american selection criteria under fire

[snoopy]

http://www.dressagedaily.com/2008/dd_200801/dd_20080129-haddad.html


I thought this to be a VERY interesting article...especially when a vet said he would not put his dog through the process.

Your thoughts????!!!!

[Rhiannonjk]

Ok, I don't know much about the process, but I have a question: Why do the selection rides all have to be at the same place? Couldn't the same panel of judges travel to different venues (prhap, one on the west coast, one on the east coast, and one in Europe) and judge the performances? Then, it seems to me that the only difference would be the particular facility conditions on that particular day, and while that CAN greatly effect a ride, it seems like a small price to pay to save the horses intense travel to qualifying competitions.

Explain to me what I'm not understanding here?

[Kimberlee]

I think the USA has shot itself in the foot way to many times re it's selection process in the past. If anyone expects them to actually make a good decision on their selection process this year, you have rose colored glasses on. It is very interesting that in the past they have told american riders based in the Europe that they can stay there, and then qualify for the competition, but then the rules get changed for qualification after it is to late for those european based riders to come to the US to qualify. It still seems that riding for the USA in the Olympics is as politically based as always. I think it does the team a diservice to give past riders a "bye option" does not allow new horse rider combinations a level playing field when trying to qualify.

Also, packing in the competitions so close to the Olympics shots the horses being in their peak condition in the foot, literally.

But, this is the opinion I have had many times re the Olympic selection trials in previous years. I did not expect it to make any more sense this year, than in past ones.

[STF]

Hats off to those who horses well being comes first!

[snoopy]

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=131713


Sorry folks I did not realize there was another thread on this issue....

[magdelene]

Mrs. Haddad is courage to write this. I have telephoned with her for interviewing. She say me she has nothing to lost. She cannot qualify for the Olympics in this way. So why not write about it.

[Velvet]

Good thoughts, and a correct conclusion.

I like what she had to say, I just don't like how she said it. She's a great rider, but not a great writer--where was her editor?? :no: Sorry, but I think the standards for nationally published material need to be a tad higher. I blame her editor, not her. She's not supposed to be the world's best writer, too.

[fiona]

I think she writes well.

[Equibrit]

For the love of everything that is reasonable - SHE IS NOT PAID TO BE A WRITER. SO - quit yer bitching.

Besides - SHE IS 100% RIGHT!

[freestyle2music]

Ok, I don't know much about the process, but I have a question: Why do the selection rides all have to be at the same place? Couldn't the same panel of judges travel to different venues (prhap, one on the west coast, one on the east coast, and one in Europe) and judge the performances? Then, it seems to me that the only difference would be the particular facility conditions on that particular day, and while that CAN greatly effect a ride, it seems like a small price to pay to save the horses intense travel to qualifying competitions.

Explain to me what I'm not understanding here?

You hit the nail on the head, and said it all.

But could it be that some hotshot don't want CH on the team ?

[snoopy]

You hit the nail on the head, and said it all.

But could it be that some hotshot don't want CH on the team ?



I doubt that the powers that be sat in a room and came up with a selection criteria with the sole intent of excluding CH. Honestly!!!

[egontoast]

It's a letter. If she hired a ghost writer/editor for a personal letter she could be criticized for THAT as well.

Personally, yes, I was turned off by her style as the epiphanous sinofile (rolly eye thingy) :lol: and, yes, she does not employ perfect grammar BUT,

SO WHAT?

It's HER personal letter so she can express herself however the hell she wishes (I did not retain an editor for this post , obviously).

She gets her point across. I think she comes across a little arrogant/self important but so what? The players have big egos or they would not be out there going for IT.

[Rhiannonjk]

You hit the nail on the head, and said it all.



Thanks. I would still LOVE for somebody to explain to me why it is more important to spend so much money in shipping, and risk the horse's health, to have the horses in a uniform competitive environment, than to have the selection comittee travel to as many as 3 different locations.

[AM]

Some of you must be too young to remember the costly lawsuits the USET had several years back that caused our selection procedures to go entirely on objective criteria. They have eased up a slot or two in the last few years.

Is the host country responsible for transportation? Are they the ones saying everyone has to fly from Europe?

[Rhiannonjk]

No. I don't remember. Why don't you educate me. I really want to know how big of a difference the different facility and time and weather makes on a selection trial, and how it is SO IMPORTANT that it is worth all of this.

[eqsiu]

I would like to know why the team has to be training in Europe by June. I can see having the team chosen, but travelling to Europe for two months prior to the games is as economically unsound for NA based riders as flying to CA is for Europe based riders.

[snoopy]

No. I don't remember. Why don't you educate me. I really want to know how big of a difference the different facility and time and weather makes on a selection trial, and how it is SO IMPORTANT that it is worth all of this.


Wasn't it a showjumper...Debbie Dolan....who started that ball rolling?

[Equibrit]

I would like to know why the team has to be training in Europe by June. I can see having the team chosen, but travelling to Europe for two months prior to the games is as economically unsound for NA based riders as flying to CA is for Europe based riders.

It was made very clear in CH's article.

[ridgeback]

The sad truth is many riders would sue if the selection process was more subjective. If a coach picked a european based rider with a lower score then a U.S.based rider because the coach felt the scores aren't comparable the sad truth is the federation knows they'd be sued. Its happend in the jumper world..

[ridgeback]

It's a letter. If she hired a ghost writer/editor for a personal letter she could be criticized for THAT as well.

Personally, yes, I was turned off by her style as the epiphanous sinofile (rolly eye thingy) :lol: and, yes, she does not employ perfect grammar BUT,

SO WHAT?

It's HER personal letter so she can express herself however the hell she wishes (I did not retain an editor for this post , obviously).

She gets her point across. I think she comes across a little arrogant/self important but so what? The players have big egos or they would not be out there going for IT.

I don't think someone who is forthright is egotistical I'd say confident..

[J-Lu]

The sad truth is many riders would sue if the selection process was more subjective. If a coach picked a european based rider with a lower score then a U.S.based rider because the coach felt the scores aren't comparable the sad truth is the federation knows they'd be sued. Its happend in the jumper world..

Actually, this is, from my understanding, exactly what happened in the past when a well known combo was coming back from an injury, and a higher-placed U.S. pair (at the time) was bumped from the team. The owner "understood", despite the fact that the combo that replaced them became the drop score. Dressage team selection is not totally objective. That said, I do believe that the subjective input is an attempt to do what is best for the team - not necessarily the indivdual. Yet I don't always think that is the best or most wining strategy on many levels.

I think there are opposing forces: Those who want the US to win medals. Those who want to own horses who win medals. Those who want to ride horses who win medals.

J.

[DownYonder]

I think there are opposing forces: Those who want the US to win medals. Those who want to own horses who win medals. Those who want to ride horses who win medals.

Add to that those who just want to be named to an Olympic team or own a horse named to an Olympic team. There are a lot of riders and owners who dream of riding/owning "an Olympic horse" - whether or not they are capable of winning a medal.

And kudos to CH for having the gumption to speak out publicly against these crazy qualifying requirements. The selectors obviously do not understand the physical and mental toll all that traveling is going to take on those horses.

[Mozart]

Wasn't it a showjumper...Debbie Dolan....who started that ball rolling?

Or Debbie Stephens? (or is that the same person, maybe, Stephens is the married name?)

[mjhco]

Debbie Dolan was the one who started it. (Not related to Debbie Stephens).

[eqsiu]

Or Debbie Stephens? (or is that the same person, maybe, Stephens is the married name?)

Debbie Stephens rode a horse named Volan...:lol:

[MEP]

Debbie Dolan was the one who started it. (Not related to Debbie Stephens).

Debbie Dolan's married name I believe is Sweeny or Sweeney - close enough to Stephens to be confusing!

[Velvet]

My comments based upon a lack of editing were due to the fact that I believed the link to be to an article, not a letter to an editor.

If it's just a letter, then she needs to address this to the attention of the USEF. Has she done that? Why isn't anyone else complaning? Is it because of they others that want to make the team don't have to go through the process? I don't agree with making any horse travel that much in a short period of time, but I think they need to go ahead and use some of the big shows with international judges to help them make their decision. Not just do one head-to-head competition for those who have never been on the team and need to qualify. It should be done by world rankings, etc.

[J-Lu]

Velvet, it is my understanding that she addressed this long ago with the Powers that Be. I don't think she has the support funds that other top riders have since her main sponsor passed away, so I think this qualifying scheme squeezes her alot more than it would others. She'd like the world rankings to be taken into consideration.

[ridgeback]

Velvet, it is my understanding that she addressed this long ago with the Powers that Be. I don't think she has the support funds that other top riders have since her main sponsor passed away, so I think this qualifying scheme squeezes her alot more than it would others. She'd like the world rankings to be taken into consideration.

I don't think it's about funding I think it's about the welfare of the horses and being fit and ready to compete.

[Sabine]

I think the plan was poorly conceived and influenced by who the powers to be wanted to protect. They wanted to protect the previous team- well that plan surely backfired and eliminated a lot of possibles out of the gate.

Debbie and Brentina-?
Gunter and Aragon- ?
Steffen and Floriano-?

so there we are now- not too many are sure if they are going to make it or not- the new leading contestant is from the East Coast...not sure who's going to show up on the West coast in the next 3 months?? Everything should be buttoned down by 4/30. That is obviously not the case. I truly agree with the reasoning Catherine put forth in her letter. The timing and the vast travel required is all wrong.

As of right now- We really don't have a team!

That's the facts- friends...and who will make it - will make it with a very young horse and pay a very high price....!! You have to ask yourself why don't we have someone planning ahead here- and what does our team coach have to do in this scenario? Is the long term planning not part of the job?

Maybe this is where the real improvement could be made. The powers to be need to be talking and consulting the team coach for long term planning purposes....it's like growing grapes- the really great wines don't get made over nite!

[Hazelnut]

My comments based upon a lack of editing were due to the fact that I believed the link to be to an article, not a letter to an editor.

If it's just a letter, then she needs to address this to the attention of the USEF. Has she done that? Why isn't anyone else complaning? Is it because of they others that want to make the team don't have to go through the process? I don't agree with making any horse travel that much in a short period of time, but I think they need to go ahead and use some of the big shows with international judges to help them make their decision. Not just do one head-to-head competition for those who have never been on the team and need to qualify. It should be done by world rankings, etc.

Ms. Haddad raises in a professional manner the effects of the proposed international travel schedule on the the fitness of the horses selected for the Olympic team. The schedule seems daunting to me. Good for Ms. Haddad for having courage to share her concerns in a public manner. We wouldn't be discussing this if she didn't write the letter/article.

One would think the USEF would manage international level competition in a manner that supports and does not place undue stress on the equine athlete. The proposed travel and competition schedule sounds counter productive to fielding the best prepared Olympic team.

[Velvet]

Hazelnut,

So what's your point in quoting me? :confused: You didn't address anything I said about your "Ms. Haddad".

[eqsiu]

It was made very clear in CH's article.

But why not train here, fly directly to Aachen for quarantine, and then on to Hong Kong? Is it really necessary for the team to compete in Europe before the games?

[swgarasu]

But why not train here, fly directly to Aachen for quarantine, and then on to Hong Kong? Is it really necessary for the team to compete in Europe before the games?


Agreed. This is supposed to be for the U.S. team. There should be more concern about making things easier for people who actually live here. I get that it's necessary to establish a reputation in Europe, but she's already done that. I don't see why they can't train here.

