They just got into the sweet feed and ate 50lb !!

[birdsong]

At the neighbor's house where I had them on pasture. Opened the gate and then opened the big wooden feed bin in her barn and ate the entire bag. I suspect that my paint ate the majority after the other one opened the box.

Give me ideas what to watch for please!! Going to make a bran mash and fill it with oil....I'm worried not only about colic but founder.

Will be checking on them all evening. If a colic happens how long would it take...and the same with heat in the feet.

I'll be bringing them home for the evening and will check back shortly...

Thanks so much...I'm worried.

[CAH]

Call vet now. Do not wait. Let them tell you what to do.

[eventmom]

My guys did that about two weeks ago. It's a long story! Anyway, my farrier told me to watch for heat in the feet. But the thing is, they go through natural cycles of heat and cooling anyway. So, not to panic over warmth, until you come back in a 1/2 hour and they are still warm. I was lucky because the ground was ice. So I just threw hay out in the pasture, and I didn't have to ice their feet. I suspect you may not be so lucky. Definitly, if your ground is snow or ice, you want them on it.
Of course you have banomine on hand?
Most of your potential issues should happen within the first 24 hours.
Oh, also listen for gut sounds and keep an eye on how much they are drinking and pooping. If anybody gets clogged up, you will want to start walking them, and call the vet.
That's what I know!
Good luck and hope you get as lucky as I did.
I would not want to re live those 24 hours of panic and stress:eek:

[BuddyRoo]

Call vet now to give them a heads up.

If it were me, I'd give banamine now. Will help with pain and inflammation.

Founder is a real concern--you want to PREVENT it, not TREAT it.

So I'd be doing banamine.

No grain for a few days...just hay. And exercise.

check for heat and digital pulse.

But I'd start the banamine stat.

[Diamondindykin]

Call the vet NOW!!

My horses did this several years ago and they had to all be oiled & charcoaled. It was touch and go for several days but I think that getting immediate veterianary care is what saved them from founder.

[Simkie]

Call the vet. ASAP. They can tube the horses with activated charcoal, which is supposed to help. One of the bio-sponge products might help as well.

If you are worried about the feet, the vet may instruct you to stand the horses buckets of ice water. I know this was done with an old trainer's mare. The only foot that wound up with founder issues (rotation? It's been awhile) was the one the mare would not put in the bucket.

[Diamondindykin]

If you are worried about the feet, the vet may instruct you to stand the horses buckets of ice water. I know this was done with an old trainer's mare. The only foot that wound up with founder issues (rotation? It's been awhile) was the one the mare would not put in the bucket.

When my horses got into the grain the vet put wedges on the horse that we suspected of getting the most after tubing them with oil and charcoal.

[Blu]

CALL THE VET!

Even if he/she doesn't come out, they are aware of the situation if you need to make the call in the middle of the night.

I wouldn't hand walk since acute laminitis is also a concern! As long as no one lays down and starts rolling, I would not handwalk.

I would seriously call the vet ASAP and get these guys oiled. Tis better to be safe than sorry!!!

[sweetwater]

Please call a vet, we lost a horse this way 4 years ago and it was devastating. My ex wouldn't call the vet out until there were symptoms, and by then it was too late. We had to put him down 2 months later, as his coffin bone went thru the sole. Was not my horse or I would have done things very differently.

[gabz]

Call the vet. They can administer charcoal and oil to get the feed out!!!

How many horses on the 50 pounds? That's a terrible thing to happen.

BEst wishes. keep us posted?

Since you are in Ft Myers,. FL... doubtful you have ice and snow.
Tie them in a pen with sand or shavings, FLOOD the sand or shavings. KEEP THEIR FEET COLD.
CALL the vet.

DO what you have to do NOW so you don't have to do it later - when it's worse!

[pearl's mom]

CALL THE VET NOW!!!!!! Get him standing in ice. Had this happen many years ago to my beautiful QH mare. Do not wait for symptoms of founder. You must be proactive.

[Bank of Dad]

Agree, happened to me and I insisted on having vet out to tube with oil and just gave a little old hay for several days. Made my kid pay the vet bill since he had been too lazy to put the feed away.

