Sole-Guard... New product from the Equithane people for barefoot horses?

[Lauren!]

http://www.vettec.com/65/products/soleguard.html

I just found about this today... apparently it's a new product being marketed for horses transitioning to barefoot, or to provide protection while still allowing the foot to flex. It looks interesting... possibly a useful alternative to boots for some horses? Or for owners who don't care for boots? Or a legal alternative when boots are not allowed (dressage, hunters)? Cost is about $30/tube, which is supposed to do 4 feet. The product is meant to last about 3 weeks in the hoof.

I'm curious to see what trimmers and other owners of barefoot horses will think about this... it certainly seems like something that could prove useful to me, and it looks easy to apply...

[Goober]

Unique idea if it works!:D

[Daydream Believer]

Interesting. I wonder if it works on a flat footed horse with little cupping that is most likely to need protection? I just have a hard time imagining it staying in place but I'd give it a try at least once.

[Sabovee]

Looks interesting... definitely a better alternative than boots for me (multiple horses, different hoof sizes).

I'm interested to see if anyone has used this with any success! :)

[Lauren!]

Unique idea if it works!:D
I agree!

I can't wait to here what more experienced barefoot people than myself think... I tried Hoof Armor, and wasn't in love with it. I was able to apply it, it did stay on the hoof, but it didn't make a big difference in the horse's comfort and I got it all over myself. Only hoof boots and time helped him. He's doing great now, but I know we'll encounter rocks, rough footing, gravel in between rings and other things come spring (the footing at home is relatively soft and forgiving, and these things can be an issue), so I'm always keeping my eyes open for things that might help... maybe this will be it :cool:

Interesting. I wonder if it works on a flat footed horse with little cupping that is most likely to need protection? I just have a hard time imagining it staying in place but I'd give it a try at least once.

It's probably worth a try! I would imagine it might even support the horse developing its own concavity by providing some support and sole contact... I know my horse's feet changed drastically (in a good way) from being out in the mud last fall... maybe this would be similar? I'd imagine it can't hurt.

[birdsong]

This is the same principle as the "black pour" used when my horse had dangerously thin soles...The farrier trimmed a piece of plastic type mesh and placed it over the foot...then had him step down on construction styrofoam which indented to fit leaving a nice concave area..he trimmed it and taped it all down nicely with duck tape leaving the very back open. Then he injected the pour material in...waited a minute, pulled off the styrofoam and Coal had perfectly smooth pads adhered to his foot.

Hmmm this was done with shoes on though. But we had NO foot problems at all with them when he was lame before.

I would certainly give this a try if I needed it...wonder how well it would stay in though.

[Appassionato]

Honestly, I can't help but to think it's the same product as the Silpak, Equipak, and Equipak CS. Maybe there's a difference in the firmness???


Interesting. I wonder if it works on a flat footed horse with little cupping that is most likely to need protection? I just have a hard time imagining it staying in place but I'd give it a try at least once.

As far as how long can a hoof hold it in, Bo's Equipak CS has stayed in anywhere from 5 to 8 weeks. Yes, Bo had shoes on, sometimes with the mesh and sometimes not. No joke, if you rip that stuff out before it's time to...sole material comes with it. I'm sure it's probably easier to remove without shoes than with shoes, but it does stick to hooves. Make sure before trying it that the hooves are dry. Use a hair dryer on the hoof if you have to.

As far as a flat-footed horse, I'd guess that it either won't work or it won't be as effective as a hoof that has more elevation like with a shoe. When Bo decided for us that he was going to try barefoot, we actually tried putting the Equipak CS in on a bare hoof, but all it did was squish completely out for the exception of either side of the frogs. Bo's Bo's hooves were excessively flat. A more normal yet flat-footed horse will have some Equipak/Sole-Guard covering the sole, but I wonder if it would be enough to help create more concavity? It doesn't make sense that it would, but I could also be very wrong.

[CookiePony]

Cool. Maybe someone should email the company and ask what the difference is. Maybe it is stickier? Sets up faster?

I think I will try it during the summer doldrums when the ground is hard and my guy's feet lose some of their concavity.

[Lookout]

Trimmer friends and I have been discussing this product but due to newness no one has any experience to report. Someone did contact Vet-tec and according to them it is an inert urethane. The difference between it and the other products mentioned is that it adheres to the foot with no shoe holding it in.

[Lauren!]

Lookout, did you think it was promising or potentially useful?

To me, the relative layperson, the difference seems to be that Sole-Guard sticks to a bare hoof, whereas they recommend mesh AND a shoe be used with EquiPak (leading me to believe EquiPak wouldn't hold at all without a shoe). SilPak doesn't stick to the hoof at all (I researched all these products when friends were discussing gluing on boots with pour in pad material ;)). This one also sets up faster (30 vs 45 seconds) and I'd imagine its a bit of a different consistency. They DO recommend warming/drying the hoof with a heat gun, that's probably pretty important in getting it to stick.

[Equine Obsession]

This sounds like a really interesting product. Apparently it's supposed to remain in the hoof for a couple of weeks, falling out as the sole exfoliates.

OH man. The price is right! This sounds perfect for my horse. His thin soles dislike the rocky terrain very much.

Has anyone dealt with the company before? Are they reliable? I really want to try this out. Thanks for the tip Lauren. It seems like an obvious thing but I didn't consider that before.

As with all new products I'm sure there will be kinks to work out. If this could be an alternative to spending 100+ on shoes every month I'll be a very happy person. (Plus, no more stone bruises.)

[Lauren!]

Has anyone dealt with the company before? Are they reliable? I really want to try this out.

It's the company that makes EquiPak (which I believe used to be and/or is also called Equithane) and they've been around for a long time. I can't remember a time without Equithane, so that's probably at least 15 years. You do need an applicator gun (like a caulking gun, but specific to their product, you have to buy theirs for about $50) for the 180cc size and mixing tips for either size. The 20cc size doesn't need the applicator gun, but you probably need more than one syringe to fill a hoof, so it's a trade off.

Have you tried boots and pads? I have and they worked great... I am just always looking for new ideas, especially because boots aren't the easiest (and are sometimes not legal) for showing.

[Appassionato]

I think I will try it during the summer doldrums when the ground is hard and my guy's feet lose some of their concavity.

It helped with Bo's concavity! Of all the products Jaye has used, Bo likes Equipak the best. It's a very firm product when set up.

I believe it was Tom Stovall that mentioned another way to get similar results by mixing regular silicone and iodine. It's messy but it's cheaper. That might be a possibility for some of you.

the only concerns I have about the product is for anyone's horse that might have some undetected soreness such as P.O. Bo for example, if his Equipak is filled so that the Equipak is weight-bearing when not fully loaded, when he finally fully loads the hoof the Equipak is going to hurt like crazy. His Equipak is put in to just above the ground. Just some thoughts. :winkgrin:

[CristyC]

We have an older mare (30) with the Sole-Guard in her feet now. It's been a week in heavy sticky mud and it's still in there. The extreme edges of it have flaked off a little bit. It does not go past her walls. But it covers most of the sole and completely covers her frog. It is the consistency of soft rubber once it's set. It's VERY VERY flexible. You have to work FAST cause it sets really fast. You have to apply it to a VERY CLEAN, VERY DRY hoof. We cleaned it with water then a splash of acetone and dried the hoof with a hair dryer. (which also warms up the hoof a bit for a better bond). Only issue was that she was getting a little tired of holding her foot up for all that in one swoop. But it took less time than a shoe all in all.

This mare has cushings disease, and is on thyroid meds to boot and her coffin bones had just started to rotate with regular shoes (we fired that farrier cause he kept trimming her longer and longer to cover her discomfort instead of telling us so we could act.) Under the care of our vet and new farrier who put her in clogs which were hard to get and keep on but gave her great comfort. They decided to try this stuff on her to see how she liked it.

She is very very happy with the sole-guard. Shows no sign of ouchiness and is a pretty darned chipper ancient lady (even if her teeth are falling out at the rate of one a year). Our goal is to just keep her happy until she goes and the Sole Guard seems to be a part of the plan for her now. She gives it a big '2 Hooves Up'!

[Sobriska]

Does anyone know if this company is interested in working with trimmers/farriers to really field test the product?
A lot of this stuff is SO expensive. I don't want to be the guinea pig. At about $30 for all 4 feet, plus the mixing gun, I am at $80 to give this stuff a test drive.
IMO, the company would do better if they would offer a greatly reduced price. At least on first time orders. Perhaps an agreement to do survey and documentation?
I see too many products that claim to be the greatest thing. I would be broke if I field tested all of them.
If a company believes in their product, what would it hurt to get some out there at a low cost? If they do that, and it works well, you can believe word will spread. Ultimately, they will make a LOT more $ in the long run.

