Bruised soles: Can you put shoes on anyways? (UPDATE: The Vet says...page 13)

[WW_Queen]

Hi again everyone.

So my horse couldn't walk today....this was his second "barefoot" trim and went as poorly as the last (two different farriers) one, where he was so sore he was on stallrest for 4-5 days plus bute.

I am really trying hard to "stick it out" until his feet toughen up, as it was super hard to justify $100+ trim/resets for a horse that has been out of ridden work for almost 4 months. However, seeing him today, hobbling like an old man, shaking because he hurt to stand on the interlocking flooring.....I'm super duper tempted to call the farrier right back tomorrow and tack some shoes back on him. I can't stand seeing him like this!!

He could walk around in his stall seemingly okay (it was very cushy today thankfully), and with the exception of the "this one hurts the most" where there was some heat in the foot and along the leg.

I've been putting the venus turpentine on him, but it doesn't seem to help much.

Is putting shoes back on him (at least fronts!) an option when he's sore?

[Simkie]

Yep, it sure is. I had a similar experience with one of my mares off the track. Tried her barefoot before she was really ready and she was WAY too sore to continue. I kept her in shoes for maybe 1 or 2 go rounds, painting her feet with durasole daily, and then was able to transition her to barefoot. She just needed time to grow some more foot and toughen up her soles. She had ZERO troubles when I pulled her shoes the second time.

[Daydream Believer]

I suggest you get your horse some hoof boots with comfort pads and put them on. You will be shocked at how much it helps. Best of all you can then wean him out of the boots gradually and ease his transition to bare feet. There is no reason why he has to be so uncomfortable. I like Boas for their ease of use but many like Easyboots and other types. What is important is that the fit is right and they are comfortable for the horse.

I edited this to add that for your horse to be that sore following a trim does make me question the trim itself. It could be your farrier is taking your horse too short or perhaps rasping off some of the sole. You need to educate yourself on what a good trim is and what is appropriate for a barefoot horse also so you can judge the quality of the work you are getting from your farrier. Do NOT blindly trust anyone and assume they know best. Be your horse's advocate and learn as much as you can. You won't regret it.

[HiddenStars826]

I agree with what Daydream said.

Personally, I'd check out the hoof-boot option before going back to shoes. YOu pay one price upfront for the boots. If they work, great, the horse is comfy and you can eventually wean them off boots. If they don't work, then thats okay too. They can be re-sold, or kept for when your horse does come out of shoes and is transitioning, or if the horse loses a shoe. In my mind, putting money out for a pair of boots is cheaper than putting shoes on and having to pay for them to be reset every 6 or so weeks. I dunno about your farrier bills, but mine weren't cheap with the horse in shoes. And like I said, the boots can always be resold if they don't work.

In addition, I may wonder about the trim as well. While every horse is different, and some horses get sore no matter what the trim is like, if your horse is so sore he's buted and on stall rest, something isn't right. A horse coming out of shoes needs a gradual trim to get his feet used to being barefoot and hitting the ground different. But the horse should not be "hobbling" and shaking in pain because his feet were so sore. If my horse were that bad, I'd be thinking of putting the shoes back on too! If your horse is a bit ouchy when he walks, thats normal for a horse in transition. But not what you described. I'd do some research, both on COTH and elsewhere on the web, in books, etc. Jamie Jackson, Pete Ramey, KC LaPierre, for a few, are good sources, IMO on the barefoot horse. Once you get some info, you are better to see what's happening with your horse and can make the decision to talk to the farrier about changing the trim, putting shoes on, or firing him. Personally, I'm not sure I'd keep the farrier- I dunno if I'd want him nailing something onto my horse's foot if he's already made him this sore.

Good luck. I hope your horse feels better. Just remember, you alone are your horse's best voice. You know him, so only you can make the BEST decision for the horse.

[vanheimrhorses]

some horses just cannot go barefoot i had a TB ottb that could not tolerate it ever so yes I would put the shoes back on as soon as possible to get yours out of pain

[Samotis]

I would just put shoes back on him if it doesn't get better. I did take my horses shoes off when he got hurt and he was pretty sore for a couple weeks, but then went well without shoes for a year. A year ago I pulled them again, and again he was sore, but got better. He didn't have major pain, just when he would hit a rock or make a sharp turn. If he is that sore, I would not put him through it unless you think he may be getting better. I did use Keratex for my horse and it did seem to help. Maybe try packing his soles for a couple of days to pull out bruising if that could be what it is.
(there are plenty of products ou that sooth bruising and it will also help take pressure off his feet.

Good Luck and remember his tummy if you have had him on bute for a long time.:)(gastrogard is a lot more expensive then front shoes!)

[Lauren!]

To answer the OP's question, yes, you can put shoes back on, and they may help immediately, or may not if the horse is sore. You could also put pour in pads in, which make many sore horses more comfortable (but aren't cheap).

I DO agree with Daydream Believer... If I were you and I was even remotely interested in keeping the horse barefoot I would get some boots (best kind depends on hoof shape, but EasyBoot Epics are a popular choice and easy to apply) and 12mm comfort pads. You will be amazed at how much better the horse feels with them :yes: YOu just need to measure carefully and pick the right size... they are supposed to be really close fitting. Your trimmer may be able to help you choose as well.

I would also read up on barefoot and educate yourself as much as possible so you know what to look for, or at least a little of what you're looking at... unfortunately not all trimmers are created equal, and IMO the best ones will recommend padded boots if a horse is sore or having a rough transition, which I'm guessing yours didn't. Was the horse doing better before the trim, but then got worse?? That would be a red flag for a potentially bad trim IMO (meaning you need a better trimmer, not necessarily just shoes). A sore horse is a sore horse, but they shouldn't get WORSE from a good trim IMO.

Good luck... I feel your pain, it took me 2 tries to get my first horse barefoot (he couldn't walk at ALL the first time, but I didn't know much about feet then and didn't have a good trimmer or any support) and several tries to get my younger one barefoot more recently (he was sore and friends talked me into putting shoes back on out of concern). They are both happily barefoot now, but the younger one WAS very very sore for a few weeks and had to wear boots any time he was out of his stall (or else he'd be miserable). For a few months after he was ouchy on rocks too, but he is a lot better now. I still ride him in front boots when I think the ground will be really hard or I'm planning a long trail ride (often hard or rocky around here) but he's very comfortable overall and I'm happy I stuck it out! He had a serious shoe-losing problem and made himself sore even with shoes, so this is a big improvement!

[Equine Obsession]

Well, this product just appeared (http://www.zest.net/view/vettec/products/soleguard.html). No one seems to know how effective it is but it's a good concept. And with the right steps could be a possibility for you.

I'm in relatively the same situation of a horse that doesn't really need shoes but just gets too sore without them. If I find good reviews for this product I'm goin' for it.

[Happy_Hooves]

As always the prime question is the trim being done correctly? If not you're pis&&ing in the wind.

If so and if the horse is sore temporary solutions like hoofboots for riding or turnout are worth a try. Do not leave hoofboots on overnight. Pathogens thrive in non breathable boots.

You could try the new vetec product. It may fall out without a shoe.

Shoes with rim pads can be placed on even feet that have been trimmed too short.

If the horse is sore you need to do something. Pick one and do it.

[FortheFunofitFarm]

As always the prime question is the trim being done correctly?

Exactly. Shoes or no shoes, educate yourself on what a correct balanced trim is. Shoes on top of an incorrect trim will just make things worse.

[JB]

I edited this to add that for your horse to be that sore following a trim does make me question the trim itself. It could be your farrier is taking your horse too short or perhaps rasping off some of the sole.

Absolutely agree. Ignorance (meant in the true sense!) is often a big reason why more horses aren't barefoot. I am NOT saying it's a sin to put shoes back on, or never take them off, for the right reasons.

But, if your horse has been poorly trimmed for a long enough time, his feet are not in any condition to be barefoot at this point in time. This means 1 of 2 things - hoof boots as already mentioned, or finding a farrier competent enough to start correcting the feet while shod so that they are in much better shape to go barefoot after another while.

If you can post pictures, that would be ever so helpful :)

[thumbsontop]

Is this horse out of work for good? At $100 for trims and resets, and probably $40 for just a trim, you are saving $60 each time. If he's going back into work soon it's just not worth it to pull the shoes if he has a long transition period for going barefoot. 6-7 weeks between shoeings is fine for some in the winter.

Some can have their shoes pulled and be just fine. Others are better just to leave on just for the sake of consistency. And if he will be anywhere that is gravelly in the meantime it could be pretty uncomfortable. We had a pony that was fine barefoot on soft ground but she just didn't ever tolerate gravel - even with regular exposure to it.

[findeight]

The shaking bothers me. Alot.

I have seen plenty of bruised soles make them pretty sore but have only seen a few so sore their legs shook...and they had been incorrectly trimmed by somebody trying to change too much too fast. Beware, I do suspect the trim...especially if it's the second one and he is just as sore as the first time.

By all means put some kind of bootie on him. If you don't want to buy anything, use sheet cotton, a diaper, duct tape and some vet wrap to make a slipper for him to cushion the sole and if he is too sore to walk? Keep him in that nice, soft bedded stall. Give him some bute too, guy hurts right now. Help him out a little.

HAVE YOU CHECKED FOR A PULSE in those feet? Something else could be going on.

Oh, and to your original question about shoes? You need to wait until things are not so painful but you can put the shoes back on one that's footsore. Wait a week though and keep him comfy.

[Lookout]

I agree with most of what has been said - it sounds like you need better help. But, how have you narrowed it down to being 'bruised soles'?

[grayarabpony]

The shaking is a sign that something major is going on -- abcesses in the front feet, or fractured coffin bone. Has the vet seen him recently? Sounds like he needs hoof testers and x-rays.

Edited to add: One time when my horse was first sent to a trainer's (and was completely high on pounds and pounds of sweet feed that I did not know he was getting), he badly bruised a front foot -- I mean 2/3rds of it. A large abscess formed. The foot was so painful that his hind legs shook from him trying to keep weight off the front. I had to have the vet come out twice to lance the abscess -- once his foot was drained, and he had a boot on while he re-grew his sole, he was completely comfortable.

[Acertainsmile]

Another good product (and better than Turpentine) to toughen things up is Durasole...

I used this on a 12 yr old TB that had worn shoes since he was a baby...his walls became thin, so we pulled shoes. I use the Durasole, and it did take awhile to transition back to soundess, but the Durasole really worked... I had previously been using Turpentine with NO luck.

[grayarabs]

Sorry to hear this. If your horse is in that much pain after a trim - something went wrong - too much hoof taken off - ie sole? Did you watch the trim? Sole nipped?pared? I have seen that happen countless times. You said second trim by different farrier. After first trim - also sore - then got better? Then trimmed again - immediately sore? Can you find the trimmings left behind - to see if sole was nipped with wall and still attached? I agree to have vet look at the horse - x-rays etc. I would recommend boots - interim tape on styrofoam pads. Do you have a soft grassy turn-out for him? See if he would walk a bit.
The way I understand it - the last thing you want to do after horse is trimmed - sore or not - is keep him in a stall. Do you have photos of hooves? Could you get some and post? Sole and side shots?! Good luck. Please update.

[Tom Stovall]

WW_Queen in gray

Hi again everyone.

So my horse couldn't walk today....this was his second "barefoot" trim and went as poorly as the last (two different farriers) one, where he was so sore he was on stallrest for 4-5 days plus bute.

I am really trying hard to "stick it out" until his feet toughen up, as it was super hard to justify $100+ trim/resets for a horse that has been out of ridden work for almost 4 months. However, seeing him today, hobbling like an old man, shaking because he hurt to stand on the interlocking flooring.....I'm super duper tempted to call the farrier right back tomorrow and tack some shoes back on him. I can't stand seeing him like this!!

He could walk around in his stall seemingly okay (it was very cushy today thankfully), and with the exception of the "this one hurts the most" where there was some heat in the foot and along the leg.

I've been putting the venus turpentine on him, but it doesn't seem to help much.

Is putting shoes back on him (at least fronts!) an option when he's sore?

Short answer: Hell yes!

Aside from discipline-specific stuff, like racing plates on runners and sliders on reiners, there are three reasons horses need to be shod: protection, traction or to effect a therapeutic change in gait. Your horse needs protection. Now! At this point, boots and sole paints will be ineffective in comparison to shoes, although a sole paint might be useful when used in conjunction with shoes. Your horse has evidently been trimmed too short, which means shoes are no longer really an "option". At this point, shoes - and possibly pads or pour-ins - are a necessity in order to keep your horse from hurting. I don't subscribe to the idiocy that proclaims it's desirable to force horses in one's responsibility to live a painful existence when transitioning from shod to barefooted, based on some guru's conjecture that it's "better" for the horse to live barefooted and in pain than to live shod and pain free. Sometimes, natural ain't better; sometimes, natural hurts like hell.

Take this to the bank: whenever a horse walks off worse than he walked up - shod or barefooted - the mechanic did something wrong. Most likely, whoever did the trimming has removed too much of those structures that exist to protect the sensitive structures within the hoof capsule. Fortunately, it's an easy fix: Wide web aluminum shoes, possibly with pads or pour ins, will likely make your horse sound immediately.

Doubtless, the barefoot folks will rise up in arms and encourage you to apply half-arsed measures like boots and sole paints instead of shoeing, but it's too late for that now: your horse is evidently too short and his feet need as much mechanical protection as can possibly be applied, right now. Or, you can futz about interminably with half-arsed measures in an effort to force your horse to overcome someone's ineptitude.

Your call.

[Appassionato]

The shaking bothers me too. You need x-rays, possibly anti-inflammatories (if inflammation is found per the x-rays, usually D/V shots), boots with pads or styrofoam on this horse NOW. A vet needs to see this horse now, even if it's the weekend. This can lead to permanent damage for your horse. The farrier (either one, or a new one) needs a call too.

I agree with Mr. Tom from my own personal experience: if your horse is hurting that much (shaking), no hoof hardener in the world will help. You can toughen the external structures, but you can't stop what's causing the inflammation around the internal structures with hoof hardener. I agree with shoeing the horse, but as Mr. Tom mentioned this horse needs more than JUST shoes. This horse needs something to help it's internal structures...then one day the horse might can go barefoot.

[JHUshoer20]

WW_Queen in gray

Hi again everyone.

So my horse couldn't walk today....this was his second "barefoot" trim and went as poorly as the last (two different farriers) one, where he was so sore he was on stallrest for 4-5 days plus bute.

I am really trying hard to "stick it out" until his feet toughen up, as it was super hard to justify $100+ trim/resets for a horse that has been out of ridden work for almost 4 months. However, seeing him today, hobbling like an old man, shaking because he hurt to stand on the interlocking flooring.....I'm super duper tempted to call the farrier right back tomorrow and tack some shoes back on him. I can't stand seeing him like this!!

He could walk around in his stall seemingly okay (it was very cushy today thankfully), and with the exception of the "this one hurts the most" where there was some heat in the foot and along the leg.

I've been putting the venus turpentine on him, but it doesn't seem to help much.

Is putting shoes back on him (at least fronts!) an option when he's sore?

Short answer: Hell yes!

Aside from discipline-specific stuff, like racing plates on runners and sliders on reiners, there are three reasons horses need to be shod: protection, traction or to effect a therapeutic change in gait. Your horse needs protection. Now! At this point, boots and sole paints will be ineffective in comparison to shoes, although a sole paint might be useful when used in conjunction with shoes. Your horse has evidently been trimmed too short, which means shoes are no longer really an "option". At this point, shoes - and possibly pads or pour-ins - are a necessity in order to keep your horse from hurting. I don't subscribe to the idiocy that proclaims it's desirable to force horses in one's responsibility to live a painful existence when transitioning from shod to barefooted, based on some guru's conjecture that it's "better" for the horse to live barefooted and in pain than to live shod and pain free. Sometimes, natural ain't better; sometimes, natural hurts like hell.

Take this to the bank: whenever a horse walks off worse than he walked up - shod or barefooted - the mechanic did something wrong. Most likely, whoever did the trimming has removed too much of those structures that exist to protect the sensitive structures within the hoof capsule. Fortunately, it's an easy fix: Wide web aluminum shoes, possibly with pads or pour ins, will likely make your horse sound immediately.

Doubtless, the barefoot folks will rise up in arms and encourage you to apply half-arsed measures like boots and sole paints instead of shoeing, but it's too late for that now: your horse is evidently too short and his feet need as much mechanical protection as can possibly be applied, right now. Or, you can futz about interminably with half-arsed measures in an effort to force your horse to overcome someone's ineptitude.

Your call.
It doesn't get any better than that! Is worth reading twice:D
Amen to that Mr Stovall
George

[WW_Queen]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I have rarely needed this forum in the past, now I feel like I’m on it daily, posting every week. :cry:

I will post what happened at his last trim, what happened yesterday and then see if I can respond to some comments. I hope that is the best way to give everyone the most panoramic view of the situation.

Last trim:
I had my horse’s shoes pulled in mid-December. He had ripped off his FL and RH in the field. I had been toying with the idea for a while ($260 for a trim + shoes all round + wedges in hind to help stifle), but this seemed to cement it. This farrier specializes in sporthorses and was recommended by the best diagnostic clinic in my area, however the price and the fact he could not be ridden regularly made it too expensive to continue.

Two or three days after “the pull”, I pulled him out of his stall and he could barely walk. Sore on all 4 legs. Vet comes first thing next morning and notes soreness all around frog and sole. Prescribes venus turpentine for a week plus some bute for a few days. About 6-7 days later, he is back outside and seemingly okay.


Current trim:
Last night, I went up to visit (farrier was there on Weds) and horse would not come out of his stall. Very odd? This is a different farrier, recommended by my normal vet (has done 90% of the work with him over the last 2 years) who basically services every lesson and showbarn in the area for about 20 years. He kept telling me I had to use this guy (who is a QH guy) because it’s his “business” to prop up the QH’s and TB’s to fix the too much toe – no heel problem. My other guy (the sporthorse guy) is out of town for 2 weeks on vaca, and my poor guy is already pretty badly chipped. QH farrier was coming anyways, so I figure good timing to try him out.

I insist he has to come out of his stall (figuring I can’t examine him properly in the shadows of his stall) and he hobbles out. He inched his way across the interlocking flooring, bit by bit. He is barely putting weight on FL. When he does stand, he parks himself out (lamintis was my first thought), puts his hind feet in place one by one, then pulls his fronts back into normal standing position.

Right off the bat, he is tip-toeing on his front left, and is trying to lift his hind right off the ground. I check him over, top to bottom, twice. No lacerations, no discharge anywhere, fairly bright eyed (but wincing), no abnormal breathing, swelling. There is mild heat in the front left (I mean, very mild) in the tendon, mild heat in the sole. He did not respond to me feeling his tendons (quite hard on that sore one) however did pick up three feet (therefore putting weight on the opposite one) WITH THE EXCEPTION of the LH (ie, refusing to bear weigh on the RH). No way, no how. (This is where the shaking came in.) I apply pressure (unscientifically I should add) and he is sore in the sole and frog of his RH and LF.

Otherwise, horse is showing no signs of distress, is eating like his regular pig self, standard respiration. On the way back into his stall (of which I let him figure himself out by “leading” him with a treat) he inches his way back in. Once he is back in the stall, he was like “Ooohhh yeah” and enthusiastically, weight-baring on all legs marched straight to his hay. Just to “test” him, I asked him to do a circle, of which where was no problem in his fronts, just more shuffling in the hind end. (Which is “standard” due to his stifle issue.)



In hindsight, had I anticipated pulling his shoes (versus just “do it”) I should have been pre-treating his feet. I have pulled shoes off sporthorses in the past (for vacation/retirement purposes) and seen a little soreness, but not like this. I have zero experience with those easyboot/Mac type things….where would I even get them? I like the idea of putting shoes back on, getting him comfy, THEN treating him for a while and pulling them off again.

In response to “how was the trim?”, I’d say he did what my vet wanted, chopped off the toe and tried to save as much heel as possible. His FL heel has always been the “problem” heel, it is low-slung no matter what farrier does him. This case was no exception. In my uneducated opinion, his fronts were more “pancake” like and his hinds followed the standard sporting-breed look. Not sure if that impacted the effectiveness of the trim, however I think my horse’s actions speak for themselves. If I had to choose between sporthorse guy and QH guy, I would probably stick with sporthorse, or at least try a different sporthorse.

I can try and get pics this weekend to post. You’ll see what I mean.

For the record, my horse has had maybe a grand total of $1,500 (vaccs/worming/teeth) in the four years I’ve owned him. VERY few problems. I’ve always had sporthorse farriers and even the occasional “I do everything” farrier with NO problems like these. In the last year, my horse has had 5 different farriers, each with varying success. This year with him has been the financial and emotional year from hell.

I didn’t call the vet out right away due to his “Look at me, I’m fine now!” attitude when back in his stall. If I suspected any kind of skeletal trauma (ie, exhibiting unwillingness to utilize the leg while on soft footing) I would have called that minute. He has had radiographs (head to all four toes) in the last 2-3 months, all of which were practically sparkling clean.

Ironically, the vet tech was out that day to give him an estrogen shot and nobody noticed anything “weird”. The barn staff is essentially useless, he could have come in with two legs and nobody would have called me. (Yes, I am looking for a new barn as we speak.) Again, I would have suspected trauma (injury in a short period of time, between the shot and him coming in for the night?) however I can’t ascertain whether they even brought him in for the shot, if he was already in the stall (I believe he did get turnout that day, but can’t be sure), etc. I just called the vet’s office to double-check. I spoke to the vet tech AFTER she was at the barn yesterday, so I’m assuming had she noticed anything she would have mentioned it.

Just in case, what would I be seeing in the event of a break in the bone (coffin) or laminitis? I have seen some laminitic horses before and they act nothing like my guy. (Granted, it could be in the early stages, right?)

Tonight will make it or break it. I need to see some improvement (he had bute last night but that’s it until I can examine him shortly) or I will call them out again.

[JB]

Doubtless, the barefoot folks will rise up in arms and encourage you to apply half-arsed measures like boots and sole paints instead of shoeing,

If you had actually take then time to read the replies here, instead of going off on the "barefoot folks", you would see that at least one of us DID recommend shoes as an option :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[JB]

In response to “how was the trim?”, I’d say he did what my vet wanted, chopped off the toe and tried to save as much heel as possible. His FL heel has always been the “problem” heel, it is low-slung no matter what farrier does him. This case was no exception. In my uneducated opinion, his fronts were more “pancake” like

This is making it sound like he had chronic long toe/low heel syndrome - this does indeed tend to flatten and thin the sole, and that will absolutely make a horse VERY tender without shoes "creating" concavity. "Low slung" heels are LONG heels, but they are crushed and underrun and need to be rasped off, not left alone. Simply lopping off toes and leaving heels like that makes feet SORE.

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two in gray

re: Your horse is cut too short and needs shoeing...

That's nothing but your OPINION Tom. ;)

Yes'm, it's just my opinion, but it's based on a an ongoing education and a modicum of experience - upwards of 100,000 horses, not counting trims.

And just for the record books - I had a farrier cut my mare so short there was nothing to nail shoes to.

Are glue-ons unknown in your end of the sandpile? Sigafoos refined them to an art from at New Bolton, but they've been around since the late 1970s.

The vet said shoes would be more harm than good at that point.

Obviously, your vet didn't know a helluva lot about remedial farriery.

She was wrapped in baby diapers, vetwrap and duct tape until some hoof grew.

Crude and much less effective than other means - but when all one has is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Boots and pads provide valuable and appropriate protection of sensitive hoof structures.

Nonsense! No boot, with or without pads, is as effective as a correctly applied horseshoe in the remediation of solar foot pain, primarily because boots cannot be made to utilize some/all of the wall as a primary weight bearing structure while fully protecting sensitized structures from environmental pressure. Any farrier with rudimentary forging skills and a knowledge of the polymers available for use as prosthetics can direct the loading of the hoof, a feat impossible to accomplish with boots.

We're talking feet cut short here - not a fractured p3. Unless of course rads did reveal a fracture, I can't see why boots would be considered half assed.

The fact that you "can't see" is eloquent testimony to your inexperience.

But in any case, my opinion is still that vet involvement should be non-negotiable.

If it were me doing it, I'd have the vet and the farrier out ASAP. Yesterday would've been nice. :)

[jack mac]

transition formula, pull shoes trim hoof right back paint hoof with hardener to kill more healthy soft tissues so it loses it sensitivity & retards sole growth , trim again apply more hardener loses more sensitivity & retard sole growth & add to formula hoof can no longer keep up regrowth to maintain wear & is now at risk of internal bruising & death of internal sort tissues with possible consequence multiple abscesses, listen to BFTers to keep trimming & painting more hardener on, result severely sore footed lame horse that cant be ridden, new "idea" administer bute, paint more hardener & conclude horse just must need longer transition period & take him out for a ride on the hard ground & gravel every week to see how his getting along with his transition .

[Auventera Two]

by Tom Stovall: Nonsense! No boot, with or without pads, is as effective as a correctly applied horseshoe in the remediation of solar foot pain, primarily because boots cannot be made to utilize some/all of the wall as a primary weight bearing structure while fully protecting sensitized structures from environmental pressure.

BS Tom. If the horse is only sore from being cut too short, boots and pads can be used for alleviation.

And yes, boots CAN be made to load only the walls and not the sole. Ever heard of Dallmer Clogs? Cavallo Simples also have a built in rim to alleviate sole pressure. Also for a few bucks you can buy firm EVA foam pads and cut them in the shape of a horseshoe then insert in any of your hoof boots. Also there are Old Mac's Sole Relief Pads:

http://carrollcountytack.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=611&osCsid=1bde38098c288179ba76bf7f01d116f4


Believe it or not Tom, there *ARE* alternatives to horse shoes.

If the owner wants to put on shoes - fine. But if she wants to try boots - there *ARE* options.

[JHUshoer20]

Vickey, Vickey, Vickey,
Haven't you yet learned not to bring a knife to a gunfight?

