Incredibly frustrated with my horse - please help!

[Wigwag]

(videos near bottom of page two)

I will try to keep this at a reasonable length, but I need to get this out. Thanks in advance to those who read and can give some insight.

I have a coming 6 yr old TB that is the light of my life. I love him to pieces. I've had him since he was 18 months old, started under saddle at 3 yrs for a few months (w/t) and then really started as a 4 yr old. No canter until 4 1/2 yrs. So very slow, probably (ok, definitely) not always proper and correct dressage riding. I was a former event rider and looking back, I did a lot of things incorrectly!

I am now riding at a really nice primarily dressage barn, with some upper level riders. Most are really nice, mind their own business, etc..but one in particular gives advice (often unsolicitated, but usually good advice, so I try to appreciate it and take it). She even rode my horse once, and I was really impressed with what she made him do.

But he was miserable and utterly stressed.

This is my fault, because I have never really asked him to move properly. He is safe and sane, and a happy go lucky kind of guy. Up until recently, he was a blast to ride. Could canter on a loose rein, did anything I asked of him. Does downward transitions with me just sitting deeper in the saddle, turns off my legs well, etc..

Problem?? He doesn't "round" and move FORWARD like a proper dressage horse. He will move forward. And he will round. But he will not do both at the same time. He wants to stick his nose out and be a brat about it. And yes, I am aware there is more to rounding than nose to ground. It is a full body movement. He will give - to an extent. Funny thing is, if I get on bareback and walk around the arena for 20 minutes doing 20 meter circles, etc...he's getting foamy on a loose rein. I don't get it.

But when I ask him to do this, we end up in an argument about him saying he can not round and move forward at the same time. More leg - less hand, corrects this problem for a stride or two and then he's back to wanting to stargaze.

Now, please don't misunderstand - when we are just riding and hacking, w/t/c/, he's not evading the bit to the extent of no contact. He will take up contact, but does not reach into it and soften, round, etc...He has a great mouth (checked twice yearly by very experienced and trusted vet). Always floated at least once of those two times. This, I do not believe, is a pain issue.

It's a training issue. And one I am no longer sure I wish to pursue. I am ruining my relationship with my horse, and for what? I don't wish to show. Maybe little shows once in awhile, but I'm long past the age of needing to go home with the blue ribbon. He and I had a full blown fight last week, and I went home very upset with both he and I (mostly myself, as this is not his fault). I found myself so ticked off at him because I was simply asking him to GIVE to the bit, and move FORWARD at the same time. A task that he is capable of doing, and has done, but decided that day that he did not wish to do it. Lots of possible reasons for it, but it came down to me wondering yet again - is it worth it? I actually thought for a brief period of time that he was going to rear up on me, something I would never have DREAMED he would offer to do. He was so upset and frustrated, and I as well, that I should have just gotten off. I was trying desperately to end the ride on a good note, and I believe that it got to the point that I should have just stopped, and tried again on another day. Because we never did get to a good note.

I have a fantastic horse who I know is capable of higher level movements (and by this I mean simply rounding, moving forward - "higher level" than he's currently moving - I have no aspirations of big shows!), and I feel that he's at the age where I've let him go along quite happily all this time how he wants to, and I no longer ask anything of higher level.

I can not afford good training for him or I. It's available, and I'm trying to work it into the budget, but honestly I just don't know if the $$ is there to do it regularly. I don't want to destroy both of us trying to do something myself that I seem to be failing at.

I guess what I'm getting at is this: is it actually harmful (physically) for the horse to be permitted to travel as he pleases, without giving and softening, dropping head, etc...?

Or do I need to just push through this and demand of him that he soften and move forward at the same time? Is it supposed to be this much of a fight? I'm trying to tell myself that in 6 months time, it will be better. But I'm concerned that I'm going to do serious damage to our relationship and his future training. Perhaps in a few yrs time I'll have the money for real lessons with a real dressage instructor, but if I screw him up now trying to do this on my own, it may be an uphill battle. :no:

[cheekyhorse]

I think in your case, where you have no help with him, that you are best to just ride him in a hacking type frame where he will be happy so neither of you get frustrated and hurt emotionally or mentally. It's not going to 'hurt him' to be ridden around like a school pony if that is what you feel like doing. Many a horse has started it's career from later in life after racing, hunter/jumper, western or W.H.Y. careers. Don't worry about it. I think it would be more worth it for you to enjoy your horse, than to have everlasting battles with him. Especially since you have no aspirations to show, and can't afford training at this time, it's best to just carry on how you've been doing things. Enjoy him!

[A Horse of Course]

I wouldn't mess with trying to get him forward and round until you have a qualified trainer to help and make sure it is being asked for correctly.
And if you never do, that's ok too! I just would not mess with forward and round, ride like you were before since you were both happy. So I say stick with happy!

[Sabine]

WW - this is a tough case- not sure how to answer...it seems that you are a hothead in a way and your horse is probably as well- that's why you love each other.
Sad thing is that if you can't afford regular training- you wont change anything in your relationship. So I tend to agree with the previous poster that if you can't find a way- live a happy life with your horse- that you love and leave it at that.
Otherwise- figure out a budget and try to find a solution...there are always solutions available- it just depends on you and your willingness to do something in return or bargain or swap services or whatever works- where there is a will there is usually a way!

Your horse sounds lovely and I think there is probably just a little bit here and there that needs fixing...even a video training relationship might work...there are a few fabbo trainers on this board- that I believe could tell you lots....and I would definitely think that it's worth while to explore. The main thing is really - examine your heart and see if you are really serious about this- if you are then find a way- if not- then cruise and enjoy your wonderful boy!

[Dale R]

I agree that you could just cruise on your horse and he'd be happy, and you'd be less stressed, but what I read into your post is that you want a bit more than that. The success and enjoyment of having a horse working well under you, being physically and emotionally balanced, and performing in concert with you, regardless if you ever compete.
I understand that. I also believe that when a horse is taught how to use his body properly it benefits him physically.
As far as how to achieve all that with your horse, well that's the tough part. Do you have experience riding horses that were truly forward and round? If not, then you'll have to expect some frustrating days while the two of you figure it out together. Let me digress just a moment...There is a difference between having an equine dentist treat your horse and a vet. A dentist will go all the way to the back of the mouth to check for lateral and medial points. He/she will also look for abnormalities in the arcades and find hooks in the back of the mouth that a vet probably won't look for. I know some vets do the dental work, too. Hopefully yours does. Another bit of advice, have a chiropractor check your horse. An old fall, casting, or even poor carriage for an extended period of time can tweak a hip or shoulder, and pull vertebra out of alignment. Digression over...
If you were my client, this is what I'd tell you to do. Put your horse in a round pen and watch him move. Evaluate his topline, stride, cadence, and movement. While you're going to get upper level movements when he's loose, you will be able to see if your horse is capable of lengthening his stride and releasing his topline on his own. After getting the sillies out, he should be able to track up and/or overstride at the walk and trot (the latter being preferable) and stretch his neck in front of him with his nose poked out just a bit. His canter should be forward, free swinging from the hip and shoulder, deep hocked, and have very little vertical movement. If he's bunched up (shortened neck, compressed and/or hollow spine, vertical movement) on the ground, he'll be bunched up under saddle and not willing to reach for the bit. I'd work him in the round pen, or on a long line if a round pen isn't available (it's just hard to let him stretch and avoid having him step over the line) until he's developed some nice elastic topline muscles and a forward confident gaits.
After that, I'd put him in a surcingle with contact on only the inside rein until he figures out how to accept the contact and readjust his body in response to the pressure. The rein should be adjusted so that when he holds his head/neck in alignment with his body he feels firm pressure until he's got his face on or just barely in front of the vertical. Once he's consistent with that in both directions, you'll be able to follow up with a similar inside rein bend under saddle, and he should accept it pretty well. You can also introduce the outside rein at the same time. Just use it to support his alignment. If he stiffens against it, soften him with a deeper bend on the inside rein for a stride or two.
I think that watching your horse and learning what is current abilities are and building his confidence, and your own sense of what he needs from you when you ride him, will make a difference in how the two of you progress.

