all. They'd have to meed a standard, get good or get out. Owners would no longer have to "put up" with anything.

Instead of that we have schools dumping out another batch every friday for the last 30 years. It has created huge turnover in the trade to the point that the average shoer out there now has been in the trade 5 years or less.

I'll tell you right now that it will never change without owners making it happen though. Horseshoers agree about nothing. Least of all that.
George

[JHUshoer20]

When there is an accredited institution of learning from which the testee successfully graduated. I seriously doubt you'll ever see that in farriery. I doubt it too It's not an 'unfortunate oversight' in our law, it's a completely different cultural approach. The British system is based on the Medieval system of guilds, a closed system. It's one of the reasons the US is considered the land of opportunity. And a much better system. We had guilds here as well but most were destroyed by patent law and corporations. One that has survived is the Bar associations of the various states. You'll never see that dismantled though. Land of Opportunity is relative. Every country I've ever been in said that. Is largely propagandistic.

Another difference is the distances people have to travel in the US whereas in the UK everything is more concentrated geographically. Out in Nowheresville USA you are lucky to have any farrier within 100 miles.
Is not insurmountable. Expenses are about the same with their more expensive fuel and such. For this reason many of them work out of shops as will probably grow in popularity here as well.
George

[deltawave]

I'd have to agree that there is a shortage of GOOD horseshoers in my area, too. Not a shortage of horseshoers. GOOD ones are hard to find, they don't advertise, they are very busy, and if you live out in the sticks, it's difficult to find one that has the time to drive hither and yon to do one or two horses. Finding a good farrier appears to be (I've lived and kept horses in five entirely different areas of the country) primarily a "word of mouth" undertaking.

I think the idea of a "guild" is a good one, but it's hard to start from nowhere and get to a meaningful organization. Any graduate of a six-week course can call himself/herself a "farrier" but which organization is the one that certifies the GOOD ones? There are like a dozen different organizations--which one is the "real" one? Is the AFA certification exam a good marker for a competent farrier? I've had horses for 25+ years and don't have the first clue. I guess I'm guilty of not digging deeper myself, but via the "word of mouth" method I've been fortunate to be able to always find good farriers. But they are NOT on every street corner. I pay extra for mine to drive an hour to my place to shoe 1 horse and trim 2. GLADLY.

Just thinking out loud here--what do you farriers consider the best source for finding a good and competent professional?

[grayarabs]

What does it mean when you look at a farrier's business card - with all the following letters - ie AFA etc and their name is not listed on the respective sites online?
How often are farriers tested? And by whom? Ever de-listed? De-licensed?

[JHUshoer20]

In my opinion the best is on my signature line, but then again I'm somewhat prejudiced.

The AFA certification is good. I would say anybody who passed muster with that should be able to handle anything you present him with. The Guild of Professional Farriers is a good one too. The BWFA grandfathered a good number in for a while but their test is good provided the individual actually took the test. Some states have certifications as well. I wouldn't respect or trust anything from a horseshoeing school.

Licensing is a better way to go because it would ensure that everybody met a standard before they were allowed to be turned loose on the public. Since we have no such thing certification is the best runner up right now so you should really not consider anybody without some kind of a credential.
Interestingly enough we're arguing this very thing right now over on the other website.
George

[grayarabpony]

What's really scary is the LT/LH syndrome is becoming so common place I worry that it has become the new standard for 'normal'.
Katy


Boy isn't that the truth. :no: I finally got a farrier who has made my horse happy, but SO many farriers seem to be trimming for LT/ LH, and it's so bad for the horse.

[JHUshoer20]

What does it mean when you look at a farrier's business card - with all the following letters - ie AFA etc and their name is not listed on the respective sites online?
How often are farriers tested? And by whom? Ever de-listed? De-licensed?
If their not on the website it means they were dropped off of it for letting their membership lapse. If you call their office they can tell you if their certification is true or not. There are records kept I do believe.

[Katy Watts]

The best rise to the top and have more than they can handle therefore it makes opportunities for apprentices.

George,
We are there now. Lots of opportunities. No apprentices coming out of the woodwork around here.
Katy

[JHUshoer20]

I think the idea of a "guild" is a good one, but it's hard to start from nowhere and get to a meaningful organization. Any graduate of a six-week course can call himself/herself a "farrier"

Just to focus on this for a second, some schools are good and some merely prostitute the trade. Good horseshoers can come from either source depending on themselves and their own drive and motivation. You get out of it what you put into it and can sometimes do ok in spite of a place more than because of it.

Point being though that at least those who go to school are trying to do right. Some just want to drink and party but most want to practice and learn.

Problem is that no school is necessary. All that's necessary is to wake up one day and start calling yourself one. This is what you should all find unnacceptable. It is not in the best interests of your horses.
George

[deltawave]

You get out of it what you put into it and can sometimes do ok in spite of a place more than because of it.

I very firmly believe that this is true of ANY education.

This is an advertising blurb from one of these farrier schools:

We have educated everyone from rodeo cowboys, high school drop-outs, police officers, auto mechanics, computer techs, aeronautical engineers, school teachers, anyone who is tired of working for someone else".

Does that strike anyone else as slightly scary? Where is the part about HORSES?

[JHUshoer20]

This is an advertising blurb from one of these farrier schools:

Does that strike anyone else as slightly scary? Where is the part about HORSES?

Good question Delta. Most aggravating thing is that whenever the issue of licensing comes up it's always school owners who spearhead the efforts against it. Clearly many of them aren't in the business of educating and their refusal to be held to a measurable standard tends to exascerbate the problem.

Seems in addition to anybody who wants to get in the business being able to that also seems to go for opening a school as well.
George

[2 tbs]

OMG! The last page has been ridiculously civil! :lol: ;) Sorry, I couldn't help myself.:D

To the point-everything that's being said on this last page is good stuff. I too agree it's hard to find a good farrier and even beyond that, some horse owners can't afford to pay the good one to drive 100 miles to their farm.:( I happen to have 2 farriers that work on my horses (one for each horse). I have a retried horse that is doing very well with his barefoot trim and I have a hunter that my trimmer was having issues with so I went with one my trainer suggested. My horse has come leaps and bounds over the last 6 months. He's still a work in progress but he's getting there.

However, if I can back up to the first page and a half or so of this thread and reference every other thread out there about feet...this is also a place where we can help the things being talked about on page 3. If we, the average horse owner, can band together here, ask questions and learn then maybe we can start helping to weed out the less than acceptable farriers out there. It won't happen over night but we have to start somewhere!

Another thing I'd like to throw out there from the learning perspective is instead of immediately assuming all things bad, why not assist in the owners education by asking questions? If you ask about the environment the horse lives, the before photos, conformation pix etc you are inadvertently helping the horse owner evaluate for themselves. If I knew nothing at all but someone asked me those questions I'd suddenly realize that I need to take those factors into consideration. Please keep in mind that you, JHUshoer20, can be the 1st step in helping the average horse owner learn what all goes into the evaluation of foot work and your efforts would have a greater pay off if you helped instead of hindered by throwing a temper tantrum.:yes:

Truthfully, if I had all the time in the world to know all the little in's and out's of shoeing and trimming I'd just go to school and learn it then go be my own farrier. However, I don't have that much time, I don't have the money, and I have to trust in the professionals I pay to perform the service. There is nothing wrong with coming here as well and picking up tidibts of info provided by the brainstorming that occurs and by reading through websites such as those posted by Irishcas. All pieces of info are good-even if that info is bad. I'm also pretty sure most people come to a bb knowing full well the info here needs taken with a grain of salt.

[caballus]

I don't have the money, and I have to trust in the professionals I pay to perform the service. Don't expect everyone to start trimming and shoeing their own horses but horseowners have the RESPONSIBILITY to KNOW what constitutes a balanced, healthy hoof. <edited>

[Thomas_1]

The British system is based on the Medieval system of guilds, a closed system. Well actually its based on a system of accredited learning to European standards. And be clear that even when it was established as a Fellowship in 1356 that it was to oversee standards.

The Guilds protected alike customers, employers, and employees by searching out inferior work and punishing offenders; ancient Companies had severe penalties for those who broke the rules.

The Farriers were, as always, trying to control the quality of the work done and to punish those who did not do it sufficiently well or who overcharged "...and the Farriers chose Richard de Westminster and John Beverle, farriers, to govern their trade and to present defaults to the Mayor and Aldermen, and they were sworn accordingly".

The First Charter reads

Whereas we have been informed by ... the humble petition of our wellbeloved subjects the Brotherhood of Farryers within our Citties of London and Westminster that their art and trade is of great antiquity and of great use and benefitt to our subjects for preserving of horses and that diverse unexpert and unskilfull persons ... within the said citties ... have for want of due knowledge and skill in the right way of preserving of horses destroyed many horses in or near the same citties ... and that the said Brotherhood have not power to search and oversee such as profess the said art ... soe that the said abuses doe dayly increase ... and to invest them with power and jurisdiction for the well ordering and governing of the said Art and Trade and all such as use the same.

Now know yee that wee considering of what advantage the preservation of horses is to this our Kingdome and being willing to prevent the dayly destruction of horses both by provideing against the said abuses and by increasing the number of skilfull and expert Farryers in and about our said Citties ... doe declare and grant that our well-beloved subjects Gregory Costen (the first Master) ... Andrew Snape our Serjeant Farryer ... and all others that professe the said Trade. . . and have used the same by the space of three years within our said Citties and the suburbs and liberties thereof and within seaven miles distant ... and all others that shall hereafter exercise the same and shall have served as apprentices. . . by the space of seaven yeares at the least shall be from henceforth one Body Politique and Corporate by the name of Master, Wardens, Assistants, and Commonalty of the Company of Farryers of London ... and they shall have succession for ever.


It's one of the reasons the US is considered the land of opportunity.Ah so its the old American myth and cultural stereotype that that only America is the land of opportunity. That regulation of standards and improvement in formal accredited education and increased law relating to animal welfare means that you have the end of democrocy and free market economy. Phooey!

Do you honestly think that trainers and owners are so damned stupid that they'd put up with that? Don't bother answering its just a rhetorical question.

Another difference is the distances people have to travel in the US whereas in the UK everything is more concentrated geographically. Out in Nowheresville USA you are lucky to have any farrier within 100 miles. So because there's distance doesn't really matter if some self trained butcher hacks away at the horses feet?!

I tell you what given a choice I'd rather put my trust in someone that has had asystem of training extending to just over 4 years and with apprenticeship with a competent trainer, than go to some self proclaimed farrier or trimmer in the USA who's been to a school for 2 weeks, 3 months, 4 days, 1 year, read a book, researched on the internet (so tell me precisely what is it there?) or who just rode round with someone who did similar and whose ability has never actually been accredited.

Do you honestly think the general public in the UK are so gullible that they're happy and content to give taxes to a formal education system that produces mediocrity or just seeks to protect farriers? Another rhetorical one

Heck I wonder how for a piddling little island with a pathetically small population and a feeble number of horses we do so disproportionately well in international competition. It really makes me wonder how they all whoop the asses off all those horses and riders and drivers in countries where there's no legislation and regulation and all that freedom of choice and especially when the British horses are all shod by licenced and regulated farriers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Those sort of ridiculous arguments about it is in the UK where there's extensive programme of accredited standard education smacks to me of change resistence and distraction.

Its typical on the change resistence learning curve:

Starts with denial, goes to fear, then to pushing back with distraction, diversion and positive resistence.... but that train is still heading down the track and the requirement to change is still there. Some will get on it and some will be flattened by it because they thought they'd stop it coming.

I wonder how many guys and gals on this forum that trim and/or shoe horses would qualitfy and get onto first base on the UK Farriery Registration system.

Please note that all farriers in the USA who are CJF's are considered qualified and eligibile for registration under the British system.

[JHUshoer20]

OMG! The last page has been ridiculously civil! :lol: ;) Sorry, I couldn't help myself.:D

To the point-everything that's being said on this last page is good stuff. I too agree it's hard to find a good farrier and even beyond that, some horse owners can't afford to pay the good one to drive 100 miles to their farm.:( I happen to have 2 farriers that work on my horses (one for each horse) Case in point. It is a myth that there is any such shortage. In your barn you have one for every horse. Years ago was not the case. We did all of them on the place or we did none of them. The ones who can't pay for it can't pay for it. Better horseshoers tend to go where the money is like any other business. Thus, those who live that far from town might have problems in that regard.

However, if I can back up to the first page and a half or so of this thread and reference every other thread out there about feet...this is also a place where we can help the things being talked about on page 3. If we, the average horse owner, can band together here, ask questions and learn then maybe we can start helping to weed out the less than acceptable farriers out there. It won't happen over night but we have to start somewhere!
You'll weed them out by working for licensing, not by trashing horseshoers on the internet.

Please keep in mind that you, JHUshoer20, can be the 1st step in helping the average horse owner learn what all goes into the evaluation of foot work and your efforts would have a greater pay off if you helped instead of hindered by throwing a temper tantrum.:yes:
Hearing the same predictable responses does get tiresome. It's gotten so I know what they'll say before they say it and is not just barefooters either. Plenty of horseshoers I fight with about these things as well.

I'm also pretty sure most people come to a bb knowing full well the info here needs taken with a grain of salt.
We can only hope so
George

[Auventera Two]

Does that strike anyone else as slightly scary? Where is the part about HORSES?

