Breeding Back to the Future...While You Still Can

[Daydream Believer]

http://bridlepath.wordpress.com/2006/08/16/breeding-back-to-the-future-while-you-still-can/

A very intriguing article that someone posted on our breed's forum. Our registry's mission is to "Preserve, Promote, and Protect" and not to change...but many fear that change will come with popularity.

I am curious what other breeders on here think especially after the discussion of Halter horses here and some of the Old Type WB's on the dressage forum. Is breeding for change or for the market always better? Is following the trends your philosophy to sell more horses or do you stubbornly hold to and "old style" or foundation type knowing it might hurt your business?

I find it interesting from my perspective of a "preservation" breeder of a rare breed becoming steadily more popular and trying to show their usefulness to a changing market and promote them there...sport horses and ponies. One reason our breed was never heavily marketed for the last 50 years after formation of our first registry was for fear of people changing them to suit their fancy or to a false show standard. It is also why they are still largely unknown and undervalued. How does a registry and it's breeders hold on to the original type and how can a registry avoid people inevitably wanting to "improve" them? Inspections? Blood Typing? Training?

Is there a balance for a rare breed or for even a popular one to be made in this matter? Is it hopeless that change will happen to all breeds? Can you have your cake and eat it too?

[okggo]

My guess is that these changes are highly based on supply and demand. The Irish Draught is another good example. The breed as a purebred excels, but when crossed with a TB they can go that extra mile. The ID/TB cross became so popular, the purebred dwindled away in numbers dramatically. My understanding, the Irish Horse Board at one point opened their books to get the numbers back up, and approved stallions such as Clover Hill, as a "purebred ID." Ironically he is 1/2 TB (though certainly doesnt' look it). They have since closed their books, but CH and King of Diamonds are two of the major lines in Irish breeding.

I love my cross bred, but if it wasn't for those supporting the purebred and increasing their numbers, he would have never been possible.

The question is, how do we make breeding purebreds/"old style" wb's more marketable? What would it take for these guys to sell, and how do we convince the 4'10" novice pleasure rider that she doesn't need a 17 hand WB and might be better suited on a smaller morgan, SM, QH, whatever...

For breeders that have the ability, breed 80% for the market demand and the remaining 20% to save breed types? I dont' know the answer to this, it's interesting to ponder.

[BravAddict]

While not a breeder, I do have something to say. The "standard" of any warmblood "breed" is supposed to be plastic and fluid; that's what makes a warmblood a warmblood, in many ways. I do not think that is true for the Shetland, which is more of a "landrace" and isn't bred for a niche in the economy, but to be preserved in its original form. At least, that is how I understand things.

[Waterwitch]

This is something I feel strongly about as a purebred Irish Draught breeder.

Breeding for a market "sport horse type" purebred may open up the market for the breed, but if the breed loses its individuality in the process...and this always happens...it ends up being a pointless exercise from a conservation standpoint.

In my breed this means that rather than breeding for a solid, correct, sound, hardy, sensible, all rounder type of horse with the hallmark 50:50 body to leg proportion of the purebred ID, people decide that that is not sexy enough and try to breed something that looks more like a modern warmblood or a big boned TB. If you want a modern warmblood or a big boned TB...that's totally fine, then breed it, or breed ID crossbreds, but don't turn the purebred into something that it's not.

It is the traditional characteristics of the breed that make it such a successful foundation for crossbreeding with lighter horses. If you lose those characteristics, you lose the foundation niche and the breed identity...then what do you have? Just another "warmblood" and not a very good one. A horse that is unrecognizable as an Irish Draught (or other native breed) because it has lost all of its historical phenotypic characteristics is Irish Draught in name alone...what's the point?

ETA: Breed inspections don't help IMHO unless the breed society as a whole has a culture of valuing the traditional phenotype and the inspectors and people in charge of the inspection process take action to maintain historical traits.

[TKR]

Well, the "warmblood" is NOT a breed -- it is still "evolving" to become a breed which is why there are inspections to be sure the ones being bred are helping to bring about the "type" the registry wants to produce and perhaps when they get there, they will close their books and become a breed. That said, I think by improving (or changing) -- whatever you prefer, it is in pursuit of excellence and ability to perform and conform to what people desire in form and function. Personally, I've always thought it was an attempt to re-invent the "classic" Thoroughbred and today's warmblood seems to be in line with that idea more and more. Of course, being one who has always been totally enamored with Thoroughbreds, I never thought they needed a "reinvention", but sadly, the market for them in sport does not support my avid interest.

