Pics Added-I can't get my mare sound-shoeing question

[ciscolark]

She has a suspensory issue which is proving to be very difficult to overcome. That aside, does anyone see anything foot related that could help her move more comfortably? Any comments, suggestions, or critiques would be appreciated. I also posted pics of my other horses feet on a seperate thread since I had the camera out anyway. Thanks!

http://picasaweb.google.com/ciscolark/PFeet

[jack mac]

it wont get any better if you don't address the contracted heels & that wont happen if your farrier keeps following them in & not giving the horse wider heel support ;)

[Appassionato]

In the pics of which she stands the widest,.the horse appears straight "somewhat" in the hooves, but when she stands "normally" (evenly weight bearing) she stands kind of pigeon toed...that alone brings questions to what's happening to the joints.

From my perspective of owning mostly flat-footed TB's the heels appear tall to me, but I'm also no fan of cutting to blood. Have you had x-rays done on this horse? What did they show?

[merrygoround]

I would deal with the suspensory problem first, and foremost.

The heels do not appear in your photos to be contracted, however in one photo her foot looks unlevel, but I suspect that was the angle of the photo.

She does carry a lot of heel but her pastern hoof axis, appears to be correct.

[Appassionato]

I would deal with the suspensory problem first, and foremost.

The heels do not appear in your photos to be contracted, however in one photo her foot looks unlevel, but I suspect that was the angle of the photo.

She does carry a lot of heel but her pastern hoof axis, appears to be correct.

In that poor hoof form can cause suspensory problems, I'd absolutely opt for x-rays.

What area are you in, ciscolark? I'd be happy to help you with info.

[ciscolark]

Thanks everyone. Appassionato I would love to take you up on your kind offer...I am close to Atlanta-ish. She has had xrays done, but may need some more recent ones since her farrier (and hence her feet) have changed.

Merrygoround, I appreciate your comments, would you mind elaborating more on dealing with the suspensory.... She did stall rest six months....came back nicely, I moved, changed farriers (four times) and she is now back to confinement to a small flat and dry paddock after it flared again, because she was so unhappy inside and it just didn't seem fair (or to be working). She has had the same farrier for 6 months. She gets Legend injections monthly (she can't get Adequan because she has severe allergic reactions to it). The vet said Shock Wave in an option, but I'm not sure how good the outcome would be...and it would be quite hard on the budget...maybe it would work? I am open to all suggestions, I love this mare and want her sound, but short of moving back to my farrier several states away, I am not sure what direction to go. So, any advice would be appreciated.

She has been ultrasounded and is monitored by the vet....

She is the opposite of a flat footed horse, but her feet are not looking like they used to...I wish I had the knowledge or access to it to figure out what is best for her. I'm trying

[Hampton Bay]

The heels in the front are really contracted, and in the LF they look quite a bit too high. The RF heels are crooked. See how the RH is oddly shaped? That funny bluging part is flaring.

The toes look OK, though I would roll them more. But the heels all around, especially in the front, look a lot too high. The bars also look a bit too high to me as well (in the hinds). They may be impacted, and that would cause her pain.

She looks like she is on her tippy toes to me? Which would go with the heels being too high. It just looks uncomfortable.

[ciscolark]

I have added new pictures which were shot from ground level. Thanks for all of the replies so far!

[Lookout]

In general the feet are not balanced all around (relative to each other) and it's not surprising there are some lameness issues going on. I'm not a fan of shoeing the fronts and leaving the hinds bare and in this job in particular you can see how this leads to very different (unbalanced) feet front vs. hind which must be compounding the problems.

The front heels are too high. This is probably the most common hoof form problem that can lead to suspensory issues. You can see that the heels are too high because of the way the horse is leaning over the front feet, not standing square, and comparing them to the hind heels. The heels on the fronts are definitely contracted and it looks like the shoes are short, which mgiht contribute to this issue. But the worst contraction is what you can see from the back - how the hoof curves in, in an hourglass shape. In one shot (heels down) the LF looks medially/laterally imbalanced but in another, it doesn't. So I would take another look at that.

The hinds are badly flared and to me they look reversed - flaring to the inside instead of the outside. In any case these flares should be corrected. The RH needs the most work in terms of the bottom of the foot - the outside is way higher than the inside and the high point is way below the heel. The heel should be the highest point and thus weightbearing.

[Appassionato]

When were the last x-rays taken? Can you show them via photobucket or webshots? Also, have you discussed any of this with the farrier, the earlier farrier and the one you use now?

What did the ultrasound show? What is being done now? How is the mare kept (stalled, turned out and on what kind of footing)?

[ciscolark]

The ultrasound showed that the left front had mild effusion of the suspensory ligament and hyperechoic flecks (most likely areas of mineralization). She is on confined 24/7 turnout...she didn't handle the stall rest well. She is in the stall occassionally. She is on flat ground, mostly gravel with dirt on top (picked everyday), but with mud around the edges. She is getting hand walked with a little trot (on stone dust) and gets monthly legend injections. She is sometimes sound and sometimes not. The current farrier is aware of her issues (and believe it or not her feet look better than with the last couple of farriers), though I think talking about it even more will be helpful. It may be that she is making good improvements, but there is so much to correct that it all can't happen at once. The vet has recommended shock wave, which I am considering ($$$), but I also want to make sure her feet are the best they can be (which I am not sure they are right now). Her X-rays are old (2005), and I will definitely consider getting new ones if the vet and farrier think it will help.

Jack Mac, would wider heel support be enough to address the contracted heels?

Look out, how do you go about bringing the heels down.

I wish I was more knowledgeable so that I could really assess what is going on and get her going comfortablyl again.

[jack mac]

The ultrasound showed that the left front had mild effusion of the suspensory ligament and hyperechoic flecks (most likely areas of mineralization). She is on confined 24/7 turnout...she didn't handle the stall rest well. She is in the stall occassionally. She is on flat ground, mostly gravel with dirt on top (picked everyday), but with mud around the edges. She is getting hand walked with a little trot (on stone dust) and gets monthly legend injections. She is sometimes sound and sometimes not. The current farrier is aware of her issues (and believe it or not her feet look better than with the last couple of farriers), though I think talking about it even more will be helpful. It may be that she is making good improvements, but there is so much to correct that it all can't happen at once. The vet has recommended shock wave, which I am considering ($$$), but I also want to make sure her feet are the best they can be (which I am not sure they are right now). Her X-rays are old (2005), and I will definitely consider getting new ones if the vet and farrier think it will help.
Jack Mac, would wider heel support be enough to address the contracted heels?

Look out, how do you go about bringing the heels down.

I wish I was more knowledgeable so that I could really assess what is going on and get her going comfortablyl again.your farrier needs to stop paring the frog lowering the heel to much & then following the heels in & get rid of the side clips they do not allow a hoof to expand when the full weight of the horse comes on to the limb , if you look at the size of the frogs on the hinds that what you should be seeing in your fronts & what you should be working to restore , that's why your horse has done a suspensory there is no heel support due to contraction :yes:PS what the hell do you need xrays for its simple stop fitting the heels in start fitting them a little wider with every shoeing paint the frogs with oil regularly to keep them pliable & the heels will widen over time.

[jack mac]

personally you need to find a better vet, because if that vet couldn't see that it is the contration & lack of out side heel support that lead to that injury in the first place, then they are incompadent ,& all the treatment in the world suggested & offered by them to fix the lameness is pointless ;)

[Lookout]

Look out, how do you go about bringing the heels down.

To lower heels, you trim them down with a hoofknife. Notice that they grow during the trim cycle, and watch the farrier trim before he shoes - he'll probably lower them back to where they started at the previous trim. They need to be lowered more than that, a little lower at each susbsequent trim. However this can be a problem if you only shoe every 6 weeks, because more has grown back than you can trim.

My guess from looking at these feet is that the problem is originating with the RH and the problem in th LF is a compensatory issue (as will usually be the case with diagonal pairs). I would concentrate on getting the trim on that foot corrected and I'd be willing to bet you'll see a much sounder horse.

[JB]

I took a few of the pictures and drew lines in them to show you roughly where these feet should be. You can clearly see how out of bounds they are. If your farrier has been doing these feet for a while, he obviously doesn't get it, and you need to find a new one. Don't expect your vet to know anything about feet - most don't. But it's not worth finding a new vet over, if you like this one otherwise, since, as I said, *most* don't.

RF - the arrow also shows where (roughly) the shoe should be - the foot is very short-shod
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e73175200000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

LF - what is that bulge the arrow points to? That's worrisome, and it doesn't look like it's a chunk of dried mud
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e71175000000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

LF again - same as RH - quite short shod, long, forward foot
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac470ad68700000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

RH - WAY out of m/l balance
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e7f175e00000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

LH - also way out of m/l balance
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e7c966d00000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg


With the LF like it is, you're fighting an uphill battle on healing the suspensory.

The very unbalanced state of the other 3 feet are hindering progress as well, since she is having to compensate through her entire body.

[jack mac]

To lower heels, you trim them down with a hoofknife. Notice that they grow during the trim cycle, and watch the farrier trim before he shoes - he'll probably lower them back to where they started at the previous trim. They need to be lowered more than that, a little lower at each susbsequent trim. However this can be a problem if you only shoe every 6 weeks, because more has grown back than you can trim.

My guess from looking at these feet is that the problem is originating with the RH and the problem in th LF is a compensatory issue (as will usually be the case with diagonal pairs). I would concentrate on getting the trim on that foot corrected and I'd be willing to bet you'll see a much sounder horse.you are obsessed about cutting the hell out of horses heels, iv had a good hard look at the trims on your link & do you know what, there not one not a one even remotely trimmed in any fashion properly, whats your go, what are you looking at on this horse that tells you the heel need to be cut lower ? or is that your answer to every thing in hoof care chopping the heels to blazers hope for the best because i bought a hoof knife & it fixes everything :mad:

[jack mac]

I took a few of the pictures and drew lines in them to show you roughly where these feet should be. You can clearly see how out of bounds they are. If your farrier has been doing these feet for a while, he obviously doesn't get it, and you need to find a new one. Don't expect your vet to know anything about feet - most don't. But it's not worth finding a new vet over, if you like this one otherwise, since, as I said, *most* don't.

RF - the arrow also shows where (roughly) the shoe should be - the foot is very short-shod
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e73175200000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

LF - what is that bulge the arrow points to? That's worrisome, and it doesn't look like it's a chunk of dried mud
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e71175000000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

LF again - same as RH - quite short shod, long, forward foot
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac470ad68700000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

RH - WAY out of m/l balance
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e7f175e00000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

LH - also way out of m/l balance
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e7c966d00000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg


With the LF like it is, you're fighting an uphill battle on healing the suspensory.

The very unbalanced state of the other 3 feet are hindering progress as well, since she is having to compensate through her entire body. <deleted, unnecessary> ....you will have that poor woman bleeding her horse to death if she follows those trimming recommendations

[Dianna]

I am by no means qualified to comment on the farrier work that is being performed or how it should be changed (other than it isn't the best job). However, I have had this discussion with more than one farrier in the past ... even with x-rays, sometimes you simply cannot cut off to the points where the vet (or whomever) has drawn the lines ... it simply isn't possible when you have the actual hoof in hand.

I will say that with suspensories, I like a bar shoe ... and all the BF experts can argue that shoes can't possibly provide support, but the bottom line, having rehabbed suspensories over the years, with long lasting results, eggbars were definitely part of the program. Along with wrapping and using sports boots to restrict the full range of motion during the healing process.

[Lookout]

, what are you looking at on this horse that tells you the heel need to be cut lower ?
Please back up and re-read (or read more likely) my first post where I addressed that issue.

[jack mac]

ill explain it in layman terms rather then 20 post, injuring a suspensory whether torn or stretched is the equivalent in a human of some one rolling there ankle, in this horses case he has contracted heels which has most likely lead to it, what needs to be done to help this horse is to get those heels back out to were they should be to give him support, so it lesson the chance of it happening again the suspensory healing is a separate issue all though reliant on better support being given .

