Sore back, does anyone have any insight? UPDATE post #77

[Rightlead]

Hi everyone!
For about the last 6 months, my horse has been having saddle fit issues that have led to something more serious in his back/shoulders. I’m wondering if any of you have any insights to what may be going on with my boy. He’s a 6 year coming 7 year old Hanoverian who is a successful 3rd/ schooling 4th level dressage horse.

I first noticed his tight back sometime last February. I immediately called my saddle fitter and had them check it (it had just been fitted a few months before) and they restuffed/fitted it for me. They said it was shifting left, which I had felt. So after that, I thought things would get better. It did for awhile but then he began to feel tighter more often, maybe a couple times a week) but always worked out of it.

I was lucky enough to be able to go to the World Cup last April in Las Vegas, and while I was there, I spoke in detail to one of the venders there, and ended up buying a custom made brand new saddle. They had me take pics, video, and have a tracing done so they could make this saddle for my horse. When I got the saddle in July, it needed some adjusting, and luckily their rep was coming through my area soon. I took him to her, and she fitted the saddle.

Well, things were ok until about late November. He began to feel tight in his back again, but he still worked out of it quickly and would become lose and nicely over his back with a few times around the ring stretching nicely. But little by little, I began to notice he was slightly unwilling to go forward in medium and extended canter at times. There would be a small pause, and then he would go. Well, being the paranoid person I am, in mid December I drove my horse 6 hours to meet my fitter (it was the closest she would be to me for the next few months) and she fixed it again. We had no explanation as to why his shoulders were changing so much, but one was dramatically more developed than the other. The horse has always been very supple both directions and nice in the mouth. So she centered the saddle and I thought ok, it’ll get better now.

But within a week, I knew I had a serious problem. At the beginning of my ride, he would try to pop into canter, then immediately stretch his neck down down down. He would continue to do this for a few times around the ring. Hop, hop, hop. He would be better after cantering, but always wanted to stretch as low as he could. I quite riding him immediately and called the vet. Please don’t slam me for not calling the vet when this all started, the signs were so tiny, and we (my trainer and many educated people at my barn) all thought it was saddle fit issue.

But anyway, the vet found no signs of lameness while on the lunge. He’s completely even and tracks up nicely, engages his hindquarters nicely, is freely moving forward. No limb lameness has ever been seen at all. He’s totally happy on the lunge, but put a saddle on him on the lunge, he hops a little, but it’s better. Put a rider on him and he hops A LOT. But he’s always wanting to stretch his head down as far as he can. He seems to be the most comfortable this way.

So the vet put him on Robaxin for a month, which he finished about 3 weeks ago. Over the course of the last 2 months, I have done chiro (she said he was tight in his back and his hind end was locked up a bit) Sorry, I don’t remember the exact terminology she used! But he got a nice adjustment, then I had him massaged, and he was very tight in the back still. I also did the Game Ready System on him twice daily for 2 weeks straight. It’s a dry cold massage therapy machine. Very cool!

I also have been rubbing Sore No More on him twice a day. During this time I lunged him long and low, he stretches very willingly, to keep up some of his fitness. (Vet advised this) He’s on an herbal muscle relaxer as well that the vet prescribed. He is much looser in the back, you can see it as well as feel it. When the Robaxin was done a couple weeks ago, I started him on Recovery EQ.

So finally, today I rode him for the first time, and he proceeded to hop , hop, hop, just has he had before. His gate is significantly better, he can trot and canter without wanting his nose on the ground, but he still wants to hop into canter instead of trot. But even in the canter he is still not wanting to move forward. So of course, I am very sad for my boy. He is such a wonderful horse who is always so willing to please. I just can’t believe he’s not better after all this time.

I am waiting on a call back from my vet and hopefully tomorrow I can get him scheduled for a bone scan and more diagnostics. But I’m posting here because I guess I just need someone to talk to! I am so worried. Does anyone have any experience with anything like this with your horses? I’ve included links to some photos of his uneven shoulders and of him standing. Thanks for reading this long and lengthy post!! It's almost 3 am and I am headed to bed, but I will check first thing in the morning to see if anyone can help. Thanks!

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/DSC05334.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/DSC05346.jpg

[Beethoven]

He sure is pretty. I would look at his feet. He looks like he has a clubby foot on front left and a non clubby on front right. The differences in his feet may explain the difference in his shoulder muscling.

Good Luck with your boy. Thats the obvious thing that sticks out at me are his feet. I am sure others will weigh in.

[Loves to ride]

Is there any chance that you are at a barn where you could try other saddles to see if you notice a difference?

It really is crucial that the saddle fit correctly as SO many issues can be caused by even a slighlty incorrect saddle fit. Also, saddle fitting issues can take awhile to resolve.

I had 2 new saddles that were fitted to my horse and still very never quite right so now I'm riding in an old Jeffries that was my kick around saddle. It's not great for me but seems to be the best of the bunch for my horse (an OTTB with withers and very broad shoulders and back).

Good luck in figuring out what is causing your horses trouble!
He is CUTE! :yes:

[LKF]

Hi everyone!
For about the last 6 months, my horse has been having saddle fit issues that have led to something more serious in his back/shoulders. I’m wondering if any of you have any insights to what may be going on with my boy. He’s a 6 year coming 7 year old Hanoverian who is a successful 3rd/ schooling 4th level dressage horse. I first noticed his tight back sometime last February. I immediately called my saddle fitter and had them check it (it had just been fitted a few months before) and they restuffed/fitted it for me. They said it was shifting left, which I had felt. So after that, I thought things would get better. It did for awhile but then he began to feel tighter more often, maybe a couple times a week) but always worked out of it. I was lucky enough to be able to go to the World Cup last April in Las Vegas, and while I was there, I spoke in detail to one of the venders there, and ended up buying a custom made brand new saddle. They had me take pics, video, and have a tracing done so they could make this saddle for my horse. When I got the saddle in July, it needed some adjusting, and luckily their rep was coming through my area soon. I took him to her, and she fitted the saddle. Well, things were ok until about late November. He began to feel tight in his back again, but he still worked out of it quickly and would become lose and nicely over his back with a few times around the ring stretching nicely. But little by little, I began to notice he was slightly unwilling to go forward in medium and extended canter at times. There would be a small pause, and then he would go. Well, being the paranoid person I am, in mid December I drove my horse 6 hours to meet my fitter (it was the closest she would be to me for the next few months) and she fixed it again. We had no explanation as to why his shoulders were changing so much, but one was dramatically more developed than the other. The horse has always been very supple both directions and nice in the mouth. So she centered the saddle and I thought ok, it’ll get better now. But within a week, I knew I had a serious problem. At the beginning of my ride, he would try to pop into canter, then immediately stretch his neck down down down. He would continue to do this for a few times around the ring. Hop, hop, hop. He would be better after cantering, but always wanted to stretch as low as he could. I quite riding him immediately and called the vet. Please don’t slam me for not calling the vet when this all started, the signs were so tiny, and we (my trainer and many educated people at my barn) all thought it was saddle fit issue. But anyway, the vet found no signs of lameness while on the lunge. He’s completely even and tracks up nicely, engages his hindquarters nicely, is freely moving forward. No limb lameness has ever been seen at all. He’s totally happy on the lunge, but put a saddle on him on the lunge, he hops a little, but it’s better. Put a rider on him and he hops A LOT. But he’s always wanting to stretch his head down as far as he can. He seems to be the most comfortable this way. So the vet put him on Robaxin for a month, which he finished about 3 weeks ago. Over the course of the last 2 months, I have done chiro (she said he was tight in his back and his hind end was locked up a bit) Sorry, I don’t remember the exact terminology she used! But he got a nice adjustment, then I had him massaged, and he was very tight in the back still. I also did the Game Ready System on him twice daily for 2 weeks straight. It’s a dry cold massage therapy machine. Very cool! I also have been rubbing Sore No More on him twice a day. During this time I lunged him long and low, he stretches very willingly, to keep up some of his fitness. (Vet advised this) He’s on an herbal muscle relaxer as well that the vet prescribed. He is much looser in the back, you can see it as well as feel it. When the Robaxin was done a couple weeks ago, I started him on Recovery EQ. So finally, today I rode him for the first time, and he proceeded to hop , hop, hop, just has he had before. His gate is significantly better, he can trot and canter without wanting his nose on the ground, but he still wants to hop into canter instead of trot. But even in the canter he is still not wanting to move forward. So of course, I am very sad for my boy. He is such a wonderful horse who is always so willing to please. I just can’t believe he’s not better after all this time. I am waiting on a call back from my vet and hopefully tomorrow I can get him scheduled for a bone scan and more diagnostics. But I’m posting here because I guess I just need someone to talk to! I am so worried. Does anyone have any experience with anything like this with your horses? I’ve included links to some photos of his uneven shoulders and of him standing. Thanks for reading this long and lengthy post!! It's almost 3 am and I am headed to bed, but I will check first thing in the morning to see if anyone can help. Thanks!

