Need advice on dealing with a barn issue...

[HoofinAround]

deleted for obvious reasons...

[marta]

you think your horse may be getting tied for 5-6 hours at a time and you don't think that's reason enough to move?!
frick the indoor.
i'd sooner put her in my own backyard (in the middle of urban suburbia in nj) than let that continue.
get your priorities straight.

[HoofinAround]

I believe I clearly stated the only other options were worse... there are horses that lived successfully in straight stalls for years... not that I condone that either, but it's not in fact going to kill her. I do live in town and cannot at this point bring her home, though that is in the works within the next year. I made is pretty clear that at this point moving is NOT an option, constructive help is appreciated, telling me I'm a crap owner is not.. have a nice day.

[Hampton Bay]

Is she tied and unsupervised? That sounds less than safe to me if she is. If she is in a nylon halter, she could slip or pull back, and you risk her breaking her neck or being on the ground with her head tied and no way to get back up. If she is in a leather halter, she could break free and get loose, and if no one is there she could get into trouble and get hurt.

Is an indoor arena really more important? I personally would have my horse out of there in a heartbeat. If the BO is doing this to most of the horses, even if she says she will stop tying yours, she probably is going to keep doing it.

There are ways to discipline a horse for being rude and pushy at feeding time. It DOES NOT involve tying them up for hours at a time. And I would guess that while tied, the horse does not have water available.

Move barns and put your name on the waiting list at one of the nice barns with an indoor. Eventually your name will come up, and in the mean time your horse will be safe.

[marta]

don't worry about it, it's only 5-6 hrs per day, and if she misses a meal she's not going to die?
she's not going to die if she misses a meal. she may also be just fine getting tied 5-6 hrs per day.
but in my book that is outrageous and i'm curious what part of the country has such a shortage of boarding facilities that you just have no other options but to put up with your horse getting mistreated.

my point is that i'd trade an indoor and an outdoor for my horse's happiness.

good luck to you and to your horse.

[katarine]

hoofinaround what do you feel ARE your options? that might get us somewhere.

[HoofinAround]

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[HoofinAround]

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[Dianna]

I would simply speak with the BO/BM and explain that I appreciate all of the wonderful care, but in future, you don't want to find your mare tied anywhere - unattended. I don't agree with her reasoning, she was rude coming in, so she got tied....

If she is rude coming in, punish her in the moment ... if she is rank, then put a stud chain on her, back her up, make her think the sky is falling.

I suspect that will be the end of the discussion.

[katarine]

ok that's simple then.

Sally, I would love to talk with you about Marey getting tied if she's rude about her supper. I respect your ways and that it's your business, so I do wonder if you have suggestions for me, exercises, ground work, etc, that you think would help Marey get the clue about not being pushy about supper? I really love your barn and this one point makes me feel bad for you having to deal with tying her, any suggestions?

It's not nasty, it leaves the door wide open to teaching the mare some better manners (assuming she actually has manner issues), and it doesn't accuse anyone of anything bad. You get what you want- more information and maybe a key to fixing it...if nothing else it opens the dialog.

[veezee]

I'm sorry to hear about your frustrations at your barn. My advice would be to have a nice chat with the barn owner and request that your horse not be tied when you are not there. Keeping a horse tied for that many hours may be their way of "training, however, since your horse is not in their training program I would request that they not do that. A polite conversation should be able to remedy the situation. If it doesn't, then that would bring out my red flags as to what else might be happening around there when you are not around. But hopefully since you are happy with the care otherwise things should go just fine. I wish you luck and hope you are able to resolve your concerns.:yes:

[HoofinAround]

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[katarine]

Hoofinaround I worked in a high end QH barn in high school, and leaving 'em tied for hours and hours and hours was common. No radio in the barn, either. Silence. It was horrible. I don't think it teaches one anything but stressed out & upset followed by resignation if you're lucky. Weaving and ulcers if you're not. Not my cup of tea.

[Cherry]

What I was asking was an opinion on the best way to approach her....
Honestly, I don't think there is a best way.... :no: If someone did that to my horse I would be all over him/her like hair on a gorilla.... :eek: :lol: One of the first rules I ever learned that when working with horses--Do not tie a horse and leave it unsupervised!!!! ;) :yes: That's asking for trouble.....

What this person is doing is nonsensical!!!! :eek: You punish the horse immediately so it knows why it's being punished, and that is that! A horse has the attention span of a lightening bolt and if you reprimand it later the horse doesn't get it and won't learn a thing. Tieing the horse and leaving it like that is just downright cruel in my book....

Do what you want but I wouldn't be too nice to the dimwit that would do that to a horse--any horse.... The people that pass themselves off as horsepeople just astound me.... :eek:

[HoofinAround]

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[katarine]

well there's crazy's everywhere and in every endeavor ;)

you won't change her behavior, I bet you. But if it's 10 min from home...can you bring her in yourself at least some of the time? I have my horses at home but I can honestly say there's not a boarding barn in my area I'd happily move into-so I understand it's not easy to 'just move'. or risk getting kicked out.

Horses can stand tied for hours, unattended, and the world doesn't tip further on its axis. Anyone saying different never went on a packtrip and tied horses overnight on a highline and then went off to bed. It 'can' be done...but it shouldn't be in this instance.

[findeight]

...she's been tied at least 2 1/2 hours. I asked the BO the reasoning after the first time and she said that she had misbehaved when being brought in from the pasture and that feed is a reward so they are tied and feed is withheld. Then she quickly backtracked and said well, they get fed, just not at that time. ...Though her being tied at all is unacceptable to me. What should I do?

Well...witholding food because of bad behavior? Horses can't remember what they did a half a second ago let alone associate misbehaving on the way in with having to wait to eat. I strongly doubt there would be any association with being tied up as punishment for prior bad acts either.

Also do not like the fact the B/O backtracked and changed her story to feeding times.

And the fact this is a Western barn is BS. That has NOTHING to do with this kind of oddball theorizing about feeding scheduals and making them stand tied as punishment. The fact you have the only non stock type horse is meaningless as well, stock types are not normally treated this way either.

If it is your horse and you are paying for a service and you do not want your horse tied to the front of the stall? Tell the BO not to tie the horse to the front of the stall. Just say "I do not want and am not paying for my horse to stand tied half the night for any reason".

You don't want to get told to move but what do you expect us to tell you to do?

I can't believe every single other place is totally unacceptable either.

[gloriginger]

I think the big concern for me, aside from the potential that my horse could flip out and break her neck being tied unsupervised, is that when a barn of horses knows it is feeding time, their stomach juices start flowing in anticipation of the coming food. So for your mare to be tied and not fed when she knows it is feeding time, she could end up with ulcers as a result of this womans "training" methods.

Withholding or delaying food is no way to train a horse. If she is being bargey or rude about coming in the barn, then she/you should work with her on that, but to withhold food is just stupid and cruel and has no value in changing this behavior.

[Buddy1988]

I absolutely do not agree with what the BO is doing whatsoever. However, considering this is not a perfect world and sometimes there really is no other option, here is my thoughts.
You said other horses are being tied, are their owners aware of this? How do they feel about it? Is is possible to speak with the others and rally a group to confront the BO and be able to say we do not want our horses tied under any circumstances? If not can you alone sit the BO down and explain that it is unacceptable to you? If you think it is going to continue no matter what, is it possible to make sure she is tied "safely". On my cross ties I use bailing twine tied in a loop at the wall with the tie attached to that. It breaks pretty easy(the green "rope" twine, not the blue "nylon" type). Would it be possible to do something like that in her stall?
Meanwhile, does she at least have water access during this time out period?

[VCT]

Hi Ms. Barn Manager,
I need to speak with you about my horse being tied to the front of her stall occasionally. I find this unacceptable and I do not want this to continue. It does not state in the board contract that if my horse misbehaves you will perform unsolicited training by tying my horse for hours without access to food or water. If there is a problem with her behavior please let me know what it is so I can work on it. The tying cannot continue, it is a safety risk to my horse and a health risk to my horse. What can we do to make this situation agreeable to us both?

[greysandbays]

One of the first rules I ever learned that when working with horses--Do not tie a horse and leave it unsupervised!!!! ;) :yes: That's asking for trouble.....



Well, one of the first rules I ever learned that when working with horses -- Horses SHOULD ABSOLUTELY be capable of being tied and left unsupervised. A horse that refused to learn this was considered useless for anything but dog food or bear bait.

[SBSM4life]

:eek:That's horrible! What happens if the horse spooks? Or there's some sort of emergency? No I don't agree with that, the horse should stand politely and be able to tie yes but not tied in HER STALL for a long period of time without food or water. Not only is it a major risk but it will only teach her to be more aggersive about food. You're suspose to punish a horse (or any animal) within 5 seconds of the "incidenct". After that, they're already thinking about something else. You need to be polite but FIRM with your BM, tell her you do not fell confrotable with this punishment and want it to stop. Since you only live 10 minutes away, could you feed your horse? It would elinimate the BM having to punish your mare and you could see if/what she is doing to deserve this fate.