[Lookout]

I know someone that wrote to them with a question on the composition of the product and got an immediate reply. Why don't you try writing to them?

[Auventera Two]

I'm willing to give it a try. It's only $30 from Centaur, where I order all my other stuff from.

I have 3 horses I could use it on, just for testing it out.

Edited to add:

Cristi, is there a dispenser gun you order also if you get the large quantity?

[Simkie]

Yes, you need the gun. It's on this page, under "Accessories": http://www.vettec.com/65/products/index.htm

[Lauren!]

Yes, you need the applicator gun and mixing tips to use the 180cc cartridges. It's the same one the other Vettec products use, so if you use a hoofcare professional who uses/has used their other products (and most shoeing farriers that I know do or have) they probably already have it. You don't need an applicator for the 20cc size, but I don't know that would be enough to fill the average hoof either. I think an 60cc/no applicator size would be ideal... but Vettec seems to be marketing to professionals, not horse owners, and I guess most professionals have or don't mind aquiring the extra "stuff" needed.

I plan on trying the stuff come spring (I haven't been riding lately, too cold and wet... we have 6+ inches of snow today!) and I'll post when I do. I already aquired an applicator gun, so I just have to get a cartridge of SoleGuard and I should be all set to make a mess and test this stuff out :lol:

[matryoshka]

Interesting. I wonder if it works on a flat footed horse with little cupping that is most likely to need protection? I just have a hard time imagining it staying in place but I'd give it a try at least once.
I was wondering about flat footed horses, too. I don't think this would help my flat footed boy. Also, I'd worry about it causing too much sole pressure.

I'm going to try out that stuff that KC la Pierre is promoting. He's promoting it for hoof healing, but I'd like to see if it will hold up to about 25 miles on the trail. That protects the wall, not just the sole. My horse is soft footed. My understanding is that you can get the stuff cheaper than what KC sells it for, but I'd want to get his package to learn from before trying a more do-it-yourself approach.

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

I think I'm the only one that isn't psyched about this.

This stuff lasts for three (maybe more?) weeks? Most horses do best with small trims every two weeks or so. This stuff would not only prevent you from trimming, but would prevent natural wear of the sole to exfoliate shedding material.

I also would question if this material allowed the hoof to function as it normally would. Does it hinder expansion? Horses do build up dirt in their hooves, but it sheds on its own. I don't think it's to the benefit of the hoof to have something like that packed into the bottom of the hoof 24/7 for weeks at a time.

I also wonder if this would prevent natural traction of the hoof. If you have a solid surface on the bottom, it doesn't seem like the back of the hoof is able to do its job effectively.

Doesn't seem like it would allow the frog to "breathe".

I, personally, am not excited to pour who-knows-what chemicals on my horse's hooves.

I don't know. Trimming correctly by focusing on the back of the hooves, providing movement (preferably constant, through 24/7 turnout), and a low sugar diet (preferably no grain, only forage) is the best way to go. Keeping it simple by providing a lifestyle as natural as possible seems to yield the best results.

[justdream2ride]

I saw this done on RFDTV the other night after reading this thread. The way they applied it was as if it was a shoe - did not cover the entire sole or the frog. Applied and allowed to dry then rasped it level.

[flyracing]

I saw this done on RFDTV the other night after reading this thread. The way they applied it was as if it was a shoe - did not cover the entire sole or the frog. Applied and allowed to dry then rasped it level.

That sounds like an interesting way to do it. I would think it wouldn't last very long though, but since I haven't tried it obviously I wouldn't know!

I most excited for this product if it works for short term uses. Put it in at a show with hard footing for the weekend, put it in for extra padding before putting the horse in the trailer for a coast to coast trip, put in in for show requiring walking on gravel and sharp rocks.

Re: Traction
I'm sure just like equipack it will make wet/dry grass much slicker when galloping/jumping, but with equipack at least you can put in a small stud and there are no problems. I bet in trailers, concrete and other solid footings though, this product might give more of a grip, like wearing tennis shoes in the gym would do. Tennis shoes on grass however are slick so you switch to cleats.

[rcloisonne]

This one also sets up faster (30 vs 45 seconds) and I'd imagine its a bit of a different consistency. They DO recommend warming/drying the hoof with a heat gun, that's probably pretty important in getting it to stick.
Equipak also sets up in 30 seconds, longer in cold weather, shorter in hot. Note they claim "up to" 3 weeks for this item. YMMV and probably will (on the lesser side). :eek:

And yes, Vettech products are expensive. Farriers complaint about it all the time. Some horses with large feet need several 180cc cartridges of Equipak and et al per shoeing. Doubtful VT will come down in price any time soon, however. The "if you come down in price you could sell more" strategy hasn't worked with the Gastrogard folks. :sigh:

[Appassionato]

I saw this done on RFDTV the other night after reading this thread. The way they applied it was as if it was a shoe - did not cover the entire sole or the frog. Applied and allowed to dry then rasped it level.

Kind of like you would the Super Fast or Adhere (both by Vettec)? Huh, did they say why they did it that way? Just curious. I understand the effects of the pour-in products for the sole, but I don't know what it would do for the walls. Interesting!

[CristyC]

Hopefully, I can address some of these concerns having a lot of experience with shoes and Equi-Build (two of my horses, many shoeings AND working with the vet and farrier to document many others) and a little with Sole-Guard (brand new, one pour 9 days ago into ancient mare's front feet). I'll give it a try anyway.

;3027986']........

This stuff lasts for three (maybe more?) weeks? Most horses do best with small trims every two weeks or so. This stuff would not only prevent you from trimming, but would prevent natural wear of the sole to exfoliate shedding material.

Every horse is different. For our aging mare it is working really well. She's 30. It keeps her comfortable w/o shoes. Our other choice for her was shoes that covered her entire sole so this is better. Yes it will impede natural exfoliation for the sole but she wasn't getting that anyway. She CAN NOT go bare. Painful for her.

;3027986'] I also would question if this material allowed the hoof to function as it normally would. Does it hinder expansion? Horses do build up dirt in their hooves, but it sheds on its own. I don't think it's to the benefit of the hoof to have something like that packed into the bottom of the hoof 24/7 for weeks at a time.

I also wonder if this would prevent natural traction of the hoof. If you have a solid surface on the bottom, it doesn't seem like the back of the hoof is able to do its job effectively.

I have another horse that is currently wearing Vettec's Equi-Build with shoes full time. (he was given to me with feet that had been unbalanced his whole life and came complete with digital cushion and bone degeneration. He's now 23) What we have discovered (vet, farrier and I) is that the Equid-Build, complete with a balanced trim/shoe job, is ENHANCING expansion in his heels. (one of our therapeutic goals for him). I have ridden over hill and dale with it and the traction is fine.... it's like tires on pavement on solid sandstone slickrock and when on pebbles or gravel it gives. Fine on sand, dirt and mud too. When they apply it they set the hoof down on a thin styrofoam (foamcore) so as the horse bears weight the foam pushes it up a little and it squeezes out the back of the shoes a bit. Consequently, there is not too much pressure on the frog since they let it balance out before it sets. My horse thinks it's the bomb! He' loves those shoes. I might have a hard time taking them away from him after he doesn't need them anymore.

The Sole-Guard seems to have similar traction (and is even more flexible than the Equi-Build) but the 30 year old mare is no longer ridable so i can't test it other than her moseying around the paddock & barn area. She has too much atrophy in her hindquarters from a thrombosis to be ridden anymore. It definitely has more traction on wet trailer mats than completely barefoot for her. Again they let the horse weight the hoof before it completely sets so the excess can squish out.

;3027986'] Doesn't seem like it would allow the frog to "breathe".

I, personally, am not excited to pour who-knows-what chemicals on my horse's hooves.

Yes it covers the frog. Which, in turn is enhancing the expansion and the bit of pumping blood action the frog does. It keeps moisture in and out when it's applied properly. It gives EXCELLENT support for the digital cushion which helps keep the alignment of the P1, P2 and P3 at the proper angles for the best blood flow possible. (Of course your horses balanced trim is KEY to performance no matter if he's shod, bare, booted or poured. Hoof balance is KEY to NOT cutting off blood flow which is ultimately the key to a healthy as can be hoof.