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/DSC05334.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/DSC05346.jpg

Okay- here are a few ideas to consider. I'm an Eventer and ride a batch of different sized horses. The saddle that I use is a Bates with the CAIR panels and the inter changeable gullet systems. The saddle is very attractive looking, comfortable (to me), and has fitted every TB that I've put it on. The horses have ranged from 3 to 8 yrs. of age, from 15.2 hands to 17.1 hands, and at all stages of training and competition.

I also want to toss an idea out - we typically think that the issue is on 'top' rather than 'below'. Think about the girth and what it may be doing. Think about after you tighten the girst and start to walk off (in hand) and watch how the horse moves. Does he shorten his steps?
I had a horse who had difficulty breathing with a dressage girth on. The leather girth was squeezing his ribs and diaphram (did I spell that right?). Not only would his teps immediately shorten, but when I got on him, he would start hopping and bucking up.
I eventually purchased a girth especially designed to expand and contract with the horse's breathing. I also started stretching his legs (while tacked) before I mounted. It was an immediate improvement. The bucking up stopped and his walk steps lengthened.

If he is getting back sore, I treat it the same if my muscles were hurting. I bought a back pad from BACK ON TRACK that I stitched into a sheet. It is designed to heat the back, shoulders, rump muscles up. I put it on 1 to 2 hours prior to riding to heat up the muscles. It really works and is affordable.

[ChocoMare]

I'm gonna ditto Beethoven's suggestion about his feet. Those fronts look way too high. Could you possibly take a series of hoof shots for us?

Stand him on a level surface, preferably concrete or mats. Put the camera on the ground and take 4 shots of all four hooves. 1) Front/straight on; 2) Lateral side; 3) Medial Side and then 4) A Solar shot.

If those feetsies are out of balance, it will totally translate to the rest of the body as he tries to compensate.

[matryoshka]

From your description, I guessed he was developing a club foot. From the pictures, it seems like it, too. Esco Buff (you can find him on www.escobuff.com (http://www.escobuff.com)) has some good information about it. He calls it limb length disparity, and his theory is that it develops from a problem in the back (if it isn't there when the horse is a foal). If you can afford it, he'll fly out and evaluate your horse and come up with a shoeing package that may help (in conjunction with chiropractic work). He is a farrier, but he will work with your farrier so he knows how to continue the protocol. It is fascinating to watch him evaluate a horse. If you can't fly him out, you can ask questions on his web site.

I recently had an Equine Touch practitioner come and work on my OTTB. He had been 3-legged lame for weeks from a bad abscess high up inside a hind leg. His back was very different after the injury than it had been before, and my saddle no longer fit. After the Equine touch person worked on him, his back went almost normal (considering he hasn't been in work for a couple of months now), and he felt like the horse he'd been before the injury. I was a bit skeptical about the Equine Touch thing, but I was desperate to help my horse. All I can say is, WOW! You can find a list of practioners at www.equinetouch.org (http://www.equinetouch.org). I'm going to have the lady come back and work on all my guys one by one. Next on the list is a little rescue pony who is recovering from a bad case of Lymes.

[JB]

His LF certainly is much too tall, and the RF isn't - common "high-low" syndrome. I don't think the LF is clubbed at all, given how much slope there is to his pastern. See how the hoof/pastern angle is broken forward? Often, horses DO have one foot that is a bit more upright than the other, but just as often, farriers/trimmers see that and think the horse just has to have a higher heel, and pretty soon it gets higher, and higher, never being completely corrected each trim.

I think, unless the background is deceiving me, I see a hump right in front of his loin, which is often a sign of him protecting himself - goes along with the back issues.


So, as already mentioned, the first thing I'd address are his feet. If you can get radiographs of the 2, that would be very helpful.

[europa]

First I would start him on E and Selenium for any back issues.....helps immensely if he isn't already getting this. Great for the topline

Your previous saddle could have caused damage as mine did to my horse. Also, I agree with the post about him protecting his back and looking sucked up.....have his hind end/stifles check. You might want to consider EPM or something that would also present itself like this. I would have him gone over completely.

[jenkoby]

I'm with the others on checking the hooves. My farrier noticed that my mare was muscling
different in her shoulders when she was a long yearling. She has two completly different feet up front and has to be trimmed accordingly. The one that is more upright was the one that she always held back when grazing as a crazy-long-legged foal. I'm glad he caught that and we are able to address this as she is now riding age and being trained.

Your horse is very handsome by the way. I hope you find an answer soon.

[matryoshka]

I'm not insisting that he is developing a club foot, but the way his shoulders are is exactly what Esco describes for the development of high-low syndrome. The angle of the dorsal wall and heel on the LF is steep, which suggests that the limb is not stretching as long as the RF, so the foot is trying to compensate by getting taller. After examining the horse's structure, back, and how he walks, Esco first works on the hind feet. From that, he works on the front end. The owner must follow up with chiropractic work and/or massage as necessary. Supposedly, Esco has a reasonable success rate if his protocol is followed.

The OP could send these photos to him and at least get his opinion. He looks at the whole horse, not just the back and shoulder or the feet. This appears to be a whole-horse problem that needs to have multiple areas adressed at once so that he can improve all over.

I free-boarded a horse over the summer with similar issues, and I wanted to have Esco Buff come down and evaluate him. The horse arrived with a horrible shoeing package, and I tried to get him comfortable enough for chiropractic work before asking for Esco's help. I never could get him comfortable, and the owners moved the horse to Virginia to have Dr. O'Grady work on him. That was about when a huge abscess was growing out in his steep foot and the horse really needed shoes. I don't know what happened after that, but I hope the horse is now comfortable and back in work.

[wlrottge]

I couldn't read the whole original posts b/c it was not broken into paragraphs...

Have you had a chiropractor see the horse? We used one with great success. He did both chiro and aqua puncture and made a HUGE difference. I'm not talking anecdotal evidence, but measurable change in stride length, toe dragging and muscle.

[Rightlead]

Wow! You guys have some great ideas! I'll try to give as much info as I can. Yes, he does have a club foot, the left front has been that way all of his life. Can that really cause the shoulder's to develop so differently? I never thought of that! And is that considered "normal" for a club footed horse? I will take pics of his feet today and post them tonight for you all. Thanks!