[Quiet Riot]

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. The horse has no idea why it's being tied for hours on end.
If your horse is misbehaving, it should be corrected at the time it's happening.
Sorry, if I found my horse tied in front of his stall for hours, I'd be out of there PRONTO!:eek:
I understand your dilemma, so maybe discussing it with the BO could be the solution....it never hurts to try.:D

[eks]

It sounds like the people handling the horses need to take some horsemanship classes on how to do it properly.

Seems a bit odd that 7-8 horses a night all behave so badly when being brought in they deserve to be tied up and not fed. Sounds like the people have other issues and I would not want them taking out their anger on my horse.

[Sithly]

I think you should just have a nice, calm chat with the BM. Getting snotty about their standard of care won't help (not saying you are, but some people come off that way in conversations even when they don't mean to). Ask what alternative solutions she'd accept. You don't need to fly off the handle and leave (yet), since you are happy with the barn in general and your horse is in good shape mentally and physically. There are many different ways to manage a horse, most of which work just fine.

Your BM could be batsh*t crazy and withholding food as a (completely ineffective) "punishment." That's entirely possible. But it's also possible that she doesn't see standing tied as a punishment, but as a way of altering the horse's routine so the anticipation isn't such a problem. If that's the case, maybe you and the BM could work together to improve the mare's manners. Or you could suggest she bring the horse in for hay only and feed the grain afterwards. Most horses don't get pushy about hay.

If the BM is indeed batsh*t crazy, you're probably in for a ride. ;) Good luck.

[sketcher]

My mare is boarded out at a night barn with great turnout and a nice indoor. 99% of the care is excellent. The problem I've having is that I've now found my mare twice tied to the front of her stall late in the evening. The timing I've found it means she's been tied at least 2 1/2 hours. I asked the BO the reasoning after the first time and she said that she had misbehaved when being brought in from the pasture and that feed is a reward so they are tied and feed is withheld. Then she quickly backtracked and said well, they get fed, just not at that time. The owner does work 3rd shift so it's possible she's feeding before she goes to work at 11pm and letting the horses loose (mine is not the only one tied or the most frequently tied.) I just have to wonder if in fact they are getting fed and let loose.. Even if she does loose them before she goes to work that's 5-6hrs tied. I am NOT pleased with this. I know I need to discuss it with her, but I'm not sure how to broach it. Moving is not an option, the barns with indoors around here are full up or far more unacceptable. I think part of the problem lies in the fact that this is a stereotypical western barn. My horse is the only non-stock type horse there. I do have a trainer I work with, but she does not do anything in the winter as she has no indoor. My horse is not starving and has in fact gained weight. I guess I'm ust wondering if she IS in fact missing meals and how often and long she truly is tied. Though her being tied at all is unacceptable to me. What should I do?

Are you able to come at night and bring her in so that you can work on her behavior?

Kudo's to you for not flipping out - others are right, tying your horse for a long period will not kill her. It's actually nice to know you can tie your horse for an extended time. I've tied trail horses for several hours while I picnicked and swam and how many times have you seen a horse tied to the trailer for the afternoon during a horse show?

That being said, I wouldn't be thrilled with the length of time if she is using it for punishment or the fact that she is using it for punishment at all. I can understand not feeding right away so that the food reward does not happen when she misbehaves coming in.

I have always purposely not kept any of my animals on a predictable schedule. They get grained anywhere between 5am and 10am, again anywhere between 4pm and 11pm and hay tossed at random times throughout the day. It almost always eliminates ALL the behaviors at feeding time and anxiety on those times when I may be running late.

[findeight]

I am concerned that the amount of time the horse may be standing tied may be more then the OP knows. Not a thing harmful about being tied but the reasons given for it are flaky at best and alarming at worst.

Witholding the water, especially, for several hours after coming in from grazing could create problems.

Whole thing is kind of bizarre.

[gabz]

I'm with sketcher on the "irregular" schedule ... I use a 2 hour window though ... (between 7 - 9 am and then 12 hours later within a 2-hour window.

So, if the scenario is, the horses come back to their stalls and are fresh and banging around, she ties the horse, inside the stall? Is this to make them NOT WANT to go into their stalls?

Or, is the horse running over her to get back to the stall and she ties the horse for the same reason?

If it's the second scenario .. and you need to ask exactly what it is your horse does, so that you can fix it - then you need to work this out so that you are there when the horses are brought in for feeding so that YOU can help the horse learn appropriate behavior and keep the BO from tying her.

But... you will need to nicely approach the BO and ask how you can help fix the problem as it bothers you to see your horse tied like that.

I camp and trail ride with my horse. He gets tied on a picket line for hours and hours. I offer him water and when he is supervised, he has a bucket of water. but I usually pull it away at night so that he doesn't get a foot in it or more scary - bewteen the handle and the bucket. AND... when my horse is hauled - even though I stop every 3 -4 hours, I offer him water and he RARELY drinks any. Horses are quite capable of "tanking up" ...

I hope this helps ease your mind and I hope you can work out a solution with the BO. Maybe your horse and 1 other can be left out a little later and you can go bring them in and feed them (don't leave your mare out by herself!!! )

Horses learn that when they get into their stalls, hay and grain arrive. It's magic to them. "Go in the stall, get grain. yum" ... if it doesn't come within X minutes, they will start banging walls and doors and then PRESTO.. look!! we banged on the doors and walls and pitched a fit and the FOOD arrived.

[kbbarn]

The main issue for me would be that the BO has no concept of horse training. A horse being tied up at feeding time will not make the connection that they are being punished for bad behavior. This is horse, not a human. Horse will not make the connection. To assume that this is how to train a pushy horse during feeding time is just dumb. The BO should not own a barn if this is how he/she thinks to train an animal. Do not use human psychology. Will not work. Need to use horse psychology if training it to occur.

And that is what I would tell the barn owner. "No training is occurring by tying the horse up during feeding. Rather Mrs. BO, you are stressing my horse. Stress = ulcers. Do not tie her up or use these 'training' methods".

Grumpy horse at feeding needs to be trained via human grumping back immediately. Human goes into alpha mare mode and does not allow horse to invade human space until horse becomes more pleasant. That is the language the horse will understand. Not being tied up. That is poor horsemanship and will go no-where.

[arena run]

Sally, I would love to talk with you about Marey getting tied if she's rude about her supper. I respect your ways and that it's your business, so I do wonder if you have suggestions for me, exercises, ground work, etc, that you think would help Marey get the clue about not being pushy about supper? I really love your barn and this one point makes me feel bad for you having to deal with tying her, any suggestions?

It's not nasty, it leaves the door wide open to teaching the mare some better manners (assuming she actually has manner issues), and it doesn't accuse anyone of anything bad. You get what you want- more information and maybe a key to fixing it...if nothing else it opens the dialog.


Don't know why anyone bothered to post after this one aired. Imo, this is the perfect solution to start with.



Just for the record... I tie my horses for hours and hours and hours. And I leave them 'unsupervised' in that I'll be off in one part of the yard working w/one and several others tied out in various other parts of the yard. OR I'll go in to eat or pee or whatever and leave everyone tied out in the yard.

After working w/them I offer water and on really hot days I take the time to offer water before working and after working them.

If it's a new horse or young horse I do supervise the tie time until they 'get it'. It does not kill the horse to be tied for hours.

HOWEVER>>>> there is no reason I would ever tie TO A STALL unless the horse were really tie-broke and tied INSIDE the stall. I'm understanding this mare was tied OUTSIDE the stall. *shking head* not good, imo.

I also would like to submit the fact that for some horses the only food they get is what's in their stall. Witholding that food is, at best, criminal. For other horses the 'food time' is simply a supplemental graining and it won't kill them (I promise) to miss that type of feed time. :) sylvia

[enjoytheride]

It is a very "western" thing to do which is why many of the people on this BB are shocked. It comes from tying halter horses as weanlings to teach them to stand and while you sweat their necks. The idea your BM has is that horses can connect one thing with another and associate being bad with being tied.

I did board at a western barn and they tied horses all the time, sometimes even overnight. I personally don't think it does the horse any good and they don't learn from that. The only thing it does is teaches patience (which is why all the western people can go to 3 day shows and tie their horses to the trailer the entire time!) But it will not kill your horse.

If you are upset and your BM is unwilling to change then you may have to move, also keep a look out for other things.

[LookinSouth]

It is a very "western" thing to do which is why many of the people on this BB are shocked. It comes from tying halter horses as weanlings to teach them to stand and while you sweat their necks. The idea your BM has is that horses can connect one thing with another and associate being bad with being tied.