I am willing to subject my horses to the chemicals if that is what is needed (although I doubt they could put it out there if is wasn't benign) for their particular needs to keep that balance proper and their circulation strong. I wish mine could go natural but it just isn't in the cards for them. The old mare.... probably never, she's gonna die of old age before the chemistry from Sole-Guard will ever affect her. My gelding, well hopefully after we get his hooves healthy again he can go bare but for now it's an instrumental part of his overall health outlook. (and we are getting close!!!! Next trip in he will get x-rayed to see if he's grown coffin bone back like a few other horses that my vet & farrier have been working on. No one thought that could be done. They DID it! I've seen the x-rays)

;3027986'] I don't know. Trimming correctly by focusing on the back of the hooves, providing movement (preferably constant, through 24/7 turnout), and a low sugar diet (preferably no grain, only forage) is the best way to go. Keeping it simple by providing a lifestyle as natural as possible seems to yield the best results.

Amen to that!! Nothing replaces a good balanced trim in the first place (from birth) and proper nutrition (K.I.S.S.). You are sooo right on there! But it's sure good to know there is help for horses that didn't have the luck to having gotten it right the first time around and now need the extra help and support (literally) to get back to a bare ideal. Every horse is different and should be shod/trimmed according to ITS individual conformational needs. (My farrier refers to that as Shoeing the Whole Horse.)

Hope that helps some.

[justdream2ride]

Appassionato - they said it was a young horse - 2 I think - and they were just starting her and trail riding on a gravel driveway and she was getting sore. Since she was so young they didn't want to put shoes on her but wanted to make her more comfy on the rocks.

I guess it would be a bit like a glue on shoe - cept without the shoe! :)

[irishcas]

;3027986']I think I'm the only one that isn't psyched about this.

This stuff lasts for three (maybe more?) weeks? Most horses do best with small trims every two weeks or so. This stuff would not only prevent you from trimming, but would prevent natural wear of the sole to exfoliate shedding material.

Then pop it out after 2 weeks and do a trim :)

I also would question if this material allowed the hoof to function as it normally would. Does it hinder expansion? Horses do build up dirt in their hooves, but it sheds on its own. I don't think it's to the benefit of the hoof to have something like that packed into the bottom of the hoof 24/7 for weeks at a time.

It's good to question, I do that all the time, but I would also, if I were you, try it on a horse to see what you think.

I too would be worried about the frog, but how about trying to put it on the foot and don't cover the frog. I'm going to try that with some of mine.


I don't know. Trimming correctly by focusing on the back of the hooves, providing movement (preferably constant, through 24/7 turnout), and a low sugar diet (preferably no grain, only forage) is the best way to go. Keeping it simple by providing a lifestyle as natural as possible seems to yield the best results.

This is not the end all answer to a perfect sound barefoot horse. One of my own is out 24/7, low sugar diet, excellent hoofcare and he is still getting laminitis in the Spring and he is having an attack right now in the winter.

I believe barefoot is superior to shoeing, but I don't kid myself that they can all be ridden without protection. The boots are a HUGE step in the right direction but they don't fix everything and some horses have trouble with fit and rubs, etc.

I think we should look at anything that will help a horse stay sound to be ridden, as exercise is critical to an overall healthy horse. As long as it is not a device that is permanently fixed to the foot. I am not getting into a barefoot/shod debate so please don't bother.

I like the Dura sole, I'm also starting to play with Dave Richards Equicast (don't bother buying KC's kit, he is just marketing Dave's stuff). Dave's site is www.equicast.us.

I do agree with you Roo that frequent trims are crucial whether shod or bare. But don't bash something til you've tried it yourself.

And please don't think that the perfect setting makes a sound horse... Don't get me wrong it helps, but I think it misleads people who have horses like my Finnegan.

Kindest Regards,

[Auventera Two]

Yes it covers the frog. Which, in turn is enhancing the expansion and the bit of pumping blood action the frog does. .

The horse's frog is NOT a blood pump. The vaculature of the sensitive and insensitive frog is minute. The frog acts as an expansion joint allowing the hoof to distort in all directions, and aids in traction.

There are several theories detailing in depth the circulation of the equine foot, and in studying them, there seems to be alot of similarities, but some differences as well. The theory that I am most comfortable with is that circulation through the capsule is accomplished through the movement of the collateral cartilages restricting blood flow through the proper palmar digital artery and vein in conjunction with pastern descent and ascent. Upon descent, the blood is restricted, building pressure within the capsule. With ascent of the pastern, blood leaves the capsule, under pressure.

Regardless of which theory you subscribe to, I don't know much of anyone anymore who believes or teaches that the frog pumps blood. That's old old logic that has been disproven. :cool:

Sorry to hijack, but this is a really big pet peeve of mine, because it's impossible to understand proper foot function if you believe the frog is a circulatory pump.

[Lookout]

Not that I believe the frog is a pump either but not becasue it isn't highly vascularized. It wouldn't need to be to be a pump. The idea is that would facilitate pumping in other, vascularized structures surrounding it. The theory you describe makes the collateral cartilages the 'pump' and they are even more poorly vascularized than the frog.

The horse's frog is NOT a blood pump. The vaculature of the sensitive and insensitive frog is minute. The frog acts as an expansion joint allowing the hoof to distort in all directions, and aids in traction.

There are several theories detailing in depth the circulation of the equine foot, and in studying them, there seems to be alot of similarities, but some differences as well. The theory that I am most comfortable with is that circulation through the capsule is accomplished through the movement of the collateral cartilages restricting blood flow through the proper palmar digital artery and vein in conjunction with pastern descent and ascent. Upon descent, the blood is restricted, building pressure within the capsule. With ascent of the pastern, blood leaves the capsule, under pressure.

Regardless of which theory you subscribe to, I don't know much of anyone anymore who believes or teaches that the frog pumps blood. That's old old logic that has been disproven. :cool:

Sorry to hijack, but this is a really big pet peeve of mine, because it's impossible to understand proper foot function if you believe the frog is a circulatory pump.

[Auventera Two]

No, they're not a "pump." But they have the ability to influence blood flow through the proper palmar digital vein and artery. To my knowledge, the frog does not have this type of influence on any major vasculature.

If the frog is the "pump" then why don't feet die and fall off in cases of severe thrush and/or contracted heels when the frog is severely compromised, or lost all together? The cartilages and digital cushion may be poor, but it's impossible to simply have no cartilages or DC at *all* barring some catastrophic trauma. It is possible however to have a foot with NO frog at all. If the frog were the vehicle responsible for blood flow, every horse that lost it's frog(s) would have to be euthanized.

But obviously, in cases of sidebone where the cartilages harden, the feet can still live and receive circulation, so clearly circulation is complex and continues to function even in the abscence of healthy cartilages. I don't believe that the ONLY way a hoof receives blood flow is through the process described earlier. But I do believe that OPTIMIUM health, growth, ad circulation is probably in feet with the healthiest cartilages and digital cushions possible, but obviously the feet will still function even in the abscence of this health.

On the healthiest cartilages, the digital artery runs THROUGH the cartilage. So your comment that the cartilages have even less vasculature than the frog is something I can't necessarily agree with.

[CristyC]

The horse's frog is NOT a blood pump. The vaculature of the sensitive and insensitive frog is minute. The frog acts as an expansion joint allowing the hoof to distort in all directions, and aids in traction.

There are several theories detailing in depth the circulation of the equine foot, and in studying them, there seems to be alot of similarities, but some differences as well. The theory that I am most comfortable with is that circulation through the capsule is accomplished through the movement of the collateral cartilages restricting blood flow through the proper palmar digital artery and vein in conjunction with pastern descent and ascent. Upon descent, the blood is restricted, building pressure within the capsule. With ascent of the pastern, blood leaves the capsule, under pressure.


And because the frog allows expansion in all directions it too does help the circulation take place to a certain degree. It is not the end all and be all of hoof blood flow circulation but it does have a "bit" of a factor in it. (I did say "bit", right?) All the parts working together help the whole hoof function as a unit.

So you are right, as am I.... we both understand it somewhat the same. I did not phrase it very well which allowed for misinterpretation, especially because of the old frog/pump theory that no longer holds that much water. Sorry... was merely trying to NOT take an ENTIRE thread page! :-)

[Lookout]

No, they're not a "pump." But they have the ability to influence blood flow through the proper palmar digital vein and artery. To my knowledge, the frog does not have this type of influence on any major vasculature.
If the frog has no ability to influence any major vasculature, it is not because it itself lacks vascularization as you said. You said frogs can't be pumps because they are poorly vascularized, yet lateral cartilages, even more poorly vascularized, are involved in facilitating pumping. That's contradictory.
I don't know what a 'proper' vein is.

