Rude, bargey horse- ideas?

[kookicat]

Just been out to skip out and give hay. I have a new horse on the yard, a 12y/o Welsh Cob gelding. He's been here for three weeks now, and I dislike him. A lot.

His owner is a novice, and he has no ground manners at all. He runs you over, won't move out of your space and brages out of his box if you open the door. I've been working with him every day, doing basic groundwork and he's not getting any better. It's getting to the point where I don't want to deal with his ass any more.

What else should I be doing? He just won't give me any respect- I'm very firm with him, and his owner hasn't been handling him. I've smacked him a few times and he just comes back harder.

Whoops, sorry for the novel.

[Dianna]

Rome wasn't built in a day, and this horse's lack of manners wasn't either. I take it you are the barn owner and this is your facility. If I am correct. then you need to have a sit down, come to Jesus session with your owner, and then you have to demonstrate to her how to establish boundaries with this horse ... EXVET has Welsh Cobs and while they are all well mannered, they can be a bit bullish at times (I shudder to think what they would be like if they were bigger than 15 hands).

But it will take all of you working together to resolve this issue, and it will be a labor of love and well worth the effort, if you can get the owner on board.

[kookicat]

Hi

Owner is totally on board with this- she's scared of him right now. I agree with you about them being 'bullish'! He's fairly small- 14.1 ish, thank the lord! ;)

He just has zero respect for humans right now. :(

[gabz]

Do you ever use chains over the nose? We call it "shanking" when we briskly tug downward on the lead that is attached to the chain over the nose to get a horse's attention. The chain goes through the link in the halter on the near side, across the nose band, through the link in the halter on the far side and under the chin to the lead rope.

I have also carried a riding bat or dressage whip and smack "bargey" horses in the chest while "grunting" and yelling at them. Lessons include backing up, backing up, and more backing up. I know of folks who keep what we call "Whiffle Bats" (large diameter plastic children's baseball bats) around to whack bargey horses with... it makes a WONDERFULLY loud noise that scares the CRAP out of the horse!!! :D

And... if necessary, a BRISK smack of the feed bucket in the chest with another loud "GET BACK" is wonderful natural horsemanship... don't you think? ;)

[kookicat]

My NH must be very good then, cause I've smacked him with a feed bucket already! :)

I already carry a crop when I'm dealing with him, and have a rope over his nose but I'll try the chain. :)

I want to stop him barging out of his stable ASAP- I hate it because it's so dangerous.

[thumbsontop]

And... if necessary, a BRISK smack of the feed bucket in the chest with another loud "GET BACK" is wonderful natural horsemanship... don't you think? ;)

I do believe I may have used that method this evening! I have a thick-skulled perch cross who just isn't sensitive enough to get a subtle cue. What's funny though is that I had someone work with him doing parelli stuff one day and I'll be damned if that horse wasn't acting like a freakin' ballerina. :D I will have to go back to regular groundwork sessions...I don't think that will ever be something we can put behind us.

Oops! Sorry! I went off on a tangent!!!

[enjoytheride]

Since he's in your barn and you probably handle him more then the owner it's pretty much your job to train him right!

Let the owner know what goes on and give her updates. When a new horse comes to my barn the BO and myself always tell the owner how the horse is and if we had any problems.

Most recently a horse came with no manners and we had to teach him how to be caught, how to put his halter on, and how to put his head down so we could halter him!

"snookums did not want to be caught so I had a little free lunge session until he decided that coming in was a better idea"

[goeslikestink]

if hes a welsh its not just ground handling he needs working to simulate his mind
get him out and tack him up and work the horse
they are well know for being boulshy -- welsh horses are smart like a pony as they have a lot of pony triats-- but can also do the work of a horse

so put him to work --- he will behave ten times better if you get on and ride him

[classicsporthorses]

I get these kinds in all the time and in all sizes. Last year I got in a nearly 17 hand 6+ year old gelding who was the biggest PITA. Barged, kicked, bit, struck you name it. He learned very very quickly what the rules were here, now from time to time he still tries to see if they have changed. He's still here as his owner is very ill.

His owner used to handled him with a chain, I only used it once. He would try to bolt out of a stall too and the first time he did that I turned his sorry a** around so fast his head spun and I backed him right down the barn aisle and back into this stall. I stated "Let's try this one again". It took only a few tries and he got the idea. Now he is a perfect gentleman.

All of our horses know they are to wait at the door of their stall or any other opening, either entering or exiting until said human is out of the way and gives said horse the okay to move. We use the word "wait". You could say "peaches" it really does not matter it just has to have an action associated with it.

Even when we are distributing hay in the pastures they all know, and the new ones learn quickly that they are to stand back and quietly as we cut open the bales and disburse them around. I have 30+ horses here and even the babies know to wait.

[kookicat]

Thanks everyone- all of mine will move back when you go into the stable.

Yep, I'll be giving the owner updates- she comes out to ride most days anyway. GLS- he is worked, and worked hard. He's ridden by a pony clubber, and is schooled 3 times a week and hacked by his owner.

I'll buy a chain leadrope tomorrow and use it on him. Classicsporthorses, I like the idea of backing him into his stable. I don't have an aisle on this block (Outdoor stables rather than in a barn.) but I will back him around the yard.

[gabz]

Yes... backing up is a wonderful thing... horses do NOT like to back up... and when you are the one making them do it!! they "get" it.

Be sure that the owner backs him up EVERYTIME before she leads him forward too... and grunts at him with a scowling face.... (make her practice with you. : ) :mad: that one whould work.

I, too, believe in the stop at the door/gate before leaving the stall / barn / paddock... EVERYTIME even 5 years from now.

I knew a horse woman who had a stallion and when he misbehaved (nothing serious... no rearing or pawing or anything) she backed him up. One day, as she was dismounting, he took a step.. perhaps to re-balance himself, perhaps to hurry back to his stall - it was only 1 step ... but the instant she was standing on the ground and before she could even gather up the reins to back him up... he was backing up !!!! too funny... we thought he was going to back up faster than she was... she too was laughing at him.

[yellowbritches]

I do not hesitate to stick a chain over a nose if someone's being unruly (I threatened both my grey boys with chains tonight as they tried to tow me back to the barn together).

We recently got a mare in who I was warned could be very rude, especially at the gate. I was slightly disgruntled that it had never really been dealt with up to that point, but knowing her history (basically in barns that either ran them in or the person with the most knowledge rarely actually handled the horses), I figured it was to be expected. She and I had a couple of minor go rounds early on, but I thought she and I had each other figured out. I was WRONG. I turned one of her pasture mates out one day, and this mare had decided she was ready to come in, NOW. She made a move to barge through the gate...when I swung the halter and rope at her (standard practice in my book for an unruly horse in the field), she just came faster and harder and quite literally mowed me down going straight over the top of me. I managed to not get too seriously hurt, but she did royally piss me off. I caught her, and proceed to spend about 30 minutes with her, putting the fear of God into her if she came any where near me or the gate unless asked. It was rough, and not my cup of tea for dealing with issues, but once a horse shows they could care less about the human in front of them, I make them think I could care less about them. To this day, she has yet to crowd the gate, and if she starts to get a little too close for comfort, I can swing a rope gently toward her and she backs off, as she should.

Teach this guy what his boundaries are and be firm and consistent about it. I am all about gentle, quiet handling, but when I have to worry about my safety or another human's safety I will do what is needed to get my point across. My horses are happy, sweet, and respectful, and I think it is because they understand who the boss is...me.

[denovo]

I HATE a pushy horse, it's the one thing I do not put up with. We've had several boarders come with bad ground manners, most are significantly better in no time!

My basic theory is to make their life difficult when they are being rude. (I'm talking in the context of really pushy ones, not your average eagerness to go out that is easily prevented). Most of the time that means backing up as hard and as far as they need. sometimes you have to experiment to find the exact discipline that works for that specific horse.

I also don't allow a horse to continue going where they were going if they are pushy. for instance, if they push through me leaving the stall, they go back in teh stall, and we try again. They do NOT go out the the paddock/whatever until they leave the stall politely. I've had this take 20 minutes sometimes!