I hope this helps.
I wish you all the best!
Dale

[gemaholic]

How is he doing circles and leg yields? I mean, does he get all upset if you ask him to curve his body around a circle? Is he OK if you push him off the rail a few feet using your leg while walking, trotting? Can you sort of zig-zag on and off the rail with you using your leg to push him over, not your rein to steer? This will help him learn to carry himself and gain strength without (perhaps) making you or him crazy. You could even do it on trail. No frame! Just a nice low key, relaxed inside leg to outside rein circle then carry on your ride. Later do a nice sort of leg yield, inside leg to outside rein then back to what ever you were doing. A few here and there to begin with. As he gets stronger, you can do more.

Kinda sneak it in on him. He'll never know. :D

Susan

[ozjb]

First of all I have to say that I am NOT a rider. My children ride and compete and I have been to millions of lessons, which means nothing. But.

Your horse sounds just like my daughter's TB. He is a fabulous horse, tries hard, etc., just cannot figure out this business of round AND forward. Except when ridden bareback. So, in his case, what was happening was that he would try, his back would lift and ouch, there was that saddle. We only thought it fit. It DID fit when he wasn't being asked to change the way he worked. (He is an eventer and finds the dressage a challenge anyway.)

Our trainer likes to say things like "the saddle should be invisible. If they work better without it, maybe the saddle isn't right." I now have enough saddles to open my own tack shop and still can't find the right one! LOL Good thing I like this woman and the way she teaches.

Anyway, it's just our experience which isn't really any help, is it? :-)

[slc2]

LOL Sabine. People usually find a way to afford things they really enjoy. It's things they hate doing that they can't find a way to afford. I would have taken just about any job in the world to pay for my lessons. Wait a sec - I did! If this lady was not so frustrated and miserable, she'd probably want to do this a bit more :)

Summary:
1. you are being taught incorrectly.

2. you are just taking a while to get it

3. your horse is not happy about making changes.

USUALLY....USUALLY it is a mixture of these things.

I seriously doubt that every horse that is generally fussy while their student rider is learning dressage has that predictable of a solution (surcingle, one side rein, etc). Each case is different and there is usually no one thing that's going to magically fix it - it's a more general issue in which MANY things have to change and it takes time to resolve. No magic silver bullets.

Well a lot of people will probably say, 'fly, fly and be free! some horses just don't like dressage'.

My own experience is different. Unless there is really something wrong with a horse, if the training is done properly, they show and amazingly consistent acceptance of it.

You sound very emotional - I think the best thing to remember is to cut yourself some slack and give it some time learning something new. It may very well be that it just needs more time...but I'll write about some of the possible issues.

To learn a new way to ride, both horse and rider are going to struggle a little. A really good dressage instructor can help you get there.

If "I can get round and forward, but not at the same time" is happening, it's the oldest problem in the book, and the commonest. It's because you're doing it wrong.

If the instructor, like quite a few of them, thinks that dressage is a kind of 'trick' where you waggle and wiggle and see saw the reins til the horse says oh what the hell and drops his head, and then you figure out how to keep it there, she's going to have a LOT of students whose horses object.

Why? Because horses cling to habits, of course, but also because this is the wrong way to do dressage. And the more you try to do it, the more pissed off they get.

The more you try to twiddle-yank etc the reins, the less the horses like it. It doesn't really matter if you yank like a sailor or twiddle or 'sponge' the reins or whaever you want to call it like a lady picking up a teacup...it still doesn't work.

Sure, a quiet old horse might sigh and say 'oh well, I'll stick my head down', quite a few won't.

Instead, what a classical instructor does is he teaches you how to just work your horse, sit properly, hold your hands correctly, and push your horse out to the bit...it's a very subtle difference, I suppose, but the way to do this is you never actually 'make' your horse 'assume the position' at all.

Not that you do nothing at all, either. Push the horse a little to one side with one leg, bend a little here, push his nose out to reach for the reins, he's got to take a hold of the bit, even if he can't immediately bend or give to it...if he can't bend or give, so much MORE the reason he needs to reach and take a hold of the bit...use a supple light hand on the reins...and eventually, without trying to MAKE a pose...the horse just winds up in a nice posture, NOT because he's being held down wiit hthe reins, but because he's bending, moving forward, bending his body...you don't actually TRY to get your horse's head down or in at all....you just bend him, move him forward, and most of the time keep a very quiet hand and keep pushing him out to the bit...and it happens 'by itself'.

Story. My friend rode around for YEARS on her gelding, his head cranked into the clouds, back dropped, rushing around with quick, unbalanced strides...the trainer tried for hours and hours to convey to the student, how to get his horse round and forward. Student was so totally frustrated, angry, went from instructor to instructor....

New trainer gets on horse. She sits there still. The horse arches his neck, mouths the bit softly, and moves off in a nice long strided, easy walk. Trots. Nice, round, supple, nice long trot stride, canters in a nice balance....

The student FLIPS OUT! She starts SCREAMING! 'WHAT THE ***** DID YOU DO??????'

LOL...."I just got on the ...." STUDENT PROCEEDS TO FREAK OUT TOTALLY....LOL.

So....depending on who you are taking lessons from, the problem can be:

1. you are being taught incorrectly.

2. you are just taking a while to get it

3. your horse is not happy about making changes.

USUALLY....USUALLY it is a mixture of these things.

#3 is basically: The horse has been trained to go on a loose rein with no contact, without being round and forward and using himself. And like most horses, he really likes that easy way of going along.

And very often, horse and rider have an agreement. The agreement with the horse is 'If you don't piss me off, I will go around'.

MOST of that not round and forward at the same time kind of ridng you describe is indeed, a compromise. Both the horse and rider usally really like it because it's easy for both of them, and the compromise is not in writing or very conscious. But it is a compromise. I find a way to go around without demanding too much and my horse will do 'le minimum'.

I've seen 'compromises' that involved rules like 'You don't make me go too forward' and 'you don't expect me to make a connection with the reins' and even 'I don't do left turns' or 'I decide how fast I'm going, not you'. There is also 'I don't do windy days' and 'I don't do horses leaving the ring without me', and 'On those days when I don't feel like being ridden, you need to not put a saddle on my back', but they are all essentially the same - compromises.

That way of going is perfect for casual riding, and one can do that all day long. It is comfortable and easy. It's not safe to jump and gallop like that, as the horse may not be balanced (not all are safe in that sort of posture, quite a few will wind up on the forehand and trip or stumble). But alot of people ride that way and are quite happy and content. For dressage, that different posture is about getting the horse to use his back and hind legs more, so he can DO the various dressage moves correctly.

The way of going on a contact with the horse rounder, helps to balance him for more difficult work. For example you won't see a show jumper loping around on a loose rein with his head down while he's jumping 5' combinations. They ride on a shorter rein with the horse in a different balance.

Now you're struggling to ride him a different way...and sorry to say, I have a feeling that someone is not communicating with you how this should go or how this should be done. Not that every horse in the world immediately says, 'oh, ok, I'll totally change my habits, and figure this out instantly, my muscles will all suddenly go 'bing' and be in shape to do this, and I'll never complain once about working a little bit harder with my hind legs and back'. NO HORSE really does that. They get habits, and some horses cling much harder to their habits than others.

But I also think someone is not totally showing you the way. A really good dressage instructor can show you how to do this so your horse isn't AS irritated about it. We can expect that OCCASIONALLY some horses are going to say, 'exCUSE ME????' and object, but it shouldn't be a constant, continual PITA for the horse....unless he's one of those very rigid thinkers who just can't STAND anything to change...THAT horse will have a hard time.

You may be switching back and forth between the old way, too, riding the new way in lessons and riding the old way when the instructor isn't there...that might be just because you want to do that to relax between lessons, then you have to pay the price - if you're switching around alot, ANY horse is going to complain.

If it's because you don't understand the new way enough and it's something yoiu have to constantly work at and that's taxing for you...or...as I think...someone is not communicating to you very well. You should be coming out each day thinking, 'oh MAN I can't wait to work on what we did in our lesson last week'. You should be enjoying this, if not, one or more of the above is wrong.

Do you HAVE to school your horse this way? Will it kill him if you don't?