If the frog is the "pump" then why don't feet die and fall off in cases of severe thrush and/or contracted heels when the frog is severely compromised, or lost all together?
I'm not claiming it is a pump. I'm claiming its lack of vascularization does not prevent it from being one.

[matryoshka]

Not all parts of pumps actually contain fluid. Some are support structures or move in such a way that they encourage/allow the flow of the fluids.

It seems that the best feet are the ones with healthy frogs, cartileges, and digital cushions. Part of the function of each is to promote the flow of blood back up the leg. That's not all they do. And as shown by horses with diseased frogs or ossified cartileges, blood flow still does occur without one or more of the individual parts contributing.

It's a system, guys. The question is whether any type of hoof protection inhibits part of the system. Pete Ramey (and Dr. Bowker) think that shoes inhibit the health of the lateral cartileges. Dr. Bowker is studying this theory (unless he has finished by now). So any time we apply something to provide protection, it is prudent to think about the adverse effects of the protection. In some cases, the protection is needed more than the hoof function it inhibits.

Does anybody remember who it is that says the coronet band is important to blood flowing back up the leg? IRC, the idea is that the blood is constricted partly by coronet during the loading phase so that the pressure builds during the stride, and then released at breakover so the blood shoots up the leg. I can't remember where I read this, and I'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction to find the source. I need a refresher! Also, it's very possible that I misunderstood what I read at the time, and I'd like to go back over it.

[Auventera Two]

Matryoshka - KC teaches the coronary band is crucial for circulation.

Well, obviously I misunderstood what you were trying to say in regard to the "frog being a pump." When I think of the word "pump" I think of an organ like the heart which pumps blood and obviously is very vascular. ALL parts of the hoof work together, but the "frog is a pump" thing is so old and outdated. The frog's function is not to pump blood. It aids in overall hoof health and function - of course.

[Auventera Two]

I don't know what a 'proper' vein is.

Refer to "The Equine Distal Limb," Jean Marie-Denoix.

It's referenced in about 150 different places.

[Lookout]

Well, obviously I misunderstood what you were trying to say in regard to the "frog being a pump." When I think of the word "pump" I think of an organ like the heart which pumps blood and obviously is very vascular.
Like a lateral cartilage?

After 3 posts you still don't understand the problem with your argument. The characteristic of the frog that you say precludes it from being a pump is also characteristic of the structure you say is a pump.

[Lookout]

Refer to "The Equine Distal Limb," Jean Marie-Denoix.

It's referenced in about 150 different places.

The original French edition does not use that term.

[matryoshka]

Matryoshka - KC teaches the coronary band is crucial for circulation.Thanks. Now I can remember him talking about it on his video while he's showing how the coronet band doesn't really have much (if any?) elasticity. Since I can't do disections myself, I have to try to understand them vicariously through others.

[Auventera Two]

Like a lateral cartilage?

After 3 posts you still don't understand the problem with your argument. The characteristic of the frog that you say precludes it from being a pump is also characteristic of the structure you say is a pump.

Okay Christina. :rolleyes:

Matry - in all the disections we did, we removed the coronary band intact. One person would hold one end, someone else would hold the other end, and pulling as hard as you could against each other, you could NOT get it stretch, like it would if it was elastic. There is definitely very very little elasticity to it.

Another thing we did was to cut under a little section wide enough to slip your finger under, while leaving the rest of it intact on the leg. You slip your finger under, someone loads the limb, and you can feel the constriction of the band as the pastern descends.

It was pretty cool.

[Auventera Two]

The original French edition does not use that term.

Well the English version does. And last I checked, I didn't speak French. ;)

If you want to drop the term "proper" from the term - do it. Doesn't affect me one way or the other.

[caballus]

Not all parts of pumps actually contain fluid. Some are support structures or move in such a way that they encourage/allow the flow of the fluids.
Thank you, Mat!! That's a great explanation.

KIM ... tell me what you're finding using the Equicast? I have a couple of horses who's soles are becoming sensitively thin even though I've not touched the soles ever other than to initially trim down bar to level. As where you are with damp/wet ground ... these horses are out 24/7 on snow, have little to no natural wear from the environment, are both on free choice hay, organic vitamins and minimal amts. of low carb/no sugar pelleted feed (by minimal I mean about a cup +/- 2X day) ... I'm concerned that 'vaccination' season is rapidly approaching and hate to think of the consequences to the hooves after getting their 4 or 5-way vaccines! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr ... so would be interested in how you find the equicast does in helping to protect and allow the sole to thicken? (if it does at all?)

[matryoshka]

I want to try the Equicast too. I'm hoping it will give me an alternative to hoof boots for endurance/CTR rides if I apply it the day before the ride. I'm concerned that boots with gaiters will rub over the distance. Also, I figure I'll use my own horse as a guinea pig before I try it on a client's horse.

BTW, if anybody has tried it, do you need to get the KC package first for the plate that gets the bottom form right? I don't think I'm asking the question right, but hopefully somebody's brain is working better than mine at the moment and can figure out what I mean. (Where's the confused icon when you need it?)

[meaty ogre]

Anyone still using Sole Guard or decide to try it after this thread started? I just came across it on the latest Big Dee's flyer and am curious.

Is this simple enough to do yourself? Is it lasting 3-4 weeks like they say? Initial investment seems high due to needing the gun and tips, but if it works you'd just have to buy the refill cartridges. Very interesting. I would love to hear people experiences with this.

[EqTrainer]

I have used Sole Guard on four horses and have been doing a little bit of casting so I can comment on both products.

The SG is fabulous for a horse who has some concavity but is still thin soled and is in hard work barefoot. In a 3rd level pony I trim, she is just that touch more comfy as she is in hoof boots when working in a hard arena. The other horse I did also has good concavity and had the same result.

Horse w/less concavity was initially more comfortable but more sore as a few days went by. He might do better w/less poured in, it's hard to say. I will try again in a few weeks.

Other horse was not affected either way, has excellent concavity.

Now the Equicasts - oh yes, they rock!!!!! I just need to get up w/Dave to find out WHY he says not to use half a cast.. I am finding them to be wayyy too bulky and think I could do better with less material. I could just cut and find out but I am sure he has a reason...

RE: Vettec - they are a great company, very reliable, lots of customer service. Expensive yes but worth it IMO. The idea that barefoot is always cheaper than shoes is simply not going to be true, IME, for performance horses.

[Lauren!]

Anyone still using Sole Guard or decide to try it after this thread started? I just came across it on the latest Big Dee's flyer and am curious.

Is this simple enough to do yourself? Is it lasting 3-4 weeks like they say? Initial investment seems high due to needing the gun and tips, but if it works you'd just have to buy the refill cartridges. Very interesting. I would love to hear people experiences with this.

Yeah, I never got around to trying it :rolleyes: After asking a million questions, buying the gun, etc. I never actually tried it... my horse has been doing well with nothing, and I haven't been riding much (totally unrelated to his hooves... his feet are doing great!). There's a rocky trail ride coming up, and if I end up going (not sure yet) I may try it on his back feet... I will boot his fronts, but have never booted him behind and am not sure I have boots that fit.

[irishcas]

Honestly, I can't help but to think it's the same product as the Silpak, Equipak, and Equipak CS. Maybe there's a difference in the firmness???

It is NOT the same product, nor does it have the same texture/feel. Equipak and Equipak CS is the same texture/feel, one of them just has Copper Sulfate in it.

Sole Guard is fine for horses who have really good hoof form. I would not use it for the "transitioning" (ah how I've come to hate this word) horse.

You need good sole depth/concavity for it to work. You also need the sole to be really really clean. Vettec instructions state you need to pare out the sole, something good barefoot trimmers won't do.

I have used it for horses who are going on a long rocky trail ride and have the concavity I mentioned.

Another use that a fellow AHA member discovered is to use it in the foot while they are in Renegades. She put Pam on the sole, applied the Sole Guard, and then the Renegades, finally she did a 50 miler in Colorado. When she was done, off came the boots, out popped the SG and the horse was turned back out.

It's cheap enough that you can play with it and test it out. Just remember thinning the sole on a newly deshod, thin soled horse could be a HUGE issue.

SilPak is different as well and I use that to provide cushion under the Equicast.