[hsheffield]

well said, sabine.

it makes sense to me to show in Europe beforehand to try to establish reputations.

what if we sent the top say 6 horses (based on US CDI scores?) to Europe for a couple of months beforehand and then sent the top 3+1 to Beijing?

btw, does anyone else think it takes 14 weeks for a horse to recover from a long flight? That's not been my experience but I've flown mostly youngsters so it may be different with older more trained horses...

[eqsiu]

One would think that the quarantine time would allow for recovery.

Can the horses get ridden during quarantine? I would assume so, but if not then I can see where that would be a huge problem.

The problem with sending the best from here to Europe is that people can't necessarily afford to leave their homes and businesses for months on end. And if the best can't go becuase of that I see no reason to make them. We want the strongest team. On the other hand I don't know why the Europe based riders have to come to the US to qualify either. Oh well.

[canyonoak]

The trials are the end of June. In the present plan, the US horses fly to Aachen to be quarantined, not to compete...and then leave quarantine for the trip to Amsterdam for the flight(s) to Hong Kong .

[eqsiu]

The trials are the end of June. In the present plan, the US horses fly to Aachen to be quarantined, not to compete...and then leave quarantine for the trip to Amsterdam for the flight(s) to Hong Kong .

It's in response to CH's suggestions.

[Hazelnut]

Ms. Haddad raises in a professional manner the effects of the proposed international travel schedule on the the fitness of the horses selected for the Olympic team. The schedule seems daunting to me. Good for Ms. Haddad for having courage to share her concerns in a public manner. We wouldn't be discussing this if she didn't write the letter/article.

One would think the USEF would manage international level competition in a manner that supports and does not place undue stress on the equine athlete. The proposed travel and competition schedule sounds counter productive to fielding the best prepared Olympic team.


I was stating why I thought she brought the concerns up in a public forum rather than direct them to the USEF...which I thought you were questioning...that's all

[Coreene]

Agreed. This is supposed to be for the U.S. team. There should be more concern about making things easier for people who actually live here. I get that it's necessary to establish a reputation in Europe, but she's already done that. I don't see why they can't train here.She lives in Germany. Her business and livelihood is in Germany.

They should have picked a team long ago. This last minute stuff is just such bullshit.

[Hazelnut]

Yes, thats it! What Coreene said!

[cyberbay]

Sabine has it right. The dressage selectors have an agenda and already know who they want to send -- and the criteria has been drafted to help those riders have the strongest scores... et viola! They're named to the team!

Don't know flying routes well, but is it faster to Europe from CA by flying west? Hope so, b/c it seems pretty stupid to hold the trials in CA, then backtrack east to Europe.

I didn't think her article was poorly written -- just curious, Velvet, can you cite examples of poor writing?

I think her points seem valid...it was my impression that Lisa Wilcox was based in Europe and managed to get on the Team, but was not really welcomed onto the team... Mostly b/c she wasn't a product of the uset-sanctioned training system.

[Coreene]

Anyone wanna start a side pool, right now, on who the drop score will be? :winkgrin:

[Velvet]

I didn't think her article was poorly written -- just curious, Velvet, can you cite examples of poor writing?



Hey, I never said I was an editor, I just said she could have benefited from it. My point was that she needed someone to keep it on track, make it a bit more concise and to the point.

Here's an edited and reworked bit. I'm just trying to shorten it, have more of a initial statement, facts listed in the middle, and then I've summed up what seemed to be the main points at the end. I just think a real editor could make it have more punch as an editorial. That's all. My initial reaction was a bit more of a knee jerk because I thought it was not a letter, but rather an editorial in a major publication that would normal receive some attention by an editor. (In that instance, the editor should be in trouble with me.) Just ignore the run on sentences and lack of spell check in my rework, rewrite. It's only an example, it's not mine--and it hasn't seen an editor either. :lol:

Example:

In light of the recent withdrawal of the Swiss Dressage Team from the Olympic Games in Hong Kong, I feel it would behoove all nations, including our own (USA), to reexamine their selection process and preparation plans. The current selection process in the United States begins with the trials in San Juan Capistrano, California during the last two weeks of June. This selection trial includes only those riders who have not received a “bye” from the USEF. (The current 2008 Selection Criteria offer a bye option for horse and rider combinations that have contributed to a team medal in the last four years. Thus, Robert Dover with Kennedy, Debbie McDonald with Brentina, Steffan Peters with Floriano, and Guenter Seidel with Aragon have all received byes.)

For those riders who have not received a bye and do qualify for the team, they must first travel to the selection trials in California, followed by Europe in the first week of July, quarantine at Aachen, and the trip to Hong Kong requiring 10 days of quarantine before the Olympic Games. This process alone puts an undue burden on the horse and creates a situation where any rider who has not received a bye will be at a disadvantage due to the physical exhaustion of their horse.

Being a rider based in Europe, I’ve had past experiences traveling to the west coast of the United States to compete and back again to Europe. For instance, I flew to Las Vegas with Maximus last April for the World Cup. The trip took twelve days to complete, with two days of competition. We made it back to Germany in great shape but it took Maximus (and most of the other equine competitors) until the end of July to return to full power. That was almost 14 weeks of recovery time. I’ve also spoken with veterinarians who have stated they would not subject the family dog to such exhaustive travel, let alone an equine athlete.

The only fair solution is to use a selection process based on the current world Grand Prix dressage rankings as of ----put in the date here-----. Those rankings should be used, along with those of past competitors who have received a bye and are currently competing, and a fair conclusion reached based upon those numbers. The amount of travel could then be lessened, and the horse and rider combinations based in the U.S. could leave for Europe early, allow their horses to recover in Aachen, join any Europe based counterparts, and travel on to Hong Kong as a well rested team ready to contend for an Olympic medal.

In an effort to create a United States Dressage Team with the best riders available and the well rested and prepared horses, I have suggested these changes. Their response was to keep the process as it is currently defined. I ask those riders in the United States who have ever harbored the dream of being on the Olympic Dressage Team, and having a chance to compete for a medal at the peak of their performance, to contact the USEF and ask them to quickly revise their schedule and selection process.

[petitefilly]

http://www.dressagedaily.com/2008/dd_200801/dd_20080129-haddad.html


I thought this to be a VERY interesting article...especially when a vet said he would not put his dog through the process.

Your thoughts????!!!!

Her letter states the truth about all that travel. It is heartless to make the horse do all this traveling when a selection by merit of scores could be done where she is already in Europe. Call me incredulous, but I doubt she will make our team if you make her come back to the USA to be selected. First, is Brentina even being considered? Steffen is no longer riding Floriano, and Gunther, what has he been doing?

Our list is getting mighty confused! :( What about Wildone? Is he up and doing well, or still fighting the little mistakes?

It will be interesting, "verrrry interesttttting" this year.

[canyonoak]

There is no drop score any more at the Olympics.

Three riders ride, all scores count.

One traveling reserve does not compete; gets nominated if one of the three cannot compete for whatever reason.

How could the USEF pick a team much earlier than now ?

What horses would you all nominate to short list? Right now?

[imajicadutch]

If all of you sent your ideas to the USEF, perhaps someone might take notice.
This board has many highly intelligent people with sharp insights and sound solutions to numerous issues. I suggest that you use your ideas for the benefit of our sport.

[ridgeback]

well said, sabine.

it makes sense to me to show in Europe beforehand to try to establish reputations.

what if we sent the top say 6 horses (based on US CDI scores?) to Europe for a couple of months beforehand and then sent the top 3+1 to Beijing?

btw, does anyone else think it takes 14 weeks for a horse to recover from a long flight? That's not been my experience but I've flown mostly youngsters so it may be different with older more trained horses...

Who said 14 weeks?

[yaya]

Catherine said it took her horse 14 weeks to recover from the trip to/from the World Cup in Vegas.

I'm sure it varies for individual horses.

[ridgeback]

Catherine said it took her horse 14 weeks to recover from the trip to/from the World Cup in Vegas.

I'm sure it varies for individual horses.


Thanks, I went back and the read the article where she said that seemed to be the case for many of the European horses. I think bringing back a top level horse is a bit different then bringing back the average horse:)

[cyberbay]

OK, Velvet, I can see where you're coming from. I did like her approach, though, and did 'walk away' understanding all of her points and why she is worried about making a bid for the Team.

[OOrchard]

I read Catherine Haddad's article. I admit that I was quite lost in her discussion of the lifespan of rats with chronic disruptions of circadian rhythms. In other words, I approached the article from the mind of a lay, amature rider. I asked myself, why I support the USET. It is not because I feel that it is "charitable," perhaps try UNICEF for that. It is also not because I feel compelled to support Haddad's "Sinophile" aspirations. For me, it is because supporting OUR team is good for the sport in the United States. Having US based riders of an international caliber provides learning opportunities for all involved in USEF disciplines and brings us together as a community. I do not discredit Haddad's personal decision to be based in Germany, but I also do not think that riders based in Europe require special treatment in order to be treated equally. I hardly think that her residency in Europe qualifies her as a "protected class!" I am sure that we could debate Haddad's many points. Personally, I don't want to. That is why we have a Federation. If she is representative of our team, her letter simply leaves me less likely to write that check to support OUR team.

[ridgeback]

I read Catherine Haddad's article. I admit that I was quite lost in her discussion of the lifespan of rats with chronic disruptions of circadian rhythms. In other words, I approached the article from the mind of a lay, amature rider. I asked myself, why I support the USET. It is not because I feel that it is "charitable," perhaps try UNICEF for that. It is also not because I feel compelled to support Haddad's "Sinophile" aspirations. For me, it is because supporting OUR team is good for the sport in the United States. Having US based riders of an international caliber provides learning opportunities for all involved in USEF disciplines and brings us together as a community. I do not discredit Haddad's personal decision to be based in Germany, but I also do not think that riders based in Europe require special treatment in order to be treated equally. I hardly think that her residency in Europe qualifies her as a "protected class!" I am sure that we could debate Haddad's many points. Personally, I don't want to. That is why we have a Federation. If she is representative of our team, her letter simply leaves me less likely to write that check to support OUR team.

I think Catherine was just trying to put some science behind what flying does to the animals, especially when they are flying frequently. The Dutch and German teams are selected already and I think you are missing her main point -- which is that the U.S. is waiting too long to decide the team. This is putting them at a huge disadvantage by going to Hong Kong with horses that will not be at 100%. Her concern is the welfare of the horses.

I think the U.S. will always be a bridesmaid in the Dressage world if the federation doesn't support those riders who chose to learn and compete with the best in the world. As an example, if European reining riders want to be competitive they come to the U.S. or Canada to train, because these two countries are the best in the world when it comes to reining professionals. So why wouldn't we support those riders who decide to go to Europe to train in Dressage?

Do you think there is a rider with a competitive bid for the Olympic team who would disagree with her views on the selection trials being too late, and the horses not having enough time to be 100%? If they did, I would hope they would have the courage to speak out publicly, similar to Catherine

[Velvet]

The US has and always will support riders competing in Europe. As a matter of fact, you can't even think of trying for the Olympic team unless you have that international experience under your belt. No one can just qualify here in the states without having competed under the top European judges, and against the top riders in the world (who happen to be Europeans and who compete in Europe).

The problem with Haddad is that she chose to live there and create a business over there. That's her choice. She stated in her article that she's upset because of the time she'd have to take away from her business to try and qualify for the team. That's a risk ALL people wanting to make the team have to face--now that professionals are allowed to compete for the team (it was different in the OLD days of the Olympics ;) ). Everyone has to take time away from their business to compete in an attempt to qualify, and they have to take time away for the actual Olympics.