Absolutely. It ranks right up there with the comment I read in a AF Journal: something to the effect of - I got into horse shoeing because I wanted to be my own boss. Got tired of people telling me what to do.

:confused:

I used to be scared of farriers, but since subscribing to the AFJ, I'm downright TERRIFIED that some of these yahoos are getting under our horses.

The handfull of farriers that post on these boards need to keep real strong sight of the fact that MOST farriers are NOT milling around the internet everyday. Nobody knows their names except their clients. Many of them suck. Many of them are Amish charging 10 bucks a trim. Many of them have no education. Many of them work full time jobs and shoe/trim on the side. It's really hard to find a GOOD farrier. The really GOOD ones are educated, they study, they probably post on these forums, they go to symposiums and the Hoof Summit. They continue their education. But sadly, the farriers that most of us are in contact with every day do not come anywhere near meeting these qualifications.

[JHUshoer20]

Well actually its based on a system of accredited learning to European standards. And be clear that even when it was established as a Fellowship in 1356 that it was to oversee standards.

The Guilds protected alike customers, employers, and employees by searching out inferior work and punishing offenders; ancient Companies had severe penalties for those who broke the rules.

The Farriers were, as always, trying to control the quality of the work done and to punish those who did not do it sufficiently well or who overcharged "...and the Farriers chose Richard de Westminster and John Beverle, farriers, to govern their trade and to present defaults to the Mayor and Aldermen, and they were sworn accordingly".

The First Charter reads

Whereas we have been informed by ... the humble petition of our wellbeloved subjects the Brotherhood of Farryers within our Citties of London and Westminster that their art and trade is of great antiquity and of great use and benefitt to our subjects for preserving of horses and that diverse unexpert and unskilfull persons ... within the said citties ... have for want of due knowledge and skill in the right way of preserving of horses destroyed many horses in or near the same citties ... and that the said Brotherhood have not power to search and oversee such as profess the said art ... soe that the said abuses doe dayly increase ... and to invest them with power and jurisdiction for the well ordering and governing of the said Art and Trade and all such as use the same.

Now know yee that wee considering of what advantage the preservation of horses is to this our Kingdome and being willing to prevent the dayly destruction of horses both by provideing against the said abuses and by increasing the number of skilfull and expert Farryers in and about our said Citties ... doe declare and grant that our well-beloved subjects Gregory Costen (the first Master) ... Andrew Snape our Serjeant Farryer ... and all others that professe the said Trade. . . and have used the same by the space of three years within our said Citties and the suburbs and liberties thereof and within seaven miles distant ... and all others that shall hereafter exercise the same and shall have served as apprentices. . . by the space of seaven yeares at the least shall be from henceforth one Body Politique and Corporate by the name of Master, Wardens, Assistants, and Commonalty of the Company of Farryers of London ... and they shall have succession for ever.


Ah so its the old American myth and cultural stereotype that that only America is the land of opportunity. That regulation of standards and improvement in formal accredited education and increased law relating to animal welfare means that you have the end of democrocy and free market economy. Phooey!

Do you honestly think that trainers and owners are so damned stupid that they'd put up with that? Don't bother answering its just a rhetorical question.

So because there's distance doesn't really matter if some self trained butcher hacks away at the horses feet?!

I tell you what given a choice I'd rather put my trust in someone that has had asystem of training extending to just over 4 years and with apprenticeship with a competent trainer, than go to some self proclaimed farrier or trimmer in the USA who's been to a school for 2 weeks, 3 months, 4 days, 1 year, read a book, researched on the internet (so tell me precisely what is it there?) or who just rode round with someone who did similar and whose ability has never actually been accredited.

Do you honestly think the general public in the UK are so gullible that they're happy and content to give taxes to a formal education system that produces mediocrity or just seeks to protect farriers? Another rhetorical one

Heck I wonder how for a piddling little island with a pathetically small population and a feeble number of horses we do so disproportionately well in international competition. It really makes me wonder how they all whoop the asses off all those horses and riders and drivers in countries where there's no legislation and regulation and all that freedom of choice and especially when the British horses are all shod by licenced and regulated farriers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Those sort of ridiculous arguments about it is in the UK where there's extensive programme of accredited standard education smacks to me of change resistence and distraction.

Its typical on the change resistence learning curve:

Starts with denial, goes to fear, then to pushing back with distraction, diversion and positive resistence.... but that train is still heading down the track and the requirement to change is still there. Some will get on it and some will be flattened by it because they thought they'd stop it coming.

I wonder how many guys and gals on this forum that trim and/or shoe horses would qualitfy and get onto first base on the UK Farriery Registration system.

Please note that all farriers in the USA who are CJF's are considered qualified and eligibile for registration under the British system.
Thomas! My fine British friend:)
That is without a doubt the best thing I've ever seen written on this website:yes:
Thank you buddy
George

[Thomas_1]

However, if I can back up to If we, the average horse owner, can band together here, ask questions and learn then maybe we can start helping to weed out the less than acceptable farriers out there. It won't happen over night but we have to start somewhere! There'll always be a market for cheap low skilled work. As evidenced by what is frequently seen in real life and on Bulletin Boards there's a heck of a lot of folks own horses that haven't got a clue or have a very low base knowledge.

Formal accredited training and licencing is the thing that will weed out the self taught who have minimal or no real knowledge. If there's only licenced farriers on the market, it protects horses from acts of ignorance and negligence and means they're not quite so reliant on waiting for their owner to ask questions and learn on a Bulletin Board!

Another thing I'd like to throw out there from the learning perspective is instead of immediately assuming all things bad, why not assist in the owners education by asking questions? I've personally never yet met a farrier who didn't take time, trouble and effort to educate the ignorant. But I entirely understand how they get terribly impatient when they're met with the stupid and the darnright rude and expected to contribute their knowledge for free.

If you ask about the environment the horse lives, the before photos, conformation pix etc you are inadvertently helping the horse owner evaluate for themselves. Nice idea but sadly too many don't have the capacity to know what is good, bad or indifferent. That's why horses are kept in inadequate conditions, with poor diets, little exercise etc etc etc etc.

If I knew nothing at all but someone asked me those questions I'd suddenly realize that I need to take those factors into consideration. And my experience is that often when you ask someone those questions on a Bulletin Board that they get all huffy and throw their dummy out of the pram and start making a mass of excuses about why their horse can't be kept well and have what it needs - rather than what the owner can afford or has time for!

Please keep in mind that you, JHUshoer20, can be the 1st step in helping the average horse owner learn what all goes into the evaluation of foot work and your efforts would have a greater pay off if you helped instead of hindered by throwing a temper tantrum.:yes: Perhaps you should visit the Farriers Forum, Horseshoes.com. There you'll see a mass of professional farriers freely giving their advice and their time to assist horse owners.