I will talk to my farrier about these things, and will do whatever I need to do to get his shoeing right. He's a very well respected farrier in our area, and he shoes for a lot of people down in Wellington and West Palm Beach, so I have always believed he knew what he was doing.

I should mention something else that he has going on. I don't know why I didn't mention it before. But he has a crack in both rear feet. The right rear is only superficial, but the left is worse. It started at the center of the foot and worked its way up into the coronary band. My farrier has worked for months to stabalize the foot and try to get this thing to grow, but it won't move. He dremmeled it out and it stays nice and dry, so there is no infection in there or anything. And my horse has never taken a lame step at all. It's been very frustrating. My chiro suggested that my horse may have started moving and pushing off a bit differently to guard his pain in his back, thus creating the crack. Sigh.

I agree that the saddle could have just caused enough soreness that he needs more time off. I am anxious to get him in for further diagnostics just so I know where his pain is. This horse will get anything he needs to get better!

Yes, I have tried many saddles, he reacts badly to all of them right now. The saddle that I had made for him sat very high on his back and had lots of padding. The saddles he seems to like best are more flat and lighter. He liked the Passier grand gilbert and the relevant. He didn't hop as bad with those, but regardless, he's still sore, so it's hard to accurately judge that right now.

I use a squishy wintec girth. He seems to be fine with that. He's never developed any rubs or raised areas (I pay close attention) :) I tried a county logic once and it rubbed his elbows raw :( and he doesn't seem to like leather girths at all.

I stretch his legs before and after girthing as well. He does like that! Especially the right front leg. He will practically go to sleep on my back if I hold it out long enough. Can anyone think of any significance of this? I have been thinking if his right shoulder hurts, it may just feel good.

Let's see, what else. Oh, he did have his teeth done about 2 months ago and they were very bad!! The rear molars on the right side were ripping up his mouth :( I had no idea. My chiro also suggested that pain in his mouth could have been a culprit for this as well.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Thank you all for reading and helping. :) My horse and I really appreciate it!

[Rightlead]

Yes, he does have a "hump" on his back in that photo. That pic was taken in the middle of all this mess, and it has now since smoothed out and his back is much looser. That's why I was so surprised yesterday when he still "hopped". His back seems so much more solid to the touch, no dipping or him moving away.

Also, this may be important too! Don't know why I didn't mention this. But when he was a baby (we've had him since he was a yearling) He was very low in front and VERY high in the rear. Everyone called him a sliding board! So as he grew, he developed a roach in his back , but this has now basically gone away. (he's about 17.1 now) You can see it a little when he raises his back to poop, but for the most part, it is gone. Do any of you think this could be a significance?

[murphyluv]

I think you need to find someone who knows how to treat (much better word than "correct", thank you JB) a club foot through trimming, not shoeing. maybe he also needs more time off.
ditto the equine touch practitioner. Could also try osteopath- janek something or other. I know there was a thread of him on here recently.
And also a suggestion, break your original post (you can click on "edit" to do so) into smaller paragraphs so more people read this and help you.
Good luck, he's a cutie!

ETA: here is the thread on Janek.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=124946&highlight=janek

[Sulta]

This is probably a long shot, but I just went thru a similar process with my pony. New saddle, seemed fine for awhile. Then got back sore, then started rearing and refusing to trot /move out. On a lunge line was much better, would move out, trot and canter. Most days would show no lameness at all. Under saddle would barely trot. We all assumed it was a saddle issue or that he pulled something playing in the field.

We tried massage, accupuncture, chiropractic, several weeks of no riding, new shoes, different saddles/no saddle. After the accupuncture/massage, he got worse.

Then we theorized lyme disease, and put him on doxicycoline (sp?). A week later, he was back to himself. We did not get a lyme test at the time, due to timing/labs being closed, so I'll never know for sure. We had tested him about 6 weeks earlier and he was negative at that point. Now he looks better than he has in months.

[JB]

I think you need to find someone who knows how to correct a club foot through trimming, not shoeing.
There is no "correcting" a truly clubbed foot - it's all about managing it. Only xrays can prove a truely clubbed foot. Shoes are almost incidental in the management, with the trimming being the key. Some feet DO need shoes to be their best, particularly when there is a conformational defect.

OTOH, if this is "clubby" due to incorrect trimming, then things CAN be "corrected", though how much, and how long it would take, all depend on what's going on inside the foot.

[matryoshka]

Rightlead, you can find some good articles discussing "club" feet on www.horseshoes.com (http://www.horseshoes.com) in the articles section. If he's had it since he was young, then it may be best not to mess with it unless that person has researched it thorougly. They can be made worse through poor shoeing and/or trimming, but correction? I don't know. I do know of a rider who really wanted to "correct" the club foot on her horse, and all her efforts made him less sound.

Dr. O'Grady (you can google him) also has some articles on this, and Esco Buff has a book out about his limb length disparity theory. There is a lot of controversy about how to treat club feet, so you may come across some conflicting information if you start researching it. If your horse was sound with the foot before, then it may not have much to do with the current problem. But yes, shoulders like those go along with club feet. In a "clubbed" foot, the coffin bone is rotated down, so the foot ends up being shorter from heel to toe (ground surface) and the dorsal wall becomes very steep. If the farrier is trying to make that toe as long as the other, then he is basically creating a foundered type hoof. I believe that Esco Buff's protocol tries to get the front legs more even so the need for the higher foot lessens.

I can't help with the saddle issues. I don't think you should change farriers unless you are absolutely sure that the soreness originates from the hoof problems. It's hard to keep good farriers, and the good ones are worth their weight in gold. ;)

I came across a pad that costs maybe $300 that tells you where the pressure in your saddle goes. It's basically filled with a Play-Doh like substance. You put it under your saddle and ride like normal. If I can find the link, I'll post it. Otherwise, you might be able to find it yourself and see if you think it will help you figure out what is going on with him.

[Simkie]

This is a sort of "out of left field" thing, but it may help you until you can figure out what's going on.

My mare is sensitive and does not have a stoic bone in her body. She's gone through several periods where her back will be sore for whatever reason. What I've found is that hand walking *really* helps her. I take her outside and walk fast enough that she's really striding out, and we'll go a couple times around the 40 acre pasture. If I do this daily, her back goes from "do NOT touch me!!!" sore to not sore at all in a couple days. It really helps her. Maybe it would help your guy, too?

[Rightlead]

Sulta, I would be interested to hear more about this! I have no experience with Lyme Disease in horses. Did the vet give you any inclination why your horse was sore only under saddle?

JB, you are right, my horse's foot is a truly club foot. He was born with it. My farrier strongly disagrees with changing the natural balance of the foot to "correct" it. But here are some pics I took today of his feet. They scare me a bit! They don't look this odd in real life! I see his toe is way too long in the club foot.

Sorry about the mulitple links, I can't figure out how to share an album without the link putting the viewer into my account. Odd. So anway, here they are:

He has been on the loading dose of farrier's formula for 4 months, that's the new growth you can see in the pics.