I did board at a western barn and they tied horses all the time, sometimes even overnight. I personally don't think it does the horse any good and they don't learn from that. The only thing it does is teaches patience (which is why all the western people can go to 3 day shows and tie their horses to the trailer the entire time!) But it will not kill your horse.

If you are upset and your BM is unwilling to change then you may have to move, also keep a look out for other things.

Yup. common practice in the western world. Do I agree with this practice? Nope, but I wouldn't say it's criminal if the horse is TRAINED to tie.

When I used to take my horse to fun gymkanas etc.. I used to be one of the very few people who had my horse attached to my side the entire time. Nearly every single horse there would be tied to the trailer while their owners went gallavanting around and just grabbed their horse for their runs. You'll rarely see horses tied to trailers for 5-6 hours unsupervised at H/J shows though, or any english show for that matter.

[Calena]

I like the 'Dear Sally' approach also. As a longtime boarder, I understand how difficult it can be when other people are handling your horse in ways you don't approve of. When I've been confronted with situations such as these, I've always stepped up with a polite reminder that I am not paying the BO to train my horse and haven't given them authority to do so. But my mare's manners while others work around/with her are MY responsibility. If my horse is putting anyone else at risk during routine care, I have to step up to correct the problem.

I don't know if you want to mention this to her, but if she does this repeatedly with the same horses, it obviously isn't working to teach the horses to behave while being led in. Which sort of destroys her justification for doing it.

The big question is whether the BO is willing to work with you. If she isn't, your options appear to be live with whatever the BO chooses to do or request that your mare not be turned out. And of course get out as quick as possible.

I hope you can work it out with the BO. That would be the best option.

[flshgordon]

If it were me....the conversation would go something like this:

Ms Barn Manager---WTF do you think my horse (or any horse) is learning about misbehaving at feed time from being tied up for 5-6 hours? Seriously? You must be as dumb as a rock...or dirt...or insert other inanimate object.

OK seriously now. Maybe I wouldn't be quite that harsh, but I would have to really try hard not to be.

There is a lot of stuff that my barn does that makes my toes curl, but this takes the cake. And if the BM is actually dumb enough to think this is going to alter the behavior of a horse, then I'd have a serious talk with her and figure out how to open my own boarding facility since there isn't a suitable one in the area.

[lelevic]

If it were me....the conversation would go something like this:

Ms Barn Manager---WTF do you think my horse (or any horse) is learning about misbehaving at feed time from being tied up for 5-6 hours? Seriously? You must be as dumb as a rock...or dirt...or insert other inanimate object.

OK seriously now. Maybe I wouldn't be quite that harsh, but I would have to really try hard not to be.

Yeah, my sentiments exactly! I would monkey out on them, even if the horse "misbehaved", there is NOTHING that horse is learning by being tied for HOURS...

Plus, is the BO going to pay your vet bill if your horse does flip out during one of these marathon tie sessions and gets hurt???? I have a life-sized picture of how that would go down... I'm sorry, I don't care if this is a "western thing" or not, that is not something I want done with my horses. Very irresponsible!!

[Lucassb]

First of all, let me offer my sympathies. It is not easy to be stuck in a place that concerns you with no better alternatives in sight. Ask me how I know this... :no:

To all those who snarked at the OP and suggested putting the horse in the backyard, or implied that the OP was putting her wants ahead of the horse's welfare, (blahblahblah) ... try a reality check. A lot of us don't have backyards to PUT the horses in and have to make the best of imperfect boarding options. It doesn't mean we are bad horsemen or that we don't care about the horse's well being. It means we live in the real world and have to do the best we can with limited options. The perfect boarding barn does not exist, and in some places, even finding acceptable boarding barns is more difficult than you might believe.

Anyway.

I agree with approaching the barn manager and asking for her suggestions - it is non confrontational and those of us living in the real world understand that getting into an accusatory situation with the BM isn't an option here, because you can't risk being asked to leave. You definitely need to understand the behavior your mare is offering that is causing the BM to want to leave her tied, so you can address it. If you can prevent the behavior, addressing the tying is less of a concern, obviously.

[ThatIrishTemper]

It's nice to know some of you are VERY politically correct when it comes to your horses care.

If I walked into a barn, and found my horse tied to it's stall, unsupervised, I would untie and be walking WITH MY HORSE to my BO's door, and banging on it. If he pooped on her lawn, I'd reward him with even MORE food.

Maybe not that extreme, but I'd have untied my horse while already dialing a phone number to COMPLAIN. Not discuss, but complain. And I board, and rarely ever complain. I would flat out tell her it was not to be done with my animals, which I have the right to say.

Are you paying for training or boarding? I also wouldn't give a person that does this the freedom to "correct" any leading problems she may encounter while working with my horse. I'd leave a dry-erase board on the front of my stall and welcome her to leave me notes on what needs to be worked on.

[aspenlucas]

Amen to that! I agree the mare should not be tied in this instance but horses can be tied. My favorite is at the horse shows when people have to hold their horses all day or pay for a stall when you are only there for a few hours because your horse can't tie. We breed CB crosses and hunter ponies and even the 20K hunter pony foals learn how to tie and stand. My gift to the buyer. Maria

[QUOTE=
Horses can stand tied for hours, unattended, and the world doesn't tip further on its axis. Anyone saying different never went on a packtrip and tied horses overnight on a highline and then went off to bed. It 'can' be done...but it shouldn't be in this instance.[/QUOTE]

[JackSprats Mom]

Personally I think the answer is simple.

Explain to BO that for safety reasons you do not want the horse left tied up and that if there is a training issue with the horse coming in you are more then willing to discuss methods of resolving the issue and you will work with your horse to correct any problems.

BTW did she tell you what the problem was? Thats an awful lot of badly behaved horses in one barn.

[babygreenqueen]

have you personally witnessed this "bad behavior when coming in from pasture" that warrants such punishment?
if i ever saw my horse tied like this i would be gone in about 2 seconds.
dont you wonder WHAT ELSE she is doing to your 'poor' ly behaved horse when you are NOT around???
you said your trainer has a place but no indoor. gee its a hard choice.......no
indoor vs abused horse.

[greysandbays]

Are we even sure the BM does think this tying is actually "training" instead of just avoiding an issue so she doesn't HAVE to "train"?

Pushy/agressive/rude horses need their issue addressed EVERY SINGLE TIME it crops up, not just when mommy shows up now and then (and yes, an hour ever day is just "now and then" when dealing with this sort of thing that crops up many, many times over the course of the day) to "train". BM can circumvent that need to deal with the issue EVERY SINGLE TIME by just tying the horse up out of the way and avoiding the issue istead of doing the "training" to fix it.

[pandorasboxx]

I would have spoken to the BO immediately while trying to quell the steam coming out of my nostrils. I don't care what whacked out cracker training flies in that neck o' the woods but she'd be lucky not to have this "mommy's" size 7.5's lodged where the sun doesn't shine.

As a professional, she should act like one and 1) discipline the horse immediately after the bargy behaviour and in an acceptable manner THAT THE HORSE UNDERSTANDS and 2) bring up the mare's behaviour issues immediately with the owner. Excusing this ineffectual and inefficient training method is the height of asininity.

This isn't the time for mealy mouthed, hat in hand "mother may I" timidity. Otherwise you just set yourself up for doormat of the week if you don't make it abundantly clear that you are angry, find these methods completely unacceptable and that they are not to do this ever again.

[marta]

To all those who snarked at the OP and suggested putting the horse in the backyard, or implied that the OP was putting her wants ahead of the horse's welfare, (blahblahblah) ... try a reality check. A lot of us don't have backyards to PUT the horses in and have to make the best of imperfect boarding options. It doesn't mean we are bad horsemen or that we don't care about the horse's well being. It means we live in the real world and have to do the best we can with limited options. The perfect boarding barn does not exist, and in some places, even finding acceptable boarding barns is more difficult than you might believe.



i understand that dig is directed at me. so maybe go back and re-read my post. my comment re moving my mare to my very urban suburban nj backyard was to underline how far i'd go in removing her far away from that BO and her training techniques. i'd have the cops here in a heartbeat if i did that. i DON'T have a yard to put my mare in. however, i'd find some place to move her to in order to get her out of THAT barn.

[HoofinAround]

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[Jasper'sMom]

Just agreeing with many others. I think the issue here is not tying, it's (1) the possible lack of food/water, or more likely, irregular access to food, which could certainly lead to ulcers or colic, (2) possibly tying in an unsafe manner, i.e. to a metal stall door without supervision, (3) attempting this as a behavior modification system, which clearly won't work. No way will mare connect being tied to any poor behavior on the way to the stall and (4) doing it without your knowledge and consent.

I agree that you should have a long talk with the BO about your expectations for your horse. If the horse's behavior has been unacceptable, you need to know what exactly is going on and you need to work out a solution with the BO and anybody else who will handle your horse.

Just a little story - some years ago I was a boarding a horse when he had a minor injury and the vet suggested isolating from the herd for awhile. About 3 weeks into his separation time, I noticed my usually laid back guy was behaving erratically - acting headshy, refusing to load, very unhappy, etc. A casual conversation with a barn worker revealed that the BO had been beating the c**p out of my horse to get him into a round pen where he was isolated from the herd. He was rearing up, striking out, etc. No one said a word to me about it - I would certainly have worked with the BO to come up with a very different solution had someone just informed me about the situation. Instead, I ended up with a very unhappy horse and was lucky that nothing worse happened to him, me, the BO or anyone else handling him. I moved him to a new situation a couple weeks later.

The bottom line is that as a boarder you need to know what's going on with your horse and you need to be comfortable with the situation. If the BO is using methods that you think are unsafe for your horse, you need to make sure they stop or move somewhere else.

Good luck, I know it can be tough to find a good boarding situation.

[Sithly]

It is a very "western" thing to do which is why many of the people on this BB are shocked. It comes from tying halter horses as weanlings to teach them to stand and while you sweat their necks.

Actually, I think it comes from the fact that there are many times when working western horses need to be left tied for hours, unsupervised, in the course of their jobs. The ability to stand tied (or hobbled) is vitally important for them, and they train for it from the beginning. Done correctly, it is very safe. Done incorrectly with an unforgiving horse, it can be disastrous.

But you're right, it is a very "western" thing to do. I ride both disciplines, and I was surprised when I pulled up at my first english show and saw a parking lot full of empty trailers -- no horses in sight. :lol: Got up to the facility and saw that they were all either in stalls or dragging their owners around the grounds by their fancy leather leads. :lol: Bit of a culture shock. The show was a blast, though!

[chizmom]

I have encountered 3 barn owners in my very small area, who tie their own and their boarding horses in the stalls all day while they are away from the farm at work. All three were involved in training and showing in the same style of riding. When I asked about this ,in my opinion very dangerous, tying I was told that it was to teach the horses patience.:confused::eek::confused:These barns were always immaculate and I think that was what this was about. It is alot easier to muck out a stall if the horse poops and pees in one small area, than if it walks around the whole stall while you are at work, and poops and pees all over and then grinds it in. That way when you come home from work, you can feed and turn everyone out and be able to clean your stalls in record time. You'd also save on bedding. This made more sense to me than the nonsense about punishing the horse for rude behavior or teaching the horse to be patient.:no::(:mad:

[fourmares]

Leaving horses tied for hours is a normal behavior in western barns. Since generally western horses are pretty darned well behaved I wouldn't make a huge issue out of it. I would probably ask how long she stays tied and when she gets her dinner, but since the care is otherwise good leave well enough alone and look on the brightside, your horses is getting trained to be patient and you will never have to worry about leaving her tied to the trailer at a horse show.

[yellow-horse]

i think for some people this is pretty commen, it's actually not a bad thing to teach your horse but when teaching tying for long periods of time, you do it under supervision and gradually, some folks tie them up and let them fight it out until they give up but that's kinda dangerous, it does come in handy to have a horse you can leave tied for hours, i unexpectedly wound up with a horse and nowhere to put it and had to take my one mare who had been a driving horse and used to being tied for hours and tie her up in the barn aisle until i could get the shed ready for the additional horse

i used to work at a place that had their school horses tied to the walls in straight stalls 24/7, they only got out for lessons, not something i would do, but most of the horses adapted, there were a few who didn't and more than one wound up killing itself or casting itself in a frantic struggle, this was an english riding lesson barn hunter jumper mostly

anyway, i would have a polite talk with this person, we're not all from the same school of horsemanship, this lady has probably been tying horses for years and thinks it's a part of what a horse has to learn, i would ask her what else can be done about your horses behavior as you prefer she doesn't tie her for long periods, she may say my barn, my rules so unless you are ready to move right now i don't think i'd get too huffy

i also work strange hours, my horses are on the oddest schedule, they get fed at 1 am, 8am and 5pm

[JustJump]

What you describe is a misguided training method based on faulty logic.

There is no WAY I would tolerate the use of any training method I do not agree with on my horse, and this is one of them.

However, I am not a western trainer, many of whom are accustomed to treating horses like "stock," and who probably think many of my methods are too indulgent.

The BO sounds like her ways are likely to be set in stone. If it were my horse, I'd be ruling the place out as a boarding option, indoor or no indoor.

The dead of winter is a poor time to be starting horses under saddle in areas where the weather can't be counted on. Turnout board is not a bad option at all, especially if you can find decent quality care at a good price. Saving money at this time of year will allow you to go someplace more expensive (but worth it) when it's time to go back to work in April or May.

[royal militron]

I do sympathize w/you, and understand you're on the waiting list to get into another barn. But, if I ever found my horse tied for the reasons you where stating I would go ballistic!!! I understand that is probably a very immature thing to do, and it wouldn't get me very far. With that said, I'd still of gone ballistic!!! I would bring my horse in from now on, if I could make it there 4 days out of the week, I would have hubby/friend/fellow boarder do it for me.

Of course I would have a discussion w/the BO, see what she says to the request of no tying. But, I doubt she will change. So until I found a new situation to put my horse in, my eyes would be there all the time- watching what was going on. I can't imagine if something spooked her, or she didnt' feel good and wanted to roll... I just can't imagine... Makes me very sad for the horses....

[HoofinAround]

...

[LookinSouth]

I agree with approaching the barn manager and asking for her suggestions - it is non confrontational and those of us living in the real world understand that getting into an accusatory situation with the BM isn't an option here, because you can't risk being asked to leave. You definitely need to understand the behavior your mare is offering that is causing the BM to want to leave her tied, so you can address it. If you can prevent the behavior, addressing the tying is less of a concern, obviously.

The above suggestion will help the BO and Boarder to understand the concerns of both sides, great advice.

I'd also like to add that usually Western type barns have much higher standards when it comes to ground manners etc.. What is acceptable ground manners when leading/feeding at most English barns I've been at would absolutely NOT fly at a Western barn. It is very likely that your horse may not have bad ground manners/behavior for the average English barn but at this barn the ground manners are not acceptable.

Attempting to find some sort of middle ground with this BO that does not involve implementing training techniques you disagree with on YOUR horse is probably your best bet until other boarding options pop up.

[grayarabpony]

Sorry, I haven't read everything, but has the BO tried a chain over the nose? It's not up to her to train the horse anyway, but a chain would give her the leverage when she needs it.

If the horse is misbehaving while being led, the horse needs to be disciplined right then and there. The horse isn't learning anything from being tied.

[HoofinAround]

...

[thumbsontop]

I hope you get this resolved soon. I'd feel much more comfortable taking my horse to a small private barn with available space for the short term...one that properly handles their horses. I can promise you that the fact that you "walked in on it" indicates to me that her treatment is likely below par more often than you know.

Good luck!

[BoomerButt]

Wow! Well first off I am a western pleasure rider and I have never boarded at a barn that would tie my horse and leave it there. The way that I and my trainer have always dealt with bad manners coming in is to make the horse stop, return to the field and walk in nicely, once the horse does this, they are let in to eat. Tieing them in the stall and LEAVING is just plain dangerous!!!!!!! Completely unacceptable in my book. The only reason my trainer would ever "tie" a horse in the stall was when it was in training and the horse refused to bend - she would tie the horse around and leave it in its stall for about 30 minutes. Now I dont agree with that either, but to each there own. Sometimes I think barn owners/managers think that because they own the barn, they have the right to do stupid stuff to your horses. I used to own a boarding facility and never once had to tie a horse to a stall. Theres no point. It teaches them nothing, in my opinion. Take them out, make them do whatever it was that you think is wrong over again until its right and then reward them by letting them have their dinner. I just dont understand people sometimes. Maybe I am just not into what some people would call "proper training", but that to me is just wrong. The horse doesnt learn anything. Sorry. Apparently I am all fired up about this. Talk to you BO and tell her that you dont want that type of treatment going on with your horse. If she is doing something wrong, they need to either address the situation or tell you about it, but the next time you walk in and find your horse tied to thier stall, it wont be pretty! (told you I was fired up! :) )

[Nikki17]

Well, one of the first rules I ever learned that when working with horses -- Horses SHOULD ABSOLUTELY be capable of being tied and left unsupervised. A horse that refused to learn this was considered useless for anything but dog food or bear bait.

Where the heck are you from? That is the craziest thing I have ever heard.

[Old Jr. Hunter]

Let me guess: It's a QH trainer.

I have heard of this only from a QH person. Yeah, let's train with isolation, depravation, degradation. That'll teach 'em!

OK, I know they're not all like that but I know a few who are.

Also, by the time the horse is in a stall he has forgotten he was bad.

[Mozart]

I would be less worried about the horse being tied for a while than with the fact that someone is looking after my horse that actually thinks this is an appropriate way to train a horse that misbehaves coming in from turnout. It just calls their judgement as a whole into question (IMO).