App should buy all the products and try them out before giving out advice :rolleyes:

[meaty ogre]

Eqtrainer, the horse I am thinking about the SG for has good concavity, and actually his soles are pretty decent too. He was allowed to go too long between shoeings and as a result his frogs atrophied from lack of contact. Farrier and I agreed to pull the shoes and try and encourage the passive contact to restore the frogs. He was sound (as sound as with shoes) same day that we pulled the shoes.
Outwardly his feet are showing improvement (frog is a little wider, sole is exfoliating) but he seems mildly sore (i.e., short strided when ridden on my admittedly hard ground). We have had soaking rains lately followed by warm windy days so the ground went from mush to hard quickly. It's hard to notice so I make my hubby videotape and I can see just a slight ouchiness there. Usually we only walk across the narrowest part of the gravel drive to get to the riding ring, so yesterday I purposely walked him lengthwise on the gravel just to see and it was there...the slight flinchyness. I know gravel can bring that out in most horses but I just wonder if this guy could benefit from SG or the cast or something while his feet are normalizing. His walls are holding up well and there is no bruising on the sole (yet). I'm sure his DC is crummy considering his frogs were so shrunken, and I partially wonder if that is an issue now that his frogs are more in contact with the ground. I'd like to keep him barefoot because the farrier and I both agree that is the best way to encourage his frogs to regenerate and normalize his hoof structure. Any thoughts or tips for me with regards to the SG?

[irishcas]

Now the Equicasts - oh yes, they rock!!!!! I just need to get up w/Dave to find out WHY he says not to use half a cast.. I am finding them to be wayyy too bulky and think I could do better with less material. I could just cut and find out but I am sure he has a reason...


EQ:

We (AHA Members) are trying half a cast and it is working great. I think Dave's reluctance is due to the fact that lots of movement will wear thru a 1/2 cast faster than the entire roll.

I'm just smearing a bit of Superfast along the rim where the foot is weightbearing. I am really pleased with how it is holding up on rides here in the Northeast. Of course I've got wet and rocks so it wouldn't be the same if you live in the West.

Just more tools for the toolbox :)

Regards,

[Lauren!]

Another use that a fellow AHA member discovered is to use it in the foot while they are in Renegades. She put Pam on the sole, applied the Sole Guard, and then the Renegades, finally she did a 50 miler in Colorado. When she was done, off came the boots, out popped the SG and the horse was turned back out.


Since she sprayed the hoof with Pam (so the SoleGuard wouldn't stick to the hoof) why not just use SilPak under boots? One less step, and SilPak is nearly half the price. I know it's a different (softer?) product... but would it matter? I might have to try that myself ;)

[irishcas]

Hey Lauren:

I'm not sure why she chose SG over SP I'll find out and let ya know ;)

Regards,

[Auventera Two]

Kim -

I am seriously considering doing Equicast on my endurance horse because most of the time she doesn't really need boots, but she kind of needs more than totally barefoot on rocky trails. I'd like something that is 100% carefree during the ride.

Can you wrap it over the sole more instead of sticking to the "bar wedge" configuration?

I agree with half a roll. A full roll is very bulky - especially on my 00 sized horse.

The only thing that concerns me is that this horse ever so slightly tends to get contracted. The heels hook in a little. I'm concerned about putting something on her that stays on for weeks at a time. I suppose I could place the wrap then take it off after the ride but that would turn into a lot of work.

Kim, do you have any tips for getting the back of the wrap to not squeeze the heels too much?

[irishcas]

A2,

I never leave it on for more than 2 weeks at a time, otherwise, might as well shoe :)

Not sure what you mean by the bar wedge thingy.

You could also try the 3 x 4, much less bulky on the 00 feet.

1/2 a cast is nice as well. Again, would never leave it on longer than 2 weeks.

I will try to find someone to video my wrapping to show how low I keep it on the back of the heels.

Does that answer the question or create more confusion? :D

Regards,

[matryoshka]

Did anybody see the latest Chronicle? The horse that won the 100 mile Biltmore was barefoot. I think it had something like Sole Pak in at first, but it came out early in the ride.

Two other 100 milers who finished in the top 10 had the Renegade glueons in the front (shoes in the back). I think they may also have had a sole packing in there, but I don't know which one. A2, the Renegade glue-ons are worth thinking about for hoof protection when upping your distance. I can't wait to hear how your first 50 miler goes!

[Lauren!]

Hey Lauren:

I'm not sure why she chose SG over SP I'll find out and let ya know ;)


Thanks! SilPak is much cheaper, which would be a great attribute for a single use pad :yes:

Kim, if you need a video camera-holder just call me... I'm sure many people would like to see how you're doing the casts, they seem like an interesting option.

[EqTrainer]

The idea of making custom pads for boots is intriguing :) I have to say, it is on my mind!

[irishcas]

Kim, if you need a video camera-holder just call me... I'm sure many people would like to see how you're doing the casts, they seem like an interesting option.

Want to come up Friday? Call me....


Regards,

[rmh]

What is the difference between equicast and the phw?

[Meshach]

The phw is a ripoff of equicast, KC copied Dave's product and is marketing it as his own.

If you want more sole cover, you could buy the 4 x 4 casts. But if you want less, the 3 x 4 or even 2 x 4.

I find that the casts last about two weeks in the fronts and longer in the hinds (barefoot).

For not squeezing the heel bulbs, you kinda want to do a crisscross and not pull it tight, drape it as if you were wrapping their legs in vetwrap (you wouldn't pull tight with vetwrap).

I also recommend putting them on dry and then wetting them after, you have much more time to get it right. If you soak first, you have to do it quickly because they set fast and that can get nervewracking! I also do it in the stall (bring in a bucket of water and a sponge, scissors, the cast, put my rubber gloves on). That way you get some nice concavity because when you put the hoof down, the shavings smoosh the cast up into the sole (and also pick up the opposite leg for a minute). Cut any cast material might have gotten over the coronary band before it sets.

[irishcas]

What is the difference between equicast and the phw?

Nothing. Except KC stole the product from Dave Richards, told everyone it was the cure all for everything (btw, it's not) and patented or trademarked the words Perfect Hoof Wear system :rolleyes:

But it from Dave (or me) it's Cheaper and it doesn't support KC.

Regards,

[caballus]

Rereading the posts and a concern popped up in my mind ... these sole protectors that are meant to be on the hoof for weeks and cover the whole sole - what about any Thrush or other anaerobic critters that might be living in the hoof? (Yeast). Covering them up with a sole protector for any length of time and you'll just be aiding in their proliferation. ???

[meaty ogre]

Ahem...stomping feet like a 2 year old...
I bumped this thread back up for ME. :-) Just kidding, but in seriousness, can all you experts help a newbie out with this?

First and foremost, I won't touch the sole. I've fired farriers for that in the past so paring to prep for the sole-guard is out. I do have a sanding block that I use for minor work on my mini that I could "sand" the sole with a little bit perhaps to prep for the sole-guard to stick better? Good idea? Bad idea? I'm not talking about sanding it smooth...just a couple swipes to make sure the dirt is off and maybe rough it up for better adhesion.

Can I do this myself or would I be better off having my farrier do it? I put a call into him because I know he already has a gun and that in itself would save me money. I am not a do-it-yourselfer. I have a few rasps but I only use them for little touch-ups between real, professional trims. I also use one to work with my mini who doesn't like being handled a whole bunch. Other than that I don't know what I'm doing so I pay someone who does.

How easy does the SG come off? If I decide it's not working can I pull it out or will that damage the sole? Do I have to wait for it to fall out?

[Auventera Two]

Originally Posted by rmh http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3245019#post3245019)
What is the difference between equicast and the phw?
Nothing.

That is NOT true. I talked to Dave at length on the phone, and even Dave himself recognizes the difference in Equicast, and PHW. PHW has NO FIBERGLASS at all in the cast, and Equicast does. PHW is all polymers. But as Dave said - he tried this too, years ago, and the polymer casts just didn't hold up - didn't perform the job adequately. He said it would be a matter of time before KC realizes the polymer casts are not durable enough. I cannot personally comment on this one way or the other. I've read some good reports so far of PHW holding up for 6 weeks at a time, and some reports that they fall off after 3 days. I imagine it depends on the application style as well as the hoof conformation, and other factors.

But it is a fact that the casts are VERY different in composition and therefore end stage hardness and hardiness. The whole point of KC CHANGING the cast and marketing it as his own was to get rid of the FIBERGLASS in the casting material so it was more pliable and distorted more when the horse moved.

PHW cannot be applied without adhesive - Equicast CAN. It also seems like PHW is much more susceptible to less than ideal temperaturs than Equicast is. The compositions are different and therefore the handling and application of them are also different.

This is like saying that concrete and asphalt are exactly identical because they both provide a hard surface to drive vehicles on and whoever marketed one after the other, "stole" the idea from the other person. True they may serve the same function but in reality they are different because they have different compositions and properties.