I agreed only with the point that they should have the team selected earlier to help them prepare, and they should send them to Europe to prepare, and then send them on the Hong Kong giving them enough time to rest and be ready to compete.

I also agree that past standings and world rankings have to factor into the selection process--which they do, to some extent.

I think that Haddad's point about horse exhaustion is a good one. I also think that making changes to the process that allows the rest of the U.S. (who SUPPORTS the team) to understand exactly what they are doing at all times in the selection process would help. I think there are few people beyond those ready to try for the team who are aware of all the nuances of the selection process. And I think knowing them would help all involved. Maybe the COTH could help with that by putting out some articles that explain the selection process for all disciplines of the equestrian team. Write it early, or just publish links, so people can follow the Olympics from the beginning to the end results. I know they publish results of the selection and some updates, but I can't recall ever seeing something early on that showed exactly what the criteria was. (Maybe I just missed it the last time--that's always possible. :D )

As for Haddad's bid for the team. If she wants to go for it, she's going to have to risk the business. The funny thing for me is that she doesn't really need to make the team to make money, obviously. She's been more successful already than 90% of the American riders who teach and train every day. The team may be a personal goal, but I think that if she choses not to go because of the risk to her horse, that's fine and it will not impact her overall career one way or the other. Life isn't all about the Olympics, thank God. It's about much more. I hope she sees that, too. I can see and understand having a dream and goal, but I have also been around long enough to know that things happen, life changes--and letting go of dreams often frees you up for something even better. The Olympics is one moment in time, there is one gold medal winner, and in the end people who are great trainers, and teachers often go further than those who won a medal.

[canyonoak]

Yesterday, I talked with people who are intimately involved with the selection process from various angles.

They pointed out that the jumping and eventing teams will be in Europe soon and that the major support teams --vets,shoers,etc--will all be in Europe.
ANd the dressage horses will be flying WITH horses from these other teams.

So unless the dressage sponsors want to charter a jumbo jet and put together a support team, it makes more sense for the horses to all be in one place.


Not to mention the specific and special requirements of this kind of quarantine, which includes a representative from Hong Kong presrent at the quarantine facility.

etc etc.

[ridgeback]

Ok so I'm confused if the jumpers and eventers are going to be in Europe soon and the dressage horses are going over with them how will they get back for the selection trials at the end of June????

[shadowdancer]

;)I PROMISED my (American) wife that I would not get involved in this forum, but I simply cannot hold my tongue. Did anyone actually READ Haddad's article?

1) Her writing is superior even by British standards. Of course, US expectations of the English language may have dropped a bit during the Bush administration;).
2) I do not see her asking for use of the World Ranking List, the US Grand Prix Ranking List, or any other ranking list.
3) The only possible combination that could invoke the "Bye" clause is McDonald/Brentina since all the others are out of commission (even those of us confined to the Continent have this information) ...and that only if the mare makes a miraculous comeback. Haddad's comment on the "redundant" bye clause is tongue-in-cheek. We found it amusing.
4) Why write a bye clause for a Californian contender, the only rider who doesn't have to travel...?
5) Haddad clearly stated that her horse returned to "full power" after 14 weeks. One would hope that the horses competing at the Olympics are pushing full power and not simply going through the motions.
5) Haddad should not be written off as a contender. She was reserve for your team in 2006 and 7th in the World Cup in 2007, both positions earned mostly by competing in Europe--an amazing record for her first two years of international competition. Her horses keep improving. So why all the fuss?

Move the Selection Trials forward by 3-4 weeks and provide funding for travel so that horses and bank accounts stay healthy. I say that Haddad should jump on a plane and give them all a go in California.

ALL your top contenders should have a fair shot. That's the Olympic spirit.

[canyonoak]

http://www.usef.org/documents/highPerformance/dressage/OGAttachmentF.pdf

Of the 11 qualifying competitions in the US in 2008, 8 take place AFTER or around March 15. They run through June 1st.

How or when would you create qualifying competitions that would end earlier AND give the horses/riders a fair chance to plan a schedule AND enough time between competitions?

[shadowdancer]

Isn't June 1st a bit late to be qualifying for a Selection Trial when the OLYMPICS will be held 10 weeks later? That is not enough time to get a green or inexperienced horse fit to compete in the Trials and the Games, plus travel. So even if a new DreamTeam emerges in May or June, it is a PipeDream that they could succeed in Hong Kong.

All our european teams already have shortlists. Even the nations that don't have an official team spot yet, have shortlists. Where's yours?

[Coreene]

There is no drop score any more at the Olympics.Thats right, I had forgotten. Well, then let's hope that she does not make the team. ;)

[OOrchard]

My point, for clarification to Ridgeback,...(with the circadian rhythms) is that it is dangerous to assume that the "science" in her article is an accurate reflection of the "science." Horses are not elderly rats experiencing chronic changes in light...by the way the young rats did just fine... She makes many assumptions about what is best for horses. Now many of her points seem to make sense, but other statements discredit. There is obviously another side (the USET side to the timeline). I agree with DQNobody, there are some very qualified poeple helping with the animal welfare decisions. Perhaps I read too much into her letter, but my overwhelming impression was that the process just does not work for her circumstances of having her business in Europe. Remember that other team hopefuls were in Europe this fall.... Planning is everything.

[snoopy]

That is not enough time to get a green or inexperienced horse fit to compete in the Trials and the Games, plus travel.

All our european teams already have shortlists. Even the nations that don't have an official team spot yet, have shortlists. Where's yours?


Green/inexperienced at the OLYMPICS?:confused:


The North American selection does not favour this type of system....which I find odd. I suppose they want to make sure horses who are sound and showing form as close to the championships are the ones selected. But this in itself, IMO, is not the best way to produce horses fit physically and mentally, infact they are often worn out before the even board the plane.

[ridgeback]

My point, for clarification to Ridgeback,...(with the circadian rhythms) is that it is dangerous to assume that the "science" in her article is an accurate reflection of the "science." Horses are not elderly rats experiencing chronic changes in light...by the way the young rats did just fine... She makes many assumptions about what is best for horses. Now many of her points seem to make sense, but other statements discredit. There is obviously another side (the USET side to the timeline). I agree with DQNobody, there are some very qualified poeple helping with the animal welfare decisions. Perhaps I read too much into her letter, but my overwhelming impression was that the process just does not work for her circumstances of having her business in Europe. Remember that other team hopefuls were in Europe this fall.... Planning is everything.


For argument sake lets take Catherine out of this do you disagree with her that waiting that long to select a team and get to Hong Kong is not going to allow the American's to be ready? Not to mention it is very possible we won't have the best team for this particular Olympics because there is no way for the European based riders to qualify..You got to wonder why the best countries are all set and preparing meanwhile we are sitting around doing nothing. Lets be honest there would be riders who would sue if the selection trials weren't held in CA and don't kid yourself to think politics and money isn't part of this equation. If the selection committee would rather send green horses over seasoned horses based in Europe well then that should make you think twice before giving your hard earned money to the USET.. JMO of course

[Velvet]

;)I PROMISED my (American) wife that I would not get involved in this forum, but I simply cannot hold my tongue. Did anyone actually READ Haddad's article?

1) Her writing is superior even by British standards. Of course, US expectations of the English language may have dropped a bit during the Bush administration;).

5) Haddad should not be written off as a contender. She was reserve for your team in 2006 and 7th in the World Cup in 2007, both positions earned mostly by competing in Europe--an amazing record for her first two years of international competition. Her horses keep improving. So why all the fuss?

Move the Selection Trials forward by 3-4 weeks and provide funding for travel so that horses and bank accounts stay healthy. I say that Haddad should jump on a plane and give them all a go in California.

ALL your top contenders should have a fair shot. That's the Olympic spirit.


1) Um, yeah, seems your former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, understood him well enough to get involved in a useless war in Iraq. He spoke well enough to make him believe in WMDs. :lol: (Not that I like the shrub. :p) An attitude that you OWN a language and are the only people who can use it correctly is pretty darned arrogant. And, frankly, I'm tired of the Brits thinking that they own the language. They don't own it in the U.S. anymore. They lost the right to correct us and tell us what to do when we sent them packing back in the 1700s. :lol: I still stand by my opinion that it was not well written enough to be printed in a national publication without an editor; due to some wandering off the point, and some self-aggrandizement that didn't add to the import of the article.

7) No one is writing her off. She has a fair shot. She just has to decide if it's worth the sacrifices she will have to make, if she wants to take that shot. To take that shot you have to take off the time and you have to find the funding. That is the AMERICAN way.

This is what makes it fair for people in the U.S.

(BTW, we don't have anything against her, generally people admire what she's done. The issue is that she if she wants to participate, she has to play by the rules that are currently in place. Just as everyone else does. It might not always be right, but that's part of a democracy. For better or worse...)

[MEP]

Well, I think the US had very respectable results last Olympics using more flexible qualifying criteria. In contrast, and as a cautionary tale, the showjumping teams had unsatisfactory results during the period following the lawsuit when entirely objective and drawn-out qualifiers were employed. It took too much out of the horses.

[ridgeback]

1) Um, yeah, seems your former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, understood him well enough to get involved in a useless war in Iraq. He spoke well enough to make him believe in WMDs. :lol: (Not that I like the shrub. :p) An attitude that you OWN a language and are the only people who can use it correctly is pretty darned arrogant. And, frankly, I'm tired of the Brits thinking that they own the language. They don't own it in the U.S. anymore. They lost the right to correct us and tell us what to do when we sent them packing back in the 1700s. :lol: I still stand by my opinion that it was not well written enough to be printed in a national publication without an editor; due to some wandering off the point, and some self-aggrandizement that didn't add to the import of the article.

7) No one is writing her off. She has a fair shot. She just has to decide if it's worth the sacrifices she will have to make, if she wants to take that shot. To take that shot you have to take off the time and you have to find the funding. That is the AMERICAN way.

This is what makes it fair for people in the U.S.

(BTW, we don't have anything against her, generally people admire what she's done. The issue is that she if she wants to participate, she has to play by the rules that are currently in place. Just as everyone else does. It might not always be right, but that's part of a democracy. For better or worse...)

You are entitled to your opinion that is the American way but it doesn't make it right:D By the way how do you know so much about Catherine's finances? I happen to agree with the Brit!!! see we all have our opinions :lol:

[ridgeback]

Well, I think the US had very respectable results last Olympics using more flexible qualifying criteria. In contrast, and as a cautionary tale, the showjumping teams had unsatisfactory results during the period following the lawsuit when entirely objective and drawn-out qualifiers were employed. It took too much out of the horses.

You are correct about that!!! It should be about the horses but instead the federation is so worried about being sued or who is lining their pockets that they make bad choices..

[Sabine]

(BTW, we don't have anything against her, generally people admire what she's done. The issue is that she if she wants to participate, she has to play by the rules that are currently in place. Just as everyone else does. It might not always be right, but that's part of a democracy. For better or worse...)

The biggest point you're sadly missing Velvet is the fact that the rules change every year or at least for every major event and that they change usually not in her favor- because those that change the rules have an agenda!!
Accept the fact that it's not something that you can easily adjust to...especially if you are based outside of the US.

The rules changed to support those that WERE perceived to be most likely to return and represent the US AGAIN- except that calculation didn't quite add up as planned....which most likely means that the US coach was not involved in those decisions either....so who's at the wheel here??? Who is steering the ship?

And finally- none - I mean absolutely none of this has to do with democracy.