[Duramax]

Going to make a bran mash and fill it with oil....I'm worried not only about colic but founder.



Jingles for you birdsong! Also, if you decide to do the bran mash with oil remember that only mineral oil will help with anything- any other oil will be digested, not what you need right now! I hope they're ok.

[birdsong]

Oh thanks so much for the replies....walked them home from the neighbors pasture. I'm pretty sure my QH opened the pasture gate and the wooden feed bin but the paint is a bully so he probably took over from there.

Have a call in to the vet now...gave them both bran with mineral oil...each got a little less than 1/2 of the oil down.

Wish we did have some snow/ice on the ground!! its 78 degrees out right now...
Unfortunately my banamine is out of date....

Have the trailer hooked up and will likely be taking a trip to the Vet tonight.

Darn..not what I need right now while out of a job!!

[JB]

Really good reason to have a few tubes of UAA gel on hand at all times.

[pearl's mom]

Best of luck. Have been thinking of you and your horse since I read this earlier. Glad you've got a call into the vet.

[jenkoby]

My little Qh mare has done this twice. Both times vet tubed her with activated charcoal and we didn't have any problems. I think it was relatively cheaper than what could have been.

[Ghazzu]

At the neighbor's house where I had them on pasture. Opened the gate and then opened the big wooden feed bin in her barn and ate the entire bag. I suspect that my paint ate the majority after the other one opened the box.

Give me ideas what to watch for please!! Going to make a bran mash and fill it with oil....I'm worried not only about colic but founder.

Will be checking on them all evening. If a colic happens how long would it take...and the same with heat in the feet.

I'll be bringing them home for the evening and will check back shortly...

Thanks so much...I'm worried.


CALL THE VET.
NOW.
This is not a wait and see scenario.

[meredithbarlow]

CALL THE VET.
NOW.
This is not a wait and see scenario.

AGREE!!! There are many things the vet can do that you cannot to PREVENT problems, many won't be treatable after they become issues!

[Milocalwinnings]

If you didn't read the latest post by the OP, she did put a call into the vet and has the trailer hooked up if they need to head out.:yes:

[Bogie]

Jingles for your horses! One time the Agway delivery guy dropped a 50 lb bag of pellets in one of our paddocks and was too scared of the horses to get it out :no:. Obviously, they ate it (three horses). Luckily it was Strider and it didn't cause any problem. But I've never bought another thing from them.

It's a shame you're in Florida -- a bit of snow on the ground would help. In the meantime, I'd ice their feet and hope for the best.

[birdsong]

with a nice coating of mineral oil on my arms!!

Coal the QH seems to be fine while Tommy the paint is having a few issues. I really think he ate the majority of the feed and then I gave them bran with mineral oil...followed by the vet giving him 2 gallons of liquids. He quickly broke into a sweat and began cramping. The vet had to remove 1/2 gallon from his stomach ...thought he was cramping from too much in the stomach...said that had only happened once 15 years ago.

So I stayed there and walked him and watched him until he eased a bit, but he still is uncomfortable. Vet said his heart isn't racing though and gut sounds are good.
At this point I'll probably sleep in a lawn chair near him.

Didn't say anything about icing his feet...he was given the pink stuff (I forget the name) in addition to the charcoal and oil which is to help with that I believe.

So pray that our night goes smoothly and the days to come. I really fear founder since the misdiagnosis with Coal a few years back.

Thanks for your concerns.

[El Tovar]

give Banamine to them?

IF not, they really should at least get a half dose for the anti-endotoxin effect-wards off founder.

I would personally ice the feet-still.

Do you have good probiotics? If so, give them, that will help the gut stay stable and not become too acidic-which is when laminitis happens-

Jingles~!

[amdfarm]

Oh my, what an ordeal your boys got into! Jingles for Coal and Tommy!!

Keep us posted!

[Claddagh]

Jingling away here for a good outcome.

How did the night go? Hopefully all is well so far.

[goodgal]

Birdsong,

Let me know if you need any help, I'm not too far from you. Prayers going your way!

[Buffyblue]

How scary! I hope they're going to be OK!