There is nothing wrong with coming here as well and picking up tidibts of info provided by the brainstorming that occurs and by reading through websites such as those posted by Irishcas. You think? The trouble is you can't half read some rubbish on the internet. If you don't have the basic knowledge to be able to discriminate between what is bovine excrement and myth, then you may end up believing all sorts of nonsense.

All pieces of info are good-even if that info is bad. If there's a logic there, then its lost on me!

I'm also pretty sure most people come to a bb knowing full well the info here needs taken with a grain of salt. I would hope so but I doubt it. Heck some people actually quote Wilkepedia as though its fact!

[Thomas_1]

The handfull of farriers that post on these boards need to keep real strong sight of the fact that MOST farriers are NOT milling around the internet everyday. Nobody knows their names except their clients. Many of them suck. Many of them are Amish charging 10 bucks a trim. Many of them have no education. Many of them work full time jobs and shoe/trim on the side. It's really hard to find a GOOD farrier. The really GOOD ones are educated, they study, they probably post on these forums, they go to symposiums and the Hoof Summit. They continue their education. But sadly, the farriers that most of us are in contact with every day do not come anywhere near meeting these qualifications. And some call themselves Equine Podiatrists and pretend they have degrees when really they just bought one off the internet :winkgrin::yes:

Since when were you qualified or competent to judge the quality of a farrier's work. And personally speaking I find your stereotype about those from the Amish community to be prejudicial and offensive.

[wildREDhorse]

Boy did I miss a lot while I was out today... Umm... I can't remember all the questions at this point as there was so much else discussed... I do have some previous pics, but only one view from each hoof.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii14/wildREDhorse/DSC00671.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii14/wildREDhorse/DSC00672.jpg

The horse was in #4.5 Farrier's Pride pad and Equipak - per vets order for about 3 shoeing cyles after our issues last summer. These pictures are from December a week before she stopped wearing the pads. So if my memory serves correctly, these were taken at 4 weeks.

I didn't have a chance to take a picture of the underside of her hoof today. :( Sorry... I will tomorrow for sure.

Horse does dressage and jumping.

[rcloisonne]

This looks like a fairly typical shoe job to me, what you see every day.
Agreed. And for those who believe things are so much more hunky dory in the UK with their guilds and such, here ya go :lol::

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5999

[Thomas_1]

Agreed. And for those who believe things are so much more hunky dory in the UK with their guilds and such, here ya go :lol::
How stupid! The work there is neither typical and you've taken it totally out of context.

Also you'll see if you take the trouble to read it in entirity that you can't regulate for the ignorance of the owner. Read posts 20, 23 & 27 you'll see that I was actually in private correspondence with her and yet she chose to do absolutely nothing!

Do what you always do and you get what you always got!

Futhermore the difference is that in the UK IF there's bad work it can be reported to a licencing body and the farrier faces disciplinary action, a fine and even delicencing and loss of his job.

They will also, if there's been an act which causes unnecessary suffering, pick up the cost of prosecution on behalf of the owner.

Sadly though owners can be just the same in the UK as they all too often are in the USA

[Daydream Believer]

And some call themselves Equine Podiatrists and pretend they have degrees when really they just bought one off the internet :winkgrin::yes:

Since when were you qualified or competent to judge the quality of a farrier's work. And personally speaking I find your stereotype about those from the Amish community to be prejudicial and offensive.

That hardly seems called for...how rude. :no: How are you qualified to judge her?

[Lookout]

Thomas you are definitely a master of putting words in someone's mouth and then arguing those points.

Well actually its based on a system of accredited learning to European standards. And be clear that even when it was established as a Fellowship in 1356 that it was to oversee standards.


IOW - a guild. The guild is there to protect the farriers as much as the customer.



Ah so its the old American myth and cultural stereotype that that only America is the land of opportunity. That regulation of standards and improvement in formal accredited education and increased law relating to animal welfare means that you have the end of democrocy and free market economy. Phooey!
The 'myth' is propagated by the immigrants who are here and those clamoring to get in. They are much more aware of it than native born Americans who take their rights and opportunities for granted.

Do you honestly think that trainers and owners are so damned stupid that they'd put up with that? Don't bother answering its just a rhetorical question.

Huh? :confused:

So because there's distance doesn't really matter if some self trained butcher hacks away at the horses feet?!
No it does not mean that. It means that there is no one available.

Heck I wonder how for a piddling little island with a pathetically small population and a feeble number of horses we do so disproportionately well in international competition. It really makes me wonder how they all whoop the asses off all those horses and riders and drivers in countries where there's no legislation and regulation and all that freedom of choice and especially when the British horses are all shod by licenced and regulated farriers.
It has nothing to do with legislation and regulations. Again, a large part of is the geographical distance. The 'piddling little island' works in your favor. Just like all the top notch riders that come from NZ. Talk to the up and coming event rider that has to haul 5 hours each way to get a lesson with a trainer. Or to find a decent cross country course to train on. Or can go to one event a month (if that) because they live in Idaho and the nearest event is a 12 hour haul. And that's the only one they have near them. Or have to haul 3000 miles across the country for a major competition like Young Rider's. Or have to quit their job to go spend the winter in Florida. Or has to haul somewhere just to find a galloping track to condition on. Compare that to the average British rider who has a CHOICE of events every weekend to go to that are no more than an hour away. Add to that the appropriateness of the terrain to riding/conditioning/schooling, and the weather, which makes winter a loss of 4 months of schooling time in much of the US. Look at the turf in the background in that post that rcloisonne posted! This is exactly analogous to not having any farriers within a 2 hour radius to choose from.

[Lookout]

How stupid!
How rude!

Also you'll see if you take the trouble to read it in entirity that you can't regulate for the ignorance of the owner. Read posts 20, 23 & 27 you'll see that I was actually in private correspondence with her and yet she chose to do absolutely nothing!

So it was the owner that drilled those grooves into the hoof wall?

[2 tbs]

If there's a logic there, then its lost on me!


:lol::lol:

There is logic I assure you :D

Basically I'm saying that sometimes we get good info and sometimes we get bad info. If we can go the extra step to translate each piece of info and figure out which is good and bad then we have inadvertently educated ourselves even more because now we know what is good info and what is bad. In the end even the bad info led to something good.:)

[sublimequine]

I think we need to have a new rule on COTH; the word "hoof" should be banned altogether, cause folks just can't handle any thread on feet without going at each other's throats. SHEESH! :eek:

This lady was just looking for some input and advice for her horse, and ya'll have turned it into a poo-slinging match. Shame on you. :no:

[wildREDhorse]

I think we need to have a new rule on COTH; the word "hoof" should be banned altogether, cause folks just can't handle any thread on feet without going at each other's throats. SHEESH! :eek:

This lady was just looking for some input and advice for her horse, and ya'll have turned it into a poo-slinging match. Shame on you. :no:

Lol, I was JUST thinking, hmm... my question has gotten lost. :lol: What ARE we talking about?