I expect you'll soon be relegated to "Deletia":lol:
George

[Auventera Two]

transition formula, pull shoes trim hoof right back paint hoof with hardener to kill more healthy soft tissues so it loses it sensitivity & retards sole growth , trim again apply more hardener loses more sensitivity & retard sole growth & add to formula hoof can no longer keep up regrowth to maintain wear & is now at risk of internal bruising & death of internal sort tissues with possible consequence multiple abscesses, listen to BFTers to keep trimming & painting more hardener on, result severely sore footed lame horse that cant be ridden, new "idea" administer bute, paint more hardener & conclude horse just must need longer transition period & take him out for a ride on the hard ground & gravel every week to see how his getting along with his transition .

WRONG. No one here told this person to trim her horse!! Absolutely NOT.

Trimming and "sole hardners" is the LAST thing I would do!! :eek:

[Auventera Two]

Vickey, Vickey, Vickey,
Haven't you yet learned not to bring a knife to a gunfight?

I expect you'll soon be relegated to "Deletia":lol:
George

He can Deletia till his fingers dry up and fall off. The point remains - there are alternatives to horseshoes, whether farriers want to admit it or not!

I will never tell a horse owner what to decide: shoes/no shoes. But it is a FACT that there are many hoof boots on the market with many different designs, different purposes, different materials, and different uses. And it is also a FACT that some of them provide total sole relief. To post otherwise is incorrect.

I have used OM sole relief pads and can verify that they do in fact provide excellent sole relief. You can clearly see where the wall loaded on the rim and the sole of the pad is clean as a baby's butt.

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

Hi again everyone.

So my horse couldn't walk today....this was his second "barefoot" trim and went as poorly as the last (two different farriers) one, where he was so sore he was on stallrest for 4-5 days plus bute.

I am really trying hard to "stick it out" until his feet toughen up, as it was super hard to justify $100+ trim/resets for a horse that has been out of ridden work for almost 4 months. However, seeing him today, hobbling like an old man, shaking because he hurt to stand on the interlocking flooring.....I'm super duper tempted to call the farrier right back tomorrow and tack some shoes back on him. I can't stand seeing him like this!!

He could walk around in his stall seemingly okay (it was very cushy today thankfully), and with the exception of the "this one hurts the most" where there was some heat in the foot and along the leg.

I've been putting the venus turpentine on him, but it doesn't seem to help much.

Is putting shoes back on him (at least fronts!) an option when he's sore?

Could you post pictures of the hooves? Side, sole, and heel shots?

Who is doing the trimming? Is the person barefoot certified? What has the trimming process looked like both times...what was done?

My initial reaction is to get the horse comfortable asap with the use of boots and pads. I have a hard time believing the credibility of the trimmers you've been using if they had not mentioned the use of boots. I also have a HUGE issue with supposed barefoot trimmers causing a horse to be significantly lame. As a general rule, a horse should always move off better and be more comfortable after a trim. After the intial shoe pulling, supportive ground (sand is awesome, as it conforms better to the bottom of the hoof than shavings) or boots help increase comfort. I would call up your timmer to let them know what's going on with your horse.

My second line of thought is- stalling? Although it's possible to transition to barefoot and stall at the same time, it's counterproductive. The healing process takes much longer, as everytime the horse is stalled, it prevents hoof function. The hoof needs constant, low level impact movement to get the "juices" flowing and help the internal structures, such as the lateral cartilages and digital cushion, become robust and resilient.

What diet is the horse on? A diet high in NSCs will adversely affect the horse's hooves. I know it's controversial, but I would suggest pulling him off of all grain and feeding either beet pulp or BOSS, or both. It would also be wise to have your hay tested, and go ahead and soak the hay to reduce sugars. An hour in cold water or half an hour in hot.

Venice turpentine is useless in the long run. Damage has been done by shoeing, and healing is a process that has to start on the inside. It's going to take a while for the inner structures to repair, and a combination of the correct trimming (NO removal of sole in front of the frog apex, backing and lowering heels, backing up the toe, only trimming the flaps off of the frogs- no excessive knifing that will make the frog tender, and addressing bars as needed), correct diet, and 24/7 turnout are essential to barefoot success.

Is there a barefoot community that you can call on for help and support? Have you begun to educate yourself on what it takes to go barefoot?

You can put shoes back on, and he will most likely be immediately more comfortable, but it's not going to solve the underlying problem.

Some awesome resources that you may or may not have:

http://www.safergrass.org
http://equinextion.com/id63.html
http://www.hoofrehab.com
http://www.easycareinc.com/
http://www.tribeequus.com/
http://www.ironfreehoof.com/

[Tom Stovall]

JB in gray, stuff added to save bandwidth, stuff deleted

If you had actually take then time to read the replies here, instead of going off on the "barefoot folks", you would see that at least one of us DID recommend shoes as an option

I suggest you heed your own advice. The preponderance barefoot opinion suggested boots, a demonstrably ineffective measure in the treatment of a horse that has been trimmed too short.

In part, your contribution was:
Ignorance (meant in the true sense!) is often a big reason why more horses aren't barefoot...

In reality, ignorance - lack of knowledge - is the reason folks shoe some horses that don't need shoeing and pull the shoes off some horses that need shoeing. Absent some pathology, the horse's DNA, environment, and use determines the need for shoes; given the presence of some pathology, a bare foot or boot is seldom as effective as the correct application of a specialized appliance in the treatment/palliation of pathologies affecting the hoof.

I realize the preceding is contrary to barefoot dogma, but reality is often contrary to dogma. :)

[jack mac]

WRONG. No one here told this person to trim her horse!! Absolutely NOT.

Trimming and "sole hardners" is the LAST thing I would do!! :eek: your beloved old mac boots were thought up by a guy in Tas Australia, i call him a guy & not a farrier as his work as his farrier & skills sucked big big time & as do all of theses clowns over here who couldnt shoe a horse properly to save there life in the first place, now run around beating the drum of the bare foot brigade, calming shoes are bad for horses hooves, they state this with confidants, because when it came to there crippling incompetent work anything then a shoe applied by them would be better.

[LMH]

Boots work great for a horse trimmed too short.:confused: Why wouldn't they?

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two

BS Tom. If the horse is only sore from being cut too short, boots and pads can be used for alleviation.

A competent farrier is not limited by a lack of relevant skills and materials to using less effective means.

And yes, boots CAN be made to load only the walls and not the sole.

No ma'am, the salient point is that boots cannot be made to direct loading of the hoof capsule. If you have any doubts, ask your diploma mill guru why directed loading is an extremely important factor when palliating solar pain.

Ever heard of Dallmer Clogs? Cavallo Simples also have a built in rim to alleviate sole pressure.

No boot is capable of completely alleviating sole pressure or directed loading.

Also for a few bucks you can buy firm EVA foam pads and cut them in the shape of a horseshoe then insert in any of your hoof boots. Also there are Old Mac's Sole Relief Pads:

LMAO! Your argument presumes a boots and foam is somehow as effective as a shoe (often in combination with various pads and polymers) in the relief of the pain caused by inept trimming, something most assuredly not in evidence and contrary to the experience anyone who has had to treat many such presentations.

Believe it or not Tom, there *ARE* alternatives to horse shoes.

When a horse needs shoes, any alternative is second best. Why settle for second best?

If the owner wants to put on shoes - fine. But if she wants to try boots - there *ARE* options.

Sure there are options. If one has the necessary skills, one can apply shoes, the most effective means of treatment/palliation; if one lacks the necessary skills, one is forced to apply less effective means, such as hoof boots, taped on diapers, foam pads, and similar stuff. :)

[JB]

JB in gray, stuff added to save bandwidth, stuff deleted

If you had actually take then time to read the replies here, instead of going off on the "barefoot folks", you would see that at least one of us DID recommend shoes as an option

I suggest you heed your own advice. The preponderance barefoot opinion suggested boots, a demonstrably ineffective measure in the treatment of a horse that has been trimmed too short.
Believe it or not, I DID read things first. Your statement was a broad sweeping one, mine was not. Your broad sweeping statement missed the fact that not every pro-barefoot-but-not-anti-shoe reply neglected to mention shoeing as a potential alternative to this situation.

In part, your contribution was:
Ignorance (meant in the true sense!) is often a big reason why more horses aren't barefoot...

In reality, ignorance - lack of knowledge - is the reason folks shoe some horses that don't need shoeing and pull the shoes off some horses that need shoeing.
So? I wasn't talking about the other way. Yes, it IS ignorance that causes some people to shoe some horses "just because". "Just because I'm riding him", "Just because I'm jumping him". But I was talking specifically about people who don't hesitate to slap shoes back on because the horse is sore when the shoes are off, proclaiming "see, this horse can't ever go barefoot!" without EVER even thinking that perhaps, just maybe, it's the trim that is sucking, and they go on their merry way with unbalanced, shod feet.

I realize the preceding is contrary to barefoot dogma, but reality is often contrary to dogma. :)
You are so stuck in your ways about what "us" barefooters think, despite MANY of us on these many recent threads saying that yes, there are times when shoes are necessary. You just can't get it that someone can be pro barefoot but not anti shoe. That just means you have a reduction in things to complain about.

[JB]

Boots work great for a horse trimmed too short.:confused: Why wouldn't they?

Well apparently not, according to, well, you know... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[grayarabs]

Waiting for photos. You said chopped off toes. Were they backed up?
Or were they cut from underneath? Big difference. The front of the hooves - bottom/sole should have been left completely alone. If any part of the sole was removed this area - you are asking for a sore horse. (Sole should not be removed for that matter anywhere on the hoof on a barefoot horse - particularly one newly out of shoes).
If there is any height to the heel that compounds the problem. Take lots of photos - hopefully folks here can give you an idea of how to help. Asking again - don't remember -
horse is the most sore day after trim - then gets better? I have seen a farrier that specializes in QH's trim the TB's at our barn. He leaves the heels - regardless high or underrun - does not touch them. Every trim he nips into sole at toe - removing a lot of sole with the wall. We find the clippings - one solid piece each hoof - wall and sole attached - lots of sole. Horse lame for weeks. Frustrating to observe. Friend and I took over trimming - left sole alone - backed up toes - backed up and lowered heels - horse fine. The trim makes the difference. Again - good luck - and please update.

[HiddenStars826]

I'd be looking into something if the horse was significantly more sore on the same 2 hooves that lost shoes in the field. Perhaps something occured while he was shoe-less unintentionally that got worse when the other feet were bare as well. Compensating, perhaps.

Let's not turn this into a snarky barefoot vs. shoes debate, and instead stick to the original post. Enough threads have turned into trainwrecks from this topic. It doesn't help the OP any.

Any pics to show us? That might help get some ideas on whats happening.

[Tom Stovall]

'[r.oo and l.ulu] in gray, deletia

You can put shoes back on, and he will most likely be immediately more comfortable, but it's not going to solve the underlying problem.

In a nutshell, this statment epitomizes the idiocy and illogic of the barefoot movement. The underlying, overlying, smack-dam-in-the-middle, "problem" is that the horse is in pain! Who gives a rat's tookus if the OP has somehow failed to adhere to the tenets of barefoot dogma? The horse is in freaking pain and damn near anybody who knows which way to turn a nail (or apply a glue-on) can fix the problem as best it can be fixed.

[grayarabpony]

WW Queen, coffin bone fracture can present the same as a bad bruise or abscess -- horse may be 3-legged lame worst case.

Treatment would depend on where and how a fracture is -- the hoof wall acts as a cast so that usually there is no treatment but time off.

[CookiePony]

The horse is in freaking pain and damn near anybody who knows which way to turn a nail (or apply a glue-on) can fix the problem as best it can be fixed.


Well said, my man! I nominate the farrier who did this work:
Left Front:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Left%20Front/DSC00374.jpg
Right Front:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/DSC00367.jpg

[Daydream Believer]

Boots work great for a horse trimmed too short.:confused: Why wouldn't they?

Of course they do. We folks who are open minded and have actually used boots know it. Consider WHO is saying they don't work. ;)

[WW_Queen]

Thanks for the information everyone.

I will try and post pics on Sunday (have to find/charge the digital camera first). I will also post some video, as I need to properly document this.

I picked up a message from the vet tech, saying she was out at around 9:00am yesterday and although he definitely walked out stiff, it was consistent with how she'd seen him in the past. She noted he was sore backing up (as usual) but did not see that he was in pain.

*sigh* Of course, the guy who was helping with turn-in's said he looked funny but nothing bad. :rolleyes: I can't trust anyone right now! :uhoh:

He did look better today, but still inching his way around. I bribed him with one of "Hanks Hanging Balls" (those molasses/sweet treats) and tried to get him out into the snow. Once he took 4-5 steps, he was walking almost normal, to the point where he was practically pulling me around! (He had a 1/2 g of bute yesterday but that's it.)

Once we got back to the barn though, he didn't want to come in. The interlocking must hurt his feet something fierce.

I'm going to reevaluate tomorrow and Sunday, then most likely call both vet and farrier on Monday if there is no improvement. If I can put shoes on him (at least fronts) ASAP then I will. For now he's on stall rest and a bit of bute, and will turn him out as soon as possible.

[Tom Stovall]

Daydream Believer in gray

Re: Do boots alleviate the pain of being cut too short?

Of course they do. We folks who are open minded and have actually used boots know it.

How does one define an "open mind" in barefoot newspeak? Is inexperience a requirement? Is gullibility a prerequisite? On several occasions, I've pulled boots off horses that were crippled from being cut too short, applied shoes, and every horse walked off better than it walked up. Perhaps I've been lucky. Then again, perhaps boots are not as effective as shoes in the treatment of solar pain. Whatever the answer, unlike yourself, I speak on the basis of considerable personal experience, not dogma.

Consider WHO is saying they don't work. ;)

Please do.

[Daydream Believer]

Tom,

I have seen the opposite...sore footed horses put into boots and pad inserts walk off 100% sound and then a week later no longer need the boots. Horses that could not hold a shoe with nails did not need expensive and hard to keep in place glue ons. I speak on my own experience as well and actually using the boots as a therapy and not just as a patch.

"Open mind" is not anyone's newspeak but merely those of us who are willing to try new ideas, evaluate the results without preconceived notions, and not just stick to the old ways. You have your way and I have mine and someone else has their own path. I respect your position but find it sad that you respect no one else's.

[Lauren!]

Can someone who thinks boots are a bad idea please explain why? Not being snarky in the least... I've used boots on my own horse when they were sore and they seemed to help a lot... the horse was instantly more comfortable and was eventually fine with nothing on his feet. I don't see how this is a bad thing :confused:

I do think the horse might also be made comfortable with shoes and/or pads (particularly pour-ins) as another option. I do not think they're the only option worth trying though (based on my own horses and experience, not the opinion or theory of any farrier or barefoot person). Glue-on might help if there's not enough to nail into, but aren't Sigafoos (and I know there are onther glue-ons, but those were mentioned and I've heard they're quite good) reallllly expensive?? The OP expressed some concern about costs, if other more moderately priced options are available it might be good to suggest those as well.

[CookiePony]

On several occasions, I've pulled boots off horses that were crippled from being cut too short, applied shoes, and every horse walked off better than it walked up. Perhaps I've been lucky. Then again, perhaps boots are not as effective as shoes in the treatment of solar pain. Whatever the answer, unlike yourself, I speak on the basis of considerable personal experience, not dogma.


The plural of anecdote is not data.

[Tom Stovall]

CookiePony in gray

The plural of anecdote is not data.

True, but I'm arrogant enough to think that 50+ years personal experience trumps hell out of relative inexperience and a lemminglike adherence to barefoot dogma. I'm a big fan of stuff that works and boots simply don't work as well as shoes; if it were otherwise, I'd have used boots. And, unlike the vocal proponents of boots, I can choose one or the other, I'm not limited [edit] to a single choice. :)

[BuddyRoo]

Okay so boots aren't shoes. But when you want a temporary solution for an owner who is not able to shoe or remove a shoe, would boots not be a good TEMPORARY solution? Honest question.

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

'[r.oo and l.ulu] in gray, deletia

You can put shoes back on, and he will most likely be immediately more comfortable, but it's not going to solve the underlying problem.

In a nutshell, this statment epitomizes the idiocy and illogic of the barefoot movement. The underlying, overlying, smack-dam-in-the-middle, "problem" is that the horse is in pain! Who gives a rat's tookus if the OP has somehow failed to adhere to the tenets of barefoot dogma? The horse is in freaking pain and damn near anybody who knows which way to turn a nail (or apply a glue-on) can fix the problem as best it can be fixed.

Shoes don't fix the problem.

The pain certainly needs to be addressed and a boots/pads combo would do well to address this. If additional pain relieving is needed, there's always bute (not my favorite) or herbal remedies and homeopathy. Hope those last two didn't send you into seizures.

My main concern is WHY this horse is in so much pain. From the sound of the op's posts, the trimmers involved with this horse's hoof care are not doing their job correctly. I would also place a huge emphasis on the diet and lifestyle of this horse, as it goes hand-in-hand with healthy hooves.

Constant (or at least more than usual) movement and a low NSC diet are absolutely critical to having functional, bare hooves. That cannot, cannot, cannot be ignored.

Attack the underlying root issues, don't cover up the problem with outdated and conventional methods that seek to get rid of the symptoms.

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

Well said, my man! I nominate the farrier who did this work:
Left Front:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Left%20Front/DSC00374.jpg
Right Front:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/DSC00367.jpg

If those are supposed to be examples of good farriery work, I have to respectfully disagree. :no:

[HiddenStars826]

Well said, my man! I nominate the farrier who did this work:
Left Front:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Left%20Front/DSC00374.jpg
Right Front:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/DSC00367.jpg

Is that a joke? Or to be taken seriously? Honestly, can you please explain to the lay-person why this considered good, from a farriers standpoint? Assuming you are serious, I haven't seen that considered as being "good" work. Unless, of course, the "before" was much much worse, then maybe I'd say it was an improvement. But if someone could educate me, then I'd be all for it.

[Tom Stovall]

Lauren! in gray, deletia

Can someone who thinks boots are a bad idea please explain why? Not being snarky in the least... I've used boots on my own horse when they were sore and they seemed to help a lot... the horse was instantly more comfortable and was eventually fine with nothing on his feet. I don't see how this is a bad thing :confused:

Please see post #26. It's not that boots aren't effective to some degree, it's that shoes are a great deal more effective in the alleviation of solar pain because shoes can be manipulated so there is absolutely no possibility of sole pressure - and the worse the butchery, the better shoes work. A shoe can be nailed or glued to the wall or a polymeric prosthesis, caused to load/unload at designated points, used to manipulate phalangeal angulation, and used in conjunction with pads and pour-ins to create or remove sole or frog pressure.

Put another way, shoes are infinitely more versatile than boots - and therein lies shoes' superior effectiveness in the treatment/palliation of hoof butchery. :)

[Lauren!]

;2994924']If those are supposed to be examples of good farriery work, I have to respectfully disagree. :no:

I think it was a joke in response to Tom's "damn near anybody who knows which way to turn a nail (or apply a glue-on) can fix the problem as best it can be fixed". CookiePony has barefoot horses, I took her point as that some farriers are just not worth being called such.

Personally, I would have used the link to EqTrainer's recent rehab thread with the scary hoof pictures (the shoes/trim the horse came with, NOT EqT's! work!), but I digress. Some farriers do great work, and several who post here fall into that category IMO... but there is some SCARY work being done on hooves out there as well!

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

Shoes are more versatile? :lol: So something that is nailed onto the hoof, versus something that can be taken on and off is...more versatile? :lol: I can perhaps see how the different types of shoes could be seen as more versatile, but then one would have to believe the different types of shoes actually served a purpose.

Hooves were never meant to be peripherally loaded, like through the use of shoes. The walls were never meant to bear the weight alone. The sole, bars, and frog should all partake in the weight bearing process. Removing pressure from the sole and/or frog removes it from its role as part of the hoof.

If the horse is experiencing solar pain, or has a tender frog, the REASON for it needs to be sought after. Perhaps the horse needs to build calloused sole to protect P3 high within the hoof capsule and by association remove the cause for solar pain? Maybe a too sugary diet is causing inflammation that is causing the horse to be sore? Maybe the horse has thrush and needs that addressed before the frog can return to its healthy state?

From reading your posts it sounds as though you advocate total removal of pressure on the sole and frogs?

[Tom Stovall]

BuddyRoo in gray

Okay so boots aren't shoes. But when you want a temporary solution for an owner who is not able to shoe or remove a shoe, would boots not be a good TEMPORARY solution? Honest question.

Honest answer: ABSOLUTELY! I never said boots weren't effective, I said they weren't as effective as correctly applied shoes. Failing boots, construction grade Styrofoam and duct tape will work; failing that, knocking apart a cheap Styrofoam cooler and duct tape or duct taping a diaper to the foot will work better'n nothing.

[JB]

CookiePony in gray

The plural of anecdote is not data.

True, but I'm arrogant enough to think that 50+ years personal experience trumps hell out of relative inexperience and a lemminglike adherence to barefoot dogma. I'm a big fan of stuff that works and boots simply don't work as well as shoes; if it were otherwise, I'd have used boots. And, unlike the vocal proponents of boots, I can choose one or the other, I'm not limited by ineptitude to a single choice. :)

I get it now! The experiences of the inexperienced don't count!

[WW_Queen]

;2994924']If those are supposed to be examples of good farriery work, I have to respectfully disagree. :no:

Okay, compared to what my horse currently has, those ARE not bad. At least there is heel as opposed to what 5 farriers seemingly could not do.

The biggest problem I have with my horse's feet is that he is 17.2hh, and I've seen people whittle his feet down to 15hh "tiny" horse feet size. Yes, I guess this is why I can't stay with one farrier.....too many bad shoeing jobs. I hate to think I am/are becoming one of those "high-maintence" owners that other farriers always talk about...but if it's to *this* point where he's suffering, it's more than overdue that I step in, vet suggestions or not.

I'm starting to think an MRI or ultrasound might help (re: front end/stifle lameness) as digital radiographs have come up nothing so far.

[Tom Stovall]

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Shoes are more versatile? :lol: So something that is nailed onto the hoof, versus something that can be taken on and off is...more versatile? :lol:

Assuming recent hoof butchery and no medical reson, why would anyone but a sadist wish to remove the object that is responsible for alleviating a horse's pain?

I can perhaps see how the different types of shoes could be seen as more versatile, but then one would have to believe the different types of shoes actually served a purpose.

No ma'am, one need only have a rudimentary knowledge of equid anatomy and physiology to understand that some horses need shoes to do whatever they do as best they can.

Hooves were never meant to be peripherally loaded, like through the use of shoes.

LMAO! Meant by whom? Please spare me the barefoot newspeak, it will merely engender laughter.

The walls were never meant to bear the weight alone.

Again: Meant by whom? The wall is a primary weight bearing structure, as are the frog and bars.

The sole, bars, and frog should all partake in the weight bearing process.

The sole is a secondary weight bearing structure.

Removing pressure from the sole and/or frog removes it from its role as part of the hoof.

Other than veterinary applications, I've never seen a shoe that removed the sole or frog from their primary functions: Have you?

If the horse is experiencing solar pain, or has a tender frog, the REASON for it needs to be sought after.

As a farrier, I figure my job is to stop the pain by the most effective mechanical means possible, not to waste time in idle speculation about the horse's husbandry.

Perhaps the horse needs to build calloused sole to protect P3 high within the hoof capsule and by association remove the cause for solar pain?

Chances are, somebody got carried away with their hoof knife, but it's too late to worry about that now.

Maybe a too sugary diet is causing inflammation that is causing the horse to be sore? Maybe the horse has thrush and needs that addressed before the frog can return to its healthy state?

I'm not into conjecture, I'm into fixing the problem - and the problem is pain.

From reading your posts it sounds as though you advocate total removal of pressure on the sole and frogs?

If a horse is sore because some butcher whacked out too much sole (I've seen 'em come into a clinic bleeding on all four corners) then a wide web shoe and a hospital plate is pretty much SOP. When sensitive tissue is exposed, complete removal of environmental pressure is both indicated and instantly effective. As advertised, I'm into stuff that works and I don't have a helluva lot of time for wannabe gurus and stable pundits. :)

[WW_Queen]

Here is a link to some work in early October.....when we were building muscle as per the vet's instruction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NxUhF3PfTw

You can see he's holding his back and not reaching up and under himself. He was never "resistant" per say (okay, not including the other video where he does this little spook sideways about 3/4 of the way into the video...that video was taken earlier when he was on Recovery EQ/HA and I swear that *all* of my rides were like that one for about 6 weeks) as in bucking or swapping leads, but it's pretty clear he's uncomfortable.

To be honest, after everything we've been through since then, I would take that "somewhat sore" (1/5) lameness versus what we have now (4/5 and unrideable).

When you see the 2006 dressage video, you can see the stiffness (granted, he had been off for almost a week when that was taken). That was when I kept saying "Hey, he's not acting like himself" with a big, reaching stride but people kept telling me I was crazy.

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

Horses are supposed to have low heels, but where those heels are matters. Heels that have run forward may appear "low" and as if there's no heel, but instead the heel needs to be backed up so that it is supporting the bony column. The horse is designed to land heel first, with the structures within the back of the hoof absorbing the load (Robert Bowker's research has explored this)- much harder for the horse to do if he has stiletto's (high heels) or run forward heels. It "locks" the hoof up and prevents the back of the hoof from truly functioning.

Pictures:

link (http://equinextion.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=560&linkpath=http://equinextion.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/typicallyshodfoot.jpg&target=tlx_new&title=REPUTABLE FARRIER WORK) vs. link (http://equinextion.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=560&linkpath=http://equinextion.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/performancebarefoottrim.jpg&target=tlx_new)

Before and After (http://equinextion.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=560&linkpath=http://equinextion.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/faithbeforeaftermap.jpg&target=tlx_new)

Heel supporting bony column (http://equinextion.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=560&linkpath=http://equinextion.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/gunupmap.jpg&target=tlx_new)

[Lauren!]

Is it possible his feet are just really messed up and that's the cause of his lameness? Not that any/all lameness is hoof based, but maybe his feet are contributing to, if not causing, the problem and fixing them would help? Of course, you have to find someone to help you do that... I don't know how much faith you have in your current farrier.