[wildREDhorse]

How are kiddos this morning? Hopefully last night went OK after they had their mineral oil. *jingles*

[caballus]

What a scary situation for you. You want to keep them moving as much as possible ... not only will that help to move things through their system but will also help their hooves keep functioning, as well. Wanna keep the circulation going through the hooves to help prevent lactic acid buildup that will cause laminitis/foundering. They should be moving all day/night. Also, if you're interested in a Homeopathic Remedy which will help the body get back into balance to be able to withstand this, let me know. I'd be happy to give you the name of something that would help tremendously.

[Auventera Two]

Great suggestions from everyone. If it were my personal horses, in addition to all the great vet work that's been done, I would pad the feet with Sole Mates, EVAs, or at least builder's styrofoam for a few days, and keep the horse moving. The pads offer complete sole support, which is a good prevention just in case the horse founders. You can even use those kneeling pads you get in the garden section. Just cut them to about 1/4" larger than the hoof and duct tape on thoroughly, vet wrap, then duct tape again. It won't hurt anything at all, and will only help if you do have hoof inflammation. It will alleviate any pin point pressure from stepping on hard frozen or rocky ground.

[katarine]

Went through this with a 2 YO who ate most of a bale of alfalfa, (something she never gets) an indeterminate amount of whole corn, and about a half a sack of feed. lovely.

Vet administered a good bit of oil into her tummy (feels like thick mud in there, he says. Great! NOT). and quite a number of injections- pain meds, and meds to help offset the toxic effect of such a huge caloric and whatnot rush on her entire system...and no feed or anything else but fresh water for 48 hours. Locked her in my arena for two days and she was fine. Miraculous.

I can't fathom recommending forced continuous movement, honestly. If you , tiring, dehydrating...and not anything my guy recommended. Just my opinion.

Jingles he eases up soon.

[Ghazzu]

It isn't lactate buildup in the feet that causes laminitis.

And I'd for sure be icing those feet.

[jherold]

When my horses did a similar thing, my vet told me to give 1/2 dose of banamine 12 hrs apart for a total of 3 doses to get the full anti-endotoxin effect to ward off founder. I was to give it even if they were comfortable.

[birdsong]

I stayed up til the wee hours checking on them and then flew out at daylight to find them happily munching away...(thank you , Lord)

No feed for several days!! Taking them back to their 5 acre pasture of grass...you wouldn't believe how nice this pasture is. My place is small so I'm enjoying not only the grass for them but that they move around a lot more.

Yes they both received banamine and I brought home more since mine was out of date.

Sorry to say that I didn't ice down Tommy's feet and hopefully won't regret that....should figure out the logistics of that for future reference if needed....like how long etc. Ideas? Is it still helpful to do it if there is heat?

So I guess I need to watch for signs of lameness now for the next few weeks.
Thanks again for your concerns and all input is appreciated.

[birdsong]

a few of the post that I missed...good idea about continuing the banamine...don't think it would hurt at least and I have some on hand.

Fortunately we don't have to be concerned about hard ground, rocks and such in our area. The large pasture was just mowed ...it was 3 ' of thick grass and now is just fluffy with dried stuff. I will certainly put on a pad of sorts (along with calling the vet and farrier) at the very first signs of lameness.

Curious if I should still consider icing at this juncture?

My GSD now has raging diarrhea from sneaking the last of the bran with mineral oil....she usually prefers to stay outdoors but she was struggling to come in last night for some reason feeling very clingy....Oh My!! She smelled worse than bad baby diapers!! Just what I needed following me around. She's getting a bath and yoguert with her meal for awhile.

And I might as well b^&$% about the cat sleeping on my head with the few bits of shut-eye I got while I'm at it. I dreamed about boat motors with her motor running in my ear. Too kind hearted to pitch her out...

I feel like my animals are running amok and out of control!! Am I sounding a bit testy today?? A nap is in order soon.
Thanks again all...

[FatPalomino]

In this case, my laminitis-specialty vet recommends:
Banamine for the endotoxins, 2.5 cc 4x daily
Bio Sponge, 3 times daily, 2-3 scoops for a big horse
No grain for a week
Watch closely for laminitis for several days after incident.

She said studies have shown the horses feet have to be in ice nonstop for it to be effective.