[jack mac]

Please back up and re-read (or read more likely) my first post where I addressed that issue. sounds a lot like your obsessed with cut heels down to the quick to me, maybe my comprehension is laking or am i just being a heel & your thinking of cutting me to the quick :winkgrin:

[JHUshoer20]

She has a suspensory issue which is proving to be very difficult to overcome. That aside, does anyone see anything foot related that could help her move more comfortably? Any comments, suggestions, or critiques would be appreciated. I also posted pics of my other horses feet on a seperate thread since I had the camera out anyway. Thanks!

http://picasaweb.google.com/ciscolark/PFeet
In addition to what Jack says you're going to need a lot of patience. It's a slow healing long naggy drawn out process which will take oftentimes a year or more.
George

[Rick Burten]

ill explain it in layman terms rather then 20 post, injuring a suspensory whether torn or stretched is the equivalent in a human of some one rolling there ankle,
When a tendon or ligament is stretched beyond its working length, aren't some, if not most/all of the fibers torn at least a little bit. :confused:
in this horses case he has contracted heels which has most likely lead to it,
How do contracted heels lead to suspensory injuries? Could a suspensory injury occurring first, then lead to contracted heels?
what needs to be done to help this horse is to get those heels back out to were they should be to give him support,
I agree, with the caveat that doing this alone will not solve the problem. All the other distortions evident in the foot/feet must also be addressed.

In your opinion, how long does it take for a suspensory injury to heal and what should the treatment and management protocol be?

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

Let's narrow some things down.

1. The horse is not necessarily a chrisitian when it comes to shoeing. Just being able to get around this mare safely without drugs is somewhat of an accomplishment. You can't get near her with a hot shoe, and once she's had enough, she's had enough.

2. The SL issue has been going on much longer than 6-8 months. The SL issue along with an old hock injury I believe in the RH, can't remember. Anyhow there has been much improvement in the last 6 months not only with the lameness but also with improvement of the overall health of the feet. There are distortions present, but at this time they cannot be completely removed safely. It does however get less and less with each shoeing. I've shod this horse roughly 5/6 times.

3. Part of the problem is the turnout situation. This horse is out 24/7 on a hillside in the woods covered in mud much of the year. Any kind of theraputic shoeing package is difficult to keep on the mare when she's turned out in those conditions. It's also difficult for a SL issue to heal when turned out in those conditions shoeing package attached or not. While sliding in the mud and tripping on tree limbs and stumps I don't see the theraputic value in that. That's why she is shod as tightly as she is. I would by no means consider it "short shod" but it's not what I would like to do in better conditions, however keeping the shoes on is better than her limping around barefoot.

4. The only reason the horse was seen by the vet roughly 5/6 months ago is because I asked for it. Otherwise we would still be shooting blindly. The recomendations for shoeing and treatment were made at that time. If I remember correctly the Vet also thought there was a good chance the mare would not return to 100% soundness due to the hock issue.

I will call the vet tonight and get the specifics again.

5. The only information I've received from the owner was that at the end of the shoeing cycle as the mare's toes get longer her soundness declines, but after shoeing, she does fairly well. I've had no complaints and nothing but positive response in the shape of her feet compared to when I started. I've considered shoeing her with pads and frog support however I don't think the shoes would stay on in the living conditions she is in, and the owner has stated she doesn't want to put the mare on stall rest.



Dave

[JB]

JB your not wearing your tight stretchy pants again are you, you relay shouldn't play with your paint program you will have that poor woman bleeding her horse to death if she follows those trimming recommendations

I never said put the feet there in one trimming.

[JB]

JB you tolled me once your a teacher, what is it exactly that you do teach ?


Get your posters straight please, I never told you any such thing.

[JB]

iwhat needs to be done to help this horse is to get those heels back out to were they should be

So jac, what would *you* do? Why don't you show us with some purty line drawings where *you* think the feet should be?

Simply saying "get those heels back" doesn't help most people.

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

I just got off the phone with the vet, and re-affirmed the idea that the SL issues 5/6 months ago were chronic at that time with mineralization and definite deformity of the ligament and it's attachments, confirmed with ultrasound. All of this damage happened far before we started working on the horse, and the owner was told that the return to 100% soundness may not happen. At that time shock wave therapy was also recomended but as of yet not done. The vet also told me that in their last communication with the owner, the owner said the mare had appeared much better and for the most part sound.


Dave Purves RJF:(

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

I took a few of the pictures and drew lines in them to show you roughly where these feet should be. You can clearly see how out of bounds they are. If your farrier has been doing these feet for a while, he obviously doesn't get it, and you need to find a new one. Don't expect your vet to know anything about feet - most don't. But it's not worth finding a new vet over, if you like this one otherwise, since, as I said, *most* don't.

RF - the arrow also shows where (roughly) the shoe should be - the foot is very short-shod
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e73175200000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

LF - what is that bulge the arrow points to? That's worrisome, and it doesn't look like it's a chunk of dried mud
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e71175000000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

LF again - same as RH - quite short shod, long, forward foot
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac470ad68700000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

RH - WAY out of m/l balance
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e7f175e00000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg

LH - also way out of m/l balance
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8dc36b3127cceb5ac4e7c966d00000025100AZtmzRs2ct2 Kg


With the LF like it is, you're fighting an uphill battle on healing the suspensory.

The very unbalanced state of the other 3 feet are hindering progress as well, since she is having to compensate through her entire body.

I'd be happy to fly you in and let you have at making those feet look like your drawings, but you'll have to pay the vet bill. I'm guessing you must be a farrier or a vet because you seem to think you know something about this. Judging from your drawings you're not a very good farrier or vet though cause you would know that there isn't that much distortion in the feet. I will admit there is distortion, but to remove all of it at once would result in very painful feet.

Perhaps you should stick to business analysis.

Dave Purves RJF

[ThirdCharm]

Interesting. Sounds like the small, dry, flat paddock, is a new development? Maybe that will help? If I was keeping an unsound horse in the conditions described, and especially if said horse didn't exactly stand like a statue to be shod, I would be tickled pink if my farrier didn't just fire me as a client.

Jennifer

[Dianna]

Wow, I can't believe you were able to speak with the vet over the weekend ... good for you for taking such an active interest.

I am curious, since we are looking at hock issues behind (and am I wrong in assuming the suspensory is diagonel fore???), how would you feel if the owner ased for egg bars behind and upfront as well - or something along those lines??

Be kind, I'm just wondering.

[JB]

I will admit there is distortion, but to remove all of it at once would result in very painful feet.


If you had read what I said, I never said to get them there in one shot. And, I did say "roughly". Forgive me.

That said, do you disagree the feet should TRY to get there? If not, why not. If not, where would you put them? Really, teach me.

It's nice and all when people ask for a critique and someone says "toes are too long, heels too high, heels too underrun, flares everywhere, fix 'em", but what good does that do the OP when s/he has no idea what "not too long, not too high, not too underrun, not flared" means?

If you don't like what I drew, then why not be civil about it all and say "I think you'd be headed for trouble if you tried to aim for that, and here's why." Simply saying "Aaannhhh, wrong, guess again!" does nobody any good.

[Rick Burten]

I am curious, since we are looking at hock issues behind (and am I wrong in assuming the suspensory is diagonel fore???), how would you feel if the owner ased for egg bars behind and upfront as well - or something along those lines??
I'm not Dave, but considering this horse's living conditions, I think it would be an exercise in futility.

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

Wow, I can't believe you were able to speak with the vet over the weekend ... good for you for taking such an active interest.

I am curious, since we are looking at hock issues behind (and am I wrong in assuming the suspensory is diagonel fore???), how would you feel if the owner ased for egg bars behind and upfront as well - or something along those lines??

Be kind, I'm just wondering.

The vet and I work closely on many cases and getting in touch with her is usually not a problem. That's why I was surprised to see this thread. If the owner had said something to the vet, she would've called me right away and we would have approached it. Heck, if the vet had noticed something she would've called me. When it comes to working relationships between vet and farrier we have one of the best between our practice and the vets. I take this active interest in all of my/our clients.

Like Rick said, keeping eggbars on this horse would be difficult at best unless the turnout situation changed.

Dave

[Tom Stovall]

hoofrx1 in gray

I'm not Dave, but considering this horse's living conditions, I think it would be an exercise in futility.

Let's review the bidding: The horse presented with chronic suspensory problems, is either not broke to shoe or hurts too bad to shoe, and its living conditions are not conducive to remediation - or even keeping a shoe on. Given this litany of woe, the feet look mighty good to me and there appears to be light at the end of the tunnel because the horse's history indicates the horse is better fresh shod. If I were the OP, I'd find me a new place to keep my horse, I'd try to accept the fact that my horse is probably NEVER going to be plumb right, and I'd make damn sure I continued the current regimen of footcare because the horse appears to be responding, despite its living conditions.

Purvis' getting hold of a vet on a Sunday was above and beyond: Good on you Dave!

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

It's nice and all when people ask for a critique and someone says "toes are too long, heels too high, heels too underrun, flares everywhere, fix 'em", but what good does that do the OP when s/he has no idea what "not too long, not too high, not too underrun, not flared" means?

What good does it do anyone when people are critiquing something that they really know nothing about?

If you don't like what I drew, then why not be civil about it all and say "I think you'd be headed for trouble if you tried to aim for that, and here's why." Simply saying "Aaannhhh, wrong, guess again!" does nobody any good.

Why should I be civil in my reponse to you when you acted as judge and jury in saying that the feet were unbalanced, short shod, and the flare and distortion need to be removed, when if fact you didn't have all the important information, and you really don't have the knowledge or experience to say anything at all.

Dave

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

hoofrx1 in gray

I'm not Dave, but considering this horse's living conditions, I think it would be an exercise in futility.

Let's review the bidding: The horse presented with chronic suspensory problems, is either not broke to shoe or hurts too bad to shoe, and its living conditions are not conducive to remediation - or even keeping a shoe on. Given this litany of woe, the feet look mighty good to me and there appears to be light at the end of the tunnel because the horse's history indicates the horse is better fresh shod. If I were the OP, I'd find me a new place to keep my horse, I'd try to accept the fact that my horse is probably NEVER going to be plumb right, and I'd make damn sure I continued the current regimen of footcare because the horse appears to be responding, despite its living conditions.

Purvis' getting hold of a vet on a Sunday was above and beyond: Good on you Dave!

Thank you Mr. Tom. I take my ponies to heart.

Dave

[jack mac]

When a tendon or ligament is stretched beyond its working length, aren't some, if not most/all of the fibers torn at least a little bit. :confused:

How do contracted heels lead to suspensory injuries? Could a suspensory injury occurring first, then lead to contracted heels?

I agree, with the caveat that doing this alone will not solve the problem. All the other distortions evident in the foot/feet must also be addressed.

In your opinion, how long does it take for a suspensory injury to heal and what should the treatment and management protocol be?Rick your persistence to 100% irritate a person is outstanding, jack gives you a gold star, i find it quite sad that you can influence baron to edit my posters on the FF so it doesnt truly reflect what I'm conveying about your talents & have the standards set for behaviour at such a height for me, yet SO LOW for others,;) when one refers to a tear as opposed to referring to it as strained or stretched, one is referring to what one can see with the naked eye or feel with ones touch & not what has been put under magnification, with a tear you have a visual hole or detachment from the bone of connective tissues visual with out magnification, as for contraction in the heels leading to cause, I'm surprised some one of your supposed vast experience has to ask such a novice question must be shades of your brilliance shining through again, but ill humor my self, with contraction comes a narrowing of the hoof with out that broad heel base that genetic provided to support the limb the ligaments & tendons are continually being taxed more & having to cope with extra forces place upon them consistantly that would not be occurring if it had its proper wider heel base.