[MassageLady]

I worked with my horse like that-with a chain and a dressage whip. He was actually a nice boy...just wanted to be a lap horse-all 16.2hh of him!:eek: anyway, the girl that put him out in the mornings told me that he crashed thru his stall guard, so I worked with him-one day was all it took. We'd walk about 6 steps, then back up, and if he didn't do it immediately-the whip went across his chest...along with the chain. He figured it out pretty fast too! Didn't take but a few times, worked with him for about a half hour, making sure he 'got it'. I left the whip near his stall door...all she had to do was pick it up-point it at him and say 'back up'...he responded with 'no problemo':lol:

[CodeBon]

I'd agree with everyone! I loathe a horse with poor ground manners. For some reason, I can forgive problems under saddle, or chalk them up to unclear signals or something, but ground manners are different. If you watch horses interact with each other, there is either instant obedience to subtle signals (ears pinned, head waving, etc.) or there is a challenge followed by the more dominant horse trying to kill the other.

I try to follow the same approach ... if the horse won't acknowledge or obey subtle signals, I try and kill him (figuratively), and make a HUGE issue out of it. There is no spectrum of asking, i.e. ask subtly, then ask a bit more firmly, then ask a bit more firmly, then demand, then insist, then battle. I go from subtle straight to open warfare, just because it is so easy for them to push the boundaries, and I have enough chances to get hurt when the horse isn't TRYING!

[kelser01]

Yes... backing up is a wonderful thing... horses do NOT like to back up... and when you are the one making them do it!! they "get" it.


My new OTTB thinks the wash stall is SCARY, and the only way I can get him into it is to back up :) Bit off topic, but funny.

He doesn't have the worst manners but he and I have had a few conversations. Hes 17'2 and been allowed to push/drag people around a bit. I think that hes been kicked by humans a time or two, as he get nervous if I take my time putting a foot in the stirrup(mounting block is scary too). If I just do it, and get on he wont move a muscle. He responds well to voice. I can make his eyes roll around if I just raise my voice and face him he starts backing up on his own.

Good luck!

[AnotherRound]

You're going to need to have a come to jesus meeting with him. Sounds like you're not ready to do that.

[gabz]

My new OTTB thinks the wash stall is SCARY, and the only way I can get him into it is to back up :) Bit off topic, but funny.



Oh yeah.. . been there too...

[iownapaint]

Honestly, YELL.
I get so much more of a response when I yell, wave my arms, and make a general ruckus. It works better than trying to overpower them. Even if he's little, he's still a lot bigger than you, and it sounds like he knows it. Yelling and arm waving usually gets them to take a big step back and definitely gets their attention.

[Chief2]

Tell the horse's owner of the problem. If she can't come in to work on the horse, offer to put him into training for 15-30 days to solve the problem, charging her the regular training rate, and continue charging her for it until this is resolved. This alone may motivate her to learn to handle this guy. She has to learn how to handle him sometime. It may as well be now. Is he in a regular under-saddle exercise program?

As an owner, I would rather be the one solving this problem with my own horse, than trust others in their knowledge of handling chains and whips. Someone who really isn't well-versed in this can make the whole thing a lot worse than it already is. Then again, we handle ours at least twice daily right around the calendar, and don't have to resort to whips and chains. There are plenty of good ground exercises out there that will get this resolved.

[amdfarm]

Even when we are distributing hay in the pastures they all know, and the new ones learn quickly that they are to stand back and quietly as we cut open the bales and disburse them around. I have 30+ horses here and even the babies know to wait.

Exactly! Mine know that I am NOT a walking hay feeder and that they don't need to be right on my heels or mugging me until I am done w/ what I'm doing. God love them, but there is a time and place for it and haying is not one of them unless I'm finished. Of course by that time they're all happily eating and could care less about me. :) Thank God for round bales now. They can mug the truck and wagon all they want, I don't care, as long as they stay out of the way while it's moving.

On the backing and stalls... reminds me of when I was helping a gal and showing APHA way back when. Whenever her horses went in or out of their stalls, they were backed. She said it was a sign of respect and boy did they ever know the routine and they were young, also. A 2yo filly and 3yo gelding.

gabz... Your friend's stallion story reminded me of what my gelding used to do when I attempted to teach him something for a behavior that drives me CRAZY! When trail riding... if we have to stop for any reason... open a gate or what have you, he gets so antsy and refuses to stand still. The kicker, he will NOT back up more than one step u/s, so backing him as punishment was out, therefore I thought circles, I'll just spin him until he gets sick of it and decides that standing isn't so bad. After so many of those I was getting dizzy myself, even both directions on uneven terrain in most cases, and stopping to giving him opportunities to stand like he's supposed to. Okay, a whole weekend of trail riding I bet we did the whole spin to stand thing about a half dozen or more times to try and get my point acrossed. By the end of the weekend I didn't have to do as many to get him to stand reasonably quiet to wait w/out getting off to hold him which he'll stand rock solid for. Next time we went trail riding and we make a stop, I find that I've created a self spinning horse now. Oh joy! Fast forward probably 7 years now and he still won't stand, but thankfully has stopped spinning every time we stop... he's just head tossing jiggy. After 16 years I guess I should be used to it. Man he makes me laugh. :) Won't back and won't stand still and it took most of those years to get him to stand still while I mounted! What more could you ask for in a horse! God love him!! :D

Good luck w/ the cob! I hate a pushy horse, too!

[goeslikestink]

Thanks everyone- all of mine will move back when you go into the stable.

Yep, I'll be giving the owner updates- she comes out to ride most days anyway. GLS- he is worked, and worked hard. He's ridden by a pony clubber, and is schooled 3 times a week and hacked by his owner.

I'll buy a chain leadrope tomorrow and use it on him. Classicsporthorses, I like the idea of backing him into his stable. I don't have an aisle on this block (Outdoor stables rather than in a barn.) but I will back him around the yard.

dont-- chain him over the nose-- this horse already knows his own strenght and thats not the way to outsmart a welsh whos smart-- you need to be direct and assertive and tell him and mean it dont give treats as a reward-- but use horse mind to helpyou help him so you put it in his mind its a good idea to xyz--

1st thing see how much food hes getting in apportion to work these ponies live on air
they dont need grain they are natives -- hay yes and ab lib hay but not grian in most cases grian goes to there head making them bloushy-- so stop all grian for 2weeks till it comes out of his system-- grian takes only a day or so to enter the sytem but to come out takes anything up to 2/3 weeks if this horse is on good grass and feed up like as lots of grian thats your problem as to why hes no manners- its like drinking whiskey none stop does his brain in
blows his mind
so stop the grian-- then when saner horse to handle can trial and error with feestuffs adding a little at a time till you can handle him if goes backwards and behaves the same then you know its to much food so reduce it and so on
and no high engery feedstuff like sugar beat -- this type needs low cool mix and chaff and thats it nothing more
hes a working native horse --- so hay only for now and then see how he behaves as i bet its to do with to much grub

[kookicat]

Hi

He only gets hay and a feed balancer- no hard feed at all. I very rarely feed treats, and have never given this horse any treats. :)

He does have a lot more respect for the handler with the chain over his nose. He's improved 80% just by using it- at the weekend (when owner can spend the full day) we're going to have a good groundwork session and teach her how to handle him too.

[Foxtrot's]

The trouble with all that NH is we have all become too NICE. If we were half as stern as their mammas were, we'd have polite youngsters. A nose chain can be tough, but then who is tougher?
Eventually just the rattle and he'll pay attention. OMG, now I sound like a brute ....

[goeslikestink]

why is he on a feed balancer? thats for making the most out feeds you give horses really shouldnt be given to the horse on its own

all he needs is hay hes a native-- if you have grass he dont need nothing other than hay

i have welshes -- when hes learnt ot respect you since you use the chain then take it off if he trys it on tehn use to remind him but dont use it continous these ponis are smarter than you think

[in_the_zone]

I am horrified by the responses on this thread and the willingness of a barn owner to grab a chain and whip and impart training on a boarder's horse.