[Hazelnut]

I understood the points that Ms. Haddad was making (not my personal Ms. Haddad, mind you, just Ms. Haddad because it isn't like she's an aquaintence of mine;)).

I speak English and her writing was coherent, to me. I'm an American
(is that relevant?:lol:).

HOW does anyone know NO ONE edited it??:confused: ?? Did someone ask a COTH editor?

It would seem we are slightly behind the main contenders in the selection process:(...contenders for Olympic GOLD that is.:)

I'm glad Ms. Haddad spoke out regarding her concerns. Otherwise, we would not be discussing this.

Carry on!

[ec412]

1) Um, yeah, seems your former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, understood him well enough to get involved in a useless war in Iraq. He spoke well enough to make him believe in WMDs. :lol: (Not that I like the shrub. :p) An attitude that you OWN a language and are the only people who can use it correctly is pretty darned arrogant. And, frankly, I'm tired of the Brits thinking that they own the language. They don't own it in the U.S. anymore. They lost the right to correct us and tell us what to do when we sent them packing back in the 1700s. :lol: I still stand by my opinion that it was not well written enough to be printed in a national publication without an editor; due to some wandering off the point, and some self-aggrandizement that didn't add to the import of the article.

7) No one is writing her off. She has a fair shot. She just has to decide if it's worth the sacrifices she will have to make, if she wants to take that shot. To take that shot you have to take off the time and you have to find the funding. That is the AMERICAN way.

This is what makes it fair for people in the U.S.

(BTW, we don't have anything against her, generally people admire what she's done. The issue is that she if she wants to participate, she has to play by the rules that are currently in place. Just as everyone else does. It might not always be right, but that's part of a democracy. For better or worse...)

Up until now, I have been very happy to read with interest the comments, concerns and opinions expressed in Catherines article. I have been impressed with everyones knowledge and information shared on the topic, allowing me to be better informed about what is going on with the organizations that I support financially.

but geez velvet...you (or as mentioned "we") seem to be the only one missing every point not only in the article, but on every thread. "Fair" is for U.S. citizens to be part of their team, or have a viable option to be part of the team. Not where they choose to reside and continue their training. As others have pointed out..the selection criteria is ever changing, and it appears that this years criteria, makes it difficult to partcipate and puts undo stress on their horses for anyone not currently residing in the U.S. The late selection date puts the entire U.S. team at a disadvantage..This is not only affecting CH, but Heather Blitz as well. I admire these two individuals that went to the dressage mecca to bring a higher level of education and training and don't think they should be penalized for making that choice. Remember, the main point was the "late" date.

I also take exception to the attacks on people's citizenship, and turning this thread into something other than a discussion on the points brought up in the article.

Since I am a first time poster, please excuse me in advance, for any spelling, grammatical errors or run on sentences. I don't have access to an editor, and unfortunately for me, and I guess for you, that I do not have the writing gift. Perhaps that is why I thought that Catherines letter was extremely well written. Velvet, if you would like to re-write my comments in the correct format without changing my viewpoint it would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise, I suggest we all move on and keep to the facts and issues at hand. Thanks to all of you for the fine information presented in this dialogue.

[ridgeback]

The biggest point you're sadly missing Velvet is the fact that the rules change every year or at least for every major event and that they change usually not in her favor- because those that change the rules have an agenda!!
Accept the fact that it's not something that you can easily adjust to...especially if you are based outside of the US.

The rules changed to support those that WERE perceived to be most likely to return and represent the US AGAIN- except that calculation didn't quite add up as planned....which most likely means that the US coach was not involved in those decisions either....so who's at the wheel here??? Who is steering the ship?

And finally- none - I mean absolutely none of this has to do with democracy.


Thanks Sabine for pointing it out again maybe it will finally sink in with Velvet unless of course she has an agenda we don't know about??

[ridgeback]

My point, for clarification to Ridgeback,...(with the circadian rhythms) is that it is dangerous to assume that the "science" in her article is an accurate reflection of the "science." Horses are not elderly rats experiencing chronic changes in light...by the way the young rats did just fine... She makes many assumptions about what is best for horses. Now many of her points seem to make sense, but other statements discredit. There is obviously another side (the USET side to the timeline). I agree with DQNobody, there are some very qualified poeple helping with the animal welfare decisions. Perhaps I read too much into her letter, but my overwhelming impression was that the process just does not work for her circumstances of having her business in Europe. Remember that other team hopefuls were in Europe this fall.... Planning is everything.

OOrchard do you think they studied rats and flying because science invisioned people wanting to fly their pet rats around the world or perhaps it was to study the affects for humans and other animals? I'm asking because I don't know but somehow I'm guessing that is the case..I feel confident you will research it and let all of us know. Doesn't science study rats to find cures for humans? On a side note most olympic level dressage horses are not young, middle aged maybe but not young.:D

[Velvet]

It's okay, EC, you're a newbie. You can't be expected to get it. The fun, I mean. It started out as a serious comment about the article needing editing--from my perspective. I mean, really, what does her having been to Hong Kong really do to help make her point or not? People can just look at the average temperatures on weather.com to find out what it's probably going to be like that time of year (well, maybe not weather.com if they aren't tracking it, but there is information on Hong Kong average temps and weather out on the web). The fun is when someone takes a stab at you, and your country, and you get to parry. :yes: It's part of the board--for better or worse. :lol:

I didn't miss the point of the article at all (even after wading through the extraneous language ;) ). I understand that she feels the powers that be have it out for her and are politically aligned with other members of the team who have been successful for them in the past. I don't think it's entirely true. I think that the travel expectations are unreal, for the selected members when heading to Hong Kong. I've already stated that.

I disagree with it being an undo burden to come to the U.S. for selection trials. Face it, this sport costs a fortune. You can do it at the international levels (I mean competing overseas with the big guns) if you don't have a LOT of money (either your own, or a sponsor). It's just the reality of things.

My comparison of "fair" and using the term "democracy" have to do with growing up with Russia (and East Germany) building teams that were nationally sponsored and people spent all day riding and training and were pre-picked to make the team. They didn't have to make a living on their own. That was where that came from. (Guess it shows my age that I remember when it was the U.S. and Russia as the major world powers--and Russia was a communist country.)

It's as fair as it's going to get, and it's as fair as she's going to get it. She has a chance to make the team. She can make the team. She just has to make some difficult decisions regarding her own hopes and dreams, and $$$$$. That's the point I was making, and that's how I perceive it and that's what I've already stated. :D Maybe it was lost in my own LONG and slc2 like posts/replies :lol: :lol: . BTW, I DO get that the rules change and the coach is not involved. This is also due to the lawsuits the AHSA and USET have endured in the past. It's what happens when you live in a democracy that is also lawsuit happy.

Okay, so now it's time to go back to our regularly scheduled pot stirring, er, programming. :winkgrin:

[DJ]

It's what happens when you live in a democracy that is also lawsuit happy.
edit: Democratic Republic :winkgrin: :lol::lol:

[magdelene]

The only American rider to start at big shows in Europe is Courtney King. She rided at Frankfurt and Stuttgart in 2007.

Mrs Haddad also starts only to big shows. Most CDI-Ws. She is always placing and the GP score is 67-69%.

Mrs King became like scores and placings with both horses in 2007. 66% with Idocus I think and 66% with Mythlius in Frankfurt. Maybe 69% once with this horse.

In America now does she get always over 70% with both horses.

Maybe it is better for Mrs Haddad to go to America and compete. She can win in America also.

[ec412]

I didn't miss the point of the article at all (even after wading through the extraneous language ;) ). I understand that she feels the powers that be have it out for her and are politically aligned with other members of the team who have been successful for them in the past. I don't think it's entirely true. I think that the travel expectations are unreal, for the selected members when heading to Hong Kong. I've already stated that.

I disagree with it being an undo burden to come to the U.S. for selection trials. Face it, this sport costs a fortune. You can do it at the international levels (I mean competing overseas with the big guns) if you don't have a LOT of money (either your own, or a sponsor). It's just the reality of things.

:winkgrin:

"No matter where the horses are based, any horse that competes from 19-29 June in California will have difficulty attaining top fitness for the Olympics in Hong Kong in August. Travel interrupts fitness training. Fitness is required to withstand stress, jet lag and harsh temperatures."

"ANY horse that competes in a two week selction trial in California at the end of June travels on to Europe in July and then on to Hong Kong in August, will not be fit to give 100% in the extreme conditions of the Hong Kong Olympics"

This is what Catherine Haddad stated in her article. There was no mention of finances anywhere. She provided at least three solutions that benefited all rider and horse combinations.

1) Move trials up in California to an earlier date
2) Hold the trials on the East coast at Gladstone
3) Hold the trials in Europe-where they will be quarantined anyway

Her suggestions provided an opportunity for the U.S. to send the fittest team possible, and the opportunity to select the best riders possible without eliminating contenders that did not want to put this traveling strain on their horses in a short amount of time. These solutions provided the best scenario for all riders no matter where they were based. Nowhere in the article did I get the impression, CH was not willing to travel to the U.S. for a selection trial.

In terms of the comment about competing with the big guns. Our two european based contenders are currently doing that.

[AZ TD]

I don't think there is anything "democratic" about the selection criteria. I think it is odd that the US will not select the team until Jun. That much travel just before the Olympics will stress the horses whichever ones are selected, so they may not be at their peak for the competition.
Theresa

[Velvet]

What in the blazes?? The only finance comment I made was that she was going to have to risk losing money with her business when qualifying and being in the U.S.--which isn't something I made up. It was in her article. And as I keep repeating, ad nauseum, that was the ONLY reference I made directly pointed to her article. That she was unable to take the time away, due to her business--which is related to the finances.

Oh, and as for the correction I received on a democratic republic, um, yep...I forgot to add that part. ;)

And people, people, I still say the problem is that we're a democracy (democratic republic) and NOT a communist country. If we were, the selection and training would be much different. The way it is, it seems they are trying to make the process work for those who have proven themselves to be consistent contenders at the Olympic level, without getting sued for keeping other people away. Is it right???? Did I ever say I thought it was RIGHT???? Nope. But it's the way it is. Even back in the 70s you had to know someone and be politically connected to get on the team. That hasn't changed. It won't change. It's the way people work, and it's the nature of the beast when talking about dressage that is a subjective sport anyway.

I think I'm finally done. Have you're fun...or not...with my replies. :lol:

[ec412]

Did anyone take note of the fact that the U.S. Jumping Team Selection trials will be held in Florida, the last weekend in February and the first weekend in March?

Interesting.....this would be an ideal situation for our dressage contenders as well...kudos to the jumping team and the welfare of their horses.

[ridgeback]

It's okay, EC, you're a newbie. You can't be expected to get it. The fun, I mean. It started out as a serious comment about the article needing editing--from my perspective. I mean, really, what does her having been to Hong Kong really do to help make her point or not? People can just look at the average temperatures on weather.com to find out what it's probably going to be like that time of year (well, maybe not weather.com if they aren't tracking it, but there is information on Hong Kong average temps and weather out on the web). The fun is when someone takes a stab at you, and your country, and you get to parry. :yes: It's part of the board--for better or worse. :lol:

I didn't miss the point of the article at all (even after wading through the extraneous language ;) ). I understand that she feels the powers that be have it out for her and are politically aligned with other members of the team who have been successful for them in the past. I don't think it's entirely true. I think that the travel expectations are unreal, for the selected members when heading to Hong Kong. I've already stated that.

I disagree with it being an undo burden to come to the U.S. for selection trials. Face it, this sport costs a fortune. You can do it at the international levels (I mean competing overseas with the big guns) if you don't have a LOT of money (either your own, or a sponsor). It's just the reality of things.

