movement vs temperment??

[jillya]

I'm coming off an unpredicatble, exuberant, combustable horse with awesome movement, after 2 years of this I am looking for something calmer and more enjoyable but I don't want to sacrifice movement. Has anyone found both? Which would you choose? Any breeds in particular or breeds to stay away from. Yes I am having a professional look at my choices and I will listen to them. I also have a sadly small budget.

[Miss Dior]

Holsteiner.

[FriesianX]

I've seen so many people in that same predicament. Seems the really extravagent movers are often also difficult temperments. For most of us, mind is much more important than movement!

I've had good luck with the Friesian/WB crosses - the Friesian settles the mind quite a bit, but they seem to retain much of the WB elasticity.

I've also seen some quieter WBs - seems some of the W lines tend toward better minds. Generally, a quiet and fancy moving WB will cost you some $$$. I have a friend who just bought one, Training Level, cost more than a new F-250 Pickup!

[kahjul]

Nothing specific, all I can say is be open to ANY horse. I don't believe any specific breed can be expected to give any specific thing. Possibly a certain lineage, but the breeds are so intermingled anymore that I'm not sure that is the answer. I was almost forced into looking at a draft X (coming after the loss of a very well bred and very difficult KWPN). Her movement is amazing. Everyone just drops there jaw to see her, and no matter what else I screw up on a test, she gets 8's across the board on gaits. She is quiet as the day is long on the buckle. Walk anywhere, never gets excited. Pick up the reins and she bounces into work.

[jillya]

What about Irish Crosses?

[Stacie]

G-line Hanoverians. Incredible movement, lovely temperaments. Smart and loyal. I'm serious, you will be hooked for life. Also W-line that come from World Cup. Some of the stallions are licensed for Oldenburg breeding, so there are some Oldenburgs that could have been Hanoverian registered under other circumstances.
Magic Rose Farm and Rolling Stone Farm are good places to start looking (Magic Rose's stallion is registered AWS, but is Hanoverian bred)

[slc2]

I think it's a mistake to zero in on specific breeds. I think this is an individual thing. There are individuals in all those breeds that would not be suitable, and ones that would be.

I don't think that all good movers or even very good ones are necesarily difficult to all riders. But what each rider finds difficult or easy varies alot.

One person may love a hot horse, another one finds the horse impossible.

I think the key is to identify more in detail what went wrong with the last horse, and have a very frank talk with a very good trainer, and work with them to make a better selection. I wouldn't suggest zeroing in on a specific breed.

I think that there is a bottom line though, that all horses have trade offs, though I don't think the trade offs are always 'temperament or movement', it's just never so clear.

To meet goals a rider usually has to be able to adjust to different tradeoffs in horses and it's always to some degree a tough process. good luck with the next horse.

[Foxtrot's]

You can have both - interior qualities are judged as high as exterior. Rubenstien lines are popular (I'm looking). What I hate most is a wimpy horse. Brave and bold is managable, Chicken and nervous is another. Calm, willing and bold is perfect. After an exhausting horse, I'd go for temperament. But your marks wont go up if he can't move.

[BC5098]

The biggest mistake I see people make is letting a "professional" choose their horse. 99.99% of them will choose a horse that they like. And worry about teaching the owner to ride it after the fact. This is how many of them stay in business - that and the comissions they get for buying and selling horses that the owners can't ride.

Good ones make horses look better than they are, and also make it easier for a non professional to get on and ride after they have warmed it up. They also charge a lot of money in comissions.

If you have been riding a horse you don't like for two years - you have a pretty good idea what you do not want. The solution is simple. Go find a horse you can ride - and test ride it several times. If you can get on it and find it comfortable and managemable - then any decent trainer ought to be able to help you from there.

Tell the seller that you want a horse that you can ride yourself - and then go by yourself, or with a non professional friend - and see the horse. Let the owner warm it up the first time. Go back the second, third time - and warm it up yourself. Let your friend who rides more or less the same level you do - test ride the horse. You will learn a lot more about the horse from watching another amateur ride the horse than you will a professional.

Don't not buy this horse because he is not perfect with you riding him. Buy him because you feel safe and can have fun riding and see a future with him. If you have to have professional advice - limit it to after the fact - and keep an open mind with vetting.

[slc2]

In my experience professionals don't always recommend a horse they'd like...though that can mean 1. some amount of personal taste, 2. not being in tune with what an amateur defines as 'easy' or 'quiet'...or 3. plain old making sure a student gets a horse he is terrified of riding by himself, so he will be dependent on trainer or even just give the horse to the trainer to ride and show.

Everyone will have a different idea about how many trainers are ethical and helpful in choosing a horse. Someone who understands 1, 2, and doesn't do 3, above is better.

However a 'horse the professional would like' can also represent some things that the potential buyer has to learn to work with...'what the trainer likes' is not always such a far offbase thing, for example, a horse that will do upper levels with the lightest of leg and rein aids, and is a lovely mover and will win...that horse just has to be pretty doggone energetic...just hopefully not real hot...too.....if a person very clearly says, 'i want a very quiet horse', 'a very quiet horse' may mean to a professional something very different from what it means to an amateur.

I remember a 'very quiet horse' we had that you had to sprint around the stall with it to tack it up, and if you didn't work the crap out of it every day it was climbing the walls and leaping all over...to the trainer it was a 'very quiet horse'. She wasn't kidding.

I think if a pro recommends a horse it still has to be acceptable to the rider...I think too often people fall in love with an unsuitable horse and the trainer is the one trying desperately to drag them over and consider something much more appropriate.

[sm]

my trainer would tell you temperament first, then movement.

Example: horses can have extravagent movement but be stuck because they don't have the mind for it. A less spectacular horse can be graded more mid-range there, but love the work and move up the levels.

Sure it's nice to have both, many half-lease is what you need?

[Elegante E]

If you are patient and look hard, you can find both, or at least dang fine movement and a great mind. I'd go great mind over movement any day.

[Dancinglite2]

I think it's a mistake to zero in on specific breeds. I think this is an individual thing. There are individuals in all those breeds that would not be suitable, and ones that would be.

.


I agree. Mine is both "hot" on the dam's side with anglo arab and "cooler" Hannovarian on the sires side. He can be handled by a child but still has the movement.

All that and he is a stallion to boot.

www.dancinglite.com

[jillya]

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments.

I am taking an amateur friend with me to look and then if it is serious I will bring my trainer, so there won't be any commission issues or anything like that, plus she is uber honest with me about horses. I just want to find some kind of direction to focus this one. I went to look at a horse today who turned out to be lame. It is a lot of leg work to do this and I am not all that trusting of agents in particular after some recent things I have heard and seen by people I thought I knew.

[merrygoround]

There are horses in all breeds who have both. They tend to be expensive if the owner realizes what they have.

Nevertheless there are some temperaments that are suited to only the most talented of riders, and that is where they should stay. :yes:

[Puddin Pie]

I totally agree with what BC said. Unless you are with a trainer and take a lesson every ride and don't ride on your own, then if the horse does not make you feel safe, you will either not ride or be terrified the whole time (ask me how I know this). Much better to get something you trust with correct gaits. