And than the vet bill came

[vpstevens]

:eek:

So I called the vet. It was 35 below and my horse had two blankets on and was shivering. Sounded a little loud breathing and was not eating well (although she was eating). I took her temp and yes, she had 103.5. She was starting to come down with the same thing that two other horses had. Starts with a sore throat and them the dry cough and finally the snotty nose and productive cough. Why I called on this mare and not the two previous is beyond me but I think it was that I could hear her breathing. The other two, although still with the snotty noses, were just fine.

So here comes the vet. He does not only culture the mare I called about but he cultures the other two also. I ask, should we put them all on SMZ's? He replys, I doubt that we will treat these two since they are over the worst of it but this one we will put on antibiotics. I have an antibiotic that taste better than SMZ's that we will use. It is called Enrofloxacin.

Well, one week later the vet bill comes. But first, the culture results as of so far are negative. No stangles, no equine Herpesvirus.

Now the vet bill. Over $500 not including any of the outstanding lab work. The antibiotic (Enrofloxacin Powder) cost $249.75.

Seriously, the horses have colds! Why wouldn't you say Hey, I have this really good tasting antibiotic but it is going to cost you your left arm. Want to try it!

I need to change vets! This is the same vet that charged me over $2000 to diagnose and unsuccessfully treat a case of scratches.

Do others have these issues????

Broke, and working to pay my vet bills:cry:

[Lookout]

That seems a tad excessive. Although having said that, the bill is dependent on services performed, not the diagnosis.

[amdfarm]

WOW, that seems really outrageous! I definitely think he should have told you the price of the antibiotic before offering it and stuck w/ SMZ's.

For what he charged for that visit, I could have had a mare ultrasounded, AI'd, a colt gelded and had a retained placenta taken care of, all w/ a trip charge included and probably some other things thrown in there, too. I'm lucky that my vet and his partner are very reasonable. But they're also a half hour away. We just don't have large animal vets around here anymore, which is sad considering we have a very nice vet college right here in the state, though most of them go into small animal practice or go out of state to practice. My own vet didn't even go to college here and he's from here. I knew him from before he went to college and no, he doesn't do me favors either.

$2k for scratches! GEEZ!! If they're around your area, I say find another and get references!!

Hope your mare feels better.

[grayarabpony]

Why on earth are the horses being put on antibiotics for colds anyway?

[Kit]

What a shocker! $500 for a visit?!! And exactly! Why didn't he tell you how much the different type of A/B was.... I'd be putting in call and doing a bit of a screecher. Mind you, my youngster cut his back leg - was about an inch long. Nicked his tendon. Had about 3 internal stitches and 4/5 external. Cost me $300!! Only cost about $150 to geld him!! Gone off that vet...

[FancyFree]

That's a lot. I recently got reamed by my small animal vet. $600 to spay a small dog. :eek:

I don't get why professionals gouge patients like this. After my vet gouging experience, I wrote two reviews about him on city websites. I'll only give my honest opinion of him, if I ever get the opportunity. Stupid.

[Ghazzu]

Gee. $600 for an ovariohysterectomy, including anesthesia?

Terrible ripoff.
Ask a hospital administrator what it would cost you if you had no insurance.

[amdfarm]

Why on earth are the horses being put on antibiotics for colds anyway?

I wondered this and was going to ask the same, but the mare did have a fever so could have been a bacterial infection instead of viral, so I let that slide since they were cultured and all. :winkgrin: Granted I probably would have given her some bute or banamine for the fever, but who knows.

FancyFree... OMG, $600 to spay a small dog! Dang!! My small animal vet (obviously different from my horsey vets) charged me $175 to front declaw both cats and spay the one (male had already been neutered) and they stayed over one night for observation. I thought that was reasonable.

[Lookout]

What a shocker! $500 for a visit?!!
Don't think so - $250 for the visit and $250 for the antibiotics.

[Buffyblue]

I think I would have appreciated a heads-up on the cost of the AB, but other than that, I don't think it sounds unreasonable.

[amdfarm]

The OP said it was over $500 and not including the outstanding labs yet. Yep, $250 for the A/B. But I don't see what the vet did for $250+ aside from culture the one he was called about and the other two that he was not there to see that were getting over their colds and more than likely wasn't asked to culture... per the OP were fine. Did he do a full exam, check her lungs, her temp himself and so forth? Enough to justify the cost, not just that it was super cold out because it's winter in Wisconsin? Or was it an emergency call making it a higher call and trip charge?

Don't know about everyone else, but my vet works for me and he doesn't just randomly go around and do as he pleases if I don't ask him to... not that he ever would. But he does ask if there's anything else he needs to do before he does leave because it's such a trip for him.

It is interesting to see what vets charge around the country though and how much it varies.

[blackstallion]

Another reason I love my vet. I had a weanling with snotty nose and a cough. He gave me a jar of expectorant, as he heard a lot of rattling in her chest, and it ran it's course in about 2 weeks.

You need an old fashioned, seen everything vet. It sounds like the vet you have now is charging you for his "on the job training".

[grayarabpony]

$250 for antibiotics is a total rip-off. The vet should have waited for a positive culture (including sensitivity) before starting antibiotics.

[chism]

I'd find a new vet. Seriously...
He should have discussed it with you... "This particular drug is expensive, but I think it's worth it" OR "You have a few options, let's talk about them". To get a $250 charge for an antibiotic is a kick in the gut to say the least, especially if another one would have done the job.
What I love about my vets.... they understand that with 8 horses I have to be frugal, but they also know that the best care of my horses is priority one, no matter what the cost. We discuss treatment & options together, then make a plan. FWIW...I just got a $400 bill yesterday so I feel your pain. ;)

[thumbsontop]

I had a $300 bill today for a similar issue. 103+ degree fever, but eating well. Weekend call meant $175ish just to come out. $90 for CBC/profile and a couple of extra vials just in case. $35 for SMZs just in case(which she thought would be just fine and recommended that I had on hand anyhow. Total came to $332.

Her feeling was pull the blood for the CBC - hold the rest and use if he doesn't show improvement with banamine. SMZs they didn't end up recommending because the banamine was helping him perk up (we only did a couple of low doses) She did not want to give antibiotics for nothing, and didn't want to run a bunch of tests unless he didn't show improvement.

I'll have to remember to ask antibiotic COST next time so that I don't end up in your shoes. :)

[J Swan]

I don't know if you need to find a new vet or not. But I have noticed that if I ask a lot of questions and be really (but hopefully not overly) involved in health care decisions, I can lower my vet bills a little.

I'm not assuming my vet is some sort of crook - far from it. I treat my vets like gold. I just ask a lot of questions, ask why an animal needs a particular medication over another, ask if I can buy bandaging material at the feed store rather than him/her charging me for their stuff,that sort of thing. If he/she is coming out, I'll take the opportunity to get other animals examined or stock up on meds. And I'll pick his/her brain.

Now that I think about it - I probably do drive my vet crazy. Never mind.



600$ sounds about right for a spay. Maybe a bit on the high side. It's too bad it costs so much. When I had a feral cat colony problem, I purposefully adopted out the female kittens I caught because even with low cost spay/neuter - there was no way I could afford that many spays. My vet came out and we held a mini neuter clinic on my kitchen table. That vet was a really good sport. Thank God I don't have problems with feral cats anymore. What a mess.

FancyFree- If spaying costs that much where you live, maybe you could work with your animal shelter to develop a low cost spay/neuter program. They're really successful and it's certainly a much needed service to the community. It wasn't that long ago that spaying and neutering were considered "luxury" operations. Very expensive.

[Tiger Horse]

that seems terribly excessive . . . more than enough reason to find a new vet. I switched several years ago from a vet I had used since he got out of vet school - got way too big for his britches, so to speak . . . I can understand having to make a living, but gouging long time loyal customers . . . hard decision to find someone else, but I love my new vet. He's always up front with charges and he doesn't do unnecessary stuff - straight forward and right to the point. . .

[kcmel]

I would definitely look elsewhere. I can't imagine my vet advocating such an expensive drug without mentioning the price. It sounds sneaky. You need to have a vet you can have an open dialog with. Start looking! And, btw, $600 does seem like a lot for a spay. My cat was about $100, and we aren't in a low cost area, by any means. Unless there is some basic difference between cats and dogs that I am missing?

[Auventera Two]

Do others have these issues????



No because I always ask EXACTLY what he's doing, why he's doing it, and what it's going to cost! He knows me by now and volunteers all the info up front. Am I a tight wad cheapskate? Yeah, probably. But too bad. I'll do whatever is necessary to ensure health and welfare but if it's something simple that I can't do anything about anyway - I skip it.

Last year my horses had a very mild mild case of strangles. I opted to go to the office and pick up a tub of SMZs. Total cost was around $90. I could have had him drive out, do a full exam on all 3, do swabs, lab work, etc. and have over $500. But really - it would have had to just run its course no matter what, so what was the point? As long as their temps were low and stable, they were eating and drinking, there were no absesses, and they appeared bright and alert, I wasn't going to spring for all the extras.

[Penthilisea]

Yep, I dropped the vet clinic I had been using not because they werent terrific but because when my vet KNEW I was a student with a small budget she decided injections would "fix" my gelding, to the tune of $975. Holy jesus! For fricking injections at my farm?!
I very calmly called the clinic and asked them to review the bill, "Oh all those charges are standard..." Ok thanks, buh-bye!
When a vet cannot understand or respect the fact that although you wish to treat your animal you have other financial resposibilites and they are profligate with your funds then they need to go work with the rich folks and leave me to my student loans.

[arena run]

Gee. $600 for an ovariohysterectomy, including anesthesia?

Terrible ripoff.
Ask a hospital administrator what it would cost you if you had no insurance.


Gee, when you spell it out like that they deserve the $600 just for knowing what it is!!! :) Although comparing a cat/dog spaying to a human tubal-type thing is probably not quite apples to apples. Our cat spays are $75.

My vet came out to the house and performed surgery on my mare for a slab of shoulder she had tried to shave off compliments of the guide wire on the light pole. The total charge was $150 and that included all the follow-up meds.

And it was on a Saturday morning, too. sylvia

[FoxChaser]

I would have appreciated a heads up on the antibiotics too- ouch!! As for my own vet, I LOVE him and think he is excellent, BUT... I received my bills from March through July all at once, due the end of December, then August through December the next month. Ugh!! Try explaining to your not-so-horsey husband why you have these exorbitant vet bills two months in a row (the second one had a pre-purchase exam with x-rays on it plus the routine stuff). Gotta love it that one item on our bill was for a nasal flush on my husband's horse that was performed on 12/31/06. Apparently whomever entered that one into the computer put '07 instead of '06, so we got billed a year late. I really don't know how the heck he manages to stay in business what with the horrible billing practices!! If he weren't so doggone good and cheap, I'd use someone else. I guess the billing isn't really his fault, though the hiring of the person who does the billing is. :(

[Ashby]

OMG, thanks for the heads up on the Enrofloxacin. My mare has been on it for a week and I had no idea it was going to cost anywhere near that much. And it's not working all that well for her recurrent forearm cellulitis, either. I haven't gotten a bill yet for the 3 farm calls, x-rays, and wound culture this has necessitated, but am dreading it--I'm a single mother and this is no picnic. If this bill is not into four figures I'll faint. <sigh>

[Ruth0552]

Regarding the dog spay... $600 is pretty much standard around here for an older dog to be spayed. I think the clinic I work at is expensive and the vet is, erm., not my favorite, but that is what we charge. The size of the dog doesn't change the cost. Cats are cheaper.

Enrofloxin is a REALLY expensive antibiotic. I think it is still under patent or something, not really sure how that works, but I know there isn't a generic availabe, only Baytril (forget who makes Baytril) so they can pretty much charge as much as they want. Never heard of it being recommended due to taste though, it is usually used for resistent infections, or when another cheaper one doesn't work. It does come in flavored tabs for small animals, but I think the cost far outweighs the benefit of flavored abx.

Did you end up using the abx? If you call and complain you might be able to return them if you haven't opened them. Some vets will do that. What did they charge you another $250 for? Even on a Sunday my vet adds up to $135 just for a visit and basic exam, but he is a bargain compared to the small animal practice where I work.

Just to forwarn you... At the clinic where I work, a culture is $120 a piece. Never had one done at my equine vet, but you could be looking at another $300 in bills. Yuck.

[AdAblurr02]

Yep, learned long ago to ASK if the "latest greatest new superdrug" was going to cost more than the horse. I also tend to ask what the benefits are - we are NOT into giving antibiotics for every little thing, as I am still a firm believer in the natural immunity factors.

If my vet - who I trust to know - tells me there is a new resistant strain of whatzizitis now going through the population, then I might feel better in giving a higher potency or broader spectrum drug. In general, we try to keep the costs contained - it lets the vet clinic get paid off sooner!

All that said - vets are not supreme all-knowing beings. They screw up, mis-diagnose, and just plain guess wrong sometimes. But, most are in it because they love the animals - and most work very hard to earn the trust we give them.

Kate

[goodmorning]

A cat SPAY for 75 or a NEUTER? Not quite apples to apples ;)

I agree with the poster that said ask lots of questions. I always ask lots of questions, I like to be educated, I like to make sure there's a solid reason behind the treatment or diagnosis. At first I thought it would be annoying (and I didn't really care lol), but I've only had one vet become annoyed with the questioning, and they were fired. If you can't take 2 minutes to explain something to me, then I can find somebody else. The funniest thing is that there's a vet notorious for his bad 'people skills'- and he loves the questions. He said that if everyone asked questions and could handle the intelligent response, then his job would be a lot easier!

Part of asking the questions is being able to trust that your vet is not just grabbing the money out of your pocket; if you aren't going to trust the answer then move on. I really appreciate me vets and asking questions otherwise seems to keep everyone more honest.

[Tiempo]

That's a lot. I recently got reamed by my small animal vet. $600 to spay a small dog. :eek:

I don't get why professionals gouge patients like this. After my vet gouging experience, I wrote two reviews about him on city websites. I'll only give my honest opinion of him, if I ever get the opportunity. Stupid.

Holy smokes, I thought my small animal vet was expensive :eek:

Bessie (basenji/JRT) ingested carpet last fall, when all was said and done, the tab was over $6k, BUT they saved her when I truly believe another practice may not have been able to. The quality of care was fantastic, and them being a 24 hour hospital made all the difference...she never would have made it without the constant observation and reaction as soon as she needed it for the 3 weeks she was hospitalized (belly went septic).

A much smaller bill, but still sticker shock came last spring.

I was out at the barn and the vet was there for someone elses horse, Norman and Tiempo were both due for sheath cleanings, which I was about to do myself, but I thought what the heck, while the vet is here I may as well have her do them.

Wish I'd kept my mouth shut when the bill was $137 :eek:

Don't get me wrong, I love my vets, but I think they love me too :winkgrin:

[chism]

I had a gelding with private, personal space "issues" at the lameness clinic, while he was tranq'd for hock injections. I said "Hey, since he's trang'd, I'll pay you to clean his sheath. The tech said "Trust me...you don't want to pay what we charge for it, I'll give you a glove and you can do it while you're here." I

[HiddenStars826]

Well, I dunno.

I think what needs to be said here is that it all depends on the area. Just like everything else, vet prices aren't going to be the same in Town A as they will be in Town B. Aside from that, the farm call fees for "Emergency Visit" (during normal hours) and "After HOurs" visit are going to be different from a regular farm call fee. And rightly so. Antibiotics ARE expensive. Hell, they are expensive for HUMANS but we have insurance in most cases that can cover it.
I ask a lot of questions from my vet, we discuss things such as pros/cons, costs, what ifs. Both vets in the practice put the time in to answer the questions to the best of their ability, and they TELL me when they don't know for sure, or if they think something is or is not worth doing. This keeps my vet bill from running up excessively. When my vet charged 90$ for a physical exam of my horse's leg (thats wht he called it..) when it was swollen, etc., at first I thought, well jeez I could have flexed it a bit and done all that too. Then I said, well hey, he couldn't walk on it a few days ago, so I should just shutup because if thats what it costs to make sure nothing is seriously wrong, then so be it.
That being said, I do think I've funded a small portion of the vet's divorce recently ;)

Of course, if my vet came out to see and diagnose a case of scratches, he quite possibly would laugh at me and ask if there was something else I wanted him to do to make the farm call worth my money. That is something you should be able to explain over the phone and have them able to give you a good idea of what it is. $2000 for scratches to be diagnosed would have me really wondering about the vet, but about the owner as well, honestly.

[FancyFree]

The $600 spaying was expensive. I called around afterwards and found the highest in my area is around $300. But my bad. I should have called around beforehand. I assumed vets charge comparable prices. Never assume! I went to him because my mother took her dogs to him years ago. Maybe he has kids to put through college now. What was funny was, when I got the bill, I was a little stunned. I said to the receptionist "Wow this is expensive!" She replied, "If you were in the hospital having a hysterectomy, you would have paid $16,000!"

Oh thanks, that makes me feel much better! :lol:

[Ghazzu]

Gee, when you spell it out like that they deserve the $600 just for knowing what it is!!! :) Although comparing a cat/dog spaying to a human tubal-type thing is probably not quite apples to apples.

I was comparing apples to apples-- a spay is an ovariohysterectomy--removal of uterus and ovaries.
A tubal ligation is merely a transection of the oviduct.
Much less complicated (and likely more expensive than a spay, as well.)

[LuvMyTB]

I love my vet but sometimes I hate how expensive she is. My mare was put on Isoxsuprine in Oct. 06. One bottle (1000 count I think) was $65 through the vet. Doesn't sound bad, but most of the vet-supply websites offer it for $29.95 for the same count. I called her office and said I wanted to order through someone else and asked them to fax the prescription. They said sure....for a $15 prescription fee. :eek:

Thanks a lot.

[Pony Fixer]

Never ceases to amaze me....

So we're expected to go to school for a minimum of 8 years, to the tune of a gazillion dollars (OK, in my case $90K), so we can undercharge and starve?

A spay is about $500-600 at my clinic. Probably cheaper elsewhere. But I know how we do things. I know we have IV cath/fluids in, heart monitors, blood pressure monitors, and a licensed tech running anesthesia. That's even before I do my part. If you wanna spend less, and get less, feel free. I'd rather the patient stand the best chance possible to actually *live* through their elective surgery. While not always a true-ism, you normally get what you pay for.

As for horses, same goes. Plus I come to your house whenever you call. In -35 degree weather. Since I can't do labs on site, I have to use my considerable experience and education (again, $90K) to do the best I can at the time.

Ah, I see the post now, had things gone differently..."The vet wanted to wait on a culture before starting meds because I was concerned about money. Now the horse is dead because the doc couldn't figure it out without a test. I need a new vet."

As my Nana always said, "Good, fast, cheap--pick two.". :lol:

[Janet]

My vet always presents the bill- and gets paid- before he leaves the farm. So there are no surprises "later".
The only time he has prescribed "very expensive" antibiotics is when we tried penecillin and smz and they were not working.

[D Murray]

you americans get things cheap. my wife just had 2 cats (that someone kindly dumped on us last summer)neutered and declawed, total bill 1180.00

[arena run]

A cat SPAY for 75 or a NEUTER? Not quite apples to apples ;)

I agree with the poster that said ask lots of questions. I always ask lots of questions, I like to be educated, I like to make sure there's a solid reason behind the treatment or diagnosis. At first I thought it would be annoying (and I didn't really care lol), but I've only had one vet become annoyed with the questioning, and they were fired. If you can't take 2 minutes to explain something to me, then I can find somebody else. The funniest thing is that there's a vet notorious for his bad 'people skills'- and he loves the questions. He said that if everyone asked questions and could handle the intelligent response, then his job would be a lot easier!

Part of asking the questions is being able to trust that your vet is not just grabbing the money out of your pocket; if you aren't going to trust the answer then move on. I really appreciate me vets and asking questions otherwise seems to keep everyone more honest.

First of all, to the OP, you wouldn't get me on your farm in -35 degree weather for less than $500, either.



Um, what part of removing the uterus and ovaries do you think is different? It certainly IS a valid comparison! If by a "human tubal-type thing" you mean a tubal ligation to prevent pregnancy, that's actually a much less complex surgery than having a dog or cat spayed.

I was comparing apples to apples-- a spay is an ovariohysterectomy--removal of uterus and ovaries.
A tubal ligation is merely a transection of the oviduct.
Much less complicated (and likely more expensive than a spay, as well.)

My vet always presents the bill- and gets paid- before he leaves the farm. So there are no surprises "later".
The only time he has prescribed "very expensive" antibiotics is when we tried penecillin and smz and they were not working.


Hmmm, okie-dokie, folks. Read this again. I'm-a-sayin' that iffin you can SPELL the durn word... you should ex-PECT to get paid $600.

K? <lol>


I'm also saying that no matter how old or which sex I can get a cat or dog spayed, neutered or even I.V.'d for heat exhaustion for less than $100.

ANNNNND w/a discount for multiple cats/dogs (on the spaying/neuter thing).

Please do excuse me for saying this dear vets but - I do not equate the malpractice risk in being a vet to the malpractice risk in being a human doctor. The costs ARE different for this reason and therefore no valid comparison of the costs between the two can be made. sylvia

[Ghazzu]

ANNNNND w/a discount for multiple cats/dogs (on the spaying/neuter thing).

This never ceases to amaze/amuse me--that DVMs give a discount on something that they're already doing at a loss, if they actually sit and crunch the numbers (and, as Pony Fixer says, if they're practicing high-quality medicine.)

IIRC, it was Robert Miller, DVM, who was approached by a humane society who wanted him to do spays for $X.
When he pointed out that he'd be losing money because it cost more than $X to do the surgery, the humane socitey spokesman said, "Oh, you just need to do *more* of them."

There's a similar mindset that seems to prevail among animal owners in general--they want the DVM to have digital xray equipment, a good ultrasound unit capable of both repro and tendon imaging, an endoscope, etc., etc.
But when they are charged fees that reflect the cost of paying for the education, the tools, and the convenience of having someone make an emergency housecall in the wee hours, somehow all too often the vet becomes the money-grubbing villain of the piece.
And Allah forbid that the owner can't get their vet to come, and has to settle for someone who's covering. How dare they have a life.

Do you begin to see why there's a shortage of equine practitioners?



Please do excuse me for saying this dear vets but - I do not equate the malpractice risk in being a vet to the malpractice risk in being a human doctor. The costs ARE different for this reason and therefore no valid comparison of the costs between the two can be made. sylviaDo you really think that major the difference in the cost of a human vs. a canine OHE is malpractice premiums?
I think not.
Mean cost for abdominal hysterectomy in US hospitals in 2002 was over $5700.
$600 for surgery and $5100 in malpractice insurance?


I will say that IMNSHO the vet should have mentioned the cost of enerofloxacin before prescribing it in the OP's case.

[4Martini]

When my dog got really sick at the end (she was 17) my husband turned to me and said, "you talk to them about how much things cost. You're good at paying vet bills. And remember, I love this dog a whole lot more than that damn horse."

Yup, my specialty, paying vet bills :lol:

They looked at me pretty funny when I pulled a little jar of adequan out of my pocket and asked if something like that would help the dog.

[J Swan]

you americans get things cheap. my wife just had 2 cats (that someone kindly dumped on us last summer)neutered and declawed, total bill 1180.00

That's what you get for having socialized medicine.

(that was a joke);)

[J Swan]

On a more serious note......

a vet who posted mentioned the equipment necessary to perform this "elective" surgery. I can completely understand and agree such equipment is very expensive to purchase and maintain, and that cost is going to be passed on to the animal owner.