If you do want to try boots you can get them online at www.easycareinc.com ... I believe they ship to Canada :) Just measure very carefully and pick the size closest to the hoof measurement... get the smallest size that will fit his measurements( I'd also get some 12mm comfort pads if you go this route). I've also put hoof oil on the horse's hoof wall then stood him on paper to get an outline, then measured that... you don't really need to do that, but it's something I did to double check myself. There's also detailed measuring instructions on the website.


As a farrier, I figure my job is to stop the pain by the most effective mechanical means possible, not to waste time in idle speculation about the horse's husbandry.

I understand that, but shouldn't SOMEONE figure out if there's an underlying reason, what it is, and what can be done to correct it? Maybe it's not the farrier's job, but it is the owner's, and sometimes they turn to farriers, trimmers, or other professionals for guidance. In this case the reason may be that someone went sole-trimming-crazy and now the horse is just plain sore, but there could be other, more subtle causes in other horses.

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

Taking into consideration all of the information you provided behind the video, I would not consider his movement to be normal. He's landing toe first (characterized by the sand "plumes" when his front feet contact the ground) and his overall body seems tense. Definitely not fluid, as you've said.

I did have a video saved in my favorites of one lady's horses who truly epitomize what I believe to be the end product of correct trimming and a natural lifestyle. Extremely fluid, supple, and obvious heel first landings. I'm frustrated I can't find it, but here's a video that shows heel first landings (note that, if I remember correctly, this horse was still in transition at the time this video was taken):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K0_QqzF4XpY

[Tom Stovall]

Lauren! in gray, deletia

I understand that, but shouldn't SOMEONE figure out if there's an underlying reason, what it is, and what can be done to correct it?

Sure, but the first order of business is to stop the pain! After the pain is mitigated, one can seek the cause if it's not evident.

Maybe it's not the farrier's job, but it is the owner's, and sometimes they turn to farriers, trimmers, or other professionals for guidance. In this case the reason may be that someone went sole-trimming-crazy and now the horse is just plain sore, but there could be other, more subtle causes in other horses.

Most often, if a horse is sore after being trimmed/shod, whoever wielded the rasp/nippers/knife/hammer did something wrong.

[CookiePony]

I think it was a joke in response to Tom's "damn near anybody who knows which way to turn a nail (or apply a glue-on) can fix the problem as best it can be fixed". CookiePony has barefoot horses, I took her point as that some farriers are just not worth being called such.

Personally, I would have used the link to EqTrainer's recent rehab thread with the scary hoof pictures (the shoes/trim the horse came with, NOT EqT's! work!), but I digress. Some farriers do great work, and several who post here fall into that category IMO... but there is some SCARY work being done on hooves out there as well!

Oh, I forgot about EqTrainer's thread! Now there's a guy who would be ideal for helping out WW's horse. The horse in that thread looked much better before the idiotic, illogical, dogmatic, gullible, lemminglike barefooters got to him. :p

http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=130669

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

Is it possible his feet are just really messed up and that's the cause of his lameness? Not that any/all lameness is hoof based, but maybe his feet are contributing to, if not causing, the problem and fixing them would help?

Absolutely, undoubtedly YES!

The second question might be debatable depending on what lameness you're talking about. It doesn't seem reasonable to think that common leg issues should be the norm. Tendon issues shouldn't be nearly as prevalent as they are. Abscesses shouldn't be as prevalent as they are. Laminitis, founder, navicular, sidebone, ringbone, deossification of the coffin bone, ossified cartilages, weakened digital cushions....NONE of these issues should be as prevalent as they are.

From a bigger perspective, why couldn't these ultimately result from hooves that haven't been trimmed correctly, and a lifestyle that is so completely removed from what horses were physiologically designed to live? Shouldn't that set us up to have horses that need bubble wrapping? Is it really genetics, or are we their undoing?

...[/soapbox] :o

[jack mac]

;2995014']Horses are supposed to have low heels, but where those heels are matters. Heels that have run forward may appear "low" and as if there's no heel, but instead the heel needs to be backed up so that it is supporting the bony column. The horse is designed to land heel first, with the structures within the back of the hoof absorbing the load (Robert Bowker's research has explored this)- much harder for the horse to do if he has stiletto's (high heels) or run forward heels. It "locks" the hoof up and prevents the back of the hoof from truly functioning.

Pictures:

link (http://equinextion.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=560&linkpath=http://equinextion.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/typicallyshodfoot.jpg&target=tlx_new&title=REPUTABLE FARRIER WORK) vs. link (http://equinextion.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=560&linkpath=http://equinextion.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/performancebarefoottrim.jpg&target=tlx_new)

Before and After (http://equinextion.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=560&linkpath=http://equinextion.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/faithbeforeaftermap.jpg&target=tlx_new)

Heel supporting bony column (http://equinextion.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=560&linkpath=http://equinextion.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/gunupmap.jpg&target=tlx_new) absolute garbage & if you mist it ill say it again absolute garbage & totally WRONG Dr Bowker is a self promoting opportunist , his research if you would call it that has more holes in it then a Calderon & about as much scientific bases as my gumboot sitting at the back door :rolleyes:

[Lookout]

Doubtless, the barefoot folks will rise up in arms and encourage you to apply half-arsed measures like boots and sole paints instead of shoeing, but it's too late for that now: your horse is evidently too short and his feet need as much mechanical protection as can possibly be applied, right now. Or, you can futz about interminably with half-arsed measures in an effort to force your horse to overcome someone's ineptitude.

Your call.

Nailing a shoe onto an already too short foot sounds pretty darn painful too.

There is a boot out there with high cushioning value with different grades of deep, cushy pads. I think it may be 'Soft Ride' or something similar. One approach to try, if you don't do styrofoam/duct tape or something like that.
If you can't wait for boots to come (and it sounds like he can't) you could probably find Davis or similar boots locally and then get some kind of deep squishy foam for the inside. I can't imagine that nailing a nail into that foot right now wouldn't cause even more pain and make things worse.

As grayarabs mentioned, the key to the problem seems to be in your description of the trim, ie the toe being 'chopped' off. Most likely it was trimmed from the bottom (as farriers are wont to do). This leaves oh so little thickness and cushioning right under the main weightbearing part of the coffin bone toe. If indeed this is the case you would do well to restore it temporarily with boots/padding and find a better farrier or barefoot trimmer who will not remove this necessary protection.

[jack mac]

Nailing a shoe onto an already too short foot sounds pretty darn painful too.

There is a boot out there with high cushioning value with different grades of deep, cushy pads. I think it may be 'Soft Ride' or something similar. One approach to try, if you don't do styrofoam/duct tape or something like that.
If you can't wait for boots to come (and it sounds like he can't) you could probably find Davis or similar boots locally and then get some kind of deep squishy foam for the inside. I can't imagine that nailing a nail into that foot right now wouldn't cause even more pain and make things worse.LMAO there are some competent farriers in this world that are quite capable unfortunately the title of farrier is thrown around to loosely by the imposters who have never been trained by some one experienced that's the problem, its no different then the brigade who buy an apron rasp & a paring knife, do a week end course on butchery of the hoof & clam to be a bare foot trimming professionals :rolleyes:

[JHUshoer20]

absolute garbage & if you mist it ill say it again absolute garbage & totally WRONG Dr Bowker is a self promoting opportunist , his research if you would call it that has more holes in it then a Calderon & about as much scientific bases as my gumboot sitting at the back door :rolleyes:
Absolutely Jack,
I'd pay very little mind to anything coming from Dr Sole Callous either.:(

Glad to have you back my Aussie friend;)
George

[goeslikestink]

Vickey, Vickey, Vickey,
Haven't you yet learned not to bring a knife to a gunfight?

I expect you'll soon be relegated to "Deletia":lol:
George

hahaha

[goeslikestink]

Here is a link to some work in early October.....when we were building muscle as per the vet's instruction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NxUhF3PfTw

You can see he's holding his back and not reaching up and under himself. He was never "resistant" per say (okay, not including the other video where he does this little spook sideways about 3/4 of the way into the video...that video was taken earlier when he was on Recovery EQ/HA and I swear that *all* of my rides were like that one for about 6 weeks) as in bucking or swapping leads, but it's pretty clear he's uncomfortable.

To be honest, after everything we've been through since then, I would take that "somewhat sore" (1/5) lameness versus what we have now (4/5 and unrideable).

When you see the 2006 dressage video, you can see the stiffness (granted, he had been off for almost a week when that was taken). That was when I kept saying "Hey, he's not acting like himself" with a big, reaching stride but people kept telling me I was crazy.

i hate to say this but the horse was lame in the video--and by riding a horse with a lame issue you are going to do more damage with legs mussles and tissues than if you had rested and left it for it to heal and then slowly worked the horse over programme of in hand work to include ground poles to build up other mussles and tissues to support the damaged one before any ridden work
i dont get how people can ride a horse when its lame and not be able to feel it and get off
this horse has been sore for a long time - but might not be due to sore feet along might be due to bone spavins -- as the horse is unsound front end

and i dont get how you can blame a farrier for xyz shoes or no shoes when you riding a lame horse
i find some people will ride a horse becuase they so intent on riding regardless of condition of there mount as riding is there top thing the freedom there space and they pay for that privledge if that was my horse and i wanted to do xyz then the horse comes first as i cant do xyz unless hes fit and able

you openly admit the horse has been bucking and swapping legs this is not just a sore foot issue of a trim or shoe shoe job this is a serious pain issue and needs looking at properly the horse is screamming at you hes in trouble --


let me put it in laymens terms-- that video was taken in oct 07 its now feb o8
and you ve been riding him - this is not a sore foot issue this is a serious issue going on and you arnt helping him at all and yet the horse is willing to work for you and sufer iin silence

hate to be harsh but you got to realise to stop



if a horse is off for any reason then its lame -so get off dont ride him

[jack mac]

WRONG. No one here told this person to trim her horse!! Absolutely NOT.

Trimming and "sole hardners" is the LAST thing I would do!! :eek:didn't say any one on this thread did, but someone must of filled this poor girls head with enough bare foot nonsense & propaganda for her to take the shoes off her horse & let them cripple it , now let me see would that of been a fully certified farrier or would that of been a bare foot trimmer?????

[jack mac]

Oh, I forgot about EqTrainer's thread! Now there's a guy who would be ideal for helping out WW's horse. The horse in that thread looked much better before the idiotic, illogical, dogmatic, gullible, lemminglike barefooters got to him. :p

http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=130669By all means bring that thread up again, you wont find me George or Tom S arguing NB is a great shoeing model to work to, far from it, funny though i find a lot of bare foot propagators suggesting that if you have to shoe your horse for any reason it should be NB, i think its that misleading sales pitching term natural that gets the sucker in every time.

[jack mac]

(smile*)

[Tom Stovall]

Daydream Believer in gray

Re: Correctly applied shoes are superior to boots in relieving solar pain

I have seen the opposite...sore footed horses put into boots and pad inserts walk off 100% sound and then a week later no longer need the boots.

I've seen sore horses painted with good sole paint walk off sound, but that doesn't mean sole paint is superior to boots or shoes when it comes to mitigating solar pain. The effects of hoof butchery can range from slightly ouchy to a blood trail and the worse the butchery, the greater the need for effective remediation. In my experience, which covers the aforementioned spectrum of hoof butchery, the most effective means of remediation is a correctly applied shoe.

Horses that could not hold a shoe with nails did not need expensive and hard to keep in place glue ons.

Where are these legions of horses with hooves so damaged they "could not hold a nail"? I've many times somehow managed to keep pads and shoes on horses with severely damaged walls using only various combinations of polymeric prostheses, clips, and two, long, skinny, nails (e.g., Mustad #6 ASVC race nails) - it's not that big of a deal.

I speak on my own experience as well and actually using the boots as a therapy and not just as a patch.

LMAO! When was the last time you pulled off a boot and applied a shoe in order to compare their efficacy?

"Open mind" is not anyone's newspeak but merely those of us who are willing to try new ideas, evaluate the results without preconceived notions, and not just stick to the old ways.

The salient point is that you have no means with which to apply shoes; thus, no means of comparison. As a trimmer, you are limited by your lack of relevant skills to trimming and the application of comparatively ineffective devices. You can't "try new ideas" such as esoteric polymers, titanium hospital plates, latest generation glue-ons, and similar stuff because you lack the necessary skills for their application. No disrespect, you're doubtless doing the best you can by your horses, but your best is simply not the most effective way of doing things.

You have your way and I have mine and someone else has their own path. I respect your position but find it sad that you respect no one else's.

As advertised, I'm a big fan of stuff that works. I respect the efforts of anyone who tries to keep a horse from hurting, but that respect does not extend to the use of inefficacious treatments when more effective means are readily available.

[LMH]

when was the last time you tried boots, Tom? And what boot was it? Did you use pads? If so what kind, thickness etc.

[Daydream Believer]

You have your way and I have mine and someone else has their own path. I respect your position but find it sad that you respect no one else's.

As advertised, I'm a big fan of stuff that works. I respect the efforts of anyone who tries to keep a horse from hurting, but that respect does not extend to the use of inefficacious treatments when more effective means are readily available.

So why not just come right out and say it? You have no respect for anyone who does not follow your path exactly and who doesn't FIRST turn to a shoe to fix a horse's problems. :confused: Get a life....you aren't worth the trouble of a point for point reply.

[JHUshoer20]

As usual Mr Stovall is right,

I'm sure him and Jack will agree with me when I say I've never seen a horse yet that I couldn't get nails into. There are reasons not to sometimes but trimmed too short is not one of them.
George

[Auventera Two]

when was the last time you tried boots, Tom? And what boot was it? Did you use pads? If so what kind, thickness etc.

He's already said on horseshoes.com that he's never put a pair of boots on a horse in his life because why would he when shoes have been proven superior. So - he's yammering on about something he has know knowledge of.

[grayarabpony]

Until a vet and or farrier (preferably 2 working together) can figure out what is going on with this horse, no one can say what's best for him. If he has under run heels and long toes, Natural Balance shoes with pads may really help him. If a large portion of his foot is bruised but the balance of his foot isn't really out of whack, boots can really help him.

[LMH]

He's already said on horseshoes.com that he's never put a pair of boots on a horse in his life because why would he when shoes have been proven superior. So - he's yammering on about something he has know knowledge of.


Well then this is a pointless debate and a waste of time.

Oh wait-most of the debates on these threads are pointless and a waste or time...I forgot.

To the OP, you have received good advice, ranging from shoes and pads, shoes, boots, etc. Use your common sense, find a 'professional' that you respect and do what feels right to you.

Personally *I* have had great success with boots and pads. When my older horse foundered 4? 5? years ago, I used boots and pads for him and they worked like a charm.

Could a shoe have worked as well? I am sure-but I personally just find it absurd to attach a shoe when a boot will work perfectly fine.

Just *my* experience so no one can really argue with it.:)

[Tom Stovall]

LMH in gray

when was the last time you tried boots, Tom?

As you know, I'm pretty well retired, but a year or so ago I had a consulting gig on a barrel horse that had abscessed. Her regular farrier was off playing team roper and referred the case to me. The attending vet had established drainage, but a bit of sensitive sole had prolapsed through the incision, causing the horse a great deal of pain - swinging leg lame. When the client called, I asked if she had any kind of boot; she said she did; I told her to put it on. If she hadn't had a boot, I would've told her to wrap it in a diaper.

I called the vet and we had a little visit to make sure we were all on the same page.

And what boot was it?

I didn't check.

Did you use pads?

No, I advised the client not to use any kind of pad. Given the horse's history, I figured sensitive sole had been exposed, which meant any kind of soft pad would've placed additional pressure on the affected area.

I pulled the boot off, cauterized the prolapsed sole, doused the affected area with Durasole, then applied a Fe shoe with a bubble forged into the web that covered the incision (similar to a shoe I've posted on this forum) to insure there was no possibility of direct environmental pressure on the affected area. No pad or packing, just a bit of cotton between the bubble and the incision. The horse walked up a 5 wearing a boot, walked off a 2 wearing a shoe, and was a 1 within 48 hours. As advertised, I'm into stuff that works. :)

[WW_Queen]

i hate to say this but the horse was lame in the video--and by riding a horse with a lame issue you are going to do more damage with legs mussles and tissues than if you had rested and left it for it to heal and then slowly worked the horse over programme of in hand work to include ground poles to build up other mussles and tissues to support the damaged one before any ridden work

and i dont get how you can blame a farrier for xyz shoes or no shoes when you riding a lame horse

you openly admit the horse has been bucking and swapping legs this is not just a sore foot issue of a trim or shoe shoe job this is a serious pain issue and needs looking at properly the horse is screamming at you hes in trouble --

let me put it in laymens terms-- that video was taken in oct 07 its now feb o8
and you ve been riding him - this is not a sore foot issue

if a horse is off for any reason then its lame -so get off dont ride him


I haven't ridden him since the end of October. The soreness and "off-ness" has been diagnosed and confirmed by three vets (all sporthorse) as a loose stifle. The secondary lameness is his SI, which he has pulled and leaves the resulting tightness. The prescription to cure the stifle problems was work in hand and under saddle at working on the bit and long and low to work the muscles.

Even his chiropractor agreed that the only way to cure it was to work through it. We had been working with cavallettis (as there are no hills in our area), walk hacks, 15-20 mins of trotting, etc.

However, since his shoes were pulled, he has shown on-off lameness due to shoeing, hence this thread on shoeing. He has not been ridden because I want to start at the bottom and then we can re-address the back/stifle issues.

I had pulled the shoes originally because it did not seem to help him, and I thought by giving him time off it would help both him and my wallet. After the last few months of trying to figure out what's best, and thanks to the suggestions on this thread, I will have the vet out on Monday just to "be sure" it's not something more complicated (which from what I've seen, I doubt). I will have some shoes put back on, and treat the foot with some of the products I've seen suggested to try and toughen up his feet before I try pulling them again.

I need to figure out how to get him (and to stay) comfortable, without spending obscene amounts of money like I have done over the last 8-9 months.

[Tom Stovall]

Daydream Believer in gray, my old stuff in brown

As advertised, I'm a big fan of stuff that works. I respect the efforts of anyone who tries to keep a horse from hurting, but that respect does not extend to the use of inefficacious treatments when more effective means are readily available.

So why not just come right out and say it? You have no respect for anyone who does not follow your path exactly and who doesn't FIRST turn to a shoe to fix a horse's problems.

Need I point out that you said that, not me?

I try to avoid the ad hominem stuff and was careful to point out that while I respect the effort, I have little respect for the use of boots because they are demonstrably ineffective in comparison to shoes when used to mitigate solar pain. Here in the hinterlands, praising effort while damning method does not imply any lack of respect for the individual making the effort.

:confused: Get a life....you aren't worth the trouble of a point for point reply.

While I can understand your frustration, I'm not responsible for your inability to defend the inherent limitations of your methods. :)

[Lookout]

As usual Mr Stovall is right,

I'm sure him and Jack will agree with me when I say I've never seen a horse yet that I couldn't get nails into. There are reasons not to sometimes but trimmed too short is not one of them.
George

I'm sure him will agree with you too.

It's possible for a human to do absolutely anything they wish to a horse, and we have seen so over the course of history. How the horse feels about is another matter altogether.

[JHUshoer20]

It's possible for a human to do absolutely anything they wish to a horse, and we have seen so over the course of history. How the horse feels about is another matter altogether.
Oh is that right? Are we compiling polling data from horses now? Batteries are dead on my crystal ball right now but if you've been talking to horses and getting their feedback perhaps you can enlighten us as to how they feel about natural bs?:sadsmile:

Or about being forced to walk on painful hooves when comfortable shoes are readily available?:(

Should make for some interesting data
George

[Daydream Believer]

Need I point out that you said that, not me?

I try to avoid the ad hominem stuff and was careful to point out that while I respect the effort, I have little respect for the use of boots because they are demonstrably ineffective in comparison to shoes when used to mitigate solar pain. Here in the hinterlands, praising effort while damning method does not imply any lack of respect for the individual making the effort.

While I can understand your frustration, I'm not responsible for your inability to defend the inherent limitations of your methods. :)

No, you said that...just not directly. It is certainly your intent. Will you deny it?

You used boots once, by your own admission, and now you've decided from this one circumstance that they are inferior to shoes in all applications? That is what I mean about not being open minded.

I am not frustrated. Just tired of wasting my time on a close minded people. ;) I have 14 tons of hay to unload and have to go, so enjoy sitting here trying to make everyone else look stupid but yourself.

[JHUshoer20]

No, you said that...just not directly. It is certainly your intent. Will you deny it?

You used boots once, by your own admission, and now you've decided from this one circumstance that they are inferior to shoes in all applications? That is what I mean about not being open minded.

I am not frustrated. Just tired of wasting my time on a close minded people. ;) I have 14 tons of hay to unload and have to go, so enjoy sitting here trying to make everyone else look stupid but yourself.
Mr Stovall is of course more than capable of replying but till he gets here I'll remind you all that tied on sandals and boots of various types were used in Ancient China, Mongolia, Greece, Early Rome, as well as by the Huns and such.

Is nothing new about them either. When technology evolved to the point that nail on iron shoes were in widespread use, the tie or lace on hippo sandals faded into history because they were replaced by something better.

Shoes replaced devices like that no less than 2000 years ago and are still superior today
George

[Tom Stovall]

Daydream Believer in gray

No, you said that...just not directly. It is certainly your intent. Will you deny it?

LMAO, my intent is exactly as stated. What part of my praising effort while damning method do you find to be beyond your comprehension? Are effort and method synonymous?

You used boots once, by your own admission, and now you've decided from this one circumstance that they are inferior to shoes in all applications? That is what I mean about not being open minded.

Allow me to correct your misconception: While I have advised clients to use boots as a stop-gap measure on several occasions, I have NEVER used a boot to mitigate solar pain, simply because I have the ability to use demonstrably more efficacious methods. Unlike yourself, I have a choice.

I am not frustrated. Just tired of wasting my time on a close minded people.

Your time is wasted in attempting to defend the indefensible.

I have 14 tons of hay to unload and have to go, so enjoy sitting here trying to make everyone else look stupid but yourself.

Now that you mention it, it is kinda funny to watch you do to yourself that which you accuse me of doing. :)

[Lookout]

Oh is that right? Are we compiling polling data from horses now? Batteries are dead on my crystal ball right now but if you've been talking to horses and getting their feedback perhaps you can enlighten us as to how they feel about natural bs?:sadsmile:

Or about being forced to walk on painful hooves when comfortable shoes are readily available?:(

Should make for some interesting data
George

You mean you're not interested in what the horse thinks?
If you can't tell what a horse is saying or thinking without a crystal ball, you shouldn't be working around horses.

[S1969]

Wow. Well, I really am not going to get into the fray re: barefoot v. shoes. But I have a longtime barefoot TB mare coming back into work who we have determined needs shoes as her soles are sensitive....but since she's not really working through the winter my farrier, vet & I agreed to leave her barefoot and use boots, when necessary, for example when doing light work, or for overnight turnout. In the spring she will get shoes & pads for consistent work.

I bought Easy Boot Boas after measuring (with my farrier's help) and looking at the different boot shapes in comparison to her hoof shape. The Boas were the closest match and they are very easy to use. The Easy Care website lists stores that carry boots, and you might get lucky enough to have some in your area that were as helpful as I found - I was able to try them on and return as many pairs until I found the ones that fit best. (The store owner suggested bringing in a tracing instead of, or in addition to, the hoof measurements.)

In our case, the boots work great. You cannot leave them on indefinitely (< 24 hours at a time is recommended) so you may not find they are the best "fix" for your current situation. I did find out, unfortunately, that they are not good on glare ice and an overnight ice storm was particularly frightening - be careful.

If I were you I might consider boots for a couple of reasons - they can help, they can be resold if they don't help, and if you are not sure of your farrier's ability to trim properly, you may not trust them to shoe right now. Boots could provide a temporary solution while you consult with other farriers or your vet.

Sounds like you're in a difficult situation and I hope it all works out soon!

[JHUshoer20]

If you can't tell what a horse is saying or thinking without a crystal ball, you shouldn't be working around horses.
Actually I can't do it with one either being as that's another tool I don't know how to use. Must be from having my butt higher than my head most of the day.
George

[Pippigirl]

True, but I'm arrogant enough to think that 50+ years personal experience trumps hell out of relative inexperience and a lemminglike adherence to barefoot dogma. I'm a big fan of stuff that works and boots simply don't work as well as shoes; if it were otherwise, I'd have used boots. And, unlike the vocal proponents of boots, I can choose one or the other, I'm not limited [edit] to a single choice. :)

I agree. You are arrogant enough to believe your experience trumps. I'm glad other professionals are not like that. Otherwise, how do we learn new things. How would veterinarian science or human medicine advance? We'd all still be thinking the world is flat.
Thanks for turning this into an attack on barefooters. NO barefooter was up in arms. Only you.

To the op. Would you be willing to post feet pics?

[JHUshoer20]

I agree. You are arrogant enough to believe your experience trumps. I'm glad other professionals are not like that. Otherwise, how do we learn new things. How would veterinarian science or human medicine advance? We'd all still be thinking the world is flat.

Pippi,
As to learning new things refer to post 91. Digging up something old and calling it new doesn't make it new.

Jack Mac has some interesting history on that stuff from Australia as well.
George

[Daydream Believer]

Daydream Believer in gray

No, you said that...just not directly. It is certainly your intent. Will you deny it?

LMAO, my intent is exactly as stated. What part of my praising effort while damning method do you find to be beyond your comprehension? Are effort and method synonymous?

You used boots once, by your own admission, and now you've decided from this one circumstance that they are inferior to shoes in all applications? That is what I mean about not being open minded.

Allow me to correct your misconception: While I have advised clients to use boots as a stop-gap measure on several occasions, I have NEVER used a boot to mitigate solar pain, simply because I have the ability to use demonstrably more efficacious methods. Unlike yourself, I have a choice.