[ciscolark]

Ok, I am going to jump back in here. It looks like I have lots of people riled up, and I am sorry about that. Dave thanks for jumping in and giving your input. I didn't want use any names or give much more background information, because I was asking for opinions, and because I think I think you are doing a good job and didn't want to implicate you in any way. I am not unhappy, but I was asking for opinions. I have done so in the past with other farriers if you will do a search. I was posting, because I felt there was a problem. As you have clarified, what we have is not ideal. I want to state for the record that "I" am not questioning your competency or skill, but was just asking for some opinions as I continue to battle this suspensory issue in my less than perfect conditions. As I stated, perhaps not forcefully enough, her feet do look better than they did after my last several farrier fiascos. I am sorry that I have offended you. Also like stated, she is sometimes sound and sometimes not. I do have to admit that I feel a little defensive , because I do try to do best by my horses and did not feel that I was attacking anyone by posting this thread.

Let me add to the clarifications:

I have never said that the vet has implied my mare will return to complete soundness. I'd like it to happen, but her prognosis is "fair to good." It is chronic and that is what I am looking at. What I said earlier "The ultrasound showed that the left front had mild effusion of the suspensory ligament and hyperechoic flecks (most likely areas of mineralization)" was straight from the vet report. Her hocks were not reevaluated at this vet appt, because of the suspensory findings.

Her suspensory was first injured in 2002. This was diagnosed by a the vet school and was followed closely by the lameness specialist there until her feet got in good shape and she returned to soundness. Her hocks were x-rayed at this time. One did not look perfect, but it was not classified as injured or lameness causing. The recommendations at that point were followed to a T with stall rest, hand walking, and gradual return to work.

She was sound from 2003 to late in 2006. Since then, she has gradually gone from appearing to be sound but feeling to me to be not quite right. I had a hard time finding a competent farrier at this time and felt that her feet needed to be in better shape before I could better evaluate her soundness. In 2007, she got a lot worse, the vet evaluated, and Dave has been doing his best to get her back to the best she can be.

Since it has become muddy, she has not been turned out on the hill, because I do not want her sliding on the suspensory. She is in a 24 by 40 mostly pretty flat area. It is not perfectly dry or mud free(I wish it was), but the large majority of it is gravel and she does not run in it. My other horse is going on in the bigger, muddy, hill so that may be where the confusion has come from.

The vet indicated that stall rest might not be helpful since this is a chronic injury. She paws and is unhappy. I work and am busy. It's just not fair to her right now. And I am not up for having her in a stall for another year. So, no, maybe not ideal, but reality..

Dave if you are uhappy with how she is standing and feel unsafe or that she needs to be drugged, please bring this up with me. I was not aware that you felt that her manners were problematic. I would never want to put a farrier or anyone at risk from working with my horses and didn't think that was the case.

I am sure I haven't addressed everything, but ask away.

[jack mac]

Dave, I'm not knocking your work, i know you are not the culprit who caused the contraction in the heels & the original mess to the feet & suspensory troubles in the first place , Only the farrrier now left with the bag to try & address the problem & get it fixed as best one can:)

[LMH]

So I understand...this is an example of a good "well balanced" trim and accompanying shoe job according to the professionals? The shoe is correctly placed?

Is that correct?

Or is this just the best that one can manage (and not really a good example) because the mare is so unruly?

Just trying to follow along.:)

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

Dave, I'm not knocking your work, i know you are not the culprit who caused the contraction in the heels & the original mess to the feet & suspensory troubles in the first place , Only the farrrier now left with the bag to try & address the problem & get it fixed as best one can:)

Thanks Jack, I never took offense to your posts, I know the heels have some contraction, but you should've seen them 6 months ago. I'm always open to the critics. I would'nt do anything to a horse that I would be ashamed of anyone else seeing, with all the information provided that is.

Dave

[mbp618]

ok first off I would do 3 rounds of shock wave treatment set for every 2 to 3 weeks, stall rest(I know you said she wast doing well on it But I have a gelding who had similar problems and he eventually got over it) keep the leg wrapped and poultised ....:. Cold hose you know the usual .... I like ice boots two if you have
also the shock wave is soooo worth it, it really helps
good luck

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

So I understand...this is an example of a good "well balanced" trim and accompanying shoe job according to the professionals? The shoe is correctly placed?

Is that correct?

Or is this just the best that one can manage (and not really a good example) because the mare is so unruly?

Just trying to follow along.:)


If you think they are unbalanced now, you shoul've seen them when I started. The mare has thin hoof walls, and started with tons of distortion and plenty of flares. Yes the mare can be a bit hard to work on at times. Placement of the shoe really isn't too bad, in the past I have fit her much fuller and longer only to result in loosing shoes. I can only address so much of the distortion and flaring at a time, without rasping all the way through the hoofwall, leaving me nothing to drive nails in and still a long toe. Therefore I try to keep the hoofwall the same thickness around the best I can, and set the shoe back. In a perfect world I would leave the shoes wider and longer however the shoes come off, we have less foot to work with and the mare would definitely be unsound.

Dave

[LMH]

Thank you for your explanation. I was getting confused.:lol: But I am blonde so patience is essential.

I know I can be (or used to be) one of the first to jump on photos-and it really is such a tough call unless someone can provide before photos.

Also, I now realize how WICKED distortion can be in photos. I have taken photos of mine, walked up to the horse and uploaded them...gone....:confused: WTF-where did THAT foot come from, marched back down and looked at the foot, that looks nothing like the photo, rinse and repeat.

Since you are her current farrier-and I am NOT NOT NOT arguing bare-but considering her occasional impatience, her hilly living conditions, the lack of likelihood she will ever return to full Olympic caliber performance, I am confused on why even shoe her.

Are the shoes necessary for the suspensory treatment? And if it is longterm and chronic, are the shoes really even benefitting?

For a case like this, it just seems like the lesser of two 'evils?'

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

So I understand...this is an example of a good "well balanced" trim and accompanying shoe job according to the professionals? The shoe is correctly placed?

Is that correct?

Or is this just the best that one can manage (and not really a good example) because the mare is so unruly?

Just trying to follow along.:)

My point is that I've only shod this horse 5 or 6 times. It will take along time to get rid of all of the distortion, especially since neither of her horses seem to grow a whole lot of foot. Not to mention that with the pathologies present the will more than likely always be some distortion in the feet due to the horse not landing and loading properly due to lameness/compensation.

Dave

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

.

Since you are her current farrier-and I am NOT NOT NOT arguing bare-but considering her occasional impatience, her hilly living conditions, the lack of likelihood she will ever return to full Olympic caliber performance, I am confused on why even shoe her.

Are the shoes necessary for the suspensory treatment? And if it is longterm and chronic, are the shoes really even benefitting?

For a case like this, it just seems like the lesser of two 'evils?'

That's a good point, if you look at her other thread, the gelding is barefoot, and has just as much if not more distortion. The only part of his feet that really seem to grow much is the heels and bars, and they don't grow very evenly. Neither seems to carry much sole, so my first concern would be general foot soreness.

For the mare in general, I can keep the breakover moved back farther with shoes on, than I could with the shoes off, unless I really rockered her toes with the trim but shoe would certainly have to be trimmed too short to accomplish that.

Dave

[JB]

What good does it do anyone when people are critiquing something that they really know nothing about?
Well tell me Dave, how is anyone supposed to learn if all you keep doing is saying "WRONG!!!" and never saying WHY it's wrong?


So, you're telling me there are no flares and the feet are not unbalanced? Interesting.

Dave, it's clear you know more than anyone here, and it's equally clear you have no interest in helping anyone learn anything you do know. That's fine, I'll go to someone who IS willing to help those who want to learn.

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

Dave, it's clear you know more than anyone here, and it's equally clear you have no interest in helping anyone learn anything you do know. That's fine, I'll go to someone who IS willing to help those who want to learn.

I never said I know more than anyone, and I never said I was unwilling to help anyone. In fact if you go back and search all of my posts I think you'll find that I'm more than willing to help people learn. However, you approached this thread as if you knew what you were talking about, and you didn't. I don't have the time or patience to kindly teach you after you've professed to already know. If you had asked questions instead of rambled on about what you thought was right, I would've happily helped and kindly explained. You were judge and jury, without any knowledge of what was going on. I hope your clients don't turn to farriers for suggestions in their business and if they did I would gladly refer them back to you.

Dave

[LMH]

Could someone link to that thread again. I can't find it.

OK...I can understand the concern with soreness, especially a foot as distorted as this one. And I think I can understand using the shoe to really bring the breakover back further than you could with shoes.

But what about the uneven growth in the heels and the flaring. Wouldn't that be easier to bring up to par if she could be trimmed more often?

I have a hilly property and had a gelding that refused to keep shoes on. One time the farrier was just packing up and the gelding went for a little cruise across the field and promptly came back shoeless up front. (Talk about having to do some FAST talking and begging to remedy that as the truck was leaving!:lol:)

Anyway, I guess I am wondering how sore are we talking here? When my older horse retired, I didn't put any fancy trim on him-I was still living in the dark side (you know, had shod horses;))...he was tender for 2 weeks...and his feet were pretty darn contracted, he grew heel and no toe...though no suspensory issue.

So long winded question-is there any reason the suspensory needs the shoes? And if you are talking about just a couple of weeks, why not pull em, leave em and trim em later.

(Again, I am just trying to wrap my head around this since the horse is not going to be needing performance assistance any time soon.)

Traction would be sufficient if not better than shod (certainly better than eggbars-not that you are using them)...and more sure movement may allow 'better' movement (rather than stiffer movement trying to protect herself on hills)...and this could aid in not only her hoof issues, but could it help in the Suspensory issue? Or would that make it worse?

[EqTrainer]

If the owner is not willing to change the turnout situation, I would be inclined to take advantage of the sore transition period to barefoot in that it would slow her down a bit. Ideal, no. But not being able to shoe ideally because of her terrain is not great, either.. and then you would be able to trim more often and get her foot where you wanted it to be faster.

Then perhaps she could wear more shoe regardless of the terrain. I know when my guys are balanced, they don't pull their shoes in trappy footing. They sure do when they are not.

Thoughts, Dave?

[LMH]

If the owner is not willing to change the turnout situation, I would be inclined to take advantage of the sore transition period to barefoot in that it would slow her down a bit. Ideal, no. But not being able to shoe ideally because of her terrain is not great, either.. and then you would be able to trim more often and get her foot where you wanted it to be faster.

Then perhaps she could wear more shoe regardless of the terrain. I know when my guys are balanced, they don't pull their shoes in trappy footing. They sure do when they are not.

Thoughts, Dave?

That is where I was going...you just got there with less words!:lol:

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

If the owner is not willing to change the turnout situation, I would be inclined to take advantage of the sore transition period to barefoot in that it would slow her down a bit. Ideal, no. But not being able to shoe ideally because of her terrain is not great, either.. and then you would be able to trim more often and get her foot where you wanted it to be faster.

Then perhaps she could wear more shoe regardless of the terrain. I know when my guys are balanced, they don't pull their shoes in trappy footing. They sure do when they are not.

Thoughts, Dave?

In a perfect world, we would tranq the horse to shoe her, she'd get 4 shoes, with pads, probably some lateral support on the RH for the hock issue, and possibly some wedge pads on the hind feet. The front end would have rockered toes with rim pads and we would control her turnout situation. If we could do that and keep shoes on it would probably only take 2/3 shoeing cycles to really start to straighten out her feet. If I could get that more than likely I wouldn't have any trouble keeping shoes on her the way I would like to shoe her no matter what she was turned out in. However at this point her feet are in bad enough shape that I have to try and do the best I can with what I have to work with, knowing the environment the horse is in.

That said, I'm not against barefoot, however I think the transition from bad feet to good feet would take alot longer than it's taking now, simply because the horse doesn't grow much foot, and is fairly thin soled as it is.

JMO
Dave

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

If the owner is not willing to change the turnout situation, I would be inclined to take advantage of the sore transition period to barefoot in that it would slow her down a bit. Ideal, no. But not being able to shoe ideally because of her terrain is not great, either.. and then you would be able to trim more often and get her foot where you wanted it to be faster.

Then perhaps she could wear more shoe regardless of the terrain. I know when my guys are balanced, they don't pull their shoes in trappy footing. They sure do when they are not.

Thoughts, Dave?

I should add, that all things the same, I really think at this point that I can control the breakover better with shoes, which seems to be the key to the level of the horses soundness.