My comparison of "fair" and using the term "democracy" have to do with growing up with Russia (and East Germany) building teams that were nationally sponsored and people spent all day riding and training and were pre-picked to make the team. They didn't have to make a living on their own. That was where that came from. (Guess it shows my age that I remember when it was the U.S. and Russia as the major world powers--and Russia was a communist country.)

It's as fair as it's going to get, and it's as fair as she's going to get it. She has a chance to make the team. She can make the team. She just has to make some difficult decisions regarding her own hopes and dreams, and $$$$$. That's the point I was making, and that's how I perceive it and that's what I've already stated. :D Maybe it was lost in my own LONG and slc2 like posts/replies :lol: :lol: . BTW, I DO get that the rules change and the coach is not involved. This is also due to the lawsuits the AHSA and USET have endured in the past. It's what happens when you live in a democracy that is also lawsuit happy.

Okay, so now it's time to go back to our regularly scheduled pot stirring, er, programming. :winkgrin:

Thank you for making it clear that you have an agenda

[egontoast]

But ridgeback, you are objective, right, and it's only coincidence that you show up on every CH thread. Curious. Are you CH, her student or her mother?:) Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.

[Velvet]

Ah, leave it to eggie to see through the smoke and mirrors. ;)

[ridgeback]

But ridgeback, you are objective, right, and it's only coincidence that you show up on every CH thread. Curious. Are you CH, her student or her mother?:) Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.

Well I think I've said in several threads that I've known CH since college.. I don't have to hide behind an alias to say what I think can any of the rest of you say the same? I have taken lessons with CH years and years ago but it was on a jumper I owned not a dressage horse. P.S. If Courtney, Lisa, Debbie etc had written what CH wrote and this thread was the same I'd say something because it is clear that people have an agenda on this list and have chosen to not understand her main point...I don't live on any list to rack up 5,000 to 10,000 posts. It is clear that some on this thread want to distract from CH main point and make it personal please read all of my posts and see if I've done that...considering I'm just a newbie compared to you board warriors it shouldn't take you long..

[Velvet]

...I don't live on any list to rack up 5,000 to 10,000 posts.

Gee, eggie, I'm confused, do you think she might be talking about us? :eek: :lol: :lol:

Seriously, ridgeback, being proud of saying your name out here is often like that old Far Side with the buck who had a bullseye for a birthmark. :yes:

:lol: :lol:

We come out here to PLAY. No real agenda. We sometimes mix in something very serious, but most of the time we reply and expect things to go off in all directions because that's the nature of this beast/board. It is what it is, and it's actually entertaining. Just look at eggie. :winkgrin:

[ridgeback]

Gee, eggie, I'm confused, do you think she might be talking about us? :eek: :lol: :lol:

Seriously, ridgeback, being proud of saying your name out here is often like that old Far Side with the buck who had a bullseye for a birthmark. :yes:

:lol: :lol:

We come out here to PLAY. No real agenda. We sometimes mix in something very serious, but most of the time we reply and expect things to go off in all directions because that's the nature of this beast/board. It is what it is, and it's actually entertaining. Just look at eggie. :winkgrin:

Give me a break...I got an idea, back away from the computer and go outside you might find a life...tongue in cheek just PLAYING :lol: It's easy to play and have opinions when no one knows who you are...HA HA HA HA.. I was asked if I was CH, her mom, or a student so I answered as for the target on my back hardly I don't say anything inflammatory and I don't hind behind an alias..

[egontoast]

If Courtney, Lisa, Debbie etc had written what CH wrote and this thread was the same I'd say something because it is clear that people have an agenda on this list and have chosen to not understand her main point...

Huh? I'm not even an American so I have no radish in this salad. (NO AGENDA).

You need to lighten up.

You are obviously a very big fan of CH. You always post her results (YAY!) and you always post on any thread about her. There's nothing wrong with that but it's OK for people to notice that without having some weird agenda.

[ridgeback]

Huh? I'm not even an American so I have no radish in this salad. (NO AGENDA).

You need to lighten up.

You are obviously a very big fan of CH. You always post her results (YAY!) and you always post on any thread about her. There's nothing wrong with that but it's OK for people to notice that without having some weird agenda.

Fan isn't the right word really but that's ok:;) Yes of course I post her placings when I happen to catch them and I posted the agenda question before y'all pointed out that I post in CH threads;).. Maybe you can go back and read what I wrote in this thread..

[slc2]

What made Sydney so much less controversial a site?

[ec412]

For further consideration:

Ms. Haddad does not mention the word "finances", but she does discuss in Paragraph 16 of her letter that she had an epiphany about the dollar amount and did not want to leave her business to come here to train.

.

DQ, thank you for the information. I will do some more research on the subject, now that so much information has been presented. You did not mention the German team. I suppose they have somewhat of an advantage if they are all ready chosen, training, and can quarantine in their own Country. It isn't exactly difficult for any of the European teams, considering their travel is like us (in the states) going to a neighboring state. Often a few hours haul.

In the paragraph you referenced, I believe it was stated that leaving a business for an additional three months (april-June) to allow her horse to acclimate properly prior to the June selection trials was staggering. I think most competitors know that for part of June-August they will be absent, either training, or competing, however if it means adding 2-3 months on top of that to do the right thing by your horse, I would have second thoughts as well. I guess I just sympathize with the struggle, and thought the solutions presented were well thought out and made sense.

I also appreciate the manner in which you present your information. I am finding this forum interesting and informative, but it appears that a few posters like to use it as "pot stirring" or for play. I am not interested in that.

To Ridgeback- I thank you also for you open and honest forum. Nothing wrong with supporting a friend..its admirable. I have not seen anything that led me to believe you were skewed or biased.

I guess I have some website scanning to explore.

[Velvet]

Give me a break...I got an idea, back away from the computer and go outside you might find a life...tongue in cheek just PLAYING :lol: It's easy to play and have opinions when no one knows who you are...HA HA HA HA.. I was asked if I was CH, her mom, or a student so I answered as for the target on my back hardly I don't say anything inflammatory and I don't hind behind an alias..

Yep, you're right about your posting your name making you a LOT better than the rest of us. None of us could even hope to come close to the levels you are trying to achieve in your life because we like playing out here and use alters. Bad, bad, naughty Zoot(s)! We must all be spanked! *snicker*

And the number of posts has absolutely nothing to do with having registered a LONG time ago, and being out here for years offering advice and assistance. All of us with 5,000 or more posts are people who sit in a room lit only by the soft glow of our computer monitors, working hard to reach nerdvana. :D

[ridgeback]

Yep, you're right about your posting your name making you a LOT better than the rest of us. None of us could even hope to come close to the levels you are trying to achieve in your life because we like playing out here and use alters. Bad, bad, naughty Zoot(s)! We must all be spanked! *snicker*

And the number of posts has absolutely nothing to do with having registered a LONG time ago, and being out here for years offering advice and assistance. All of us with 5,000 or more posts are people who sit in a room lit only by the soft glow of our computer monitors, working hard to reach nerdvana. :D

Well I think you've made it:) Yes it is easy to be opinonated and arrogant when you hide behind a computer screen. Well if you do the math averaging 3.5 posts a day for 8 years is living on a list if you ask me. Of course JMHO all in good fun right?

[Velvet]

Time to clean out the garage gnomes and bring on the frying pan! :lol:

I'm not hiding. I'm Velvet and I live on the Moon!! :lol:

[canyonoak]

Moving right along:

I'm guessing that the German dressage team will be chosen/made into very tight short list at Balve, June 5-8, 2008, when the German Dressage and Jumping Championships are held.

[Velvet]

Moving right along:



:D Want to move along with the topic at hand? Or move to a bar and have a few drinks? I think the first round should be on me, what do you think, canyonoak? ;)

[Arathita]

1)

7) No one is writing her off. She has a fair shot. She just has to decide if it's worth the sacrifices she will have to make, if she wants to take that shot. To take that shot you have to take off the time and you have to find the funding. That is the AMERICAN way.

This is what makes it fair for people in the U.S.

(BTW, we don't have anything against her, generally people admire what she's done. The issue is that she if she wants to participate, she has to play by the rules that are currently in place. Just as everyone else does. It might not always be right, but that's part of a democracy. For better or worse...)

What is she supposed to do? Charge $70K to her credit card?

The American way is freely speaking out against rules and issues that "aren't right". Catherine appears to be following in the spirit of "the American way". It's amusing that you think you can speak Catherine's mind better than Catherine...or anyone else for that matter. Why not stick to the spirit of her editorial?

[canyonoak]

<< Want to move along with the topic at hand? Or move to a bar and have a few drinks?>>


I live for the day when I walk into a bar--even a WINE bar !-- and the TV is on, and there are DRESSAGE horses, and I plop down onto a stool, order something and join in to the conversation: "How about that Swedish horse!!! That was some kind of pirouette!!!"

[Arathita]

Gee, eggie, I'm confused, do you think she might be talking about us? :eek: :lol: :lol:

Seriously, ridgeback, being proud of saying your name out here is often like that old Far Side with the buck who had a bullseye for a birthmark. :yes:

:lol: :lol:

We come out here to PLAY. No real agenda. We sometimes mix in something very serious, but most of the time we reply and expect things to go off in all directions because that's the nature of this beast/board. It is what it is, and it's actually entertaining. Just look at eggie. :winkgrin:


Play? How old are you?

You often have intelligent things to say. But alot of the time, such as now, you're pretty much acting as a Troll and admitting it. So is Egontoast. It's interesting that you enjoy acting like a troll when the rules of this board clearly state DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. Because apparently, trolls are disruptive and waste bandwidth and give the board a bad name and people get annoyed by them. I think only you and Egontoast are amused by your Troll posts. I'm sure you can get entertainment through intelligent and logical banter.

Ridgeback, you're points are well taken and you don't need to defend your adult-like posts. I wouldn't feed the trolls anymore. They'll go away if they have no one to electronically play with.

[carovet]

I believe the actual quote is
"Bummer of a birth mark Hal"


my favorite of all time other than the veterinary equine exam

:D

[learner]

Velvet & the Eggster are now TROLLS? How adorable. Velvet has the purple hair, and Eggie gets the yellow do. Once the American dressage riders are picked, COTH can send each of them a pair of appropriate troll dolls as good luck charms.

[Sabine]

For further consideration:

The final Dutch team has not been chosen. Every January they name an A team and a B team. Their A team of 9 riders (short list) has been named and they are calling it their Olympic team. However, their final team will be chosen from the Outdoor Gelderland (CDI) and Rotterdam (CHIO), which is at the end of June. This per Eurodressage.

The Canadians are not chosing their final team until the end of June. They are also quarantining in Aachen. This per the Canadian Federation website.

The British Team will not be finalized until the end of June at Rotterdam (CHIO) as per the BEF website. It does not say where they are going to quarantine.

The Swiss withdrew their participation because they felt they could not field an adequate team without the participation of Ms. Ikles, who had 2 horses involved. She did withdraw because she had a horse that does not travel well. She also did not particpate in Las Vegas for the same reason. The team withdrawl was for different reasons. This per Eurodressage.

There were statements made that the US team coach was not involved. No one knows if this is true or not, but if you look at the documents on the USEF website, "Balkenhol" is on them.

Ms. Haddad does not mention the word "finances", but she does discuss in Paragraph 16 of her letter that she had an epiphany about the dollar amount and did not want to leave her business to come here to train.