I am not frustrated. Just tired of wasting my time on a close minded people.

Your time is wasted in attempting to defend the indefensible.

I have 14 tons of hay to unload and have to go, so enjoy sitting here trying to make everyone else look stupid but yourself.

Now that you mention it, it is kinda funny to watch you do to yourself that which you accuse me of doing. :)

As usual, you are incapable of discussing the subject without attacking people who have different ways and use different tools to accomplish the same end. I am thinking you aren't much different than Jack Mac...nothing but a troll and an obnoxious bully. We were having a nice productive discussion until you showed up. Why not crawl back into your lair and leave us poor misguided souls to struggle along without your 50 years of experience and your stupid deletia?

Thank goodness they gave us an ignore function....

[JHUshoer20]

As usual, you are incapable of discussing the subject without attacking people who have different ways and use different tools to accomplish the same end. I am thinking you aren't much different than Jack Mac...nothing but a troll and an obnoxious bully. We were having a nice productive discussion until you showed up. Why not crawl back into your lair and leave us poor misguided souls to struggle along without your 50 years of experience and your stupid deletia?

Thank goodness they gave us an ignore function....
You've not yet seen deletia!
I believe your about to get broadsided this should get good!:D
George

[Daydream Believer]

You've not yet seen deletia!
I believe your about to get broadsided this should get good!:D
George

He can do whatever he likes. He is now on ignore....and is not worthy of a reply. His ONLY purpose for doing what he does is for entertainment and showing off for his buddies. Don't feed the trolls! :winkgrin:

[Moderator 1]

The discussion on this thread should center around the OP's query, not on each other. Bring it back to the topic at hand or the thread will be closed.

Thanks.

[Tom Stovall]

Daydream Believer in gray

As usual, you are incapable of discussing the subject without attacking people who have different ways and use different tools to accomplish the same end.

Unlike yourself, I try to avoid ad hominem attacks. Doubts? Go back and read the exchanges, bearing in mind that ideas and concepts are fair game, but attacking the person is not kosher. I can play either way, but it's more fun to watch folks run out of logical arguments and resort to ad hominem as a substitute for logic.

I am thinking you aren't much different than Jack Mac...nothing but a troll and an obnoxious bully.

Jack is a farrier, as am I, but I'm unaware that that I'd been elevated to the status of "troll" by yourself. Good on me! To be in such good company would make a deacon proud. By the way, unless one has the physical or fiscal means to affect someone, it's literally impossible to "bully" anyone other than a masochist as one has only to quit reading in order to avoid being "bullied."

We were having a nice productive discussion until you showed up.

Are you attempting to add weight to your words by implying you speak for anyone other than yourself? Surely you can do better than that! Ad populum fallacies are the sort of childish nonsense that'll get your ear twisted in Sister Agnes' sixth grade debate class. Quite illogically, you appear to be saying that any discussion that is contrary to the barefoot dogma you espouse could not possibly be productive. What was that you said about a "closed mind?"

Why not crawl back into your lair and leave us poor misguided souls to struggle along without your 50 years of experience and your stupid deletia?

If you don't like what I have to say, you have only to quit reading. If someone has a gun to your head and is forcing you to read it, you have my condolences because I'm not going anywhere unless the moderators pull the plug or it pleases me to do so.

Thank goodness they gave us an ignore function.

Telling someone you're going to ignore them is kinda pointless: I'll never know for sure or care in any event - and I'm just arrogant enough to figure it's your loss.

[AZ Native]

The op can check out this article, it contains a huge amount of info on boots and pads.
http://www.hoofrehab.com/bootarticle.htm

[asbjockey]

If you decide to try the boots and pads, maybe you can find someone to lend them to you before you commit to buying them. Also, http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/boot_swap.htm
is a good place to look for used boots. Usually much cheaper then new.

[jack mac]

I agree. You are arrogant enough to believe your experience trumps. I'm glad other professionals are not like that. Otherwise, how do we learn new things. How would veterinarian science or human medicine advance? We'd all still be thinking the world is flat.
Thanks for turning this into an attack on barefooters. NO barefooter was up in arms. Only you.

To the op. Would you be willing to post feet pics?that's the problem your taking hoof care back to when the world was flat, next you will be telling every one to ride around bare back because saddles aren't natural lol never mind a horses spine will become sore if any pressure is applied to it ,just as horses feet get sore if you ride them, see the logic, riding horses is about as natural as shearing sheep if you feel so strongly about going natural don't ride them at all in the first place let them grow long toes that brake back to the quick & hobble around lame every now & then or worm them or feed them, because that's as natural as it gets,

[grayarabs]

WW - the horse is not retired? ie you have intentions to train/compete him in the future?
(Hopefully you can - I looked at his photos - lovely!!!).
Best for now - is have vet exam - x-rays of hooves. Until that time make him as comfortable as possible - you mentioned he was comfortable in the snow? I would let him stay out in it for as many hours per day as possible - walking around.
"Hopefully" you are only dealing with thin soles. The best way to toughen them up is barefoot. After years of wearing shoes - prep trim - the soles are probably very thin.
And your horse in shoes for so long the soles have not "felt the ground" probably in years.
So let's just hope it is thin soles. Boots great for now. Then transition - time out of boots walking around - growing sole and toughening them at the same time. See what happens.
Have hoof properly trimmed. You are in Canada? The gals at www.equinextion.com
are in Canada. You should visit that website - probably similar case studies. You can learn a lot. Perhaps one of those gals could come trim for you. If the horse is retired - then he could/should be transitioned to barefoot. If you intend to compete again - and intend to put shoes back on (although folks do compete successfully barefoot!) having tough soles going in would be a good thing. Thing is with shoes - when you lose one - or two - not good. Waiting for photos of hooves - and then hopefully of the x-rays?

[S1969]

If you decide to try the boots and pads, maybe you can find someone to lend them to you before you commit to buying them. Also, http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/boot_swap.htm
is a good place to look for used boots. Usually much cheaper then new.

That is a good idea. I actually have an extra pair that while they didn't fit my TB well, fit my percheron pony cross....she doesn't "need" boots but they can be useful in extreme mud situations so I kept them. I'm sure there are a lot of people in my situation who would either lend or sell cheap if you are interested in trying them; especially because some online stores won't take them back if they have been used.

[grayarabs]

Tom - you have written a lot under these threads. I have, however, never seen photos of your work - barefoot or shod - your corrective shoeing cases, befores and afters, etc. To me - a picture is worth a thousand words. Many of us are trying to learn here.
Folks come here for help. I would find it easier to understand what you write about - if I could see accompanying photos. Do you have some at hand to post - mentioning the pathologies and how you worked with the hooves? Any cases similar to WW's - with photo progression? Thanks!!!

[JHUshoer20]

The discussion on this thread should center around the OP's query, not on each other. Bring it back to the topic at hand or the thread will be closed.

Thanks.
OPs question was can shoes be put on bruised soles? Answer was absolutely yes. Now we have BUA types bombarding the OP with barefoot websites and trying to talk the OP out of shoeing any way they can.

Quite predictable and getting tiresome. I vote to go ahead and shut it down this is just degenerating down to BS now.
George

[JHUshoer20]

Tom - you have written a lot under these threads. I have, however, never seen photos of your work - barefoot or shod - your corrective shoeing cases, befores and afters, etc. To me - a picture is worth a thousand words. Many of us are trying to learn here.
Folks come here for help. I would find it easier to understand what you write about - if I could see accompanying photos. Do you have some at hand to post - mentioning the pathologies and how you worked with the hooves? Any cases similar to WW's - with photo progression? Thanks!!!
Mr Stovall has posted plenty of examples of his excellent work here and elsewhere.
Try this one to start, www.katyforge.com I'm sure if he chooses to he can furnish more when he comes on.
George

[grayarabs]

No - not good to shut down this thread - many want to see what is going on with the horse. But a reminder to keep to the subject understandable. If I veered - sorry - did not see reminder until just now. Let's all please be nice!!!!
Again - many want to help this horse - offer suggestions - hopefully learn something as well.
JH - I like to read case studies - I don't see photos/explanations/etc on TS's website - - which is why I asked. (Anyone that has a "hoofie" website I study - his is the only one I cannot find case studies).. If you know where they are there - could you please PM me?
Thanks!

[jack mac]

Seen as the Bare footers clam theses boots are far Superior then horse shoes & the way to go lets take a better look at there function & all round suitability for the horses in full work 1/ are they the proper shape of a horses hoof including front & hinds answer no 2/ do they ware evenly & to the horses gait answer no 3/ do they shift around on the horses hoof causing the horse to fell instability & affect the horses balance answer yes 4/ do they cause tendons joints & ligaments any damage though in stability answer yes 5/ can they cause a horse to brush overreach or speedy cut in the hind legs & cause him to alter his action answer yes 6/ can they damage the hoof by rubbing on the coronet band & bulbs causing cracks to grow down answer yes 7/ can they become contaminated with microbes in a short period of time & if not addressed become a haven for theses microbes answer yes 8/ do they fair well in keeping out water or fine sand particles if the horses hoof becomes submerged answer no 9/ do the type that are held on by a metal cable example easyboot affect the proper expansion & circulation of the horses hoof under load answerer yes 10/ do the boots distort from there shape when under load causing weight distribution to change suddenly for the horse answer yes .

[J.D.]

Seen as the Bare footers clam theses boots are far Superior then horse shoes & the way to go lets take a better look at there function & all round suitability for the horses in full work 1/ are they the proper shape of a horses hoof including front & hinds answer no 2/ do they ware evenly & to the horses gait answer no 3/ do they shift around on the horses hoof causing the horse to fell instability & affect the horses balance answer yes 4/ do they cause tendons joints & ligaments any damage though in stability answer yes 5/ can they cause a horse to brush overreach or speedy cut in the hind legs & cause him to alter his action answer yes 6/ can they damage the hoof by rubbing on the coronet band & bulbs causing cracks to grow down answer yes 7/ can they become contaminated with microbes in a short period of time & if not addressed become a haven for theses microbes answer yes 8/ do they fair well in keeping out water or fine sand particles if the horses hoof becomes submerged answer no 9/ do the type that are held on by a metal cable example easyboot affect the proper expansion & circulation of the horses hoof under load answerer yes 10/ do the boots distort from there shape when under load causing weight distribution to change suddenly for the horse answer yes .

ball and chain effect; most boots weigh more than keg shoes.:cool:

[JenniferF]

WWQueen

I have some very recent experience with transitioning to barefoot. My horse was very ouchy at first, but is now doing wonderfully.

I agree with all of the sensible people here who suggest having radiographs to see what is going on inside his hoof. We did this with my horse to be sure that he had no laminitis or rotation causing the soreness...we did find out with the radiographs that he had very thin soles.

Our solution was to boot him ASAP...I used Easyboot Boas because a barn friend had a pair that fit him which worked out very well. At first we had to use the Easyboot thicker pads, then eventually the thinner pads, then no pads and now...no boots!

I can't remember from reading your original post...but did you pull all four shoes at once? That may part of the problem. He literally may not have a comfortable leg to stand on right now!

If you would like to hear more details of what I did to help during my gelding's transition, please feel free to email me. Don't want to bore everyone here!

Jenn and Huey, too!

[Tom Stovall]

grayarabs in gray

Tom - you have written a lot under these threads. I have, however, never seen photos of your work - barefoot or shod - your corrective shoeing cases, befores and afters, etc.

Do you think you're qualified to judge my work on the basis of a photo? Or, for that matter, the work of any farrier? If you have been involved in any facet of Houston's Arabian, H/J, or dressage show scene from 1980 to 2005, you've probably seen my work and you've had a chance to see me working as the official farrier at various Houston area shows including Pin Oak and the Region 9 Dressage Championships.

To me - a picture is worth a thousand words. Many of us are trying to learn here.

If a picture is worth 1,000 words, how much is a win picture worth? I have several.

Folks come here for help. I would find it easier to understand what you write about - if I could see accompanying photos.

LMAO, you won't mind if I point out that you won't learn much when you're fully immersed in barefoot dogma. I find it difficult to teach folks anything when they already know it all.

Do you have some at hand to post - mentioning the pathologies and how you worked with the hooves? Any cases similar to WW's - with photo progression?

As it happens, I've posted a couple of photos of a shoe with a bubble forged on the inner web that successfully mitigated the solar pain caused by an open incision used to establish drainage on an abscess in a barrel horse's foot. In this thread, I posted a response to my favorite Georgia lawyer's question that involved a consult and my recommending boots as a first response for the sensitive sole's prolapsing through an incision made to drain an abscess and the use of the same sort of shoe. The principle is the same, whether the solar pain is local or general and it involves the mechanical reduction/negation of environmental pressure on the affected area by utilizing non-affected structures in the loaded phases of movement at any gait.

Given the limitations of any boot and the versatility of a correctly applied shoe, it's not surprising that a shoe is the usual weapon of choice in the mitigation of solar pain for anyone capable of applying a shoe. Folks incapable of applying a shoe are forced to use other, less efficacious measures - boots, taped-on diapers, etc. - and that's not a knock on trimmers, that's reality. :)

[goeslikestink]

I haven't ridden him since the end of October. The soreness and "off-ness" has been diagnosed and confirmed by three vets (all sporthorse) as a loose stifle. The secondary lameness is his SI, which he has pulled and leaves the resulting tightness. The prescription to cure the stifle problems was work in hand and under saddle at working on the bit and long and low to work the muscles.

Even his chiropractor agreed that the only way to cure it was to work through it. We had been working with cavallettis (as there are no hills in our area), walk hacks, 15-20 mins of trotting, etc.

However, since his shoes were pulled, he has shown on-off lameness due to shoeing, hence this thread on shoeing. He has not been ridden because I want to start at the bottom and then we can re-address the back/stifle issues.

I had pulled the shoes originally because it did not seem to help him, and I thought by giving him time off it would help both him and my wallet. After the last few months of trying to figure out what's best, and thanks to the suggestions on this thread, I will have the vet out on Monday just to "be sure" it's not something more complicated (which from what I've seen, I doubt). I will have some shoes put back on, and treat the foot with some of the products I've seen suggested to try and toughen up his feet before I try pulling them again.

I need to figure out how to get him (and to stay) comfortable, without spending obscene amounts of money like I have done over the last 8-9 months.

um ok answer me something how does he sleep -- its important question

ok dokey it sounds to me as if the horse has a stiffle problem still, as the toe dragging says that
now if a horse has a delayed release of the knee cap then shoes and wedges on hinds can sometimes help and what your vet siad ie hill work or work in hand and ridden in straight lines etc but she s talking what you would do as to treatment to forelegs not hind legs

your horse has osteochondrosis-- hind stifle --this can be confirmed by radiographic examnination
with out treatment the horse will be continuely lame surgery can be successful if the area isnt to loose- horse will have to then be boxed rested and anything up to about 18months off work
as ligaments and tendon injuries take heaps of time to heal start of with at least 6mths box rest then in hand walks and then restricted paddock takes time heaps of time but give it the horse shold come round-- but how bad the damage is only a radiograph can tell you

its not a trim this horse needs its a vet and radiograph i know its heap of dosh but get it right and work at it with vet and farrier hand in hand as you will need a qualified farrier as they are the only ones qualified to re aline a horse limb action--

google osteochondrosis and find out as much information i bet thisis what your horse has

[jack mac]

WWQueen

I have some very recent experience with transitioning to barefoot. My horse was very ouchy at first, but is now doing wonderfully.

I agree with all of the sensible people here who suggest having radiographs to see what is going on inside his hoof. We did this with my horse to be sure that he had no laminitis or rotation causing the soreness...we did find out with the radiographs that he had very thin soles.

Our solution was to boot him ASAP...I used Easyboot Boas because a barn friend had a pair that fit him which worked out very well. At first we had to use the Easyboot thicker pads, then eventually the thinner pads, then no pads and now...no boots!

I can't remember from reading your original post...but did you pull all four shoes at once? That may part of the problem. He literally may not have a comfortable leg to stand on right now!

If you would like to hear more details of what I did to help during my gelding's transition, please feel free to email me. Don't want to bore everyone here!

Jenn and Huey, too!i wont feel bored at all, care to post some picks of your horses hooves doing so well, say after a few hard gallops for a week up & down say a blue metal gravel road, id be fascinated to hear how well his feet hold up seen as he's transitioned beyond his genetically inherited thin soles. or would you have to put boots on him for that? because his transitioned hooves wouldn't tolerate the harshness.

[grayarabs]

Tom - I did not ask to judge. It just seems that most of the professionals that post here - have websites - with photos and case studies. I don't see that on yours. If you talked alot about a great reining horse you owned - for example - folks would like to see photos of it I am sure. To answer briefly - yes - years mentioned - I was at those shows - saw you there - but have no idea what horses you shod. Anyway - I have in my mind what kinds of trims and shoes on horses I find most pleasing - most effective - whatever. Just curious after all this time I would like to see how you trim and shoe. Seems I will never know - since you won't show. I do not want to further stray from the intention of this thread - I guess what I want to say - is that when you post and give so much info - tell folks what you think is good and what is bad for the horse - and an owner in a crisis has to make a decision about their horse - you reply pushing one way - its success - your theories - it is best believed by seeing something - like photos of horses hooves you have worked with.
Were I to be looking for help - or a new farrier or trimmer - I would want to see photos of their work if I could not see it in person. I can tell a lot from photos. I don't go just by what people say - for me to believe them - I have to see something.
Hopefully WW the OP will post photos - which I am sure will tell a lot.
She has to make a decision - and if she could see/study similar cases - narratives/photos - progression - what worked - what did not work - why - would greatly help her.
Again - seeing is believing.

[jack mac]

Tom - I did not ask to judge. It just seems that most of the professionals that post here - have websites - with photos and case studies. I don't see that on yours. If you talked alot about a great reining horse you owned - for example - folks would like to see photos of it I am sure. To answer briefly - yes - years mentioned - I was at those shows - saw you there - but have no idea what horses you shod. Anyway - I have in my mind what kinds of trims and shoes on horses I find most pleasing - most effective - whatever. Just curious after all this time I would like to see how you trim and shoe. Seems I will never know - since you won't show. I do not want to further stray from the intention of this thread - I guess what I want to say - is that when you post and give so much info - tell folks what you think is good and what is bad for the horse - and an owner in a crisis has to make a decision about their horse - you reply pushing one way - its success - your theories - it is best believed by seeing something - like photos of horses hooves you have worked with.
Were I to be looking for help - or a new farrier or trimmer - I would want to see photos of their work if I could not see it in person. I can tell a lot from photos. I don't go just by what people say - for me to believe them - I have to see something.
Hopefully WW the OP will post photos - which I am sure will tell a lot.
She has to make a decision - and if she could see/study similar cases - narratives/photos - progression - what worked - what did not work - why - would greatly help her.
Again - seeing is believing.id love to post you more of my work on bare foot cases of transitioned hoofs, unfortunately id be fined & jailed for contempt of court part of the pleading guilty to the cruelty charges & saveing long drawn out court time, There barristers ask for a suppression order be placed on the photos in most its granted as they fear some harm my come to the perpetrator if they didn't, that's how well most of theses transition periods go. sound a little familiar ? now what was this thread about again:confused:

[Appassionato]

I agree with all of the sensible people here who suggest having radiographs to see what is going on inside his hoof. We did this with my horse to be sure that he had no laminitis or rotation causing the soreness...we did find out with the radiographs that he had very thin soles.

I feel radiographs taken and read by someone who can actually read them (yes, I've met some pretty bad vets AND farriers/trimmers) would really help this case. Matter of fact, I think it's nuts if someone touches the horse without x-rays if the horse is in the kind of pain the OP claims (I have no reason to doubt the OP by her posts).

Our solution was to boot him ASAP...I used Easyboot Boas because a barn friend had a pair that fit him which worked out very well. At first we had to use the Easyboot thicker pads, then eventually the thinner pads, then no pads and now...no boots!

Awesome! I have the Easyboot Epics myself for "spare tires" for my guy. Otherwise he is shod.

It isn't that I don't believe that any horse can be helped by boots...quite the opposite! I believe my case was that bad. So does everyone else that has seen him. :lol: In any case, my point is that I truly believe that some horses need shoes, even if just for a while until their hoof health improves.

I can't remember from reading your original post...but did you pull all four shoes at once? That may part of the problem. He literally may not have a comfortable leg to stand on right now!

That brings up a great point. My guy was older and still shod up front when I decided to just have his hinds trimmed instead of shod, and there was NO soreness. I never tried all four barefoot from all four being shod...this may have indeed complicated the OP's problem.

It's not that boots aren't effective to some degree, it's that shoes are a great deal more effective in the alleviation of solar pain because shoes can be manipulated so there is absolutely no possibility of sole pressure - and the worse the butchery, the better shoes work. A shoe can be nailed or glued to the wall or a polymeric prosthesis, caused to load/unload at designated points, used to manipulate phalangeal angulation, and used in conjunction with pads and pour-ins to create or remove sole or frog pressure.

Put another way, shoes are infinitely more versatile than boots...

Most folks know me as not anti-farrier nor anti-trimmer, but for the truly messed up hooves I agree with the above. Pour-ins are superior to foam pads. The get into crevices that pads can't. J. D. presents a great point about weight, steel heartbars left my horse very sore just due to the sheer weight of them. I also agree that more can be done to the ground side of the shoe to affect movement than boots can, especially as the horse's problems get better. I can't put the parts I sheared off the ground surface side of a boot back on it. I'm not slighting boots for all horses, but I can say for my own case (the one I'm most familiar with and most agree it was pretty heinous), boots weren't the best option at that time. They're fine for a spare, but not to correct my horse's issues. :winkgrin:

[JB]

Now we have BUA types bombarding the OP with barefoot websites and trying to talk the OP out of shoeing any way they can.

Oh please do tell where anyone tried to talk the OP out of shoes.

What HAS happened is people have offered a variety of suggestions - some people only offered boots, some only offered shoes, some offered both.

To think that everyone will offer all the same suggestions is silly.

I could say exactly the same about "you guys" - that you are trying to talk the OP out of shoes any way you can.

[Tom Stovall]

grayarabs in gray, deletia

I did not ask to judge. It just seems that most of the professionals that post here - have websites - with photos and case studies. I don't see that on yours.

That's probably because I'm trying to sell gates, signs and fancy metalwork on my website, not farriery. The farriery section of my website exists as a service, I'm not looking for horses to shoe and I refer everything to other farriers except consults that really interest me - mostly speed horses with interference problems.

To answer briefly - yes - years mentioned - I was at those shows - saw you there - but have no idea what horses you shod. Anyway - I have in my mind what kinds of trims and shoes on horses I find most pleasing - most effective - whatever.

Fair enough.

Just curious after all this time I would like to see how you trim and shoe. Seems I will never know - since you won't show.

If you're really curious, look around over on horsehoes.com, I posted a couple of case histories over there a year or two back. One was a heeling horse I put in sliders because he was stopping so hard the heeler couldn't get dallied up; the other was my lawyer's hunter.

I guess what I want to say - is that when you post and give so much info - tell folks what you think is good and what is bad for the horse - and an owner in a crisis has to make a decision about their horse - you reply pushing one way - its success - your theories - it is best believed by seeing something - like photos of horses hooves you have worked with.

Anybody can post pictures and claim it's their stuff. My personal ability has been been recognized by my peers for many years and I don't feel the need to present my bona fides every time I post something or on this or any other forum. I post to please myself and it pleases me to present what I feel is the most efficacious way of doing things, based on my personal experience and education. This ain't my first rodeo.

Were I to be looking for help - or a new farrier or trimmer - I would want to see photos of their work if I could not see it in person. I can tell a lot from photos.

Unless it's something glaring, I can't tell squat unless the photo was taken with the camera parallel to the ground and perpendicular to the bony column for laterals, parallel to the ground and dead dorsal for frontals, and perpendicular to the ground surface of the hoof for solars. Furthermore, unless I saw the photo taken, I don't really have any way of knowing who did the work and how it affected the horse; furthermore, I hesitate to judge anyone's work unless I know what the foot looked like before they picked it up.

I don't go just by what people say - for me to believe them - I have to see something.

Different strokes. For me, very little concerning a horse's foot is going to be anything I haven't seen before - several times. Given the OP's recounting of the horse's history, a pair of wide web aluminums seated out so nothing touches inside the nail pattern will probably make the horse walk off sound. Or, the vet may find something other than solar pain caused by the mechanic's taking too much foot off, in which case he'll advise something that fits his diagnosis.

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can judge a job unless they see it up close and personal and have sufficient education and experience with which to evaluate what they're seeing. Anybody can post anything on the internet: folks can claim to cure articular ringbone, cite press release observations as "proof" that horses need their heels whacked off, claim that shoes are "evil", and spout boxcar loads of similar drivel, but when it all shakes out, the only criterion by which anyone's job can properly be judged is this: Did the horse get whatever it needed to do whatever it does as best it can?

[LMH]

What is so difficult about sharing what YOU would do and just no respond to any other stuff?:confused:

Let it go, ignore, whatever...just stay on track, whatever track you choose.

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two in gray

THIS IS NOT BAREFOOT VERSUS SHOES.

Quite true, this has segued into a discussion of the relative efficacy of boots verses shoes.

This is half the people saying that BOOTS ARE AN OPTION alongside shoes - whatever the owner chooses - and the other half saying the ONLY option is shoes. It's the farriers doing what they do best - attacking those of us who happen to believe there are TWO OPTIONS for alleviating hoof pain after a short trim.

No one has disputed the fact that two primary options exist, but the existence of options does not change the fact that one option is superior to the other in the relief of solar pain. Boots simply don't work as well as shoes. There are any number of valid reasons the OP might choose boots over shoes, but none of those reasons is related to efficacy.

Funny that they accuse us of being BUAs - whatever that means - but the only people who stake out a chunk of territory and REFUSE to budge are the farriers. Talk about ironic! :eek:

Granted, we farriers can get plumb stubborn when the welfare of the horse is at issue and it's a matter of a barefooter's opinion against our knowledge.

And for the love of jesus, can't we just talk without these stupid attacks??