Right Front
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/DSC00370.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/DSC00369.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/DSC00368.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/DSC00367.jpg

Left Front
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Left%20Front/DSC00374.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Left%20Front/DSC00373.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Left%20Front/DSC00372.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Left%20Front/DSC00371.jpg

Left Rear (I know this crack looks terrible!)
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Right%20Rear/Left%20Rear/DSC00375.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Right%20Rear/Left%20Rear/DSC00376.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Right%20Rear/Left%20Rear/DSC00377.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Right%20Rear/Left%20Rear/DSC00378.jpg


Right Rear (The hole you see is where some of the filling came out of the crack)
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Right%20Rear/DSC00380.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Right%20Rear/DSC00381.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Right%20Rear/DSC00382.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Right%20Rear/DSC00383.jpg

And here is a pic of the pad he has on both rear foot (to stablize the foot so this crack will grow out)
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/rightlead/Right%20Front/Right%20Rear/Left%20Rear/DSC00384.jpg

[Rightlead]

Matryoshka, thank you for the link. I will obsess myself in it!!! I do admit that the foot does have a "foundered" look to it. Especially near the time he's due for being shod. And I agree that it's not always best to change farriers, he has never been shod by anyone else, and he's never had any problems with anything in his body until now.

Simkie, that is interesting. Because he does like to walk with a very long stride! He's gotten a 9 for his walk a few times :) And now, he even more so likes it. (I notice it on the lunge) The longer his strides are, the better forward he seems to be.

[JB]

Ok, hopefully someone with more club/upright foot experience can help me out here, but on the LF I don't see a club foot, or at least nothing that would be more than mildly clubbed/upright. I do think I see a foot that is too upright/tall heeled for what it is supposed to be.

On the RF, I see a common problem - long toe, underrun heel. The heel of the foot, shown by the back of the shoe, is way too far forward.

The hinds aren't as bad, but the LH is funky - convex on the outside, starting to be concave on the inside. Whether an unbalanced trim is causing his foot to start leaning out, or something in his conformation is predisposing him to this deal, I'm not sure. Doesn't look comfy either way. My guess is the inside high wall is causing or exacerbating whatever issue might already be present. The inside on the RH is high as well. It's entirely possible that the cracks, which are just lateral of middle, are being caused by the inside-high situation. If that's the case, no amount of patching/stapling/etc will fix it - only balancing the foot will.

[murphyluv]

I'm definitely not an expert, but what JB says makes sense to me. RF looks like a horse we had in for rehab who had a resection done to correct the heel. (he had other problems with that foot, but the underrun heel wasn't helping).
I know it's hard to find a good farrier, and when you find one you want to stick with him, but it might not hurt to get a second opinion. Worked for someone who had a horse with a major quarter crack that went on for several months, same farrier had been doing her for years. Supposed to be the best in the area. new farrier came in and it started to grow out..
Don't want to place any blame or diagnosis, but just a thought bubble.

[El Tovar]

Really, I would not go the bonescan, new saddle route yet.

I would absolutely get a NEW FARRIER in and BALANCE the feet-this is not your fault, but if all 4 feet are unbalanced, the horse WILL get a sore back.

Anything other than addressing the feet-I believe is a bandaid at this point.

I think he has plenty of foot for you to ge t him back.....he needs heel support on all 4's and really, just balance.

If the foundation (feet) is uncomfortable-the whole horse will be.

[MassageLady]

His withers just don't look right to me, and in the pic from behind, his shoulders look uneven-unless it's just the way he's standing.
If the chiro/massage have cleared him for pain, then my guess is it's his 'memory' that is creating the problems. He's had these problems for a year, and just because it might not be there, doesn't mean he will forget it. Even with us, if we would be in pain-let's say our ankle-for a year, then we found someone to 'fix it' for us...we would still limp and protect that ankle. Because we wouldn't want that pain to come back. He could be doing that.

[wlrottge]

Ok, so this one is so out in left field, but... have YOU been to a chiro to be checked? The only reason I say this is b/c my step sister who is an equine chiro SWEARS that horses and riders tend to share back ailments. If you're out in the lower back, the horse is likely to be as well. (it's a shot in the dark I know, but she swears there is a trend there)

[Rightlead]

wow, do you guys really think his feet are that bad? All of this is such a nightmare! I was looking at the left front pic, and realizing that yeah, it doesn't look as clubbish as it used to. The angle of the hoof used to be a lot straighter. When I take him for more diagnostics, I'll have them look at his feet closely. I still want to take him in because he is in pain somewhere, and even if the feet have caused it I want to treat his pain as well as his feet.

Massagelady, I have considered muscle memory, but I just don't know! He hopped so much and I did give him about 10 minutes under saddle to see if he'd get better. He did a little after cantering, but that was accompanied by his head and forehand going down to stretch. And yes, his shoulders are asymerical, that's one of the main things I am worried about. Some posters have said it could be because of the high low angles of his feet, which could definetely be it!

My chiro and massage therapist said he was painful in the back, but he is much better now. His pain under saddle was a total surprise to me :( To this extreme, anyway. I lunged him today again and he's great! Freely moving (although a bit lazy today) and sound as he can be. Both directions.

Also, I believe someone mentioned it somewhere, but does anyone think this could be EPM? I will of course have him analyzed for this but the university can't get him in for another 2 weeks. He has stumbled a few times here and there, but nothing major. Just a stray stumble sometimes. I do think his center of gravity has shifted to his forehand, this horse used to be very uphill! but I just don't know. I have been advised (by a friend) to treat him for EPM regardless, but I am afraid to do this if he does not have it. Any opinions on this?

Wlrottge, actually, no I haven't. Not lately. I did that for many months last year and it did wonders for my sore lower back (old injury). I should probably go again. But I really hope I didn't make my horse this sore! But I certainly believe in the possibility. This is all so hard!

Thanks! You guys are great!

[Kit]

RightLead - DO get someone else to balance his feet. Speak to your farrier first though and tell him you're having these problems. See what he says. Honestly, so much happens from there. Imagine the strain on his body if his feet are out of kilter and especially doing the level you are doing. Even if it's just to get another opinion. I agree with the other opinions of under run heel - not an expert but have had similar problems myself.

[JB]

Nothing sticks out at me to say EPM. Sure, you can treat him, it's expensive, but it just doesn't sound like it. I COULD buy the Lyme though, so I would definitely have him tested for that, if for no other reason than to rule it out.

It's clear he's hurting somewhere. You might want to seriously consider having his back xrayed to look for kissing spines.

Regardless, I'm SURE hotspots will show up on his back. But that alone doesn't tell you anything ;) You are likely just starting to peel the onion now - fix one thing and open the way for something else to become the "new" ouchie until you can fix all the layers.

And, as others have indicated, it really has to start with his feet.

[ChocoMare]

Ok, hopefully someone with more club/upright foot experience can help me out here, but on the LF I don't see a club foot, or at least nothing that would be more than mildly clubbed/upright. I do think I see a foot that is too upright/tall heeled for what it is supposed to be.

On the RF, I see a common problem - long toe, underrun heel. The heel of the foot, shown by the back of the shoe, is way too far forward.

The hinds aren't as bad, but the LH is funky - convex on the outside, starting to be concave on the inside. Whether an unbalanced trim is causing his foot to start leaning out, or something in his conformation is predisposing him to this deal, I'm not sure. Doesn't look comfy either way. My guess is the inside high wall is causing or exacerbating whatever issue might already be present. The inside on the RH is high as well. It's entirely possible that the cracks, which are just lateral of middle, are being caused by the inside-high situation. If that's the case, no amount of patching/stapling/etc will fix it - only balancing the foot will.