Courtney King is not the only US based rider to start in major shows in Europe this Fall as Magdalene states. Debbie McDonald rode Felix in the CDI Oldenburg and the CDI Bremen. (Karin Oldfield rode too, but didn't do as well) Magdalene infers that the scores are higher in the US. Magdalene, please read my previous post where it states that Jan Brink, Imke Schellten-Bartels and CH did better in Europe than they did in Las Vegas. Scores per Eurodressage.

Sabine, if you think that there is an agenda and they are trying to keep CH out, please read "Memo to Riders Regarding European Scores" on the USEF website. It states that if you competed in Europe you had until January 15th to decide which of your CDI scores can count. The US based riders did not have that luxury with scores achieved here. So, that means, Heather Blitz's last score of 62.95%5 doesn't count if she doesn't want it to count (which looking at the ranking list, she does not want it to count) because the test was in Europe. If she rode it in the US, it would count and her ranking would be a lot lower. The US based riders have to declare 48 hours before not after their rides if they don't want a score to count. Looks to me that the European based riders have an advantage there.

Read the USEF website and all the attachments. It is very interesting, especially if the snow is deep,you can't ride and have nothing to do.

Shadowdancer, unfortunately, I don't think it is very easy to get funding over here. Everyone is fighting for the same weakened dollars.

Do any of us really know about training and travelling or are we just parroting what we have heard? I cannot believe that all these people (Look at Attachment H) are as ignorant as we are giving them credit for. There is a meeting in Lausanne, Switzerland for this kind of preparation. One of the presenters is a US based professor, Dr Catherine W. Kohn, Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences Ohio State University. I am only guessing, but I bet the USET has consulted with her.

I think that any rider who really has a shot at this is probably training already.

The good news is that besides the riders in Europe, it looks like we have two experienced horses back on the horizon: Kingston and Rocher. Stephan and Lombardi did very well at Aachen and look promising.

DQ- thank you for a great post. A few observations- although we don't have snow here- so I don't have 'down' time- sadly- although we are truly 'frozen' for our usual standards:

All teams you mention- that have final quals in June are based in Europe. It is an advantage to be based there for two reasons:
It's closer to HongKong and the scores are more realistic.
Second- I did not study the website of the USEF in detail and your mentioning of the team coach is definitely a positive factor- however choosing SJC- as the qualifiying site- although I love it because I can go and watch- seems a bit unpractical in many ways- however it would have seemed natural- since our past top contenders are all based (more or less) on the west coast. So steffen, Gunter, Debbie wouldn't have had to travel far to do the final deed. Someone also mentioned to me today- that they (USEF) had to determine a site that matches the approximate date and can be a CDI and has no competition within 50 mile distance- so they can actually hold this qualifier...???(which seems insane to me...) but I do know that the 50 mile rule has been hotly discussed here and seems unpractical...

I do know that the same USEF has qualifiers for the jumpers at the end of February and all this- given our distance from the actual event and the added, known burdens as far as temperature and pollution at the olympic site- should have led to a quicker and more clearly defined qualifying process that would have at least allowed us to determine a shortlist and know that there are- let's say 6 'best horses of 2008' determined and everyone could have focussed on those- including their conditioning and preparation regarding the, to say the least, aggravated circumstances of this competition.

Finally- it seems a notable stance to support those that live, train and stay in the US and become worldclass competitiors representing our country. It seems also natural to taylor the selection process to those that are primarily based here. However there seem to be an increasing number that opt to be either based in Europe or train for significant amounts of time over there- to become seasoned and experienced and tough enough- which is a valid reason. If you look at the sheer size of each competition class at the FEI level- the frequency in which you can attend those shows within reasonable distance and the relative cost of horsekeeping it all makes sense. I am not advocating this- but I am saying let's not specifically punish it either- because it will be a good source of input and experience and hopefully some of these serious riders will return and become great trainers for the future of the US sport.

[egontoast]

Ridgeback, you're points are well taken and you don't need to defend your adult-like posts. I wouldn't feed the trolls anymore. They'll go away if they have no one to electronically play with.

No, actually, calling people trolls does not make them go away. I don't see how it is trollish to point out that a poster who claimed that another poster here had 'an agenda" may not be completely objective herself (based on past postings). If you disagree you must either have an agenda or you are a troll? Very 'adult-like'. :)

Back to regularly scheduled program . You are missing some interesting discussion with your name calling......:cool:

[ridgeback]

:yes:Play? How old are you?

You often have intelligent things to say. But alot of the time, such as now, you're pretty much acting as a Troll and admitting it. So is Egontoast. It's interesting that you enjoy acting like a troll when the rules of this board clearly state DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. Because apparently, trolls are disruptive and waste bandwidth and give the board a bad name and people get annoyed by them. I think only you and Egontoast are amused by your Troll posts. I'm sure you can get entertainment through intelligent and logical banter.

Ridgeback, you're points are well taken and you don't need to defend your adult-like posts. I wouldn't feed the trolls anymore. They'll go away if they have no one to electronically play with.

You are so correct...thanks! let them play with themselves:yes:

[snoopy]

<< Want to move along with the topic at hand? Or move to a bar and have a few drinks?>>


I live for the day when I walk into a bar--even a WINE bar !-- and the TV is on, and there are DRESSAGE horses, and I plop down onto a stool, order something and join in to the conversation: "How about that Swedish horse!!! That was some kind of pirouette!!!"


You will have to move to europe for that...where it is not out of the ordinary.:D

[Velvet]

I believe the actual quote is
"Bummer of a birth mark Hal"


my favorite of all time other than the veterinary equine exam

:D

Hey, I don't remember seeing the veterinary equine exam Far Side. What was that one?

I still love the one that ridgeback obviously went to. I believe it was something to do with a school for the gifted and not understanding how to open the door. ;)

For those who are disappointed, just take a look. I never attacked ridgeback. The only person I was truly "playing" with was our non-American poster borrowing his wife's alter--because he attacked the U.S.A. ridgey was just annoyed with the fact that I restated something from CH's article, and that I said I didn't like the article/letter's content because I felt it was in serious need of an editor. And it appears it was if the other quote out here backing up my comment about her lacking the financial resources if she left Europe for anytime was in paragraph 15! :eek: I still felt it wandered far from the main point, or what I assumed was the main point. It was hard to tell with all that wandering and unrelated information. And that was my opinion. I have a right to it, just as CH has a right to voice her opinion in a public manner. :rolleyes: I guess some people just can't see the forest for all those darned trees...

Now back to the bar and tipping each other off our bar stools. We haven't done that in a long time. I believe the last time was when suzy started it and then she dared slc to mud wrestle with me. Ah, the good old days.... :D

[ridgeback]

DQ, thank you for the information. I will do some more research on the subject, now that so much information has been presented. You did not mention the German team. I suppose they have somewhat of an advantage if they are all ready chosen, training, and can quarantine in their own Country. It isn't exactly difficult for any of the European teams, considering their travel is like us (in the states) going to a neighboring state. Often a few hours haul.

In the paragraph you referenced, I believe it was stated that leaving a business for an additional three months (april-June) to allow her horse to acclimate properly prior to the June selection trials was staggering. I think most competitors know that for part of June-August they will be absent, either training, or competing, however if it means adding 2-3 months on top of that to do the right thing by your horse, I would have second thoughts as well. I guess I just sympathize with the struggle, and thought the solutions presented were well thought out and made sense.

I also appreciate the manner in which you present your information. I am finding this forum interesting and informative, but it appears that a few posters like to use it as "pot stirring" or for play. I am not interested in that.

To Ridgeback- I thank you also for you open and honest forum. Nothing wrong with supporting a friend..its admirable. I have not seen anything that led me to believe you were skewed or biased.

I guess I have some website scanning to explore.

Thank you and I happen to agree with you:D:lol:

[yaya]

Hey, I don't remember seeing the veterinary equine exam Far Side. What was that one?



That was the one with the girl reading a textbook, and the caption was, "Like most veterinary students, Doreen breezed through Chapter 9"

We are looking over her shoulder, and the book reads: "Equine Medicine"
And then a list of ailments with treatments:
Broken leg - shoot
Itchy tail - shoot
poor eyesight - shoot
and on and on, all with the treatment of "shoot"

Love Gary Larson!
The biology department of my college had a huge bulletin board wall filled with his cartoons.

[poltroon]

That was the one with the girl reading a textbook, and the caption was, "Like most veterinary students, Doreen breezed through Chapter 9"

We are looking over her shoulder, and the book reads: "Equine Medicine"
And then a list of ailments with treatments:
Broken leg - shoot
Itchy tail - shoot
poor eyesight - shoot
and on and on, all with the treatment of "shoot"

Love Gary Larson!
The biology department of my college had a huge bulletin board wall filled with his cartoons.

My vet's office has that prominently posted as well. :D

[Velvet]

:lol:

[Lexi]

Why Ms. Haddad has not taken her concerns directly to the USET?maybe because the USET no longer exists?

she has already taken her concerns to the appropriate entity, which is the USEF.

the only other entity to address them with is the USOC. and given the potential ramifications, a public airing is probably the better second move, politically speaking.

[ec412]

For further consideration:


Courtney King is not the only US based rider to start in major shows in Europe this Fall as Magdalene states. Debbie McDonald rode Felix in the CDI Oldenburg and the CDI Bremen. (Karin Oldfield rode too, but didn't do as well) Magdalene infers that the scores are higher in the US. Magdalene, please read my previous post where it states that Jan Brink, Imke Schellten-Bartels and CH did better in Europe than they did in Las Vegas. Scores per Eurodressage.

Sabine, if you think that there is an agenda and they are trying to keep CH out, please read "Memo to Riders Regarding European Scores" on the USEF website. It states that if you competed in Europe you had until January 15th to decide which of your CDI scores can count. The US based riders did not have that luxury with scores achieved here. So, that means, Heather Blitz's last score of 62.95%5 doesn't count if she doesn't want it to count (which looking at the ranking list, she does not want it to count) because the test was in Europe. If she rode it in the US, it would count and her ranking would be a lot lower. The US based riders have to declare 48 hours before not after their rides if they don't want a score to count. Looks to me that the European based riders have an advantage there.

Read the USEF website and all the attachments. It is very interesting, especially if the snow is deep,you can't ride and have nothing to do.

.


Thanks for bringing us back from the far side! I think a separate thread should be started on that one!

I did get a chance to get on the web site to look at the memo's however not sure if I am just a skeptic, however this is what I noticed. First memo dated October 18th, 2007 describing the selection trials. It states all scores will be used, no drop scores from any U.S. or European CDI.

Then I noticed Show records in Europe for Kristina Harrison-Naness, Debbie McDonald and Courtney King between Oct and December with scores ranging from lows of 61, 64, and 65% to highest obtained 71.40% in the updated ranking dated 1/28/08.

Lastly, I noted a memo dated December 5th 2007 clarifying European qualifying scores. ANY RIDER who has competed in a European CDI after July 1, 2007 and prior to January 1, 2008 must inform the USEF in writing if they do not wish to have those CDI scores to count toward final rankings.

This seemed to come after some lower scores were earned by the U.S. based riders in Europe, so not sure this was written to benefit any European based rider, although they will be able to utilize this rule.

I think this points to the fact that overall scores in Europe are lower than those obtained in the U.S.and possible concern over "preselected" riders averages being lowered by their European tour. Not sure how the playing field can be leveled without bringing the European based riders to the States or Stateside to Europe.

So we are back to the question at hand...what would be wrong with having the selection trials earlier to allow all possible contenders to participate without flying their horses, around the globe in an 4 week period? Just a thought...