First of all, this horse's training is not your responsibility. If he is unsafe to handle, tell your boarder that you do not feel comfortable leading him to and from the pasture. Offer field board or suggest a professional trainer. Secondly, showing this horse who's boss is not worth risking your own safety. Your value as a barn owner is far more valuable than the free training you are imparting upon this horse and owner.

Now let's talk about the horse. He's 12 y/o. He's probably done this for a long time. At this point, he's going to need retraining. This differs from training because he's already learned the wrong thing and it's not his fault. A chain shank and a whip is not going to fix this. You know what's worse than a rude, bargey horse? A horse that gets abused for being rude and bargey and learns to fear people/barns/stalls/tack/buckets/whips/etc. Now that's a dangerous horse. This one's just confused and lacking proper direction.

Sorry for the lack of sugar-coating. That's just how it is. Most sincerely.

[Foxtrot's]

NOBODY suggested abusing the horse.

[in_the_zone]

What if you went to work where you've worked for 12 years and suddenly someone started clubbing you over the head at the entrance door every day? Wouldn't you be hesitant to continue going in and at least trying to duck out of harms way? Horse's learn very, very well, and this one seems awful smart.

There are better ways than intimidating your horse. Respect should not be confused with fear. This so-called training is a bandaid and is poor horsemanship all around. This horse isn't even committing any cardinal sins like rearing, kicking, biting, or striking.

Worst of all, some of you are dressage people. You are taught to be soft, subtle, and build a partnership with your horse. What's the difference between shanking a horse, whipping it across the chest and running it backwards from jerking it in the mouth or using a harsh bit? You should respect your horse on the ground like you would under saddle.

For the record, a momma horse doesn't grab a horse by the face and hurt it over and over and not let go. They give a verbal warning, then they threaten, then they give 'em a good swift kick. Usually that results in them running away from the herd, which is where they want to be. So the next time that horse approaches he does so with more respect so he will be accepted. The closest thing I can think of to the above described "training method" to nature is a stallion grabbing another horse by the neck, and shaking it with the intent to kill.

I think I'm going to stick to my guns on this one. I'm sure you will stick to yours too (not addressing anyone in particular). That's Ok. We all have our own opinions; I just don't have to agree. And no, I'm not a Parelli-ite.

[yellowbritches]

If I waited for my clients to discipline their horses, I'd have a barn full of unruly horses...I don't get paid enough to take my life in my hands dealing with naughty and/or dangerous horses...if I need to stick a chain on a horse's nose to teach it some manners, then I'm going to. Most horse owners who board their horses don't understand how spoiled they make their horses and how unruly they can be for the people who handle them most of the time. I feed them 3 times a day, bring them in and out, change their rugs, treat their wounds...their owners usually come out and spend a couple of hours riding and fussing with them...who do you think is going to be the one most likely to get hurt?

I hardly abuse my horses...in fact, because I lay down the law early with them, I can lead most with just a finger on their halters and deal with most of them ground tied. They are respectful and mannerly and understand the rules...but you have to teach them the rules! Sometimes, the stubborn or spoiled ones need a little reform school to get with the program.

[kookicat]

why is he on a feed balancer? thats for making the most out feeds you give horses really shouldnt be given to the horse on its own

all he needs is hay hes a native-- if you have grass he dont need nothing other than hay

i have welshes -- when hes learnt ot respect you since you use the chain then take it off if he trys it on tehn use to remind him but dont use it continous these ponis are smarter than you think

He's (and so are the rest of them) on a feed balancer because our grass/hay is deficent in a few things.

Yup, that's the idea- use the chain so he gets the idea then take if off. I don't like using it but I hate being run over by him more.

[kookicat]

I am horrified by the responses on this thread and the willingness of a barn owner to grab a chain and whip and impart training on a boarder's horse.

First of all, this horse's training is not your responsibility. If he is unsafe to handle, tell your boarder that you do not feel comfortable leading him to and from the pasture. Offer field board or suggest a professional trainer. Secondly, showing this horse who's boss is not worth risking your own safety. Your value as a barn owner is far more valuable than the free training you are imparting upon this horse and owner.

Now let's talk about the horse. He's 12 y/o. He's probably done this for a long time. At this point, he's going to need retraining. This differs from training because he's already learned the wrong thing and it's not his fault. A chain shank and a whip is not going to fix this. You know what's worse than a rude, bargey horse? A horse that gets abused for being rude and bargey and learns to fear people/barns/stalls/tack/buckets/whips/etc. Now that's a dangerous horse. This one's just confused and lacking proper direction.

Sorry for the lack of sugar-coating. That's just how it is. Most sincerely.

What if you went to work where you've worked for 12 years and suddenly someone started clubbing you over the head at the entrance door every day? Wouldn't you be hesitant to continue going in and at least trying to duck out of harms way? Horse's learn very, very well, and this one seems awful smart.

There are better ways than intimidating your horse. Respect should not be confused with fear. This so-called training is a bandaid and is poor horsemanship all around. This horse isn't even committing any cardinal sins like rearing, kicking, biting, or striking.

Worst of all, some of you are dressage people. You are taught to be soft, subtle, and build a partnership with your horse. What's the difference between shanking a horse, whipping it across the chest and running it backwards from jerking it in the mouth or using a harsh bit? You should respect your horse on the ground like you would under saddle.

For the record, a momma horse doesn't grab a horse by the face and hurt it over and over and not let go. They give a verbal warning, then they threaten, then they give 'em a good swift kick. Usually that results in them running away from the herd, which is where they want to be. So the next time that horse approaches he does so with more respect so he will be accepted. The closest thing I can think of to the above described "training method" to nature is a stallion grabbing another horse by the neck, and shaking it with the intent to kill.

I think I'm going to stick to my guns on this one. I'm sure you will stick to yours too (not addressing anyone in particular). That's Ok. We all have our own opinions; I just don't have to agree. And no, I'm not a Parelli-ite.

Hi

Thank you for your input. I'm not sure I agree with you- I've tried basic groundwork with this horse and it hasn't worked. He has zero respect for me, or his owner. I'd rather not get run over by him.

Ted's owner is a novice lady- I bet she weighs nine stone dripping wet. She wants to teach him- but at the moment she dosen't know how. I handle him 3/4 times a day and I need those manners to be there.

I'd like to know what you'd do with him rather than use a chain- like I said, he dosen't respond to basic groundwork. He's not scared by the chain- I had my OH test it on my wrist first and I didn't find it painful- it got my attention, and that's the aim with him. I'm not going in there yanking at his face every second. The lead is loose except for when I need it. Then he gets a pop, it gets him to focus on me and we can both be safe. I'm sorry, but for me barging is a cardinal sin. I really don't want to spend weeks in hospital because he's jammed me against the door on his way past.

[goeslikestink]

a feed balancer- is to make the most of feed given - to go to place inside the body or body function to make the most of the feed -

ie mix feed, or weight gain, feed balancers like equi libra or blue chip
use the feedstuff to enhance the body with the feeds given a its only a measured cup full
to be added to feedstuffs its not meant to be used on its own

[kookicat]

a feed balancer- is to make the most of feed given - to go to place inside the body or body function to make the most of the feed -

ie mix feed, or weight gain, feed balancers like equi libra or blue chip
use the feedstuff to enhance the body with the feeds given a its only a measured cup full
to be added to feedstuffs its not meant to be used on its own

Topspec is fine to feed on it's own and it meets my needs.

http://www.topspec.com/TopSpec05/howtofeed_feedbal.htm

It's also non-heating, so I don't think it's that making him bargey.

[FLIPPED HER HALO]

My new guy is a 16.2h TB. So far I hate him.

His prior owner said he's "mouthy" and has a "show horse attitude." Um, no. He's a bully and disrespectful of people! She had him since he was 3 and obviously never showed him who is boss. He's been getting some "come to Jesus" meetings - built him a round pen and put his butt to work and then he figures out that I am alpha. Unfortunately, we've had nonstop rain and he's been stuck in his stall and paddock and is a pistol and we're back to square one. He needs work DAILY.