IF you try to do the move difficult dressage moves without contact, without acceptance of the bit, without the correct rein length, with a horse that is fussy, irritated and objecting.....you aren't going to score well, even at a smaller show. And you're going to put a lot of stress on your horse.

If you don't WANT to do this, don't.

Many just don't like to work at all the details in dressage, bending, using your legs, constantly looking at how you can sit and use your seat,leg and rein better...if you just don't LIKE it...run away. Fast as you can. Just be sure what you're running away from is dressage, not some wierd imitation of it.

if it is really going badly and your horse is miserable at the lowest, easiest level, something is not right.

[AnotherRound]

Wow - there is some good advice in this thread. And a Slicking-core dump! - probably some good advice in there too, if you can wade through the self congratulations in it. I suspect, though, that you will not be successful getting your horse to do what you are not trained to do yourself, but you can educate yourself with little money, if you are thoughtful.

You can educate yourself with books and dvds, and also by auditing some trainer's sessions, too. Dive in to get as much education as you can scrape pennies together to get for yourself. Think of it as educating yourself, not just getting some lessons, and you might open up some ways to learn beyond expensive lessons.

It was suggested above to see if you can get some trainer input from off this board. Pull together some well thought out videos of you and your horse together, and ask some thoughtful questions of some of the folks here who's business it is to teach, and you might do well for yourself.

You might also see if there is a good rider near you who can get up on your horse a couple of times to determine if he can respond to some better riding than you can give him.

You can improve, even without much money. Just go slow, don't get frustrated.

Good luck!

[FlashGordon]

Just a thought, have you had your saddle fit checked?

Only reason I ask is that I've been riding a lovely gelding who was leaning horribly, rushing, and just basically blowing through my aids and getting resistant. The saddle seemed to fit him just fine, neither I nor his owner could find any trouble spots. So, we chalked his issues up to being green, and having had a less than stellar start by the guy who broke him.

We happened to try a different saddle one day and lo and behold the horse is about 75% better. It's quite a drastic difference. We both feel silly for not trying a tack change sooner.

So even if your saddle seems to fit, and you've had it looked at, maybe do a second evaluation. Can't hurt.

And if you don't necessarily find the root of the problem, that's ok too. Some horses are not cut out to do dressage. You sound like a competent rider and I doubt you're really harming him by letting him go around in a more relaxed, hacking type frame.

Maybe try to hack him outside the ring, throw small pieces of lateral work at him out there, do transitions and figures and things like that. Maybe the drilling inside the ring makes him tense, and stressed. Not to mention that outside the ring, he's more likely to be a little more enthusiastic.

[austin]

have not read all of the above. have you check out any physical reason?

some horses have a small space between the atlas vertebra and the jawbone that makes it uncomfortable for them to really flex at the poll. see if there is much space there. KKyrklund says ideally there is room for 3 fingers when the horse is relaxed.

also make sure his teeth are in great shape.

[vanheimrhorses]

most people think that the chambon or de gogue is for naughty or resistant horses, just the opposite it is good for all horses especially lazy ones, there is NO backwards pressure on the mouth, the horse wearing it on the longe line only feels mild poll pressure and upwards pressure of the bit and lowers his head AND ROUNDS his back it develops the loins and gaskins and all hind end muscles and topline of neck, it does not make the horse go behind the bit or get tense which can happen if side or draw reins are used INCORRECTLY as these have merit as well in good hands, i would longe with the chambon for six months and your horse will be nice and round and have properly developed muscles for you to ask him to do so under saddle and be willing to do so as that is the most comfortable position for him now
I used the chambon on all my young horses and got tremendous results, you do need to use a loose ring german type snaffle and bit guards as rubber bit guards press on the lower jaw and encourage the horse to yield the lower jaw

[babygreenqueen]

IMO its not a good match. it takes a unique person to train a tb. you sound impatient but also started him late, unsure of yourself. better find him a home and yourself a suitable mount. emotions have no place on a horse's back. it takes a wise man to 'listen' to your horse. you want a willing partnership, not a slave. not an easy sit. but he should move on before really ruined.

[Ashby]

There's some wonderful advice on this thread from all the posters who precede mine. Mine is brief. This sounds like a subtle problem of seat. You are not an advanced dressage rider, and yet you are trying to teach a horse some fundamental dressage concepts that ideally should be imparted to him by someone who understands how to elicit roundness and forwardness at a different level than you do. You've heard the old saying, "Green + green = black and blue"? It's usually applied to breaking horses or to jumping, but in a different way it applies to dressage as well. In other words, you need the help of a really fine really classical trainer. Even if it's not affordable on a regular basis, just taking some lessons from a good trainer who will work with both of you, or help you with your issues, can be very helpful.

[babygreenqueen]

its all about the journey NOT THE GOAL. every day you share with your horse should be a joy, you should be grateful and enjoy the work, the process, this is not to say its easy but that is the zen.

[grayarabpony]

I have seen this in some TBs -- they just don't want to give all of the way. I would do something else that he enjoys besides straight dressage. In eventing you don't have to concentrate on just the dressage so much -- just work on forward, straight, relaxed. If that rider had really done a good job with your horse he wouldn't have been miserable and stressed.

[thumbsontop]

I wouldn't mess with trying to get him forward and round until you have a qualified trainer to help and make sure it is being asked for correctly.
And if you never do, that's ok too! I just would not mess with forward and round, ride like you were before since you were both happy. So I say stick with happy!

I agree.

[sporthorsefilly]

Although I only read bits and pieces, it sounds like you are trying to push him into a frame, without careful preparation. Go from loose reins to light contact, once he is happy with light contact (this is with the nose forward in a normal head carriage for the horse), then teach lateral flexion on the ground, then mounted. You apply a small amount of pressure and when the horse gives release it. Once you are moving forward mounted ask for flexion for short periods of time. It is important for the horse to be comfortable, and accepting.

Too many people think that they need to set the head in a perpendicular fashion immediately to do dressage. With a warmblood that may be possible but with a sensitive, intelligent TB you will make him nuts! Go slow and you will get the desired result. When impulsion plus flexions go together properly, it looks lovely and soft...not like the push, pull, kick, kick that makes hard mouths and ugly looking dressage.

[Dalfan]

I agree with the other posters as well, especially slc. :)

From your description it sounds like you are really getting into a tug-o-war trying to get this horse to flex and bend. It also sounds like you are trying to force him into a frame, which he is resisting. How is your lateral work with this horse, on the ground and in the saddle? What is your routine when you come out and ride? do you have a good warm-up before taking up the contact? Are you doing lots and lots of changes of rein, circles, serpentines? When you say he is forward - is he rushing or is he listening to your posting/seat?

I would agree that a vid would be helpful, in the right hands. Is there a possibility you could find a good, kind young rider at this facility who would like to jump on your horse a couple times a week? We had one of those inherently talented young girls where I used to board. She would jump at the opportunity to ride - anything.

[Sdhaurmsmom]

After reading the many good posts, my little 2 cents is to test the effect of saddle fit by comparing how he goes on the lunge to how he goes under saddle. Video of all three gaits under saddle and on the lunge would be helpful for you to assess any difference in way of going. If you see significant increase in freedom of movement without the saddle, try riding him in a bareback pad for a session or two. Video that if you possibly can.

If you notice he is really doing much better without the saddle, you might want to arrange a trial of a treeless saddle and see how that goes. For some horses this makes a big difference in freeing the shoulder and relaxing the back.

In the meantime, work him on the lunge over cavaletti to build his carrying muscles so he is set up better for success in general. This needs to be consistent (but not lengthy) work. In my experience, 15 minutes per session (6-7 minutes per side, WTC), 3-4 x week for 3-4 weeks, will yield some development in his topline. Praise him for stretching down while maintaining the forward, whenever this occurs, so he gets the idea.

I'm thinking this horse hasn't seen that much work, is perhaps not optimally set up for roundness physically, and needs to have his topline fitness developed to the point that it isn't all that difficult for him to do it while carrying you. The cavaletti work may help quite a bit with that. Take little steps and work into it more gradually than perhaps you have done. Make haste slowly - if you love him that much, and have had him since he was so young, you can both take the time it requires. Good luck to you!