Look I'm not a KC worshipper but facts are FACTS. The casts ARE DIFFERENT because one contains a lot of fiberglass and the other contains NONE. KC has been developing a higher performance version of the cast and perhaps that one contains some fiberglass?? I have no idea because I haven't followed it at all.

[Lauren!]

Ahem...stomping feet like a 2 year old...
I bumped this thread back up for ME. :-) Just kidding, but in seriousness, can all you experts help a newbie out with this?

First and foremost, I won't touch the sole. I've fired farriers for that in the past so paring to prep for the sole-guard is out. I do have a sanding block that I use for minor work on my mini that I could "sand" the sole with a little bit perhaps to prep for the sole-guard to stick better? Good idea? Bad idea? I'm not talking about sanding it smooth...just a couple swipes to make sure the dirt is off and maybe rough it up for better adhesion.

Can I do this myself or would I be better off having my farrier do it? I put a call into him because I know he already has a gun and that in itself would save me money. I am not a do-it-yourselfer. I have a few rasps but I only use them for little touch-ups between real, professional trims. I also use one to work with my mini who doesn't like being handled a whole bunch. Other than that I don't know what I'm doing so I pay someone who does.

How easy does the SG come off? If I decide it's not working can I pull it out or will that damage the sole? Do I have to wait for it to fall out?


I am not an expert, nor do I play one on TV, nor have I played with the SoleGuard (yet), but I have played with adhesives a bit and tried HoofArmor a while back (and it DID stay on, just did not make my horse less sore). So, JMHO, but...

I think having a super clean, dry hoof will make the difference betweenthe SoleGuard sticking well or not. I would clean the hoof really well with a hoof pick, then a wire brush, then denatured alcohol. I would put the denatured alcohol in a spray bottle, brush, spray, brush again, then rinse with a spray of alcohol and dry (a hair dryer or heat gun would probably be useful to make the hoof really dry, and warm), then put the SoleGuard in. Don't put the hoof down before you're totally finished... if you have to put it down, put it on clean paper or a feed bag or something.

I was planning on doing it myself, I just never got around to it (and the horse doesn't really need it at the moment). Your farrier has an advantage because he already has the applicator gun, and is familiar with Vettec products. I think it IS something you can do, but if you don't want to make the investment in "stuff" just yet I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask him to do it too. For what it's worth, I bought my applicator gun on Ebay at a really good price:D They do come up there from time to time.

[irishcas]

Rereading the posts and a concern popped up in my mind ... these sole protectors that are meant to be on the hoof for weeks and cover the whole sole - what about any Thrush or other anaerobic critters that might be living in the hoof? (Yeast). Covering them up with a sole protector for any length of time and you'll just be aiding in their proliferation. ???


Gwen:

When I use the Equicasts I fill the foot with Equipak CS, so far so good. I also don't leave this stuff on for more than 2 weeks at a time. As I've said it has been good so far - even the Canker horse I'm working on.

As for Sole Guard I wouldn't leave that in for too long either. I think we all need to experiment and see what we find and share that knowledge :D

Well it is unbelievably gorgeous here today so I'm off to ride, it's sunny but chilly enough to have driven the damn bugs away :)

Regards,

[matryoshka]

meatyogre, I haven't used the product, but I might be able to help you anyway. If your horse has good concavity, then you shouldn't need to pare anything away. If you want a super clean hoof surface, clean it with a wire brush. That is a time-honored way of really cleaning the sole. Also, it might rough up the surface just enough to provide a better sticking surface for the sole guard.

As for paring sole, are you talking about paring live sole or flaking off exfoliating sole? Exfoliating sole is chalky. The wire brush would possibly remove any of this that would flake away too easily so that the sole guard would pop off too easily. If you get rid of the loose stuff uisng a wire brush, one would think that will help.

Again, I haven't used the product. I'd like to, but I've been too busy this month to think straight, let alone tackle a new product. This is definitely on my list of products to try, even with my flat-footed boy.

[caballus]

Gwen:

When I use the Equicasts I fill the foot with Equipak CS, so far so good. I also don't leave this stuff on for more than 2 weeks at a time. As I've said it has been good so far - even the Canker horse I'm working on.

As for Sole Guard I wouldn't leave that in for too long either. I think we all need to experiment and see what we find and share that knowledge :D That'd be good. I'll be interested to seeing/reading the results.

Well it is unbelievably gorgeous here today so I'm off to ride, it's sunny but chilly enough to have driven the damn bugs away :)

Regards,Well, BULLY FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *LOL* .... I haven't had time to even THINK of riding (6 "emergency" horses this short week alone squeezed in between my regular appts.).. and by the end of the day when I do have time to think about it I'm too tired to keep on thinking ... and way too tired to climb up on the back of one of my critters! :( (For pete's sake -- my back won't even hold ME up at the end of a work day ... never mind be in good form for riding. Sheeeeeeesh! I'm gettin' too old and missin' "my youth"!)

--Gwen

[ChocoMare]

For not squeezing the heel bulbs, you kinda want to do a crisscross and not pull it tight, drape it as if you were wrapping their legs in vetwrap (you wouldn't pull tight with vetwrap).

I also recommend putting them on dry and then wetting them after, you have much more time to get it right. If you soak first, you have to do it quickly because they set fast and that can get nervewracking! I also do it in the stall (bring in a bucket of water and a sponge, scissors, the cast, put my rubber gloves on). That way you get some nice concavity because when you put the hoof down, the shavings smoosh the cast up into the sole (and also pick up the opposite leg for a minute). Cut any cast material might have gotten over the coronary band before it sets.

Could you get this dry application method either photographed step by step or video'd? My trimmer occasionally casts my Percheron's front hooves and with those big honkin' feets, she often runs out of time because they're starting to set. The dry/then wet application would be of great help. Thanks!

[Auventera Two]

That's how I apply the casts also - just wrap them on "dry" and then hold the foot up and sponge water thoroughly over the foot. Of course the casts aren't really "dry" but they are sticky with resin. You still have to wear wet latex gloves to keep the casting from sticking to your hands or gloves.

The only drawback to this is that the water splashing and running on the floor wets the other hoof and your barn aisle gets flooded. So the solution I've found to this is to put a flat rubber feed tub under the foot being sponged to collect the water.

[ChocoMare]

Thanks AT. :yes: She does wear surgical gloves when doing the castings already. And fortunately the area where we work is an outdoor concrete slab and water runs off very easily, so no worry about flooding a barn aisle! :D

[Meshach]

It's the same procedure as if it were wet.

You don't need that much water, just lightly sponge it on, I just do a couple of swipes. If your barn aisle is getting flooded, maybe using too much water? And you could try the stall approach, then you also don't have to do the little pyramid of shavings or sand to place the foot onto when it sets.

and yep, even though it is dry, it is still sticky and you need the gloves.

[Auventera Two]

Maybe flooded isn't the right word. ;) It gets wet. Even a little bit of wet is a pain because it gets the other hoof wet, and it creates a slippery spot. I end up with a spot that's wet about 18" in diameter. According to the literature you have to liberally sponge on water and that's what I do.

[grayarabs]

The May 23rd issue of COTH states that "Junior" (Midnight Revelation) (AA) won the Biltmore barefoot with the use of Sole-Guard "a little bit of pour-in pad fell out early in ride"
"finished sound" (100 miles!).
Very interesting!!!

[ScotTNMe]

Yep I am DEFINITELY going to try this stuff (Sole Guard). I was pretty excited when I saw the ad as it sounds like a perfect solution to my old guy's tenderness on gravel especially right after he's trimmed. I'm not there often enough to take boots on and off and don't want to keep asking the BO to do it either.

I emailed the company that makes Sole Guard and they were very helpful and sent me the names of nearby outlets to buy it. I went to get some last week and the shop said it's flying off the shelves and they can't keep it in stock it's so popular. Seems to work very well. The hard part will be getting the feet clean and dry enough. My horse is in a gravel paddock and the little rocks get almost embedded in his feet. I almost need a pick-axe to dig it all out :lol: !! And I don't have one of those guns to insert the product - they're around $70 but my farrier might have one. If not, the people at the store said they'd lend one to me for a couple of days.

[ChocoMare]

I'm bumping this back up to see if anyone has any new updates on Sole Guard and/or Equipak.

Most likely my Perch will be back in casts and will need some sole protection, other than a garden kneeling pad!

Lemme know. Thanks!

[Auventera Two]

I have Libbey in Equi-Pak CS with Equicasts right now. She's done very well in this setup, it's been on about 2 weeks. The Equi-Pak CS cures soft and rubbery. I just wish it weren't so darned expensive.

[Jsalem]

I saw that ad in the Chronicle too. Looked really interesting. BUT, then I read the article about "Junior" winning that race. I kid you not, read the article- it clearly states that they had used a packing in his feet that "fell out after the first mile or so."

My farrier got a good chuckle out of that!

[irishcas]

Choco:

Sole Guard is more for horses who have good concavity and healthy feet. I would use Easycare Comfort Pads for cushioning.

I also would use Equi-Pak CS to fill in the central sulcus and collateral grooves.

A word of warning though. Keep these products cool, I put the Sole Guard on my laminitic Morgan during out over 100 degree heat wave.

He immediately got very antsy and I realized the Sole Guard was blistering hot as it set.

I pulled them out as soon as I realized but the damage was done, he was laminitic for 3 days and extremely ouchy.

I've since applied it to another horse and since it was cool it didn't get as hot.

Regards,

[matryoshka]

A2, have you tried a distance ride in the Equicast yet? I'm dying to know how they do for mileage. I'm pretty sure the little Arab mare I got this spring is not going to make it barefoot on the trail, and I want to do CTR with her next year. I suppose I could glue on Easyboots, but I wouldn't mind trying the wraps, either.

[D1nOnlyRocketPony]

We are using the sole guard and loving it. But the foot needs to be very clean and dry ( we tried one without the blow dryer - not so good). The dryer/cleanliness really made the difference. Our guys also have pretty good concavity as a side note.

When i purchased my show mare earlier this year, the vet that did the pre-purchase used the equicast to cover her feet while hauling her from there (alabama) to NC. My eyes kind of bulged when he said " I casted her feet so they wouldn't break since she paws" as i had never encountered this stuff before. She is a pretty good pawer and couldn't wear these out for her life. I thought they'd be hard to remove, but they weren't bad.

[NCSue]

Anyone use the equicast with shoes? If so, what length of time? Farrier suggested going this route with a senior horse who is very flat footed, shelly hooves (probably can't nail a shoe on w/o some sort of assistance), lame w/o shoes, very arthritic. Trying to find some ways for him to be comfortable. I am concerned about frog being sealed for extended period of time.

[ScotTNMe]

Thanks for all the info now and I'm rethinking the Sole Guard since it appears the feet have to be absolutely clean and dry and it helps if they're concave. I'm going to have a problem with all three of those criteria! I may have to resort to putting on the Old Macs.

Just heard about another product called Hoof Wraps that appears to be a lighter version of an easy boot. They last about a week and fasten on the foot with velcro straps. They come with a liner for the sole and are $19.95 a pair, I believe. But if you order online the minimum order is 10 pairs! There are some stores that sell them but none in Canada and none in Washington state so I guess I won't be trying those anytime soon :no:!

Is there something that can be painted or applied to the hoof to harden the sole? I know there's lots out there but what works the best?

[goeslikestink]

Trimmer friends and I have been discussing this product but due to newness no one has any experience to report. Someone did contact Vet-tec and according to them it is an inert urethane. The difference between it and the other products mentioned is that it adheres to the foot with no shoe holding it in.

bit like bitumen tar then as it looks the same

[matryoshka]

Keratex hoof hardener works well for some horses. I tried it on my flat-footed OTTB, but he actually didn't do well with hardened soles! Strange, I know. The soft feet suited him, apparently, so I used boots for hoof protection while riding. Sole Guard was also not an option, because they don't sound like they'd be helpful for flat footed horses.

[ScotTNMe]

Thanks Matryoshka, I know good old Keratex has been around for ages. Maybe I'll give it a try. I'm sure it will be easier than taking boots on and off all the time. He is foundered and it's a struggle to lift his feet so I can clean them. He is better on softer ground but off and on sore on gravel. So maybe harder hooves wouldn't be the answer either. But I might try that route and see. Or I was thinking of asking if I could bring in some sand for his paddock to soften up the footing a bit. He eats in his shelter so I don't think there'd be a problem with him ingesting sand with his feed.

[matryoshka]

If your horse gets really ouchy, it is hard to beat SoftRides. The horse can wear them in the paddock, since they allow airflow. A friend of mine has used them on a couple of horses she cares for. One recently foundered, and she is now in the field walking around very comfortably (in a muzzle) with SoftRides.

[cloudyandcallie]

I used, or rather I bought and my farrier used, the vettec pour in pads with shoes when my old ottb mare was given a dex shot and rotated. forget name of the pads, but it's the one in jeffers in the blue tubes. worked great, stayed in for 5 or 6 weeks, only fell out one time when we went just over 6 weeks cause farrier was ill. it had enough 'give" to allow her to not be sore and to give her support.
don't know about pads staying in w/o shoes, but vettec is great!

oh and the lifedatalabs hoof disinfectant, a misnomer, worked great to harden my mare and my gelding's hooves several years ago when we were in very sandy soil. It worked much better than the keratex and we got more of it for the price.

[Crooked Horse]

Just heard about another product called Hoof Wraps that appears to be a lighter version of an easy boot. They last about a week and fasten on the foot with velcro straps. They come with a liner for the sole and are $19.95 a pair, I believe. But if you order online the minimum order is 10 pairs! There are some stores that sell them but none in Canada and none in Washington state so I guess I won't be trying those anytime soon :no:!


I just bought a single pair of hoof wraps! Go to the manufacturer's website: www.hoofwraps.com and order them direct. They are $19.95 each, not per pair. The customer service is awesome!!!

[Tom Bloomer]

The theory you describe makes the collateral cartilages the 'pump' and they are even more poorly vascularized than the frog.
Really? All those cadavers I dissected must have been a fluke! The collateral cartridges resemble a firm sponge filled with blood - at least the ones I've actually cut out of a cadaver and held in my hand. Sort of makes me wonder if you've ever done a dissection . . . if not, then why not? I know it can be messy, but the learning opportunity is incredible.

[Tom Bloomer]

How easy does the SG come off?
If you don't apply it to a clean dry surface, it will fall out all by itself in a matter of minutes. :winkgrin: Using a heat gun (like a hair dryer, but higher heat) to dry the sole helps get better adhesion. Most of the Vetech products are eurethane based. Eurethane bonds to moisture. So if you want a good bond, you have to eliminate the moisture from the surface. Heat will cause the moisture to evaporate from the first few cell layers of horn.

If you warm the sole untill it is hot to the touch (remember horses can walk on hot sand and pavement that would blister human feet, so you can heat the sole to over 200deg.F as long as you remove the heat source IMMEDIATELY after reaching that temperature). Now that you have heated the sole, you've also killed most of the pathogens (germs, bugs, microscopic critters) so you can go ahead and seal it up for a few weeks with some confidence that most of what you are encapsulating is dead.

http://www.vettec.com

[amanda.stewart]

HAS anyone done successful testing ont his stuff yet?

[ltw]

I have a horse that has shivers and we cannot get hind shoes on him. I had my farrier put it on 3 times this summer. It is advertised to last up to 3 weeks. It never did. The first time it lasted a week. The most it stayed in was 10-12 days. It does not stay on the hoof sole if the horse is on blue stone, sand or anything abrassive.

Great idea, but requires repeated re-application.

we use dheat, hair dryer. cleaned foot very carefully, dried foot with hair dryer, etc. still did not last.

[Txfarrier11]

Does anyone know if this company is interested in working with trimmers/farriers to really field test the product.


Yes, you have hit on a subject I do know a little bit about. My friend Tab Pigg who took his AFA Certification next to me in '89 is now a field rep for Vettec. Back in '89 I had the idea that Tab was a pretty good kid and might be a pretty good horseshoer one day. Tab passed me up in the Farrier world like I was standing still and today shoes 8-10 horses at Vettec demos a year and could buy and sell me. So much for first impressions.

I have been using the Vettec products for 8 years now and wouldn't leave home without it. I get the names of the products mixed up but the Adhere or Equibuld either one work GREAT for transitioning horses to barefoot. I use a thick bead around the perimiter of the hoof to form a "shoe" and it sure saves a lot of panicedcalls to "Come put the shoes back on, Pookie is ouchy" I have had it stay on longer than three weeks and in fact I usualy find a good portion there at normal trim intervals.

Did I mention the stuff is GREAT? It opens vistas in farriery that would otherwise be closed. You no longer have to worry about whether there is enough hoof/sole to shoe because you bring 'em with you in a tube. This product can really make a hero out of a farrier with lame horse owners, even if you are a bum again at the next stop

Heres a video of Tab using Adhere to afix a steel shoe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JblXMGzQE5Y


I'd give anything if I could have found a video without Ralph Casey in it.