I took him out Wednesday to go to pasture with my other gelding and the MINUTE we were out the gate of his paddock he was on his hind legs dragging me sideways. I yanked him back over to his stall wall and we started again. So then he put his nose down and bolted while bucking out at me. I finally had to just let go. I'm 125lbs and he's 1200 and I don't care to get a foot in the face. I caught him again and he flung me around like a rag doll. He took off and at that point I literally didn't care if he found himself in the road. He galloped around the property until he realized nobody else was with him and came back. My body is so sore, my neck jacked up etc. NEVER was I told he was this big of an a**. I can see why she couldn't sell him, even if he is professionally trained and awesome in the show ring.

A friend said she's seen him TOTALLY ignore stud chains and blow thru them at shows. She suggested a mannering/stud halter so I just ordered that one today. She said he's "worth it" if I can get the manners in his as he's so well trained. Bu I'm about ready to just give him back to his prior owner and be done with it. I've had him for almost 2 months now and I don't like him.

[Sithly]

If I waited for my clients to discipline their horses, I'd have a barn full of unruly horses...I don't get paid enough to take my life in my hands dealing with naughty and/or dangerous horses...if I need to stick a chain on a horse's nose to teach it some manners, then I'm going to. Most horse owners who board their horses don't understand how spoiled they make their horses and how unruly they can be for the people who handle them most of the time. I feed them 3 times a day, bring them in and out, change their rugs, treat their wounds...their owners usually come out and spend a couple of hours riding and fussing with them...who do you think is going to be the one most likely to get hurt?

I hardly abuse my horses...in fact, because I lay down the law early with them, I can lead most with just a finger on their halters and deal with most of them ground tied. They are respectful and mannerly and understand the rules...but you have to teach them the rules! Sometimes, the stubborn or spoiled ones need a little reform school to get with the program.

AMEN to that. I couldn't agree more.

In addition, most of our boarders deal with their horses at "calm" times of the day. They have NO IDEA what Dobbin acts like at feeding time when the herd's riled up and everyone's eager to come in.

This horse isn't even committing any cardinal sins like rearing, kicking, biting, or striking.

Not respecting your space is absolutely, positively a cardinal sin. The complete lack of respect shown when a horse gets in your space tends to be the root cause of all the other cardinal sins. Don't wait for the behavior to escalate -- correct it immediately.

[goeslikestink]

Topspec is fine to feed on it's own and it meets my needs.

http://www.topspec.com/TopSpec05/howtofeed_feedbal.htm



It's also non-heating, so I don't think it's that making him bargey.


where are you in england kooky

what he like in a stable does he lunge over the door etc

lets try some illusions and see if that helps you

1st - try putting abar up and over the door nose height
this does a few things- move every thing to the front of the stable--
we are giong to play smart on this guy - ok so illussion 1

by placeing a bar above the door at nose height
a-- the horse automatically see this as big- door
b--- doesnt lunge over to nip or bite as he thinks he cant
c-- when you take the bar out the pony should take a step back when you open the door
as he does this you say - back- as the bar as comminng out slides out so he thinks you gonna knock him out as it comes out so takes a step backwards
you only need a small wooden bar with small wooden slots to go into - or a metal handle to fit into which can be brought in any builders merchants
- if he dont try illusion 2
d- by putting feed hay water at the front and horse has moved back which he should do
automacally - and you say back and stand do what ever ie fill empty and carry on horse should interfere in your space-
and you have shown him you alpha girly

the bar on the door-- tell the horse you mean bisness but you havent done anything to change your rountine or his -

illiusion 2

your freind is your broom in your tool kit

so now the horse is still a bit bargy -- and doesnt take a step back when opening the door
of illusion 1

so-- a-- we go to the door with our friend mr broom - gotta lvoe that guy works all day for nothing- so we tip him upside down so handle end to the floor
as we go to the door-- we tap the floor -- horse should back automactically when we enter and we again say back
b-- horse doesnt go back when we enter and tap the floor
so we do c--- we tap say back and open the door ( if you small enough to go under the bar nose height then do if not take it out each time) then move the hand with the broom outways so we have an outstretch arm-- then tap the floor with the broom and ask again to go back- as in get back . back, or go back, use your tones of voice and mean the command
if that dont work - both arms out stetched and ask then he will

you should be able to tap the floor with the broom and place the horse in any part of the stable and asked him to stand

- what we are doing here is to create an illusion we are bigger than him -- in his mind
asthis boy is smart -- and testing the boundaries - at no time have you hit the horse
all youve done is to create an illusion you a re bigger than him
once he accepts that you mean bisness and are domimnant -- in this area along will follow thorugh and the horse will be a puppy- and wont have to put anything on his nose
as you have set the course in his mind you are alpha
so he will follow you

your biggest asset and aid is your voice , your other assets and tools are what you have already on your yard but its how you use them to be effective

horse that are bargy know there own strenght and like i said he smart this type will use there weight against you and to be honest it dont matter what you stuff on his nose
eventually he work it out and advade you -- you think you can hold on to a hrose who knows how to use his weight as this is 12yrs old horse and has gotten away with using his weighta already for a long time-- he only has to turn his head and if he wanted to go you wont hold him- he dont have to go upwards at all -- he can just take his chest and front and power front behind and turn his head thses ponies are smarter than horses as they are more pony than horse in there mind

so you have to out smart his mind to win him over
my illusion will take about 2 times -- and thats it - it tap the broom one and nose height
one
why becuase you are putting him in place in his space xx

[horsegirl520]

Use a chain shank, always carry a bat or whip, and no hand fed treats. Rude horses = dangerous. Don't bother smacking him with your hand, you'll just hurt your hand ;) or make him headshy. Might sound mean, but don't be afraid to use your "weapons" until he respects you. If he barges over you, shank on him until he backs up and thinks "oops... probably shouldn't have done that." Short, quick jerks produce the best effect. Carry the bat with the smacker side up and tap him on the nose if he walks into you. Teach him "your space" vs. "his space." Another thing, never turn the horse around you -- you always want to turn the horse away from you, whenever possible. Pulling him towards you says: "Come into my space!" which is exactly what you don't want.

Spend time practicing just leading him... foward, back, turning, etc. Make sure he moves when you tell him to and where you tell him to, and sharply correct him until he gets it. I think it's the owner's job to teach the horse these things, but if the owner isn't willing to do it and he's disrespecting you, then go for it, but make sure his owner is alright with it first.

This is what I've learned from dealing with rude youngsters and stallions.

[goeslikestink]

you dont need anose shank or a bat or a whip
you can buy if still misbehaves a pressure halter so he wehn he pull away he pulling against himself
richard maxwell does one which is highly effective and you can buy it in tack shop or over the internet

the pony when might run away from you so let him, connect it to a lunge line give him the space trun if he so wishes, then just use the lunge line in the normal way
he will stop and then think he might try to do it a couple of times but soon realises he cant get away from you, then draw him close and lead him from the schoulder
it will work and does work
as i said he pulling against himself and not against you and if you have a box handy you can load him with easement up and down the ramp

[Foxtrot's]

Bats, chains, pressure halters, brooms, boards, buckets, lariats, carrot sticks ... all tools in a toolbox. It is how they are used that matters. Richard Maxwell follows a lot of the NH principles, plus, of course, some of his own brand (don't they all) and he did a course with John Lyons. John Lyons himself says, that if a horse is dangerous, bites, kicks, or can hurt you, it is OK to KILL him - but the instant he misbehaves and only for 3 seconds. My own good friend who learned from Tom Dorrance says he recommends a chain shank to his clients who are often small, lightweight women. He has a bummed shoulder from rank horses. Not severe unless the horse insists; it is the release the instant the horse even thinks of becoming compliant - and then he can be lead with just the weight of the lead, or even without it.
...Damn, I told myself I was going to keep out of this, but can't resist. For myself, I don't fix difficult horses, but sometimes people have to take one on. Lightness and softness, by the way, is not just
for dressage riders - all horse people strive for that.