Dave

[ciscolark]

"In a perfect world, we would tranq the horse to shoe her, she'd get 4 shoes, with pads, probably some lateral support on the RH for the hock issue, and possibly some wedge pads on the hind feet. The front end would have rockered toes with rim pads and we would control her turnout situation. If we could do that and keep shoes on it would probably only take 2/3 shoeing cycles to really start to straighten out her feet. If I could get that more than likely I wouldn't have any trouble keeping shoes on her the way I would like to shoe her no matter what she was turned out in. However at this point her feet are in bad enough shape that I have to try and do the best I can with what I have to work with, knowing the environment the horse is in."

I had no idea that you thought this. If there is a "perfect world situation" that you think would have a shot at helping her shouldn't we disccus it? I do want what is best for her. Your group has been coming exactly a year now (2/24/07), and I would really like to discuss the things that would help her. How long do you think it will take to correct her previous shoddy farrier work? Thank you!

For everyone else, my horse is 11 years old. In 2006 she was working 2nd level dressage and playing with piaffe under the guidance of my trainer. She was a useful fun horse with some talent. We didn't start from nothing with this injury. I know we might not get back there, but I just wanted to clarify that she has not always been rehabing from this injury.

[grayarabs]

I know very little about SL problems, but. just looking at the photos - there is much to be improved on. Years of bad hoof form; I see high heels, contracted heels, under-run heels, flares, etc. If shoeing is not working - why not try bare? Trim more frequently - and get a handle on things. Nothing against TAFG - but were I to try bare - and I lived in Georgia -I would surely be calling Pete Ramey. This would be a wonderful case study to see what he could do.

[ciscolark]

I would also like to respond to the poster who said "unwilling to change the turnout situation." I really want to emphasize that I am not unwilling. She is a flat small area. It is wet and gravel (it's raining), but also mud. It's not perfect. But, since the injury is chronic the vet did not even advise stall rest, just keeping her off the steep muddy parts (she's not on anything hilly). She has lived on the side of a mountain in mud before, her feet were good, and she was sound. I really don't think this is a situation where we are just scraping by and there is nothing that can be done. I hope not :(.

[jack mac]

Could someone link to that thread again. I can't find it.

OK...I can understand the concern with soreness, especially a foot as distorted as this one. And I think I can understand using the shoe to really bring the breakover back further than you could with shoes.

But what about the uneven growth in the heels and the flaring. Wouldn't that be easier to bring up to par if she could be trimmed more often?

I have a hilly property and had a gelding that refused to keep shoes on. One time the farrier was just packing up and the gelding went for a little cruise across the field and promptly came back shoeless up front. (Talk about having to do some FAST talking and begging to remedy that as the truck was leaving!:lol:)

Anyway, I guess I am wondering how sore are we talking here? When my older horse retired, I didn't put any fancy trim on him-I was still living in the dark side (you know, had shod horses;))...he was tender for 2 weeks...and his feet were pretty darn contracted, he grew heel and no toe...though no suspensory issue.

So long winded question-is there any reason the suspensory needs the shoes? And if you are talking about just a couple of weeks, why not pull em, leave em and trim em later.

(Again, I am just trying to wrap my head around this since the horse is not going to be needing performance assistance any time soon.)

Traction would be sufficient if not better than shod (certainly better than eggbars-not that you are using them)...and more sure movement may allow 'better' movement (rather than stiffer movement trying to protect herself on hills)...and this could aid in not only her hoof issues, but could it help in the Suspensory issue? Or would that make it worse?

[edit] Dave's is not responsible for those contracted heels nor the suspensory & after reading his posts is attempting to recitified them which if you knew what you were talking about isn't an over night occurrence specially when any drastic changes to the support base will hinder the suspensory healing & may lead to the horse damaging it more & lengthening the time of recovery , my suggestions of widening the heels to address the contraction are all ready been put in to place by Dave, after reading the horses history when he took the horse on, it is what one would call a balancing act that Dave has to perform & i think Dave from what i have read is doing a good job at it . if he pulled the shoes he runs the risk of the hoof chipping back or wearing grossly uneven due to the way the horse will place pressures on its limb because of the injury, but at the same time trying to bring the heels out but with out the horse pulling the shoe that may cause more damage, regardless if Dave gets those feet perfect that is no guarantee that the suspensory will ever heal properly all he can do is provided the best support he can for that limb which will give the suspensory the best chance of heeling & best possible chance of it not occurring again the rest is up to the gods

[jack mac]

I know very little about SL problems, but. just looking at the photos - there is much to be improved on. Years of bad hoof form; I see high heels, contracted heels, under-run heels, flares, etc. If shoeing is not working - why not try bare? Trim more frequently - and get a handle on things. Nothing against TAFG - but were I to try bare - and I lived in Georgia -I would surely be calling Pete Ramey. This would be a wonderful case study to see what he could do. you really need to start smoking lower tar cigarettes your trying to blow way to much smoke up every ones;)

[LMH]

OK, I am getting more confused.

On the one hand, this horse is new in the current farrier group's care-but now I read she has been with the current farrier group for a year.

My bare horses (and other bare horses I know of) can grow a new hoof in 7 months. I should think a shod hoof should be able to complete a hoof growth cycle in a year.

So what is it that keeps this mare with an incorrect breakover and contraction and such for a year? What is unique to this mare?

Sorry for being direct (it reads rude, but my tone isn't if I were "saying" it :uhoh:).

What is the reason for her still being thin soled? I have observed (again just my observations) are that once the BO is correct and flares are addressed, the sole won't be so stretched and thin. In other words, imbalances lead to thin sole...which will correct with proper hoof form.

I can't flip back to the photos or I lose my post-but is she not bare behind? If so, what reasons in her situation are keeping those flares (or what appear from the photos to be flares) to continue on for a year?

Is it her lack of movement from her injury or living conditions that are prohibiting faster improvement?

To the OP, don't fear, you are doing the best you can with your turnout. That is all you can do.:)

[J.D.]

ciscolark....... If there is a "perfect world situation" that you think would have a shot at helping her shouldn't we disccus it? I do want what is best for her.

Seems that you have already made up your mind. $$ is an issue with shock wave, habitat is an issue and behavioral problems with the horses.


......


For everyone else, my horse is 11 years old. In 2006 she was working 2nd level dressage and playing with piaffe under the guidance of my trainer. She was a useful fun horse with some talent. We didn't start from nothing with this injury. I know we might not get back there, but I just wanted to clarify that she has not always been rehabing from this injury.


What was then and what is now are two different things. You have an injured, chronically lame horse. You are not willing, useless backed into a corner, to treat and follow recommendations for your horse.
Seems to me that you are trying to "play a victim of circumstances" here and not deal with the reality of the mare's lameness. This can be seen in the original few posts at the start of this thread; half truths and smoke screens.
If you were truly honest about trying to help your horse one would have fully disclosed all pertinent information to the masses, but if one was fully honest and wanted to truly help their horse(s) they would have sought out the professionals that are "trying" to help first. :no:

Old Addage~~~ "The truth will first piss you off, then it will set you free!"

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

OK, I am getting more confused.

On the one hand, this horse is new in the current farrier group's care-but now I read she has been with the current farrier group for a year.

My bare horses (and other bare horses I know of) can grow a new hoof in 7 months. I should think a shod hoof should be able to complete a hoof growth cycle in a year.

So what is it that keeps this mare with an incorrect breakover and contraction and such for a year? What is unique to this mare?

Sorry for being direct (it reads rude, but my tone isn't if I were "saying" it :uhoh:).

What is the reason for her still being thin soled? I have observed (again just my observations) are that once the BO is correct and flares are addressed, the sole won't be so stretched and thin. In other words, imbalances lead to thin sole...which will correct with proper hoof form.

I can't flip back to the photos or I lose my post-but is she not bare behind? If so, what reasons in her situation are keeping those flares (or what appear from the photos to be flares) to continue on for a year?

Is it her lack of movement from her injury or living conditions that are prohibiting faster improvement?

To the OP, don't fear, you are doing the best you can with your turnout. That is all you can do.:)

From Feb 07' to May 07' we had another farrier in the group that was taking care of the horses. That farrier left the practice in May, I didn't move here until June. I don't know what the other farrier saw, or what he was doing to the horses, all I know is what I was presented with.

Dave

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

OK, I am getting more confused.

On the one hand, this horse is new in the current farrier group's care-but now I read she has been with the current farrier group for a year.

My bare horses (and other bare horses I know of) can grow a new hoof in 7 months. I should think a shod hoof should be able to complete a hoof growth cycle in a year.

So what is it that keeps this mare with an incorrect breakover and contraction and such for a year? What is unique to this mare?



A chronic SL pathology, and something in the RH hock that is yet to be diagnosed. That is what is unique to this mare.

Speaking with the vet tonight, the SL on the LF is in very bad shape, it is chronic. It is something that is going to cause improper landing and loading of the foot, shod or bare, which is going to lead to imbalance and distortion. In fact the other horse was shod when I started with these guys and it was my idea to barefoot him. As bad as his feet are they are improved and getting better.

[jack mac]

Seen as your great friends with Pete Ramey, why don't you ask him to join us on to the forum & give us a few pointer on the guru trim, jack would love to compare notes & trimming teckneaks he can show us all just how good he isn't ;)

[LMH]

OK Dave-I just went back to the photos and I have questions...and these are questions so I can understand the shoeing and trimming choices.

Again, just *my* observations-I am asking based on the photos so please do correct me if the photos are showing distortion.:)

Starting with the hinds (since they are bare)...it does look (to me) like there is "room" to pull the toes back even more and address the flares with a heavy bevel without risking a leak or losing too much hoof integrity...

Is there something different that shows up in person?

You also mention you can address the BO better with shoes than bare-this is harder to see since the photos of the fronts have the shoe, so I can't see the white line, etc...but in the photos, the shoes does not appear set very far back from the end of the toe.

Is this as far back as shoe can be set on this foot? I had a horse in NB shoes and those suckers were really back on the toe then it was really rolled to meet the end of the shoe. But I don't shoe, so I don't know :)

Again, just seeing photos, it is hard to say I would NO DOUDT DO this-that is why I am asking? From my view, I also see front toes that could come back farther without causing any structure weakening.

So, for those now way to involved in your business (:lol:), could you explain what is different in reality from my observations?

Please Dave, I repeat, I am asking for education and understanding, not criticizing...and I fear my questions appear accusing, and they are not meant to be.

Just simply comparing in my head what *I* would do based on what I see, compared to your choices, knowing the horse in person.

[LMH]

You responded to my questions in the next to last while I was typing.

I have a gelding with hind end issues and he is very frustrating to chase his flares in the hinds. He has hock and sacrum issues. I feel the pain and frustration of fighting feet when something higher up is working against you.

Not that you asked for advice, and not that you need it from a limited experienced trimmer (LOL) but I finally got ahead of the gerbil on the wheel when I did a viscous bevel on his rears, and renewed it weekly at best or bi-monthly at the longest.

If I wait longer it is such a battle. I also realize though that you do not have this luxury (nor does the owner) since she must pay, you must make a living and the horse is not in your backyard.

Thanks. :)

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

Starting with the hinds (since they are bare)...it does look (to me) like there is "room" to pull the toes back even more and address the flares with a heavy bevel without risking a leak or losing too much hoof integrity...

Is there something different that shows up in person?

I believe there is. The toes are/were beveled to the white line, I can't bevel much more than that. The distortion in the RH lateral quarter is really due to the issue going on in the hock (IMO). I've taken it away only for it to return.

You also mention you can address the BO better with shoes than bare-this is harder to see since the photos of the fronts have the shoe, so I can't see the white line, etc...but in the photos, the shoes does not appear set very far back from the end of the toe.

Is this as far back as shoe can be set on this foot? I had a horse in NB shoes and those suckers were really back on the toe then it was really rolled to meet the end of the shoe. But I don't shoe, so I don't know :)

If you look closely you'll see the the shoe is really set behind the leading edge of the toe, the toe is beveled up so it appears to be fit to the toe. The toes are also rolled quite heavily so the actual breakover point is closer to the front of the clip.