It makes you wonder what other "theories" they have. Sorry, but I wouldn't be there.

[LookinSouth]

Where the heck are you from? That is the craziest thing I have ever heard.


Actually it's not crazy at all. Back before the days of cross ties or horses as luxuries it was a NECCESSITY for horses to stand tied at hitching posts etc..

When I first got my TBX he had clearly never been tied other than in cross ties. He had to be retrained to tie at a hitching post since the barn I was at didn't have cross ties. It took time and patience but now I can leave him tied outside and run in the house (which is only 50 feet from the hitching posts and in earshot) if I need to grab carrots, a towel, first aid etc.. and he will stand tied quietly. I always use a quick release knot tied loosely and I never leave him there unsupervised for more than a minute. I don't use tying as a punishment but I do think that training a horse to stand tied quietly IS important.

[LookinSouth]

I would be less worried about the horse being tied for a while than with the fact that someone is looking after my horse that actually thinks this is an appropriate way to train a horse that misbehaves coming in from turnout. It just calls their judgement as a whole into question (IMO).

.


I agree.

[Acertainsmile]

I agree on this not being a proper form of punishment...and personally I never leave my horses tied without supervision... or at least in the barn so I can hear if someone is having a problem...

I would not be tempted to check on your horse at 11:30 pm... I would just DO it!

[Thomas_1]

First off its not effective discipline.

The horse doesn't have the wit or capacity to equate being tied with its act.

Discipline with a horse should always be immediate and swift.

Secondly, whilst all horses should of course stand tied and behave, its totally unacceptable to leave them unattended whilst tied. And by unattended I mean out of sight and/or earshot.

In addition to some of the suggestions you might want to ask the proprietor:

How does the horse know being tied is an act of discipline?

If it works as an act of discipline, then why are you having to keep repeating it?

What else have you tried?

How do you ensure the safety of the horses when they're tied and out of sight?

How often are you checking on the tied horses?

What happens if there was a freak accident whilst my horse is tied? Are you insured for that?

[LookinSouth]

What happens if there was a freak accident whilst my horse is tied? Are you insured for that?


This is a darn good question.

[mtngirl]

Some of the previous suggestions on how to approach the BO are excellent. Voicing your concerns in a calm manner will most likely go much further towards a solution than blowing up.

It does sound as if this BO is probably very much set in her ways. You have said that the mare is tied in her stall using a safety knot, and within reach of water. At least that is a plus to the way some might do it.

I am assuming here that the BO uses your equipment. Even though you have stated that you will only use a leather halter, I would take it one step further, just for safety reasons, and use a leather halter that has a "safety fuse" on top that can break away. It doesn't sound as if your mare is one who rears or pulls back when being tied, but until you get the situation of being tied and not supervised resolved, it wouldn't hurt to have that extra feature.

[Fairview Horse Center]

First off its not effective discipline.

The horse doesn't have the wit or capacity to equate being tied with its act.

Discipline with a horse should always be immediate and swift.

Secondly, whilst all horses should of course stand tied and behave, its totally unacceptable to leave them unattended whilst tied. And by unattended I mean out of sight and/or earshot.

In addition to some of the suggestions you might want to ask the proprietor:

How does the horse know being tied is an act of discipline?

If it works as an act of discipline, then why are you having to keep repeating it?

What else have you tried?

How do you ensure the safety of the horses when they're tied and out of sight?

How often are you checking on the tied horses?

What happens if there was a freak accident whilst my horse is tied? Are you insured for that?

Absolutely! Talk to the barn manager (or email her so she can think about it) and tell her you are concerned about injury to your horse if tied, and you don't want her tied at all unless someone is standing there constantly watching her. Ask her specifically the last of those questions, "What happens if there was a freak accident whilst my horse is tied? Are you insured for that?" Emailing, or leaving a voice mail or written message will allow the barn manager to not blurt an emotional answer, but to have time to think about the liability. Putting it in an email will also leave a proven written instruction of not tying your horse. That will make the liability issue clear.

[Chief2]

HoofinRound, I used to get complaints about some of the geldings we have owned. One used to run away from being caught, and another was bargey at the gate. With me he was fine. With the staff he was a problem. What I would do was go to the barn at the time the horses were taken in, and let them catch the horse or bring him in while I watched the behavior. Then I could strategize the correction and put it into place with the horse and the workers. In some instances, where I could see that there was an aggressive personality inciting the horse to fear and rebellion, I stepped in and brought the horse in myself so he wouldn't go backwards in his handling. In others, I would step in after he was in the stall, and take him back out to the trouble area for some correction.

Since you are only 10 minutes away from the barn, you are in the ideal position to take care of this, without committing full time to doing their work for them (bringing in the horse).

I would ask the BO what time she will be bringing in the horses, take a cup of coffee with you and go watch how the show goes down without stepping in. Let her get the horse all the way into the stall so you can see how they relate to each other and what exactly is triggering the stall tying. Do not put down your coffee until they are done, or she may very well abandon ship and hand the horse over to you halfway through the problem. Force yourself to sit it out. If it is a leading problem, you are then in the perfect position to take the horse back out to where it started and correct the behavior several times, all the way into the stall. If it is a catching problem, you can devise a way for it to be easier for the BO to get the job done. Either way, make sure the BO is aware by your daily physical presence that you are indeed interested in working on the problem, and let her know that you would prefer to deal with it through active training rather than through stall tying. And then get in there and get it done. Be prepared to have to do a few tune-up sessions now and then as well.

That's JMHO. Sometimes the problem is simply a personality schism between the handler and the horse.With some planning and work by you, that sometimes can be mitigated. Good luck with your horse.

[HoofinAround]

...

[kookicat]

Well.. the situation has changed. I stopped at the barn at 12:30am tonight and she was hooked to the tie/chain in the stall. NOT in reach of water and obviously tied up for the night. I unhooked her and whipped out of there in a hurry. I will be going there to talk to her face to face tomorrow afternoon. My mare will be outside all day so she will be safe. This will change and NOT be done anymore effective immediately or I will leave asap. I have a friend who I can probably take her to, she's an hour away, but she'd be safe there till I found her a spot elsewhere. I am so beyond pi$$ed.. on the phone with my hubby about it now. I wonder if this would be considered cruelty if I reported her. I know when you watch that animal precinct they have to have access to clean, fresh water. These horses that are tied do NOT have that.

Oh, wow. That SUCKS.

Good luck talking to the BO- I would put it in writing that she's not to tie the horse and get her to sign it.

Please let us know how it goes.

[pandorasboxx]

Well.. the situation has changed. I stopped at the barn at 12:30am tonight and she was hooked to the tie/chain in the stall. NOT in reach of water and obviously tied up for the night. I unhooked her and whipped out of there in a hurry. I will be going there to talk to her face to face tomorrow afternoon. My mare will be outside all day so she will be safe. This will change and NOT be done anymore effective immediately or I will leave asap. I have a friend who I can probably take her to, she's an hour away, but she'd be safe there till I found her a spot elsewhere. I am so beyond pi$$ed.. on the phone with my hubby about it now. I wonder if this would be considered cruelty if I reported her. I know when you watch that animal precinct they have to have access to clean, fresh water. These horses that are tied do NOT have that.

Obviously this person is very dishonest and incompetent to boot. There is NO problem that warrants this type of horse keeping. I don't blame you for being furious. Good Luck. I anticipate alot of prevarication and backtracking on her part.

[Dianna]

Does this person actually own the barn or are they running it?

In my youth I probably would have went visiting that evening and the reality is, if you have a boarding contract and even if you don't, they can't throw you out because you get upset with them.

I am so sorry that you are going through this, but I wonder if this is only the tip of the iceberg with regard to things going on when you and other owners aren't there.

I have many friends that do reining and working cow horse and feel that many of the horses I see (and these are people that compete at World and the Sun Circuit) have no "self" left and aren't allowed to have any opinion or personality. Now, I know my friend loves her horse, but, she seems to have fallen into the belief that there is horse training and then there is "kotex horse training" ... it is like she was brainwashed by the trainer.

While there are many things I have seen in all areas of the horse world that make me wonder how that owner/trainer sleeps at night, I have to say that the practice your BO is using is one of domination and spirit breaking ... not training.

I would definitely report her to the Better Business Bureau (though most horse people don't think to use this tool). Honestly, I don't think this boarders on any legal concept of abuse, but, I would definitely write an article for the local horse publication (not naming names) of your experience warning people to visit at all hours to check on their horse.

Yes, working western horses often times have to stand tied. Yes, many show people need to tie their horses because they either can get a day stall or won't get a day stall. But this is at a show for a specified period of time with other van and horses around to see and smell.

Standing tied is important on various levels ... but standing tied up overnight or for extended periods of time is used for one reason and one reason only - to break the spirit, not teach patience. Patience cannot be taught ...

[HoofinAround]

...