DITTO! Those front feet are so uneven and out of balance with each...no wonder horsey hurts :(

[MassageLady]

Massagelady, I have considered muscle memory, but I just don't know! He hopped so much and I did give him about 10 minutes under saddle to see if he'd get better. He did a little after cantering, but that was accompanied by his head and forehand going down to stretch. And yes, his shoulders are asymerical, that's one of the main things I am worried about. Some posters have said it could be because of the high low angles of his feet, which could definetely be it!
Well, if his shoulders are off, then he WILL have problems! Until it is fixed, he's not going to change...whether it's from the hoof, or the shoulder. What does the chiro say???
Can you ride him in a completely different saddle once you get that fixed? Do something completely different with him! he must not be reminded of the past pain.

[CookiePony]

...do you guys really think his feet are that bad?

I'm afraid so. And, unfortunately, these kinds of imbalance problems are not uncommon, given what I've seen IRL and in photos on this board.

I agree with JB's critique and will add that I think both hinds have underrun heels.

... He has stumbled a few times here and there, but nothing major. Just a stray stumble sometimes. I do think his center of gravity has shifted to his forehand, this horse used to be very uphill! but I just don't know.

Again, start with the feet. If he is landing toe-first that will predispose him to stumbling.

[europa]

Get a thinline pad (I swear by them) and work on his feet. Do you give him a good Biotin supplement to help his hooves?

What is his breeding? Just curious

[JB]

I actually would not ride this horse again until such time as physical issues can start to be worked through. Something "bad" has caused such a huge shoulder imbalance, and I wouldn't even think of getting on again, regardless of saddle or no saddle, until some groundwork can start to even things out (once physical causes are worked on, of course).

The quality of the hoof looks to be quite nice, it's just the form that sucks, so IMHO, any "hoof supplement" is not an efficient use of money at this point.

[El Tovar]

Horse does not look like EPM-seen many a EPM horse....NOT this horse.

I look at feet every day as a part of my job as an Equine Touch and Holistic Horsecare practitioner. If the feet aren't right, nothing in the body will be right. I require my clients to have balanced feet or my work will not stick more than 2 hours.

REALLY, PLEASE believe us here, the feet are the foundation for the rest of the horse-they HURT-they are all out of balance, that will throw the shoulder out, the back out, the wither out, etc. NOTHING in his body can be in balance with feet that far out of balance.

There are many hoof experts on this BB....and really and truly, please oh please get the feet re-done...by someone else.

You can chase symptoms and pain for years on this kind of horse-but they will not be any more than bandaids. the scan will indeed as JB said see hotspots-but its no surprise because he probably has hotspots all over his body because the whole body has chronic inflammation because of feet.

Yes he should recieve GOOD TALENTED bodywork when this is all unfolding, but that will not cure him, neither will supplements or pads or saddles. Fixing the feet the right way, will give you far more results.

Massage and Chiro WILL NOT FIX this horse-but if you get the feet right-you need those people as support-adjustments will hold if he has a good foundation of support and no foot pain.

I agree-get your own back checked-that happened to me and my horse-both of our hips were out-causing eachother's problems to be exaggerated.

[europa]

As my vet likes to tell me 90% of lameness issues are in the foot. That reminds me to concentrate on the feet.

Fix his feet first with an accomplished blacksmith. I didn't mean to suggest riding him until he is fit and back in business.

[EqTrainer]

Please, PLEASE get a highly qualifed massage therapy person out to see your horse. He has all the symptoms of minor nerve damage in his shoulder, right down to the more upright foot. This will NOT go away without help; with the right work it could start resolving immediately. If it is not fixed he will continue to deteriorate.

When it is subtle like this, it often gets missed. I had to show my vet on one of our horses :( then she "got" it, so it's not something they get taught.

Where are you located? I know of an excellent person in Georgia who could work on him and understands the problem, otherwise, I am not sure of who does that type of work.

To everyone who wants her to fix his feet - YES, she will have to lower that heel and keep it low but it must be done carefully.. it is contracting due to other forces higher up.. and if you just lob it off, you could damage him more. Shoes are not an option in cases like this as trimming needs to be done every other week or so. BUT.. REALLY... just fixing his feet WILL NOT FIX HIS SHOULDER.

[El Tovar]

the chicken or the egg?

Eqtrainer, nice theory, however, don't you think it's possible that the uneven pressure on all 4 feet, has caused this horse tremedous compensation patterns-showing as the uneven shoulder....and the pinched nerve that you see?

[EqTrainer]

the chicken or the egg?

Eqtrainer, nice theory, however, don't you think it's possible that the uneven pressure on all 4 feet, has caused this horse tremedous compensation patterns-showing as the uneven shoulder....and the pinched nerve that you see?

At this point it doesn't really matter, as you will have to treat both parts of the horse regardless.

Since we have not seen how the foot has developed, or how the shoulder has developed over time, we cannot say.. but I can say that just fixing the feet will be impossible without working on the shoulder EVEN IF the feet caused it.. the heel will continue to contract and become more upright, forcing more weight onto the other foot and running it down. This is one benefit of being a trimmer AND a dressage trainer AND a body worker (although I have given most of that up to my partner now).. you get to see all sides of it as it is unfolding.

Besides a really good PT person who understands the shoulder, someone who can get on the horse and truly straighten it and get the weight off the other shoulder could also do a lot of good. However.. most riders do not have the skill set to do this and will instead perpetuate the problem. Indeed, the horse does now have muscle memory of moving this way and will ideally be taught how to move differently as his bodywork progresses.

My very good farrier told me once, "Ok, now I have fixed his feet.. now YOU have to ride him into soundness". Smart man.

[El Tovar]

we are on the same page, well stated, as always, EqTrainer!! wish I had your farrier!!

[murphyluv]

I think you've gotten some very sound advice here. Feet and Bodywork!! I know it can be difficult, you probably like your farrier, and you don't know how he's going to react if you admit you want a second opinion. But do it for your horse. I'm sure in your area there are plenty of good farriers. Find someone who really knows how to balance a foot, or at least see if your farrier will work with someone else.

While the feet are getting taken care of, which it will take a while to adjust to the proper balance, DEFINITELY some good bodywork is in order, whatever path you decide for that. It's been going on long enough that his body probably isn't going to pop back immediately on its own without the two areas being addressed together.

Secondly, continue with the Sore-No-More and Recovery EQ. BIG thumbs up! You've made a lot of good effort here, but I think everyone else agrees that nothing else will work until you start to address the feet.
Good luck and remember we're all here for support!!

[vanheimrhorses]

i have had horses move tight and it is the girth not the saddle and when I switched to an expensive made cord girth they moved out perfect, I would try one of those as it frees up the girth and shoulder area and then of course the back

[vanheimrhorses]

make sure it is the expensive kind of string girth that is soft not hard material

[Sulta]

You can read more on the BB on Lyme symptoms, but one of the common ones is intermittent or unexplained lameness. Sensitivity on skin, to touch to brushing, etc.

We have a high incidence of Lyme where I live (eastern PA), so it is fairly common in the area, and we know the pony was bitten by deer ticks.

In my case, the treatment was inexpensive and non-invasive, so it was worth the experiment. The test is not expensive and may be worthwhile to rule it out.

But = given the additional information, I'm not sure it's the most likely scenario in your case.

[jn4jenny]

I am not a vet, nor am I a farrier, but I gotta say...I agree with El Tovar. If my horse's four feet all looked so different from each other and I'd had my farrier for any length of time, I'd be calling another farrier pronto. It may certainly take a chiro/massage person to straighten the horse out above the feet, but if the feet aren't balanced, anything the chiro or massage person does will just revert back over time.

[rhymeswithfizz]

Wow... I am far, far from an expert, but those front feet don't even look like they belong to the same horse.

[goldponies]

I have a horse that could be yours. Had excellent success with Recovery (thanks to this board) and a new farrier. First thing was the feet. My horse had unbalanced feet. Used a new farrier and it took a year but her feet are perfect now. Also had my vet do acupuncture on her, that was every two weeks for about 3 months. Then on Recovery which I use a loading dose every time. We keep her back always warm, feet trim every 5 weeks and have had no back problems for over a year! Good luck.

[Rightlead]

Hi everyone!

Thanks again for all of your input. I am in complete agreement about his feet. I am going to have him analyzed at a very well reputable clinic that my trainer uses for her FEI horses. Just a few months ago, she took 3 of her horses there and all of their feet had a complete overhaul. the horses are going very well, now, so yes, I am convinced about my poor boy's feet. The team of vets from that clinic are temporarily working in Florida right now for the winter circuit, but I am going to contact them on Monday and see how I can organize getting my boy to them and getting all this work (from the toes up!!) :) started.

Until they can see him (hopefully within a few weeks) I am going to keep doing what I'm doing. Lunging to keep him fit (he's comfortable without tack) and using sore no more. He's got another chiro appointment soon.

Massagelady, it is odd but the chiro didn't express any concern about his shoulder, in fact my massage therapist said his shoudlers were extremely loose! the loosest part on him! But his hindquarters were locked up she said. (not sure the exact terminology) And his neck was a bit tight at the poll.

Eqtrainer, I did have a very well reputable massage therapist come see him, and she didn't say anything about a pinched shoulder. Can you elaborate more about what makes you think this? I'm open to anything!

I am excited about the thought of making changes to his feet. I have been unhappy about these cracks, and I think a new set of eyes will be so helpful for that and the other issues.

No, I won't be riding him at all, not until he is a balanced ,comfortable, happy boy. Riding is the least of my concerns right now :)

Thanks you all for your input! I have lots to absorb, and when I get him moving along with the many changes I see coming for him, I will post and let you all know how he's doing!

Thanks again!!

[horsechick]

I went through the exact same thing with my guy minus the foot issues. The other thing to remember is that if there is significant muscle damage, it takes AGES for that to go away. In that time NO saddle will feel good to him. My saving grace was....bareback. UGH. I literally worked my hunter bareback every day for 3 months, and I got so much accomplished! He was like a different horse in 30 minutes and we BOTH were much straighter and more balanced. Saddles are like shoes- technically they may "fit" but might not be the "right" one. Bates is a good idea to try too-the air seems to alleviate pressure points. I use it on a horse I have in training, and after I'm done, he doesn't even sweat under the panels. Good luck!

[DesignerLabel]

As a massage therapist, I see a lot of horses that are free in the shoulder but still have tightness and lack of forward motion. I'll try to explain better. When I state that a horse is loose in the shoulders, typically I am referring to good tone along the scapula and also where the neck ties to the scapula. I like to be able to get my hands under the scapula in a relaxed and loose manner. However, the same horse may be tight or "pinched" at the top of the shoulder, i.e., in the muscles along and just below the withers. There are a series of pressure points approximately 3 inches below the top of the withers that commonly can be very tight and/or painful. Also, the trapezius muscles can cause a shoulder to have shortened motion. None of this is the shoulder per se, but all can affect the motion of the shoulder.

Also, I have been called out to work on horses more times than I can say with back or shoulder issues that have their feet out of balance. However, most owners don't want to hear that because ol' Bubba's been shoeing their horses for 20 years. Oh well, keeps me in business!

Liz

[asterix]

OP, what part of the country are you located in? There is a farrier clinic I know of who are real miracle workers -- the super duper lameness practice in the area often refers out to them...this is in VA...

[matryoshka]

Upon looking at the new pics posted, I don't like how the farrier is shoeing your horse, either.

Usually, the heel of the shoe should extend back so that one can draw a line down from the center of the fetlock to the back of the shoe. This is not happening for this horse. Did your horse pull shoes a lot so the farrier wanted to keep them on longer? If so, he's making the underrun heel worse.

On the LF, it does look like a typical "club" to me. However, the farrier has left very high heels, and this is not necessary. The frog is way up there, possibly recessed, and I can see a deep crease going up the back of the heel. The farrier can easily find out how much heel to safely remove by looking for live sole at the seat of corn. To trim beyond that can cause soreness. I'll bet the foot is too concave and may have retained (false) sole as well. This could be why the farrier has let it get so tall, especially if he's shoeing with a "business as usual" attitude and not really looking at and evaluating the foot. You can help your horse by treating his center sulcus with mastitis treatment (for cows--I buy it at Tractor Supply). Clean out the center sulcus and squeeze some mastitis treatment in there every day. That may improve the health of the frog.

Hinds also look way too long to me. Heels of shoes are fit pretty tight, which tends to contract the heels. When the heels contract, the sole doesn't shed as easily and you could end up with too long a hoof that looks just fine from the bottom. I deal with this on a regular basis with new clients whose horses have contracted heels. I don't pry off the false sole but trim in a way to help the heels decontract. Once they open up a bit, the false sole usually pops off on its own and I can then work on improving the overall hoof balance. Just saw major progress on a horse with this condition yesterday. She's stopped stumbling, too. :D

Do you have any pics of the feet from before the back problem started? If the LF has been getting taller, then that could explain the changes in the back and shoulder. You can see the problems in the shoulder in the original pic you posted from the horse's left side.

I still recommend you send these pics to Esco Buff and see what he says. I'm a trimmer, so I can only tell you so much about shoeing. He's a farrier who is also a qualified chiropractor and has researched founder and high/low syndrome. You are going to run into articles that refuse to call high feet clubs, because it isn't a bone issue. Semantics aside, it is what we commonly call a club foot. I've seen and trimmed quite a few. They don't have to be as high as what your horse has.

If you want a good evaluation by experienced farriers, you could post the all the photos on www.horseshoes.com (http://www.horseshoes.com). If you choose to do that, be careful not to disrespect your current farrier, because they are very defensive of farriers. The photos are likely to spark an argument, but you can get some really good information as long as your skin is thick enough. There are some very good farriers who routinely post over there and they can give you some excellent advice. Go to the "Farriers Helping Horseowners" Forum and look for the place where club feet are mentioned. You might want to give a brief account of your horse's back soreness and say that some people have suggested imbalances in the feet might be a contributing factor. Ask what they think about the feet and whether changes could/should be made to help your horse. I hesitate to send anybody over there, because they can be rough on horse owners. Just keep your cool and it should be fine.

You could also PM hoofrx1 and ask him privately to look at the feet. His name is Rick Burten and he's a very experienced farrier.

[criss]

Looking at those feet....yikes. Not just that the feet are all different from one another and that that one hind foot has the inside jacked up so much higher than the outside (though those are of concern as well). What I see: Your horse needs to be in shoes a size larger all the way around, with the heels extended out a little farther as Matroshka said (and if that means bell boots 24/7, oh well).

The LF, in addition to the clubbiness and extra height already noted, looks like the weight-bearing surface is out in front of the rest of the foot. That S-curve to the front of the hoof wall tells me that there's probably some deformation of the hoof capsule (I don't think I'm explaining this right, since I'm not a farrier, but I've seen it and had it explained to me in my own horse). It's as if the shoe needs to be set 1/2" farther back under the hoof so it mirrors the coronet band instead of being off center to the front.

The helpfully white hind feet look terribly bruised. This could just be the color in the pics and dirt on his feet, but both of them look like they have substantial purplish areas on the walls. What that means, I'm not qualified to say, except that again, it seems to imply that there's some deformation and pulling going on inside the structures of the hoof.