LMAO! Do you really think barefoot dogma, including its reliance on boots, is sacrosanct and immune from attack?

[JenniferF]

i wont feel bored at all, care to post some picks of your horses hooves doing so well, say after a few hard gallops for a week up & down say a blue metal gravel road, id be fascinated to hear how well his feet hold up seen as he's transitioned beyond his genetically inherited thin soles. or would you have to put boots on him for that? because his transitioned hooves wouldn't tolerate the harshness.

I don't think I would advocate galloping on a gravel road regardless of whether the horse had shoes on or not. I do not know what blue metal gravel is. Apparently we don't have that here.

My current practice is to leave the boots off whilst the horse is in the paddock and being ridden in our sand arena. I use Easyboot Bares on his fronts feet only for trailriding. I like the boot system because he can be "naked" most of the time. This method seems to work for us. It doesn't seem like I have to have anything nailed to his foot for him to ride wherever I would like to go. The boots are nice because I can put them on by myself and adjust their fit if need be.

I think whatever allows the horse to be comfortable as naturally as possible is a good way to go. The reason I decided to take my horse barefoot was that he had poor quality hoof walls and diseased portions where the nail holes and clips were. When those areas grew out, he had nice healthy hoof tissue instead of shelly, chippy crap.

Jackmac, you do not seem to be in the spirit to be helpful to anyone, just argumentative. I hope the OP's horse can become comfortable again, whatever her choices may be. I just see the shoes as a temporary fix, not a long-term solution.

[LMH]

Tom you obviously have no experience with the newer boots and padding options (by your own admission) so you really can't say shoes are superior for protecting an over trimmed horse.

What you are saying is you have tried boots once, and don't recall what kind and have never tried them again. That is hardly an strong argument that shoes are better.

NOW if you had tried Epics, Bares, Old Macs, Sabre Sneaker, Hoof Wings,etc with the different padding options now available, including frog pads, different density full pads, and rim pads providing sole relief, then we could talk and compare.



:)

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

I hope we, as barefooters, also realize that the overuse and dependency on boots is following in the footsteps of shoeing. Albeit, I think slipping on a boot is better than nailing metal to the bottom of a hoof, but if the end result is still the same- a focus on using external means to solve underlying problems...then we're still not getting to the bottom of the issue.

Find out WHY the horse is sore and address THAT issue. Boots are absolutely wonderful for the horse in transition, or maybe for a situation such as a horse that normally lives in sand and is trailered to the mountains where the terrain is quite different than his hooves are prepared for...but depending on them to make a horse sound, without thinking of possible trimming/lifestyle/diet issues sets you up for the wrong mindset.

I hope that wasn't too much of a tangent, and I could be off base in interpreting others' advice. It just seems as though the talk of the variety of boots and pads is circumventing the fact that the horse may not just be sore because he's newly deshod. If the trim isn't right, if the diet is still too high in sugars, or if the horse is stalled all the time, then those issues need to be handled is some way, even partially, instead of just throwing boots on to fix the problem.

[AZ Native]

;2996512']

Find out WHY the horse is sore and address THAT issue. Boots are absolutely wonderful for the horse in transition, or maybe for a situation such as a horse that normally lives in sand and is trailered to the mountains where the terrain is quite different than his hooves are prepared for...but depending on them to make a horse sound, without thinking of possible trimming/lifestyle/diet issues sets you up for the wrong mindset.

If the trim isn't right, if the diet is still too high in sugars, or if the horse is stalled all the time, then those issues need to be handled is some way, even partially, instead of just throwing boots on to fix the problem.

Right on !!!!!!

[JHUshoer20]

Oh please do tell where anyone tried to talk the OP out of shoes.


Refer you to the reply I gave before, the constant persistent never ending posts of links to BUA websites.

If the moderators want to end the shoes vs barefoot nonsense once and for all they rightfully ought to shut down any thread they see that somebody posts one of those.
George

[Tom Stovall]

LMH in gray

Tom you obviously have no experience with the newer boots and padding options (by your own admission) so you really can't say shoes are superior for protecting an over trimmed horse.

Sure I can - no matter how a boot is gussied up, it's still a boot and it doesn't become an integral part of the hoof capsule and therein lies the difference between boots and shoes. Do you really think any boot can be fitted so it loads only at an operator designated point(s) of the wall (not the entire wall) during the support phases of motion, with no possibility of sole or frog pressure? Do you know of any boot that offers the possibility of a integral polymeric prosthesis with clip reinforcement and extreme stability? Do you know of any boot (insert, pad, etc.) capable of achieving and maintaining precise apexal (not general) frog pressure? For that matter, do you know of any boot capable of maintaining operator designated, general frog pressure? Do you know of any boot capable of becoming an integral part of the wall that allows the operator to change phalangeal angulation? All of the aforementioned are sometimes necessary to effectively remediate solar pain and can be accomplished by any competent mechanic with a shoe: Can you do it with a boot?

What you are saying is you have tried boots once, and don't recall what kind and have never tried them again. That is hardly an strong argument that shoes are better.

C'mon counselor, you know that's not what I wrote. I related an anecdote concerning a consultation in which I advised the client to apply a boot to a horse I figured had sensitive sole prolapsing through an abscess drain hole; I did not use the term "once," that's your construction and you know better. In earlier posts, I pointed out that on several occasions, I've removed boots from horses presenting with solar pain, applied a shoe, and had every one walk off better than it walked up.

NOW if you had tried Epics, Bares, Old Macs, Sabre Sneaker, Hoof Wings,etc with the different padding options now available, including frog pads, different density full pads, and rim pads providing sole relief, then we could talk and compare.

Since I have the ability to apply an infinitely more versatile and effective remedy for solar pain, I'll leave the application of comparatively ineffective hoof boots to folks who are unable/unwilling to apply the most effective means of solar pain remediation. :)

[jack mac]

I don't think I would advocate galloping on a gravel road regardless of whether the horse had shoes on or not. I do not know what blue metal gravel is. Apparently we don't have that here.

My current practice is to leave the boots off whilst the horse is in the paddock and being ridden in our sand arena. I use Easyboot Bares on his fronts feet only for trailriding. I like the boot system because he can be "naked" most of the time. This method seems to work for us. It doesn't seem like I have to have anything nailed to his foot for him to ride wherever I would like to go. The boots are nice because I can put them on by myself and adjust their fit if need be.

I think whatever allows the horse to be comfortable as naturally as possible is a good way to go. The reason I decided to take my horse barefoot was that he had poor quality hoof walls and diseased portions where the nail holes and clips were. When those areas grew out, he had nice healthy hoof tissue instead of shelly, chippy crap.

Jackmac, you do not seem to be in the spirit to be helpful to anyone, just argumentative. I hope the OP's horse can become comfortable again, whatever her choices may be. I just see the shoes as a temporary fix, not a long-term solution.blue metal is crushed blue stone, & some people over here use it on there arenas instead of sand as it doesnt blow away with the wind. As for not being in the spirit lol, this poor woman's horse is in the predicament its in, because she was foolish enough to listed to a bone head bare foot trimmer, who would of told her as all trimmers do, her horse would be better off with out shoe's, three trims later & a lot of who ha about transition & what do you know, shes got a lame horse that's trembling from the pain, maybe I'm stupid but the horse was not lame & doing fine with shoes on, now is that a more help full , now ill give you one guess what i think SHOE THE HORSE

[CookiePony]

;2996512']
I hope that wasn't too much of a tangent, and I could be off base in interpreting others' advice. It just seems as though the talk of the variety of boots and pads is circumventing the fact that the horse may not just be sore because he's newly deshod. If the trim isn't right, if the diet is still too high in sugars, or if the horse is stalled all the time, then those issues need to be handled is some way, even partially, instead of just throwing boots on to fix the problem.

Without going back and rereading the whole thread, what I have gathered is that the horse most probably does have a bad trim (we haven't seen the pics yet, but the OP said in posts 23 and 60 that she has noticed some hoof form/trim problems. So I believe most of the comments about boots have advocated their use for remediation of a bad trim. I can't say anything about his diet and turnout, but nobody is saying this is a normal situation.

[reillyshoe]

As a farrier who uses both nail on shoes and glue on shoes (as well as leaving horses barefoot) and fabricates removable boots for horses I would, in general, agree with Tom's position.

When was the last time anyone using a boot changed the shape of the boot to conform to the shape of the horse's foot? Would you be pleased with a farrier who put a shoe on a foot without shaping the shoe? Of course not. The odds of a boot fitting a foot precisely, and remaining in an exact place on a foot is not great. A boot that fits even reasonably well likely has regions that extend beyond the perimeter of the hoof, and often by a considerable distance. I am sure a shoe that extended beyond the perimeter of the hoof by 1/2 inch would draw considerable criticism on this site. How is a boot different? This is not to say that boots are bad, just difficult. When I make hoof boots I start with a positive mold of the foot and fabricate them specifically for an individual foot, and that makes it easier to dictate the mechanical forces.

Tom,
I have built boots that incorporate all of the criteria you mentioned, but it is much easier to build these into a shoe.

[Auventera Two]

;2996512']I hope we, as barefooters, also realize that the overuse and dependency on boots is following in the footsteps of shoeing.

Hey - you have my complete support in that statement! :yes: I use boots as very little as possible now. But in the beginning I needed them every time I rode on anything but grass.

It is NEVER acceptable to use any kind of appliance in lieu of establishing correct, healthy foot structure. As I've said already, it blows my mind that people want to keep riding and competing on horrible broken down feet, but if that same horse had a bowed tendon, or strangles, or a bone chip, he'd be on rest for as long as it took to rehab it.

Something is CLEARLY WRONG when horse owners don't understand, and/or don't care how important healthy, strong feet are - shoes or no shoes!

[Auventera Two]

When was the last time anyone using a boot changed the shape of the boot to conform to the shape of the horse's foot? Would you be pleased with a farrier who put a shoe on a foot without shaping the shoe? Of course not.

But we're not talking about CASTING a foot because of sheared heels or a fracture, or other severe trauma. We're talking about a horse who was cut too short. 5 or 6 weeks of growth and the horse can probably be out of boots and getting around just fine on his own.

If you broke your ankle would the doc say - Just wear your sneakers, it'll heal! Of course not! We're not talking about the same thing. Casting a foot in a shoe or shoeing package is great if it needs that. But in the case of a footsore horse from a poor farrier - boots are fine.

You're trying to make the situation into something it's NOT. If the horse had some type of severe trauma requiring casting, I would NOT suggest boots. I would suggest shoes. But that's not the case, is it? ;)

Unless of course the vet reveals something that doesn't meet the eye....

The odds of a boot fitting a foot precisely, and remaining in an exact place on a foot is not great. A boot that fits even reasonably well likely has regions that extend beyond the perimeter of the hoof, and often by a considerable distance.

That's not true. Boots can be very well fitted and many styles do not extend above the hairline. If your boots are hanging off the foot by 1/2", then you didn't fit them properly. Properly fitted Easyboots are tight on the hoof wall like a skin and do not come off without a fight. ;)

But also remember, that a shoe hanging off 1/2" is more problematic because if it's pulled, it's likely to take hoof with it. Boots don't do that. If they get pulled off, they just get pulled off. But because they are not sunk INTO the hoof wall, there is no way to tear the hoof wall off the horse.

[Tom Stovall]

reillyshoe in gray, deletia

I have built boots that incorporate all of the criteria you mentioned, but it is much easier to build these into a shoe.

I mighta known! I stand corrected. :)

[irishcas]

Leah:

Why bother with [edit] T.S.

He operates on the basis of belief that shoes are the answer to all problems. When others yourself included operate that shoes don't need to be used to cure the ills of the world.

I have had horses that were unsound go sound the moment I pulled the shoes, trimmed and applied boots and pads. Same horses go on to no longer need boots and compete at various levels of competition. So big deal, we all have cases that prove our beliefs.

T.S's admission that he is retired explains how he is able to write extensive posts on so many boards. [edit] why give him entertainment?

Regards,

[J.D.]

irishcas-
Why bother with B.S. oooops I mean T.S.....(from your webpage)~~~"My name is Kim Cassidy, I'm a Professional Barefoot Trimmer and I live in Chester, NY.


I started this site almost five years ago to advertise my services and also to share my work and thoughts on keeping a horse barefoot"

.

5 years versus 40 years in the "business" of foot care~~~~~HMMMMMMMMMMMM???







.......T.S's admission that he is retired explains how he is able to write extensive posts on so many boards. He is a bored old grump, why give him entertainment?

Thought that is why retirement was retirement; one can do what they want with their time:winkgrin:

[reillyshoe]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;2996758]

That's not true. Boots can be very well fitted and many styles do not extend above the hairline. If your boots are hanging off the foot by 1/2", then you didn't fit them properly. Properly fitted Easyboots are tight on the hoof wall like a skin and do not come off without a fight. ;)

QUOTE]

Do Easy Boots come in front and hind shapes? Clearly all feet are different shapes. Unless you have a technique for reshaping a boot something is sticking out somewhere- otherwise you could not pull it on over the foot, right? In other hoofcare discussions we argue about the appropriateness of millimeter differences in shoeing/trimming theories, and then we apply a generic shaped boot to the foot. This has never made much sense to me.
As sore as the owner describes this horse to be, there is at least the possibility of laminitis. Would an extension on any direction be a mechanically desirable? For that manner, would you consider an extension to be advantageous for any horse just because a generic shape happened to dictate it?
Remember, I am not "anti boot". I just find it interesting how people who are anti shoe can suggest something with less specific mechanical influence on the hoof and limb as a positive treatment modality.

[Tom Stovall]

irishcas in gray

Why bother with B.S. oooops I mean T.S.

It's a pity you find it necessary to resort to ad hominem illogic so early in an exchange, it kinda takes the fun out of blowing your silly arguments out of the water - but, I will.

He operates on the basis of belief that shoes are the answer to all problems.

One realizes that lies and half-truths are the stock in trade of politicians with an agenda: Are you a politician? Had you been reading for content instead of pushing your usual "shoes bad, barefoot good" nonsense, you would've noticed that, like every other farrier posing on this forum, my stated position on shoes vs barefeet has consistently been that some horses need shoes and some don't. You might've even noticed that I've repeatedly stated that both my OTT pasture ornaments are barefooted. Apparently, my stated position does not fit into your barefoot agenda and, like many politicians, you felt compelled to make up something instead of dealing with the truth.

When others yourself included operate that shoes don't need to be used to cure the ills of the world.

One can only wonder why my pointing out the relative inefficacy of boots when compared to shoes has somehow aroused the ire of barefoot proponents such as yourself. Do you think your endlessly repeating barefoot dogma will somehow change reality?

I have had horses that were unsound go sound the moment I pulled the shoes, trimmed and applied boots and pads. Same horses go on to no longer need boots and compete at various levels of competition. So big deal, we all have cases that prove our beliefs.

As I pointed out in a previous post, I've had horses presenting with solar pain go sound off my mats with nothing more than the application of sole paint - but that doesn't mean that sole paint is the most effective form of remediation. Similarly, your experience is not indicative of the efficacy of boots when compared to shoes. Were you capable of pulling the boots off a sore horse and correctly applying shoes, you would be able to make a valid comparison - but, you don't have the necessary skills, so you're forced by that inability to apply remedies within your skill set. Bear in mind that no one has said that boots are not effective in the remediation of solar pain; rather, that shoes are much more effective, for reasons stated previously, ad nauseam.

T.S's admission that he is retired explains how he is able to write extensive posts on so many boards.

LMAO! Do you find my ability to easily refute barefoot dogma to be somewhat offputting? Get used to it, I have plenty of free time. :)

He is a bored old grump, why give him entertainment?

I'll confess I find the constant attempts of the barefoot camp to substitute dogma for reality to be somewhat boring, but I don't mind setting folks on the path of footcare righteousness from time to time. Did you wish to argue that any boot is a more efficacious remedy than a correctly applied shoe in the mitigation of solar pain? If so, you have only to present your argument for the benefit of the OP. Or, since you are limited by your lack of skills to using less effective means of remediation, you can continue to digress with your usual ad hominem smokescreen. I mean you no disrespect in pointing out the comparative ineffectiveness of boots when compared to shoes in the remediation of solar pain: boots are better than nothing - but shoes are better than boots. :)

[Appassionato]

Do Easy Boots come in front and hind shapes? Clearly all feet are different shapes. Unless you have a technique for reshaping a boot something is sticking out somewhere- otherwise you could not pull it on over the foot, right? In other hoofcare discussions we argue about the appropriateness of millimeter differences in shoeing/trimming theories, and then we apply a generic shaped boot to the foot. This has never made much sense to me.
As sore as the owner describes this horse to be, there is at least the possibility of laminitis. Would an extension on any direction be a mechanically desirable? For that manner, would you consider an extension to be advantageous for any horse just because a generic shape happened to dictate it?
Remember, I am not "anti boot". I just find it interesting how people who are anti shoe can suggest something with less specific mechanical influence on the hoof and limb as a positive treatment modality.

Agreed!

[JB]

Refer you to the reply I gave before, the constant persistent never ending posts of links to BUA websites.
Well then, please show me a shoeing website that shows, in the detail that many of the barefoot sites show, how to properly trim a foot. THAT is the ONLY reason that "we" post those sites, since it has been far more often than not that the underlying cause of posters' threads is a poor trim. I can't tell you how many times "we" have said "this isn't about shoes vs not, this is about fixing the trim and then sdo whatever you feel is best beyond that."

If the moderators want to end the shoes vs barefoot nonsense once and for all they rightfully ought to shut down any thread they see that somebody posts one of those.
George
You folks are the ones who turn this into shoes vs barefoot by accusing us of making it only about barefoot. These threads could go merrily along with loads of valuable information if you farriers would simply say "sure, boots might help might not, this horse might be able to go barefoot, he might not, but since shoes need to be at least considered, here is what I would recommend" - end of story. You farriers always start the heat here with your BUA accusations - we don't start the heat.

[JB]

Do Easy Boots come in front and hind shapes? Clearly all feet are different shapes.

I don't believe any boot comes in front vs hind shapes. They come in whatever shape and size is best suited for *that* foot at *that* time. Some boots are more suited to rounder feet, so would not be suitable to a hind foot. But some, like, IIRC, the G2 Old Macs, are more suited to the pathological oval front foot, so could indeed be more suitable for a hind foot. The older Old Macs are more round. Since they mostly come in pairs, and you'd have to buy 2 pairs anyway if you wanted to boot all 4, it's not beyond thinking that you'd just buy 2 different makes of boots if the length and width of the hinds dictated you got G2 OMs, and the l/w of the fronts dictated you got Easy Boot Bares, for example.

[reillyshoe]

There are variations among differing brands of horseshoes in terms of shape. In addition, many horseshoes are available in front and hind as well as left and right shaped configuration. I doubt many horseowners would be happy if we applied these to the horse without conforming them to the individual foot.
Boots cannot be applied if they are too small since they have to fit over the foot, and are therefore limited to the fit of the largest aspect of the foot. A hoof that is wide at the toe but narrow at the heels must be fit wide at the heels to accomadate the toe. A foot that is assymetrical in a medial/lateral plane must wear a boot that fits over the larger half of the hoof. For right or wrong, these changes cannot be accomodated for as the boot shape cannot be changed.

The fact that it is only necessary for a horseshoe to fit in two dimensions while a boot needs to fit the hoof in three dimensions make it much more likely that a horseshoe would fit right out of the box than a boot.

[JB]

For right or wrong, these changes cannot be accomodated for as the boot shape cannot be changed.
To some degree, many variations like this can be altered to fit with the use of inserts, which many types of boots have available.

The fact that it is only necessary for a horseshoe to fit in two dimensions while a boot needs to fit the hoof in three dimensions make it much more likely that a horseshoe would fit right out of the box than a boot.
They each have benefits and detriments, depending on the situation.

[ASB Stars]

I have glanced through this thread just enough to see that it has degenerated into the barefoot vs shoes, and how about boots mess. So, without seeing if there were any other permutations on the theme, I did want to offer something that I found useful for one of my mares.

A bit over a year ago, Mimi became laminitic, while the ground was in our lovely PA frozen rutted mud phase. So, she was sore, and we needed to do something for her. I was able to get the laminitis under control, but, she still had some residual soreness. I have a old Cushingoid pony who had been badly foundered before I got him, and I remember to this day the look on his face when the blacksmith put the shoes on that were recommended by the Vet. So, I was determined NOT to try to nail anything into this mares feet.

The solution I used was a glue on shoe, with a pour in pad. My thinking was that when we took the shoes off, there would be no nail holes for her to get down to- causing further issues, and, as she normally has beautiful feet, I had no intention of keeping her in shoes for any period of time beyond what was necessary for her to get comfortable.

She kept the shoes on- with the pad- for six weeks. I was amazed, as she lives out, and through the mud, and freezing, the darn things stayed on tight. I would recommend this approach for anyone who is concerned about nailing into an already traumatized foot.

For what it is worth, I have, and use boots, as well. I had my coming four year old blow an abcess, and it left a hole in his sole. He really wanted to go back out, so, I was able to put his boots on him, with some padding in the boot, and off he went to play.

There are so many ways to approach different issues. I try to consider what my own skills are in attempting to treat something, and when I am out of my league, I listen to what the "experts" have to say, and consider their opinion. I will say that the days of giving carte blanche to anyone working on my horses ended some time ago. I try to put the best people I can around my horses- and create a team to care for them- but I never forget who has the ultimate responsibility for their welfare.

[reillyshoe]

To some degree, many variations like this can be altered to fit with the use of inserts, which many types of boots have available.

Exactly how? You can fill in the parts that don't fit, but the end result is still the same- a mechanical extension.
Imagine I pull a shoe out of the box and set it on a foot. I could take the first size that isn't too small anywhere and nail it to the foot and fill in with glue anywhere the shoe extends beyond the perimeter of the foot. This would probably help some horses, but the mechanical effects would be far from ideal.
The OPs horse might benefit from something like a soft ride boot, but it might also make the situation worse. My point is not that boots are bad, but rather that I don't understand how some individuals who dislike shoes find boots to be a preferable substitute when the mechanical changes on the foot and limb are much less predictable.

[Appassionato]

Well said ASB Stars! Shoes vs. boots vs. bare should be up to the horse's needs, not our idealogies.

There was a point where nothing BUT Sigafoos glue-ons could be used no my guy. Mine stayed on 8 weeks (we needed some hoof, badly), I'm sure Mr. Pat remembers me PM'ing him about that! :winkgrin: And this was on a 24/7 turned out horse as well. Jaye still had to pry the darn things off of him! That glue is unreal!

As far as booting others, I completely agree with you. A horse that is trimmed too short, yeah, boots may be all that it needs. Boots for an otherwise sound horse that is transitioning to barefoot is fine too. But the idea that lower carbs and etc. will somehow change genetics? Um, not so much. :winkgrin:

I really do hope that the OP is able to find info that might help her horse in this thread.

[JHUshoer20]

Well then, please show me a shoeing website that shows, in the detail that many of the barefoot sites show, how to properly trim a foot. Most of the shoeing sites will touch on that without the anti-shoeing propaganda. Is not much need to get into it in detail because it's pretty elementary beginner level stuff that wouldn't hold people's interest for long. THAT is the ONLY reason that "we" post those sites, since it has been far more often than not that the underlying cause of posters' threads is a poor trim. whether that be true or not is a secondary reason taking a back seat to the primary one of pushing propaganda.


You folks are the ones who turn this into shoes vs barefoot by accusing us of making it only about barefoot. These threads could go merrily along with loads of valuable information if you farriers would simply say "sure, boots might help might not, this horse might be able to go barefoot, he might not, but since shoes need to be at least considered, here is what I would recommend" - end of story. You farriers always start the heat here with your BUA accusations - we don't start the heat.
Wrong, you'll find we can both agree that boots are better than nothing in this case. Mr Stovall has proven with much class and eloquence that shoes are not only better than boots but also the best choice for the OPs horse. A few of you can't accept that and are trying to say boots are somehow superior to shoes. This argument is silly and is no wonder you're all getting frustrated.

When you run out of logic you digress to name calling and such which is the best sign of defeat. You ought to give it up nobody beats Mr Stovall:lol:
George

[ASB Stars]

Well said ASB Stars! Shoes vs. boots vs. bare should be up to the horse's needs, not our idealogies.

There was a point where nothing BUT Sigafoos glue-ons could be used no my guy. Mine stayed on 8 weeks (we needed some hoof, badly), I'm sure Mr. Pat remembers me PM'ing him about that! :winkgrin: And this was on a 24/7 turned out horse as well. Jaye still had to pry the darn things off of him! That glue is unreal!

.

I actually used the Mustad glue ons for this application- although I have three different sizes of Sigafoos' in my tackroom right now, just in case! :lol:

The Mustads, with the shoe inside the plastic, were deeper, and I thought would allow for a thicker pad, and more support, for this horse. They also were really, really easy to apply. What there weren't was easy to shape. They were pure hell to bang open to fit this mare. And I doubt I'd want to really ride anything in them, while I use the Sigafoos for one of my other mares all of the time. :winkgrin:

[Lookout]

Most of the shoeing sites will touch on that without the anti-shoeing propaganda. Is not much need to get into it in detail because it's pretty elementary beginner level stuff that wouldn't hold people's interest for long. whether that be true or not is a secondary reason taking a back seat to the primary one of pushing propaganda.

Nonsense. 'Beginners' are always hungry for that information and it's nowhere to be found except for barefoot sites. Even with all the disagreement barefoot people can pretty much agree on what a healthy hoof shape is. Two farriers usually can't. It's like pulling teeth to get a description of good hoof form, mostly because they never sat down and thought about it. And when you do get one, it's so vague as to be meaningless. They would have you believe that there are no generalities or principles common to all horses, so since each case is so vastly different, no guidelines can be written down. Keeps it complicated.

[enjoytheride]

I think that is because many barefooters consider it some sort of complicated and magical act to trim a barefoot horse properly, but at the same time maintain that anyone can do it. A good farrier thinks that a good trim is a good trim, nothing magical about it.