[ridgeback]

Thanks for bringing us back from the far side! I think a separate thread should be started on that one!

I did get a chance to get on the web site to look at the memo's however not sure if I am just a skeptic, however this is what I noticed. First memo dated October 18th, 2007 describing the selection trials. It states all scores will be used, no drop scores from any U.S. or European CDI.

Then I noticed Show records in Europe for Kristina Harrison-Naness, Debbie McDonald and Courtney King between Oct and December with scores ranging from lows of 61, 64, and 65% to highest obtained 71.40% in the updated ranking dated 1/28/08.

Lastly, I noted a memo dated December 5th 2007 clarifying European qualifying scores. ANY RIDER who has competed in a European CDI after July 1, 2007 and prior to January 1, 2008 must inform the USEF in writing if they do not wish to have those CDI scores to count toward final rankings.

This seemed to come after some lower scores were earned by the U.S. based riders in Europe, so not sure this was written to benefit any European based rider, although they will be able to utilize this rule.

I think this points to the fact that overall scores in Europe are lower than those obtained in the U.S.and possible concern over "preselected" riders averages being lowered by their European tour. Not sure how the playing field can be leveled without bringing the European based riders to the States or Stateside to Europe.

So we are back to the question at hand...what would be wrong with having the selection trials earlier to allow all possible contenders to participate without flying their horses, around the globe in an 4 week period? Just a thought...

Wow thanks for the info and still a good question that no one has answered.

[ec412]

From this whole discussion, what I realize:

Maybe waiting until June is not a stupid idea. The Nominated Entries are due at the end of June (per the FEI Rules for the Olympic Games), so that must be why none of the countries are naming teams until then.



Waiting until June to name their teams is one thing...waiting to have the selections trials until June is another.

I also noticed on the Canadian team website that they too are waiting to name their team, however the rankings come from the shows they are doing from the entire season or year. It would appear by looking at standings and available shows until June, it would be apparent who is on the team long before the end of June. I did not see a "final selection trial" listed on the site, or in their qualification rule..but I could have missed it.

[Dutch]

The Canadians are not having a final selection trial this time. There's a whole other thread on the Canadian criteria.

[Dressagegroom]

So we are back to the question at hand...what would be wrong with having the selection trials earlier to allow all possible contenders to participate without flying their horses, around the globe in an 4 week period? Just a thought...


The problem with bringing the trials forward is that the criteria is set with the final qualifying CDI in North Carolina on June 1.

Anyone attending this show will need the time to get to California and show, so mid-late June is the only option.

I'm sure many riders are trying to make a last ditch deffort to make the team and have planned their shows by the published schedule. It would not be fair to these riders.

The unfortunate fact is that the USA does not have the depth of other nations to name short lists earlier, it is to the teams advantage to have trials close to the games to ensure the top contenders are representing the USA.

[dutchfan]

All teams you mention- that have final quals in June are based in Europe. It is an advantage to be based there for two reasons:
It's closer to HongKong and the scores are more realistic.
.


Actually europe is farther. It is 8300 air miles from Frankfurt to Hong Kong. It is 7200 air miles from LAX to Hongkong. Almost 1000 miles closer....

[slc2]

Or an hour extra in the air. Nothing compared to an inactive quarantine...or to leaving your business for five months and taking multiple flights, multiple quarantines, etc. It definitely depends on the quarantine facility, though. At some quarantines it is really a problem (no, i have not quarantined an international horse for the olympics, but quarantine stations do vary alot), the riding can go on quite as usual, footing is great, etc, and the flights are often less bumpy and stressful than a ride in a trailer of the same length of time. Unless the flight has serious problems, flights are usually less stressful than trailer rides.

I think the objections have more to do with leaving one's business for so long, and going from the country where one is based, to one's original country to qualify, back to the original country, then to hong kong. even if someone foots part of the bill, i still think owner/riders wind up paying something. and going without income for 2, 3, 5 months? Most people would wind up in the poor house if they did. That is absolutely huge. One also can argue that the olympians need to plan for that if they want to go to the olympics, but it's still huge.

the farther and longer one has to travel, and the more costs go up, the less easy it is to go without income for 2, 3, 5 months. so as time goes on each subsequent olympic game, which also includes more countries and more far flung sites, becomes more difficult to take horses to.

the logical solution is that if a great many people interested in the sport all train in holland, germany and denmark, which they seem to, why make them travel to some other country to compete? it's a little strange to do that.

one thing i don't understand, is if the swiss lady's horses don't travel well, why they couldn't be sedated or given some calming medication. horses at that level have likely been sedated for veterinary procedures.

[Sabine]

Actually europe is farther. It is 8300 air miles from Frankfurt to Hong Kong. It is 7200 air miles from LAX to Hongkong. Almost 1000 miles closer....

True- but if you are in LAX to do the selection and then go to Frankfurt to do the quarantene and then from there to go to Hongkong - you have added the distance from LAX to Frankfurt- that could actually be saved....(sorry not to be clear in what I wanted to say).

[canyonoak]

From DQNobody and me <g>:


Dutch: their final team will be chosen from the Outdoor Gelderland (CDI) and Rotterdam (CHIO), which is at the end of June. This per Eurodressage.


British Team will not be finalized until the end of June at Rotterdam (CHIO) as per the BEF website. It does not say where they are going to quarantine

The Canadians are not chosing their final team until the end of June.

German dressage team will be chosen/made into very tight short list at Balve, June 5-8, 2008, when the German Dressage and Jumping Championships are held.
__________________
and I daresay JUNE is when most teams /individual riders will indeed be chosen. AND selecton shows/trials held.

SOP.

[ridgeback]

True- but if you are in LAX to do the selection and then go to Frankfurt to do the quarantene and then from there to go to Hongkong - you have added the distance from LAX to Frankfurt- that could actually be saved....(sorry not to be clear in what I wanted to say).

Hong Kong is 16 hours ahead of CA and 7 hours ahead of Germany not sure if that is an advantage for the Europeans or not?? You can't sedate the horses because they will flunk the drug test.. Remember the German's lost their gold medal for jumpers last olympics because a rider used a cream on the horse that had something in it that would test.

[ridgeback]

My questions are not meant to stir things up. Only to learn:




I thought there was still a USET, but aren't they the ones still in Gladstone? I am so confused.

I didn't know CH took her issues to the USET, so what in heavens did they say? I think it would have helped her case if she put it in her letter. Why not take the issue to the USOC?

Again, excuse my lack of experience, but why have selections early if you wait to name the team at the end of June? I would think that there would be all sorts of legal stuff if there is that much time between that selection and the naming of the team. Wouldn't it give the riders like Courtney on M., Steffen on Prince and even Heather on Otto a bit more time to get it together. Or again a 'dark horse' like what Robert Dover did with Kennedy? Especially because it looks like we really lack depth.

I do like the idea of sending a panel of judges between the coasts but how would you adjust scores if one coast had blistering heat and the other had tornadoes? Don't they have to have the same conditions? Wouldn't it open it up for more legal stuff?

DQ I think you nailed it on the head with the legal stuff...

[ec412]

Thanks for bringing us back from the far side! I think a separate thread should be started on that one!

I did get a chance to get on the web site to look at the memo's however not sure if I am just a skeptic, however this is what I noticed. First memo dated October 18th, 2007 describing the selection trials. It states all scores will be used, no drop scores from any U.S. or European CDI.

Then I noticed Show records in Europe for Kristina Harrison-Naness, Debbie McDonald and Courtney King between Oct and December with scores ranging from lows of 61, 64, and 65% to highest obtained 71.40% in the updated ranking dated 1/28/08.

Lastly, I noted a memo dated December 5th 2007 clarifying European qualifying scores. ANY RIDER who has competed in a European CDI after July 1, 2007 and prior to January 1, 2008 must inform the USEF in writing if they do not wish to have those CDI scores to count toward final rankings.

This seemed to come after some lower scores were earned by the U.S. based riders in Europe, so not sure this was written to benefit any European based rider, although they will be able to utilize this rule.

I think this points to the fact that overall scores in Europe are lower than those obtained in the U.S.and possible concern over "preselected" riders averages being lowered by their European tour. Not sure how the playing field can be leveled without bringing the European based riders to the States or Stateside to Europe.

So we are back to the question at hand...what would be wrong with having the selection trials earlier to allow all possible contenders to participate without flying their horses, around the globe in an 4 week period? Just a thought...

I think the information here says it all...if I interpreted the memos correctly and the information I have learned from this forum...my conclusion is the USEF and selection committe, has decided to make the rules that fit the riders that they want to send...voila! we have a team.

[ridgeback]

I think the information here says it all...if I interpreted the memos correctly and the information I have learned from this forum...my conclusion is the USEF and selection committe, has decided to make the rules that fit the riders that they want to send...voila! we have a team.

I think you are right... I still will cheer for the U.S. and more importantly will pray the horses come out of this ok..

[Sabine]

Hong Kong is 16 hours ahead of CA and 7 hours ahead of Germany not sure if that is an advantage for the Europeans or not?? You can't sedate the horses because they will flunk the drug test.. Remember the German's lost their gold medal for jumpers last olympics because a rider used a cream on the horse that had something in it that would test.

timeclock does not mean a thing...LOL! it actually fools you. As said before - the distance from LAX to Hongkong is shorter than from Frankfurt to Hongkong...i.e. if our selected team- that will be determined in SJC- my home town...;)! can fly from LAX to Hongkong- they have a sweet deal...why can't we do that???

[canyonoak]

Mildly sedating a horse for plane travel which will take place around July 24-26, in order for a horse to pass vet inspection Aug 13..somehow, I dont see that as a major problem.

[OOrchard]

Horray for DQ! I only have one clarification to the score issue. Were Debbie's scores on Felix or Brentina??? If Felix, maybe it is apples and oranges..? OK, Ridgeback. You have to admit her science is a bit stretched. I certainly wouldn't like to rely on her interpretation of a clinical trial. That however is not what she does...she rides. What I objected to was her stating her interpretation (which is frankly hard to back) as fact in a national, public article. I find it messy, misleading, and far off the main point that she was trying to convey. Now since you actually know her...did she really flick off a judge?! Perhaps I have read too many boards...and don't take it the wrong way...maybe it is an urban legend... Since I asked you that question, I'll probably get kicked off. I promise I am not a troll (3rd and last post in my life) as I am way too short....

[PiaffeDreams]

Debbie's scores in Europe this fall were on Felix

[ridgeback]

timeclock does not mean a thing...LOL! it actually fools you. As said before - the distance from LAX to Hongkong is shorter than from Frankfurt to Hongkong...i.e. if our selected team- that will be determined in SJC- my home town...;)! can fly from LAX to Hongkong- they have a sweet deal...why can't we do that???

You have heard of jet lag have you not:) ;)

[ridgeback]

Mildly sedating a horse for plane travel which will take place around July 24-26, in order for a horse to pass vet inspection Aug 13..somehow, I dont see that as a major problem.

You may not but it is:) See below from the 2004 olympics

"According to England's Horse and Hound, James Sheeran, BVSc, veterinarian for Waterford Crystal, had given the horse a mild sedative during hydrotherapy treatment for a fetlock injury on July 22, but felt the drug residues should have dissipated before the Olympics."