[goeslikestink]

Bats, chains, pressure halters, brooms, boards, buckets, lariats, carrot sticks ... all tools in a toolbox. It is how they are used that matters. Richard Maxwell follows a lot of the NH principles, plus, of course, some of his own brand (don't they all) and he did a course with John Lyons. John Lyons himself says, that if a horse is dangerous, bites, kicks, or can hurt you, it is OK to KILL him - but the instant he misbehaves and only for 3 seconds. My own good friend who learned from Tom Dorrance says he recommends a chain shank to his clients who are often small, lightweight women. He has a bummed shoulder from rank horses. Not severe unless the horse insists; it is the release the instant the horse even thinks of becoming compliant - and then he can be lead with just the weight of the lead, or even without it.
...Damn, I told myself I was going to keep out of this, but can't resist. For myself, I don't fix difficult horses, but sometimes people have to take one on. Lightness and softness, by the way, is not just
for dressage riders - all horse people strive for that.

haha to true, but i do fix horses often haha, i always try to use the horse by that i mean use him against him - if you use there mind and put it into there mind its a good idea then it works in all my years of breaking, schooling and rehabing horses from all walks of life and abuse both mentally and pysically i can honestly say its very rare i use a whip, -a bat dunno what one of them is, or a chain over the nose, i might use a lead rope over the nose from time to time but even thats rare, i do use when breaking two schooling whips but not to hurt the horse to tickle the horse into forwards movement and to keep striaght and thats done by opening up my thumbs on the reins-- other than that hardly unlikely, the rest is done on illusions of the horses mind making myself look bigger than he is,, and using my voice and tones of voice, not saying i have smacked a horse for a short sharp shock when needed but agian its rare - i dont like bargy horses and normally make that clear from day one as and when i get them as i to am little and thats done by getting hold of him and leading him
in and being firm on the lead rein-holding him under the chin and giving a hard yank and putting it into his mind as soon as i get hold of him iam boss and i wont put up with any nosense-- it starts as so as you take hold of the head collar-- getting him out of the box or out of a horsebox. trailer or field,or off the owner you grab hold and yank his heada couple time beofre he has the thought to go xyz-- inother words antispating his moves so he doesnt antispate yours -- do it be fore he thinks to do it...

[Foxtrot's]

I don't think anyone would argue with you there - on a BB if someone mentions a whip someone else will surely assume the horse is going to get a whippin'. More like a progression, from a tap to a smack. A rope over the nose, a chain, sometimes - all in how it is used. Jack le Goff said never go to war without a gun - (he meant it re x-coutry) but here you take the tools with you so you can be sure to get your point across. Is a lariat any different, can be used for all sorts of things. Anticipating the behaviour and your timing of the aid/correctioin are what the horse understands. The OP's situation is the horse is l2 years old - he therefore knows he's stepping over his boundaries. He needs to come to attention with a very definite set of rules. No, I don't fix rank horses, but am very critical and observant of those who do.

[spirithorse22]

The trouble with all that NH is we have all become too NICE. If we were half as stern as their mammas were, we'd have polite youngsters. A nose chain can be tough, but then who is tougher?
Eventually just the rattle and he'll pay attention. OMG, now I sound like a brute ....

N, you're right. I bought my guy and the vet really disliked him (he tossed her around like a ragdoll during the PPE) and from that day onward, its been very black and white for him. Be respectful or you're going to see quite an explosion. BUT then it must be 'okay, that's done, let's move on' and NO grudges or nastiness afterward. Reward immediately for 'proper' behavior.

I saw someone riding the other day whose horse misbehaved a little under tack-she made an ugly sound, but when he quit it, she didn't release her death grip on the reins, ask him for something else and praise him, or etc. to show the difference. People seem to think horses can read their minds-doesn't work like that. She proceeded to complain the whole rest of the ride, and never once gave the horse a pat even though he went to work/did his job. :no: I really hated to see that and think it definitely contributed to his work ethic/attitude.

Out in a herd, the heirarchy is black/white. If you think you can do a better job, you challenge and either win or are promptly ass kicked back to last week...and then there aren't drama fests or grudges.

I like the post that talks about a horse be quite sensitive-she only has to lift her voice to get the horse to look back like, yes ma'am? That's how it should be...clear and consistent, praise=good, objective discipline=that is not acceptable, shouldn't do it again

My guy KNOWS when the chain is on. He acts like the loud mouth kid whose parents have just walked in the room-shuts up and sits down. :lol:

[spirithorse22]

One other thing....:D;) I find this topic quite interesting, so to be a novella poster.


I was just reading another post about how chain/whip/etc. sounds abusive. I can't stand to see a horse hit w/ a whip, in the mouth, kicked in the belly, ANY of that stuff. I really hate it. And I've seen people w/ a whip, or a chain, or other aid and turn it into an object of terror and abuse. I absolutely break into a cold sweat when I see something like that happening to a horse. Its terrible and shouldn't ever happen to a horse-or human. But I really agree with the concept of 'be as hard and never harder than another horse'. I think that really sets a limit on the kind of action a person should take, and it should always be as objective as the way it plays out in a field.

My coaches always said, give the horse the benefit of the doubt, and always build up to something, that way when you go to do something and the horse refused you know you've done your homework, put in the time/effort to really ease the horse into something, and know that it is now a concious decision on the horse's part to disagree. What's unfortuante is the number of people who point their horses at banks (as an example) without having done their homework, and when the horse stops (i don't blame them)-they light into them with their whip. How is that fair? :no:

[hundredacres]

Yes... backing up is a wonderful thing... horses do NOT like to back up... and when you are the one making them do it!! they "get" it.

Be sure that the owner backs him up EVERYTIME before she leads him forward too... and grunts at him with a scowling face.... (make her practice with you. : ) :mad: that one whould work.

I, too, believe in the stop at the door/gate before leaving the stall / barn / paddock... EVERYTIME even 5 years from now.

I knew a horse woman who had a stallion and when he misbehaved (nothing serious... no rearing or pawing or anything) she backed him up. One day, as she was dismounting, he took a step.. perhaps to re-balance himself, perhaps to hurry back to his stall - it was only 1 step ... but the instant she was standing on the ground and before she could even gather up the reins to back him up... he was backing up !!!! too funny... we thought he was going to back up faster than she was... she too was laughing at him.

I went through this with a Percheron and a 2 ottbs. One of the ottb's took some time, while the other took literally 5 minutes to let him know where he stands around here (he's a puppy dog now). I have NO tolerance for a pushy horse anymore. Last summer I was in a field looking at a horse and a stud colt came running up on me and got uncomfotably close and without thought I smacked him - the owner had a fit. She was absolutely new to horses and had no idea that he needed to be gelded and handled differently. I CRINGE to think of what hell is going on at that place now.

Anyway - I learned from my trainer (who busted me out of my doormat phase a couple of years ago) that it starts in the stall. You walk in - they MOVE.

I learned to do this with a sharp hand in the face - not contact - just a 'get back' gesture and close enough to the eeye to make them flinch and move away. Body posture is everything - you don't ever move back into your position after you've made them move back - in fact a step nearer is even better - Reinforce it's YOUR decision and you will make the call. When the horse has it's head down and is maintaining a passive posture, you move out. Otherwise, any gesture toward you on his part is met with your hand(s) back in his face - if he doesn't respect that no-contact gesture than he gets a real slap. Placement is irreleavnt. Intention is everything (the horse knows what your intention was if your body posture was correct - just like they know when a horse kicks at them that they MEANT to kick them). It's fast and one time only - no outbursts of emotion (maybe an "Ah-ah!"). The horse moves away - good boy. Your hand is down but you stand your ground. The horse comes near again, you are back at him again, and assert yourself squarely. Continue until the horse understands that he has no business coming toward you when you enter that stall. He should move to the other side and have an absolutely passive, calm posture.