My personal horse got out when I was getting to work early one day last week. We quantified about 35-40 pounds of senior, sweet feed grain he ate. He normally only gets a fraction of the 'lite' grain.

I started him right on Bio Sponge (by Platinum Performance). They hate the taste of it so I mix it with a small amount of beet pulp or bran mash- something wet. I did soak his feet for a good hour the first day.

There is a debate about the effects of Acepromazine in these cases. I did give him Ace for the first day. I gave him Banamine for 4 days afterwards. He hasn't shown any signs of being sore, at all. In fact, the Banamine has made him feel great!

I did treat the other horse, that *may* have also gotten into the grain, with Banamine and Biosponge for 3 days. Better safe than sorry.

My vet said they can get the same amount of hay (although I did feed less for the first 24 hours), but it is a grass hay. I don't know if I'd be turning them out on a grass pasture that they're not used to.

[birdsong]

First I've heard of Bio-Sponge...looking for a local source now but doubt that I can get it locally...ordering would take several days.

Will continue with the banamine...thanks FP (I still invision you as a plump blonde!!! teehee)

[FatPalomino]

First I've heard of Bio-Sponge...looking for a local source now but doubt that I can get it locally...ordering would take several days.

Will continue with the banamine...thanks FP (I still invision you as a plump blonde!!! teehee)

Check with local vets... several carried it, as well as the vet supply store and vet hospital.
I got an amazing deal (compared to vet pricing) from my friends at Mtn Vet supply- they ship and can ship quick if you need it. This time I bought the 21 pound tub for maybe $50.... last time the 2 lb tub at the vets cost $35! Call Mountain Vet- 800-331-5544- and tell them Margaret sent you!

I'm not quite the plump blond yet... but I could change my screen-name to "Chunky Bay!" hehe!

[caballus]

It isn't lactate buildup in the feet that causes laminitis.

And I'd for sure be icing those feet.
From Safer Grass: "The most commonly acknowledged cause of laminitis is grain overload. If more sugar or starch is present than the stomach can digest, it overflows into the cecum, or ‘hindgut’ where fermentation of fiber by microorganisms takes place. Because each type of carbohydrate has specific microorganisms involved in fermentation, this overflow of sugar and starch causes a sudden change in the population dynamics of the gut microbes. Lactic acid bacteria (LAB), that prefer sugar and starch, have a population explosion. There is some disagreement as to which mechanism is responsible for causing the laminitis. It is probable that several mechanisms are involved. The increase in lactic acid formed by the fermentation by LAB causes a massive die off the microbes that were there before. Some used to think this caused endo-toxemia from the massive die off of bacteria and subsequent absorption of the by products from their breakdown. However, recently researchers have found that administration of endotoxins alone do NOT induce laminitis. [20] Other pathogenic bacteria, such as Streptococcus bovis have been implicated, for which starch and fructan are preferred substrates. (Longland and Pollitt) Researchers at the Royal Veterinary College in London have found amine compounds in the hind gut of horses on grass that could trigger vascular changes that occur at the onset of laminitis. [2] [3]" --safergrass.org

[caballus]

I can't fathom recommending forced continuous movement, honestly. If you , tiring, dehydrating...and not anything my guy recommended. Just my opinion.

Jingles he eases up soon.

In my (professional) experience I advise encouraging movement. I've found that the horses who do move around more will have less severe development of furthering laminitis than those who are confined to a stall. "Encouraging" means to turn out the horse, with a buddy, to dry lot and spreading hay all around as far away from the water supply as possible so the horse has to walk to graze and drink. Or/and taking the horse for walks, in hand, several times a day for about 10 mins. or so each time. The horses are not yet to an acute stage of laminitis. (and maybe, hopefully they won't get there and this is what we're trying to avoid.) I agree with Aventura as to the pads of some sort. Icing the hooves is also a deterrent to further development of laminitis so can be integrated into the care.