Like I said before, it used to be that this surgery was considered a luxury; due to the cost. Now it's pretty routine. So you'd expect the cost to come down with time, not go up. Just an observation - I'm not complaining about vet bills.

I hesitate to call this "elective" surgery, though. More and more, mandatory spay/neuter is being put on the books. When it becomes mandatory for every animal owner to spay or neuter their pets (or face fines, seizure of the animal, and increased license fees), I can hardly call the procedure, "elective".

No matter what a humane society says, spaying a female is expensive. But at some point, I'd expect the cost to come down or be considered a routine procedure.

A vet that performs the low cost spay/neuter is really offering a valuable service to the community and for those vets that can do this work, thank you.

[FindersKeepers]

I have found, the hard way, that the only way to watch your vet costs, is to ask up front.

Now don't get me wrong, if the old grey mare was near death, it wouldn't matter to me what it cost, I'd find a way to make it work...thats what my emergency expense credit card is for.

But when the old grey mare got rickety last summer, I had the vet come out, knowing in advance what it would cost. Farm call plus lameness exam. So she came out, agreed it looked like arthritis in the hocks. X-rays from a few years ago showed she had some, at the age of 22, yea, likely to be the cause. Did I want new X-rays? no. not for my 22 year old pasture puff. did I want hock injections? why??? no thanks. We agreed on a cheap plan to get started, and if it didn't help, then we'd start working up the ladder.

Calling the vet to come out, and then being shocked when the bill comes, is like going to a store, grabbing a bunch of things, and being shocked when you get up to the register. Be an informed consumer.

Is the OP being taken advantage of? kind of...yea. Vet should have been up front, but it's your responsibility to ask. Good business advice...never shake hands until you see the final numbers.

[Tory Relic]

:eek:


Do others have these issues????



Nope. I don't see that coming out in -35 degree weather and examining three horses (which I certainly would have wanted) is worth any less than $250ish. As for the antibiotic, your fault. You should have asked how much it was going to cost. I certainly do. I am all for the best treatments for my horse, but my pocketbook needs to be able to handle it. Most vets understand this, and assume that if you don't ask, you want the treatment no matter the cost. Why shouldn't they? YOU are the one making the decision, shouldn't you make an informed one?

Whoever said $600 for a spay -- that would be expensive here, but in states where everything costs more, I would expect it. Last dog I had spayed was an older bitch and because of her age, the vet wanted to do some blood panels and she was due for some shots and a heart worm test, so we had it all done and came in under $300.....I was shocked it didn't cost more. We do get a $20 discount on "mommy" dogs, when we bring them and the puppies in (or if there are complications that need the vet) for their first exam. This is nice, especially if you have several litters a year, but it certainly isn't something I would expect.

[mbarrett]

Have you ever thought that your vet might want to get rid of you as a client? Maybe by overcharging you for farm calls, that will get you to leave their practice and go to another vet.

Just a thought. It's a two way street. Some clients are pains-in-the-butt and are not worth it.

Besides, did you ask the cost of the farm call, mileage, lab tests, blood draws, medication and other assorted fees before dragging the vet out in -35 degree weather? Of course they are going to be compensated for their services.

Remember, most vet practices are for-profit businesses. They are in it to make money, not just to stitch up a pony's leg, snotty nose (or whatever). All costs are passed on to the consumer, just like any other business.

[Thomas_1]

I've never personally had issues with my vet.

You probably need to talk to yours about his pricing policy and get a better understanding of what things are likely to cost and also obtain estimated costs for work.

I'm not clear what you've already been charged for and what is outstanding but I'm thinking:

call out charge (perhaps variable dependent on distance?)
antibiotics
cost of work to take samples
clinical examination

And without doing culture swabs your vet won't know whether its strangles, something else or a cold!

[SmokenMirrors]

I think that we, as owners, have a responsibility to ask what things will cost, why they wish to do this procedure or what will happen if I do this instead of what you have said for me to do. A horse is an expensive animal, nothing we do with them is cheap and if you feel your vet was being a bit evasive on the cost, then by all means, find another or start calling around and comparing prices. If you think what you paid was expensive, try having a vet bill for $1300 after your animal was at the vet hospital for 4 days. I look at it that the horse is my responsibility, they look to me to keep them healthy, and are much like my children. I wouldn't sit back and let them have what I "thought" was a viral infection and do nothing and let it run its course, I want to be sure. I hope that you put your horse in the stall and kept them out of the chill or wind.

I have a vet that is a bit on the higher end side but her goodness, ability to get out here immediately when it matters and how she interacts with my three horses and how they respond to her I take into consideration. I have had other vets come out, one of my vets constituents in fact, he and I and the horses didn't care for him so I won't use him.

As for price, sometimes we need to suck it up and deal with it. If you want to go the cheap route, remember, you get what you pay for. I am not going to pay for a cheap vet just because I am a skin flint.

[Lookout]

Gee, when you spell it out like that they deserve the $600 just for knowing what it is!!! :) Although comparing a cat/dog spaying to a human tubal-type thing is probably not quite apples to apples. Our cat spays are $75.

My vet came out to the house and performed surgery on my mare for a slab of shoulder she had tried to shave off compliments of the guide wire on the light pole. The total charge was $150 and that included all the follow-up meds.

And it was on a Saturday morning, too. sylvia


OTOH, you are located in Mississippi.

[AKB]

Enrofloxacin is very expensive, even when you buy it from a catalogue instead of from the vet. I almost always ask the vet if there is a cheap alternative when he proposes something expensive. Fortunately, my current vet always thinks about price when he offers me treatment options.

One of our horses recently had a bad, infected, foot puncture wound (104.9 temperature, 3 legged lame) that required a minor surgical procedure, 8 days of intravenous Enrofloxacin and Gentamycin, and a month of oral antibiotics. I was happy that the bill only came to $1500. It would have been less, but I panicked and insisted on a couple of unnecessary x-rays. I think my bill would have been double that if we had to hospitalize the horse. Fortunately, our vet was willing to come out whenever we needed him, and to show us how to do the nursing care so we could avoid a trip to the hospital. I have made sure that he understands that we do not have an unlimited horse budget. We spend money when it is necessary for the horse, but try to cut corners when it will not affect the horse.

[Petstorejunkie]

Since i sold this stuff for several years to the vets i have a good idea of what happened. horse "x" needed enro, vet compounds enro over the phone as usual, but is in a hurry and is being a boogar of a human. So screw you vet, i wont warn you its insanely expensive! says the sales rep/order taker lady to herself.
Vet gets product and invoice, "holy crap, my client with a fugly grade horse isnt going to buy this?!" so he finds the first gullable person to offload it onto that will pay that bill (since enro is non refundable under the pedigree laws)

Seriously? get a new vet that doesnt take advantage of your trust, and requesnt Uniprim (the origional tucoprim) as it is the least expensive sulfa antibiotic currently on the market (once daily powder)

If it were me, i would agree to pay him the current price for SMZ and no more for him being a dishonest veterinarian.

Scumbag.

[SLW]

I don't think the $250 for a farm call and three physical exams is out of line. The price of drugs suck, they are high but you've learned a bit from this and are more aware now.

Anytime we are having our horse's worked on it's okay to ask questions from the point of view of wanting to be informed, not co-vet with your Doc. Problems & disatisfaction that arise w/ clients at the practice where I work are almost always the result of misunderstanding or lack of communication on one parties part. Most of the time once something is respectfully explained the matter is cleared up and trust is restored.

In fact a little off topic but an example, a 20 something year old walked in last week w/ a 8 month old yellow lab who had a teeny laceration above a front dew claw. It was a dog the Drug Rehab program gave him when he graduated from the program a couple months earlier. He was distraught because a practice down the road told him for $250 they would make the repair and frankly, his cash flow wasn't that good. But to the medical point, the laceration was small and there was not $250 worth of work to be done. That practice had priced the repair at a "Go Away" fee to him. Doc was gone for the day but I told him bring her back in the morning and we could do the repair and it would not cost $250. The next morning the dog was repaired in less than 10 minutes and with two stitches. The fee Doc charged compensated him and was not done at a "comp" rate, just a fair rate for his time and business profit. Even Doc, in practice 20 years, was slackjawed when he heard the quote given by the other practice.

That $600 fee for an adult dog spay is much higher than any practice around here charges. We don't do a lot of companion animal work but do charge more for older & overweight dogs because they require more time to work on- fat dogs bleed a lot and digging through all fat to find the ovaries takes time.

I don't think any decent, half way normal person even presumes they can diagnois or operate on an animal, much less one which they are emotionally conneceted with. It goes without saying that becoming a veterinarian and taking on the risk of owning a small business is unique, if not downright noble. (Another equine practice we work with just got set up to provide digital radiographs. The start up equipment cost were $100,000.) It still comes back to communication and understanding what choices, if any, are available to the client/consumer when services or medicines are being discussed with the Doc. And that is far different from an owner who dictate's orders to Doc's during the course of treatment. Those folks are sent down the road. ;)

[Pony Fixer]

On a more serious note......

a vet who posted mentioned the equipment necessary to perform this "elective" surgery. I can completely understand and agree such equipment is very expensive to purchase and maintain, and that cost is going to be passed on to the animal owner.

Like I said before, it used to be that this surgery was considered a luxury; due to the cost. Now it's pretty routine. So you'd expect the cost to come down with time, not go up. Just an observation - I'm not complaining about vet bills.

I hesitate to call this "elective" surgery, though. More and more, mandatory spay/neuter is being put on the books. When it becomes mandatory for every animal owner to spay or neuter their pets (or face fines, seizure of the animal, and increased license fees), I can hardly call the procedure, "elective".

No matter what a humane society says, spaying a female is expensive. But at some point, I'd expect the cost to come down or be considered a routine procedure.

A vet that performs the low cost spay/neuter is really offering a valuable service to the community and for those vets that can do this work, thank you.

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but...

Until they are required by law, (and even if they were), it is still an "elective" procedure to spay/neuter. That doesn't mean I don't think it's important, and I do think is saves lives. But it isn't *necessary* to live, therefore it is elective. The more we perform does make it more routine, but not less elective, nor less expensive. While some fixed costs "decrease" when used over time (surgery table, lights, for example), others are needed new each time and those costs are probably relatively stable or slowly increase with time (anesthesia drugs, fluids, etc.). Some new things come out that are safer which increase our cost substantially (newer, safer anesthetic gases, etc.).

And routine doesn't mean easy. I've done a lot of spays, and yet I find surprises. The redundant ovarian artery that wasn't supposed to be there and the dog practically bleeding out before we can get it, the hermaphrodite, the list goes on. You want a competent surgeon spaying your pet. It may be routine, but face it, it is major surgery. Just ask any hysterectomized woman.

Low cost spay neuter programs are subsidized. Yes, it's not a big money maker for the vets (and I have volunteered some time as well), but we'd all be out of business if we had to live on it.

To the OP, I also agree that the vet should have disclosed that Baytril is expensive. Whether a big dog or a big horse, I try to pick the least expensive, yet still effective, medication. But we only have one side of the story, so it's hard to say what really happened. I doubt a vet would loosely prescribe Baytril if they seriously thought it was "just a cold".

[Ashby]

I doubt a vet would loosely prescribe Baytril if they seriously thought it was "just a cold".

I'm not complaining, really. In our case the Baytril appears to have been necessary. Our mare's puncture wound infection/cellulitis failed Tucoprim and IV injections of Naxcel, so upping the ante seemed the obvious next step. If she fails this (and it's not looking great) the situation becomes worrisome.