Once you establish that place in his stall, it seems to come more naturally outside.

[Tamara in TN]

One other thing....:D;) I find this topic quite interesting, so to be a novella poster.


I was just reading another post about how chain/whip/etc. sounds abusive. I can't stand to see a horse hit w/ a whip, in the mouth, kicked in the belly, ANY of that stuff. I really hate it. . How is that fair? :no:

well....let one horse intentionally clobber you one good time and you may see things differently...there is very small way that you can really "hurt" a horse with a riding whip (cue all the people who have see otherwise and think I am terrible :))

the fact is a 2x4 swung as hard as you could would be hard pressed to equal one good kick from another horse...another fact is if a horse needs clobbering for disrespect very few people that I know would know how to do it fairly...they'd under-do or they'd over -do but few would just do it and be done and go on with things...they have not handled enough animals to know where the line is drawn...and how deeply you must draw it...and with what you must draw it with....;)

your boot to his belly is generally a good way to just annoy one...and show off for people that know less than you do...

Tamara in TN

[Foxtrot's]

A boot in the belly is very unhorsemanlike! It would sure show you off to be a greenhorn, unbalanced on one leg like that and one small step away from his back end. I've seen it done a lot, and it is ineffective. Oh my. :(

[hundredacres]

...another fact is if a horse needs clobbering for disrespect very few people that I know would know how to do it fairly...they'd under-do or they'd over -do but few would just do it and be done and go one with things...they have not handled enough animals to know where the line is drawn...and how deeply you must draw it...and with what you must draw it with....;)



Tamara in TN

You are so right. I used to let my horses run all over me until meeting Melissa.Hare.Jones (thats her name and username here). She taught me about being fair. It's an art - I was ashamed at first that I didn't understand it - but I realized that it does'nt come naturally to most people because we don't communicate like horses. It was like a lightbulb for me though and has changed EVERYTHING for me and my relationship with my horses. I am consistent with my expectations now - and consistency is what they understand. Horse Rules don't fluctuate like Human Rules do. They don't quite get it when we aren't clear, consistent and fair.
So it's like this - you bite/push/whatever me, I smack you hard and we continue as we were. It takes practice and focus. I am certain that some peoples brains aren't wired for it - they cant let go, they can't focus, they don't play fair ever - especially with a horse that can't talk back. It's a lesson that can be taught, but I just doubt that some people can learn it.

[Sithly]

A boot in the belly is very unhorsemanlike! It would sure show you off to be a greenhorn, unbalanced on one leg like that and one small step away from his back end. I've seen it done a lot, and it is ineffective. Oh my. :(

No way. You're SUPPOSED to give your horse a boot to the belly before you cinch him. Makes it much easier to get him broke in the face.





;)

[Foxtrot's]

Oh, I see - of course. Silly me.

[spirithorse22]

Tamara, not to be rude or be an ass, but did you rest the rest of the post? There was a big BUT after that paragraph you quoted. Also, read the previous post-that explained how I dealt with my guy's disrespect.

I have been run over-just the other day as a matter of fact, and it burns me up. I agreed with a previous poster as well that when the horse stops caring about harming you, you reciprocate the sentiment. ;)


Plus-the stuff I put in bold (your words in the below quote) pretty much equal what I said in the first post. React big, act objectively, then LET IT GO, no more drama.

Just read my whole posts. :sigh:


well....let one horse intentionally clobber you one good time and you may see things differently...there is very small way that you can really "hurt" a horse with a riding whip (cue all the people who have see otherwise and think I am terrible :))

the fact is a 2x4 swung as hard as you could would be hard pressed to equal one good kick from another horse...another fact is if a horse needs clobbering for disrespect very few people that I know would know how to do it fairly...they'd under-do or they'd over -do but few would just do it and be done and go on with things...they have not handled enough animals to know where the line is drawn...and how deeply you must draw it...and with what you must draw it with....;)

your boot to his belly is generally a good way to just annoy one...and show off for people that know less than you do...

Tamara in TN

[Foxtrot's]

Actually, it seems we are preaching to the choir. Sometimes on a BB we read a bit too quickly and we reply a bit carelessly and something gets read into the post that was not meant to be there in the first place. I think we are mostly all agreed that fair and instant correction be meted out, and then a praise when the correction is made. And the correction has to be severe enough, but not more severe than necessary. I'm all for being gentle and it can be so if undesirable actions are nipped in the bud.

This whole topic has made me re-assess every move I make in the barn and check on my safeteys. It is easy to become a little lax when the day to day routines are so easy with your own crew. My new resolution: not to get between the wall and the horse when fixing blankets. And I shall re-emphasize the wait before exiting the stall, barn, trailer, arena, gate.

[Natrlhorse]

I haven't really been following this but there seems to be a lot of negativity towards poorly mannered horses in this thread, the same kind of negativity that creates those poorly mannered horses in the first place.
If a horse is raised in conflict with people, he expect every interaction to involve conflict, you have to break that cycle, show him there is an easier way to get along.
Something that nobody has mentioned is that often this downward spiral of pushy behavior starts with handfed treats. I would say first before anything else make sure this horse is not getting any handouts from anybody. Think about that cycle, cookie is offered, horse moves into person to get cookie, horse is instantly rewarded for moving into person, maybe horse takes a chance and starts moving into people where there is not a cookie (in hopes that there might be another cookie) and horse gets pushed, or horse gets smacked. See the cycle here, good boy, cookie, hey back off, smack, aww its ok, cookie...and so on until the horse is thoroughly confused. So break that cycle and give the boy some consistent groundwork where he is rewarded for doing his job and staying in his own space. Set it up so he can succeed, whips and chains aren't gonna do that, good quality feel and timing is what he will understand faster than any gimmick.

Make sure that horse is safe to be around for his owner, there might need to be a decent trainer involved. Consider that he might become ok to be around on the ground, not pushy all the time, good enough to get by, BUT when the crap hits the fan or another horse runs up behind him he could flatten the owner. So get him really solid all the time, not just tolerable. This can be taught to any horse (it is just a whole lot easier if they aren't trained to be pushy in the first place).

[Foxtrot's]

Actually, Horsegirl 520 said not to feed treats. The problem for the OP is that the horse is already disrespectful in a big way, not that it is getting that way. I don't see negativity - but practical down to earth comments from people who handle horses every day. I doubt any of them would be abusive to a horse, but they are darned if they are going to be abused by said horse. It is not the horse's fault he got this way, but that is immaterial now. Some horses pick up quicker, some are slow learners or thick headed. If you are still with us OP, let us know when he becomes a model citizen! I'm tired....

[Sithly]

Actually, Horsegirl 520 said not to feed treats. The problem for the OP is that the horse is already disrespectful in a big way, not that it is getting that way. I don't see negativity - but practical down to earth comments from people who handle horses every day. I doubt any of them would be abusive to a horse, but they are darned if they are going to be abused by said horse. It is not the horse's fault he got this way, but that is immaterial now. Some horses pick up quicker, some are slow learners or thick headed. If you are still with us OP, let us know when he becomes a model citizen! I'm tired....

Amen to that.

[gabz]

I wasn't going to come back to this thread as it seemed like KookieCat has her wits about her and knows how to proceed.

So far as chains over the nose.
Yes. It's another tool. Just like a bridle, a bit, a dressage whip, a saddle, a horse shoe, a spur, a stall to keep a horse confined, etc.

I have a VERY well behaved QH. I had a vet that had NO problem popping this QH in the butt, in the middle of a parking lot of a 70 horse boarding barn, with a vaccination, if that tells you how mild-mannered my QH is.
Regardless... whenever a "professional" (dentist, farrier, vet, chiro) work on ANY horse that I am handling, that horse will have a chain over it's nose.

Do I have to use the chain? I sure hope not. But if that horse reacts to something for some reason. I want him ON THE GROUND and backing up. The chain helps me achieve that.

A whip is simply an extension of my arm. A spur is an extension of my foot / leg. I'm a short person. I need extensions. If I were 6' tall, I could simply lean on the head of the horse. I can't.