[Nikki17]

Well.. the situation has changed. I stopped at the barn at 12:30am tonight and she was hooked to the tie/chain in the stall. NOT in reach of water and obviously tied up for the night. I unhooked her and whipped out of there in a hurry. I will be going there to talk to her face to face tomorrow afternoon. My mare will be outside all day so she will be safe. This will change and NOT be done anymore effective immediately or I will leave asap. I have a friend who I can probably take her to, she's an hour away, but she'd be safe there till I found her a spot elsewhere. I am so beyond pi$$ed.. on the phone with my hubby about it now. I wonder if this would be considered cruelty if I reported her. I know when you watch that animal precinct they have to have access to clean, fresh water. These horses that are tied do NOT have that.

Wow, I'm sorry you had to witness that..poor horse:no: It doesn't surprise me however from your initial post. It just didn't sound right. I'm glad you have some alternatives, b/c if this person is willing to tie a horse up all night, what else will/is she doing. I would not trust her, therefore, I really don't think you have any other option but to leave.

[goeslikestink]

Yes this is the barn owner/"trainer" doing this. I do not believe in "breaking" horses and personally like my horse special personality and spirit. I agree that this is likely just a bit of what's been going on.

I just talked to my farrier and trainer (farrier's wife) and they have a couple suggestions for me. they're going to get back to me with phone numbers shortly. the thing around here is so many barns exist that you never know are there. I totally trust both their judgements. They were so disgusted by this :( I feel so bad.. feel like I let my poor mare down so much. I wish there was a better way to see what actually goes on in stables. I'm gonna start checking references or something. We just need to get moved then it will never be an issue again.

some trianer they are-------- mate a good trianer top priority is safety--
for the you and the horse in question

a good livery yard or riding school top priority is safety--
comes under health and safety act
horses come under animal rights act

years ago and some cases still horses are tied -- as they have stalls but the liead rope is passed through a ring with a weight on the bottom so it cannot come pass the ring from the bottom up- the army still have stall like it -- but they also have chains across the entrance so the horse can turn round when not tied up

in london there are many places with stalls rather than stables --i know as i come from london and one of robs aunties did have a listed building with stables underneath was an old
coach house-- but they have mangers on the front of stall for food and hay and water
with a ring in the middle ahorse is fine if the rope is at the right lenght and is fine if it can reach all feedstuffs-- there is a difference between being tied for a stall or being tied short and left--
a riding school i know also had these types of school but in all the occassions i have seen in use there is always plenty of bods to check said animals
but a trianer tieing a horse up for behaving wrongly isnt going to teach that horse to behave
as horses dont think like humans

for exsample kids fight ok so you get the kid home and as nowadays cant smack them as much as in my days the object is to take something away when bad-- ie computer or tv
thats ok for a human

but for a horse it doesnt think the same way as you cant reason with ahorse as you can with a human mind

so-- what to do-- or should do-- educate the horse and teach it to stand and behave
this can be done via grooming as grooming is a major response pattern of the horse
and allows a pecking order of alpha-- so place the horse on a lunge line as its longer
place the lunge line through the tie up ring and hold in a one hand
place the horse to stand behind the ring- and groom with the other hand, if the horse moves back let it-- as you have plenty of line- it will only go back a few steps
once stopped re place the horse behind the ring pat it -- speak in a human tone -GOOD GIRL STAND THERE -- groom it -- again repeat if nesscary
at no time give the horse a sweetie-- as this will reward and encoruage abad behaviour
and horse will not see you as alpha
at no time talk to it like an idiot like as in namby pamby 1- they havent got a clue what your saying and to they will ignore you and wlak all over you and not see you as alpha

so
use your tone of voice--- biggest assect aid you have--
if a dog brought you slippers you would praze it if it poohed on the floor you would scold it
its the same for the horse

a horse likes clear signals and directions
ahorse will respond if you have moved him back to the hitch rail behind the ring or where you are tieing him up to--- as you have encouraged the horse with your voice
and rewarded him with a groom -- grooming is bonding voices are bonding

the horse will then respect you as alpha-- as you have given clear signals- of stand
reward him with a pat -- and a groom--- grooming is an essential part of horses
as gives you the position of alpha-- if used correctly
once you have estabished this basic act of control it falls over into other areas

but your trianer shuld know the basics

i also have a problem if she feeding others and not yours in the smae area
thats like torture the horse can see others eating-- and if the others are loose
and yours in not for 5-6 hours on its own it has no way to escape or defend itself if it gets kicked
it has no where to run and if it does run depending how short - will it break its neck in trying to escape

your trianer b/o isnt a trianer just some bod running a yard to what she thinks right and convient
to her
does she really care for each individual horse or to you the client
you are paying for service that does not include the welfae of your horse as she putting your horse in danger herself -- contract broken in my book
no need for payment of rent - read your contract she is in breech of it

[HoofinAround]

...

[gabz]

I really like what Chief2 wrote ...

I can see that what is happening is that when the mare gets tied, she doesn't know why she is tied so this whole scenario is creating a worse habit. Since she doesn't want to be tied she is going to be harder to catch and misbehave more, which will make the BO tie her more, which will make the mare worse, and worse...

Since you haven't had your discussion with the BO, this most recent event is simply more of the same ...
PLEASE talk calmly to the BO and tell her it's not acceptable to tie your mare as she is still young and in training and obviously, hasn't learned anything from the previous tying situations. Do what Chief2 recommends.

I know you want your horse out of there, but don't be nasty (as much as you might want to be) or agressive when you speak with the BO. Sometimes it helps to bring along a quiet friend who can be in the background to give you courage.

[Sithly]

Well, you gave the BO the benefit of the doubt, but this sounds like the last straw. Personally, I would be more concerned by the BOs dishonesty than the tying. Makes you wonder what else she might be doing.

[LuvMyTB]

Sorry you and your mare are going through this. :( At the first barn I boarded at, my mare was steadily dropping weight and I couldn't figure out why. Several tests & vet visits showed no reason medical reason for her to be losing weight, but she was anyway--to the point of ribs sticking out, and regardless of how much oil I added to her feed or how much I upped her grain. It finally dawned on me that my BO wasn't feeding my mare--when I was out, I fed her myself, but apparently that was the only time she was eating. She was also on the low end of the herd and was always being chased away from the round bales.

I moved shortly after that realization. The whole situation sucked. I hope you can get your mare moved quickly--good luck.

[CosMonster]

That stinks...I don't have a problem with tying horses for long periods overnight (when we camp our horses are tied either to the trailer or to highlines overnight depending on how we're camping, for example). I don't even have problems with trained horses being left unsupervised. However, while BOs are in the sticky position of having to handle a horse daily and yet aren't supposed to train it, this is definitely not right. Like others have said, it doesn't teach the horse anything, and you don't want it being done to your horse.

In light of your recent post, I would tell the BO that your mare is not to be left tied in her stall, period. Do it in as friendly a manner as possible while still getting your point across, since your horse will still be in her care until you can move. Tell her that you will be stopping by at night to check on your horse. IANAL, but my understanding (told to me by the police when we went to retrieve some horses a BO was keeping hostage despite the fact that all bills were paid) is that she cannot legally bar you from accessing your property at any time. Read your contract first, though, and make sure you're prepared for her kicking you out if it comes to that (for that matter, she may be in breach of contract already...all that is too complicated for me, though).

That would be my advice, but it might not be good depending on your situation. Regardless, I with you luck with a bad situation.

[Quiet Riot]

It's kind of obvious, the BO is going to do what she wants.:no:
At this point, why even bothering confronting her about the tying issue?
I have a "gut" feeling, this situation could escalate very quickly with the BO.
Find a place to move your mare ASAP and just do it. In the mean time, try to get to the barn at night and untie your horse.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed, hoping you find another barn very soon.;)

[findeight]

....I stopped at the barn at 12:30am tonight and she was hooked to the tie/chain in the stall. NOT in reach of water and obviously tied up for the night.

That's what I was afraid of.

Run into this before and allow me to expain the whacked out wrongheaded thinking behind it.

If they stay out all day, they can do all the rolling, eating, messing things up and whatever they want.
When they come in, they are tied in the stall and cannot make any kind of mess. No rolling, no gnawing and kicking, not much poop and pee with nothing or very little going in and what does come out lands in one place.
Cuts down on the workload and amount of bedding. basically, you are getting a tie stall and not the box stall you think you are paying for.

Now, because they cannot move so much at night and, frankly, can't feel all that rested in the morning, all they will do is eat and rest out in the field so will hold weight well or actually gain. No silly horseplay and wasting calories.

PUHLEEZE stop thinking this is a Western thing, it's just poor treatment and totally unacceptable in any decent Western show barn where real horsemen are in charge.

This whole thing has nothing to do with tying and everything to do with shortcuts and bad horsemanship in the name of saving time and money.