[Jasper'sMom]

Yep, I think the moral of the story is to ask what it costs first. A little story to illustrate:

A couple of years ago, I had a horse who seemed a little ouchy. It was winter, icy out and I thought maybe he had a little sole bruising going on. There was a vet (not my usual vet, but one that had worked on several horses for me in the past, at not insignificant cost) out at the barn, to see some other horses. We were casually chatting as he waited for the next client to bring her horse in and I had my horse in the aisle. I happened to mention the ouchiness/possible bruising. Vet said - oh, want me to throw some hoof testers on him? Very casually, like, you know, I'm standing here anyway, waiting on some other stuff. So I said sure. He took approximately 3 minutes to grab some hooftesters, try 'em and say, yep, seems kind of ouchy on the front feet, you're right - probably just a little bruised, I wouldn't worry too much unless it gets worse. I said, thanks. He went on to work on the other horse.

A week later I got a bill for $100.

OUCH.:eek:

[sketcher]

Since i sold this stuff for several years to the vets i have a good idea of what happened. horse "x" needed enro, vet compounds enro over the phone as usual, but is in a hurry and is being a boogar of a human. So screw you vet, i wont warn you its insanely expensive! says the sales rep/order taker lady to herself.
Vet gets product and invoice, "holy crap, my client with a fugly grade horse isnt going to buy this?!" so he finds the first gullable person to offload it onto that will pay that bill (since enro is non refundable under the pedigree laws)

Seriously? get a new vet that doesnt take advantage of your trust, and requesnt Uniprim (the origional tucoprim) as it is the least expensive sulfa antibiotic currently on the market (once daily powder)

If it were me, i would agree to pay him the current price for SMZ and no more for him being a dishonest veterinarian.

Scumbag.

So, you're saying you were the booger of a human who took the compounding order and did not tell the vet the cost because they were in a hurry and you said "screw you vet".

From there you presume that they are unable to pass on the cost to their original customer so they select whom they are going to stick with the drug based on who they thing they can bill for it regardless of need?

And since you sold to vets you know this happens all the time?

So you recommend the horse owner assume the vet screwed her on purpose because you screwed the vet over the phone when you took the order?

Rubbish. I think you're the scumbag.

Good vets are worth their weight in gold.

[HiddenStars826]

Good vets are worth their weight in gold.

Darned right they are. Thats why its such a search to find one.
Mine brought the horsie treats when she came last. He was snooping around her pockets when she was looking his face and eyes, and wasn't he excited when she pulled out a treat for him after finishing! My oh my, did she become the horsie's new best friend. It endeared her to me that much more as well, I'll tell ya. She's one of those vets who loves her clients and their horses, and loves to tell you that.

[Wigwag]

Gonna keep it short and sweet.

1) Vet should have said the new med was expensive. All my vets always keep me informed of approx. costs of things, whether ball park, baseline (minimum that it will be), or the exact cost of a particular med or procedure. I would be absolutely furious if one recommended a med and made it sound like it was no big deal, just new and "lets give it a try" - and then it ended up costing $250. I'd be finding a new vet quite frankly!

2) $600 is NOT normal for a dog spay. Been in the dog rescue and training world for awhile, I know a lot of vets around here and keep up to tabs with people throughout this side of the country. Even top notch quality vets it runs 2 - 3 hundred MAX for a large breed adult dog spay (german shepherd rescue - been involved with a lot of spays) with all pre-op bloodwork, etc...I just had two adult female GSD's spayed this summer at one of (if not THE) best vet in this state and the total bill was right at $300 each. That was pricier than most others around here. However, that vet is the best. Again - $600, not normal. Comparing a dog spay to a human surgery is ridiculous.

[Baroquen Dreams]

I love my kids, but paying $250 so they can have an antibiotic "that tastes better" is just a little more spoiling than I think they need.

Buying the box of stale Krispy Kreme donut holes to hide them in is ever so much cheaper and more in my budget............and yes, they have fallen for that trick.

Your vet really should have given you all the information, but then, I'm also one of those people that asks for those details if its not offered. I learned that the hard way once and I don't think I want to see if I can afford to pay for it again.

As to the spaying of a small dog for $600 - OUCH! I just picked up my little girl this AM from the vet and it cost me $130, so I would definitely say that was a bit wild.

[Ghazzu]

Comparing a dog spay to a human surgery is ridiculous.

Why?

[Tory Relic]

Originally Posted by Wigwag http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2990774#post2990774)
Comparing a dog spay to a human surgery is ridiculous.


Why?


Because many people expect the FOR PROFIT organizations around the horse/pet industry to subsidize their pleasure animals, that's why. :p

[Auventera Two]

Never ceases to amaze me....

So we're expected to go to school for a minimum of 8 years, to the tune of a gazillion dollars (OK, in my case $90K), so we can undercharge and starve?

Hey - you chose the profession. ;) I have no problem paying good money for vet procedures. My animals are important to me. But I also think vet clinics need to keep in mind that owners don't have insurance for pets like we do for ourself. If you start charging 2 arms and 6 legs for everything, how many people are just going to euth, or else dump the cat at a shelter instead of spaying it? Something to think about. I think if you get into vet care, you have to know that people can't aford medical bills on animals like they can on people.

A spay is about $500-600 at my clinic. Probably cheaper elsewhere. But I know how we do things. I know we have IV cath/fluids in, heart monitors, blood pressure monitors, and a licensed tech running anesthesia. That's even before I do my part. If you wanna spend less, and get less, feel free. I'd rather the patient stand the best chance possible to actually *live* through their elective surgery. While not always a true-ism, you normally get what you pay for.

I got every bit of that also, and my dog's neuter was under $200, and all of our cat spays and neuters ran between $75 and $150. On top of that I got "stray discounts" because every one of my cats I took in because they were dumped. Again - charge 600 bucks and I guarantee people will start dumping them. ;) People won't even pay the 150 to spay! They'd rather dump them on a dairy farmer or drop them at the shelter.

[Auventera Two]

Why?

Because if the cat dies while being spayed, it's proably not the end of the world. If a mother dies during a hysterectomy, you've got everything from malpractice to babies without a mamma, and husbands without a wife to consider. The family is planning a funeral and learning to live without this person in their life instead of tossing some dirt on a shoebox in the hole in the back yard.

Comparing a procedure on a cat to the same procedure on a human is not even in the same ballpark. ;)

[CosMonster]

I don't think most of the prices quoted in this thread are that out of line. Most places I've lived, spays for dogs can cost anywhere from $80 to $600 or $700, depending on where you go. The posh places that have all kinds of fancy equipment and lots of staff to cater to your every need and a nice office in a good location with a comfortable waiting room cost a lot. The places that just cover the basic necessities to safely operate, have a minimum amount of staff, a rudimentary waiting room and a maybe not so ideal location cost a lot less. Remember, you're not paying for only the vet's time and the cost of the materials. You are also paying for insurance, utilities, the staff's salaries, rent or mortgage on the clinic, the cost of their equipment, and their education. All of that costs money, and all of the nice little extras cost even more. The vet and their staff deserve not only to break even, but to make a good living with what is a very stressful, emotionally taxing job IMO.

I think the vet in the OP should have mentioned the cost of the antibiotics, but I don't think she should be villified for not doing so. Who knows, maybe she meant to but forgot that she hadn't, or maybe she did but the OP wasn't really listening (I've done both personally :)). The other charges don't seem out of line at all. $250 for all that in -35 degrees? I don't think I'd go out in that for less than $1000! Ultimately it is the customer's responsibility to make sure they understand the time and expense involved in any treatment before they authorize it.

The only thing that makes me raise my eyebrows is the $2000 case of scratches. Obviously there's no information about that, so I can't really judge, but I am having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around that one.

[chism]

The $2,000 case of scratches reminds me of my dog's $800 case of mange. I did all the right things, took him to the vet multiple times over a period of months, gave him antibiotics & steroids, skin testing (negative for mange?!), changed to a prescription diet..you name it. What finally she the light on the cured was a comment I made about having horses & the requisite doggie poopsicles. Turns out all he really needed was a couple of ivermectin shots to the tune of about $40.

[Rudy]

Something to think about. I think if you get into vet care, you have to know that people can't aford medical bills on animals like they can on people.


If someone can't afford possible medical bills for their animal they shouldn't even own the animal. Pets are not a requirement to live.

[R D Lite]

The only thing that makes me raise my eyebrows is the $2000 case of scratches. Obviously there's no information about that, so I can't really judge, but I am having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around that one.

In the interest of clarity, I'd like to point out that the OP's horse was diagnosed with leukocytoclastic vasculitis, which is an autoimmune disease that is often assumed to be bacterial scratches (even by vets) until labwork proves otherwise. (I am assuming this is the same horse to which vpstevens referred in the original post. If not, I apologize for the confusion.) I spent way more than 2000 dollars trying to treat my own horse's LV, though his case was especially severe and complicated by another immune-mediated illness.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=115402&page=1

As far as the antibiotics issue goes, yeah, it would have been nice if the vet had mentioned the cost, but personally I can't imagine not asking about how much a given treatment is going to cost before choosing it.

[SmokenMirrors]

If someone can't afford possible medical bills for their animal they shouldn't even own the animal. Pets are not a requirement to live.

AMEN Rudy! Finally someone who speaks up and tells the truth! I wouldn't own 3 horses, one being a draft, if I couldn't afford them and I mean proper taking are of them, not bitching and whining because something was expensive!
:yes:

[Ghazzu]

Because if the cat dies while being spayed, it's proably not the end of the world. If a mother dies during a hysterectomy, you've got everything from malpractice to babies without a mamma, and husbands without a wife to consider. The family is planning a funeral and learning to live without this person in their life instead of tossing some dirt on a shoebox in the hole in the back yard.

Comparing a procedure on a cat to the same procedure on a human is not even in the same ballpark. ;)

So the charges for a human surgery of comparable level of difficulty to an animal surgery should cost orders of magnitude more because the surgeon *might* kill them and its a bigger deal to kill a human than a cat?

I'm not comparing the value of a barn owner to that of a barn cat, but it sounds like a pretty silly rationale to me.

[Ghazzu]

Hey - you chose the profession. ;) I have no problem paying good money for vet procedures. My animals are important to me. But I also think vet clinics need to keep in mind that owners don't have insurance for pets like we do for ourself. If you start charging 2 arms and 6 legs for everything, how many people are just going to euth, or else dump the cat at a shelter instead of spaying it? Something to think about. I think if you get into vet care, you have to know that people can't aford medical bills on animals like they can on people.



I got every bit of that also, and my dog's neuter was under $200, and all of our cat spays and neuters ran between $75 and $150. On top of that I got "stray discounts" because every one of my cats I took in because they were dumped. Again - charge 600 bucks and I guarantee people will start dumping them. ;) People won't even pay the 150 to spay! They'd rather dump them on a dairy farmer or drop them at the shelter.

Same old tired BS I've heard for years--people are irresponsible jackasses, but somehow, that's the *veterinarian's* fault.
Sorry.
I don't buy it anymore.

[horses4me]

These charges are not terribly high. You need to consider all of the over head costs as there are many!! Horses are large animal that require large doses of medications, and driving to get to them. If you own a horse you need to be prepared to pay for their veterinary care. I am very grateful for my veterinarians and they are worth the costs.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I had to look to see if you're from my neighborhood! I have the same vet! I go ballistic when I get those outrageous bills and an explanation that my vet thought something would be "easier" or "taste better" or some such thing that only costs me more money. If it's necessary, fine...but his spending my money for me has cost him the business of our whole farm... 34 stalls, gone to another very good vet.

[vpstevens]

The OP said it was over $500 and not including the outstanding labs yet. Yep, $250 for the A/B. But I don't see what the vet did for $250+ aside from culture the one he was called about and the other two that he was not there to see that were getting over their colds and more than likely wasn't asked to culture... per the OP were fine. Did he do a full exam, check her lungs, her temp himself and so forth? Enough to justify the cost, not just that it was super cold out because it's winter in Wisconsin? Or was it an emergency call making it a higher call and trip charge?

Don't know about everyone else, but my vet works for me and he doesn't just randomly go around and do as he pleases if I don't ask him to... not that he ever would. But he does ask if there's anything else he needs to do before he does leave because it's such a trip for him.

It is interesting to see what vets charge around the country though and how much it varies.