Again, just seeing photos, it is hard to say I would NO DOUDT DO this-that is why I am asking? From my view, I also see front toes that could come back farther without causing any structure weakening.

I haven't gone back to look at the pics but the dorsal wall is quite straight and not flared, and the HPA is pretty darn good in the fronts. The hinds the toes may look a touch long, but again they were beveled to the white line.

[LMH]

I will go back and look again.

Thank you for taking the time to address my questions.

[J.D.]

LMH-
On the one hand, this horse is new in the current farrier group's care-but now I read she has been with the current farrier group for a year.


Under the AFG care for 1 year.




My bare horses (and other bare horses I know of) can grow a new hoof in 7 months. I should think a shod hoof should be able to complete a hoof growth cycle in a year.


Average is 9 month to a year; you have better turnout than the OP's.






So what is it that keeps this mare with an incorrect breakover and contraction and such for a year? What is unique to this mare?



It's called enviroment and pain response. Pain response is in the contraction of the flexor muscle; whether it be horn, bone or soft tissue. Thus creating distortion in all the above.
Wet; in the OP's enviroment, a creek bottom and a riding ring filled with rock dust. Horse is taken from the bottom to the top of hill, worked and then put back into wet enviroment.





Sorry for being direct (it reads rude, but my tone isn't if I were "saying" it :uhoh:).

Your never rude:winkgrin:




What is the reason for her still being thin soled?

Wet turnout and abrasive footings~~~ she opined those characteristics of the horses' habitat.




I have observed (again just my observations) are that once the BO is correct and flares are addressed, the sole won't be so stretched and thin. In other words, imbalances lead to thin sole...which will correct with proper hoof form.

Again, your turnout is a "WHOLE" different story than that of the op's; hers is a creek bottom with numerous trees. Re-read the habit of "Pawing" and suspensory injury; see above for pain response to hoof capsule and footings.





I can't flip back to the photos or I lose my post-but is she not bare behind? If so, what reasons in her situation are keeping those flares (or what appear from the photos to be flares) to continue on for a year?


Wet environment and soft footing~~~ go over to Tybee Island and check out those feet




Is it her lack of movement from her injury or living conditions that are prohibiting faster improvement?

Both.


To the OP, don't fear, you are doing the best you can with your turnout. That is all you can do.:)



Yep, but she could do better per her own admission:cool:

[LMH]

OK, one step at a time.

That RH...I looked at the solars and again photo disclaimer applies. If you look at the solar shot, that flare that sits from, say 8-10 (if viewed as a clock)...

I see a foot with fairly good connection, except in that flare zone, it seems like you can see some white line stretching in that area.

The frog isn't small and shrivelly and the heels have not bad awful heel purchase (surface area).

I would be so tempted to really bevel that flare area...I wouldn't even bother rasping the flare on the wall-no reason. But considering the foot *looks* like it could handle it, why couldn't you bevel all the way to the junction of the white line and sole?

Or did I misread and you did that previously and it has already grown back just like this?

If you did take it back to the white line/sole, and it did grow this fast, would it be possible to teach the owner how to just rasp that area so you could make some headway?

If you didn't choose to bring it back to the junction, is there a reason why? Perhaps tried it before and the horse became ouchy?

[Note to all reading and lurking, how amazing-a hoof conversation between a farrier and a DIY trimmer that is polite, exchanging thoughts and perhaps educational for those reading? See it can be done with a little manners and thought:)]

[LMH]

Thank you JD as well for entertaining my questions.:)

I do have to put it in my head that not everyone has turnout like mine...sometimes I just forget and assume the world works like it does here!:lol:

OK so here is my next thought...perhaps increasing the speed of recovery is going to take some time commitment from the owner.

Again, just my little world ;) but if the turnout is not ideal and the mare isn't going to self motivate because of injury, if her biomechanics are wrong because of pain response...

she looks like a perfect candidate for boot rehab. Now before the farriers start balking BUA propoganda, the mare IS already bare behind so this is an idea that would at least work on the rears, getting them up to par, so they can carry the load a bit while the fronts get going.

Why not invest in some hoof boots and lovely Easycare pads, handwalk her for 30 minutes a day in them. The boots will protect her, give her comfort in better biomechanics (at least as far as hoof tenderness would be of concern).

Heck for that matter, the same protocol could be used in the front if the shoes could come off (at least until the hoof restored somewhat).

I would understand wanting to keep the shoes if the mare was in work, but at this point with owner commitment, it seems to be the process could be faster with this protocol...then she could return to shoes at some point if that were the best option.

It really does work but does require effort. The best part is owner can get a great set of gams and a sexy bootie in the process if there are hills around to handwalk up and down.:winkgrin:

[grayarabs]

Cisco - could you please clarify: Where is the unsoundness? SL, hocks and hooves have been mentioned. Is she lame in her hooves? Or "only" lame due to SL tear?
Do you have photos of the mare before the SL injury? (How did that happen, anyway?).
Conformation shots? By chance any photos that show her hooves before injury?
What breed is she?

[J.D.]

LMH-Thank you JD as well for entertaining my questions.:)


Your Welcome as always!!




I do have to put it in my head that not everyone has turnout like mine...sometimes I just forget and assume the world works like it does here!:lol:

Yes, we all do. Farrierying horses in different parts of the state, region and around the "world" varies tremendously.:eek::yes:






OK so here is my next thought...perhaps increasing the speed of recovery is going to take some time commitment from the owner.

We what we does as professionals is a small part of the recovery in lameness situations. Usually a 20/80 ratio, 20% pros & 80% owners.

Again, just my little world ;) but if the turnout is not ideal and the mare isn't going to self motivate because of injury, if her biomechanics are wrong because of pain response...

...environment and "husbandry".

she looks like a perfect candidate for boot rehab. Now before the farriers start balking BUA propoganda, the mare IS already bare behind so this is an idea that would at least work on the rears, getting them up to par, so they can carry the load a bit while the fronts get going.

Wet footings most of the time. But it could be a choice in the future.







Why not invest in some hoof boots and lovely Easycare pads, handwalk her for 30 minutes a day in them. The boots will protect her, give her comfort in better biomechanics (at least as far as hoof tenderness would be of concern).


Everyone wants to address the feet, while there is an ongoing chronic suspensory problem? The worst kind of environment for a suspensory problem is slippery, wet footings.






Heck for that matter, the same protocol could be used in the front if the shoes could come off (at least until the hoof restored somewhat).


The protocol could but the "turnout" is the problem. Controlled turnout, barefoot or shoes, and hand walking usually subsides a suspensory whether it is a front leg or hind leg~~ hinds are harder to rectify in a lot of cases due to the mechanics of the hind limbs.




I would understand wanting to keep the shoes if the mare was in work, but at this point with owner commitment, it seems to be the process could be faster with this protocol...then she could return to shoes at some point if that were the best option.

Shoes or not; control of the chronic suspensory lameness has to be a first concern.

It really does work but does require effort.

*80% thing again:cool:




The best part is owner can get a great set of gams and a sexy bootie in the process if there are hills around to handwalk up and down.:winkgrin:

Yep.

:eek:

[JHUshoer20]

she looks like a perfect candidate for boot rehab. Now before the farriers start balking BUA propoganda, the mare IS already bare behind so this is an idea that would at least work on the rears, getting them up to par, so they can carry the load a bit while the fronts get going.

Why not invest in some hoof boots and lovely Easycare pads, handwalk her for 30 minutes a day in them. The boots will protect her, give her comfort in better biomechanics (at least as far as hoof tenderness would be of concern).

Heck for that matter, the same protocol could be used in the front if the shoes could come off (at least until the hoof restored somewhat).


I believe somewhere it was said the animal has creek bottom to play in. This muddy slop would get inside boots and be trapped leading to more problems than anybody needs. The guy working on the horse is experienced, qualified and well capable of dealing with this.

Boots unsuitable for this problem
George

[LMH]

To clarify I wasn't suggesting boots as a full time use item, something simply for the 'rehab' time of the day-some additional stimulus under the boundaries of handwalking.

And yes, there is enormous focus on the feet when there is a known issue elsewhere in the body.

And that actually brings up an additional thought I had.

When the mare is sound enough (from Suspensory, hock or whatever issue she has), of course correct in hand work would be essential to get her movement correct so she loads correct which in turn will stimulate the foot properly and can have a positive input on assisting with those hind flares.

There is a book called "Straigthening the Crooked Horse" which I have found invaluable for this very purpose. Of course anyone with basic in-hand skills would no what to do to get those hind feet reaching under, toward the navel, which of course changes the dynamics.

Learning what I have from observing my horses and the hoof growth over the last 5 years has really burned in my head how important the concept of WHOLE horse care is.

Quite often, as owners when we see hoof imbalances, we can be very quick to jump on the farriers when in fact it is a biomechanical issue, saddle fit issue, rider balance issue and such.

I guess the older I get, the more sympathetic I get to the enormous challenges that face the professionals trying to package an entire program when often another corner of the foundation, beyond that professional's control is missing.

I mean how popular would you be if you saw a bad footed horse and immediately told the owner-Hey babe you bounce like a sack of potatoes up there and lean to the right, no wonder pookie flares over there...he has t swing that leg to keep your arse in the saddle!:eek::lol:

Again, thanks for the good conversation. We have had some wicked weather and this has been enjoyable.

Best of luck to you all in getting this horse the best she can be.:)

[jack mac]

LMH this is for you, How to create permanent boxy feet on a horse, first step you contract the heels, that can be done in a number of ways shoeing or bare, then you keep reducing the toe back on every trim or shoeing to match the contracted heels, then you work on the flairs, which are not really true flairs at this point, but an attempted by the foot to enlarge its self, because the internals are now way to big to fit anymore in that tiny little capsule you created , so it has to start reducing cartilage & other fibres tissues & presto you now the proud mum of a horse with the boxed up feet for the rest of his days, which isn't very long most people have horses to ride them ,but that wont bother you because you weren't much for rideing them, any other gait then a walk & there to hard to pull up, so long as he can shuffle along & his feet look dainty with his over lowed heels your happy.;)

[ciscolark]

This "animal" does NOT have a creek bottom to play in. Again, she is in a 24/ 36 area which is not a hill. It is wet right now... I can't deny that.

grayarab, thanks for the questions. I will try to address the ones that I can.

I just added the only pics I have on my computer which are from various times. None are good conformation shots, but there she is. 15.1 hand Lusitano. I did have pics of her hooves from way back when (before she was injured), I need to look at see if I can locate and scan them in a couple of days.

http://picasaweb.google.com/ciscolark/RandomPics

Her first suspensory injury occured on flat pasture 3 months after I took her college and swiched farriers. I don't really know how it happened, just that it happened as docummented by the vet school and it's head lameness vet who I continued to see as needed for the next year.

Maybe, Dave will disagree with me, but I am not sure that the hock is a problem. It was never a problem when she was working and she hasn't shown lameness on that leg. Dave initiallly mentioned that it could be a problem initially because of her response when he held the leg to trim it. I don't doubt him...but it hasn't been evaluated, because she is not consistently sound on the front suspensory . She is not ouchy on her feet (i.e walking, trotting), so my feeling is that the lameness is due to the suspensory. When the vet examined her, she was hoof tested and okay. She isn't moving ideally and I suppose that the feet may be some part of that, but I don't think that she is foot sore.

I appreciate everyone continuing this discussion so that I can learn from it. Thank you!

[jack mac]

LHM i forgot to add & tell the world of this wonderful trimming protocols that brought so much pleasure to you & your horse that you feel every one else should try your experience because there so missing out.

[LMH]

To jack mac, if any responses that you bother writing are addressed to me, please don't waste any more bandwidth as you have earned the only blue ribbon position on my ignore list. :)

ciscolark, your mare is lovely. Keep asking questions and researching all of your options for her rehab...I am sure you will find the issues and hopefully the solutions that give her comfort and (fingers crossed) she will be back to her good self again.