[Ghazzu]

From Safer Grass: "The most commonly acknowledged cause of laminitis is grain overload. If more sugar or starch is present than the stomach can digest, it overflows into the cecum, or ‘hindgut’ where fermentation of fiber by microorganisms takes place. Because each type of carbohydrate has specific microorganisms involved in fermentation, this overflow of sugar and starch causes a sudden change in the population dynamics of the gut microbes. Lactic acid bacteria (LAB), that prefer sugar and starch, have a population explosion. There is some disagreement as to which mechanism is responsible for causing the laminitis. It is probable that several mechanisms are involved. The increase in lactic acid formed by the fermentation by LAB causes a massive die off the microbes that were there before. Some used to think this caused endo-toxemia from the massive die off of bacteria and subsequent absorption of the by products from their breakdown. However, recently researchers have found that administration of endotoxins alone do NOT induce laminitis. [20] Other pathogenic bacteria, such as Streptococcus bovis have been implicated, for which starch and fructan are preferred substrates. (Longland and Pollitt) Researchers at the Royal Veterinary College in London have found amine compounds in the hind gut of horses on grass that could trigger vascular changes that occur at the onset of laminitis. [2] [3]" --safergrass.org

Nothing in the above citation states that lactate accumulation in the hoof induces laminitis. Lactate is not an amine.

[katarine]

They should be moving all day/night.


That's not (IMO) the same thing as turnout in a lot with a buddy and scattering hay. I read it as walk that sucker 24/7 which isn't a good idea. and in my (vet's) professional opinion, not something he recommended.

Lactic acid? Build up? in the feet??

Carry on ;)

Birdsong we'll take crabby with an oily butted horse and dog over crabby and worried with the oily fannied pone pone back at the vet ;) Sounds like you're headed out of the woods after all

[sketcher]

She said studies have shown the horses feet have to be in ice nonstop for it to be effective.



I had a mare break through her stall door and get into the grain about 1.5 years ago. She ate about 40 lbs at about 10-11 am.

First she colicked. I literally had to walk her all night because she was uncomfortable enough to want to roll. I thought I was out of the woods but then she started showing signs of laminitis in all foru feet(about 20 hours later) . I built a pool with dirt - I had a mudpatch so I banked the dirt in a big circle around her and filled the 'pool' with water from the hose and as many bags of ice as one of my friends could buy up at every store within a 5 mile radius - we probably used 78-80 bags of ice total. We stood her in the icewater for 14 hours straight, the water only went partway up her fetlocks although I could see swelling up her legs. She was picked up by someone and trailered to a new barn at the end of that 14 hours (long story) but heard that she ended up fine. The ice water appeared to have worked wonders. I don't think I could have stood her in 4 water buckets but she could have stood in the pool indefinitely.

She had the vet, the banimine, some oil although not enough because the vet could not tube her. I think the non-stop icewater saved her. If I ever had another horse with a case of acute laminitis I would repeat the same excersize

[caballus]

ghazzu and katerine: Let me rephrase what I wrote as you've misunderstood. I wrote, "Wanna keep the circulation going through the hooves to help prevent lactic acid buildup that will cause laminitis/foundering." I should have written "keep the ciruclation going through the hooves AND to help prevent lactic acid buildup that will cause laminitis/foundering." My apologies for not being precise in my writing.

According to atlantaequine.com:

Grain overload. Ingestion of an excessive amount of grain can alter the bacterial balance within the cecum, which is the "fermenting" organ of the horse's GI tract. Consequently, bacteria that produce lactic acid (such as Lactobacillis and Streptococcus spp.) tend to proliferate. The presence of increased lactic acid (and decreased pH) can lyse the cell wall of gram negative bacteria. This results in the release of endotoxins within the cecum. If absorbed into the systemic circulation, endotoxins can cause compromised blood flow of the peripheral circulatory system. Altered blood flow in the feet can trigger laminitis.

[Ghazzu]

ghazzu and katerine: Let me rephrase what I wrote as you've misunderstood. I wrote, "Wanna keep the circulation going through the hooves to help prevent lactic acid buildup that will cause laminitis/foundering." I should have written "keep the ciruclation going through the hooves AND to help prevent lactic acid buildup that will cause laminitis/foundering." My apologies for not being precise in my writing.



Increasing the circulation in the feet decreases growth of lactate-producing bacteria in the gut?
Is that what you're saying now?

[katarine]

I'm with you Ghazzu. I can read and understand the quote from atlantaequine. What I cannot fully understand is the poster's way of re-phrasing the same data. It's interesting how language can be so tricky!

[Katy Watts]

I should have written "keep the ciruclation going through the hooves AND to help prevent lactic acid buildup that will cause laminitis/foundering."

Huh? You're leaving out some steps. In the alimentary theory of laminitis (which I believe less every day) the buildup of lactic acid in the gut damages the lining and releases 'trigger factors' into the blood. I believe Dr. Pollitt is now focusing on laminin-5 that triggers MMPs in the foot. That theory is not about lactic acid that acts in the foot.

If you believe this lactic acid in the gut thing, Dr Pollitt would have you standing the horse still in ice water all day, or in a stall full of balls that hold them off the floor. He thinks gravity is the enemy.

Now, if my severely insulin resistant pony got into the grain, I'd be oiling her to get it moving fast and out, and I'd be riding her HARD to use up the extra glucose and trying to avoid an insulin spike, which I think is a more common trigger for laminitis than the whole fermentative/lactic acid/ MMP trigger theory.
Katy

[caballus]

Increasing the circulation in the feet decreases growth of lactate-producing bacteria in the gut?
Is that what you're saying now? Nooooo, go back to read my original post about keeping them moving in general.

[birdsong]

Great replies...Today I was loosely offering a founder explanation to a non-horse person and I did hit on those ideas....seems I had it fairly right.

The lady who owns the land is retired from horse breeding. They raised Qtr racers. She has a lake where they swam them and a tread mill for exercise. She is really enjoying having the horses around...she and her husband, who is now gone, spent their lives with horses. She's the one who always supported many a young girl in their dreams of showing..providing the horse, saddles, clothes. She has serious health problems and having the horses has served as a distraction for her. While she's a bit "rough around the edges", I've found that her knowledge and advice has been pretty good so far.

She actually said that she would put a horse in a mud/ice hole. Sounds like what someone else mentioned. I couldn't fathom trying to get Tommy to stand in 4 buckets by myself in the middle of the night!!

So, Sketcher, am I to understand that if signs of lameness begin to appear that it is still helpful to ice? or was that only immediately following the initial onset?

Well, I think we all have the oil washed/worn off and I've had a nap and a cup of tea....all is good so far still but don't feel we are out of the woods until the concerns for founder have passed.

Again, how long is it possible to become founder/lami ??

[BuddyRoo]

You've got several days of watching, hoping, praying ahead of you....I'd keep them on banamine for a few days if it were me......

By about day four, I'd say you're close to in the clear.....

[gabz]

TO Caballus, Ghazzu, Katherine, Katy...

As a horse owner - lay person (not a professional vet, farrier, dentist, etc.) My understanding of laminitis and founder is this:

Something triggers inflammation of the laminae. They swell, Sometimes the laminae swell so badly, they push against the coffin bone (P3) and sometimes the laminae swell so much that they split and separate from the inside of the hoof wall. Once the separation takes place, the laminae can no longer support the P3 which is essentially suspended in the foot by the laminae.

At this point, when there is separation and rotation of P3, founder occurs.

If this is correct, then what needs to be resolved is what can potentially cause the laminae to swell and how is that prevented. RIght?

Regardless of what can cause the laminitis and subsequent founder, what can birdsong do RIGHT NOW, above and beyond what her vet has told her?

Should she assume that there is a metabolic failure or there will be a metabolic failure and begin cold hosing/ icing / supportive measures to keep POSSIBLE laminitis > founder from occuring?

I think as most horse people know, use cold to stop swelling, YES? Hence the reason for standing the horse in a cold stream, muddy puddle with ice or cold water, etc. Is this correct?

Would this be a case where she can do this knowing that it might NOT be needed, but it won't harm the horse to do it?
JMHO - I think so.

Secondly. If movement, ie. walking, trotting increases the entire body circulation, will that help remove lactic acid or any other "bad things" in the horse's system? Horses that stock up (swell in the hind legs - fluid buildup) are known to rid themselves of that fluid buildup by being exercised.... So wouldn't some easy walking, exercising be of benefit to the horse's entire circulatory system? Would it be HARMFUL?