Only called about the mare. Told him the others had had it but were doing fine. Still snots in their nose but that was all. Eating and drinking just fine. Then he told the tech to grab 3 cultures. After taking the fever on the mare, decided he should also draw blood on her for ??? Don't think he ever said.

I need to start taking control and start controlling the situation. I think I have led this vet to believe I had a money tree in my yard and that I am willing to experiement! This is clearly what he did with me for the case of scratches.

Also, this was not an emergency call. I called the clinic when it opened in the morning and asked if he had any openings for that day. I clearly specified that it was not an emergency.

I am seeking a new vet. Since I called an complained about the cost of the antibiotic, I have not received a call back about the final culture results. Experience tells me that I will never hear those results from this vet.

Here is the most comical part. This vet was voted vet of the year in 2007. It must have been based on his willingness to waste clients money and experiement versus really finding a cause! Thinking back, my 5 year old mare had issues as a yearling. I spent a significant amount of money with him in trying to identify why she showed lameness. He injected a yearling with steriods on a couple of occasions with absolutely no improvement. Wanted to do another injection when I decided to take her to Dr. Stone, an equine orthopedic specialist. Dr. Stone quickly diagnosed her as having too thin of a sole in her left front hoof and provided me a topical ointment called "Durasole" which quickly hardened her sole and resolved the problem. And we injected the filly why??????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????

[vpstevens]

I had to look to see if you're from my neighborhood! I have the same vet! I go ballistic when I get those outrageous bills and an explanation that my vet thought something would be "easier" or "taste better" or some such thing that only costs me more money. If it's necessary, fine...but his spending my money for me has cost him the business of our whole farm... 34 stalls, gone to another very good vet.

Agree! I have since taken the mare off of the antibiotics since there is no justification for having her on them to begin with. Since they are gold antibiotics, I will wait to see if she is ever really sick and needs them and now have them to self treat!

[vpstevens]

AMEN Rudy! Finally someone who speaks up and tells the truth! I wouldn't own 3 horses, one being a draft, if I couldn't afford them and I mean proper taking are of them, not bitching and whining because something was expensive!
:yes:

You really don't get the point of the post. I can afford my horses. I alone (not including my husband) have a six figure salary and me and my husband do quite well for ourselves. I own many pets (Two Weimaraners, a blue and gold macaw, a barn cat and three horses).

I own a draft horse because I rescued him from going to a feed lot which would eventually turn him over to slaugher. Only 4 months old when I got him! He was one of the 40 horses that survived the overturned cattle trailer accident in Illinois in October!

I pay over $4.50 a bale for hay when the average is only $2.50 for my area. I buy the best quality, equipment, etc... Don't dare state that I can't afford my animals because I assure you that I can. The point here is that since I have money, my vet feels that he can do any experiemental treatment he so desires on my horses. I don't think he is honest and is starting to take advantage of his customers.

This is the problem that I am trying to address and get feedback on.:sadsmile:

[vpstevens]

In the interest of clarity, I'd like to point out that the OP's horse was diagnosed with leukocytoclastic vasculitis, which is an autoimmune disease that is often assumed to be bacterial scratches (even by vets) until labwork proves otherwise. (I am assuming this is the same horse to which vpstevens referred in the original post. If not, I apologize for the confusion.) I spent way more than 2000 dollars trying to treat my own horse's LV, though his case was especially severe and complicated by another immune-mediated illness.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=115402&page=1

As far as the antibiotics issue goes, yeah, it would have been nice if the vet had mentioned the cost, but personally I can't imagine not asking about how much a given treatment is going to cost before choosing it.

R D Lite,

Yes, same horse. But please remember, it took $1,500 in experimental treatments before this vet even decided to do a biopsy to isolate the source. The experimental treatments where a bunch of call charges along with a host of products to treat scratches and a game to see which would work! After diagnosis was finally reached (biopsy done), the protocol he put her on was not in alignment with what we had previously discussed (you and I) and I had to have a specialist contact him to get him to change his protocol. He was only willing to change part of his protocol and needlesss to say, the problem still exists but at least not to the extreme. I don't touch this mares legs anymore and we don't have any inflamation. Skin is still very, very pink with minimal hair but little in terms of scabs exists. Come spring, this too might change but if it does, she will only see an expert for treatment!

[amdfarm]

I just realized who you were! (duh! ;) You're Will-be's "momma"!!

I don't blame you for looking for another vet (vet of the year or not), I sure would. I also agree on taking control, as well. Ask questions, so that you are informed. I'm always asking my vet(s) questions even if it doesn't pertain to what we're doing at the time or even my horses. That stuff fascinates me and there's always something to learn I think. What I love about him is that he always asks my opinion on things before ever doing them, unless it's something routine, which I appreciate. He understands that I know my horses better than anyone, as most vets should.

Funny story, he (w/ his older gentleman helper) came out to geld a colt a couple years ago and after the deed was done he asked me if I wanted them pitched in front or in back of him. Now, I've had colts and an older stallion gelded before, but this question was never asked before so I had this very puzzled look on my face. He, nonchalantly said, w/ a grin on his face, "if you want him to fun fast we throw them in front, if you want him to run slow, we throw them behind." Being a yearling percheron cross he was already pretty laid back, so I said throw one in front and one in back and we'll see if fall somewhere in between! :D My vet and his helper got the biggest kick out of that and still tease me about it, so for playing a funny on me I put them to work while my now gelding was still out. I needed to rasp his feet a little, pretty easy when they're laying down, so I grabbed mine and they went to the truck and grabbed theirs, each took a foot and started rasping away! Got all four feet done before he woke up! :winkgrin: And he didn't charge me a dime for it!! He knew it was payback and part of my joke by calling them the Redneck Vet Clinic! :D They're pretty off the wall sometimes and it's so fun, we have a great time when he comes and his new partner is learning and fitting in great w/ our fun!

As for how the gelding came out w/ his new speed rating, he's 3 now and it's still up in the air yet, because about a half a second after they teased me I pitched his jewels to my Lab who quickly and happily devoured the tasty treats. ;)

[R D Lite]

R D Lite,
Yes, same horse. But please remember, it took $1,500 in experimental treatments before this vet even decided to do a biopsy to isolate the source.

First of all, I'm very happy to hear that your mare is still doing well. That's wonderful news! I mentioned this only because I think people unfamiliar with your case probably assumed you were talking about the run-of-the-mill scratches most of us deal with at one point or another.

I don't know your vet; I wouldn't presume to know whether or not he's doing a good job. FWIW, I don't think it's unusual for it to take a loooong time to get a vasculitis diagnosis. I know it took my vet and I months to realize that we were dealing with something other than a persistent case of "regular" scratches and take the biopsy. In retrospect, I should have asked for one sooner, but I don't think my vet was doing anything wrong or being negligent in any way.

It does sound that you have a lot of doubts and complaints with your current vet, so in that case you are right to find a new vet. I do believe that we need to be as informed as we can in our interactions with our veterinarians. I consider it my responsibility to ask questions--be they about problems, treatments, or costs. I have had wonderful vets, but they can't read my mind, and at least one of them isn't exactly the Communicator of the Year--though he went above and beyond for me with Reuben. I know I have a reputation as "that client who asks a gazillion questions," but I also know that my vets would rather answer those questions than deal with a client who makes random decisions without any kind of understanding. Ideally, a vet would tell a client everything he or she needed to know without prompting, but vets are human, too, and I suspect there are just as many perfect vets out there as there are perfect clients. ;)

[In The Gate]

vpstevens -- PLEASE do not stop the antibiotics now that you have started them! Baytril (Enrofloxacin) is one of our antibiotics that has relatively little resistance to it at this point. If you stop the antibiotics early, you are likely to end up with antibiotic resistant bacteria. Even if these bacteria are non-pathogenic, bacteria are able to transfer resistance genes between them, and create antibiotic resistant, pathogenic bacteria.

When you, or your animal, is prescribed a course of antibiotics it is critical to take the whole course even if you're better before finishing the antibiotics.

[Auventera Two]

If someone can't afford possible medical bills for their animal they shouldn't even own the animal. Pets are not a requirement to live.

So you'd pay $28,000 to have your cat spayed? Did you know each of my 4 kidney stones cost my insurance company approximately $9,000? Two miscarriages averaging around $14,000 a piece. What if you had to pay those kind of prices for animals? THAT is what I was talking about. Vets can NOT charge what physicians charge. No way - no how. They can't even charge 1/2 or 1/4 what physicians charge! People just wouldn't pay it.

[Auventera Two]

Same old tired BS I've heard for years--people are irresponsible jackasses, but somehow, that's the *veterinarian's* fault.
Sorry.
I don't buy it anymore.

I mean seriously - if you wanted to charge physicians fees, you should have become a physician. We have never put animals on the same level as humans in this country, and nor should we.

[Ghazzu]

I mean seriously - if you wanted to charge physicians fees, you should have become a physician. We have never put animals on the same level as humans in this country, and nor should we.

Did I say that's what I wanted?
I did not.
Try rereading it.
I *did* point out that someone was bitching and moaning about a procedure that cost considerably *less* than comparable human surgery.

And the quote you referenced above was in response to your whinging that people don't want to pay for veterinary care, and then blaming the vet for that.

Hell, I'd like to get my truck repaired for free.
Sometimes the mechanic cuts me a break, but I don't go in demanding one.

[katarine]

I was thinking about this argument all morning. How about vets considering offering different levels of care specifically with regard to spay/neuter? Example I had a barn kittie show up in my pasture that was absolute skin and bones.. I think between her two vet visits for shots/spaying, it was close to 300 dollars. Granted that was spread over two visits, and she got all of her kitten shots.

That's a lot of money but I can afford it and more importantly-- it does remove her from the stray population and it eliminates her ability to reproduce. What IF a vet were to offer the pure bare bones option? Spay, rabies, and whatever other shots are absolutely required, (rabies) rather than any that are sorta on the cusp of suggested vs required? Are there any? Not a rhetorical answer this is a real one from a cat owner who just writes the check, I don't really research kitties :lol: Same with dogs... could vets offer 'basic spay/neuter package a' vs 'spa package b' to cater to those owners who relish an opportunity to pour on the dollars and 'attention' in the name of additional care, required or not...older dogs, complicated cases etc wouldn't fit the package...but misc batch of surprise kittens...would it at all make sense to consider that?

it's easy to toss around 'irresponsible pet owner' but we're (personally speaking) owners of two dogs dumped on us, the one kitty found in pasture, and one kitty I adopted from my vet after someone dumped her and her litter mates in a trash bag, in a public trash can..someone found them :( so, like so many, I'm not 'creating' these issues, these animals... but I am paying for them, and I want them to NOT make more babies, but man, at 300+ a kittie, that's a big chuck of change. It's cost prohibitive for many people to rescue any cat if it's going to be 300 bucks or more..so they ignore them and the kitty makes more kitties :(

[Ghazzu]

I was thinking about this argument all morning. How about vets considering offering different levels of care specifically with regard to spay/neuter?

Well, that opens a big can of worms.
If a DVM has certain standards at their practice--that's the way they practice because that's what they think is good medicine--how far can you expect them to compromise in the interest of saving the client money?

I can imagine dropping pre-surgical bloodwork on a young, healthy animal, but not pulse oximetry or a clean fresh surgical pack for each surgery (and yes, some low cost spay/neuter places reuse surgical packs on multiple patients).
But what if that young, healthy animal turns out to have a clotting disorder, and either bleeds out during surgery, or requires transfusions, which cost $$$ ?

Isn't the owner likely to react with, "If you had told me how important the bloodwork was, I would have paid for it" ?

If that owner files a complaint with the state board, you can bet they're going to want to know why best accepted practices weren't followed.

The DVM might be able to say, "well, the occurrence of complication X, which could be screened for by test Y is 5%", so the owner plays the odds, because test Y adds $50 to the cost.
Then complication X happens.
It's a whole different game when 100% of your dog is one of the 5%.

And then the DVM needs to put a lawyer on retainer to draw up all the informed consent for declining test Y, Z, etc. forms.

How about post-op pain medication? Is it ethical for a DVM to allow an animal to go home in greater discomfort because the owner doesn't think those are necessary/doesn't want to pay for them?

Google "standard of care" and you'll find a great deal of debate on this issue--the DVM can't win.

In the above discussions, someone complained because their DVM did cultures right off the bat.
Someone else complained because their DVM didn't do biopsies soon enough.

It's a no win situation for the DVM.


A personal experience with the "bare bones" approach--

I've neutered a *lot* of tomcats. Mostly barn cats. Most of them dumpees.
I've done many of them for low cost, or even free for equine clients. Never had a problem.

Then I did a stray that a friend had taken in as a pet, and she didn't have a lot of $$ to spend, so she asked me to neuter him.
I agreed.
During the surgery, as I was ligating the testicular artery, it tore and retracted into the abdomen.
I don't have an equipped surgical facility; hell, I've done barn cats on the farmer's porch.
So I wasn't in a position to open the little guy up from gaggle to zatch and go hunting for that bleeder.
I tried hunting for it with a hemostat, and I *think* I got it.
Then I packed off the incision site with sterile gauze, and spent the night sweating profusely.
The kitten made it, and I haven't neutered anyone's *pet* cat since.

Now. I doubt the friend would have sued, because I warned her about possible complications in general.
But if she *had*, and if she had filed a complaint with the state board, I'd have been toast.

[katarine]

Ghazzu it's a no win for anyone in medicine anywhere on any critter two legged, four, six, eight ;) You only know what you know...how about the woman who presented in my neurosurgery clinic complaining of headaches with the Bed in a Bag that fall on her in Walmart in tow. Can you spell lawsuit? I thought you could. We threw her out on the street and sent her back to her GP who referred her to us w/OUT an examination. Good Lord.

My vet offers a sheet with yes /no on pre anesthesia bloodwork, microchipping, and post op pain meds. It's plainly written and at least offers some areas of relief- I skipped the blood work (50 bucks) & microchip...and added the post op meds.

I was just thinking aloud, and as I said, I know it's far from simple.

[Auventera Two]

Did I say that's what I wanted?
I did not.
Try rereading it.
I *did* point out that someone was bitching and moaning about a procedure that cost considerably *less* than comparable human surgery.

And the quote you referenced above was in response to your whinging that people don't want to pay for veterinary care, and then blaming the vet for that.

Hell, I'd like to get my truck repaired for free.
Sometimes the mechanic cuts me a break, but I don't go in demanding one.

I never said that people "don't want to pay for veterinary care." I said that people don't want to pay astronomical pricing for vet care. And nor should they have to. As long as prices are reasonable and doable, then fine. I paid over $5,000 for my dog's leg surgery and after care when he was hit by a car. That's fine. I was glad that's "all" it cost. But if that same procedure had been $10,000 or $20,000, hell no. I would have had to euthanize.

I give all my own shots to dogs, cats, and horses shots myself. I would rather pay 11 bucks for a shot and pop it in myself, than to pay the vet 27 bucks for the same shot, plus a 25 dollar office call. Last year my friend and I were talking about spring shots and she said she'd paid around $450 for the farm call and all the spring shots for her 2 horses. :eek: I had maybe 65 dollars invested in the same shots.

But I figure if I save several hundred on shots, that's several hundred I can spend for other veterinary procedures if need be, such as in an emergency.

[TBrescue]

Both the OP and the vet are at fault IMO. The OP should have asked the vet about alternative treatment and costs. The Vet should have disclosed all associated costs with the OP PRIOR to any treatment.
Both my equine and small animal vets make this standard practice. 2 recent situations the first one with one of our dogs who was in obvious distress, uncomfortable. standing hunched over, wouldn't sit or lie down, very loud gut sounds (sounded normal for an equine, very loud for canine). We ran to the vet, they examined him and outlined their diagnosis recommendation, including bloodwork, IV fluids, xrays etc, total $575 (disclosed up front and explained item by item) we agreed to the tests due to the dogs obvious discomfort. After all was said and done there was really nothing wrong with the dog....just a case of the doggie equivalent of gastroenteritis-lots of money spent for nothing, but we had no way to know that and if the dog DIED we would have been very upset, so money well spent, more or less

Scenario #2 Horse has hives, change diet/supps, hives go away after 2 weeks except for one bump that stays and keeps getting bigger. Call the vet, vet comes out and looks at it decides it is most likely not a sarcoma or cyst and suggests 3 possible options 1) do nothing, and monitor it for changes
2) inject it with steroids and hope that does the trick 3) biopsy the lump to see exactly what it is and decide on treatment from there

I chose option #3-the lab fee was $125 for the biopsy....which was the bulk of the $200 bill
turned out to be an allergic reaction to a tick bite, which went away on it's own after the biopsy

My point is as a pet owner you need to make informed treatment decisions based on communication with your vet. You need to ask the questions even if the vet is not volunteering the info. Yes, your vet is at fault for not disclosing costs up front, but you are also at fault for not asking the right questions

[BelladonnaLily]

I had 2 dogs spayed about 4 years ago...one age 1 and one age 3. Cost was less than $200/ea. Quite honestly if it cost $800 to spay a dog, I wouldn't own more than one. Many more people wouldn't bother having them spayed than already don't. I don't know anywhere around here (central Va) where it cost anywhere close to that to do a routine spay.

I think vets can charge what they want. It is the customer's responsbility to ask. Vets will find that, like any other business, they will price themselves right out of what the average person will pay. If they are fortunate enough to live in an area that can support high-priced vets, fine. Others will either lower their prices or find another career. Simple economics. Obviously someone is paying for $600 spays.

As far as the comment about doing more spays, doing 8 spays in a day DOES NOT cost 8X what it costs to do 1 spay in a day. Much of your overhead is the same regardless of how many spays you do in a day/week/month, whatever. So you CAN make more money doing more spays.

And as far as I'm concerned, much of human healthcare is way overpriced too. Someone tell me that 1 ibuprofen really costs $8.00 :rolleyes: :lol:

[Ghazzu]

As far as the comment about doing more spays, doing 8 spays in a day DOES NOT cost 8X what it costs to do 1 spay in a day. Much of your overhead is the same regardless of how many spays you do in a day/week/month, whatever. So you CAN make more money doing more spays.



In the scenario I referenced, it *might* work out to losing *less*, but it still doesn't work out to paying the bills...

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a local tack shop owner.
I was in there one day when he had paste wormer on sale, and remarked that he was selling it at the same price I paid for it.
He told me he was selling it for less than a dollar above the price he was invoiced for, which, once you figured in overhead, was at a loss, but that it got people to come into the store, and, in most cases, they bought something else while there.

A woman called him and wanted him to ship her a case of the stuff, and, since it was a case, give her a further discount. (she may have requested free shipping as well, but I don't recall) She got very annoyed when he declined on the basis that he was already losing money on it and pointed out the ad said "in store special, quantities limited".

[Dawnd]

I haven't read every post here so I may be out of line...

We will continue to see dramatic increases in the costs that professionals need to charge as the costs of attending college then professional schools continue to go out the roof.

You just can't fathom a $50,000 annual school bill until you see it with your own eyes.

[CosMonster]

R D Lite, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't familiar with the OP's history, and was thinking just normal scratches, and I just could not figure out how to get a vet bill for that up to $2000, even if you were trying! Your explanation makes a lot more sense. :)

OP, it does sound like you've got a history of dissatisfaction with this vet, so I think you probably should change. Regardless of who is "at fault" here, if you don't trust him and think you're getting ripped off, I'd be willing to bet that neither one of you is too happy with the other.

[MistyBlue]

how about the woman who presented in my neurosurgery clinic complaining of headaches with the Bed in a Bag that fall on her in Walmart in tow.

I'd laugh a lot more if that wasn't so freaking annoying. A Bed In A Bag? I got buried under an avalanche of those at JC Penneys years ago. The one I wanted for my daughter's room in the right size was on a top shelf...being short I kept jumping up and trying to knock it down. It came down...along with everything on that shelf and the one below it. At worst...I was embarassed. But giant soft plastic baggies with poofy comforters in it just don't hurt even if they gang up on you en masse. :winkgrin:

[Lookout]

Because many people expect the FOR PROFIT organizations around the horse/pet industry to subsidize their pleasure animals, that's why. :p
Yeah, no kidding :rolleyes: .
And the more animals they accumulate, the more of a discount they expect. "It add ups" still has to be one of my all time favorite lines.

[Lookout]

Hey - you chose the profession. ;) I have no problem paying good money for vet procedures. My animals are important to me. But I also think vet clinics need to keep in mind that owners don't have insurance for pets like we do for ourself. If you start charging 2 arms and 6 legs for everything, how many people are just going to euth, or else dump the cat at a shelter instead of spaying it? Something to think about. I think if you get into vet care, you have to know that people can't aford medical bills on animals like they can on people.

Then they have no business owning animals! :eek:

[chism]

IF you can find a vet to see you on emergency. That's a pretty big if, and in the equine world, it's getting bigger by the second. You can bet I would come in early, stay late, or be there in the dark in minus 35 degree weather for a good client. For someone who doesn't get annual physical exams and only calls me at o'dark thirty on emergency? Not so much.

I have 8 horses, so the upkeep costs aren't cheap. But...this is why I don't mind the $1000 spring shot bill. It's hard on me financially, but I split it up into two visits which are better for the horses anyway. I know that I could pay less if I ordered them online, but this is my vet's livelihood and I know the income from the immunizations plays a large part in keeping the business running and the rest of the costs down. I need to know that if I call him on a Sunday with an emergency that he'll be there. In my opinion, it's a small price to pay.

[vpstevens]

Both the OP and the vet are at fault IMO. The OP should have asked the vet about alternative treatment and costs. The Vet should have disclosed all associated costs with the OP PRIOR to any treatment.
Both my equine and small animal vets make this standard practice. 2 recent situations the first one with one of our dogs who was in obvious distress, uncomfortable. standing hunched over, wouldn't sit or lie down, very loud gut sounds (sounded normal for an equine, very loud for canine). We ran to the vet, they examined him and outlined their diagnosis recommendation, including bloodwork, IV fluids, xrays etc, total $575 (disclosed up front and explained item by item) we agreed to the tests due to the dogs obvious discomfort. After all was said and done there was really nothing wrong with the dog....just a case of the doggie equivalent of gastroenteritis-lots of money spent for nothing, but we had no way to know that and if the dog DIED we would have been very upset, so money well spent, more or less

Scenario #2 Horse has hives, change diet/supps, hives go away after 2 weeks except for one bump that stays and keeps getting bigger. Call the vet, vet comes out and looks at it decides it is most likely not a sarcoma or cyst and suggests 3 possible options 1) do nothing, and monitor it for changes
2) inject it with steroids and hope that does the trick 3) biopsy the lump to see exactly what it is and decide on treatment from there

I chose option #3-the lab fee was $125 for the biopsy....which was the bulk of the $200 bill
turned out to be an allergic reaction to a tick bite, which went away on it's own after the biopsy

My point is as a pet owner you need to make informed treatment decisions based on communication with your vet. You need to ask the questions even if the vet is not volunteering the info. Yes, your vet is at fault for not disclosing costs up front, but you are also at fault for not asking the right questions


And I won't disagree with you here at all. I am at fault. I should have remembered the cost of this medication since it was part of the experiemental treatment that he put my younger mare on for trying to addres the scratches issue. At that time, I was charged $140 for the antibiotic since the concentration was only 1 gram per scoop versus 2 grams. Sadly, I put too much of my trust in my vet and have gotten out of questioning him. I really do need to gain control and should not have let him culture all three horses either. I can guarentee that there is still a pending vet bill for the lab fees in excess of $500. At the end of the day, the colds that my horses have will cost me well over $1000. I have lost trust in my vet and will only use his practice as a backup in the future. I have struggled over changing vets because they are so close and have 5 vets on staff. This means that there is always backup. The other vets in my area are all loners so if you are out of town, you are at the other vets mercy since you are not their client.