I think it speaks loudly that your farrier has so kindly joined this thread and taken the time to answer questions that may seem like criticism on the surface. It shows he is concerned for her well being that is he taking the time.

[ciscolark]

"I think it speaks loudly that your farrier has so kindly joined this thread and taken the time to answer questions that may seem like criticism on the surface. It shows he is concerned for her well being that is he taking the time."

I completely agree!

[jack mac]

Dave mate after looking at the new link posted of that horses feet prier to your involvment , tells me you can rest your case with the jugde my friend, the only charge you have to answer to is one of stupidity in being bothered to trouble your self in trying to help this woman & her horse ;)

[jack mac]

To jack mac, if any responses that you bother writing are addressed to me, please don't waste any more bandwidth as you have earned the only blue ribbon position on my ignore list. :)

ciscolark, your mare is lovely. Keep asking questions and researching all of your options for her rehab...I am sure you will find the issues and hopefully the solutions that give her comfort and (fingers crossed) she will be back to her good self again.

I think it speaks loudly that your farrier has so kindly joined this thread and taken the time to answer questions that may seem like criticism on the surface. It shows he is concerned for her well being that is he taking the time.why thank you forplacing me on it, it must be my lucky day:yes:

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

Dave mate after looking at the new link posted of that horses feet prier to your involvment , tells me you can rest your case with the jugde my friend, the only charge you have to answer to is one of stupidity in being bothered to trouble your self in trying to help this woman & her horse ;)


Thanks for the kind words Jack. I'm don't get upset when my clients ask for help, I would just prefer them ask me first.

[ciscolark]

I thought I was recieving help Dave. I am not quite sure how posting the pictures has offended you. Sorry that it has, it wasn't my intention. People critique feet all the time on here, and I thought it might add to my knowledge.

[jack mac]

This "animal" does NOT have a creek bottom to play in. Again, she is in a 24/ 36 area which is not a hill. It is wet right now... I can't deny that.

grayarab, thanks for the questions. I will try to address the ones that I can.

I just added the only pics I have on my computer which are from various times. None are good conformation shots, but there she is. 15.1 hand Lusitano. I did have pics of her hooves from way back when (before she was injured), I need to look at see if I can locate and scan them in a couple of days.

http://picasaweb.google.com/ciscolark/RandomPics

Her first suspensory injury occured on flat pasture 3 months after I took her college and swiched farriers. I don't really know how it happened, just that it happened as docummented by the vet school and it's head lameness vet who I continued to see as needed for the next year.

Maybe, Dave will disagree with me, but I am not sure that the hock is a problem. It was never a problem when she was working and she hasn't shown lameness on that leg. Dave initiallly mentioned that it could be a problem initially because of her response when he held the leg to trim it. I don't doubt him...but it hasn't been evaluated, because she is not consistently sound on the front suspensory . She is not ouchy on her feet (i.e walking, trotting), so my feeling is that the lameness is due to the suspensory. When the vet examined her, she was hoof tested and okay. She isn't moving ideally and I suppose that the feet may be some part of that, but I don't think that she is foot sore.

I appreciate everyone continuing this discussion so that I can learn from it. Thank you!your 2003 picks tell the true story & that wonderful work of art that presents it self on your horse foot with all it treachery, any one who was in doubt before of what caused the suspensory injury & contracted heels, should have no doubts now, but i know what the NBers will say, they never applied proper NB protocoles its always the get out of jail tag they use

[JHUshoer20]

Give him a gold star Jack is right again! :lol:
George

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

I thought I was recieving help Dave. I am not quite sure how posting the pictures has offended you. Sorry that it has, it wasn't my intention. People critique feet all the time on here, and I thought it might add to my knowledge.

The funny thing is most of the people here have no business critiquing feet. If you really pay attention most of the people qualified to give an opinion will offer several different options but usually start with "it depends" or "I don't know what the farrier started with", or " I don't know what the feet looked like to begin with"

If you want answers you have to look in the right places

[ciscolark]

Even if I don't believe everything that is said, it doesn't see like asking hurts. That is where I was coming from anyway.

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

Even if I don't believe everything that is said, it doesn't see like asking hurts. That is where I was coming from anyway.

Perhaps next time you ask you can include all of the information.

[ciscolark]

If I may kindly ask, what is wrong with posting a picture and asking people what they see? I was asking for a critique of her feet as they are now, that's it. I know that her feet are a work in progress, and I think you are doing a good job. No where, did I implicate you as a cause for her soundness problems or even tie you in any way to her feet. You did that by jumping in. I appreciate the comments that you have added as they have provided me feedback and information that we have never discussed in person that apparently needs to be addressed immediately (behavior problems, turnout, prognosis for hoof care). I didn't know that we were "just getting by." If I had known that you thought her feet could be fixed in three shoeing though, you can bet I would want to discuss that.

[JHUshoer20]

I know you're talking to Dave and he'll respond to you but I'll just interject this. Anybody I work for ever does that to me that will be the last they see of me:mad:

Dave's good people. Be glad you got him.
George

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

If I may kindly ask, what is wrong with posting a picture and asking people what they see? I was asking for a critique of her feet as they are now, that's it. I know that her feet are a work in progress, and I think you are doing a good job. No where, did I implicate you as a cause for her soundness problems or even tie you in any way to her feet. You did that by jumping in. I appreciate the comments that you have added as they have provided me feedback and information that we have never discussed in person that apparently need to be addressed immediately (behavior problems, turnout, prognosis for hoof care). If I had known that you thought her feet could be fixed in three shoeing though, you can bet I would want to discuss that.

Nothing wrong with posting pics and asking what people see. When asking for a critique of how her feet are right now, don't you think it's fair for people to know what they looked like before? Improvement or not? Soundness better or not? You implied in the name of the thread that you can't get your mare sound what's wrong with the feet that will fix her. That's the implication. You stated that your dealing with a SL issue that's been hard to overcome, yet it started what.....5 years ago????????????? You make it sound like this issue was recent and should be clearing up, like you've done everything the vet has asked you to do the only thing left is to clean up the feet. So people jump on and start telling you what's wrong with the feet, howver they/ or you don't seem to realize that you can't just fix the feet with the wave of a paint brush on a computer program. It's funny that once people get the whole story the tune changes. In three shoeings her feet will improve, but I can't say what will happen with the SL. I'm also 95% sure that the right hock has something going on. It only makes sense that it would it is the diagonal limb, compensation for years of a LF SL issue would cause it to breakdown.

[Appassionato]

What an interesting turn of events! Well ciscolark, It was Dave and Jaye as well as Dr. Worsham and Dr. Phillips I was going to suggest. Between all of them, they brought my horse back from a very deadly situation. I mean that very literally, BTW.

FWIW, my "husbandry" isn't 100%, but I'm working on it! Bo is in a flat pasture that has OK drainage, so long as I don't get more than an inch of rain. Mud and slick isn't a problem here. But I'm not perfect! Jaye would have prefered that my guy stay in after putting on glue-ons...but I couldn't do that. I'd have to lock the horse up on asphault flooring. That was worse we decided, so it was "turn him out and pray." I've made the mistake of letting the horse go barefoot during a time when I couldn't get to Jaye (no ride, she was out of town) and both the vet and Jaye were slammed. Things happen.

I think the biggest mistake people make is no communication. Even if it's something small, I call Jaye and say, "I wasn't sure if this was a big deal, but I'm telling you anyway..." I never leave him or Dave to guess or or try to read my mind. I ask 1000 questions per visit about anything and everything. Some of the questions might be dumb, but I make sure we were on the same page anyway. I can't read his nor Dave's mind either. And sometimes, it really is a combination of things that don't allow for healing of a horse. I've experienced that recently.

Posting pics I agree is fine, gosh I do it often. I think the difference lies in how I post. I really make a point to read it as if I were Jaye, Dave, the docs, or whoever before submitting it. I try to clarify things...I probably over-clarify things. It's hard to read questions/comments in font sometimes like LMH mentioned, it's hard to read tone.

[ciscolark]

Dave thanks for the reply. I agree that more information and before pictures would be helpful, but I just don't have the pictures apparently. It doesn't seem to me that looking at a hoof to determine the direction to take it in the future or in an ideal situation would be a terrrible way to evaluate a foot given the I don't have previous pictures. They do it in textbooks. The information it can provide would be limited (which was self noted). Granted these could just be random people posting on the internet (or they could be knowledgeable people like you) but I still find it thought provoking. It is what is is in the picture and that is all I was asking for a critique of. If anything came of it that sounded useful, I would have loved to discuss it at our next appointment so that you could educate me to the reality of it. If there are resources avaliable that I should be utilizing, then I need to get to it.

I stated that she had the suspensory issue because I felt it might impact her feet for future recommendations that people might have. I wasn't planning on sharing every revalent detail as I just wanted a "what do you see here" response and would never have dreamed of making it personal or stating my farrier without your express permission.

I was hoping for a response as to what people thought, but now that the rest has been brought in, I'll share whatever details necessary. I know people who critique hooves all the time with no background information and can still get something useful out of the process. I guess that is what I was hoping.

I also specifically stated that I have not done everything the vet has asked me to do regarding shock wave. I stated that she is not on stall rest.

This horse had a period three good years of soundess in there following the first injury. I think it has been reinjured (yes), but I don't think we can say that she has been treated with no success for the past 6 years.

[Lookout]

It's interesting to note that the farrier's explanations all revolve around the front feet, whereas the hind feet are the ones that need more attention. The farrier says the horse will never be sound but the RH has an issue that could be addressed in 2-3 trims at the most, not a year. Trim that down and look for the hock issue to 'get better'. If the issue in the fronts is keeping the breakover back, that can be done more easily bare than in shoes. Not only can you trim more often but the horse can wear it back naturally.

[Jeff Holder]

well I'm glad that the background info was finally posted on this horse. I shod this horse a few times for the Atlanta Farrier Group. You can't do everything shoeing wise for this horse due to his attitude and living conditions.

When I started reading this thread it looked as if [the OP] was starting a farrier bash. I hope that has changed.

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

It's interesting to note that the farrier's explanations all revolve around the front feet, whereas the hind feet are the ones that need more attention. The farrier says the horse will never be sound but the RH has an issue that could be addressed in 2-3 trims at the most, not a year. Trim that down and look for the hock issue to 'get better'. If the issue in the fronts is keeping the breakover back, that can be done more easily bare than in shoes. Not only can you trim more often but the horse can wear it back naturally.

It's interesting that you can't seem to look above the feet and realize that much of the distortion is coming from issues above the hairline. If the limb is pathological, in other words if there is lameness up high, it will affect the way the foot lands and loads, which in turn affects the hoofwall, which in turn will distort, compensating for the improper landing and loading. BUt I'm sure in just a couple of weeks after the first year of initial transitioning to barefoot that you'd have this horse back performing at 3rd level dressage.

The toe will wear itself back naturally, however the foot is not being used efficeintly due to lameness, therefore it would not wear itself properly, that is the reason the heels are contracted and the toe seems to run out a little.

[Appassionato]

Were any diagnostics done on the hocks? Has DSLD been ruled out?

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

Were any diagnostics done on the hocks? Has DSLD been ruled out?

No diagnostics on the hocks since the SL was most pronounced. Vet decided to concentrate on that since the ultrasound reveled a pretty bad SL. Didn't want to waste resources ($$$) on the hock when we weren't sure we would have any luck with the SL.

Dave Purves CF RJF

[Lookout]

It's interesting that you can't seem to look above the feet and realize that much of the distortion is coming from issues above the hairline. If the limb is pathological, in other words if there is lameness up high, it will affect the way the foot lands and loads, which in turn affects the hoofwall, which in turn will distort, compensating for the improper landing and loading. BUt I'm sure in just a couple of weeks after the first year of initial transitioning to barefoot that you'd have this horse back performing at 3rd level dressage.

The toe will wear itself back naturally, however the foot is not being used efficeintly due to lameness, therefore it would not wear itself properly, that is the reason the heels are contracted and the toe seems to run out a little.