[asterix]

You've gotten really good advice, and fairly consistent advice, astonishingly enough.

This is going to be really hard to do by yourself, and without good instruction. So if that's not an option, I'd just enjoy him in ways that you feel more comfortable with.

He is not doing what you want because he does not understand what you are asking (and, yes, some of that is because you may not have the experience to ask correctly, especially with a green horse - -this is NOT something you can just figure out on your own). He is not trying to be difficult or nappy just to upset you and it is not fair to "get after him" or get into a fight with him when he doesn't respond the way you want.

I am sure he also does not have the strength to carry himself properly for more than a stride or two at a time. This is hard work, and specific work! That's one reason why good instruction from someone experienced with green horses is so important -- to be able to know what he is capable of this week, and then next week, and then in 6 months, and to ask always and only for what he CAN give, and never what is impossible.

[Wigwag]

I am going to re-read all of this...a couple of times :) and make sure it's all sinking in.

I really appreciate the advice from most everyone, however, to the person who said my horse and I are not a good match, that I started him too late, and that I should sell him. If you saw us in person anytime other than when I'm asking him to round and move forward, you would not think so. I ride with many qualified people that think we are a fantastic match. He is not a hot head TB. When he gets upset? He simply stops and stands and says he does not understand what I'm asking him to do. He doesn't get rushy and take off. He tries like heck to understand what I'm asking him to do, but as always, this is usually a rider issue and we've hit a stage in training where I don't have the training and knowledge to ask him properly, so we end up in a debate about what we're going to do. I have ridden TB's for the past almost 16 years, so while I'm "green" at dressage, I'm not green at riding nor green at riding TB's.

I also do not feel at all as though I started him "late." I started him exactly how I planned to start him. I don't believe in riding babies, and I didn't so much as sit on him until he was officially 3 yrs old. He was started lightly at the walk and trot, then given some time to grow up and develop, and started under saddle regularly at 4. This was intentional, not a matter of me being unsure of what to do with him and putting it off.

There were many other questions from other - I will respond and answer to those this afternoon. For now, it's my day off and I'm going riding. And I'm not going to ask him to do anything but enjoy the ride. :) Here's to hoping I can get my horse back.

I will try like heck to get someone to videotape some rides. I would love to be able to see what's going on too. Unfortunately easier said than done. I take a ton of pics, but I'm always behind the camera!

[DiscoMom]

I haven't had a chance to read all the replies. I perused a few of them and they seem to be very informative. My previous horse was an OTTB who had been sitting around for a while. When I started him, he also did not want to go round and forward at the same time. It was just completely new to him. I also was not able to afford weekly lessons, but I did put together enough for one or two lessons a month. I had a hard time finding a saddle that he really liked. I ended up with an American Flex saddle that he actually loved and that made a huge improvement. From the first time I put it on and rode, he just seemed to float. He was really able to move more forward and free up his shoulders. You may want to test some different saddles and see if that makes a difference. There is also a great pad out there called the Corrector Pad, which is priceless in my opinion. I also did a lot of lunging/strengthening with him (in short spurts of course), which included ground poles (once he was warmed up) and lots of different sizes of circles and different lengths of stride so he could really learn to balance better and sit on his hind end more, not to mention strengthen his back muscles. I also used a neck stretcher to encourage him to go round and what I liked about the stretcher was that it did not force him into frame and did not force him onto the forehand (I always warmed up first without it and then added it once he was warmed up and moving from behind). I didn't ride in it everyday, but on days when he was being particularly stubborn, I would put it on and ride for about 5-10 minutes with it and then take it off and finish the ride without it. I know this can be frustrating, but time and patience will most certainly pay off. Good luck!

[Kimberlee]

I think that lounging him, so that he gets the idea of forward and round with-out the weight is a key step. He may get upset about the whole thing undersaddle, because of him being confused and all. Maybe getting him going consistently round and working on the longe will help him transfer it to you when riding. As Sdhaurmsmom put in her post re the caveletti, doing consistent work with my OTTB that did not want to go foward and work, it can really help them develop the muscle and idea of being through.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

A few thoughts from another TB owner

Your horse hasn't read any dressage books, so he only knows what he's being taught as right. So if you're not riding him like a dressage horse (I.e. correct training), he's not going to act like one, thinking that your horse will somehow volunteer the "dressagy" part is faulty, IMHO. My TB didn't "come around" until I not only found the right person to work with both of us, but also started serious lessons on a schoolmaster, and started exercising and seeing a chiro myself to ride decent enough to train him. And if you're taking this personally (i.e. major frustration) you're not in the best frame of mind to work with him. TBs, I believe more than some other breeds, really are challenged with the relaxation part and can be easily stressed, so going in frustrated isn't going to help.

All of that said, some horses just won't enjoy the job their owners have in mind for them even if they're physically able to do it, so if you're investing in great trainig for your horse, and see progress, but still no joy in him doing that, find him a job he likes :)

[cuatx55]

I don't think you are necessarily "wrecking the relationship" but dressage does demand a certain level of mental toughness. Everything you have described about not going forward and round at the same time is true. This is a stage of training. I think you need to focus on forward and gradually add in contact. The trick is to stay emotionally neutral, find exercises to help the issues, and work with a trainer regularly. You have to decide what you want to invest into this discipline. If you don't want to continue you don't have to. There is a way to have a pet AND a good dressage horse but it's hard...there is a reason trainers are more effective. For one they of course have better feeling, but they also don't have the "poor horse, he's my pet" mentality. Also, every issue I have with my fussy horse is made a lot worse when I get too fidgety with my hands. I cause a lot of the issues...

[Wigwag]

Well, our ride today was so-so. After the horrible ride last week (by far the worst I've ever had on him), he has had the last week off for under saddle work. My work schedule and the barn hours were not coinciding well, and we both needed a mental break from this.

He did all right today. Not my horse though. What he looked and felt like even just a few months ago before all this rounding and softening started is nothing like the horse I rode today. He is nervous and unhappy, anticipating me telling him to lower his head and soften, while continuing to move forward at the same time. I had a hard time keeping my leg on him as much as I need to, and as a result of this he'll be going along quite mearily and I'll realize my leg has slipped off. I put it back on, and he instantly gets upset thinking I'm asking him to do something (IE: canter). He wants to tense up when I do this, and all I'm trying to do is help support and keep the cues consistent. They are unfortunately anything but that at this point.

I let him just have his head today so he could try to relax (which he didn't take the opportunity to do). He was poking his nose up much moreso than normal and anytime I even touched the bit or put my leg on him he was anxious.

I took video, but it's bad quality because we're either coming and going from the picture or it's too far away to really see anything. But perhaps it will give some glimpse of what I'm dealing with right now. I think my plan here is to stay out of his mouth for a little while and try to get back the horse I know and love. Remind both of us why we're doing this. I don't want an unhappy horse. I recognize that many might think I'm playing the pity role, but my concern lies in the fact that I'm not sure I have the training to do this properly. If I knew for sure that what I was doing was RIGHT, I would push the issue. As I'm unsure if I'm asking him properly, I am having a hard time picking a fight about it and making him do it. I hope that makes sense.

He's really not a hothead - he's actually extremely calm and laid back 99% of the time (gets more up on trails, outside of familiar territory, etc..). Right now, however, he's going to look like the typical hothead high necked hollow backed TB, because after spending two years to have a calm, relaxed, obedient horse - I've screwed it up in a matter of weeks.

The vid's are being really slow to upload, but I will edit this post and include them once they are loaded. They'll be on photobucket.

Here are two of the videos. I warmed him up for approx. 10 minutes prior, walk/trot only. To answer someone's question from earlier - usually he makes very nice circles and he will listen to my leg when asking to step over, etc... HOWEVER, as you will see from todays videos, our circles....are not circles at the moment. He was being rather evasive and fidgeting so unfortunately he looks a LOT more green than he really is. I really just tried to cue quietly and leave him alone, give him a chance to just relax and not be so uptight about me asking him to do things he can't/won't. I have a lot of reservations about posting these because this is NOT how he (we) normally are. You guys will just have to believe me on that though, as I do not have videos as proof of how he NORMALLY is. :) Try not to tear us apart too much. He's a great horse. He's not bad, dangerous, etc...and any issues we have I recognize are me causing them. I will try like heck to get someone to take some good video that is actually critique'able, but if you feel you can critique some from these, by all means ya'll are welcome to do so.