Sometimes the pop of whip gets a horse's attention. I have not HIT the horse. Snapping a horse, in the chest, with a dressage whip or hollow piece of plastic gets their attention. It's not hurtful.
3 second rule. Do it WITHIN 3 seconds for less than 3 seconds and MOVE ON.

Good Luck Kookie Cat.

ETA: So far as a boot to the belly. Well. If that's what I've got handy to use, within the 3 seconds, then THAT"S what I'm gonna use. I don't care if it's amateurish. If it gets the horse's attention and makes him think about what he just did... that's a good thing.

[hundredacres]

ETA: So far as a boot to the belly. Well. If that's what I've got handy to use, within the 3 seconds, then THAT"S what I'm gonna use. I don't care if it's amateurish. If it gets the horse's attention and makes him think about what he just did... that's a good thing.

One time I was turning a boarders horse out after the farrier trimmed her - he was standing there chatting with me, I went to let her off the lead and she practically trampled all over me before I could unhook her. I was caught off guard - she was a huge horse so I was holding tight with both hands and I nailed her in the belly with my foot to keep her off me - Yeah - I KICKED HER.... it was that or be trampled (in that second anyway). After that she backed off - I got my whits and spun her around and made her bahave - gave her a moment to think about it and when she was back to behaving I let her off. In that moment I forgot the farrier was there and being a mild mannered Christian man, I turned around and practically looked at the ground I was so embarrassed. I think I even apologized. Several months later I was talking to a friend of his and he told me he LOVES telling that story. He said he had been wishing I'd eventually lay in to that horse (speaking of no manners!). I guess it was amusing that i finally lost my cool....lol. The friend assured me that he didn't think I was out of line....again, in that moment, I protected my arse from getting killed by an 1800 pound PITA. She never did it again either.

[Sithly]

I have booted horses before. Like Gabz said, you use what you've got. I don't think it's more dangerous than any other method of discipline. For god's sake, if you can't stand on one leg long enough to swing your foot into a horse, you've got problems. :lol:

Whether it's effective or not depends on the trainer (or "trainer," as the case may be).

[goeslikestink]

Actually, Horsegirl 520 said not to feed treats. The problem for the OP is that the horse is already disrespectful in a big way, not that it is getting that way. I don't see negativity - but practical down to earth comments from people who handle horses every day. I doubt any of them would be abusive to a horse, but they are darned if they are going to be abused by said horse. It is not the horse's fault he got this way, but that is immaterial now. Some horses pick up quicker, some are slow learners or thick headed. If you are still with us OP, let us know when he becomes a model citizen! I'm tired....

to true

[goeslikestink]

One time I was turning a boarders horse out after the farrier trimmed her - he was standing there chatting with me, I went to let her off the lead and she practically trampled all over me before I could unhook her. I was caught off guard - she was a huge horse so I was holding tight with both hands and I nailed her in the belly with my foot to keep her off me - Yeah - I KICKED HER.... it was that or be trampled (in that second anyway). After that she backed off - I got my whits and spun her around and made her bahave - gave her a moment to think about it and when she was back to behaving I let her off. In that moment I forgot the farrier was there and being a mild mannered Christian man, I turned around and practically looked at the ground I was so embarrassed. I think I even apologized. Several months later I was talking to a friend of his and he told me he LOVES telling that story. He said he had been wishing I'd eventually lay in to that horse (speaking of no manners!). I guess it was amusing that i finally lost my cool....lol. The friend assured me that he didn't think I was out of line....again, in that moment, I protected my arse from getting killed by an 1800 pound PITA. She never did it again either.


yeah theres a small difference its a one off, not a continiuos thing,,
but as a one off, can be a short sharp shock as to respect you and make the horse think

when we 1st got ollie he was well knownn in the area as the beast, mainly becuase hes a very grumpy horse and on the ground lethal ridden hes a diamond but to handle was another thing, we know why to - h e got beaten -wont go into all that,

theres a difference with him again as his arggrresion was more of defence - so anyone that came near him he would go into defence mode-

one day when debs was doing his water he was behind her and she was bending down with her back towards him, this horse took ful advantage and reared in his stable
at that precise time i walked into the outer door of the barn i saw him go up, all i could do was shout at debs- ie debsssssssssssss- she looked up his feet above her back
all she could do was to punch him -- and she did she didnt have a lot of time nor space but somehow managed to punch him dead square on his nose
now this boy is a 17.3h warmblood horse--------- since that day hes been like a lamb in her hand-
thats not abuse to the horse- thats a reaction of circumstanes of the horse taking the p and being fully aware of his space his envrioment and whos in it-
but saying the horse has never done it agian- we since found out from having him this wasnt aggression as such but more of a way of defending himself ollie hits out 1st before being hit--becuase this boy fell at a major show and was taken to the box via his rider and a couple of others held down with the bridle and beaten about the head with a shovel

so anything in a stable with another perosn he went into defence mode------
of course at the time we didnt unerstand why but have learn the truth over the years off owing him as we did see him fall our selves at the county level national show and we know who done it --

in certain circumstances as with the incident with deb- its a one of thing to do as in not much else your options are taken away as out of your hands or out of your control
a spur of a moment - but that moment meant life or death for her-----------

in which case wasnt an abusive thing to do- and the horse has never pushed the boundaires every agian all be it with me, hes fine if i shout at debs he gets upset and doesnt like it
we have since worked out this stems from when i shouted at debs when i walked through the barn doors-------- and he gets sad-- he hates shouting

now there is aggression and defensive and objective of how a horse thinks

agrression is nasty and meant
defensive is nasty
objective is see how far i can go

this horse is objective type

horses pyscology is rather complexed,, in some areas , most people think they think like us but they do not, they have the same hearing as a dog, they have the same memory as an elephant so good or bad they will remember
but they dont think the same way-- as above

for exsample -- if a horse nudges you when leading ie pushing you a lot of people would think oh he wants me nudge nudge nope hes pushing the boundary

a dominate horse out in the wild that pushing another is pushing that one into the unknown

ie you 1st see if you get killed -- this could be at an area of grassing where preditors are

its you go 1st before i enter type thing--

horses dont think the same way humans do they know there on the dinner list, and there 1st thought is to flee-- if they cant flee becuase they restricted ie, lead, ridden , then they become advasive and step over the boundry line

if you hesitate and not give clear indications or clear signals the horse will advade you

hesiatation cause in a horses mind the fear of doubt--- doubt causes confusion in a horses mind and alck of trust and lack of confidence


you must give clear signals of your intentions, so doubt sets in the horses mind

for exsample -- if you go to pick up a horses foot and he snatches and you hesitate to try again- then you have give the horse fear of doubt
as you have not been direct and clear in your signal or assertive, confident in what you are doing so horse advades you as in lack of trust etc

of course if the horse is strong and has learnt to use his baodyweight then you agaisnt him will not win even if it was a shetland you wouldnt win as there strenght far outweights the humans
sometimes the human has to use other methods
chain, whips etc
but then its how they use them and for how long is nesscary
but there are other things like pressure halters that work well, or the good old water pistol a couple of squirts will pull ahorse up to
if kicking out then under the water hose it goes can kick out as much as it likes water dont hurt and i can stand there just as long as it takes

treats are a no no they dont work an only creat a problem more so as it encourages a bad behaviour and rewards it if you give a treat then give it in his dinner bowl




rewards- are there already at home with out giving extras treats to get xyz
a satble, a bed, hay. water, feed work, field, etc these are rewards for the horse
ie farrier care, vet care and good management of the horse if hes happy at home and in his work hes happy in mind and body
a good sratch a pat and a cuddle and being direct assertive and respectful
and not namby pamby--
treat the horse as you would yourself with respect and he will respect you


to understand a horse then 1st you must get close to that horse
that one sentence has many meanings
give and take good or bad the horse learns from us the human hand,
its not the horses fault

[caballus]