Horses that are exercised vigorously produce lactic acid in their systems which can cause a breakdown of other "stuff" in the horse. Slow walking and cooling down slowly after a rigorous workout is believed to help circulation which removes the "bad stuff", right? (the reason for walking out a TB or QH after a race).

So... is the question all of you are debating whether or not an overload of grain will produce "bad stuff" that will cause laminitis? Or are you debating whether lactic acid OVERproduction can cause laminitis? Or are you debating that overload of grain produces lactic acid?

If no one has the "for-sure-backed-up-by-these-studies" answer, why not just offer Birdsong some suggestions and advice on what she can do to (1) keep her horses healthy; and (2) put her mind at ease and add to her knowledge.

[Ghazzu]

If no one has the "for-sure-backed-up-by-these-studies" answer, why not just offer Birdsong some suggestions and advice on what she can do to (1) keep her horses healthy; and (2) put her mind at ease and add to her knowledge.


I did offer a suggestion or two, the main one being to seek veterinary advice.

And then ice.

[Katy Watts]

UAA gel (charcoal) or Biosponge to absorb lactic acid.
Oil to get the grain moving fast.
Ice won't hurt, might help. Will only help PREVENT, wont' do any good once pain sets in.
I'd have some blue construction styrofoam and a roll of duct tape on hand in case you need emergency support for feet.
In fact, anybody with grain on their property should probably have all these on hand in case.
Katy

[Buffyblue]

When my friend's mare got into the grain one night, the vet came out and tubed her and had her ice her feet for a couple of days as a precaution.

[birdsong]

Thanks to all who took the time to offer their ideas. So far so good...and I continued with a smaller dose of banamine for Tommy (the paint) ...at the very least it won't hurt.

Thanks Gabz...yes was getting a bit fuddled reading some of the post debating things...of course being sleep deprived wasn't helping...but I think I have a pretty good picture now.

Got good advise about checking the digital pulse for the next 72 hours and icing if it became stronger. Once lameness occurs it would seem that the damage was already done so a stronger pulse would be an indicator of trouble.

I'm a "why and "how" sort myself that always asked questions until I can get a really clear visual picture of most things...so all of the answers help to answer and sort out a lot.

One question that might never be answered is "how much is too much?"....and I think that might really depend on the horse....so my answer last night when some local friends said going to the Vet was probably not necessary, is "better safe than sorry"...and like most horse folks...you put your animals needs before your own.

Thanks for all your concerns....better support here than anyplace!!

[birdsong]

This was a study done on a group of horses where part of them were forced into laminitis and later euthanized. Note: vasodilation would be the increased digital pulse.


Analysis of mean hoof temperature graphs showed that horses judged laminitis positive had experienced a period of prolonged digital vasodilation 16-40 hours after carbohydrate overload. Laminitis negative horses experienced no such period of vasodilation and never had hoof temperatures significantly (except once, at 28 hours) above that of controls. The only parameter which significantly differentiated the laminitis positive from laminitis negative horses, between 12 and 32 hours after carbohydrate overload, was foot temperature, which was significantly higher in laminitis positive horses (P<0.05). Therefore, a period of sublamellar vasodilation, 12 to 40 hours after alimentary carbohydrate overload precedes the onset of laminitis.

[Bogie]

I'm glad your horses are doing well so far :yes:. I hope that they continue to feel better.

IMHO, always better to ask the vet to step in earlier rather than later. Last year we had a pony founder at the barn -- several us had commented to the owner that she looked uncomfortable but she chose not to call the vet for at least a week after the pony started to look uncomfortable. Ultimately, the pony ended up with 12 and 14 degree rotation in the front. I've always wondered if it could have been contained (or just been a laminitic episode) if the vet had been called when we first noticed the discomfort.

I had a scary episode a few years ago when someone fed Purina Athlete (high fat/high protein supplement) as a direct replacement for Purina Strategy. Each horse got approx. 3#. It made me re-think what I would keep in the barn to avoid future operator errors (I'm in a co-op, and yes, their correct feed was bagged and labeled :no:). Currently, I feed only a ration balancer and I've always wondered if that would be dangerous if eaten in volume.