[ec412]

Horray for DQ! I only have one clarification to the score issue. Were Debbie's scores on Felix or Brentina??? If Felix, maybe it is apples and oranges..? OK, Ridgeback. You have to admit her science is a bit stretched. I certainly wouldn't like to rely on her interpretation of a clinical trial. That however is not what she does...she rides. What I objected to was her stating her interpretation (which is frankly hard to back) as fact in a national, public article. I find it messy, misleading, and far off the main point that she was trying to convey. Now since you actually know her...did she really flick off a judge?! Perhaps I have read too many boards...and don't take it the wrong way...maybe it is an urban legend... Since I asked you that question, I'll probably get kicked off. I promise I am not a troll (3rd and last post in my life) as I am way too short....

I would not let it be your last post, I find your information quite helpful and well thought out. Debbie was on Felix..your right, not apples to apples but that is the horse that she is currently preparing, we have not heard if Brentina will be back.

Urban legend: I would not pay attention to rumors, they are usually not true and more often than not, highly exaggerated. I can't confirm or deny as I have not heard of what you are referring to.

On the Science front, would it have helped if a scientific publication was footnoted? I actually interpreted it as another tongue in cheek comment about the excessive travel demands on any horse so close to the games. For myself, I know that it takes me a full week to get my sleep rhythms etc back on track after returning from Europe. I am not sure if it is true science or not, but interestingly I did find this while googling. I obviously don't have enough to do!

[PDF]Society
Transmeridian flights (east to west or west to east) that rapidly cross time ..... For rats on lifespan stud-. ies, a caloric-restricted diet presented ...

www.springerlink.com/index/n32p442168878qm1.pdf - Similar pages

http://www.springerlink.com/index/n32p442168878qm1.pdf

I could not open the article as you needed to be a member.

[canyonoak]

<<
"According to England's Horse and Hound, James Sheeran, BVSc, veterinarian for Waterford Crystal, had given the horse a mild sedative during hydrotherapy treatment for a fetlock injury on July 22, but felt the drug residues should have dissipated before the Olympics." ..
__________________


Cian O'Connor's horse was proven to have been given a human psychotropic drug which is MEANT to be long-lasting, ie, 6 weeks accoding to my vets.

Hardly the same thing as a short term sedative for a plane trip.
please--can we stick to reality.

[ridgeback]

<<
"According to England's Horse and Hound, James Sheeran, BVSc, veterinarian for Waterford Crystal, had given the horse a mild sedative during hydrotherapy treatment for a fetlock injury on July 22, but felt the drug residues should have dissipated before the Olympics." ..
__________________


Cian O'Connor's horse was proven to have been given a human psychotropic drug which is MEANT to be long-lasting, ie, 6 weeks accoding to my vets.

Hardly the same thing as a short term sedative for a plane trip.
please--can we stick to reality.

I'm just quoting the vets words, take it up with him.. If you think I'm wrong then ask any olympic rider if they would give their horse a sedative that close to competition:lol: Maybe you need to get on the phone and tell the swiss team you have a solution...

[canyonoak]

You are silly, ridgeback, and this is a fairly serious area of concern.

let's just agree to move on.

here's something else for you to chew on: Im making a bet with friends that Catherine Haddad rides in the US based selection trials.

[ridgeback]

You are silly, ridgeback, and this is a fairly serious area of concern.

let's just agree to move on.

here's something else for you to chew on: Im making a bet with friends that Catherine Haddad rides in the US based selection trials.

You are correct it is a serious issue and I was just trying to enlighten you on sedation:) ;) Good luck on your bet keep us posted

[ridgeback]

I bet if you ask ec412, you would be going directly to the source.

Hardly....ROTFLMAO...maybe dqnobody is really somebody who has a stake in these selection trials..

[ridgeback]

Sorry. Wish I did have a stake. I am only a second level rider and I don't have a fancy warmblood nor do I have access to professional help on any kind of basis. I can't ride much in the winter because I have to deal with awful winters and I don't have an indoor. That is why I read the boards so that I can keep learning. I am just a nobody.

I work in the law enforcement field. I am fascinated by laws and rules. I am also fascinated by the Olympics and the entire process. I don't like it when things aren't fair. When I first read Catherine's letter, I was right there with her. Now I am not so certain. I would like to still be right there with her, but I'm afraid that I don't think I agree with all her points. That is why I asked my questions.

Ridgeback, I don't know these people personally like you do. They all are like rock stars to me.

Really is that why you accused ec412 of being Catherine?? :confused:

[ec412]

I bet if you ask ec412, you would be going directly to the source.

What are you suggesting DQ, you think I am Catherine Haddad? This is Robin from IL.... who are you DQ Nobody?

Funny, in this forum..I have respected all the information you have provided..and in fact found out alot by going to the website at YOUR recomendation. While there looked at two memo's and looked at standings. I did not know any of that until you brought it up and suggested that we read the criteria. I respected your request and did so...but the information I found there was interesting.

Also interesting, anyone that thought the letter she wrote, was well written and agreed with her is now becoming her? (or maybe her mother) First it was Ridgeback, now me, why not shadow something or other...could that be CH? Was the British thing or the thing about his American wife just something to throw us off?

[ec412]

Sorry. Wish I did have a stake. I am only a second level rider and I don't have a fancy warmblood nor do I have access to professional help on any kind of basis. I can't ride much in the winter because I have to deal with awful winters and I don't have an indoor. That is why I read the boards so that I can keep learning. I am just a nobody.

I work in the law enforcement field. I am fascinated by laws and rules. I am also fascinated by the Olympics and the entire process. I don't like it when things aren't fair. When I first read Catherine's letter, I was right there with her. Now I am not so certain. I would like to still be right there with her, but I'm afraid that I don't think I agree with all her points. That is why I asked my questions.

Ridgeback, I don't know these people personally like you do. They all are like rock stars to me.

Dear DQNobody, First of all, nobody is a NOBODY. You are you, and the fact that you want to learn...along with the rest of us is admirable. The only way we will become better right? I too am fascinated by the rules etc..that is why I found all the information presented by everyone so interesting. Why I took all of the comments to heart, and did more research, so that I did not take the letter at face value. You know what? My conclusion was the same as when I first read the letter..even more so when I began to really delve into it.

A little about me... I am a third level rider with a nice horse that is helping me learn more. I know at some level all the riders involved in the selection process except one- Courtney King. I have met, ridden with, clinic'd or audited a clinic with all of them. I have personally seen all of them ride both here in the U.S. and in Europe (except Courtney King in Europe, only U.S.) I have seen the score discrepancies between here and the U.S. I have seen rides that had problems here, but because of the "name" it appeared that scores were given that might not reflect the ride. Does that make me an expert..absolutely not, just an interested party that pays attention and wants the best team to represent the U.S. From where I sit, (an outsider) it just appears that there is alot of politics involved in the decisions.

I found the "digression to Science" interesting from OOrchard, so decided to see if I could find anything to support the idea and googled. You too can google and see what you come up with. That is all...nothing more.

[ridgeback]

Horray for DQ! I only have one clarification to the score issue. Were Debbie's scores on Felix or Brentina??? If Felix, maybe it is apples and oranges..? OK, Ridgeback. You have to admit her science is a bit stretched. I certainly wouldn't like to rely on her interpretation of a clinical trial. That however is not what she does...she rides. What I objected to was her stating her interpretation (which is frankly hard to back) as fact in a national, public article. I find it messy, misleading, and far off the main point that she was trying to convey. Now since you actually know her...did she really flick off a judge?! Perhaps I have read too many boards...and don't take it the wrong way...maybe it is an urban legend... Since I asked you that question, I'll probably get kicked off. I promise I am not a troll (3rd and last post in my life) as I am way too short....


First I know nothing about flicking off a judge heck I don't even know what that means:lol: but it doesn't sound good.. I can tell you I've known CH for a long time and I would be beyond shocked if that ever happened it just isn't who she is(at least the CH I know). I will say CH isn't the easiest to get to know and I think that people read something into that..I have known some of the rumors that have circulated about her and I can tell you they aren't true.. I have to wonder why people try to stir crap up but it is the horse world it happens at every level...I also wonder why don't some of these riders sit back and think why are these people telling me this gossip what is their motive..I guess what I'm saying is I think people see something or hear something and interpert it the way they want to and then run back to spread what they think is true when in reality it isn't.

[slc2]

The american riders don't score as high in Europe as they do at home, it's been that way for a long, long time.

There is a very strong tendency of American (spectators?) to assume that if we are not winning everything in sight, it has to be because the judges are corrupt. Because there were some problems with skating judges, it doesn't necessarily mean all the dressage judges in Europe score american riders low.

In the early times, we 'did well under very limited circumstances. Let's take some of our early successes at the Olympics. When we had an American judge at the Olympics, he gave our riders scores that were up to EIGHTY points higher than the scores the other judges gave them. If our riders had been scored similarly by all judges, they would not have done as well as they did.

I've followed dressage for over 40 years. During that time I've seen nothing but improvement. Our American riders just keep getting better and better and better. We have come so far. Those early riders who ventured over to Europe - Edith Master, Jessica Ransenhousen, they did INCREDIBLE things given the amount of coaching and exposure they had. To venture into a sport in which America was not a power, to go to a different country, to cope with the established riders...incredible. And since then all the scores have done have gone up. I have yet to understand what ANYONE has to be unhappy about.

I'm doing a spreadsheet comparing our scores in the Olympics over the years, and it is getting better (directly related to who coaches us), but it was a lot of ground to cover.

In other sports it's fairly well accepted that if you get really good coaches, who have won the events you want to win, that you have a better chance of winning, because those coaches can teach you what you need to do to win, from riding to selecting horses, to planning, etc.

But with dressage, we have a little bit of a logical disconnect. If we don't win, there's a problem with the judges. That's all it can be, it can't be anything else. And we have, unfortunately, American riders who will loudly voice same to media.

And I never thought it was because the judges were unfair. I thought it was because we were not riding as well as the European riders. I could look at the rides and think, 'well, that won't score very well', and it didn't. If you pretend it's not an American rider, it's easier to see the faults and connect up the score with the faults.

I am sure there are times that judges are unfair. But I don't think that judging is all that subjective, and I don't think ALL dressage judges, a preponderance of the time, judge unfairly.

American judges score higher than European judges. We used to laugh our butts off when a show management would get European judges. SOMEONE's not going to get the scores they want, LOL. But I actually liked it. Why? We learned more. We learned to ride better.

Some people also say European judges score higher when they are in America, but it would be hard to really demonstrate that because the entries in the classes are always different in usa and europe. It's claimed this is done because judges are pressured to do so by show management. "Score up or don't count on ever coming back" might not be much impetus when the judge already has plenty of gigs.

The other claim is that away from the destructive influence of the evil European organizations, the frightened little judges finally loosen up their pens and judge fairly the brilliant american riders. Like the european organizations don't have a clue what they do far, far away in America. Perhaps they have morse code telegraphs, we don't know.

When the judge is used to seeing more, he expects more.

When our riders go over to Europe to prepare for competitions like the WEG or Olympics, the lead up competitions are very carefully chosen so the riders can score well (smaller shows), but they often then don't score as well at say the WEG or Olympics as they do at those lead-up shows.

[ec412]

I think SLC sums it up nicely...

The American riders are the best in America and rewarded as such..The American riders in Europe are riding with the top ranked riders in the World..so the bar is higher.. perhaps why we send our riders to compete there?

In addition, the shows are big, loud, electric..(especially the indoor ones.) Clapping, chanting, loud music etc. Great experience for a horse to be placed in that environment. I would find myself in the next country on my horse in that environment!

Lastly, there is something to be said about "home advantage". Small errors appear to be overlooked when riding in your own Country..This seems universal, and our European based American riders never have that advantage.