For the record, mine used to stand tied to the trailer at the shows and tying was a judged skill in the Trail classes I used to do. I NEVER ever considered it discipline and NEVER tied in the stall for any reason-that's their home and place to be left alone.

This BO is borderline abusive but her actions are probably not bad enough to warrant any animal control charges. Just MOVE the horse.
Like, yesterday.

[Dazednconfused]

I'll be a voice of dissent (and know I've only read through the first page or so) and say that tying up can be very efficient for a disrespectful horse or one that misbehaves, or is impatient. If you need to talk to your BO about it, which it sounds like you do, then you should be non-accusatory and honest just like you are here. That's the best way to go about it.

[marta]

this is not an issue here, re-read the OP.
this is a form of punishment on a horse that's not even in training with this lady.

hoofinaround,
i know we didn't start off on a good foot (hoof;)), but i want to say that i'm glad to hear you're making arrangements to get her out of there. good luck!

[findeight]

Dazed...later posts revealed the horse is being tied in it's own stall all night and could not reach water on at least one occaision when the owner dropped by around midnite.

It may help teach patience but I'll be dammed if I can figure how a horse can associate prior bad behavior occuring on the way in from pasture and being tied without access to food and water as a consequence of that earlier bad behavior. None of mine could remember what happened 2 seconds ago, let alone 10 minutes or more.

Fact I would be afraid the horse would get to hate being tied up. Kind of counterproductive as tying is an important skill for most.

I think this is just the way this particular BO keeps the horses as others are similarly tied with the knowledge of the owners. Questionable horsekeeping at best.

[Fairview Horse Center]

tying up can be very efficient for a disrespectful horse or one that misbehaves, or is impatient.

We have tied one up (the owner and myself) that was being a total butthead about standing for grooming/tacking, but we did it with us 20' away watching him. Yes, it works super for one throwing temper, to make them realize they are not getting their way, turned back out with their buddies.

OTOH, if I ever tied one up for anything more than possibly while stall cleaning, much less for a night, I would fully expect 20 boarder's notices on my doorstep the next morning, and rightly so.

[Dazednconfused]

That is definitely unacceptable, I agree, Findeight (overnight without water). Didn't have time to read the whole thread. I'm not sure I agree with your reasons for it though - chances are it just makes the stall harder to clean, not easier. They will paw, dance around, mash it into little bits and you'll just end up having to strip the stall and rebed, which is not very efficent or cost effective. The simplest answer is usually the correct one - the BO is an idiot :p

[Dune]

OP, I hope that you're well on your way out of there. What a wacko! :eek: This is stupid reasoning and your horse isn't even in training with this woman. Here's a thought: If she gives you any guff on your way out, copy all these responses and give them to her to read....after you've tied her carefully in her home/office/wherever, just out of reach of the fridge/phone/water. :yes::winkgrin::lol:

[Quiet Riot]

That's what I was afraid of.

Run into this before and allow me to expain the whacked out wrongheaded thinking behind it.

If they stay out all day, they can do all the rolling, eating, messing things up and whatever they want.
When they come in, they are tied in the stall and cannot make any kind of mess. No rolling, no gnawing and kicking, not much poop and pee with nothing or very little going in and what does come out lands in one place.
Cuts down on the workload and amount of bedding. basically, you are getting a tie stall and not the box stall you think you are paying for.

Now, because they cannot move so much at night and, frankly, can't feel all that rested in the morning, all they will do is eat and rest out in the field so will hold weight well or actually gain. No silly horseplay and wasting calories.

PUHLEEZE stop thinking this is a Western thing, it's just poor treatment and totally unacceptable in any decent Western show barn where real horsemen are in charge.

This whole thing has nothing to do with tying and everything to do with shortcuts and bad horsemanship in the name of saving time and money.

This BO is borderline abusive but her actions are probably not bad enough to warrant any animal control charges. Just MOVE the horse.
Like, yesterday.

Now this makes sense! It's amazing what some people will do to save a buck.:mad:

[findeight]

I actually have run into this tying up at night as a labor and material saving procedure theory in my boarding barn lifetime. More then once, actually.

At any rate, this particular BO believes this is the proper way to treat them and to run her business...sounds like the other owners are onboard with it-or don't care. She will not change her theory for one boarder so OP needs to high tail it out of there.

[vanheimrhorses]

totally unacceptable insane mental behavior on barn owners part, it is like time out for kids in a corner which a horse cannot comprehend or understand human emotions or punishment, get out of that barn fast before something worse happens, and report the lady for cruelty to animals as that constitutes it tying her and feeding other horses in front of her and not letting her be fed

[arena run]

Well.. the situation has changed. I stopped at the barn at 12:30am tonight and she was hooked to the tie/chain in the stall. NOT in reach of water and obviously tied up for the night. I unhooked her and whipped out of there in a hurry. I will be going there to talk to her face to face tomorrow afternoon. My mare will be outside all day so she will be safe. This will change and NOT be done anymore effective immediately or I will leave asap. I have a friend who I can probably take her to, she's an hour away, but she'd be safe there till I found her a spot elsewhere. I am so beyond pi$$ed.. on the phone with my hubby about it now. I wonder if this would be considered cruelty if I reported her. I know when you watch that animal precinct they have to have access to clean, fresh water. These horses that are tied do NOT have that.

Whoa. Yup. Outta there would be high on my priority list, too. Finding her at 12:30 w/no water or hay.... not acceptable on a regular basis. I DID, however, tie up a little pony one night after unloading. She was being a bossy little thing and was going to get off NOW! Well, she was unloaded after she settled down and then I tied her to a tree, went inside to pee, and forgot about her.

:D

It was not an intentional training deal, but she did stand tied from about 12am until 7 or so the next morning. Guess what? She never threw another fit about unloading or her 'place in line to get turned out' again. :)

One other 'standing tied' episode I had was a 3yo filly who punctured her knee capsule and was leaking synovial fluid. She stood tied to a tree for 4 days. Hay and water were always there however.

Your mare being tied inside the stall for who knows how many days in a row w/no water or hay.... not good.

<<snip>>
...This made more sense to me than the nonsense about punishing the horse for rude behavior or teaching the horse to be patient.:no::(:mad:

If done correctly it does teach them patience. And if you don't want to label it as 'patience' then it certainly quells their enthusiasm once they understand what tying means.

I do agree that they do not associate it w/the rude behavior, but if they ARE rude (and they understand how to stand tied) they do learn pretty quickly that it pays no dividends to prance and jog to the house after a ride or whatever else they might get all up-in-the-air about. All that happens is they get to stand tied for 2-3 hours.


I'm not sure what makes winter such a bad time to start a horse.. if there's an indoor the weather really makes no difference. ....

Hmmm, read this again, Hoofin. :D It tickles me that the answer to not starting in the winter is right there in your own post! lol

The indoor's the key!

I even have this problem here in Mississippi even though we were wearing t-shirts this past week. There are no (repeat NO) arenas close by which aren't basically fenced-off soup ponds.

We have a covered collesium w/in 10 minutes but can't get in. There's another covered arena about an hour away but starting a horse in there is, for me, financially prohibitive (gas-wise).

I have one who needs desparately to get going under saddle but it's just not practical right now. So -- lotsa ground manners, long-lining, and ...... *collective gasp*!!!! tying. :D :D :D sylvia

[HoofinAround]

...

[findeight]

:rolleyes:

Yeah...sure...everybody is back at forth to the barn at 1 am....right? I don't care what her hours are, those are NOT the hours of a healthy grazing animal.

Get out of there. Somewhere. Even a private facility or nicer backyard. Find an intermediate home until you can secure a more permanent one.

The only thing worse then a whackjob with bizarre theories and pratices is one that won't even admit to them and keeps changing the story. With no way to pin these people down to what they actually practice, there is no way you can decide to put a horse in their care.

No barn is perfect. Ever. And you need to agree with 90% of their practices because none of them are changing anything major just for for you. BUT when they don't tell you what those are and/or lie about what they are doing/never give the same answer twice? How the hell can you make an informed choice?

You can't and who knows what really going on in the wee small hours?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Tell her to not tie your horse unless someone is CONSTANTLY within 10' of her - period. If she needs to tie her for some reason, she can stand there and watch. I have a stall walker / pacer boarded with me now. I would NEVER tie him - period.

[Tory Relic]

PUHLEEZE stop thinking this is a Western thing, it's just poor treatment and totally unacceptable in any decent Western show barn where real horsemen are in charge.



I agree. I grew up around western pleasure and working horses, and I'm horrified at this. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I left a horse tied.

OP, I wish you the best of luck with the situation.