From what I read this morning I already feel slighty more educated. Watched a bunch of horses and hooves at the horse show today. Who knows if what I was noting was actual or not. :)

[2 tbs]

Perhaps you should visit the Farriers Forum, Horseshoes.com. There you'll see a mass of professional farriers freely giving their advice and their time to assist horse owners.

Now see-THAT is useful info!!!

I'll repeat myself, for those farriers that post here and are obviously annoyed by those they feel are less educated on their profession (not arguing the point, just stating the obvious), why don't you direct posters to a site like horsehoes.com as a better place to get an answer to the questions they are asking??

I fully understand hating to say the same thing over and over again and having that info falling on seeminly deaf ears. We all get tired of it and on a bb where people come from far and wide you are likely to have to answer the same thing a million times. By simply suggesting a better place for a specific answer then again, you potentially help someone learn and hopefully put them in touch with more qualified answers.

Just a thought...

[Rick Burten]

Once again we see nothing of this nature posted by any of our British friends.
Depends on where you are looking/viewing.
State licensing is the answer people!:yes:
George
Perhaps, but what a boondoggle. Personally, I'm not in favor of licensing, especially if the requirements are drawn up by your typical bureaucrat. And if we are going to license farriers, then we damn well better license any/all hoofcare providers. Think the customers are going to be willing to pay for all that?

For one man's views on the subject, go here: http://web.cetlink.net/~farrier/liscen.htm

[sublimequine]

Lol, I was JUST thinking, hmm... my question has gotten lost. :lol: What ARE we talking about?

From what I read this morning I already feel slighty more educated. Watched a bunch of horses and hooves at the horse show today. Who knows if what I was noting was actual or not. :)

Isn't it interesting to watch hooves? :lol: I was doing that at the barn today while turning horses out, lookin at hooves. I think you can learn something just from observing sometimes. :D

Sorry your thread has gotten completely off-course. They're now talking about licensing... since that has ANYTHING to do with your original question. :eek:

[JHUshoer20]

Depends on where you are looking/viewing.

Perhaps, but what a boondoggle. Personally, I'm not in favor of licensing, especially if the requirements are drawn up by your typical bureaucrat. And if we are going to license farriers, then we damn well better license any/all hoofcare providers. Think the customers are going to be willing to pay for all that?

For one man's views on the subject, go here: http://web.cetlink.net/~farrier/liscen.htm
One man's views is right. I'll stand with Thomas on this one
George

[Rick Burten]

First it will make the whole foot when looking from underneath appear longer: the distance from edge of toe to end of heels will increase and it will become more obvious how very long the toe really is, by many of the guidelines to determine length.
If that is not already apparent, then the observer is not going to be much helped looking at the bottom of the foot.
For whatever reason this awkward dubbing seems to be the way farriers shorten toes,
There you go again, making generalizations that you cannot substantiate.
I don't know why it is. When my horse had high/low feet the extremely high heeled foot was dubbed very short in accordance with the vet's instruction that that toe must be shortened.
So who is a fault here? The veterinarian or the farrier? Did you ask the vet why the toe had to be so shortened? What was the recommendation for the heel trim?
But the foot with the underrun heels actually had the really long toe and was not dubbed.
Was the toe really long or was it just run forward giving the appearance of a long toe? What did the radiographs show with regard to sole depth?
It was horribly unbalanced looking. Not until the heels were lowered and brought back was the toe able to be shortened properly.
Guaranteed that I could have shortened that toe without trimming the heels back. I wouldn't do it, but its a lead pipe cinch I could. And, I could do it without necessarily trimming from the bottom/sole side of the hoof. It wouldn't accomplish much, but I could do it. :)
Apparently you're in the minority.
Only if one accepts your observations as demonstrable fact.

[Daydream Believer]

This lady was just looking for some input and advice for her horse, and ya'll have turned it into a poo-slinging match. Shame on you. :no:

Yes, and funny how it's the same people who make these discussions ugly time after time isn't it?

[Rick Burten]

I will say it - to fix those hooves - your horse should be barefoot - to be able to trim/rasp more often than six weeks - or you are chasing your tail.
Demonstrably incorrect. Barefoot is but one way, and not always the best way, to approach the problem.
Heels that are running forward need to be trimmed often - ie down and back - you need to stay ahead of the 6-week growth - also toes need to be backed up - walls lowered etc.

You have again either forgotten or overlooked the overarching tenent of hoofcare,if not equine management in general. "IT DEPENDS"

[sublimequine]

Yes, and funny how it's the same people who make these discussions ugly time after time isn't it?

Agreed. You'd think they'd get bored of it or something. :lol:

[Rick Burten]

What does it mean when you look at a farrier's business card - with all the following letters - ie AFA etc and their name is not listed on the respective sites online?
It means that they are a member not in good standing because their dues for the current year have not been paid.
How often are farriers tested?
Other than perhaps at some parimutual avenues, there is no requirement for farriers to be tested. Exception: to maintain one's current status as an CNBBFT/CNBF, one must re-test/certify every two years.
And by whom?
By the parimutual venue or, voluntarily, by one of the national farrier associations and also now, by the ELPO group for accreditation as an NB trimmer/farrier.
Ever de-listed?
Depending on the sanctioning body, yes.
De-licensed?
Since there is no licensing requirement save perhaps on some parimutual venues, in the United States,, farriers are not licensed, thus they cannot be "de-licensed". At the parimutual venues, it is a different story, and I think George is much better qualified to address that subject than I.

[wildREDhorse]

AT LEAST there were a few helpful posters, that guided me, gave me a few opinions of what I need to focus my research on, and more helping me privately. That is fabulous. I already feel my hoof intelligence rising.

At least there is some knowlege being passed around via the boards. Yay! Please PM me if you have more constructive info to add, I think it's all getting lost in this thread now.

As for the rest "Well bless their hearts" <3 ;)

[JB]

If there's only licenced farriers on the market, it protects horses from acts of ignorance and negligence and means they're not quite so reliant on waiting for their owner to ask questions and learn on a Bulletin Board!
Veterinarians are licensed, but it doesn't stop them from doing really stupid, things out of either ignorance of lack of caring.

I've personally never yet met a farrier who didn't take time, trouble and effort to educate the ignorant.
Just because you haven't doesn't mean they aren't out there.