Be assured, he has been on my farm for the last time! He really is not a great vet, only one that likes to experiement to see what works for fixing the problem reported. For coggins and shots, he is perfect, beyond that, there is no talent!

[vpstevens]

IF you can find a vet to see you on emergency. That's a pretty big if, and in the equine world, it's getting bigger by the second. You can bet I would come in early, stay late, or be there in the dark in minus 35 degree weather for a good client. For someone who doesn't get annual physical exams and only calls me at o'dark thirty on emergency? Not so much.

I would love the opportunity to self vacinate but can't. My horses compete in 4H shows and they require board certified vacination records. I have a wonderful horseless youth that shows the mare that was sick in Wisconsin 4H. She finished top ten in the state with her in 2007 so if I want to continue to let her compete (which I really do), I have to pay a vet to have her vacinated. This spring, when the time arises, I might look for feed stores doing shot clinics and just haul the three of them in for having their vacines though.

Another disadvantage for moving away from this vet is that when he does my spring shots, he also give my Weimaraners their shots as well as my barn cat. He does treat all but my Macaw here on the farm. I guess I will just have to adapt to taking my dogs into the vet:cry:

[amdfarm]

I would love the opportunity to self vacinate but can't. My horses compete in 4H shows and they require board certified vacination records. I have a wonderful horseless youth that shows the mare that was sick in Wisconsin 4H. She finished top ten in the state with her in 2007 so if I want to continue to let her compete (which I really do), I have to pay a vet to have her vacinated. This spring, when the time arises, I might look for feed stores doing shot clinics and just haul the three of them in for having their vacines though.


If you like him for the basic stuff, you could always keep him around for that, but find someone else for everything else that might come up?

I wonder if 4-H rules vary from state to state. I've always self vaccinated and so have my friends. My friend's granddaughter showed in 4-H last year w/ her pony and grandpa's homebred gelding that lives w/ the grandparents, my friends, and was vaccinated when everyone else was. I'm trying to think, but I'm sure they only needed coggins and health papers to show at the county fair. Something I will definitely check on though since this will be my son's first year and I want to follow the rules.

$1000 colds, wow!! I feel for ya! Even when you can afford it, it hurts.

[Vkent]

Bessie (basenji/JRT) ingested carpet last fall, when all was said and done, the tab was over $6k, BUT they saved her when I truly believe another practice may not have been able to. The quality of care was fantastic, and them being a 24 hour hospital made all the difference...she never would have made it without the constant observation and reaction as soon as she needed it for the 3 weeks she was hospitalized (belly went septic).


We have a basenji cross too... I understand. 'Nough said? Glad she's ok!

[FatPalomino]

I haven't read every post here so I may be out of line...

We will continue to see dramatic increases in the costs that professionals need to charge as the costs of attending college then professional schools continue to go out the roof.

You just can't fathom a $50,000 annual school bill until you see it with your own eyes.

AGREED!

When I'm done with vet school, I will owe over 1/4 million dollars. And I had scholarships and grants that covered almost the entire BA degree.

I will literally have a mortgage of student loan debt that I will be paying off nearly until I retire.

It will be worth it to do what I love, but I will have to manage my practice like a business, otherwise, I won't be able to practice.

This doesn't excuse the vet in this case, who didn't notify the client how expensive the antibiotics are, in my opinion. However, I'm on a budget and always ask about expenses before hand.

[BelladonnaLily]

IF you can find a vet to see you on emergency. That's a pretty big if, and in the equine world, it's getting bigger by the second. You can bet I would come in early, stay late, or be there in the dark in minus 35 degree weather for a good client. For someone who doesn't get annual physical exams and only calls me at o'dark thirty on emergency? Not so much.


Um, I do my own shots (sometimes I pick them up from the vet, sometimes I order them). I have no problem getting emergency vet care. I certainly give them enough business on things that I can't manage on my own that they don't seem as "possessive" about shots as many on here do. There are many other routine procedures besides vaccinations. Then again, I use a well-known and reputable clinic in the area (one many people travel for bigger procedures and surgeries). Maybe some smaller or back-woods vets need the business....but I have used 3 different clinics in the area and none have had a problem with giving my own vaccinations.

[flyingchange]

you americans get things cheap. my wife just had 2 cats (that someone kindly dumped on us last summer)neutered and declawed, total bill 1180.00

Holy SH!T!!!

Your wife got "taken to the cleaners" as we say here in the usa.

[flyingchange]

IF you can find a vet to see you on emergency. That's a pretty big if, and in the equine world, it's getting bigger by the second. You can bet I would come in early, stay late, or be there in the dark in minus 35 degree weather for a good client. For someone who doesn't get annual physical exams and only calls me at o'dark thirty on emergency? Not so much.

You are exactly the type of vet that I avoid at all costs here. Yes, I do my own vaccinatins. I do not have annual exams on any of my horses. I call the vet out when necessary, and he comes ... without looking up my records to see whether I had him give my 3 ways in the spring or had my 22 year old retiree examined last year.

But I have worked with vets like you who think clients need to keep the vets happy by having them do the vax and do the annual exams, etc. They were not, how shall I put it, very inspirational at all.

As far as costs to perform hysterectomy on humans compared to cats/dogs ... when vets' malpractice insurance rates are comparable to MDs', then maybe that will be a debate worth having.

[CowboyShoePolish]

A vet in a small market might cost more aka less competition. A vet with many competitors might be more reasonable. A vet with many vet 'friends' might all charge the same price +/-. Although new to horse ownership, the discussions of patronizing vets and the cost always brings me back to our ancestors. Just because we have antibiotics available doesn't mean it's the best option for the horse or us. Antibiotics will kill good organisms also. I think, ....being careful now....:lol:, I think we should make ourselves more empowered to solves these issues as our ancestors did. We need to learn more self sufficient ways and less "let someone else worry about the problem, after all it's just money", way.

[MistyBlue]

I'm not sure if all state's are the same...but I know here in CT we cannot do rabies shots on our own. It *has* to be done by a vet.
So since I have the vet out for the rabies and am already paying the barn call fee...I have the rest of the shots given then too. And the teeth floated. Also not sure if it's the same in other states...but I've met some of the Equine Dentists around here that don't have vet degrees. I wouldn't let them on the same property with my horses. There's one or two decent ones...but I have a horse that freaks out about anyone going in her mouth...dentists without being a vet cannnot legally tranq that horse. (not saying some don't do it illegally...and then there's the few who claim they can calm any horse without it...tell me about it when you're hanging from my barn rafters and my horse is a quivering terrified mess, she's really bad about floating)
Sooo...since rabies and teeth are done by the vet...I use my vet regularly. I also like having an annual wellness exam. Or bi-annual. There have been times things were caught that the horse was not showing any signs of during a wellness exam. Had I wanted to save a few bucks doing the shots all myself...the last issue caught during the wellness exam could have cost my mare her life. Around here it's the barn call fee that costs...you need the vet out for rabies anyways so might as well have the other shots done. Vets aren't thrilled if a horse has a reaction to a shot administered by an owner and the vet is then called out to 'fix it.'
I can understand vets not giving non-regulars priority during emergency calls. Quite a few vets have told me how the non-clients who call them for emergencies make up the bulk of the non-payers, or partial payers. (they'll pay some monthly a few times and then drop off the face of the earth) Sure...we'd all love to think that every vet and doctor was independently wealthy and was doctoring for purely the "good" of it...but as hard as it is for many people to accept, they need to make an income. And frankly large animal vets are already drastically underpaid. They deal with the most dangerously large animals, in the worst conditions/surrounding, usually at the worst time and worst weather for the nuttiest of all animal owners. (horse people are by and large nucking futs...that's something we should all be able to admit to)

[eurofoal]

I don't know any other business where a professional does not want to be asked about charges beforehand, where clients are so discouraged from participating.

I nearly quit horses when I lived in Apple Valley, Ca, because of the vets. There were only 2 of them, and nobody else would come out on farm calls. My dear vet, "Dr Death" had a POLICY of not going on call without racking up at least $200 worth of charges. So, essentially, your bill would be at least $200, no matter what. It was outragous and very, very discouraging. Horses are so expensive anyway, then the vet bills equal more than nearly any other bills we have.

I learned to do nearly everything myself, and that saved me thousands a year.

[Ghazzu]

As far as costs to perform hysterectomy on humans compared to cats/dogs ... when vets' malpractice insurance rates are comparable to MDs', then maybe that will be a debate worth having.

One more time--the cost difference is *not* due solely to insurance premiums. $5K a patient ?*That* is laughable.

As for the differences in liability insurance premiums, they are nowhere near those of MDs. but they are climbing fast.
The law profession has begun to refer to veterinarians as "an untapped resource".

[enjoytheride]

Here our local low cost spay neuter clinic does it for $20 a cat or $40 a dog. A 5 in 1 for a dog is $14 and a 4 in 1 for a cat is $14.

Their goal was to establish a high volume low cost spay/neuter clinic to reduce pet overpopulation and the misery and death that unwanted animals face on the streets or in the animal shelters. By providing low cost vaccines and surgery it is more likely that people who could not afford a regular vet will take care of their animals. They do 50 surgeries a day and are a 501 (c) (3) not for profit.

They maintain that they are not a substitue for a regular vet and will suggest a vet office if you need anything besides spay/vaccine/deworm/flea treatment.

[Ghazzu]

I can't imagine justifying charging people $600 plus to speuter a dog or cat! Here our local low cost spay neuter clinic does it for $20 a cat or $40 a dog. A 5 in 1 for a dog is $14 and a 4 in 1 for a cat is $14.

Their goal was to establish a high volume low cost spay/neuter clinic to reduce pet overpopulation and the misery and death that unwanted animals face on the streets or in the animal shelters. By providing low cost vaccines and surgery it is more likely that people who could not afford a regular vet will take care of their animals. They do 50 surgeries a day and are a 501 (c) (3) not for profit.

They maintain that they are not a substitue for a regular vet and will suggest a vet office if you need anything besides spay/vaccine/deworm/flea treatment.

You've just described socialized medicine.
It's subsidized.
The costs are there--they're just not passed along to the pet owner.
Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't mean that the taxpaying private practice owner is overcharging when their fee is higher.

[marta]

the fact remains that my vet charges $100 to spay a cat and sends the cat home the same day while the vet down the street charges $300 and insists on keeping the cat for three days.

i think we're generally lucky in new jersey b/c we do have a lot of small and large animal (horse anyway) vets to choose from.

and for what its worth, in my experience, just b/c you're dealing with a larger fancy type of a clinic doesn't mean that you don't get a response to your emergencies. in fact, i dumped the econo line clinic which is located about 5 minutes from our barn b/c of their lackadaisical approach to treatment and to keeping appointments or showing up for emergency calls.

[enjoytheride]

Ah, you caught me before I edited my post!

First, nothing wrong with socialized health care (can of worms).

Second, I think it shows that there is a way to provide affordable pet care to people who would not be likely to do it if it cost more. Sure, there are plenty of vets who would not be willing to work there and not make any money (or think the care is substandard), and there are plenty of pet owners who would much rather take their pet to a different type of facility.

For example, I took both my cats to this clinic to have them fixed and get their vaccinations. But when my "dumped out of a car" cat developed a tumor I went to one of the better vets in the city for the surgery. He has FIV and I wanted a cat specialist to take care of him. Plus, he got a take home bag with his own catnip hand-knitted mouse.

[mairzeadoats]

There are numerous costs associated with human medicine, beyond malpractice, that don't compare with veterinary. My guess is hospital physicians make more than vets. Nurse's salaries are several-fold higher than vet techs. The overhead costs have got to be much higher. Government regulations and requirements around information management, operating procedures, reporting, etc. are presumably stricter, more resource-intense and therefore more expensive. Space requirements, other than for large animals, are greater. Food for in-patients is more expensive. The animals don't require tv in their rooms. And so on. So trying to compare the costs directly doesn't make sense.