All that said, I'm not a farrier, I'm just going on what I've seen in my own horse that I see in yours.

And he's just gorgeous! I hope you get it figured out soon.

[goeslikestink]

Okay- here are a few ideas to consider. I'm an Eventer and ride a batch of different sized horses. The saddle that I use is a Bates with the CAIR panels and the inter changeable gullet systems. The saddle is very attractive looking, comfortable (to me), and has fitted every TB that I've put it on. The horses have ranged from 3 to 8 yrs. of age, from 15.2 hands to 17.1 hands, and at all stages of training and competition.

I also want to toss an idea out - we typically think that the issue is on 'top' rather than 'below'. Think about the girth and what it may be doing. Think about after you tighten the girst and start to walk off (in hand) and watch how the horse moves. Does he shorten his steps?
I had a horse who had difficulty breathing with a dressage girth on. The leather girth was squeezing his ribs and diaphram (did I spell that right?). Not only would his teps immediately shorten, but when I got on him, he would start hopping and bucking up.
I eventually purchased a girth especially designed to expand and contract with the horse's breathing. I also started stretching his legs (while tacked) before I mounted. It was an immediate improvement. The bucking up stopped and his walk steps lengthened.

If he is getting back sore, I treat it the same if my muscles were hurting. I bought a back pad from BACK ON TRACK that I stitched into a sheet. It is designed to heat the back, shoulders, rump muscles up. I put it on 1 to 2 hours prior to riding to heat up the muscles. It really works and is affordable.

i go along with this and will also say-- if you using an elasticated girth or a girth with ends that are elasticated please be carful when using one as if you happen to do the girth up an extra notch - in comparison to a leather or cottage craft padded girth - the leasticated ones dont give- in other words when you tightening the girth it can cut of the blood supply to the horse- making off-- bit like having a rubber band round your wrist -

[goeslikestink]

His withers just don't look right to me, and in the pic from behind, his shoulders look uneven-unless it's just the way he's standing.
If the chiro/massage have cleared him for pain, then my guess is it's his 'memory' that is creating the problems. He's had these problems for a year, and just because it might not be there, doesn't mean he will forget it. Even with us, if we would be in pain-let's say our ankle-for a year, then we found someone to 'fix it' for us...we would still limp and protect that ankle. Because we wouldn't want that pain to come back. He could be doing that.


agree with this statement to-- he needs a saddle as he has hollow withers -- as i hate to say this his conformation isnt that great - so his schoulders dont have a nice sloop to them-
so the saddle would actual have to sit behind the withers more so which in turn is behind the girth area --

what you might need is - a wintec griffen which is a syfectic saddle with an adjustable gullet and cut out wither section bit like a U shape so fits aorund the withers and not on top of the withers in the normal way

[goeslikestink]

DITTO! Those front feet are so uneven and out of balance with each...no wonder horsey hurts :(


echo this statement-- out loud-- as this is the major problem of the horse so much so his feet are brusing on the hind -- feet it wall of foot - but not only that-- up his legs as well so something inst balanced as presssure points are showing-- hence the crack in the walls of the hind feet

front aare so miss mashed-- and unneven- so the whole cant be centrally balanced and find the work difficult- along with his conformation the saddle will also have a difficult job to fit a saddle to the horse-- like i said he has hollow withers

[jack mac]

Find a better farrier your horses feet are to long & contracted no wonder his struggling on the sand.

[luckles]

agree with this statement to-- he needs a saddle as he has hollow withers -- as i hate to say this his conformation isnt that great - so his schoulders dont have a nice sloop to them-
so the saddle would actual have to sit behind the withers more so which in turn is behind the girth area --

what you might need is - a wintec griffen which is a syfectic saddle with an adjustable gullet and cut out wither section bit like a U shape so fits aorund the withers and not on top of the withers in the normal way

Goeslikestink...I happen to strongly disagree with you when you say that this horse doesn't have nice confirmation. What exactly do you not think is good confirmation??? Please elaborate.

[juniormom]

I'm no expert either, but we had a horse that we went through this sort of thing with. Your horse doesn't look like an EPM horse either. Generally, we were always told if you truly suspect that, go ahead and treat it, as the test can be very unreliable and expensive as well. The bone scan is something else that is expensive and we used, as we thought our horse had OCD of the shoulder. He didn't. Then, we had him checked for ulcers. As it turns out, we were told most horses have ulcers at some point. The magnetic blanket really helped our horse some. He was young, as is yours.

I have heard really good things about the saddle pad that someone recommended. We have been told that a lot of the Olympic riders use them and can tell a huge difference.

I really think you need to have his feet relooked at and do the acupuncture/chiro route too. We actually used some small gold beads in our horse's back to hold the acupuncture sites. One thing that happened with our horse was that he was really smart and started doing things to "try to get out of work." He figured out if he limped, hopped, etc., we would put him away. So, be aware of that too. I really think you need to work on your horse's feet first though. Plus, as someone suggested, if your back is sore - you may be leaning towards one side or something and not realizing it. There are so many options and new shoeing techniques out there, that you are bound to find something to work. Also, as someone suggested - don't bash the farrier, as we know they are all "the best." You don't say where you are from, but there is one in particular in the Camden, SC area that is really good - not cheap - but good. Your horse may still be growing some too - who knows? He is beautiful! I know this is frustrating, but I am sure you will get it figured out. Good luck!

[JB]

like i said he has hollow withers

well of course he does, he's had a sore back and hasn't been able to properly use his topline in what seems like a long time.

[HappyHorsey]

Rightlead, I sent you a PM! :)

[outofthebox]

Underrun, crushed heels, long toe on the right front. Most definitely! Left front is sky high!

[MassageLady]

I didn't look at his hooves before-because I don't feel I'm anywhere near an expert on them...yet, I can easily see they are so different, no wonder this horse has problems! the right heel is much lower than the left, the horse is basically walking on a gym shoe and a high heel! No wonder the shoulder looks out to me!:yes: Fix the hoof, fix the problem.:yes:

[matryoshka]

As EqTrainer said (I think it was her), it is a whole-horse problem now. He does need to have his feet addressed, but that won't "fix" the problem all by itself. With body work and hoof care addressed in unison, he will hopefully improve rapidly. I don't know how long it will take for the muscles to adapt to the changes or to strengthen where they need to. He didn't get this bad over night, so he probably won't get better over night, either. Luckily, it sounds like RightLead has a team of people available to do it all. I'm looking forward to see how this horse improves once the whole problem is addressed.

[Rightlead]

My boy has his appointment on Feb 20th for his bone scan, from there we go to Ocala for the rest of the diagnosics. They have a farrier who works very closely with the vets (it is a big team!) And I have seen the results of his work and talked to the owners. His feet WILL be addressed. :)

There are also other farrier options I've been given by some awesome people on this board for after he comes home, thank you!! So I feel confident we are headed in the right direction. I promise to keep everyone posted on how this plays out.

Thanks!!!

[HappyHorsey]

Hi, Rightlead, how did it go?! I hope it was helpful! :)

[matryoshka]

I'd also love to know how things went.

[moribelle]

Have you wondered if it is coming from behind? I haven't seen the video as the others have, I'd like to look at it. Also, his shoulders could definitely be getting pinched. My mare's were, and she would park.
Moribelle

[HappyHorsey]

Have you wondered if it is coming from behind? I haven't seen the video as the others have, I'd like to look at it. Also, his shoulders could definitely be getting pinched. My mare's were, and she would park.
Moribelle

Hi, moribelle, do you mean the shoulders were pinched by the saddle? Or pinched by something that would need a chiropractic adjustment? Just curious. How did you resolve the soreness?

[twistedbranch]

try an equine chiropractor as well

[Rightlead]

Hi everyone!

Ok, the results are in of the bone scan. Basically, they found very little!!

The hot spots he had were mild to almost non mentionable!!! They saw some in his left front fetlock, which was to be expected with the slight soreness they noted on flexion yesterday when I brought him there. They said when that high upright foot is corrected, and a larger shoe put on and a little further back, that inflamation should go away quickly. :)

The other 2 spots were one on the right side of his sacrophiliac muscle, and near his left hip. But the vet said they were so insignificant he would hardly feel like they needed to be mentioned. And with his back being sore, it wasn't a surprise. Again, should resolve when the feet are resolved.

Nothing in the shoulder!!! They are thinking that his large shoulder is normal and his left is atrophied because of the high left front hoof. He's not using that whole hoof when he moves (you can really see it on the lunge on the cement in a small circle when they did did it at the University) So they think that once his feet are balanced he should start using both legs equally and develop more balanced shoulders.

As far as the cracks in the hind feet go, they suggested it's either a nutritional deficiency or that it's conformational. They said corrective trimming should relieve the pressure on his hooves.

It was good new to see him pass the lameness exam with flying colors, trotting up and down on cement, in circles, and the flexion tests showed nothing except for that little soreness in that fetlock. So all this is good to know. i know bone scans are not the say of everything, and this is why I'm not stopping there.

I will take these results with me now for the next phase. He'll get xrays and anything else my vet wants to do when I get him to the next clinic on march 4th. Then on to fix the feet!

Moribelle,

Yes, I do think his shoulders were getting pinched, this was a big concern of mine. Saddle fit will be difficult for my boy until his shoulders are more symetrical! And yes, we are considering every part of him, but the scan showed nothing in his hind feet, hocks, stifles, etc.

And what video are you referring to? I didn't post a video!! :) You must be thinking about another thread :)

Thanks everyone for being interested! And I promise to keep you posted as we move along. But I feel good tonight about things. That scan could have been a lot worse!

[murphyluv]

Yay! Glad things are going well and that you are getting things addressed. Good luck.

[silver2]

I used to ride a mare who had similarly uneven muscle development. It got worse as her training advanced. We evantually found out that she had gotten her neck stuck in a gate as a baby and had some nerve damage in there.

If that is not the issue and he were mine I'd get a new farrier. I'm not one to jump on bandwagons but I had incredible results using a guy who was into the imitating wild horse feet theory of shoeing. All of our horses were shod and he had no problem putting shoes on anything you wanted him to but he was extremely particular about making sure that the hoof tubules ran parallel and also about rounding the toes. Something about a4-point system?

Literally I had not one soundness problem ever when using him, and he salvaged several older performance horses for us. As a bonus they never threw shoes- ever!

[JB]

As far as the cracks in the hind feet go, they suggested it's either a nutritional deficiency or that it's conformational.
Really???

They said corrective trimming should relieve the pressure on his hooves. It's really a matter of correct trimming here :)

It was good new to see him pass the lameness exam with flying colors, trotting up and down on cement, in circles, and the flexion tests showed nothing except for that little soreness in that fetlock. So all this is good to know. i know bone scans are not the say of everything, and this is why I'm not stopping there.Did they use the words "flying colors"?

Everything sounds very interesting. I think you will start seeing great changes once you start getting the feet fixed. Just stay on top of things with chiro and massage, because I have a feeling you're going to start peeling the onion :)

Keep us updated! :)

[Rightlead]

Hi JB,

What they meant by conformational is something about the way his hoof is shaped. They used more technical words I don't remember but the gist of it is his hooves come to kind of a point in front and this can be because of how the bones are shaped inside the foot. They also said that the toe was also excessively long. And they said that "shortening the toe and floating the solar surface at the toe are the principles of management of this condition".

And yep, I agree! "Correct" trimming of course, not "corrective"! That was my misuse of the word.

And no, they didn't use the words "flying colors". That was me ;) (I always expect the worst, and I was afraid he would show lameness on the cement when they trotted him around). Some flare ups did show up during the bone scan in that left foot ( I said fetlock in my previous post but I got it wrong, sorry! It was the foot itself) and we will explore that further of course as we move along (xrays, etc.) But they felt that it might resolove itself once that foot was corrected, but of course, I didn't do x-rays there, so they wouldn't say that for sure, because they can't be sure without further diagnostics.

In any case, it went well and I will post again after Ocala!

[vanheimrhorses]

i would try an expensive soft string girth this has helped horses of mine tight in the shoulders and it was from girth pressure, also do stretch by pulling his tail, the only other thing to really help the back is swimming the horse in a straight pool where they are tied in place by their tail and a rope and this does wonders for the back

[matryoshka]

The cracks will likely grow out once the feet are balanced properly. Balancing hind feet can be tricky, and if your farrier was sleeping while doing the fronts, then goodness only knows how he was doing the hinds!

Keep us posted in the future as your horse's feet become more balanced.

Are you considering riding treeless for a while? I can't remember whether you had tried that. I know it isn't good for all horses or all riders, but maybe it is an option while he's getting his feet rebalanced.

[Rightlead]

Hi all!

I just wanted to give you all an update on my boy. After bone scan, xrays and an overhaul on his feet, my boy is on his way to full recovery. His feet look incredible with my new farrier(s) and he is moving better than I've seen him move in 3 years.

I cancelled my trip to Ocala, as it is no longer needed. I had 19 x-rays done on his feet/legs and they all look just fine. His joints and bones are great! My new farrier changed a lot of things with his shoeing, the main thing being getting that club foot higher with a leather pad and making his foot land where it is supposed to land. They discovered my horse was "reaching" for the ground with that left club foot, and never really landing at the right time during each stride, thus causing him to push off more with his right foot, leading to a large right shoulder and a small left one. This has been going on for so long, that the imbalances led to the saddle pinching his large shoulder and his back and everything else becoming sore.

My farrier changed a lot of things with his back feet as well to ease his breakover to help those cracks grow out. The feet simply look beautiful.

I will begin riding him again on Monday, as I am letting his body get used to this new balance. I have the chiro and message therapist scheduled as well, because I know this is a lot of change to my horse's body and he will be in need! But it is all for the better!

I will post an update on how our first ride goes. We will be taking it easy until we can get these shoulders more even and rebuild the muscle he's lost over the last 9 weeks. I have started the process with Trumbell Mountain Tack shop (they are just wonderful!) to get his new custom saddle built and on the way. So things are looking up!

Take care everyone!

:)

[JB]

That's wonderful news!

Any chance you could post new pictures of his feet after they get further along? :)

[Rightlead]

Sure, I can do that! But like you said, let me wait a little while because the feet aren't where my farrier wants them yet. :) So pics can be deceiving.

[HappyHorsey]

Yay! That is wonderful news, Rightlead! Amazing how much the feet can affect the body!

Let us know how the chiro and massage appointments go. As you might remember, I am also having issues with one of my horses, and now that we're working on her feet, I think I need to schedule the chiro/massage crew, too.

Also, I've heard great things about Trumbull Mountain, so good luck with the saddle search! :)

[matryoshka]

Chiming in with relief for you and your horse! It sounds like you went to a great farrier.

[EqTrainer]

? for you.. did your horse always have a club foot?

[Rightlead]

Yep, he has. It was much more evident as a yearling, though. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing! :) But he's always been more upright in that foot.