Limbs don't become pathological without a reason, and most of the time the reason starts with the foot and the way the horse is forced to use the limb because of the trim and balance, or lack thereof, over time. 'Chronic' injury says it all. Notice that the probable lameness was apparent before the OP divulged it. The RH keeps flaring out because the high bar (about an inch or two below the heel's correct high, weightbearing point) exerts pressure on the wall and pushes it out. That's why it keeps returning even after being addressed. In rehabbing this horse it wouldn't be the barefoot that would do it, but a balanced trim. (And arent' the hinds already BF?) Although, it would be much easier barefoot. I don't envy you shoers who fix the horse's foot in place for six weeks. And, I wouldn't be spending my time talking about why I couldn't do it.

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

Limbs don't become pathological without a reason, most of the time the reason starts with the foot and the way the horse is forced to use the limb because of the trim and balance, or lack thereof, over time. 'Chronic' injury says it all. Notice that the probable lameness was apparent before the OP divulged it. The RH keeps flaring out because the high bar (about an inch or two below the heel's correct high, weightbearing point) exerts pressure on the wall and pushes it out. That's why it keeps returning even after being addressed. In rehabbing this horse it wouldn't be the barefoot that would do it, but a balanced trim. Although, it would be much easier barefoot. I don't envy you shoers who fix the horse's foot in place for six weeks. And, I wouldn't be spending my time talking about why I couldn't do it.

ignorance is bliss isn't it. It must be very satisfying sitting behind your computer spouting off about what is right and wrong with some feet from a couple of pictures. You're gonna sit there and tell me that a 5 year old SL problem isn't going to have it's affects on the feet? You claim that the RH hock issue is due to the bars being too long?? The flare is causing the hock issue?? How about the opposite, the hock is causing distortion of the foot because the limb isn't being used properly??

[jack mac]

Limbs don't become pathological without a reason, and most of the time the reason starts with the foot and the way the horse is forced to use the limb because of the trim and balance, or lack thereof, over time. 'Chronic' injury says it all. Notice that the probable lameness was apparent before the OP divulged it. The RH keeps flaring out because the high bar (about an inch or two below the heel's correct high, weightbearing point) exerts pressure on the wall and pushes it out. That's why it keeps returning even after being addressed. In rehabbing this horse it wouldn't be the barefoot that would do it, but a balanced trim. (And arent' the hinds already BF?) Although, it would be much easier barefoot. I don't envy you shoers who fix the horse's foot in place for six weeks. And, I wouldn't be spending my time talking about why I couldn't do it.sounds to me like your on the Cubans now, hell you will be smoking a pipe next :winkgrin:

[jack mac]

Even if I don't believe everything that is said, it doesn't see like asking hurts. That is where I was coming from anyway.ill tell you whats wrong, poor form, i told you your farrier needs to bring the heels out more because the heels are contract believing he was the one responsible for contracting them :mad: & told you to find another vet believing both the farrier & the vet didn't realise:mad:, only to find out that they knew that all along whats caused the problem & are trying there dam best to rectifier it, it is misrepresenting of the highest level not to show or inform persons your asking advice from, the 2003 before pics, because it tells me that the contraction was server & hooves in a mess & that the feet as they present them self today are a major turn around & a vast improvement on what they were, they still have a little ways to go, but they are heading in the right direction, it is despicable of you, after the effects theses people have put in to help you & your horse, i just hope your poor conduct hasn't lost the hope your horse has of being sound to be ridden again because if your left with the talents of 2003 then you might as well ring uncle chop chop now

[JB]

How about the opposite, the hock is causing distortion of the foot because the limb isn't being used properly??

So this means both hocks have a problem, is that what you are saying?

And yes, that is an honest question.

[JHUshoer20]

ignorance is bliss isn't it. It must be very satisfying sitting behind your computer spouting off about what is right and wrong with some feet from a couple of pictures. You're gonna sit there and tell me that a 5 year old SL problem isn't going to have it's affects on the feet? You claim that the RH hock issue is due to the bars being too long?? The flare is causing the hock issue?? How about the opposite, the hock is causing distortion of the foot because the limb isn't being used properly??
Dave,
That one almost knows enough to be dangerous. Don't even waste your time talking to her:no:
George

[Daydream Believer]

Dave,
That one almost knows enough to be dangerous. Don't even waste your time talking to her:no:
George

I think you've been complimented Lookout. :lol: Seems like you might have a point about those hind feet/hocks. ;)

How long has it been since he was last done?

Perhaps...and this is just a suggestion...if the flare/stretched white line at his RH quarters was addressed more aggressively and brought back to the white line, his hocks might feel better and that might help his suspensory issues?

It is hard to critique someone's work by pics and not knowing how the feet looked to start with and I really don't like to do it at all. I would not appreciate being in AFG's position either. Honestly, the discussion has been cordial up to now. Why start insulting each other just because you disagree with them?

[elctrnc]

Anybody I work for ever does that to me that will be the last they see of me:mad:

Wait, so are you saying that you would stop seeing a client if they asked for opinions on your work??


This thread has certainly been interesting. You have an owner who was looking for opinions, and then you have the current farrier taking offense that she asked for opinions rather than asking him questions directly. What if she posted the question over on Horseshoes.com? Would that have been better? Are those people more qualified to comment, so then it would be okay? As we all know, you have plenty of different opinions on Horseshoes. Maybe she should put NBs back on him. :lol:

Sure, we don't have the whole story. What's that phrase...there are three sides to every story: yours, mine, and the truth. With all of these threads (on here AND horseshoes.com) where you have owners posting pics and farriers (and whomever else) ripping apart the work, wouldn't you (as an owner) wonder if your horse is getting good work?

If the owner wants a second opinion, it is certainly within her right. Maybe she thinks that the horse should be sounder now.

On the other hand, if the farrier group has been working on this horse for an extended period of time and they say the problem is that the horse has hock/injury/whatever problems and, because of that and the poor turnout, isn't going to be "fixed" even with excellent shoeing, why do the farriers bother to continue with the client?

[The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC]

The last thing I'm gonna say about this whole situation is I didn't take offense to my client posting pictures of my work, and asking for advise or a second opinion. However to be fair to me, the vet and even the horse, a proper history also should've been given. Would you take your horse to a second vet for a second opinion and not give them the entire history of the horse? It kind of defeats the purpose.

enough said, I'm sorry it went too far.

Dave

[Rick Burten]

Limbs don't become pathological without a reason, and most of the time the reason starts with the foot and the way the horse is forced to use the limb because of the trim and balance, or lack thereof, over time.
Get real! Limb conformation, injury, compensation for pain elsewhere are MAJOR reasons why there is pathology in the limb and hoof. Yes, incorrect trimming and/or shoeing are also contributors, but not the only ones and not necessarily the major ones. As always, it depends.
'Chronic' injury says it all. Notice that the probable lameness was apparent before the OP divulged it. The RH keeps flaring out because the high bar (about an inch or two below the heel's correct high, weightbearing point) exerts pressure on the wall and pushes it out.
Riiiiight. Can you substantiate your theory?
That's why it keeps returning even after being addressed.
You know this because.....? Could conformation or compensation be playing a role? If not, why not?
In rehabbing this horse it wouldn't be the barefoot that would do it, but a balanced trim.
And based on the information provided, you know the horse is not getting a balanced trim because.....?
Although, it would be much easier barefoot. I don't envy you shoers who fix the horse's foot in place for six weeks.
The hoof capsule , being plastic rather than elastic, is not "fixed" in place. It will still respond to forces exerted on it from both above and below.
And, I wouldn't be spending my time talking about why I couldn't do it.
True. We already know why you couldn't do it, so there is no need for you to brag about it.

[Dianna]

I have to agree with the treating farrier. There isn't a problem with asking for second opinions, but there is a way to provide the complete picture rather than small glimpses of it. All information if valuable.

Second, especially when it comes to feet, there is always the risk of barefoot or never, the horse has flares and they should be removed immediately/always ... there are too many avenues for blanket statements that really can't be made unless you have held the foot .. xrays are a tool they don't truly tell the whole story.

I believe that there are times when feet balance will create soreness issues upward, but, I also believe that hock problems can come from wear and tear with the best farrier work possible.

I am a firm believer (ever the optimist) that many injuries that can't be fixed, can be managed but it takes some real specific/precise management....

For me, if this horse were mine, its butt would be in a controlled environment. It would be stall bound so that leg work could be done. There would be no questions of behavior while the farrier worked ... whether from hand's on schooling or through drugs, or a combination of both.

If the turnout couldn't be provided with sufficient footing for the shoe to stay on, then the horse would be hand walked or ponied ... if I truly wanted a shot at riding the horse again.

There would be a full set of x-rays on the horse's hock because for me, you can't fit either end without dealing with the other .... hock gets sore, front end gets more weight ... front end is bothering you, back end takes the brunt.

You can't fix the SL by farrier work alone, though it can hinder or expedite the progress. YOu can't fit the hock alone, though farrier work too can either help or hurt. The farrier's work simply cannot be picked apart based on photos alone ... especially if the one holding the knife has only completed a few trims and the horse doesn't have the follow up daily care.

There is no problem with the OP's question, just how it was presented and in this forum you can always expect that there will be very specific comments made on how the answering poster would do it and how it ALWAYS works for them.

Always is not a word that should be part of any true horseperson's vocabulary ... unless it is used in the sentence that Nothing is always true when it comes to horse care and/or management. Even if the horse had high heels, contracted tendons and four different angles ... because guess what, there are probably hundreds of horses who had this kind of care that NEVER TOOK A LAME STEP. Then there are the ones that have always been shod text book perfect (either with shoes, the balanced trim, the four-point trim, or whatever) that still become unsound.

I wish the "team" working on this horse the best of luck.... but I think it is time for all of you to sit down, evaluate the situation, explore the changes that may be needed to give this horse a better chance at lasting soundness or at least comfort and execute the plan.

As for some of the posters, I can only say that I am certain that you didn't mean to have the know-it-all tone that was coming across, though I am equally sure that some of the rude, disrespectfull, sarcastic postings came across just as they were supposed to, and that is very sad.

There is no horse person that wakes up and says, gee, what can I do to waste my money, my time and injure my horse today...

[EqTrainer]

The last thing I'm gonna say about this whole situation is I didn't take offense to my client posting pictures of my work, and asking for advise or a second opinion. However to be fair to me, the vet and even the horse, a proper history also should've been given. Would you take your horse to a second vet for a second opinion and not give them the entire history of the horse? It kind of defeats the purpose.

enough said, I'm sorry it went too far.

Dave

I appreciate the time you have taken and the considerations you have taken here.. that is how we all learn. Thank you!

[Rick Burten]

What if she posted the question over on Horseshoes.com? Would that have been better?
Probably would have been better. At least over at horseshoes.com, she'd be dealing with professional farriers with both tenure and experience. And with veterinarians who have a specialized knowledge and information base about equine hooves and limbs.
Are those people more qualified to comment, so then it would be okay?
Generally speaking, Yes to part one of your question and as far as George is concerned, his answer to part 2 of your question has always been, No.
As we all know, you have plenty of different opinions on Horseshoes. Maybe she should put NBs back on him. :lol:
Sounds like a plan. :) Hope that a farrier who is well versed in the protocols is retained to do the work.
Sure, we don't have the whole story. What's that phrase...there are three sides to every story: yours, mine, and the truth. With all of these threads (on here AND horseshoes.com) where you have owners posting pics and farriers (and whomever else) ripping apart the work, wouldn't you (as an owner) wonder if your horse is getting good work?
Sure I would. But lets be fair here. The comments made are made based on the information provided. If those who are commenting are being given an incomplete "picture" then whose fault is it really?
If the owner wants a second opinion, it is certainly within her right. Maybe she thinks that the horse should be sounder now.
Based on what? She has been repeatedly informed that because of the chronic nature of some of this horse's problems, a return to full soundness is unlikely. So, considering the circumstances, to paraphrase A. Einstein, "To ask the same question over and over again and expect different answers, is one definition of insanity..."
On the other hand, if the farrier group has been working on this horse for an extended period of time and they say the problem is that the horse has hock/injury/whatever problems and, because of that and the poor turnout, isn't going to be "fixed" even with excellent shoeing, why do the farriers bother to continue with the client?
Perhaps because they care? Perhaps because they want to give this/any horse the best care and chance for improvement or full remediation, possible? Perhaps because they are gluttons for punishment. Quien sabe?