I don't think any registry with an open book has an axe to grind with changes. I do think it's a shame that some of the actual "breeds" have moved away from their original type when it is evidenced in losing the integrity of that breed. I think they have all suffered to some degree due to "trends". Very tragic.
PennyG

[Waterwitch]

"As to the notion sometimes encountered that preservation breeding is not compatible with selection for improvement or with breeding "quality horses," I think there are two separate ideas here: we want to improve our individual animals, in the sense of breeding to combine more of the best features of our kind of horse in each individual. What we do not subscribe to is the conventional notion that one can "improve the breed," which seems to mean, in practice, "make it look more like some other breed."

-Michael Bowling, in: Arabian Visions, September/October 1997, "Preservation and Improvement: Breeders can have both in their programs"

[camohn]

Even if the WB registries are a fluid thing in the US I think because of the large mare base being TBs or WBs with a lot of TB in them there is a certain need to maintain some of the older/heavier types. I personally prefer a lighter more modern type....BUT I can see where the need IS still there to keep some heavier old ones to not let the WB's get overly TB/too light in type either. Some big/old type WBs I have ridden actually were a lot easier to collect and turn than I would have expected for their tanky selves and others were indeed tanks to steer or try and bend. The former can stay, the latter I can do without!

[Sassenach]

This is something I feel strongly about as a purebred Irish Draught breeder.

Breeding for a market "sport horse type" purebred may open up the market for the breed, but if the breed loses its individuality in the process...and this always happens...it ends up being a pointless exercise from a conservation standpoint.

In my breed this means that rather than breeding for a solid, correct, sound, hardy, sensible, all rounder type of horse with the hallmark 50:50 body to leg proportion of the purebred ID, people decide that that is not sexy enough and try to breed something that looks more like a modern warmblood or a big boned TB. If you want a modern warmblood or a big boned TB...that's totally fine, then breed it, or breed ID crossbreds, but don't turn the purebred into something that it's not.

It is the traditional characteristics of the breed that make it such a successful foundation for crossbreeding with lighter horses. If you lose those characteristics, you lose the foundation niche and the breed identity...then what do you have? Just another "warmblood" and not a very good one. A horse that is unrecognizable as an Irish Draught (or other native breed) because it has lost all of its historical phenotypic characteristics is Irish Draught in name alone...what's the point?

ETA: Breed inspections don't help IMHO unless the breed society as a whole has a culture of valuing the traditional phenotype and the inspectors and people in charge of the inspection process take action to maintain historical traits.

Cheers! :yes::):yes:

[Astraled]

This phenomenon is the reason I've always been so glad that the Arabian Horse Association doesn't have inspections.

[columbus]

http://www.creativenonfiction.org/thejournal/articles/issue12/12nesbitt_theoldsort.htm

[Peg]

I loved the article, Columbus. Peg

[columbus]

There is no historic standard for a warmblood, there is a small collection of horsemen determining what each areas respective warmblood will become. It changes over time...a small amount of time. Breeders can only breed successfully if they work to consider the decisions of the powers that be in warmbloods. You don't get to decide that the warmbloods from your farm will have more bone at the sacrifice of elegance...your horses may not pass their inspections or not with high scores if you do. The foundation for the warmbloods are not what warmbloods are today and they are very proud of that.

A breed supposedly evolved to fill a purpose. A breed should breed true. Two animals from a breed bred together should produce an animal similar to themselves. They almost completely do not exist anymore in America in the shape they did fifty years ago. Arabians must look more like Saddlebreds to be successful in the show ring. The same is true of Morgans. The Saddlebred I grew up with no longer exists or doesn't exist in genetically viable numbers. If you are over forty you have watched the demise of these breeds. For those of us who have a breed we love...mine is Irish Draughts...we get very very serious about any effort to alter a traditional breed and leave those who love the breed with too few animals to continue on with. It is true that a little bit of Irish Draught has made huge contributions but it is also true that when you look at the records for the Irish Horse board you will see many purebred mares never got the chance to reproduce themselves. It wasn't because they were not excellent horses it was because that excellent mare bred to a TB brought more money.

Fortunately, what we are all breeding for is a Sport Horse. An Irish Draught purebred makes a delightful Sport Horse. A Irish Draught Sport Horse or a heavy draft cross or a warmblood or a TB or a Shetland Pony can be a Sport Horse. They can't all reach the Olympics but they can be sound useful horses who are well conformed for Sport and live long, be sound, honest, and have wonderful careers with a wide variety of riders through their lives.