My farrier could put a barefoot trim on my horse that held up to jumping and showing every week, put a set of shoes on a reiner, shoe a dressage horse, shoe a country pleasure horse, and rebuild a hoof out of epoxy after it had been removed for surgery. He goes to seminars all the time, and people fly him out to major horse shows to shoe. He can talk about foot mechanics, hoof cell structure, angles, correcting club feet, etc.

[Auventera Two]

I think that is because many barefooters consider it some sort of complicated and magical act to trim a barefoot horse properly, but at the same time maintain that anyone can do it. A good farrier thinks that a good trim is a good trim, nothing magical about it.

There is nothing magical or secret about a good trim. But the mechanics, functions, and structures of the hoof are often WAY under-estimated or misunderstood. The way the hoof functions is much more complex than what it looks like on the surface.

Sure, you can simply trim this or cut that back or not trim this part - but do you know WHY? Do you know exactly what response the foot will have, and why? Trimming itself is pretty simple. But the biomechanics and neurological function of the foot and distal limb are really pretty complex. Don't know about anybody else, but it's not enough for me to just know how to trim. Care of the equine distal limb is about far far more than just "trimming!"

Farriers would have you believe that you are hostage to the cards the horse was dealt, and that is false.

[JB]

Exactly how? You can fill in the parts that don't fit, but the end result is still the same- a mechanical extension.
Imagine I pull a shoe out of the box and set it on a foot. I could take the first size that isn't too small anywhere and nail it to the foot and fill in with glue anywhere the shoe extends beyond the perimeter of the foot. This would probably help some horses, but the mechanical effects would be far from ideal.
The OPs horse might benefit from something like a soft ride boot, but it might also make the situation worse. My point is not that boots are bad, but rather that I don't understand how some individuals who dislike shoes find boots to be a preferable substitute when the mechanical changes on the foot and limb are much less predictable.
I never said any boot, much less any boot that needed an insert, was a good thing for any horse in any situation. My point was that for certain horses under certain conditions boots are perfect, and when the perfect fit can't be obtained, for some other subset of those horses, inserts are a very viable option. Nothing more, nothing less.

Most of the shoeing sites will touch on that without the anti-shoeing propaganda.
Can you please post one? And why do they only "touch on it"?

Is not much need to get into it in detail because it's pretty elementary beginner level stuff that wouldn't hold people's interest for long. whether that be true or not is a secondary reason taking a back seat to the primary one of pushing propaganda.
I really disagree. Sure, for some people, the how's/what's/when's/why's are going to glaze the eyes of some. But most of the people posting these types of threads are doing so because they want to learn! They want to see the nitty gritty detail, which many barefoot sites provide, and that is why "we" keep posting them. I often include hopeforsoundness in my list because it's a good shoe/trim site, but it just doesn't go into the details of trimming like the barefoot-only sites do. Many barefoot sites do not "push" barefoot, the push proper trimming. Yes, there are some (that I never list) that are vehemently anti-shoe. But many of the good ones are just about the trim, period, because that's where it all starts.

Mr Stovall has proven with much class and eloquence that shoes are not only better than boots but also the best choice for the OPs horse.
Nothing is proven until something is tried and works for this horse.

A few of you can't accept that and are trying to say boots are somehow superior to shoes. This argument is silly and is no wonder you're all getting frustrated.
No, most of us are not saying that boots are superior in all cases, or even in this case. We are saying they are an ALTERNATIVE that might, or might not work for this horse. You farriers are the ones who immediately jump in and say hogwash to even trying it.

I think that is because many barefooters consider it some sort of complicated and magical act to trim a barefoot horse properly, but at the same time maintain that anyone can do it. A good farrier thinks that a good trim is a good trim, nothing magical about it.
I think you will find that most of "us" don't maintain that anyone can do it - I sure don't, I know DDB doesn't, I know matryoshka and several others cringe when they see the work of some. "We" also think that a good trim is a good trim - why does one have to be a farrier to think that? :confused: To those who don't know what it takes to trim well, it IS magical and for some of those, that's why they want to learn.

My farrier could put a barefoot trim on my horse that held up to jumping and showing every week, put a set of shoes on a reiner, shoe a dressage horse, shoe a country pleasure horse, and rebuild a hoof out of epoxy after it had been removed for surgery. He goes to seminars all the time, and people fly him out to major horse shows to shoe. He can talk about foot mechanics, hoof cell structure, angles, correcting club feet, etc.
Your point is...what? Could it be that trimmers are inferior to farriers because they don't shoe? That doesn't make us inferior. That makes us the general practitioner to your surgeon. You infer that an owner isn't doing their horse justice if they don't have a farrier trim their feet when the horse doesn't need shoes - why would I go to a surgeon when I just need a GP? You infer that a good trimmer won't tell a client they need shoes, or graciously bow out when the client insists on shoes, and that's just not true. A good trimer can "talk about foot mechanics, hoof cell structure, angles, correcting club feet, etc." - why is that relegated to farriers? Farriers take good trimming to another level - applying whatever orthodics they deem necessary to make the best of that foot. Nothing wrong with that, and in fact, it's a GOOD thing! But likewise, there is nothing wrong with a trimmer only trimming, and booting, if that is what takes care of that horse's needs.

[grayarabs]

I just wanted to comment on the excellent photos Roo LuLu posted No 63.
You can see and learn many things from photos.
I have photos of my horse's hooves - and study them on my computer screen - before and after trimming. I find that very helpful.
As an aside - one can easily see on photos if heels are high, contracted, under-run, uneven etc - if toes are too long - or not enough toe height, etc etc.

[enjoytheride]

Thanks for twisting everything around. My point is that a FARRIER should be able to do all of the things a "barefoot trimmer" can do and more (because he also puts shoes on). There should not be any need to seek out a specialist trimmer if your farrier is qualified. Someone suggesting that shoes might be the best choice for your horse and explaining why doesn't make them evil.

[irishcas]

I think that is because many barefooters consider it some sort of complicated and magical act to trim a barefoot horse properly, but at the same time maintain that anyone can do it.


My gosh this is so not true. I always say it is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE to trim a foot and it isn't. The shocking part is why so many (not all) farriers can't simply trim a foot.

Sole paring, excessive bar trimming, not acknowledging flares is a majority of the issues. I believe all owners should be able to maintain a trim on their horses, physical issues of human taken into consideration of course.

On a healthy hoof not much times is required for a trim. Pathologies, yes a professional is needed and YES that includes a barefoot only hoof care professional.

But those who feel threatened will continually degrade and abuse those who promote something different. No biggie, those that want to hear will.


My farrier could put a barefoot trim on my horse that held up to jumping and showing every week, put a set of shoes on a reiner, shoe a dressage horse, shoe a country pleasure horse, and rebuild a hoof out of epoxy after it had been removed for surgery. He goes to seminars all the time, and people fly him out to major horse shows to shoe. He can talk about foot mechanics, hoof cell structure, angles, correcting club feet, etc.

Well than hang on to him then, he sounds unique.

[Daydream Believer]

No, most of us are not saying that boots are superior in all cases, or even in this case. We are saying they are an ALTERNATIVE that might, or might not work for this horse. You farriers are the ones who immediately jump in and say hogwash to even trying it.

That's pretty much all I am trying to say about boots also. That they are a valid alternative to shoes in many circumstances. You farriers can argue until you are blue in the face about the inherent superiority of shoes but you can't change one major fact...once applied by nails or glue, they are locked into place for weeks at a time. Boots offer great flexibility and allow the user to adjust to varied needs better. Here is an interesting article I was sent by a friend on police horses in Houston going barefoot and booted as needed and how much better it is working for them than metal shoes.

http://www.thehorseshoof.com/success_Houston1.html

http://www.thehorseshoof.com/success_Houston2.html


I think you will find that most of "us" don't maintain that anyone can do it - I sure don't, I know DDB doesn't, I know matryoshka and several others cringe when they see the work of some. "We" also think that a good trim is a good trim - why does one have to be a farrier to think that? :confused: To those who don't know what it takes to trim well, it IS magical and for some of those, that's why they want to learn.

You said it well and I feel the same. Trimming is not rocket science but at the same time, it requires attention to detail and taking time to do it right and learn.

Your point is...what? Could it be that trimmers are inferior to farriers because they don't shoe? That doesn't make us inferior. That makes us the general practitioner to your surgeon. You infer that an owner isn't doing their horse justice if they don't have a farrier trim their feet when the horse doesn't need shoes - why would I go to a surgeon when I just need a GP? You infer that a good trimmer won't tell a client they need shoes, or graciously bow out when the client insists on shoes, and that's just not true. A good trimer can "talk about foot mechanics, hoof cell structure, angles, correcting club feet, etc." - why is that relegated to farriers? Farriers take good trimming to another level - applying whatever orthodics they deem necessary to make the best of that foot. Nothing wrong with that, and in fact, it's a GOOD thing! But likewise, there is nothing wrong with a trimmer only trimming, and booting, if that is what takes care of that horse's needs.

As hard as it is to find a half decent farrier who shows up when he/she is supposed to or does good work anymore, it's hardly any wonder that people are turning to trimmers or simply learning the principles of trimming themselves and using boots. Many of us learned due to necessity and are helping others to learn. Freedom from waiting on people to finally show up to trim feet is intoxicating...and my horses' feet have never looked better since I've done them myself.

I also find that the clients that approach me are people who want to learn badly and many complain that when they've asked questions about why things were being done a certain way, they were dissatisfied with the answers or the offense that farriers took when asked why. I find that people want to understand what is going on with their horses feet and want someone to explain it to them...and explain in detail the plan to treat their horses' problems. Also, people are eager to understand more on how husbandry can affect feet...the big picture...not just showing up and trimming feet and not talking about management issues that can affect their horses overall health and hoof quality.

I don't twist anyone's arm to use me and I will happily refer them to a couple of farriers I work with if they want to use shoes. Many of these farriers are very busy and won't take on new clients that aren't referred to them.

I actually have one local farrier that refers trim clients to me and he has been raving to all sorts of folks about my work. So respect and working together is possible despite the atmosphere on these threads. :yes: He and I have talked several times about trimming, tools, and discussed issues and one night he pulled Ramey's book out of his truck to discuss his techniques with me...;)

[grayarabs]

DDB - yes Houston HPD has many barefoot horses - more and more being taken barefoot.
One of the officers has trimmed horses at our barn - including mine. Super (busy) nice guy.
Some of the horses at the barn are trimmed by a shoer/farrier and some by a barefoot trimmer - all barefoot. Different methods/training and approach to the hooves and the trim.

[WW_Queen]

Click here for a link to his feet:

http://web.mac.com/aubrie.holmberg/Site/Spikers_Feet_2008.html

He was trotting and fussing when I walked him in the indoor (soft footing), and although he was typically stiff he was able to move without much problems. Once he got back onto the hard ground (snowy/ice and barn floor) he was immediately "ouchy" again.

IMO, his feet are proportionally too small and he has no heels (an on-going problem which is not this farrier's fault). I think he just cut him too short.

Vet is coming out tomorrow to give him the once over.

[JB]

Thanks for twisting everything around.
I didn't :)

My point is that a FARRIER should be able to do all of the things a "barefoot trimmer" can do and more (because he also puts shoes on).
This was never an argument from any trimmer's point of view.

There should not be any need to seek out a specialist trimmer if your farrier is qualified.
Who said anyone needs to find a trimmer if their farrier can do the job? No one. Time and time again I see threads where someone says "I want to take my horse barefoot, where can I find a trimmer?" To which I reply "if your farrier is already trimming the hoof well, why don't you use him?" or "If the trim is so bad that you 1) don't want to use this farrier anymore and 2) want to try things barefoot, then find the best person qualified - might be a trimmer, might be a farrier."

Someone suggesting that shoes might be the best choice for your horse and explaining why doesn't make them evil.
Who said shoes were evil here? Again, no one.

Farriers on these threads jump on the trimmers for not suggesting shoes, even when the barefoot or boot suggestions are just that - suggestions. That is the problem here. It's not difficult to politely just say "sure, barefoot might be an option, boots might be an option, but shoes are also an option and perhaps might be the best option in *this* case".

Oh, but wait, I've said that about 80 times on this thread already - doesn't sink in though.

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

No wonder he's so sore!

I should have better explained how to take pictures, but from the ones you provided there is some MAJOR heel that needs to be brought BACK. It's fooling you into thinking he has none. He has plenty, it's just run forward of where it's supposed to be. Bar needs to come down a wee bit so it's not a primary weight bearer. Back of the hoof is contracted, but with the heels where they are, it's no wonder. It would really open up beautifully if that was addressed.

Separation of the white line at the toe which (someone correct me if I'm off base) in this case is probably due to the toe bearing most of the weight load. The heels need to be brought DOWN and BACK to encourage a heel first landing and loading.

Will try and draw on the pictures...I've got some major Biology/Calculus/English homework....:(

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

In the meantime, you might want to refer to the links of photos I posted on #63. They help to explain what I mean by down and backing the heels...

[Daydream Believer]

IMO, his feet are proportionally too small and he has no heels (an on-going problem which is not this farrier's fault). I think he just cut him too short.


Oh, he has heels...they are just very badly underrun and crushed and laid over bar. :no: I think it is pretty clear that the trim could be a lot better and is a significant part of his soreness problem. His feet don't look over short to me really and unfortunately I see heels like his all too often. You really need to find a hoof care practitioner...farrier...trimmer... whoever...who can do a correct trim for him and help you protect his feet as best possible to get him over his soreness. I do think he's a candidate for boots if you want to try that to get him through this crisis (after a good trim) and certainly shoes applied by a competent farrier over a proper trim could help him also. Your choice as you are his owner. Best of luck with him.

[Lauren!]

Glad to hear he's feeling a bit better, at least in soft footing.

I wouldn't say he has no heels as much as they look very underrun and/or crushed to me. That may be a big part of the problem, regardless of whether he's shod or not. His toes don't look way to short to me, more out of proportion to the rest of his foot than short (because of his heels). You need a good farrier or trimmer to start correcting this - it can be fixed, I have a horse like this, and he looks great as long as you keep on top of his heels. You can't fix everything at once of course, so it's hard to say not knowing what they looked like before the trim. I'm curious to see what others think as well :)

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

Last thing, I promise. I really need to go do my homework....

Are his hind legs always that puffy? Is there any way you can get more shots, similar to this: http://equinextionforu.gossiping.net/viewtopic.php?t=440

I'm interested to see what the bottom of those hinds looks like...

[Appassionato]

I think the heels are definately a source of pain for this horse. My concerns about taking the horses heels down and leaving him bare is 1) his quarters are breaking apart, they can't bear his weight, 2) this horse is very flat-soled, I stand by my former thoughts of getting x-rays since taking the heels down more will eliminate the ground clearance he's got (although those heels HAVE to go), 3) the rings are questionable. What's interesting to me is the rings on the front left have a "wave" to them, the other one doesn't. Metabolic testing might help narrow down what's going on with this horse as well.

[CookiePony]

Question: is there any way to tell from the solar shot if the soles were pared a lot in front of the frog? Or is it too long post trim?

[WW_Queen]

This has been an on-going issue, and every farrier I use I always stress the heel issue. The farrier that I had been using for a while seemed to have difficulty in getting his heels up (obviously they are tricky!!) so obviously I made the switch.

However, now I've had three different farriers since with no improvement.

I guess I need to know how to get this "fixed". Proper farrier (I suppose I will go back to sporthorse guy...) aaannndddd what? More wedges? Pour-in's? Those cushion thingies?

I just want to make him comfortable ASAP, and THEN figure out what a long-term solution to get his heels up are.

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

Sole pressure is a GOOD thing. The sole is meant to share in the weight bearing process. What this horse needs is a good trim, a low sugar diet, and to be turned out so he can get moving and get those hooves healing. The flat footedness will reverse with time. Nothing can change that. You can't carve concavity into their hooves and nailing a shoe on sure as hell doesn't create it either.

A little bit of soreness isn't such a bad thing. If those inner structures have been compromised, it's going to be a bit painful to get them working again. If the horse is so sore that he's not moving, boot him up, spread his hay and get him MOVING.

[Auventera Two]

The heels are a problem. You have waaaay more heel than the horse needs. But it's all crushed and run under the foot. No wonder he's in so much pain. I can't imagine he "wouldn't" be.

The heel purchase is forward near the palmar processes of the pedal bone. They need to be back at the widest point of the frog. You have heel contact and pressure on the bone instead of on the ungular cartilages, palmar to the palmar processes (in other words, behind the PPs.)

You've got to get those heels BACK where they belong. Until that happens, you're paddling a sinking ship. I used asphalt walking back in the summer to get some freakish long/underrun heels back under a horse. Some people call it the taramac promenade.

Also looks like you have lateral flare on the left hind. Your farrier is not addressing the needs of this horse, or else he just hasn't had enough time to do it yet.

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

I understand your frustration in seeing your horse in pain. It's not fun, but please understand that the trim is a large, contributing factor as to why he's in pain. You can put shoes, or boots on and get rid of the pain, but you're not solving the real issue.

His heels do NOT NOT NOT need to go up. That is a misconception that must change as it causes so much detriment to hoof health. Every ounce of evidence we have gleaned from studying wild hooves has suggested that the heels are meant to be low, with the resilient frog, lateral cartilages, and digital cushion, bearing the brunt of the weight bearing and dissipating.

Those heels need to be brought back underneath the bony colum. Right now they are way too far forward and I imagine it's about as comfortable as having a rock in your shoe.

[CookiePony]

The farrier that I had been using for a while seemed to have difficulty in getting his heels up ...


The heels need to go back, not up. IOW, what you see in his heel region is wall that is crushed under his weight, because the weight bearing surface of his heel is too far forward. So some rasping in the heel area is needed-- I know this seems counterintuitive.

[Appassionato]

I guess I need to know how to get this "fixed". Proper farrier (I suppose I will go back to sporthorse guy...) aaannndddd what? More wedges? Pour-in's? Those cushion thingies?

It's going to depend on what the x-rays show. From there, a good farrier can address the balance issues by picking which battles need to be fought now, then address the other issues as needed later. Comfort of course being an important issue. ;) Is there any possibility of hauling him to a clinic? You might be better off doing so. Have you checked at www.horseshoes.com (http://www.horseshoes.com) for farriers or some vets/vet schools/clinics? That might be the way to go.

Sole pressure can be a good thing, in moderation, on a horse with multiple issues. Otherwise, the inflammation can get much worse and create bigger problems.

[Tom Stovall]

WW_Queen in gray, deletia

http://web.mac.com/aubrie.holmberg/Site/Spikers_Feet_2008.html

IMO, his feet are proportionally too small and he has no heels (an on-going problem which is not this farrier's fault). I think he just cut him too short.

Vet is coming out tomorrow to give him the once over.

In the solar view, it appears the heels are growing toward the frog, not lateral to the midline as is normal. One of the few absolutes concerning horses' hooves is that new growth follows old; thus, in order to fix the problem, the aberrant growth must be removed and some mechanical device applied that will support the bony column while maintaining aligned phalangeal angulation within normal parameters as the hoof grows out in whatever direction is "normal" for the individual. This can usually be accomplished by using some form of wedge pad in combination with frog support and a wide webbed shoe, often in conjunction with a soft pour-in pad, and sometimes with the use of a polymeric prosthetic hoof wall.

Please be aware that if the heels are growing toward the frog, the condition may be mandated by DNA and irreversible - and no amount of cutting, whacking, barefooting, padding, booting, prayer, shoeing, wishing real hard, or anything else is going to effect a permanent change. On the other hand, timely shoeing, wedges, etc., can effect and maintain a fix that keeps the the horse in use and pain free.

[Appassionato]

In the solar view, it appears the heels are growing toward the frog, not lateral to the midline as is normal. One of the few absolutes concerning horses' hooves is that new growth follows old; thus, in order to fix the problem, the aberrant growth must be removed and some mechanical device applied that will support the bony column while maintaining aligned phalangeal angulation within normal parameters as the hoof grows out in whatever direction is "normal" for the individual. This can usually be accomplished by using some form of wedge pad in combination with frog support and a wide webbed shoe, often in conjunction with a soft pour-in pad, and sometimes with the use of a polymeric prosthetic hoof wall.

That helped mine the best. My guy's shoes had the inside sole surface of the shoe grinded out too, for additional comfort.

If the walls are shelly, Keratex Hoof Hardener helps the hoof wall stay tight so the nails don't drag through as easily. If there is some white line disease, I prefer Durasole to squirt into the openings.

Please be aware that if the heels are growing toward the frog, the condition may be mandated by DNA and irreversible - and no amount of cutting, whacking, barefooting, padding, booting, prayer, shoeing, wishing real hard, or anything else is going to effect a permanent change. On the other hand, timely shoeing, wedges, etc., can effect and maintain a fix that keeps the the horse in use and pain free.


Wishing real hard doesn't help??? Darn it! :lol:

[jack mac]

if your suggestions of how to correct this hoof were carried out over here id be marching you flanked with two police officers in to court,& you wouldn't be owning anther horse if i had my way, the problem with this horse is that it has genetically pantie feet, meaning it has a small coronet large pedal bone & large pastern bones so the hoof will grow down then natural flairs out to giving the peddle bone sufficient sole & cartilage & distal cushioning to support it & the rest of the limb structure, through stupidity ignorance & incompetents this horses has had the flairs that are part of the natural composition & structure of his genetic make up of his hooves removed on a regular basis in order to make the hoof look pretty & flair free, which has caused it to become smaller & unable to support the limb properly nor absorb concussion through fibres & hydraulic means ,this horse would genetically have heels naturally run forward to some extent, in this horses case they are exaggerated due to the hoof needing to find support to support the limb the coronet has reduced in size further causing more horn to be removed again by the incompetent, to fix this horse you need to change your mind set that ever horse should have tiny boxy donkey like hooves with no flairs , horses hooves are meant to be practical to what he was given genetically to function ,& that's not all ways pretty.

[Appassionato]

if your suggestions of how to correct this hoof were carried out over here id be marching you flanked with two police officers in to court,& you wouldn't be owning anther horse if i had my way, the problem with this horse is that it has genetically pantie feet, meaning it has a small coronet large pedal bone & large pastern bones so the hoof will grow down then natural flairs out to giving the peddle bone sufficient sole & cartilage & distal cushioning to support it & the rest of the limb structure, through stupidity ignorance & incompetents this horses has had the flairs that are part of the natural composition & structure of his genetic make up of his hooves removed on a regular basis in order to make the hoof look pretty & flair free, which has causing it to become smaller & unable to support the limb properly nor absorb concussion through fibres & hydraulic means ,this horse would genetically have heels naturally run forward to some extent, in this horses case they are exaggerated due to the hoof needing to find support to support the limb the coronet has reduced in size further causing more horn to be removed again by the incompetent to fix this horse you need to change your mind set that ever horse should have tiny boxy donkey like hooves with no flairs , horses hooves are meant to be practical to what he was given genetically to function ,& that's not all ways pretty.

It might help to know who this was directed to so they can respond/debate...

[LMH]

Please be aware that if the heels are growing toward the frog, the condition may be mandated by DNA and irreversible - and no amount of cutting, whacking, barefooting, padding, booting, prayer, shoeing, wishing real hard, or anything else is going to effect a permanent change. On the other hand, timely shoeing, wedges, etc., can effect and maintain a fix that keeps the the horse in use and pain free.

While I only have almost 5 years trimming experience, and no shoeing experience, I can add that *my* experience during those 5 years that this statement is only partially correct, unless of course by "etc" Mr Stovall also means a proper trim, in which case shoes may or may not be needed to keep him in use and pain free.

Of course there won't be a permanent change without changing to environment to one abrasive enough to allow the horse to self trim.

However, in addition to the option of shoeing is a balanced timely trim.

I have before/after shots of a TB, in a farrier's care that had heels worse than this. He is currently bare and his his are no longer at his frog. Granted left unattended they would likely grow that way again...but with proper care, they have maintained position at the widest part of the frog.

This occurred once his shoes were removed and while he has been kept bare.

Of course it could be that his DNA didn't dictate that his heels grew that way-it may have just been the bad shoeing job.:)

Either way, in ADDITION to the experience of Mr. Stovall that his success in treating this condition used a properly applied shoe, I felt it only proper for full information that you read of someone with experience treating this bare.;)

[LMH]

if your suggestions of how to correct this hoof were carried out over here id be marching you flanked with two police officers in to court,& you wouldn't be owning anther horse if i had my way, the problem with this horse is that it has genetically pantie feet, meaning it has a small coronet large pedal bone & large pastern bones so the hoof will grow down then natural flairs out to giving the peddle bone sufficient sole & cartilage & distal cushioning to support it & the rest of the limb structure, through stupidity ignorance & incompetents this horses has had the flairs that are part of the natural composition & structure of his genetic make up of his hooves removed on a regular basis in order to make the hoof look pretty & flair free, which has caused it to become smaller & unable to support the limb properly nor absorb concussion through fibres & hydraulic means ,this horse would genetically have heels naturally run forward to some extent, in this horses case they are exaggerated due to the hoof needing to find support to support the limb the coronet has reduced in size further causing more horn to be removed again by the incompetent, to fix this horse you need to change your mind set that ever horse should have tiny boxy donkey like hooves with no flairs , horses hooves are meant to be practical to what he was given genetically to function ,& that's not all ways pretty.


Genetically required flares and forward grown heels! :lol:

You farriers are a HOOT!

This stuff is GREAT for a good laugh!

[jack mac]

WW_Queen in gray, deletia

http://web.mac.com/aubrie.holmberg/Site/Spikers_Feet_2008.html

IMO, his feet are proportionally too small and he has no heels (an on-going problem which is not this farrier's fault). I think he just cut him too short.

Vet is coming out tomorrow to give him the once over.

In the solar view, it appears the heels are growing toward the frog, not lateral to the midline as is normal. One of the few absolutes concerning horses' hooves is that new growth follows old; thus, in order to fix the problem, the aberrant growth must be removed and some mechanical device applied that will support the bony column while maintaining aligned phalangeal angulation within normal parameters as the hoof grows out in whatever direction is "normal" for the individual. This can usually be accomplished by using some form of wedge pad in combination with frog support and a wide webbed shoe, often in conjunction with a soft pour-in pad, and sometimes with the use of a polymeric prosthetic hoof wall.