[Txfarrier11]

It is advertised to last up to 3 weeks. It never did. The first time it lasted a week. The most it stayed in was 10-12 days. It does not stay on the hoof sole if the horse is on blue stone, sand or anything abrassive.

Great idea, but requires repeated re-application.

we use dheat, hair dryer. cleaned foot very carefully, dried foot with hair dryer, etc. still did not last.

I would say that for ME there was a learning curve. YMMV

[matryoshka]

I purchased some to try on a distance horse I'm leasing. He came out of shoes three years ago (farrier got mad at owner, refused to call her back, horse was in backwards shoes almost two months after foundering). I went out to trim to buy the owner some time to find another farrier. Horse went sound and I'm still trimming him. He's had contracted heels since he first came out of shoes. He lives in a wet environment, and the heels would not decontract no matter what I did.

When I brought him to my place, which is drier, his heels started to open up. And he became sore on rocks (had been WTC sound on all surfaces). Thought perhaps his frogs were sore because the heels are opening up. So, I remembered this thread and bought some Sole Guard to check it out. The next day, horse got kicked in the pasture and required surgery to remove pieces of his splint bone. That was a week ago.

If he ever gets sound for riding again, I'll give the Sole Guard a try. By then he probably will have gotten over his soreness from the decontraction. He was already getting much better on rocks the few days before he got kicked. He was back to asking to trot on gravel. The horse likes to GO, so his wanting to drop to a walk on rocks was a definite sign of soreness.

The lady at the farrier supply store mentioned that farriers have had trouble with Sole Guard coming off when it got wet. She wanted me to keep track of what I did and how well it worked. I was looking forward to trying it. I noticed that the directions at the farrier supply store had them covering the entire sole all the way out to the hoof wall. I had planned just to put it in the solar arch and collateral grooves for support, leaving the frog uncovered. I'm wondering if the problems they've experienced were because they were covering the entire bottom surface.

When Moon is well enough to ride again (IF he's ever well enough to ride again), I'll try it and report back.

[Sparky Boy]

I have been using the Vettec products for 8 years now and wouldn't leave home without it. I get the names of the products mixed up but the Adhere or Equibuld either one work GREAT for transitioning horses to barefoot. I use a thick bead around the perimiter of the hoof to form a "shoe" and it sure saves a lot of panicedcalls to "Come put the shoes back on, Pookie is ouchy" I have had it stay on longer than three weeks and in fact I usualy find a good portion there at normal trim intervals.



That's very interesting to me! I have a barefoot one that could probably benefit from that. He's fairly flat on the bottom so the soleguard probably wouldn't work. Farrier just came out for a trim but I have a few small tubes of adhere in the barn.

Any prep to the foot? Do you put the bead just between the edge of the hoof and the white line? How thick should the bead be? How long did it stay on?

Thanks!

[amanda.stewart]

I'm sooo glad I found this thread! You guys are the kind of ones I want to hear from :)

[amanda.stewart]

Yes, you have hit on a subject I do know a little bit about. My friend Tab Pigg who took his AFA Certification next to me in '89 is now a field rep for Vettec. Back in '89 I had the idea that Tab was a pretty good kid and might be a pretty good horseshoer one day. Tab passed me up in the Farrier world like I was standing still and today shoes 8-10 horses at Vettec demos a year and could buy and sell me. So much for first impressions.

I have been using the Vettec products for 8 years now and wouldn't leave home without it. I get the names of the products mixed up but the Adhere or Equibuld either one work GREAT for transitioning horses to barefoot. I use a thick bead around the perimiter of the hoof to form a "shoe" and it sure saves a lot of panicedcalls to "Come put the shoes back on, Pookie is ouchy" I have had it stay on longer than three weeks and in fact I usualy find a good portion there at normal trim intervals.

what about the SUPER FAST stuff?

[ronnalee]

I have a 22 yr old gelding who has chronic laminitis. He is barefoot and has thin soles. Unfortunately where we live in TX the grass has alot of sugar. His problems started after moving to TX. Anyway, we put the easyboot epic on him and it gives him relief, but they say not to leave on for over 24 hours. So when we take them off he can hardly walk. I've started wondering if we should consider putting him down due to his pain. I saw this product sole-guard and found this thread so I'm wondering if it covers the whole sole for a couple of weeks, then why can't he keep the boots on more than 24 hours at a time? Isn't it a breathing issue? Also he has trouble growing hoof wall on the sides. He's walking completely on his soles and frog. The ground here is hard clay (like cement). We put up a pasture paradise to make him work his way around the pasture because I don't ride him anymore. My husband took Pete Ramey's course and does both horses feet every 2 weeks. Our mare who foundered after moving here, her hoofs and the natural concave are great now. The gelding's back feet are getting better but not the front feet. We are also battling white line with him. I'm open to suggestions. I just want him to be comfortable.

[Nlevie]

I too have wanted to try this & was hoping after all this time someone would've had some experience with it ? I know one person who tried it on a tender-footed TB who was between shoeings. He says he applied it properly, but a week later rode him and they fell out as he galloped down a dirt road ?

[matryoshka]

I haven't gotten to try it yet because the horse I was going to use it on got kicked the day before I was to apply it. Surgery and aftercare cost $2500 to remove pieces of the fragment bone.

I have heard from others that it comes out when the feet get wet. I wanted to see for myself.

[irishcas]

I have a 22 yr old gelding who has chronic laminitis. He is barefoot and has thin soles. Unfortunately where we live in TX the grass has alot of sugar. His problems started after moving to TX. Anyway, we put the easyboot epic on him and it gives him relief, but they say not to leave on for over 24 hours. So when we take them off he can hardly walk. I've started wondering if we should consider putting him down due to his pain. I saw this product sole-guard and found this thread so I'm wondering if it covers the whole sole for a couple of weeks, then why can't he keep the boots on more than 24 hours at a time? Isn't it a breathing issue? Also he has trouble growing hoof wall on the sides. He's walking completely on his soles and frog. The ground here is hard clay (like cement). We put up a pasture paradise to make him work his way around the pasture because I don't ride him anymore. My husband took Pete Ramey's course and does both horses feet every 2 weeks. Our mare who foundered after moving here, her hoofs and the natural concave are great now. The gelding's back feet are getting better but not the front feet. We are also battling white line with him. I'm open to suggestions. I just want him to be comfortable.

Well first I sure hope you have the horses OFF the grass and on an IR diet.

Second, the sole guard is NOT for foundered, thin soled horses. I wouldn't use Epics for turnout, I would use the Old Mac's. But that being said, I would get the laminitis under control and I would use Equicast. www.equicast.us

What do you mean he took Pete Ramey's course? Pete doesn't have any courses, although he used to let people ride with him for 1 - 3 days. Do you mean your husband attended Pete's 2 day clinic?

Where in Texas are you? Eddie Drabek is in that area and a wonderful trimmer. If you PM me maybe I can get you some more experienced help.

Regards,

[grayarabs]

Ronna - also would like to know generally where you are in Texas. Big state - different temps and grasses. ie cold vs warm grasses/hays and sugar content. Were your horses previously not on grass? Perhaps you should start a new thread for your horses - including photos of the hooves - or link to see them - ie side and sole shots, etc. I "second" having Eddie have a look-see at your horses/hooves.

[txladybug]

Bumping this up...

Any updates from people using sole-guard?

[Penthilisea]

This stuff worked GREAT on my flat footed QH with sensative soles.... but it only stayed in 24-48 hours. He does live outside, but he isn't terribly active out there. I think for an event they would be great, or under shoes or in temporary boots. The farrier and I split the cost, since I got exactly 1 ride out of them. :no:

[txladybug]

I am curious about what process you used to clean/dry the soles before application? I am trying to decide whether to invest in experimenting with this product. If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is!

How flat is your horses soles? Do they have any concavity at the tip of the frog?

[matryoshka]

I've had it stay on for up to 2 weeks. I trimmed, and cleaned the foot as thoroughly as I could. Then I used a hair dryer to dry the hoof. Applied the Sole Guard into the collateral grooves and the hollow part of a the sole. Cover with thick plastic, then let the horse stand on it to make a flat surface.

Once it is totally set up, you can peel the plastic off.

I'm still not great at applying it to have a nice surface, and it oozes out of the collateral grooves and needs to be worked back up, but once it is in there, it adheres okay. You also go through a couple of mixing tips, because it hardens in there fast. I had to use one mixing tip per hoof.

Prolonged wetness makes the Sole Guard pop out. Frank, who is flat footed, kept it in until a couple days after it snowed and started to melt. The slush seems to be what made it come out.