PatO

[ShowjumpersUSA]

The Holsteiner breed is carried on through the mother line. In a nutshell, we believe you keep the genetics of the holsteiner mare and change the "type" by breeding to an HV approved and licensed stallion who brings, for instance, length of leg or a shorter back, a more modern "type".

The more modern type is desirable because of the jumping venues being small and indoors, and/or the need for speed. As the events themselves change, we are breeding more of a "specialist" type horse in each category. We need a faster, more agile horse, but we don't want to sacrifice the characteristics of the breed. We believe the only way to do that is through the mare.

This is how you "have your cake and eat it too". By staying with the motherline if you're breeding holsteiners. If the mare is of another breed and is bred to a Holstiener stallion, you have a half bred.... not the same thing... the genetics aren't present in that mother.

This all seems to be an inconvenient truth within our breed association, but this is the way it's done in Holstein.

[Daydream Believer]

I appreciate all the input! This has turned into a very educational discussion. I knew very little about Irish Draughts and some of the other breeds. it is a bit comforting to see that other breeds have been down the path we are now facing also.

Showjumpers...that is very interesting to use the mareline for stability and the stallion line for change. Fascinating!

[Donella]

I think it all boils down to "user friendliness" if you will.
We breed Hanoverian and Friesians and in both cases, evolution of the breed is a major issue.
In the case of the Hanoverians, I believe they have gone about it in the right way. After WW2, it became increasingly obvious that the demand was shifting from agriculture and military riding to sport. And not only that, a new type of rider came to dominate the scene..WOMEN!. In order to be able to market their breed, the Hanoverian Verband decided to change their breed for the new demand. The older style mare base was kept and new "typey" stallions were brought in..horses with strong athleticism, smaller size, higher degree of sensitivity..ie horses with blood. Trakehner, arab and tb blood was infused..think Absatz, Hohenstien, Black Sky ect ect. Now we borrow from Holstein to get more jump. And while the farmers back in the day didn't like this change (nobody ever does at the time), I strongly beleive this is what kept the breed not only in existance, but in high demand.

It is true that the breed doesn't look entirely like it did in the early part of the 1900's but again, this really is all about form to function. The function has changed from plow/military horse to sport/competition horse ...so, it does follow that the form should change as well. I personally love the look of stallions like Londonderry, Alabaster, His Highness ect. Beautiful is as beautiful does in my mind.

In the second case, the Dutch Friesian ( and this can be applied in many ways to Trakehner as well) we have a good example of function being sacrificed for type. The Dutch are so hell bent on preventing any loss of type that they refuse to bring in any new blood. So we have a breed that has a tiny gene pool consisting mostly of horses built to pull, not to ride and yet a very open desire to create a competative riding (dressage) horse. And, because they are SOOOOO selective, they are making ok progress. But..the progress would be made so much faster if they were to bring in, very selectively, some outside (say KWPN) blood.

Trakehner is the same..they may have the most typey and beautiful of the wb breeds , but they are nowhere to be found at the top of sport like they used to be. They are being left behind by the breeds who are borrowing a little here and there and improving as a result.

So..I guess it depends what you value most. Traditional looks or a functional horse. I personally don't think that one loses identity when one brings in some new blood. The new Hanoverian still looks like a wb. The arabo friesian looks as much like a purebred friesian as can be. But overall, the breed needs to be functional. If it cannot adapt and prove to be functional, it will eventually die out or become very rare..no matter how beautiful people of the time percieve it to be.

[Astraled]

They almost completely do not exist anymore in America in the shape they did fifty years ago.I think there's still hope. A quick and dirty collage featuring Jake (http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/astraled/?action=view&current=Jenkyn-nasik.jpg) (b 1998). The insets are, clockwise: Ben Rabba (b 1965), Astraled (b 1900), Nasik (b 1908) and Aulani (b 1940). I took the picture of Jake, sorry he's not stood up better :p.

These are Arabs, of course.

[columbus]

I certainly love the old Arab. I just have trouble seeing them holding their market share so people can afford to breed them. The Arabian Sporthorse Nationals gives them a better chance than many other breeds but as soon as there is more money there the fight begins.

Honestly the biggest struggle for anyone trying to breed great Sport Horses regardless of their background is how little the huge majority of horse raisers know(or care to know) about conformation, soundness and mental stability. To understand the tipping point between a leggy elegant horse and a horse with no depth of body, or strength of hock and stifle, or straightness and uneven untrue gaits. The emperor with no clothes. You have to know the faults in your own horses, know what is a beauty flaw and what is a conformation fault that limits a long working life. Warmblood or Breed they must be well conformed to stay sound and have a good mind to succeed at their sport for a long working life. PatO