These two are closer up, but we're coming and going from the frame because of the angle and area the camera was in. It is a very looonngggg arena, and I was working in the middle of it thinking that was the best spot for getting us in the frame the most. Trust me when I say I normally don't just do 20m circles like this! We do a lot more long sides, diagonals, serpentines, etc...
http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee304/PlatzWigwag/Cheater/?action=view&current=100_0867.flv

http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee304/PlatzWigwag/Cheater/?action=view&current=100_0868.flv

These next two are much further away, but you can actually see the entire circle.
http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee304/PlatzWigwag/Cheater/?action=view&current=100_0869.flv

http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee304/PlatzWigwag/Cheater/?action=view&current=100_0870.flv

[Mozart]

Have to agree with Sabine.
Your situation reminds me a bit of my own, my horse is not certain he wants to do the amount of work required to step under and round and carry himself. Gives me adolescent back talk and can be rather boorish about it. Which just makes me all the more determined. However, in the last few months we have made a lot of progress due to the patient intervention of my coach. We (horse and I) are having discussions, not shouting matches (me with my aids, he running through the bridle). My coach says we are now talking. Horse still talks back a bit, I say, "look, this is a reasonable request" and he says.."oh, fine then. Slight grumble". He is even grumbling less and I think that we are turning a corner.

However, I could NOT have done this without the help of my coach. If you really really want it you will find a way to get the help. If you don't, that is okey dokey too and there is nothing in the world wrong with having a nice time hacking. Not a thing.

[mp]

However, I could NOT have done this without the help of my coach. If you really really want it you will find a way to get the help. If you don't, that is okey dokey too and there is nothing in the world wrong with having a nice time hacking. Not a thing.


Yup, yup and yup.

My horse is 8. I've had him since he was born. He was started at 4 and I showed him in breed shows. About 18 months ago, we started on this thing called dressage. We've had many conversations about going straight, stepping under, releasing the back and coming through, not going behind the bit, etc etc etc. They're getting more and more civil as we go along. But we'd have never gotten past the head-shaking, crow-hopping, "whatareyouaskingmetodothisiswaytoohard" phase without good instruction from the ground.

Good luck, Wigwag. I hope you can sort it out and start enjoying "your" horse again.

[Dalfan]

He is nervous and unhappy, anticipating me telling him to lower his head and soften, while continuing to move forward at the same time.

This reminds me of a really nice little mare I was riding for a while. Her owner had a very bad habit of just cranking her head down/in while trying to "put her on the bit". When I first started riding her, the least little taking up of the reins, she would throw her head up (so you had a straight line from wither to nose) and bulge her neck muscles. She was in the same anticipatory state expecting the same from me. I wouldn't take the bait and just rode her in a longish rein, but forward. Lateral work also helped this mare in warm-up.

I had a hard time keeping my leg on him as much as I need to, and as a result of this he'll be going along quite mearily and I'll realize my leg has slipped off. I put it back on, and he instantly gets upset thinking I'm asking him to do something (IE: canter).

Your leg should not be gripping/pinching/nagging. It should not be "on", ie squeezing all the time to keep the horse going. It should just be softly draped on his sides.

Good luck to you. It is hard, no doubt.

[Wigwag]

Your leg should not be gripping/pinching/nagging. It should not be "on", ie squeezing all the time to keep the horse going. It should just be softly draped on his sides.

Good luck to you. It is hard, no doubt.

Thanks....I do get the "softly draped" part. I'm frequently being told my a friend/instructor that I'm taking it completely off of him. My previous horse was a bit of a hot head and I learned many a bad habit from him. The number one of which was removing my leg from his side to get him to stop prancing everywhere. Cheater doesn't prance, ever. LOL He's generally pretty laid back. I'm kind of wondering if I really am taking it off him, or if some of the advice I've been given previous to asking for it here has been incorrect.

I think I will take at least a COUPLE lessons from the instructor I have in mind and see what she has to say about all this. At the very least, she can tell me that I'm doing everything wrong, or that I'm doing things ok and he just needs to get over it! :yes:

[Dalfan]

Just watched the first vid. I know how difficult it is to even post correctly when the horse is bouncing around like that with his head in the air. Any chance of getting yourself some lunge lessons to help with your position and hands? You are correct in that he is anticipating being pulled in.

[Wigwag]

Just watched the first vid. I know how difficult it is to even post correctly when the horse is bouncing around like that with his head in the air. Any chance of getting yourself some lunge lessons to help with your position and hands? You are correct in that he is anticipating being pulled in.

I will ask the trainer if she gives lunge lessons.

[Dalfan]

I'm frequently being told my a friend/instructor that I'm taking it completely off of him.

Depending on how your leg lays on your horse, the from about 1/2 calf down should be hanging straight down, not curled up around the horses barrel. The seat, thigh, just about mid-calf are really the only consistent contact points for the leg. Technically, the foot should not come up to give an aid, but that's easier said than done, and you see the pros do it all the time.

Don't get discouraged. My first lease horse a QH/belgian chestnut mare was happy as a clam going around with her head in the air. My instructor once got on her with the owner there (she was the same with owner) and FEI instructor of 30 years rode her beautifully. I asked, what makes her set her head against me, but give to you? She said "feel" and that she had been riding for 30 years. Owner had this mare in training with another FEI rider, a young male, and the first few rides were hilarious. This guy came out of the ring dripping and drenched with sweat. We both got a little snicker with that. But, the point, it is difficult and getting yourself to an educated trainer/instructor, that will work ON YOU is the best advice.

[ideayoda]

He is a pretty cute horse with nice enough gaits, and you are quite upright and still below the waist. I do not think the horse fights per se, but he IS telling you what not to do (and therefore what to do). The contact is not steady because the hands are too lowered (and unsteadily against the bars) therefore the horse seeks to evade that pain by lifting and hollowing (yet he does not run with the tempo). So, what can you do differently to sustain the connection without giving him pain. Two things: by riding on a smaller circle it is easier to get the horse more connected to the outside rein, then unsteadiness is not likely to be so dramatic. The other is to keep the hands more lifted (maybe a little too high...omg...) to sustain a straight line from elbow to mouth. In doing this the bit is less likely to act on the bars, and the horse will stretch f/d/o into a connection rather than seeking to avoid the hand. The two (smaller curved line and tension which does not hurt the bars) will get a more willing partner of your horse. Remember to PULSE the aids, not to hold/push/hang.

Before you mount can you stand in front of the horse and ask him to chew f/d/o by lifting the bit in the horses mouth and/or flip the nuchal ligament L or R and get it to stretch.

Once mounted can you position the horse and take it up until it chews, steps forward, square, lightly flexes laterally, then longitudinally, and then chews f/d/o (all the way to the ground)?

Be careful of the tempo you choose. The walk is active, but it is too hurried. Slow it down little by little, on a smaller circle (with pulsing aids) until the horse starts to offer longitudinal flexion (still nicely positioned nuchal ligament to the inside). Then the hindlegs are connected, and ride again more actively (not faster).

There is no problem with this horse, nor your basic alignment, but the hand/timing/connection/methodology are rather problematic, yet easily fixed over time imho.

[freestyle2music]

This is my fault, because I have never really asked him to move properly.

Why do I think that you already know the answers yourself.

Do you really think you can solve this problem in a friendly way and sit next to the fireplace with your horse and ask him friendly to follow your rules ?

And please don't underestimate your own skills, there is hardly anything wrong with your riding (some sitting lesson will solve the small problems that I noted).

Give it a try and start the battle

[MontanaDun]

I am riding with a trainer whose approach is to teach the horse that correct work feels good - if the horse is basically a good egg with a good attitude, she is all about keeping him happy and building a good happy connection.

I am kind of resonating with the folks who said to check the saddle, especially since you find that he is pretty okay bareback.

One of the things you might think about is trying to get the feeling of raising his shoulders vs the feeling of lowering his head. So as you ride, you can just sit quietly, with quiet hands and think about riding his shoulders up. It might be worth a try for you.

MD

[Dalfan]

Give it a try and start the battle

Please, OP consider the source. Battles will get you nowhere. Going to war with your horse is not conducive to what you seem to have in mind. Unless you are after this type of training;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE

or this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuO0e49oUn4&feature=related

There is a middle ground between extreme hyperflexion and letting your horse walk all over you.

[Gracie]

Bottom line: Riding is supposed to be fun.

It's not fun when you and your horse are fighting.

Perhaps for now, you should re-establish your relationship with your horse in the safest, most fun way -- for both of you -- possible. When you have a nice, relaxed, enjoyable relationship and the rides are F-U-N, then maybe incorporate some basic dressage techniques with a trainer and see how your horse accepts them.

But if you don't "ride" dressage, it may only mean that is not the riding discipline for you and something else will fit you and your horse better.

Good luck.

[ideayoda]

Horses don't flight, people do. This horse is a fairly nice mover even when he is uncomfortable with how the rider is communicating. It's more 'fun' when you can communicate well, but having someone to guide you is necessary imho.

[cuatx55]

Honestly, the video doesn't look "that bad" at all! you both seem fairly relaxed and fluid. I think he's just being a green horse. You are being a passenger and not influencing his frame and outline. Is that bad? It depends on what he is ready for. I would say at this point forget about the contact more or less, go a LOT more forward, and ask for some suppleness/straitness before you start to ask for contact. It's very hard with out having seen the horse in person or having ridden him. Definitely get out the side reins and longe him. You have a nice big arena to work with.

[rabicon]

I have been going thru this with my 13 yr. old trail horse/ jumper/ hunter. :lol: He is best suited for dressage and maybe a master of it than a jack of all trades ;) but anyways he went head in the air and very tense. I've learned that I have to relax alot. Try to relax your upper body and let your hands give with him. He looks frantic and worried about taking contact and really to me he looks like he is more evading than accepting any contact at all. (just from personal experience) We started teaching him how to do strechtes to the sides and then he lunged on side reins some also. After he did this without complaint and was happy then I got on and work on him accepting the same contact he accepted in the side reins (don't crank his head down with them that defeats the purpose and always drive from behind). We had to work on bending ALOT because he was tense and stiff and went a lot like your guy does. I also talk to him under my breath to help him relax. He is a nervous horse and he over thinks things way to much. :yes: It is taking time but he is great now after about 2 months at walk and trot yet the canter still is not so great so now we have started to work on him not falling on his forehand in the canter. Patience is a virtue and relaxing yourself does wonders for the horse. If he takes contact and rounds some for you let go and reward him big time until he understands that its not so bad and good things come from it.

[Wild Oaks Farm]

I haven't read all the posts...but...how many endurance horses do you see that travel "round" all ,or most of, the time? I know several horses that can do 50-100 mile rides and have never learned about "contact" the way a dressage horse does, and they're not ruined (and they're also very sound).

Enjoy your horse! :)

[Luvmyappy]

What type of bit are you using? Can you show us a photo of how the bridle fits him? Perhaps the bit is too high, too low in his mouth or he needs a bit change?

[Carol Ames]

This sounds all too familiar!:sadsmile::no::mad:Please , have a good vet acupuncture/chiro look at him;:yes: I went through much the same thing and found later that my horse had suffered a rotated pelvis,:o which was causing sciatic :eek::cry:like pain; It was diagnosed and resolved by dr. Joyce harman, with the help of Penelope smith an a/c in California

[Marieke]

Hey, don't worry to much, you are going to be fine.

First of all, it is not your horse it's all you (feeling better yet? ;)). I think you have a lovely horse, who is actually in a very kind way telling you what you shouldn't be doing. Take this advantage and learn from the best teacher in the world, your horse.

I think it is great that you do have a concept of forwardness, good for you, and see if you can SMOOTH IT OUT.

The problem is mostly with the trot an the canter. You have a pogo-stick posting, and a pogo-stick canter seat. And you're not alone, LOTS of people have that. But by falling in the horses back like you do, he can not relax the longitude muslce over his back, thus not lifting the whithers, engaging the hind, and carring the head. Basically he MUST lift his head like he does to protect and work the rest of his body.

Now the 'fix'. Go to Walmart, TArget etc etc and buy one of those excersize balls. You know the ones you blow up. Now sit on it. Feet forward, slightly to the side, so you can roll the ball between your legs to a certain extent.

IF you post like you do, up and down, eventually the ball will start bouncing. Great aerobic workout, but not for your horse. Now sit still, legs quiet, and with your seatbones move the ball between your legs forward. Feel your trunk come up your core, your butt slide under. More or less engage your hindend.

Now if you move this idea to the horse, the next time you post, remember the movement you made on the ball and do that in the saddle with only getting the slightest out of the saddle. Posting is not about how high you can get, but engaging the horse hindend into forward ness.

Same for the canter, sit on the ball, one leg slightly infront of the other (and still sitting up right) and engage that ball in a nice up canter ;)


(In case anybody is wondering, I had ankle surgery in December, and in order to stay active and keep my muscles in shape, I bought a ball with video, and then discover how you can still ride without the horse HA! Endless entertainment, and my core muscles are getting back in shape :D)

PS good luck and enjoy your horse, he looks just fine, and ones he can stretch the longitude muscle over the back, he will be able to reach for the bit. Rome wasn't built in 1 day, so have faith! Just watch TV eat dinner, all while 'posting on the ball'.

[Carol Ames]

It was this type of horse who took me to "Centered Ridng " and TTEAM;:yes: have a good masage therapist check him out, :yes::confused:and see what they notice; Are you using a bit he finds comfortable?

[babygreenqueen]

what a lovely indoor to work in. you are very lucky.
IMO you need much quieter hands and a more secure seat and leg. longeing without reins and irons would really help you learn your balance. it does not look like the best match. many many other horses out there.

[Carol Ames]

Take this advantage and learn from the best teacher in the world, your horse. ABSOLUTELY!:yes::yes:;)

[RedMare01]

I only watched part of one of the videos, but you guys really do not look that bad at all.

I went through something similar with my mare. She is a Saddlebred, and her "traditional" saddleseat training was pretty much the opposite of dressage. I played around with her for awhile, just letting her go around with her nose out and relax a bit. She looked a lot like your horse in the video. When I decided to get serious about dressage, I took some lessons on her, and the first few were, well, horrible. She fought (not anything overt, but she was not happy) by spooking at things that never would have spooked her normally, refusing to go toward one end of the arena, was very tense, nervous, etc. It took two or three lessons to get her out of this. By the fourth lesson, she was a changed horse, very willing to work, and continues that to this day.

I think with some smart horses, especially ones that haven't been ridden correctly or allowed to be lazy, don't LIKE to have to do "extra work" or be "pushed around" and basically throw a temper tantrum until they realize that a) the work isn't horrible after all, b) isn't going to kill them, and c) life goes on.

Have you tried working him in side reins on the lunge?

Caitlin

[Carol Ames]

Nice horse! I think you’re doing wonderfully listening to:yes: him as you do! He is very fortunate to have you;:yes: and you are very fortunate to be able learn whatever he is here to teach you! :yes:

[Wigwag]

You guys have been very helpful - thank you. I can't possibly address everything, but here are some answers to some questions:

*Bit fit - I posted a separate thread with a few pics from today, wondering about that myself. All replies have said they think it is too small. If anyone wants to pop on that thread (here in dressage forum), I'd love input.

*Saddle fit - I do honestly believe it fits him well. He was in an ill fitting saddle this past spring, had major temper tantrums telling me it did not fit (I thought it was baby attitude - I was wrong). Used a nice keiffer dressage saddle on him that unfortunately was not for sale (friend allowed me to use it all summer - very nice of her!!!). Then purchased this saddle, wintec 2000 with cair panels, changeable gullet. It seems to fit him well, I really do not think that's the issue. Had a second opinion, experienced, and she thinks it fits well. But I will get a third opinion.

*Chiro work - I do plan on having this done. I've had it done once (been a couple yrs though), didn't honestly notice any difference one way or the other. Maybe a slight improvement though. Guy was a vet/chiro, good reputation. Has since committed suicide and there are a couple others that come recommended...

*Sidereins. I have them, I used to work him in them when he was much younger. Haven't in a veerrryyy long time. At what length should I have them at to be both effective but not hindering (sp?)?

*The arena - I LOVE this arena. I am lucky, in the sense that I can afford to pay the board bill. But unfortunately it is the board bill that causes me to not be able to afford lessons. There are a lot of barns around, but this is by far the best. They take absolutely fantastic care of my horse and I wouldn't trade that for the world. I may not be the best rider/trainer, but I darn well will keep him living in nice facilities. He's a good boy. He deserves the best I can give him. :)

Forward it is! It's funny, I actually always feel like he's traveling too fast, but in watching the video, he looks kind of pokey!

[ideayoda]

THis is not about bits or saddles. Chiro might help in terms of the horse being so tensed from the lack of even connection/requests. Lungeing might help him understand work into a steady connection (lunge with a caveson, first connect them to the caveson, then later to the rings, and help with the lateral flexability), attached about the height of the riders knee.

But in the end it is about the technique of the rider to establish bend, steady light connection, ease of lateral flexability, and chewing and trust. Little differences which make all the difference in the horse.

[babygreenqueen]

photo looks good, best choice of bit, simple loose ring. size looks ok but perhaps too thick. ( contrary to some belief that thicker bits are less severe) the cavesson is too low. if you are positioning a lower noseband like you did here, try a drop noseband instead. Basic Training of the Young Horse by Reiner Klimke is an excellent source as well as Horse and Rider by Alois Podhajsky.

[Wigwag]

For what it's worth, I really appreciate the time everyone has taken to respond and offer advice. After the PM I just got, I kind of wish I hadn't posted the videos at all because I really didn't need to hear something so hurtful. But you have to take the good with the bad I guess. So thanks to those of you who gave the good. I really am not blaming my horse for my lack of riding abilities, and yes I know he's a saint (as you put it) for putting up with me. :(

[Carol Ames]

Ok, strengthening him behind, especially the lumbar sacral area,:yes: will definitely make it easier for him; :yes: You can start that by leading him over raised cavaletti, straight , as well as on a curve;:yes: to encourage him to come up from the withers, I would use a balance "rein/rope " ,:yes: aTTEAM tool, a regular rope or rein which, goes where the neck ring for a martingale or breast plate goes, in front of the withers; It activates the muscles which encourage a horse to come up from the withers':yes:; Used in connection with half halts, and downward transitions; it encourages the horse to stretch /lengthen :yes: into the rein; then i would also use the combing the reins, nose to tail circles exercise; Where are you located?

[Fabulous]

You have received a lot of good advice. But I wonder if you are trying to do too much too fast. Go back to the training scales (pyramid, triangle ~ what ever you want to call it).

Start with a relaxed, rhythmic horse, move on to suppleness, add contact and THEN impulsion. When you loose one part ~ go to the start and reconfirm the previous steps.

[Wigwag]

to encourage him to come up from the withers, I would use a balance "rein/rope " ,:yes: aTTEAM tool, a regular rope or rein which, goes where the neck ring for a martingale or breast plate goes, in front of the withers; It activates the muscles which encourage a horse to come up from the withers':yes:; Used in connection with half halts, and downward transitions; it encourages the horse to stretch /lengthen :yes: into the rein;

Do you have a picture of this by chance? I can't visualize what exactly you mean, :confused: but am willing to give it a try.



Where are you located?

Indianapolis, IN

[Dalfan]

For what it's worth, I really appreciate the time everyone has taken to respond and offer advice. After the PM I just got, I kind of wish I hadn't posted the videos at all because I really didn't need to hear something so hurtful. But you have to take the good with the bad I guess. So thanks to those of you who gave the good. I really am not blaming my horse for my lack of riding abilities, and yes I know he's a saint (as you put it) for putting up with me.

You mean someone actually PM'd to rag on you? Sheesh! Don't let it get you down. You're not going through anything that most haven't experienced at one time or another. It's really not bad at all. It seems if you can work on yourself a bit (hands and seat) that will be half the battle for you. He seems quite the willing type. It can be very difficult and frustrating, especially when you don't have instruction. Get instruction when you can, watch some vids of top riders, put him on the longe. Good luck to you.

[Wigwag]

You mean someone actually PM'd to rag on you? Sheesh!

You know a PM probably isn't going to go well when they put as the subject line: "You're going to kill me, but here goes....I'm really sorry, but...."

:no:

[Dalfan]

Next time, ask to see their videos.

[Wigwag]

Does anyone else think he looks lame in the front? Someone thinks he does (not same person as above).

[Petstorejunkie]

I'll just send you a PM ;)

[DiscoMom]

Wigwag, don't get discouraged by someone's hurtful PM. I think you should be commended for realizing there was a problem and asking for suggestions on how to correct it and keep a happy relationship between you and your horse (especially when you are not able to afford regular lessons). Keep your head up. I didn't see anything alarming, just the typical green horse stuff and like others have pointed out some minor riding "faults" (sorry, I'm at a loss for a better term) in you. I truly wish you the best of luck!!! :D

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Ok, here is what my friend who is helping me said to me the other day. I was trying to teach Frodo shoulder fore and he had a stride or two and then it got ugly, I proceeded to try and fix it and she told me to circle and try again from the beginning because, and I quote (this is not her best example of english grammar, but I swear it came out this way and we laughed), "What starts out bad is only going to get... uhhh... badder." :lol: We laughed but what she was saying is that if my walk is not good, the transition to trot will not be balanced, of my corner at the trot is not good, then my lengthening will not be good. The other thing she said was that, if I ask him for something one way 10 times and he doesn't give me what I want, I need to ask in a different way. That way was not working for that particular horse. So, here is the one thing I would say to you, if you are asking for forward and for give/roundness/etc the same way every time, maybe he doesn't understand that and it could be something as simple as asking a different way. The other thing I might do in your shoes is explore different ways of warming up and suppling this horse. Not every horse warms up best at the trot, I have known many TBs who warm-up better at the canter. Some horses need a longer walking time at the beginning and maybe some lateral work, some are even better off if they are warmed up piece by piece, if that makes any sense. Maybe your boy has not discovered how nice it is to actually stretch through his topline, Frodo LOVES to stretch forward and down. My friend also gave me the advice of, before throwing the reins at him when I want to give him a long rein to relax, she told me to encourage him to stretch down and forward into the contact then give the reins and pat him, first, he must stretch.

[Wigwag]

I'll just send you a PM ;)

I just replied back. Thank you :) And by the way, I meant to say - I really like your sig line quote. Considering everything, it was nice to read and a well timed reminder.

[Wigwag]

Ok, here is what my friend who is helping me said to me the other day. I was trying to teach Frodo shoulder fore and he had a stride or two and then it got ugly, I proceeded to try and fix it and she told me to circle and try again from the beginning because, and I quote (this is not her best example of english grammar, but I swear it came out this way and we laughed), "What starts out bad is only going to get... uhhh... badder." :lol: We laughed but what she was saying is that if my walk is not good, the transition to trot will not be balanced, of my corner at the trot is not good, then my lengthening will not be good. The other thing she said was that, if I ask him for something one way 10 times and he doesn't give me what I want, I need to ask in a different way. That way was not working for that particular horse. So, here is the one thing I would say to you, if you are asking for forward and for give/roundness/etc the same way every time, maybe he doesn't understand that and it could be something as simple as asking a different way. The other thing I might do in your shoes is explore different ways of warming up and suppling this horse. Not every horse warms up best at the trot, I have known many TBs who warm-up better at the canter. Some horses need a longer walking time at the beginning and maybe some lateral work, some are even better off if they are warmed up piece by piece, if that makes any sense. Maybe your boy has not discovered how nice it is to actually stretch through his topline, Frodo LOVES to stretch forward and down. My friend also gave me the advice of, before throwing the reins at him when I want to give him a long rein to relax, she told me to encourage him to stretch down and forward into the contact then give the reins and pat him, first, he must stretch.