And my experience is that often when you ask someone those questions on a Bulletin Board that they get all huffy and throw their dummy out of the pram and start making a mass of excuses about why their horse can't be kept well and have what it needs - rather than what the owner can afford or has time for!
Perhaps that's because some people jump down their throats for not providing the optimum environment for a horse. Yes, there will be the Huffers who ask one question and expect one and only one answer directly related to their only question, but I daresay that the vast majority of people posting threads like this would have no problem divulging the horse's management practices, to the best of their knowledge, if the question is posed in a friendly manner, stating that the information would be helpful in answering the question.

Perhaps you should visit the Farriers Forum, Horseshoes.com. There you'll see a mass of professional farriers freely giving their advice and their time to assist horse owners.
Or REALLY getting nasty with an owner because they don't know the answers to questions posed to them, or who choose to have a horse even though there is no turnout, period.


As for the rest "Well bless their hearts" <3
*snort* :lol:

[wildREDhorse]

People are now ignorant/incompetent because they have upper level education in things other than horse shoeing? Uh Oh! :uhoh:

And btw, I don't think I've made any excuses.

[feetfirst]

WRH, Where are you located? I would be happy to come and look at your horse, meet with your farrier, offer suggestions in a non-adversarial way, and be willing to help execute changes for the betterment of the horse, owner and farrier, (in my estimate), how's that for an answer?
Yesterday I spent an extra hour at a new barn just going over my cut away diagram of the hoof and answering questions. I had a horseowner ask me to shoe her horse and I referred her to someone else that does TWHs much better than me. It's not about anything but what's best for the horse!
What I want to convey is that most farriers that I know care so much about the horse and the owner that it warms my heart. We go out of our way to provide the best care that we are capable of, and take pride in a job well done. It's sad that some people's experience is not the same as mine, but like most things in life, it depends.

[wildREDhorse]

feetfirst - In the past, my farrier has jumped on top of anything specific I have asked them to do. So not sure why these issues are going on. Maybe I'm just clueless. We're only a couple states away. :lol: Not sure I can afford a plane ticket right now though... I graduate in May. :) Uh oh, I just made an excuse. ;)

[feetfirst]

Anytime you want a vacation is Sunny Southern Calif, you are welcome here!
I'll take you around with me and teach you to do your own trims, and I can cook.

[JHUshoer20]

Futhermore the difference is that in the UK IF there's bad work it can be reported to a licencing body and the farrier faces disciplinary action, a fine and even delicencing and loss of his job.

They will also, if there's been an act which causes unnecessary suffering, pick up the cost of prosecution on behalf of the owner.

I think this is also an important point. They are pretty enthusiastic about this over there according to stuff I've seen on the wcf website.

And yes racetrack horseshoers can be ruled off temporarily or permanently for any number of things. Keeping ones license and reputation good is a pretty high priority in that environment.
George

[Pippigirl]

There's not really a bullnose. The toes are long and the farrier is trying to shorten them by dubbing them back. The shoes are very forward on the heel, if they were moved back (the base of support as Katy said) the toes would be able to be shortened more correctly.

This looks like a fairly typical shoe job to me, what you see every day.

This seems to be common in my area.

[JB]

Futhermore the difference is that in the UK IF there's bad work it can be reported to a licencing body and the farrier faces disciplinary action, a fine and even delicencing and loss of his job.

Who is reporting the bad work? The owner? Trainer? Vet? Another farrier? This assumes the owner/trainer/vet knows how to identify bad work, which is the very problem we're having here. The biggest reason many farriers here are still in business is that none of their clients can see that they are doing a poor job.

The US could have a self-regulating profession here if the owners/vets/trainers had enough understanding to see when things were at least more than just a little wrong. But, they don't, and that's a problem.

[Auventera Two]

Some of the most horrifying hack jobs I've ever seen came out of the UK with Cytek farriers/shoeing. :eek: A girl I was in class with trims full time and a lot of her clients are ex Cytek people. You wouldn't believe the shoeing jobs. It's like Natural Balance on crack. Toes chopped off right back to the pedal bone, totally square. Horses that couldn't walk due to the pressure on the pedal bone. Pedal osteitis and pressure necrosis. Muscle atrophy from horses so painful they couldn't move. You want to see a sweet, cute little 98 pound trimmer turn into a raging maniac ready to scratch out somebody's eyes? Mention Cytek. Wowweee. Sure, it might help some horses, but the shoeing and trimming is so radical that a lot of horses just don't respond well to it at all. And THOSE horses are the ones left in pain needing help.

http://www.cytekhorse.com.au/Your%20Horse.pdf

There were quite a few UK students in my classes, and they were there because of the lack of good farriers. Tired of having lame horses with no relief. Tired of trying to get good, qualified help and having none available.

Believe me - the UK is FAR from being the golden child.

[Auventera Two]

Another Cytek link

http://www.cytekhorse.com.au/Cytek%20Shoes.pdf

http://www.cytekhorse.com.au/What%27s%20the%20Problem.pdf

And if you look at the second link you can see the Cytek shoe is stamped with "UK"

LOL

The things that kill me about Cytek shoeing is that the shoe the fronts and hinds identically because they contend that the front and hind pedal bones are only 3% different in shape, and 300 years ago there was no such thing as front and rear shoes. So they don't believe there should be any difference in the shoeing.

Also, the shoes are not shaped because they are not following the hoof wall. It's a "sole shoe" that covers the sole and since they content that the pedal bones of all horses are the same (???!!!) that all Cytek shoes are the same - just different sizes. The shoe is not meant to be altered. Take it out of the box - stick it on.

[Rick Burten]

From the Cytek Website:

"Because every horse's foot is physiologically standardized, every Cytek shoe, of every size, is a standardized shape."

Say what??? At least five different shapes of front feet have been described by various individuals, researchers, et al, and J. Scott Simpson, in an effort to help farriers better recognize the different shapes and to be able to fabricate a correctly fitted shoe, gave the shapes the following names/descriptions: Norman, Spike, Stubby, Tag and Ralph.

"The Norman pattern is considered the most normal fore hoof shape, and is generally round with the widest part of the foot located midway between the toe and heels.

The Spike pattern is generally square, with straight quarters and sharply turned in heels. The widest point of the foot is midway between the toe and heels.

The Stubby pattern is generally round, but wider than it is long. The widest part of the hoof will be about midway between the toe and heels.

The Tag pattern is most common in hind feet. It is somewhat pointed at the toe, straight through the quarters, and turns sharply at the heels. The Tag hoof is widest across its rear third.

The Ralph pattern is generally asymmetric, with the widest part of the foot located in the rear third and one buttress farther back than the other."

Everything about the Cytek protocols is such garbage. That it still exists is testament to the gullibility of some and the accuracy of Mr. Barnum's observation of the human condition.

Of course, that's JMNTBCHO.

[Auventera Two]

The fact that UK farriers STILL nail Cytek shoes is proof that the UK isn't void of hack farriery, regardless of any said licensing or regulation. I just get a little tired of the same old rhetoric.

I'm not sure that I agree with the notion of licensing here in the U.S. There are MANY more horses, farriers, and disciplines here than in the UK. The UK is barely the size of one of our states. How could it be possible to govern every horse, every discipline, and every farrier by one standard or protocol?

Just like anything else - anybody can go to school and learn how to shoe a horse. But it takes a person with the heart, the inate talent, and the "gift" to do a great job. Licensing will ensure that everyone shoeing horses has at least some measure of education, that much is true. But it goes beyond education also. There is some measureable amount of passion, and compassion that needs to be part of the equation and unfortunately, those are aspects that cannot be taught.

Then what about us trimmers? Would we need to attend farrier's school also in order to be licensed/certified? I would be willing to do it. Heck, I've thought about it anyway.

I just feel that standardization is much easier in an area like the UK where there are far fewer horses, hoof care professionals, and geographic area to oversee.

[Thomas_1]

The fact that UK farriers STILL nail Cytek shoes is proof that the UK isn't void of hack farriery, regardless of any said licensing or regulation. Erm do you know that there are only 24 "Cytek" Farriers in the UK

I just get a little tired of the same old rhetoric.
Well just stop it ;)

How could it be possible to govern every horse, every discipline, and every farrier by one standard or protocol? Where there's a will there's a way.

Then what about us trimmers? Get them regulated and stopped from buying "degrees" and other one day wonder qualifications.

[rmh]

My profession is licensed, by individual states. The people doing the evaluations are many times part of the problem. If there was good peer review then this might be bettered. However it is sometimes a case of who you know. These people then brag to their clientele how good they are due the fact there are on the state licensing board. As long as people are uneducated about the treatment they or their horses are receiving then there will always be substandard care. Many times the tone of responders and the bickering gets in the way of people asking for help and trying to better their hoof knowledge. If they are being part of the problem they should keep it to themselves. There is a lot of new research about the equine foot. Many of the old books are outdated and new knowledge needs to be added. Every profession needs to strive for the best and not be satisfied with the old adage "I have done it this way for X number of years so it must be right". That holds true whether it is horses or people.

[grayarabs]

wildRed: I looked again at both sets of photos your posted. I can find nothing good to say about them. The toe dubbing is bad - and the heels are long and way too forward - you see the heel just hanging in limbo off the back of the shoe? The back of the shoe to the heel/hairline - that "heel in the air" is just begging to be touching the ground.
Because of that long/under-run heel - putting a larger or longer shoe on will not help - horse will just step on it and pull it off. Did you look at the photos I referred to my post no 45? Where your horse makes ground contact at back of shoe is waaaay too forward.
This is often seen. It makes me think that someone pulled on the horse's toes (like in a cartoon!) - pulled them forward an inch or two - which also pulls forward the heels.
It does not fix the problem to dub the toe like that and disregard the heels - which is what has been done apparently. The farrier them paints himself into a corner. As in - where to place the shoe? Meanwhile - six weeks later the heel has grown some more - and the process continues. This problem is at epidemic proportions. How that can be fixed with shoes on - I don't know. If it could be fixed - why has it not been? Does your farrier not realize the problem? Many of us have pointed out the problems - it is up to you decide what to do. Carry on as before? Or fix the problem - and for that I recommend pulling the shoes - finding a good barefoot trimmer (websites given previous posts) and work on backing up the toes and lowering and backing up the heels until the hoof is correctly placed under the bony column. Again - please refer to the photos I mentioned of healthy hooves.
If you give general idea where you are located - perhaps we can find someone to trim for you. Good luck and keep updating. Rick - next post is for you.

[grayarabs]

Rick - I reply to you - I agree - in most cases "it depends". But I don't think so - not in this case - or the hundreds/thousands out there like it. How could you possibly correct long/under-run heel - long toe - with six week shoeing cycles? Show me photos/case studies where you - or anyone else has done it - and I will change my tune. Someone posted on another thread - this can be corrected in 3-4 shoeings - if that is true - why is it not being done - why do we see over and over hooves like the OP's? My horse came with LF under-run - he was barefoot - and not as bad as hooves of OP. I/my trimmers have worked on that hoof regularly - for sure trimming - or at least rasping much more frequently than six week intervals. I would make a rough guess I touch up that hoof every two weeks by backing up the toe and lowering (if necessary) and backing up the heel.
He no longer has a long-stretched forward hoof. It is shorter from heel to toe and has gained concavity. I don't see how that could have been done with shoes on.
I also walk him on asphalt a few days a week for about 20 minutes - I inspect his hooves before and after our walk. I can see where he is wearing. Particularly the heels - I can see exactly where he has "scraped" worn - whatever - the heel wall - which is as far back as it could go - and right at widest part of frog. It is fascinating to see - and confirms where he wants to land - which is where he should be landing/wearing. None of this possible with shoes on. Again - I offer a friendly challenge - show me how you can get those toes back (not dubbed - but aligned with new growth - the approx 1 inch below C.band) and heels down/back with shoes on.

[Rick Burten]

Again - I offer a friendly challenge - show me how you can get those toes back (not dubbed - but aligned with new growth - the approx 1 inch below C.band) and heels down/back with shoes on.
Only trimmed and shod this horse once. It was at a training barn where I work and was gone before it was time for a reset. Based on what I accomplished at the first trim, I have no doubt that this situation would fairly quickly resolve. It is also relevant, I believe, to note that this is a 20+ year old horse whose feet have been in this condition for who knows how long. This is an Arabian stallion competing in the Sport Horse division, Dressage and Hunter on the flat classes.
b/4
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome001-1.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome003-1.jpg
trimmed, solar view
The toe was not trimmed from the bottom so still appears "stretched" in this photo. The breakover location was determined, the shoe set appropriately and the toe distortion then was removed.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome005-1.jpg
note the bruising that clearly outlines the distal leading edge of p3. The shoes are set so that breakover occurs ~1/4 inch in front of this line.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome007-1.jpg
Trimmed, lateral view
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome008-1.jpg
Shod, solar view
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome014-1.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome015-1.jpg
shod, lateral view
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome013-1.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome012-1.jpg

Questions? Comments?