There needs to be reasonable discussion between vet and client around treatment options. If you can't trust your vet to be open and honest about associated costs and risks, particularly with "experimental" treatments or new wonder drugs, then it's time to find a new vet.

[Ghazzu]

There are numerous costs associated with human medicine, beyond malpractice, that don't compare with veterinary. My guess is hospital physicians make more than vets.

Yes, but you don't see loads of folks on here moaning about that the way they do about their vet's perceived outrageous fees.


Nurse's salaries are several-fold higher than vet techs.

Hence the recent threads here where vet techs have complained that they couldn't make a living on their wages and got otu of the profession.
Trained personnel leaving a field is not a good thing.


Food for in-patients is more expensive.
and worse-tasting, IME.


The animals don't require tv in their rooms.

Last time I looked, television was not a required component of a surgical ovariohysterectomy in the human.


There needs to be reasonable discussion between vet and client around treatment options.
If you can't trust your vet to be open and honest about associated costs and risks, particularly with "experimental" treatments or new wonder drugs, then it's time to find a new vet.

I have no beef with that statement at all.
In the original case on this thread, the OP ought to have asked about the cost, and the DVM ought to have mentioned it upfront.

As for the $600 spay, I'm still wondering about 2 aspects of it:
1) did the owner not get presented with an estimate for the surgery beforehand? If so, and it was close, where's the issue? If not, did they not inquire?
and
2) if so, and it was lower than that,were there complications that necessitated going beyond the estimate?

[rcloisonne]

MistyBlue,
I agree with your post 100%. Rabies shots are required by law here (RI) for all warm blooded animals that come in contact with humans. They must be given by a licenced vet too. I'm sure I could save a few bucks by giving the other shots myself but prefer my vets do it (plus I need that Coggins :))

Large animal vets are the real unsung heroes in our culture. I wouldn't dream of nickle and diming mine. They don't live large at all and quite frankly, I'm surprised they even stay in the business. Considering their intelligence (and let's face it, you need to be a genius to get through vet school), they could be doing many other things for a lot more money, far less intrusion in their personal lives and much better working conditions.

With very few exceptions, equine vets ROCK!!!

[MistyBlue]

For emergency calls...I've yet to have one that cost less than $200...heck, I'd be thrilled with one that cost $200. The emergency barn call fee alone is usually over $100 for just coming to the location. If it's truly an emergency, I can't think of any treatment and diagnosis to address that being less than $100 to keep it under $200. Heck, if I had to awaken at 3 am and rush off to a barn in subzero weather to treat a very large, very upset, very strong patient who's not going to be happy to see me...I'd want a hella lot more than $200. Back in my youth I made a lot more than that a night as a bartender...and I didn't have a doctorate, I worked indoors and it was heated or air conditioned, got to listen to really loud music...yeah, some of my clients back then might have fallen on me or kicked me but it's probably not as bad as having a 1000 lb horse do that. :winkgrin:
Also, around here if you get an emergency vet call in the middle of the night...you get the vet. The vet doesn't go wake up their travelling tech help and drag them along too. Now the vet is stuck at 0'dark thirty in subzero weather, a painful 1000 lb animal and an hysterical owner as their only help.
I have a small house on a small property...I don't have a doctorate...few large animal vets in my area can afford the little I have. Sorry, but vets aren't exactly like human surgeons...you're not going to see large animal vets belonging to exclusive private country clubs relaxing on their incomes. I think some people just might not realize that a large animal vet doesn't make much of anything at all in income for one helluva tough and crappy job. I know folks who sit at a desk in an insurance company taking calls making more than large animal vets.
And when it comes down to it...a horse is a luxury pet. I've never understood threads that devolve into equine businesses "trying to make money off us poor horse owners." Sure...we all know that owning a horse doesn't make us wealthy...but in truth they are NOT inexpensive hobbies/pets/sport animals. How can we honestly want to own a completely unnecessary animal we *all* know costs a bloody fortune in certain areas (such as vet care, feeding, shoeing, etc...no other pet costs as much unless you're into tigers or rhinos or something) and then whine about the cost we get charged for boarding, training, health care, shoeing....as if these things are a surprise after the fact. It's not up to the vets who paid a bloody fortune for their degrees to help us who want a hobby or sport animal afford it more easily.
Sure I've been shocked and dismayed over the amount of many vet bills...but I'm shocked and dismayed over what it's costing my household...not because of what I think the vet will make. I pretty much know my vets aren't gleefully rubbing their hands together after billing me and making a call to order themselves a new Ferrari with their new "bonus."

[BelladonnaLily]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;2995567]Yes, but you don't see loads of folks on here moaning about that the way they do about their vet's perceived outrageous fees.



Probably because its a horse bulletin board. Just my guess ;)

[BelladonnaLily]

Hence the recent threads here where vet techs have complained that they couldn't make a living on their wages and got otu of the profession.
Trained personnel leaving a field is not a good thing.


and worse-tasting, IME.





Doesn't change the fact that right now, the average nurse (RN) is making 50K or more per year (in many cases, alot more) and the average vet tech makes, what, 18K?

What they SHOULD make has no relevance to this particular discussion.

There is NO comparison between vet and human medicine cost-wise. Apples and oranges all the way.

[Thomas_1]

I never said that people "don't want to pay for veterinary care." I said that people don't want to pay astronomical pricing for vet care. And nor should they have to. As long as prices are reasonable and doable, then fine. I paid over $5,000 for my dog's leg surgery and after care when he was hit by a car. That's fine. I was glad that's "all" it cost. But if that same procedure had been $10,000 or $20,000, hell no. I would have had to euthanize. Your argument is irrational and flawed. You can't suggest that $5,000 was reasonable and doable but anything costing $10,000 to $20,000 is astronomical.

My presumption would be that the surgery at $5,000 required less - either in terms of time, effort, equipment, drugs, tests, pre-care, after-care of whatever.

The issue isn't whether the pricing is "astronomical" rather its about the owner's ability to afford and pay for the treatment. And you can't put the burden of responsibility for that onto the vet.

For those who are concerned about money they have choices:

1 Just accept there might be circumstances where they have to decide to not have the optimum treatment or even have the animal put down because they can't afford it.

2 Get health care insurance to provide cover for potential expensive veterinary treatment

3 Don't have a pet

I give all my own shots to dogs, cats, and horses shots myself. I would rather pay 11 bucks for a shot and pop it in myself, than to pay the vet 27 bucks for the same shot, plus a 25 dollar office call. Last year my friend and I were talking about spring shots and she said she'd paid around $450 for the farm call and all the spring shots for her 2 horses. :eek: I had maybe 65 dollars invested in the same shots. All well and good if you're confident you know what you're doing. Are certain you're purchasing bonafide drugs. Know you don't need advice on such as contraindication or risks of combining vaccines for such as in an ex foundered horse. If you don't need a vaccination certificate because you're not competing.

You also need to consider that you have the potential to build up a lot of mutual trust and respect with your vet when you deal with him/her. Vets are human too and you can't blame the vet if some day he/she chooses to dash out first to the good customer who uses him for routine work rather than the one who's always bitching and moaning about the cost of vaccine and call out etc and who only ever phones when its the dead of night and some awful and difficult job to do.

[Thomas_1]

Here our local low cost spay neuter clinic does it for $20 a cat or $40 a dog. A 5 in 1 for a dog is $14 and a 4 in 1 for a cat is $14.

Their goal was to establish a high volume low cost spay/neuter clinic to reduce pet overpopulation and the misery and death that unwanted animals face on the streets or in the animal shelters. By providing low cost vaccines and surgery it is more likely that people who could not afford a regular vet will take care of their animals. They do 50 surgeries a day and are a 501 (c) (3) not for profit.

They maintain that they are not a substitue for a regular vet and will suggest a vet office if you need anything besides spay/vaccine/deworm/flea treatment. So that's a subsidised social service. Most likely a charitable set up.

[Auventera Two]

Then they have no business owning animals! :eek:

So you'd pay for your dog's neuter if it cost $5,000? Your husband's neuter costs double that! :eek:

Doubtful. ;) :lol:

If that's the kind of prices we had to pay - NONE of us would own any animals, then they'd be out of business. Vicious little circle isn't it? :lol:

[mairzeadoats]

Yes, but you don't see loads of folks on here moaning about that the way they do about their vet's perceived outrageous fees.?

Well, now, you know if they did the thread would be closed as NHR :D


Hence the recent threads here where vet techs have complained that they couldn't make a living on their wages and got otu of the profession.
Trained personnel leaving a field is not a good thing..?

No argument there. A couple years ago I looked into (actually was accepted into) vet tech school. While researching the expense of education versus potential salary, decided that the math just didn't add up.

and worse-tasting, IME...
No argument there either. But then, I didn't say they were getting good value for their money. Maybe the hospitals should be more like horsepitals, and start offering up beet pulp w/bran mashes for breakfast, with a sprinkling of omalene? Carrots for the good patients that behave, don't scream, kick or whine, while we're at it. ;)




Last time I looked, television was not a required component of a surgical ovariohysterectomy in the human...?
I haven't been overnight in a hospital since I had my tonsils out many decades ago. For some reason, though, I seem to think of hospital rooms as always having a tv. Not a requirement for the surgery...but seems to be considered one for human recovery.

[Tory Relic]

I haven't been overnight in a hospital since I had my tonsils out many decades ago. For some reason, though, I seem to think of hospital rooms as always having a tv. Not a requirement for the surgery...but seems to be considered one for human recovery.

You have to pay extra for the TV, and in some places, to have a telephone in your room.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;2995567]Yes, but you don't see loads of folks on here moaning about that the way they do about their vet's perceived outrageous fees.

QUOTE]

I have heard ala grapevine endless nastiness about our hay business...mostly from the local people who believe anything above $2 is a rape in progress...

I did hear something yesterday that knocked me over...at a basketball game in a small town called Clarkrange (on the N Hwy to the Big South Fork) a rude not from here feller overheard one of our clients talking about our barn fire....he turned his dumpy butt around and said "he cheats everyone with those high prices and he DESERVES to have his barns burnt"

well....he had opened his mouth to the wrong person;)

our client then asked him if he had ever bought hay from us...
no...
he then said "I have bought his hay and I know him and he has never ever beat me on a load of hay not ever...oh and by the way did you pay for two seats seeing as how that chair you bring in here takes up two slots??? ....

he and his friend (who is the uncle of one of our landlords and said landlord also supplies us with litter) togther put "Mr. Hateful" on the road...right there in the middle of the basketball game...the men who had stood up for us are both in their middle 60's...and have seen lots of hay and been lots of places in this world...I do wonder how many others just go along and feed in with it...even among our clients

when we first started local people said "no one will ever pay $4 for a bale of hay....now 11 years later the same slack jaws say "why, they are trying to put the small farmer out of business"...now our barns deserve to burn...I just could not believe it...

so this is a long winded way of saying that everyone deserves a fair price for what they provide...vets or vet techs or farriers or braiders or hay people...

Tamara in TN

[hey101]

I don't begrudge someone charging what they feel they have to charge to run their business and actually make a profit. As a consumer, I have the choice to continue using that service provider (whether it be a vet, boarding barn, trainer, farrier, etc) or make the decision that the quality/cost/service is not worth TO ME what that person is charging- and find someone who WILL work for me.

The OP has already stated she should have asked about the cost of the drugs. It's all part of being an educated consumer. You know the saying about fools and their money... (not saying the OP is a fool, if anything I'd say you got a lot of education from this experience!)

I certainly don't go to work every morning out of the goodness of my heart. I expect to be paid for my knowledge, and if I didn't I'd be looking for a new job in a heartbeat. There is no reason a vet/ farrier/ (insert profession here) shouldn't expect to be paid for their knowledge.