[elctrnc]

Probably would have been better. At least over at horseshoes.com, she'd be dealing with professional farriers with both tenure and experience. And with veterinarians who have a specialized knowledge and information base about equine hooves and limbs.

But you guys are all over here too. :) Maybe the difference is that you have more barefoot "crazies" over here?

Sounds like a plan. :) Hope that a farrier who is well versed in the protocols is retained to do the work.

Absolutely. But my point is that you are going to get 15 shoeing opinions from 5 different farriers.

Sure I would. But lets be fair here. The comments made are made based on the information provided. If those who are commenting are being given an incomplete "picture" then whose fault is it really?

But this isn't just the case in this instance. This is the case with *everyone* who asks for opinions. Hell, what about all the people commenting on their barefoot trims? There are plenty of opinions on those too. Very few people looking for help say, "look, here are the pics from 12 months ago with X person, here are the x-rays, here are the pics from 4 months ago, here are the follow up x-rays, the vet said this," etc. Should they, absolutely.

Since nobody gets a clear picture from any of these posts, what does the online advice do for anyone? In this case, it has created a touchy situation between the owner and farrier. Most of the time, it probably makes owners confused.

Based on what? She has been repeatedly informed that because of the chronic nature of some of this horse's problems, a return to full soundness is unlikely. So, considering the circumstances, to paraphrase A. Einstein, "To ask the same question over and over again and expect different answers, is one definition of insanity..."

Based on her even asking for an opinion. If you think that your horse is doing great, why would you need to ask? This is just my thinking here, obviously.

Perhaps because they care? Perhaps because they want to give this/any horse the best care and chance for improvement or full remediation, possible? Perhaps because they are gluttons for punishment. Quien sabe?

You have an improbable return to soundness because of, presumably, the owner's inability to change key pieces of the situation to improve the horse's health. I pick the latter. I don't know how you people do it. It must be frustrating.

[Rick Burten]

But you guys are all over here too. :) Maybe the difference is that you have more barefoot "crazies" over here?
May well be.
Absolutely. But my point is that you are going to get 15 shoeing opinions from 5 different farriers.
You mean "options" right?:)
If you think that your horse is doing great, why would you need to ask?
Because some people just can't take "yes" for an answer. :)
You have an improbable return to soundness because of, presumably, the owner's inability to change key pieces of the situation to improve the horse's health. I pick the latter. I don't know how you people do it. It must be frustrating.
More than that, you have pathological changes that have become permanent. In the cascade of events that followed/follows, it is indeed improbable that this horse will return to full soundness.

[Rick Burten]

That's a gas! :lol:
But not the methane version that so often stinks up the forums.
Horseshoes.com is full of sniping, nit picking egos constantly trying to "one-up" somebody.
In many respects, that is true. However, there is always good information provided, and generally, a basic concensus on what is seen and how it should be approached(NBS being the major exception and the cause of most all of the sniping).
In fact it got so bad that the Admin of the board had to initiate a "zero tolerance" policy, and send an email to every board member saying that bad behavior will no longer be tolerated because the board has such a bad reputation now. Well, that's great.
I note for the record, that the problems were occurring between farriers/barefoot trimmers and not directed at the Owners side of the forums. And I also note that the majority of the problems were caused by a very few of the participants, and even then, were only directed at a few of the participants. I admit that the "Farriers" side of the forums does get rough and tumble and is not for the weak minded, weak spirited or those who lack knowledge. However, as noted, the "Owners" side of the forums is most often a "kinder, gentler" place.
Kinder and gentler that is until some Fluff Bunny suffering from TSS, who is also a card carrying member of the Sweetness 'N Light Brigade, enters the fray. :)
I thought it would get better. To a degree it has. But the same old behavior is coming up again. You get a few big fat egos throwing sand in each other's face and you end up with 3 posts of useful info and 14 pages full of fights.
So exercise your absolute right to read only what you want to read and ignore the rest.
You're a Moderator there Rick but funny that you can't seem to get any control over the behavior.
Not true. The warnings have been sent, and appropriate 'punishments' meted out. And that continues to occur. Only the administrator can keep someone from posting. As a moderator, I do my best to keep the vulgarisms and ad hominem out. Am I 100% successful? Nope. Am I occasionally part of the problem? Yep. And I get my comeuppance from the Administrator just like everyone else does.
Many good posts get 1 reply and then fall off the board. Apparently it's because there isn't enough drama contained in the post, so the farriers move on to juicier fights.
Not true. Often one or two replies is all that is necessary to cover the issue. Often, others who might reply read the replies posted and because they agree with them, don't post. Sometimes, questions get unintentionally overlooked or are of such nature that no one is interested in replying. Just as it is everyone's right to read what they want, so is it everyone's right to not reply if they so choose.
I started a thread once asking for detailed descriptions of primary and terminal pappilae and got 3 replies,
Perhaps that was all the replies that were felt necessary. Perhaps no one else was interested in making a reply. Quien sabe?
which still didn't go into the depth that I wanted.
As I don't remember that thread precisely, did you ask follow-up questions or otherwise engage in discussion that would have led to further replies? Regardless, for what ever reason(s), everyone else was disinterested in continuing that dialogue.
But there will be 14 pages of attacks when someone wants to go barefoot with their horse, which ALWAYS dwindles down to name calling, attacking the intelligence of others, snipes about reading comprehension skills, snipes about being grossly uneducated, inadequate, and lacking tenure, and finally total public mockery.
Like I said, the "Farriers/Vets Only" side of the forums is a rough and tumble place and you have to have your facts and wits about you if you are to stand a chance over there. Now Vickey, I know that you often take an unmerciful beating over there, but in fairness, you often bring it upon yourself. Regardless of what you think of your education, to those that are over there, it is somewhat suspect, and you are going to get pilloried about it. Much as Gene Ovnicek and those who apply his protocols, routinely get pilloried. I think that one of the differences is that those who are using the NBS protocols are well able to stand up to the criticism/sniping/whatever, and their knowledge and experience is not called into question. You have a tougher row to hoe.
It seems to me like a lot of the professionals rarely post there. There are maybe 3 vets that I'm aware of that I love reading info from but you have to really dig to find their posts. Believe me, they do NOT post on all the day to day threads. ;)
All the vets and many of the farriers are "occasional" contributors. You'd have to ask them why that is to find out the answer for yourself.

Now, as for me, I have dallied far too long today, so I'm off to do a day full of barefoot trimming and no shoeing.:eek: :)

[Moderator 1]

First off, please keep the discussion on this thread related to the OP. It's fine to discuss other forums available as a resource, but don't let it obscure the main topic of the thread.

Secondly, this thread has been an excellent example of some of the hazards and benefits of posting on a BB. It's easy to provide or get an unclear picture of a situation, intentionally or not, and the quality of advice given or the reaction illicited are a reflection of that potential. All participants in forums such as this need to consider the source of information they're receiving.

Though imperfect, BBs can be a great way to exchange information, opinions and ideas from a broader audience than is available in your tack room or local show. In this case, it ultimately also led hopefully to a more open communication between a horse owner and her horse's care providers.

It hopefully goes without saying that everyone involved would like to see this horse's soundness improve and other readers would appreciate learning from this "case study," so please refocus the discussion on this thread to the horse and hooves in question.

Thanks.

[JHUshoer20]

Wait, so are you saying that you would stop seeing a client if they asked for opinions on your work?? If the situation was identical to this one yes.


This thread has certainly been interesting. You have an owner who was looking for opinions, and then you have the current farrier taking offense that she asked for opinions rather than asking him questions directly. What if she posted the question over on Horseshoes.com? Would that have been better? A little but not much Are those people more qualified to comment, Some yes, some no. Is hit and miss. Take everything on the internet with a grain of salt. so then it would be okay?No As we all know, you have plenty of different opinions on Horseshoes. Maybe she should put NBs back on him. :lol: Don't even go there:eek:

Sure, we don't have the whole story. What's that phrase...there are three sides to every story: yours, mine, and the truth. With all of these threads (on here AND horseshoes.com) where you have owners posting pics and farriers (and whomever else) ripping apart the work, wouldn't you (as an owner) wonder if your horse is getting good work? In this case no.

If the owner wants a second opinion, it is certainly within her right. Maybe she thinks that the horse should be sounder now.
The owner knows better. She deliberately misrepresented the situation in an effort to bring about a response that she wanted to hear.

On the other hand, if the farrier group has been working on this horse for an extended period of time and they say the problem is that the horse has hock/injury/whatever problems and, because of that and the poor turnout, isn't going to be "fixed" even with excellent shoeing, why do the farriers bother to continue with the client?
They'd have to answer that for themselves I'm not privy to that information. Maybe because their in the business of shoeing horses so it's what they do?

What I can say is this. This owner is in the enviable position of having a team of the finest lameness specialist horseshoers in the United States serving her. These guys are known from coast to coast, well respected by their peers, and are the go-to guys for other horseshoers around the country to learn from. Perhaps familiarity breeds contempt or she is too ignorant to know who those guys are. Her lack of basic horsemanship skills makes me lean toward the latter.

I find it as insulting as a slap in the face that this woman would place more weight upon opinions of people on the internet when she has those guys in her employ. Any number of the people on here that constantly complain about their horseshoers lack of ability would gladly trade places with her:yes:
George

[jack mac]

That's a gas! :lol:

Horseshoes.com is full of sniping, nit picking egos constantly trying to "one-up" somebody. In fact it got so bad that the Admin of the board had to initiate a "zero tolerance" policy, and send an email to every board member saying that bad behavior will no longer be tolerated because the board has such a bad reputation now. Well, that's great. I thought it would get better. To a degree it has. But the same old behavior is coming up again. You get a few big fat egos throwing sand in each other's face and you end up with 3 posts of useful info and 14 pages full of fights. You'd think they were a bunch of little girls fighting over a pink barbie doll. :eek:

You're a Moderator there Rick but funny that you can't seem to get any control over the behavior. Many good posts get 1 reply and then fall off the board. Apparently it's because there isn't enough drama contained in the post, so the farriers move on to juicier fights.

I started a thread once asking for detailed descriptions of primary and terminal pappilae and got 3 replies, which still didn't go into the depth that I wanted. But there will be 14 pages of attacks when someone wants to go barefoot with their horse, which ALWAYS dwindles down to name calling, attacking the intelligence of others, snipes about reading comprehension skills, snipes about being grossly uneducated, inadequate, and lacking tenure, and finally total public mockery.

It seems to me like a lot of the professionals rarely post there. There are maybe 3 vets that I'm aware of that I love reading info from but you have to really dig to find their posts. Believe me, they do NOT post on all the day to day threads. ;)i post there when they let me lol, i love the abuse i cop hell over there,but they can call me any insulting thing they like, sure its unpleasant & hurtful at times, but iv got years of catching up to do, at least i can acknowledge the insults rather then being oblivious to the fact people are cruelly laughing at & taking the piss out of you, while your standing unawares your the one there making the sick retarded jokes about, at least on the FF i can dish some back, its something iv never had before the closest iv had to anything like this sort of interaction was rocks thrown at me because it was open season on the deaf dumb kid for the week or a brawl in the pub which i didn't really know what it was about because its was a bit hard to read the blokes lips when he's trying to take my head off my shoulders, i cant wait to get back on there & give as good as i get, put my views across & get some views back, right or wrong its great & i think the verbal sarcastic exchanger is what makes it enjoyable to read, other wise you might as well sit in a chat room talking meaningless perversion to some bimbo on the other side of the world , that's my two bobs worth for what its worth.

[Appassionato]

In attempts to get this thread back on track, ciscolark, what is your next move in order to better help your horse(s)? I realize that isn't an easy question to answer a lot of times, but you've got to start somewhere. Even if it's just the vet coming out again for another evaluation.