[goeslikestink]

Some of the most horrifying hack jobs I've ever seen came out of the UK with Cytek farriers/shoeing. :eek: A girl I was in class with trims full time and a lot of her clients are ex Cytek people. You wouldn't believe the shoeing jobs. It's like Natural Balance on crack. Toes chopped off right back to the pedal bone, totally square. Horses that couldn't walk due to the pressure on the pedal bone. Pedal osteitis and pressure necrosis. Muscle atrophy from horses so painful they couldn't move. You want to see a sweet, cute little 98 pound trimmer turn into a raging maniac ready to scratch out somebody's eyes? Mention Cytek. Wowweee. Sure, it might help some horses, but the shoeing and trimming is so radical that a lot of horses just don't respond well to it at all. And THOSE horses are the ones left in pain needing help.

http://www.cytekhorse.com.au/Your%20Horse.pdf

There were quite a few UK students in my classes, and they were there because of the lack of good farriers. Tired of having lame horses with no relief. Tired of trying to get good, qualified help and having none available.

Believe me - the UK is FAR from being the golden child.


not saying we the golden child but take offensive of your attitude

[edit]

i cannot and dont accept anything with you say as gospel
nothing personal just dont believe in your type of education system as regards to the horses feet
and to teach others


op -- this is both infomational as well as what not to do, for if you want the bes for your horse then you dont want it it be based on lies

you see if the above is teaching others on how she was tuaght -- ie lies then the circle
is going to expand and continue and this what is worng with the above education system
and becuase of as in teaching others then mores horses are going to be abused main or lamed as there is no true guidance its a bit like parellli selling his wares to try this at home stuff and charging heaps for stuff that can be possiable dangerous for new owners

but at the end of the day its people-- and horse but mainly horses that suffer from the likes of these sorts of education systems



and dont ask me to post my feet -- i asked and i have shown rick and theres nothing wrong with them -- as i expected why ask rick becuase hes qualified and i valued his opnion as a usa resident and farrier in coaparison to a uk one-plus the fact i cant post pics and now havent the time to- if hes says they good then they good end of decussion

[CristyC]

OMG! A real live farrier that gave the horse expansion room and left shoe behind the heel for support, put on a wedge to get the proper angles of the P1, P2 and P3 in better alignment to help make sure no blood flow was impeded and give the heel a chance to grow the correct direction, set the shoe BACK to as close to the breakover that the hoof at this stage would allow so the horse can actually move his shoulder freely as well as add a pad that will help support the digital cushion and frog and hence all the bones inside and hopefully get that heel expanded. Hallelujah! Where do you live? I'm going to move there. Just kidding on the where you live part, I am fortunate enough to have a farrier as careful as you who works as a team member with my vet and me too. Nice job, I hope for this horses' sake they keep ya and I bet he quit tripping immediately. (guessing that he did before).

(Sorry I don't mean to pick on any other farriers here inadvertently by leaving them out but this is a huge improvement for this horse! It couldn't be ignored.!)


Only trimmed and shod this horse once. It was at a training barn where I work and was gone before it was time for a reset. Based on what I accomplished at the first trim, I have no doubt that this situation would fairly quickly resolve. It is also relevant, I believe, to note that this is a 20+ year old horse whose feet have been in this condition for who knows how long. This is an Arabian stallion competing in the Sport Horse division, Dressage and Hunter on the flat classes.
b/4
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome001-1.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome003-1.jpg
trimmed, solar view
The toe was not trimmed from the bottom so still appears "stretched" in this photo. The breakover location was determined, the shoe set appropriately and the toe distortion then was removed.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome005-1.jpg1/4 inch in front of this line.
note the bruising that clearly outlines the distal leading edge of p3. The shoes are set so that breakover occurs ~
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome007-1.jpg
Trimmed, lateral view
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome008-1.jpg
Shod, solar view
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome014-1.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome015-1.jpg
shod, lateral view
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome013-1.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m129/RickB_04/hi-losyndrome012-1.jpg

Questions? Comments?

[snowpony]

Ouch! Under-run heels, short shod horse.

[Rick Burten]

Ouch! Under-run heels, short shod horse.
What ever has given you the silly notion that this horse is short shod?

By the way Christy C., this is 'everday' normal, routine hoofcare in my custom. Thank you for the kind words.

[Moderator 1]

Please limit the main course of discussion on the thread to that related to the original post--this horse's feet and situation and issues related to it. If those interested would like to spin off another thread from focusing on the concept of licensing, etc., you're welcome to do so.

Hit the alert button on a spinoff thread if started to give us a heads up, and I can move over the posts from this thread that are related to that topic.

Thanks.

[Appassionato]

OP, as you can now see it's hard to really evaluate hooves based on just pics of the hooves. Much more is involved.

and dont ask me to post my feet -- i asked and i have shown rick and theres nothing wrong with them

That's NOT "posting" pictures, by the way. That's sharing them with one person.

[Katy Watts]

Nice work, Rick. This is very similar to the package that works so well for my mares. I fired a lot of farriers over the years, but I'd hire you.

Yes, folks there ARE farriers out there who understand how fix long toes and underrun heels, and so far, only the ones trained in NB around my area seem to 'get it'. I'm sure if the next farrier followed up appropriately, this horse was well on its way to being fixed. I know from personal experience with a foundered mare whose feet run forward BAD, if you give proper support you can redirect the way the foot grows out. Support it properly long enough, and soon you have a whole new foot that grows in the proper direction. Presto chango, distortion is gone.
Katy

[Auventera Two]

How could you possibly correct long/under-run heel - long toe - with six week shoeing cycles?

Obviously, I don't shoe my horses, but I do think there's some danger in saying always and never. Libbey wore NBs for a 5 week cycle. It wasn't the end of the world. It "is" possible to do what you propose with shoes on. I've seen my farrier do it. But it involves mapping where the pedal bone is, setting the shoe back, and removing the toe in front of the shoe. It's not a system I particularly care for, but it does work.


Show me photos/case studies where you - or anyone else has done it - and I will change my tune.

I don't have photos, but I know of one particular case of a Saddlebred mare whose owner was guilty of neglect. I watched the farrier set a NB shoe way back toward the apex then remove 2 full inches of hoof in front of the shoe. Talk about scary. But there was no leak, and the mare moved off sound. The farrier did ask me to draw a line on the sole where I thought the pedal bone was. I drew the line, he concurred, then cut the toe off.

I admit that it's something that I would do because I am not comfortable with such drastic trims. Also, as a trimmer, I don't have the option of fixing a shoe to provide protection after a more drastic trim. If I chop off a bunch of foot and the horse is in pain, then the owner is stuck relying on boots and pads, or the horse has to suffer. And that's not something I want to be responsible for. But yes, I've seen it done. And the next visit, the mare looked much better.

Someone posted on another thread - this can be corrected in 3-4 shoeings - if that is true - why is it not being done - why do we see over and over hooves like the OP's?

I think too often there are breed standards that dictate how horses are trimmed and shod. And often those standards aren't what's best for the horse, but what looks good in the ring. Also, there is a lack of owner knowledge.