That all makes a lot of sense. I don't get a lot of afternoons anymore to watch Dr. Phil (shhhh ;) ) but something he frequently says is similar to what you're saying. "How's that working for you?" The answer here is - it's not. So I need to find a new way.

You might note that despite both of us needing to learn better balance and support throughout the canter (dropped to trot a couple times unintentionally), he picked up the correct leads. This was something that only very recently I found out I was (of course!) cueing (sp?) incorrectly. Now that I cue him with the inside leg, it makes more sense to him and he understands which lead to pick up. Something so simple, and yet something that was very frustrating for the both of us prior to trying something different.

[lstevenson]

Looks to me like a nice horse who simply doesn't accept contact. You will need a good instructor to help you with this if you want to pursue dressage.

Will it hurt him to go around like he is? No, not really. But he's just getting excercise, and is not building up his body in any way. In other words, he won't improve in any way until he accepts contact, and goes forward into it. That's when the real fun begins. :)

[EqTrainer]

My question for you is..

what do YOU really want to do with this horse?

Because you know, there is NOTHING WRONG or CRIMINAL with having a nice horse to hack around and have fun with.

Dressage is HARD. It's hard and it takes an incredible commitment to learning. You have to want it so bad you can hardly live without it, to become very good at it. And halfway dressage is.. well, let's just say it's good for no one - not you, not the horse.

If you want to just enjoy your horse and NOT dressage him, then DON'T. No matter what anyone says.

[LarissaL]

I probably wouldn't push dressage on this guy quite yet either. At this point, he even seems resistant to some of the basics - most notably relaxation, as you've noted :)

I also don't think I'd just continue riding this horse this way. It doesn't seem his natural way of travelling to be so inverted and tense. It's probably requiring him to work just as hard to stay in this frame as it would to be relaxed and working with his hind end!

No shame in taking a step back or using a different approach. I really think going back and reworking this guy's response to FORWARD and relaxation will be the key. I'd do the same for myself (the rider) as well! You're thinking and working so hard up there, no suprise it's not fun anymore :) One big thing that may help you is thinking of INFLUENCING your guy's response rather than dictating it. In particular, I saw that your leg had been brought up a bit (probably to use that heel for forward) and that your arms (literally from hand to shoulder) were trying to PUT his head in a place. They were a bit locked, down near his shoulder.

I would think more of letting the leg fall a bit lower so you can use your calf muscles to push the underside of his belly up, getting him to raise his back and work that hind end. The softness of using your calf there is much more influential to and permitting of him raising his back, instead of using a heel directly in his side to go faster, straight ahead. In the same way, your arms can relax a bit. Let your elbows rest at your side, your hands up and forward a bit. Before he learns to drop his head, he'll have to learn to poke that nose out (think of the arc between nose up in the air and getting him "on the vertical" or however you like to think of it.. it's a progression). Let your hands allow him to put his nose forward, encourage it by putting a little rein out there for him to reach into.

And of course, don't expect it all to happen in a day, a week, a month. Some horses suprise you and catch on quickly, but most don't. You'll likely spend many days just trying to get him to understand using your calf means GET ACTIVE, then more letting him relax and become more responsive to that calf, before you see much of the stretch through the back and his neck and nose dropping down, and much later he'll be at the stage where he can start connecting between your leg and hand. He's not like one of those little snap bracelets from the early 90's.. flat as a board, FLIP, suddenly a stretchy little curly q! And most likely, if he did go from inverted straight to head down and in, he wouldn't be doing it correctly :winkgrin: All the time you spend teaching these little skills and incorporating relaxation will make the more advanced stuff in the future much easier. Good luck!

[Drsgrider]

Wigwag,

I am assuming all physical conditions are fine, teeth,back, limbs ..etc. And that all tack fits correctly.
Have you tried cantering first in warmup? Taking up the reins while cantering in rhythm?

How about a utube video of your ride. That would help greatly. Its very difficult to assess horse and rider just from description.

Happy is better then resistant and stressed. Especially if there is a "fight". Where education ends, violence begins. He wont develope the correct muscles if ridden above the bit, hollow back. Could be this horse and rider combination is not a suitable one. Reality. Horse and rider must fit. Green horse, experienced rider. Green rider, experienced horse. Otherwise your headed for trouble. Which sounds like you are already there.

[ideayoda]

Her pix links are posted (page two I think). Dressage (training) concepts are easy, its application of principles and the every present need for timing of the aids which is difficult. However, if all attempts to help, ask question, etc, and they go unanswered it would seem that the rider wants to be excused to ride w/o a connection. And if the horse goes well w/o a connection, it would seem to say they are telling us to refine ours. The problem is always listen to what they say, and be clear in the progression of training.

[Dune]

I can't view the videos, they just "flash" but never start, so I don't know what's going on. My advice therefore would be to get with a good dressage trainer for a few lessons and then decide if you are really going to "do this". If not, carry on in your merry way. If SO, you are going to have to commit to riding this horse regularly five days a week, every week for the next six months to a year in this fashion. As long as you are firm but fair your horse will pick it up quickly enough and you won't "ruin your relationship". Have you tried longeing in side reins or vienna reins? I have a young mare in the barn that came to be as a 60day greenbroke 4year old started by a cowboy. She's a generally quiet horse, so he just kinda hopped on and rode her. OK. She would walk, jog and lope as long as you didn't touch her face. Hmmm. Longeing in side reins (and longeing in general) was a disaster. Finally I tried Vienna reins and that worked much better, they have just enough "play" in them to make her want to try and play the game instead of fighting the contact the whole time. Under saddle when you took up contact, she would fling her nose in the air (have the spit on the top of my helmet as proof) then dive it down to the ground (thank goodness for strong abs) she would half trot, half walk, throw her body against your legs, go fast, go slow, go not at all, run AWAY at the canter if she even cantered at all. It took a looooong time and I normally ride big WBs that are going WTC nicely on the bit in 30days, this little one took a good six months! :eek::yes: Sometimes I thought she'd never get it, but in every ride I'd get a glimpse (maybe one or two good strides, lol) of what she could do. Well, fast forward to her six year old year and she nicely does WTC on the bit, leg yield, a little shoulder-in, baby 1/2 steps, 1/2 pass even playing with some walk/canter/walk transitions. When she's fresh she still likes to try to resort to her old antics, but she's miles further along in her training and the "fight" (for lack of a better term) doesn't last and she still adores me....whinnies the moment she sees me, comes galloping up to the gate if out in pasture, etc. So, it can be done, you just have to make a decision and stick with it. :winkgrin:

[Southernexposure]

Hi I had some of the same issues... Really what it boiled down to was strenghtening the topline and teaching my horse to strech long and low. I did the long and low while in a two point at first. Imagine doing crunches, what brings relief is to strech your stomach muscles strait. Think about your young horse's topline the same way. The reason he is better bareback is because you don't have the preasure points like you do in a saddle. I would ask a little and reward a lot. Since you have time on your side, go to a good clinic- don't push your horse just because someone else is getting impatient. I would recommend working with him on the ground and teaching him to give to you..
Best wishes and remember it is YOUR horse...

[purplnurpl]

(videos near bottom of page two)

It's a training issue. And one I am no longer sure I wish to pursue. I am ruining my relationship with my horse, and for what? I don't wish to show. Maybe little shows once in awhile, but I'm long past the age of needing to go home with the blue ribbon.
I have a fantastic horse who I know is capable of higher level movements (and by this I mean simply rounding, moving forward - "higher level" than he's currently moving - I have no aspirations of big shows!), and I feel that he's at the age where I've let him go along quite happily all this time how he wants to, and I no longer ask anything of higher level.



Not uncommon.
What happens is the horses get used to not working very hard and when you finally ask them to use themselves they pretty much say, F-U. "I haven't had to do that for the past umpteen years, why should I start now?"
My last group of peeps were like this. No one ever got past Novice or Training level because all they did was jump 2'9'' or 3'. When they finally asked their 10 year olds to jump 3'6'' they had trouble.
Not uncommon at all.

If you have no aspirations of going to shows, and all you want to do is hack then do that!
nothing wrong with having a lovely ride on a loopy rein.

If you would like more than that then you may have to employ a trainer for a few months to get him past the 'hump' so to speek.

no worries!