[Paddys Mom]

Sometimes, you don't know enough to know you should be afraid.
When my gelding was 5, so 21 years ago, he rolled in his stall, got cast against the stall front, knocked down the whole stall front, and ate nearly 50 pounds of sweet feed.
They found him in the morning, laying down in an empty stall and called me.
I rushed out and started walking him and called the vet.
Before the vet got there, they started feeding the other horses breakfast and my gelding was nickering for his food. :rolleyes:
The vet showed up and did.......NOTHING.
Said his vitals were fine and he was hungry and pooping, so nothing to do.
He suffered no harm from that episode, other than lifelong hatred from the barn owners for knocking down the stall front.

I could tell you other stories from my young novice horse owning life that would curl your toes, but I don't want to risk jinxing myself or my now 26 year old gelding who is still somehow alive and ornery as ever.

birdsong, glad your Tommy seems to be fine too.

[CosMonster]

Birdsong, I'm glad your pony is doing ok. That's always scary.

When I was a kid I boarded at this really questionable farm, and there was a gelding there who was a wizard with latches and could get out of any stall. If we rigged it so he couldn't get out, he'd jump over or crawl under (they were welded pipe runs and he could get down on his belly and shimmy underneath--craziest thing!). He could also open the grain shed. We put a combination lock on it but the kids who worked there were really bad about remembering to latch it. This guy treated the grain shed like his own personal buffet table. Several times that I know of he ate 30# or more before someone caught him and chased him out. Somehow, he managed never to colic or founder despite being a cresty little pony type. Maybe he was just used to huge grain overloads! Died at the ripe old age of 31, sound and healthy as can be. Not that I'd recommend that method of horsekeeping, just thought I'd share to hopefully help you relax a bit! :D

Good for you for ignoring the advice from your local friends to just wait and see. I've always been taught that by the time the horse is hurting from laminitis, damage has already been done. People can be so casual about it, but it's such a serious thing and I think more cases could be prevented if people just took it more seriously. I think you handled a stressful and potentially damaging situation very well. :) I hope Tommy continues to recover well.

[birdsong]

Well there is now slight heat in the side of one foot...this may very well be pre-existing from pulling a shoe a while back..he still favors it very slightly from 4 mo ago.

Will be bringing him in for a better exam...have never checked the pulse before so will do that. I understand that lami would show up bi-laterally.

This is a real education! You think you might know stuff until you really have to apply it all.

I think that it would be appropriate for ALL horse owners to learn certain things BEFORE they need it!! like checking the pulse for one...

[Katy Watts]

I've always been taught that by the time the horse is hurting from laminitis, damage has already been done. .

Prevention is the emphasis of the leading research veterinarians studying laminitis around the world. The reason there is so much conflicting advise on the internet is because the researchers don't even agree. At once conference they even had a mock trial for supper entertainment between two leading researchers arguing 2 mechanisms for laminitis development. Bute, don't bute. Sole support, no sole support. Exercise, stall rest. Alfalfa is OK, NO afalfa. Timothy is best. (at my house it tests at 30% NSC!!!!) I've been to several conferences dedicated to laminitis and there is no consensus. When I email leading laminitis researchers, they dissagree with each others advice. There are many causes for laminitis, therefore possibly just as many preventative measures.
It's a bitch of a disease.
Katy

[birdsong]

will have to work on that more later....but not finding it is better than finding an overly strong one. I'm feeling pretty confident that we are out of the woods. We are 48 hours now.

Thanks for all the support and ideas all....this lami/founder thing is such a scare.

[Appassionato]

will have to work on that more later....but not finding it is better than finding an overly strong one. I'm feeling pretty confident that we are out of the woods. We are 48 hours now.

Thanks for all the support and ideas all....this lami/founder thing is such a scare.

FWIW, I can feel and feel and feel around a laminitic horse's fetlock "blindly" and not find a strong digital pulse...but as soon as I detect the digital artery, then it is pounding. Knowing the location is very important, as well as knowing what is normal and what isn't. I'd still pursue finding the digital pulse, they may be laminitic or they may not be at this time (hopefully NOT laminitic! :winkgrin:), but someday you may be really glad that you knew how to find it and determine from there what to do while waiting for a vet.