[TSWJB]

i think this is totally unacceptable. i would never allow my horse to be tied. they do not know why they are being tied up. and i think its dangerous to leave an unattended horse tied up. you came on here asking for an opinion. and people are giving it to you. i guess you would like someone to say that its okay its just a few hours.
i bought a young horse and i gave up the big fancy indoor and outdoor for unlimited turnout. i have a small indoor and its not as fancy. but my horse is extremely happy. and BTW i have been around for years and i had never heard of the barn i am boarding at. but through word of mouth i found it. so i would ask around. ask everyone. go to tack shops etc. the woman who owns the barn does not want just anyone in her barn and she does not advertise. i couldnt be happier with where my horse is right now. i wouldnt be able to sleep at night if i was worried that my horse was tied up without food. that kind of stuff develops ulcers and stress.
good luck dealing with this problem! i do feel for you, but keep trying to find a more suitable place for your horse.

[Dune]

Tell her to not tie your horse unless someone is CONSTANTLY within 10' of her - period. If she needs to tie her for some reason, she can stand there and watch. I have a stall walker / pacer boarded with me now. I would NEVER tie him - period.


OP, did you tell the BO that?

[Stacie]

I have calls into a few barns that my farrier suggested and I found through some dressage sites. There is one major dressage barn in the area, but of course they're full :( I wish all the decent dressage trainers didn't congregate in the same darn barn. Thanks for all the help and support in dealing with this.
Consider telling your story to some of them to see if they can suggest another facility or work something out to get you in faster.
If your friend can take your mare over the short term you should consider removing her immediately.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have calls into a few barns that my farrier suggested and I found through some dressage sites. There is one major dressage barn in the area, but of course they're full :( I wish all the decent dressage trainers didn't congregate in the same darn barn. Thanks for all the help and support in dealing with this.

Go there, talk to them, offer to help them with clnics, etc. Take a few lessons there. Once they know you, they may try to juggle to find you a space.

[TalkIsCheap]

fourh mom.. she is tied in the stall, safety knot to the steel grill.

I have not read thru the rest of the posts...but this presents a problem to me in that I have seen steel grills get pulled down by horses tied in such a fashion. Whether she is tied inside or outside of her stall is meaningless....it is a horrible accident waiting to happen.

[sketcher]

Well.. the situation has changed. I stopped at the barn at 12:30am tonight and she was hooked to the tie/chain in the stall. NOT in reach of water and obviously tied up for the night.

Now, that would piss me off. That is a whole different story.

[2ndyrgal]

The barn owner would have gotten at the very least a call to where she works from me at that instant. And yes, pack line horses do get tied at night and they don't have a bucket in front of them and they don't die from it, but it would not be what I wanted for my horse. Because pack line horses are trained to stand tied (it is not used as a punishment) and there is a reason for it. I cannot imagine a behavior (save stall walking) that would compel me to tie a horse up in it's stall. Ever, for anything. Tell the barn owner that you do not want your horse tied. Ever. For any reason. Ask what the behavior is. If she's rude, perhaps she's among the last to come in, and they need to change the order. I've taken care of breeding stallions and race horses that were jerks either coming or going, you sit them back on their hocks a time or two, be careful and just get them where they're going. Unless you are paying for training, tell her to knock it off, and if she can't bring her in without tying her up, tell her either you'll bring her in at feed time or you'll bring her in when you get there. Then be prepared to do just that, or move her. There will not be a pretty way to do this, because you are challenging someone's knowledge and beliefs and people tend not to like that. TFB, your money, your horse, take a stand. You aren't a bad mom, but understand that if you do not grow a set, you might as well just figure you 're going to the barn every night at 11pm to let your horse loose.

[2ndyrgal]

And findeight is right. Mares especially can be really nasty in their stalls. The last mare I had was a kind, wonderful, talented foxhunter. My big gelding hated her, which meant she had to be turned out in a different field, and she was an utter pig in her stall. Strip the whole thing daily and my stalls are huge. Bed light, bed deep, didn't matter, it looked like she invited all the other horses over for a s**t party every night then ran a rototiller thru the bedding. I didn't keep her 6 months, couldn't sell her fast enough and told the new owner just what the previous owner told me, "she prefers to live outside". What he meant was YOU will prefer that she live outside. If she'd been a boarder, I'd have had to charge double just for the bedding she destroyed daily.

[HoofinAround]

...

[greysandbays]

And yes, pack line horses do get tied at night and they don't have a bucket in front of them and they don't die from it, but it would not be what I wanted for my horse. Because pack line horses are trained to stand tied (it is not used as a punishment)...

And the reason EVERY horse shouldn't be "trained to stand tied" would be just what, exactly??

Because the horses are too stupid to be able to learn it? Because their people are too inept to be able to train them to do it?? Because the average horse owner is such an idiot she can't be trusted to tie a horse in any manner such that it can't help killing itself, even if the horse is trained to stand tied?

[Rancher]

I don't understand the posts about people being worried about a horse tied up for long periods of time. I thought that teaching a horse to stand tied was pretty basic. I didn't even know that some horses couldn't stand tied unattended. What the OP is talking about is NOT okay. It's not okay for a BO to tie a horse if the owner doesn't want it, or to deny the horse food/water. But just tying a horse in itself should be okay. I tie my horses all the time. I couldn't imagine not being able to do that. I don't have a barn. If I want to work with a bunch of horses in an afternoon I tie them all to the fence to watch while I work with their buddy. I don't think anything of leaving them and going into the house for lunch or something. They are tied to something solid, with unbreakable halters and unbreakable leads. I don't want any horse to think they can pull back and get away. That is how horses learn to pull back. Mine try it a couple times, doesn't work and they give up and never do it again. Has a horse EVER broke it's neck by pulling back if they were tied at the height of theirs withers and were not a foal at the time? I simply can't see it happening. To me this must be a myth.

I worked for a guest ranch that did pack trips. When ever we were not hobbling them we tied them to posts over night. You simply can't have a horse get away and run home when you have guests with you so they were tied with a bowline so they couldn't even accidentally untie themselves. They were tied so their noses could just touch the ground. That way they could eat their food and lay down if they wished, but couldn't get a hoof over the rope.


I really did think that tying a horse and leaving it was pretty darn normal.

[gallopsquickly]

I like this reply,
I would even make it shorter by simply asking the barn manager not to tie the horse away from her food and water and to please notify you immediately of any behavior problems that should be addressed. Also ask the manager to use a leather halter for all uses in the future.

Hi Ms. Barn Manager,
I need to speak with you about my horse being tied to the front of her stall occasionally. I find this unacceptable and I do not want this to continue. It does not state in the board contract that if my horse misbehaves you will perform unsolicited training by tying my horse for hours without access to food or water. If there is a problem with her behavior please let me know what it is so I can work on it. The tying cannot continue, it is a safety risk to my horse and a health risk to my horse. What can we do to make this situation agreeable to us both?

[moribelle]

The fact that you never confronted the BO about your horse still being tied at midnight, let alone with no access to food and water astounds me. This is animal cruelty. I blame you just as much as the barn owner for the horse suffering. The only way a horse should be tied overnight is if it IS a pack animal, and HAS been TRAINED in that manner.
I've heard it all now.
Actually, the BO isn't responsible for doing things her way, YOU are for not having the kahunas and responsibility as an animal owner to do something to change it IMMEDIATELY!
And who says the horses are dumb animals!

[MSUteamrider]

Tying for hours to break a horse of being a jerk about his/her food is dumb. A better way to handle the issue is to NOT put grain the stall before bringing them in. Your BO should be going out an hour after bringing everyone in to grain if she really feels that the horses are rushing to get in and get to their grain.

Really. You have to be smarter than the animals you're dealing with.

[EqLuvr]

Exactly, why does BO even feel it's her place to "punish"?

Why don't you tell her not to tie your horse up anymore?

"Thanks for trying to work with her, but I found her tied at 12:30 a.m. away from food and water, and I don't want her tied up again."

I wonder what else is going on when you're not around...!!!

Time to grow a pair, girlfriend.

Screw diplomacy, just get the heck outta there.

[Sithly]

This thread is old. The OP is already moving her horse.

[cyriz's mom]

To OP, I'm sorry that you're having to deal with a nutjob. I live in North Texas...believe me when I say I've seen some nutjobs around here...many with really expensive horses.

Just yesterday, we were driving on the interstate and a yahoo had stopped on an off ramp, unloaded his horse (from an OLD 6' 2H BP), and the horse was grazing LOOSE along the side of the interstate while the "humans" were stretching their legs. WTF??????

Sorry, off on a little tangent there...anyway, once you get her moved, you might want to think about putting her on a course of Ulcer Guard. The tying alone would make me wonder, but if she is now stall walking, I think there's a really good chance she has ulcers.

Good luck finding a sane, safe place to keep her.

[HoofinAround]

Horse is moved... end of story.

[findeight]

Sorry...can't resist.

It's not OK to tie a horse in it's stall in the middle of the night with a too short rope to reach food and water when the owner is paying for what they used to call a "loose box" as in a stall they are not tied in.

Nobody is paying for that pack string horse to spend the night in a stall.

That was pretty much the root of this one.