Here's a bit of a hint - its always the "low men on the totem pole" who physically fight for position in the herd. In other words, the leaders will "assume" the position just by their demeanors and the other horses will "choose" that horse for his/her leader. As long as we puny humans continue to "fight" with the horse we place ourselves low, low, low in the hierarchial ranks of the herd. Not where we want to be cause that's where we get hurt. The horse is being bargy because he's learned he CAN be ... that he is higher ranking and he doesn't HAVE to be respectful. It's not about the whip or the bat or the chain or the halter - its about the demeanor and the attitude. BE the lead horse. BE higher ranking. Make yourself BIG and say to him "exCUSE ME! I do NOT like to be pushed around!" and then work on his hind-end a bit (hind end disengagments) until he's soft and compliant with his head down a bit and he's BLINKING ... and, possibly chewing. Then let him relax, think on things for a moment or two and return him to where you first started. Then, assertively ask him to walk WITH you politely. No can do? He's barging again? Repeat the same scenario above. Absolutely NO fighting with him. No shanking, no aggressive attitude or actions ... as the Dog Whisperer would say ..."Calm Assertiveness". If he barges through you again let him run into the end of the rope and stand firm so he'll HAVE to swing his hindend around to face you. Then work your hind end disengagements again. Wait, once again, for the blinking and the head lowering. Then calmly go back to where you started once again and say, "Come on, we'll try this again." Ask him to FOLLOW you back to your original start place. If he gets too close on your heels GET BIG AGAIN and say exCUSE ME! You are TOO CLOSE! and back him up with ASSERTIVENESS; not aggressiveness. Let him think on it for a few then repeat request. It is YOUR ATTITUDE that is going to change his thinking. Not your physical prowess. That does diddly-squat except to challenge him to furher fighting with you. BE his leader. BE assertive. BE calm. BE expectant that he IS going to move and respect you. Take as long as it takes and always approach him with the assertive, leader attitude. Then ... have fun teaching this to his owner! It's not about the horse!

[LegoMyMego]

Oh boy can I relate to this thread. My horse is STUBBORN!

What would you do if you asked him to back, and he just raised his head and stood still? A whack across the chest with a bat and a loud "BACK!"?

Also, even when I ask my horse to (while I'm on the ground) walk on or take a step to the side, I get such a delayed reaction. Do I just have to ask HARDER?:confused:

[caballus]

Well, one always wants to start the request with the lightest amt. of pressure possible. This is merely a "glance" their way to ask them to move. If no response then up the pressure small increments at a time until you get a response. As soon as they "try" to back (this means even a lean back with no hoof action) then release your pressure instantly and reward. A nice scritch in a favorite place or even a Cheerio or piece of grain. Repeat, starting with the "glance". Be patient but be assertive. EXPECT your horse to move back when you ask! In other words, don't ask him to step back while you're thinking, "Yeah, RIGHT! Like THIS is going to work!!!" *grin* ... Ask him to step back EXPECTING him to respond. Just changing your thinking is going to change the energy your horse is receiving from you and if he feels your energy going out with INTENT and with "OK, you will back up NOW!" thought, then he will read that and 'hear' that much stronger and more loudly than a crack on the chest or whatever done in frustration. Horses are designed to take in and "read" the energies around them as part of their survival system. This is how they "communicate" with one another. Ever notice how when the lead or the alpha mare merely glances at another horse that is too close and that horse will reel away? If not, what does she do? She'll swing her head around with her ears back (next increase of pressure) and then, if they don't listen she'll reel around, herself, to physically "bite" the offender. But the bite rarely does any harm. So think in terms of increasing your pressure that way. And, as soon as the "offender" has complied, the INSTANT of compliance, RELEASE the pressure and reward! There's no force that way, no "punishment" for the horse simply being a horse and energy and INTENT speak a whole lot louder than our voices and even our body language!

This may sound "hokey" to some but I have rarely had a horse not respond, nor have my students, when the human's INTENT is in the "right place". THINK assertively .. you ARE bigger than the horse *grin* ... FEEL assertive instead of frustrated and aggressive ... EXPECT the horse to comply simply because you *are* his "leader" and be patient. Think in terms of "teaching" your horse instead of "training" or "making" your horse do/learn something.

In extremely tough situations I may swat the horse on the chest (if I'm asking for a back up) with a bat or crop and I'll MEAN it (and the horse KNOWS I mean it just like he would a "bite" from his mare) but I won't do it with frustration or anger ... but will use this simply as the highest "pressure" that I feel might be needed for that individual horse and usually never have to use it again. Again, remember, physical hitting, swatting, smacking, shoving, pushing, or whatever, only invites the horse to return the favor somehow and play "the game" OR will make the horse fearful of you at which point nothing is gained and much is lost.

[gabz]

What Caballus says is what I fully support and use whenever I can.

BUT.. I had a horse that I bought, that had been over-densitized by a natural horse trainer. You could swat the horse all day long and he stood absolutely still and ignored anything tossed at him. Gee... what wonderful training. He was round penned to death...

If I walked toward him with a bucket of feed? He was pushing me over and pushing the other horses away. He laid his ears back, snapped at them, backed into them and kicked or threaten to, etc. He was "bargey" with them and me.

No feed... and if I tried to come through a gate, did he know "back up" as other horses know? un uh.

When I would lead this horse, he would go at whatever pace HE decided. He would flip his head, stop dead in his tracks, swing his butt away and stand facing me. He had / HAS, no frigging ground manners.

I'm doing all the things Caballus is saying. That is, when I get a hint of response, I release pressure. I take tiny little training steps with him.

But when this horse first came on my property? And he took out a couple of STEEL gates by trying to get over them (5+' high and he's only 14.2 and extremely overweight) to get back with the herd. He was stepping on my toes (trying to at least) and running through a stud chain, double halter (one was a rope halter with extra knots), etc. etc. He needed to be "smacked" around in order to get his attention. I had to smack his chest and his front legs. I had to get "big" (for 5'3.5", that's hard) and I had to grunt at him. And when I say smack, I mean a "pop" with the whip or the lead. Not a bashing or whipping. If a horse is overly desensitized and spook proofed, the horse doesn't care. I didn't WHIP him. I didn't shank him for no reason. I had to send him to a friend for some work (she's 5'10" and grunts better). and now he's back at my place still learning.

He was allowed to bully all the other horses ever pastured with him during his 5 years of life. He respected the man that owned him as being alpha. That was it. It took him several weeks to get over being separated from his old herd that let him bully them. It took him another few weeks to realize that the new herd was not going to put up with his behavior. I almost wish I had the use of a mean mare to turn out with him.

He's a lovely horse - a Black & White Missouri Fox Trotter. Well built, smart, willing to learn and learns at an average speed and once he gets it, it sticks with him. Which is why I have to be careful... if I make a mistake and he learns the "wrong" something, then I have to unteach that. Wonderul gaits and relatively bombproof which is why I bought him. He's only green broke though.

[Sithly]

Caballus has the right idea -- when the horse doesn't understand what you want. You have to teach before you can enforce. Oftentimes, though, the horse understands perfectly well, but compliace isn't a priority for him. You need to make it a priority. :D

The first step is to make sure the horse understands what you're asking. If he doesn't, teach. If he does understand and simply chooses not to comply, get after him -- [b]hard[b/]. It's far, far better to give one BIG punishment than to nag a horse to death with little taps and light pressure. Most horses will be happy to ignore you all day, or give you half-assed, distracted, lazy responses. Not good enough. You want a snappy, "Yes, ma'am!" attitude.

When you are confident that the horse knows what you want, get after him and MAKE IT COUNT, in a big way. He should be startled. When you have his full attention, make your request again, in the softest and gentlest way. If you don't get an immediate, snappy, "yes, ma'am," response, get after him again. It should only take a few repetitions to get the point across. Usually if you sharpen up one skill, like backing or going forward on request, the other skills will fall into place without incident. That's because the horse is focused on you and not on his own agenda.

It's true that you should always start with the smallest request, but with a lazy, rude, or complacent horse, you can skip the steps in the middle. This will not make the horse fear you, but it will wake him up and make his response time quicker.