Please be aware that if the heels are growing toward the frog, the condition may be mandated by DNA and irreversible - and no amount of cutting, whacking, barefooting, padding, booting, prayer, shoeing, wishing real hard, or anything else is going to effect a permanent change. On the other hand, timely shoeing, wedges, etc., can effect and maintain a fix that keeps the the horse in use and pain free. you are absolutely right again Tom 100 percent ;) who would of guessed you would get it right again you have only have a mear 50 years under your belt i don't think that's enough you might have to do a bare foot trimming course to update your skill level :winkgrin::D

[jack mac]

Genetically required flares and forward grown heels! :lol:

You farriers are a HOOT!

This stuff is GREAT for a good laugh! ill take your word for it, all of the 5 years of it :lol:come to Australia & practice, ill gladly find you some rent free accommodation for a year or two ;)

[Auventera Two]

I also corrected the heels of my Appendix without shoes. No "appliances" necessary. ;) Just a nice balanced trim every 4 weeks. The feet were similiar to these with the heels run way forward halfway to the apex.

Amazing how a good trim can override "bad DNA" isn't it? :lol:

[jack mac]

I also corrected the heels of my Appendix without shoes. No "appliances" necessary. ;) Just a nice balanced trim every 4 weeks. The feet were similiar to these with the heels run way forward halfway to the apex.

Amazing how a good trim can override "bad DNA" isn't it? :lol:those heels do not need more trimmed of them nor the bars touched & you are very smug in your comments but that's what one would expect from a moderator who stacks the deck on this forum, because there pro trimming never let a good story get in the way of the truth, have a good look at the pasterns smarty pants & tell me those feet need to be trimmed more or dont you think those feet seem a little small, you need to get out & about more, say out of your shoe box & have a good hard look at a lot more horses before you shoot your mouth off, any time you wish to post your trimming pics id be glade to post some of mine & we will find out how good you really are PS whats the weather like up there in your threatening to life ban tower

[Appassionato]

A2 is a moderator? For real?

[Lookout]

The reason your farriers haven't been able to solve this problem is because they're addressing the wrong one. I will agree with everyone who has said his heels need to come back not up.
This is why these debates of shoes/no shoes/boots are almost always premature and irrelevant (not to mention destructive) because they're not arguing about the actual problem either - the trim! It's not going to help your horse to put either shoes or boots onto a bad trim.

There are no sole shots of the hinds, but judging from the side view the heels are even further forward on them than on the fronts. That is probably the source of his 'stifle lameness'.

I hope you can find someone more knowledgeable to help you out.

Question: is there any way to tell from the solar shot if the soles were pared a lot in front of the frog? Or is it too long post trim?

That's a good question. Not really. In fact I was expecting that from the OP's description but that aspect of the trim actually looks like it could be okay.

[LMH]

so jack mac, if the heels are just fine:eek: what would YOU...shoe him like this?:eek::eek::eek:

[jack mac]

did you have a better look this time ? lets see your picks know A2 on how great a trimmer you are ? let start with some of your own horses hooves maybe i can enlighten you on how good or poor your work is ? are you up for the challenge because old Dr mac is :yes:;)

[jack mac]

so jack mac, if the heels are just fine:eek: what would YOU...shoe him like this?:eek::eek::eek: the same as any horse you place the heels of the shoe were it should be the problem with most farriers & trimmers they are only looking at the foot, trouble is they haven't a clue what represents the true shape of a horses foot internally & externally, & don't incorporate the pastern length or size in to the calculation of heel placement, example a horse with a long pastern will have a different angle to the ground at a stride then that of a horse with a sort pastern, as the heel in a front hoof is the first part of the hoof to hit the ground those with long pasterns will have heels further forward & of a different slop to cater for that angle, what your Dr sole callus has written in regards to how heels of a horse should be trimmed is dodo of the highest level & any one who follows that tripe is getting it wrong :yes:

[JB]

so jack mac, if the heels are just fine:eek: what would YOU...shoe him like this?:eek::eek::eek:

Apparently the answer is... Yes! :eek:

[S1969]

the same as any horse you place the heels of the shoe were it should be the problem with most farriers & trimmers they are only looking at the foot, trouble is they haven't a clue what represents the true shape of a horses foot internally & externally, & don't incorporate the pastern length or size in to the calculation of heel placement, example a horse with a long pastern will have a different angle to the ground at a stride then that of a horse with a sort pastern, as the heels in a front hoofs are the first part of the hoof to hit the ground those with long pasterns will have heels further forward & of a different slop to cater for that angle, what your Dr sole callus has written in regards to how heels of a horse should be trimmed is dodo of the highest level & any one who follows that tripe is getting it wrong :yes:

I'm following this thread with interest, because although I think I have a very good farrier (who shoes when necessary, thinks boots have some advantages, but has many a barefoot client)...I certainly think I could learn a lot about what makes a good trim. However, I find a lot of this hard to follow....perhaps it's the insults being flung back and forth?

Can someone help the wee laypeople understand without all the trash-talking? (Or maybe that takes all the fun out of it?)

[jack mac]

Apparently the answer is... Yes! :eek:how much lower do you what those heels to go jb, till they bleed ?

[JB]

how much lower do you what those heels to go jb, till they bleed ?

If you had actually been reading here instead of assuming, you would see that not a single person has said the heels need to be lower. Every person who has chimed in, and I agree, says the heels need to be brought *back*, and that means rasping them.

Even your highly esteemed Mr Stovall, whom you nearly always passionately pat on the back and agree with and give gold stars to, has said as much.

Perhaps you don't understand what crushed heels are?


In the solar view, it appears the heels are growing toward the frog, not lateral to the midline as is normal. One of the few absolutes concerning horses' hooves is that new growth follows old; thus, in order to fix the problem, the aberrant growth must be removed and some mechanical device applied that will support the bony column while maintaining aligned phalangeal angulation within normal parameters as the hoof grows out in whatever direction is "normal" for the individual. This can usually be accomplished by using some form of wedge pad in combination with frog support and a wide webbed shoe, often in conjunction with a soft pour-in pad, and sometimes with the use of a polymeric prosthetic hoof wall.

[jack mac]

As for the bars they work as gussets to support the heel on impact with the ground

[jack mac]

If you had actually been reading here instead of assuming, you would see that not a single person has said the heels need to be lower. Every person who has chimed in, and I agree, says the heels need to be brought *back*, and that means rasping them.

Even your highly esteemed Mr Stovall, whom you nearly always passionately pat on the back and agree with and give gold stars to, has said as much.

Perhaps you don't understand what crushed heels are? lol & how will you manage that with out further lowering them your ignorance is paramount.

[jack mac]

crushed heels you mean butchered feet don't you, the work of a trimmer who kept lowering them & carving the bars out in some futile attempt to make them to appear to look wider i have seen it more than a thousand times.

[Auventera Two]

A2 is a moderator? For real?

:lol: This forum is just rich, isn't it?? More drama than Desperate Housewives and as much attitude as Roseanne Bar.

jack - You are looking a set of nicely crushed heels. If you can't recognize that, then I guess we have nothing to talk about.

[Auventera Two]

crushed heels you mean butchered feet don't you, the work of a trimmer who kept lowering them & carving the bars out in some futile attempt to make them to appear to look wider i have seen it more than a thousand times.

:lol: Surely you jest.

A FARRIER has been trimming these feet - not a trimmer. And the feet are not butchered. The heels are just neglected and addressed inappropriately.

New follows old. The tubules are bent, growing forward, and crushed under the horse. The only way to get new, correct growth is to move the heels BACK and encourage new growth.

If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got. Keep letting the heels run under the horse - and they'll just keep running under the horse.

[JB]

lol & how will you manage that with out further lowering them your ignorance is paramount.

Well gosh, since it's apparent you've never done it, you wouldn't understand if I explained it to you. Perhaps you should take it up with your friends instead.

And, FYI, I HAVE done just what I, and others, have said - rasped to get the CRUSHED material (that is still right there) off and bring the heels back as much as they can be at any given time, without drawing blood or even close to it - how about that? But, since I'm sooo inexperienced compared to you, that doesn't really count now does it :rolleyes:

[JB]

crushed heels you mean butchered feet don't you,
*snort* jack, butchering makes a huge assumption that something was done to the hoof part. It's painfully (to the horse's body, and my eyes) that nothing has been done to these heels. Goodness, I would have thought you, with your vast years of experience, would have seen that.

the work of a trimmer
LMAO!! A FARRIER did this. Nice try though ;)

who kept lowering them & carving the bars out in some futile attempt to make them to appear to look wider i have seen it more than a thousand times.
Oh wow, you honestly believe that? How sad for the horse.

[Daydream Believer]

And, FYI, I HAVE done just what I, and others, have said - rasped to get the CRUSHED material (that is still right there) off and bring the heels back as much as they can be at any given time, without drawing blood or even close to it - how about that? But, since I'm sooo inexperienced compared to you, that doesn't really count now does it :rolleyes:

I've fixed a number of horses with crushed heels like this by doing the same thing...bring them "back" just as she says. It's remarkable how well many of them do with a correct trim and it's one of the most common trim problems I see....and I'll wager that is true for most of us trimmers. I was asked to one barn where every single horses' feet looked like that (done by the same farrier) and all were able to be corrected. Only one horse needed the support of hoof boots during the process.

I think what gets some farriers in trouble is the idea that they should never "lower" the heels to maintain alignment of the fetlock...so instead they let the heels grow forward like that and next thing you know you have a horse that looks like that one. I have one boarder here that has a horse done by a local farrier and she told me that "no one will ever cut the heels off her horse" and sadly, his feet look a lot like this horse's feet. :no:

[jack mac]

*snort* jack, butchering makes a huge assumption that something was done to the hoof part. It's painfully (to the horse's body, and my eyes) that nothing has been done to these heels. Goodness, I would have thought you, with your vast years of experience, would have seen that.


LMAO!! A FARRIER did this. Nice try though ;)


Oh wow, you honestly believe that? How sad for the horse.have a good look at the bulbs cant you see the contraction that must of happened all by its self :rolleyes: JB wonder boy, i think your stretchy pants are getting a little to tight & its affecting your eyesight, now I'm going to ask the moderator to move you a long in a min, as you don't seem to be contributing much but insults to me:yes:

[JB]

have a good look at the bulbs cant you see the contraction that must of happened all by its self
Or, could it perhaps be, that those long toes and crushed, underrun, LONG heels caused the contraction?

JB wonder boy,
*giggle*

now I'm going to ask the moderator to move you a long in a min, as you don't seem to be contributing much but insults to me:yes:
You go right ahead.

[jack mac]

I've fixed a number of horses with crushed heels like this by doing the same thing...bring them "back" just as she says. It's remarkable how well many of them do with a correct trim and it's one of the most common trim problems I see....and I'll wager that is true for most of us trimmers. I was asked to one barn where every single horses' feet looked like that (done by the same farrier) and all were able to be corrected. Only one horse needed the support of hoof boots during the process.

I think what gets some farriers in trouble is the idea that they should never "lower" the heels to maintain alignment of the fetlock...so instead they let the heels grow forward like that and next thing you know you have a horse that looks like that one. I have one boarder here that has a horse done by a local farrier and she told me that "no one will ever cut the heels off her horse" and sadly, his feet look a lot like this horse's feet. :no:the bulbs are level with the ground how much lower do you think you can get them when you bring the heels back with your amazing trimming, are you going to rasp the heels more ?

[Daydream Believer]

Did you say something to me Jack? The ignore function is a great feature!

[Auventera Two]

the bulbs are level with the ground how much lower do you think you can get them when you bring the heels back with your amazing trimming, are you going to rasp the heels more ?

If you remove the heel that is crushed and run under the capsule, you're not going to be "lowering" the heels any more than they already are. Or at least very little. You will be removing overgrown tubules underneath the foot, BACK to the point where the tubules are more straight and can continue to grow down straight.

This is REALLY elementary stuff jack.

[jack mac]

If you remove the heel that is crushed and run under the capsule, you're not going to be "lowering" the heels any more than they already are. Or at least very little. You will be removing overgrown tubules underneath the foot, BACK to the point where the tubules are more straight and can continue to grow down straight.

This is REALLY elementary stuff jack.so you want to trim or rasp what remaining heel & bar this horse has for support, so you can get the tubules to grow straight,:yes: & what do you expect this poor animal to stand on while your doing all of this, you see being a properly trained professional ,id just fit a shoe to that hoof, fit the heels were there meant to be, distribute the weight to were the animals comfortable till his heels gets a bit of growth on , but may be that's a little bit to elementary

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two in gray

I also corrected the heels of my Appendix without shoes. No "appliances" necessary. ;) Just a nice balanced trim every 4 weeks. The feet were similiar to these with the heels run way forward halfway to the apex.

LMAO! If you really think you've "corrected" something, what do you think will happen if you fail to trim the beast every four weeks and allow it's hooves to revert to whatever form is mandated by its DNA and environment?

Amazing how a good trim can override "bad DNA" isn't it? :lol:

Even more amazing is what passes for logic in the barefoot camp. :)

[jack mac]

were your pics vic

[Tom Stovall]

Auventera Two

If you remove the heel that is crushed and run under the capsule, you're not going to be "lowering" the heels any more than they already are. Or at least very little. You will be removing overgrown tubules underneath the foot, BACK to the point where the tubules are more straight and can continue to grow down straight.

No ma'am, that's not how it works. New wall growth follow old. Invariably. Always. Without fail. The reason various combinations of shoes and wedges are sometimes successful in the remediation of crushed heels is that all of the aberrant wall growth can be removed - without making the horse sore or taking it out of use - and the excised wall replaced with prosthetic material and the frog used as adjunctive support for the bony column as the heels grow in the direction mandated by the horse's DNA.

This is REALLY elementary stuff jack.

Yes'm, it certainly is. :)

[Auventera Two]

were your pics vic

I have a huge website with tons of photos that I've posted the link for many times. Where are YOUR pics? Still haven't seen a single one yet, have we? :winkgrin:

[Auventera Two]

so you want to trim or rasp what remaining heel & bar this horse has for support, so you can get the tubules to grow straight,:yes: & what do you expect this poor animal to stand on while your doing all of this, you see being a properly trained professional ,id just fit a shoe to that hoof, fit the heels were there meant to be, distribute the weight to were the animals comfortable till his heels gets a bit of growth on , but may be that's a little bit to elementary

Where did I mention bars? In fact, I DID NOT, did I? ;)

I have an idea, why don't you contact the OP privately and arrange for her to fly you to wherever she is, so you can fix her horse!! :eek: :yes: Clearly you're the only one capable, so your services must be in high demand. I'm certain she'd love to hire you and pay all associated travel expenses.

So run along now and shoot off a PM. Let us know what she says! :D

[jack mac]

I have a huge website with tons of photos that I've posted the link for many times. Where are YOUR pics? Still haven't seen a single one yet, have we? :winkgrin:really i thought i posted one of a trim on a founded crushings pony & a thoroughbred that was turned out for months PS i didnt need a xray ether to do the pony not like your gurus whats the site i feel this relationship blossoming again :o:cool:

[Auventera Two]

really i thought i posted one of a trim on a founded crushings pony & a thoroughbred that was turned out for months PS i didnt need a xray ether to do the pony not like your gurus whats the site i feel this relationship blossoming again :o:cool:

I didn't see it.

So you're saying gurus need rads and you don't? Wow, your services WILL be in high demand! :yes:

[jack mac]

I didn't see it.

So you're saying gurus need rads and you don't? Wow, your services WILL be in high demand! :yes:it helps when the horse is on a goat hill & there in the NB threads shouldn't be to hard to find seen as you banned me for a week so i didn't get to post much PS this isn't going to get you a hoof stand sent over or a gold star off jack ;)

[jack mac]

If you had actually been reading here instead of assuming, you would see that not a single person has said the heels need to be lower. Every person who has chimed in, and I agree, says the heels need to be brought *back*, and that means rasping them.

Even your highly esteemed Mr Stovall, whom you nearly always passionately pat on the back and agree with and give gold stars to, has said as much.

Perhaps you don't understand what crushed heels are?as much doesnt cut it JB wonder boy, i distinctly remember something Tom s said I'm a little vague, bare with me, its slowly coming back, O that's right it was something about a horse "SHOE" :lol:

[Auventera Two]

as much doesnt cut it JB wonder boy, i distinctly remember something Tom s said I'm a little vague, bare with me, its slowly coming back, O that's right it was something about a horse "SHOE" :lol:

Some people choose to fix certain issues with shoes, some choose to do it shoeless. As long as the end result is desirable and effective, I see no problem, either way. You choose shoes, I choose shoeless. It's a big world full of choices and options. Isn't that nice? :cool:

[AnotherRound]

neener, neener, nee-ner!

[JB]

as much doesnt cut it JB wonder boy, i distinctly remember something Tom s said I'm a little vague, bare with me, its slowly coming back, O that's right it was something about a horse "SHOE" :lol:
And that's relevant...how?

[WW_Queen]

Thanks for the replies guys.

So the consensus is overall, it's not the height of the heel, it's where it is positioned in relation to the other components of his foot? (ie, heel is being crushed because it's too far forward)

That definitely makes sense, and would explain his stifle problems through inhibiting his movement and leaving him sore after every trim.

Without sounding condescending or "I could do a better job!" to my farrier(s), what do I do now? What do I tell them? Get this heel back by......?

[Daydream Believer]

Good question WW...it may be very hard to get your farrier to do things differently. As you can see, there is a great difference in how some of us would handle this problem and the farriers are approaching it differently than the trimmers...however it is quite interesting that the trimmers are unified in their approach on managing the problem I think. Can you find someone else to take a look at him? Perhaps another farrier or a trimmer? You really need to find a Hoof Care Practitioner who will address this problem and not just leave it as is or slap a shoe on over top of the bad trim he has now. Don't hesitate for a moment to ask this person how he/she plans to handle this problem, and if it doesn't sound right to you after what you've learned or you don't get a good explanation from them, find someone else. God Knows I know how hard it is to find someone who will do a good basic trim...that is why I learned to trim. Best of luck to you.

[Auventera Two]

Well, to some degree the height "is" a problem. If you follow the tubules down from coronary band to the end of heel purchase, how much heel do you "really" have? A couple inches??! The heels ARE long. But they aren't standing up. They're laying down. It's like a 5'6" person laying down flat on the ground. You STILL are 5'6" tall, but you are horizontal - not vertical. These heels are long, but they're laying down and crushed under the foot.

Quite honestly, if your farrier doesn't recognize this problem and make an effort on his own to correct it, then......I'm not sure you can say or do anything to "educate" him. This is really elementary stuff that as the professional, he should know. Now, is there a good reason why he cannot or has not fixed the problem by now? I don't know. It would be worth having the conversation. Communication is key! :)

I might say something like this "Hey, I was noting these heels are crushed under the foot. Do you know why this is happening, or what we can do to fix it? Is there anything I can be doing to help? The horse is really sore and I'm very worried."

Just see what he says.

Sometimes factors like a wet environment or high sugar diet can cause mild laminitis that makes it difficult for the horse to grow and maintain correct, healthy hoof structure. It would be worth evaluating ALL aspects of the horse's life.

This picture is from my Appendix mare. I don't have a solar photo, but you can clearly see from this one how badly the heels are crushed and run under the foot. The mare had over 2" of heel, but the tubules were layed down flat and extending almost to the apex of the frog! :eek: And she was one lame puppy, let me tell ya!

Prior to my getting her, she'd been under the care of a farrier for a couple of years who could never fix the crushed heels and nasty flares. I got her, started with a new farrier, and after a year, he hadn't fixed anything either. It was just a mess, all the way around. The only way I could do distance riding on her was in 4 shoes. He would cut her really short to cut off as much of the flare as possible, and then shoe her. She went on like this for a while until she went lame, even in the shoes.

I started trimming her myself every 4 weeks or so, and I started "rehab" type work with her also. I walked her on asphalt for 20 minutes a day to "walk the heels back" and also did some work in pads duct taped on to stimulate the entire foot to grow. I needed more growth overall so I'd have something to trim. The pad walking I believe was crucial for success. Remember that YOU have an important role in the health of your horse's feet too. The owner always has the responsibility to provide the proper stimulus, diet, and environment for success. It's not just the farrier's or trimmer's responsibility.

I started noticing marked improvement within a few weeks, and within just a few months she was 100% more sound than she was. And NOW she is a whole different horse! She was laminitic also and that was working against us. Again, it's always about WHOLE HORSE care. Always look higher up the leg than just the fetlock.

After about 3 years of 2 different farriers, and shoes:
http://hphoofcare.com/MFoot3.jpg

And that same foot now:
http://hphoofcare.com/MFoot4.jpg

Notice in the first pic there are no nail holes. This was about 2 trims after pulling the shoes, so a good 8-10 weeks of growth, and the holes were trimmed off.

[JB]

Thanks for the replies guys.

So the consensus is overall, it's not the height of the heel, it's where it is positioned in relation to the other components of his foot? (ie, heel is being crushed because it's too far forward)

That definitely makes sense, and would explain his stifle problems through inhibiting his movement and leaving him sore after every trim.
Yes :) Think of how your foot would feel if the heel of your shoe was under your arch instead of under your heel. I know it's not anatomically the same thing, but the end result is very similar.

Without sounding condescending or "I could do a better job!" to my farrier(s), what do I do now? What do I tell them? Get this heel back by......?
This is where it gets tough. You have to learn enough about what an ideal foot should look like, how these feet vary from that, and whether the variance is acceptable or not - and why. Not every foot is going to be textbook for a variety of reasons. But until you are comfortable enough in why these feet are not healthy, you can't really have a good conversation with your farrier.

Some folks have broached this by saying something like "I've taken an interest in hoof care and have been reading. I've seen several places where feet look like this, and the author has said the heels are too far forward and need to be trimmed, even though they already look low. Can you explain what that really means?"

The answer to that, and if he answers at all, should give you some inkling as to whether he even understands the problem.

IMHO, the fact that these heels are SO far underrun means this has been ongoing, and this means the farrier doesn't recognize it (or doesn't care).

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

This is where it gets tough. You have to learn enough about what an ideal foot should look like, how these feet vary from that, and whether the variance is acceptable or not - and why. Not every foot is going to be textbook for a variety of reasons. But until you are comfortable enough in why these feet are not healthy, you can't really have a good conversation with your farrier.

This is so, so crucial, and worth repeating.

Know what a healthy hoof looks like. Read as much as you can. See if you can hook up with a trimmer and look at some cadaver legs.

Unfortunately, simply because one is a "professional" (including farriers and barefoot trimmers) does NOT mean they know what they're doing, or are doing it well. I've seen some gnarly work from AANHCP people, and it's disappointing because then their clients get frustrated by the lack of progress in their horses, and switch back to shoes.

Study the hoof as much as you can. Read, ask questions, and post pictures.

[JB]

;2999260']I've seen some gnarly work from AANHCP people, and it's disappointing because then their clients get frustrated by the lack of progress in their horses, and switch back to shoes.

This is exactly what I meant earlier about ignorance of hoof health being a major determining factor in so many people going back to shoes and claiming barefoot doesn't work for their horse :(

[Auventera Two]

This is exactly what I meant earlier about ignorance of hoof health being a major determining factor in so many people going back to shoes and claiming barefoot doesn't work for their horse :(

Third that. There's so much more to it than just pulling the shoes and seeing if he "makes it."

[AZ Native]

This is exactly what I meant earlier about ignorance of hoof health being a major determining factor in so many people going back to shoes and claiming barefoot doesn't work for their horse :(

Yep. Have a friend who tried bf once, a poor practioner hurt her horse, and now she's done. I can ride my horse with her and her horse, in the Rockies, over challenging terrain, at speed, w/o boots, and she'll admire my horses feet after the ride, remarkng on how great they look, no chips, etc., and still thinks it can't work for her horses. It always amazes me that people will fire their farrier and never consider NOT hiring another one, but one bad experience with a bf trimmer and that's it, it doesn't work, that's it.

[caballus]

Ummmmmmm, whew!!! Another collection of "you are", "he is", etc. etc. Haven't read through all 18 pages but the little I have looked at don't tell me anything about keeping the TOES back? In a LT/LH hoof the TOES have to be adequately addressed in order to help the heels remediate. It's all well and good to bring the heels BACK (vs. "down" which is totally counterproductive in long, crushed heels, obviously) but the TOES have to come BACK, as well. Depending upon the severity of the condition in the individual hoof this condition means a long rehab ... months and maybe even a full hoof growth cycle. When I encounter this situation I will deal with just getting the toes back as much as possible without laming the horse and then encourage the owner to walk the horse DAILY on an asphalt surface for at LEAST 10 MINS. ... this will help the remediation process go alot more quickly. Forgive me if I'm just reinterating what someone else wrote. Had a hard time getting through all the barbs going through cyberspace!

[asbjockey]

Thanks for the replies guys.

So the consensus is overall, it's not the height of the heel, it's where it is positioned in relation to the other components of his foot? (ie, heel is being crushed because it's too far forward)

That definitely makes sense, and would explain his stifle problems through inhibiting his movement and leaving him sore after every trim.

Without sounding condescending or "I could do a better job!" to my farrier(s), what do I do now? What do I tell them? Get this heel back by......?

I think there are a few yahoo groups that you can join for info. You will probably need to post more detailed hoof pics, but there may be some people there that can help you with an overall idea of what needs to be done.

[kbbarn]

I admit - did not read all 12 pages. So sorry if this has been brought up. I have an OTTB. Lame with shoes. Went barefoot 2years ago - first year, not much improvement with my self taught trimming and a self proclaimed barefoot trimmer. My barefoot advocate Vet came out to do yearly Dental work and went after his feet too. She said put easy boots on him daily with pads while he is transitioning. I took basic easy boots and chopped off the back so that there would be absolutly no heal rubbing. Every day, take boot off, wipe out, clean feet, put boots back on. He did much better with the modified boots and the correct trim. So now I knew what to look for. I found a certified barefoot practitioner in Feb 07 that trimmed him every 5 weeks. Now he is sound and barefoot.

I do agree that TBs can be a pain to get barefoot due to the fact that most OTTBs had shoes slapped on them when there are just 1 year old. bad for hooves and developing baby in my opinion. So have patience once you know that your hooves are being trimmed correctly.

My guy occasionally gets ouchy if it rains/snows a lot and he stands in soggy ground ( sole softens) so I have used Durasole on him. Much better. I was told about a new product which I ordered today - Hoof Armor. It is supposed to be used to do the transition from shoes to barefoot.

http://www.hoofarmor.net/

[grayarabs]

WW - I looked at the photos yesterday. I think the hinds look worse than the fronts.
Perhaps bad photos - but heels look high and toes short. Fronts - yes toes and heels need to be taken back. If I remember correctly - the hairline of fronts is almost ground parallel. Not good - you want a slope down from front to back. Your heels are low - I think the toes are as well - ie no toe height - ie measure from ground to highest hairline - ie front of hoof. (This was confusing to me at first - trying to make simple - perhaps I am not explaining this well).
Note there is a difference in toe length and toe height. Toes grow forward - you trim them back. The barefoot trim you trim nothing underneath the toe - certainly no sole - and leave toe height - protecting the coffin bone. (for starters and simply stated).
Heels that grow forward need to be taken back. You can do this by rasping the heels and finding "the sweet spot" where the heels should be. Hard to understand - will try to find photos to explain. You need to move where he makes ground contact heel area - further back. Ugg - need photos to explain. So - are you giving your horse down time for now?
Obviously if in pain - yes - but what are your plans? (And I hope he is doing better pain-wise - seems like I read that he is - great). So here is the deal - you have to deal with the heels - this much better done barefoot. Why? Because you can work on the hooves as often as need be. Those heels will be growing forward daily. With shoes on - 4 to 6 weeks - at the end of that time you have taken one step forward and two back - you cannot get ahead of the game/growing. Ideally you - or someone - should rasp on the heels at least every two weeks - or weekly - but less. That is how to get those heels where they belong. Hopefully that will solve many of the problems - and if you decide to compete - you have the choice - stay barefoot - or put on shoes. At least the heels/toes are back where they should be. ANy other down time - take him barefoot - and keep after the heels. When retired - why have shoes on (he kept pulling them anyway, yes?). Then keep after the heels. Again - I note you are in Canada - where there are two excellent trimmers: www.equinextion.com
I urge you to go to that website - lots of photos - case studies - befores and afters - folks sending in photos for critique/help - you will see what I (and others) are talking about.
Years of 6 week shoeing cycles have let those heels grow forward/crush - a few months of barefoot would help tremendously. And yes - A2 - I do the "tarmac promenade" - works wonders. Walking on asphalt (bare) really works wonders on the hooves.
WW - I will try to post photos links. Good luck and keep informing. Did you go to vet?

[Auventera Two]

The barefoot trim you trim nothing underneath the toe - certainly no sole - and leave toe height - protecting the coffin bone. (for starters and simply stated).

God knows I don't want to start anything else........... but

This is not a true statement. At least how I understood you to say it. LOL

Okay - maybe because I don't do a "wild horse or natural trim" but - you most certainly DO take toe height down if necessary to get the toe on plane with the heel!

The leading border of the pedal bone does NOT extend all the way to the end of the foot. You can almost always clearly see the line where the bone is. When you take toe height down, you are almost always taking it down distal to the bone (in front of it.)

I'm sorry but this concept that you never touch the toe is so wrong, and so misleading, and one reason that so many farriers "hate barefooters." It's all this "toe callous" talk that leads to false sole and negative plane P3.

If you keep trimming the heels and never touch the toe from the solar surface of the foot, you're going to have BIG PROBLEMS. And I know that first hand because I started out reading all these barefoot sites saying "don't touch the toe." So I didn't touch the toe. I got severely broken back angles and a sh*t load of false sole around the apex, and I kept chasing the bars, chasing the bars, chasing the bars....

When you start tearing hoof capsules open, and removing soles, you can SEE just how much sole builds up at the toe on unbalanced feet. Toe callous is not necessarily a good thing. Lookout said that first here on this forum and I didn't believe her then. But you can be sure that I do now. A tough, hard sole with appropriate concavity is a good thing.

When you get the planes in balance, the foot wears better, and you find that you aren't having to trim the toe height nearly as much. The more imbalance you have, the more horn you're having to take to bring the foot back into balance. But get the foot in balance, and the trimming is MINIMAL on ALL planes.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to go bezerk, and really, you might not have even meant what I thought you meant grayarabs :D. But I just wanted to clarify what I think a lot of people are misunderstanding.

[grayarabs]

A2 - Note that I said "for starters and simply stated". I also understand and agree with some of what you say. I won't say I use the "wild horse' trimming style, either.
I will say that for folks new to the idea of "the barefoot trim" - there is a big difference in trimming the toes - the farrier trim that is in many cases the same trim applied before shoes put on (ie nipping off a lot of sole with the toe/wall leaving the horse very sore - not that all farriers do that - some do - but I see it too often) (which is what I suspect happened to OP's horse) as opposed to playing it safe - if in doubt - leave the underneath front half of hoof alone. For the OP's horse in question - TB? - years of shoes - probable thin sole - I would not touch the sole under the toe. Unless - x-rays confirm negative coffin plane etc - which in this case I seem to doubt that is the case. Still another somewhat difficult concept is backing up the heels without necessarily lowering the heels. Anyway - at this point we don't know what is going on with OP's horse - x-rays? Suffice to say that were I to attempt to trim her horse at this point I would leave the sole alone and monitor how the horse does - and hooves react/change. The past trimming/shoeing of her horse apparently has not been helpful - and something different needs to be done. We all agree heels need to be taken back - for starters. Hope to get update from OP soon!!!

[jack mac]

God knows I don't want to start anything else........... but

This is not a true statement. At least how I understood you to say it. LOL

Okay - maybe because I don't do a "wild horse or natural trim" but - you most certainly DO take toe height down if necessary to get the toe on plane with the heel!

The leading border of the pedal bone does NOT extend all the way to the end of the foot. You can almost always clearly see the line where the bone is. When you take toe height down, you are almost always taking it down distal to the bone (in front of it.)

I'm sorry but this concept that you never touch the toe is so wrong, and so misleading, and one reason that so many farriers "hate barefooters." It's all this "toe callous" talk that leads to false sole and negative plane P3.

If you keep trimming the heels and never touch the toe from the solar surface of the foot, you're going to have BIG PROBLEMS. And I know that first hand because I started out reading all these barefoot sites saying "don't touch the toe." So I didn't touch the toe. I got severely broken back angles and a sh*t load of false sole around the apex, and I kept chasing the bars, chasing the bars, chasing the bars....

When you start tearing hoof capsules open, and removing soles, you can SEE just how much sole builds up at the toe on unbalanced feet. Toe callous is not necessarily a good thing. Lookout said that first here on this forum and I didn't believe her then. But you can be sure that I do now. A tough, hard sole with appropriate concavity is a good thing.

When you get the planes in balance, the foot wears better, and you find that you aren't having to trim the toe height nearly as much. The more imbalance you have, the more horn you're having to take to bring the foot back into balance. But get the foot in balance, and the trimming is MINIMAL on ALL planes.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to go bezerk, and really, you might not have even meant what I thought you meant grayarabs :D. But I just wanted to clarify what I think a lot of people are misunderstanding. Well Vickie my dear sweet girl i must say I'm in love with you again :winkgrin: you have redeemed your self ;) our shaky romance can blossom again 100% that means jack gives you a Gold Star, will you be my valentine :)

[JHUshoer20]

and one reason that so many farriers "hate barefooters." It's all this "toe callous" talk

YES!!!:yes: Precisely!

Jack,
Give her 2 gold stars for this one. Matter of fact if you like I'll give you a website to wire her some flowers for V-Day!

That's the best thing I've ever seen you write Vickey. See that Jack has been a good influence on you after all!:lol:

Now hopefully you and the rest of them will begin to immediately purge your vocabularies of that word:yes:
George

[grayarabs]

I don't think I even wrote "toe callous". What is the problem with "toe callous" anyway? I don't understand why this gets folks blood up. Is it just the term?
Simply asked: for a barefoot horse - great hooves - sound - I guess or otherwise -
why cut into the sole? If the sole is hard - must use knives or nippers to remove - potential for leaving horses lame - why do it? Vickie has mentioned neg coffin bone etc - but I think the vast majority of horses - leave the sole alone - and you are fine.
What am I not getting? Please give me reasons for cutting into the sole.

[JHUshoer20]

I don't think I even wrote "toe callous". What is the problem with "toe callous" anyway? I don't understand why this gets folks blood up. Is it just the term? It's a made up term and a BUA/Natural BS buzzword. There is no such structure.

Simply asked: for a barefoot horse - great hooves - sound - I guess or otherwise -
why cut into the sole?Live sole no, dead sole yes. Remove only that which is naturally exfoliating.

What am I not getting? Please give me reasons for cutting into the sole.
There can be but not without good reason.
George

[grayarabs]

Had some time to think - and want to explain why I have my opinion on the sole.
For years the gals I rode dressage and trails etc with - most their horses were barefoot - mine were shod. I remember them having to plan lessons, clinics, shows and trailrides around getting their horses trimmed. Why? Because their horses were ouchy days after being trimmed. I was mystified by this - I did not have that problem - never missed a day of riding - my horses were shod. Every time their horses were trimmed - they had to have days off - that was just how it was. So - within days horses ok to ride. So I have to wonder - what about that trim caused them to be sore - and then fine days later.
I can only think it was sole being cut into - it grew back in days - good to go.
I did not give it much thought back then - did not really concern me - I knew virtually nothing about hooves. But looking back - what else could it have been that caused the soreness? Perhaps the horses had calloused - or toughened sole - it was removed - horses sore. Flash forward to now: Farrier at barn - we can always tell when he has been there - have to walk right by his clippings. You can tell each hoof he did - one big clip per hoof - large amount of sole attached to the walls. Half the horses lame for days.
No one says anything - it is seemingly expected. Just wait a few days - then ride.
I have stated - one TB lame for weeks - friend and I took over his trimming - left sole alone - and viola - he never missed a day. So I can only put two and two together - and say that "back in the day" those horses were sore because sole pared/nipped away - like the horses I see now. Is this something peculiar to many farriers in Texas?
The barefooters at my barn just wonder - has it not dawned on folks that the sole being removed is causing the problem - so why continue to do it? Vickie - I have not studied your method of trimming - I have studied equinextion, ironfree, and pete. I don't think any of those three recommend trimming sole. (especially on routine basis - I am sure there are exceptions - where one must run a rasp over a few areas). So Vickie - and farriers - do you routinely remove sole? Every horse? Every trim?

[Petstorejunkie]

I dont remove sole, or toe callus. I am no where near as experienced as the rest of the barefoot brigade as i only do my own horse, and he's never needed any taken off.
To me those things are there for a reason, if I am understanding things correctly, when the hoof is in balance it doesnt develop excess of anything, in balance stays in balance with minimal involvement when given the right environment.
i could be totally off base, but that is what makes sense to me.

[JHUshoer20]

Had some time to think - and want to explain why I have my opinion on the sole.
For years the gals I rode dressage and trails etc with - most their horses were barefoot - mine were shod. I remember them having to plan lessons, clinics, shows and trailrides around getting their horses trimmed. Why? Because their horses were ouchy days after being trimmed. I was mystified by this - I did not have that problem - never missed a day of riding - my horses were shod. Every time their horses were trimmed - they had to have days off - that was just how it was. So - within days horses ok to ride. So I have to wonder - what about that trim caused them to be sore - and then fine days later. They were trimmed wrong. Horses should not have been crippled from trimming.

I can only think it was sole being cut into - it grew back in days - good to go.
I did not give it much thought back then - did not really concern me - I knew virtually nothing about hooves. But looking back - what else could it have been that caused the soreness? Sounds like what I'd suspect
Perhaps the horses had calloused - or toughened sole - it was removed - horses sore. Horses had their live sole pared into. Horse owners should have never accepted lameness as a fact of life. Is unacceptable. Flash forward to now: Farrier at barn - we can always tell when he has been there - have to walk right by his clippings. You can tell each hoof he did - one big clip per hoof - large amount of sole attached to the walls. Half the horses lame for days.
No one says anything - it is seemingly expected. Just wait a few days - then ride. Again this is unacceptable.

I have stated - one TB lame for weeks - friend and I took over his trimming - left sole alone - and viola - he never missed a day. Properly done should be no problem So I can only put two and two together - and say that "back in the day" those horses were sore because sole pared/nipped away - like the horses I see now. Is no way to know for sure from words on a computer screen but sounds like a good theory. Is this something peculiar to many farriers in Texas? I'll let Mr Stovall answer that one.:D

The barefooters at my barn just wonder - has it not dawned on folks that the sole being removed is causing the problem - so why continue to do it? Continuing to hire the inept can be construed as poor animal husbandry. do you routinely remove sole? Every horse? Every trim?
Usually just dead sole. Stop at live. Need to have a real good reason to start paring away at it.

Most racehorses are shod the day they run. Is absolutely no excuse whatsoever to have to wait for a horse to come sound after a shoeing or trimming job. If their lame a mistake was made. (Barring any other issues of course)
George

[JB]

Is this something peculiar to many farriers in Texas?

Sadly, no - it is rampant in all parts of the US.

[Tom Stovall]

grayarabs in gray, deletia

I remember them having to plan lessons, clinics, shows and trailrides around getting their horses trimmed. Why? Because their horses were ouchy days after being trimmed. I was mystified by this - I did not have that problem - never missed a day of riding - my horses were shod. Every time their horses were trimmed - they had to have days off - that was just how it was. So - within days horses ok to ride. So I have to wonder - what about that trim caused them to be sore - and then fine days later.

Simple, they were cut too short; too much of the structures that protect sensitive tissues were removed.

I can only think it was sole being cut into - it grew back in days - good to go.
I did not give it much thought back then - did not really concern me - I knew virtually nothing about hooves. But looking back - what else could it have been that caused the soreness?

It's not that the sole was "cut into"; rather, that too much exfoliating sole was removed. The exfoliating sole is not sacred, but it exists for a purpose.

Perhaps the horses had calloused - or toughened sole - it was removed - horses sore.

More likely, too much sole was removed. Not "callused", not "toughened" (unless it'd been treated with something that forms crosslinks with proteins), just plain, ol', ordinary, exfoliating sole.

Flash forward to now: Farrier at barn - we can always tell when he has been there - have to walk right by his clippings. You can tell each hoof he did - one big clip per hoof - large amount of sole attached to the walls. Half the horses lame for days.

Whenever a horse walks off worse than he walks up, somebody did something wrong.

No one says anything - it is seemingly expected. Just wait a few days - then ride.

Why would these scholars pay somebody to cripple their horses on a regular basis? Houston is full of good farriers, there's no need to put up with a hoof butcher.

I have stated - one TB lame for weeks - friend and I took over his trimming - left sole alone - and viola - he never missed a day. So I can only put two and two together - and say that "back in the day" those horses were sore because sole pared/nipped away - like the horses I see now.

As long as none of your horses need shoeing, you can be a hero.

Is this something peculiar to many farriers in Texas?

Ineptitude is not related to satehood.

The barefooters at my barn just wonder - has it not dawned on folks that the sole being removed is causing the problem - so why continue to do it?

Kinda makes me wonder too: Why would these Mensa candidates pay for butchery a second time?

Vickie - I have not studied your method of trimming - I have studied equinextion, ironfree, and pete. I don't think any of those three recommend trimming sole. (especially on routine basis - I am sure there are exceptions - where one must run a rasp over a few areas). So Vickie - and farriers - do you routinely remove sole? Every horse? Every trim?

The removal of exfoliationg sole depends on husbandry, presentation, use, and environment. In other words, "it depends", is the operative credo.

Aside from the butchery advocated by Strasser and her acolytes, there's not much difference between any of the so-called "designer" trims being touted with superlatives by their proponents and the trims farriers have been applying for more than 100 years - it's just marketing hype and some guru trying to sell somebody something they can't eat. Doubts? Dare to compare: All of 'em feature a short phalangeal lever, exfoliating sole left pretty much alone, heels trimmed to the widest point of the frog, frog neatened up a bit, and the edges radiused a good bit. As I see it, the primary difference between an ordinary farrier's trim and most designer trims is that some guru realized that rasp control would be beyond the ability of most wannabes, so he declared gutted quarters to be kosher; other than that, there's no appreciable difference between any of "new" guru trims and those described in print more than 100 years ago by Dollar and Lungwitz. :)

[Auventera Two]

Well Vickie my dear sweet girl i must say I'm in love with you again :winkgrin: you have redeemed your self ;) our shaky romance can blossom again 100% that means jack gives you a Gold Star, will you be my valentine :)

Awww! That's wonderful! :D :lol: Of course I'll be your valentine. But I require chocolate and flowers.



(or a couple new rasps would work too........) :winkgrin:

[Auventera Two]

Simply asked: for a barefoot horse - great hooves - sound - I guess or otherwise -
why cut into the sole? If the sole is hard - must use knives or nippers to remove - potential for leaving horses lame - why do it? Vickie has mentioned neg coffin bone etc - but I think the vast majority of horses - leave the sole alone - and you are fine.
What am I not getting? Please give me reasons for cutting into the sole.

Well - it was taught to me this way, and I can't think of a better way to put it:

You never remove structure that's compensating for a lack of structure elsewhere, unless it is preventing you from putting the foot into biomechanical and neuorological balance.

In other words - why would you leave a built up toe callouse when it is preventing your toe from coming on plane with your heel, which is on plane with your live sole? :confused:

It's all about planes and balance. The foot MUST be balanced. That is not negotiable. But the question is - "what is balance" anyway? I suppose people define balance in different ways, but all good farriers and trimmers know that balance is a state of equillibrium where the foot functions properly with all phalanges aligned and with no undue stress placed upon the limb.

I personally achieve balance by centering the frog on the median line of the foot, finding the live sole plane just forward of the heel purchase, bringing the heels on plane with it, relieving the outer wall, bringing the toe length back to what is appropriate, and finally bringing the toe height down on plane with the heel plane. I then address flare and touch up my bevel, then run a sanding block over the foot for the final touch. I don't even use the word "mustang roll" because it's misleading. Domestic horses aren't wild mustangs, and feet doesn't necessarily need a "mustang roll." It does need a 45 degree bevel to relieve the outer wall and provide purchase on the inner layers of hoof wall.

So - while doing all this - if I were to not touch the "toe callous" I would be ignoring my planes and the foot would not be in biomechanical and neurological balance.

Quite frankly, I feel sick to look at a few of the barefoot sites and the terrifying trim jobs posted as examples. It's all about ignoring this "toe callous" and mustang rolling the hell out of the foot until you have a snub nosed capsule with a high toe plane and broken back axis. Perhaps this works for horses. I won't say that it doesn't. But I am anal retentive about planes, proper balance, and overall appearance of the finished product.

Honestly? I want a foot beautiful enough it looks like you could nail a shoe on it. ;) But that foot will still function shoeless without a thinned sole, or a sore horse.

Here's where I think people get into trouble - They don't understand the concept of pressure, stimulus and subsequent growth. Increased stimulus equals increased growth. Note, I didn't say incrased "wear." I believe you can literally wear the hoof away faster than you can grow it. Increased STIMULUS increases the growth. This is why you don't leave flare, or high toe callouses! You "think" that if you file down the flare, or the high toe callous, that you now have a very thin wall or sole. In a lot of cases that's not true because you had an abnormal amount of material there to begin with.

Obviously with everything - it depends - is true here too. I only remove flare from the bottom 1/3 of the capsule, and I realize that in some extreme cases you cannot remove all flare in one trim because you would abnormally thin the wall. But I think people don't trim enough because they're afraid because they don't understand anatomy.

I'm not a radical trimmer and I don't abnormally thin anything. I don't pare sole, and I always assess sole depth at the frog's apex before I trim anything. If I have any doubt, I use my hoof testers. But I "will" take toe height down to bring balance to the foot.

And sometimes you CAN'T trim the toe down because the sole is so thin. I had this situation once on a shod horse the woman wants to use for trail riding. The feet were in horrible condition - soda cans comes to mind. I took the shoes off and didn't touch the bottom of the foot. Beveled the walls, gave the owner a set of pads and said "Walk him 20 minutes a day. I'll be back in 4 weeks." I went back in 4 weeks and there was tons of foot to trim. Stimulus DOES equal growth.

[Auventera Two]

grayarabs -

I know what your'e saying about planning your activities around trimming. I used to do the same thing. I knew there would be no riding for 1-2 weeks after a trim. But seriously - GOOD farriers won't rape the foot in such a manner. GOOD farriers know how to bring balance and function without making the horse sore. The problem is that these GOOD farriers seem to be few and far between. As with any of us that choose to work on feet - there is good and bad.

When I started trimming myself, that was actually my #1 complaint: "My horse is so sore for 2 weeks after a trim. I can't stand it anymore!"

I apprenticed with a farrier for quite a while and I saw the transition in him. He went from soring my mare after every trim to doing trims that were comfortable for the horses. He said he'd changed his trim style a little because he's getting better results now. Well, good for him! I can't fault him. He recognized a problem, and fixed it. That's the sign of a professional.

All the farrier vs. barefooter stuff is really tiresome. I think that real professionals from either side of the fence, can work together and can recognize good work and bad work. I'm really tired of the holier than thou attitudes from both sides. Everybody thinks they have the magic ticket to the throne of jesus. The answer is somewhere in the middle and rarely comes from either radical side.

[grayarabpony]

WW Queen, the best advice I can give you is to try to find a really good farrier who can help you with your horse and teach you how to trim his feet when a good farrier isn't available. Trailer to him or even go to a vet school if possible -- it will worth the trouble in the end. Under run heels are such a common problem and are very hard on the horse. My big horse had a similar problem, so I feel you and your horse's pain.

[JHUshoer20]

grayarabs -
All the farrier vs. barefooter stuff is really tiresome. I think that real professionals from either side of the fence, can work together and can recognize good work and bad work. I'm really tired of the holier than thou attitudes from both sides. Everybody thinks they have the magic ticket to the throne of jesus. The answer is somewhere in the middle and rarely comes from either radical side.
Agreed.

Best way to heal the rift is to allow honesty to triumph over BS. Everyone purging their vocabularies of such words as "callouses" "proprioceptors" "mustang rolls" "pasture trims" etc etc etc would go a very long way toward making peace.;)
George

[Rick Burten]

Best way to heal the rift is to allow honesty to triumph over BS. Everyone purging their vocabularies of such words as "callouses" "proprioceptors" "mustang rolls" "pasture trims" etc etc etc would go
a very long way toward making peace.;)
George
Why would that be the case? I'm a farrier, I use those words(well, at least some of them) and have a quite peaceful relationship with other professionals and non-professionals who are barefoot trimmers and/or farriers. OTOH, there are those from either camp with whom I take exception.

[WW_Queen]

WW Queen, the best advice I can give you is to try to find a really good farrier who can help you with your horse and teach you how to trim his feet when a good farrier isn't available. Trailer to him or even go to a vet school if possible -- it will worth the trouble in the end. Under run heels are such a common problem and are very hard on the horse. My big horse had a similar problem, so I feel you and your horse's pain.

I would love the knowledge (lots of which I have picked up here!) to be able to point out more things, besides the heel/toe debate. I have seen crushed heels before, so I can't believe it didn't stick out as obvious to me.

I am going to bring out the big guns I think, and take him to the diagnostics clinic (best in the area, esp. for lameness issues). Their head honcho apparently works very, very closely with my sporthorse farrier (they recommended him in the first place). Apparently they will take more images to ensure there isn't something more troublesome going on.

One of the vets at my regular clinic came out to the barn yesterday, and confirmed there was definitely bruising in his most affected feet. He mentioned there was something else he wanted to talk to me about, however did not mention what it was in any of his messages. I have trying to get a hold of him all day, no luck yet. I am on pins and needles, terrified it is something serious.

I also called sporthorse farrier, and had to leave a message, explaining what happened while he was on vacation. I said the vets have taken over his feet for now, but perhaps in 2-3 weeks once he is stabilized, we can talk and try to figure out some of these issues. Although I appreciate that "regular" vet (who does have decades of experience) was trying to help by recommending QH guy, QH seems not to be the right fit for my poor horse.

Apparently, despite everything, he did walk out much better yesterday.

What can I do to help the bruising?

Should I let him be turned out even on the hard ground? (It has been snowing tons here, however some days it melts, then freezes, or the ground gets soft and somewhat torn up which freezes.....)

I will update you guys once I get a hold of the vet.....I can't stand waiting like this!

[grayarabpony]

My suggestion -- put boots on him and turn him out until the vet and farrier can get him straight. I like the boots that come up over the bulbs of the heel -- they stay on more reliably and dirt doesn't get in -- if BM is willing to take them on and off. The boots need to come off for part of the day or the horse could end up with bad rubs. Movement will increase blood flow to the foot and aid in healing.

[MyReality]

I would definitely put boots on. Turn him out, but he tends to play very hard, you will have to cut grain and limit the turnout, and no run in. Soak feet and paint stuff on to harden his foot, or poultice. I would not put shoes on him for now... it mask the problem and make it inconvenient to treat the foot.

There are 2 types of horse trim: one that make horses sound, one that doesn't. If it's my horse, and he got lame after a trim, I would definitely think the farrier is incompetent. My farrier, when I gave him my new horse, he went very conservative and took out only a little bit, he told me that's because he doesn't know this horse and how she grows feet.

[Appassionato]

Sounds like a plan, WW_Queen! Be sure to let us know what's found and how it goes!

As far as turnout, I wouldn't. Normally I say let the horse out, but if there is a possibility of him further bruising himself up on hard rutted ground then I would say to leave him in a very fluffy and soft stall. He's going to be angry, but he'll have to pout in the stall instead of further damage his hooves.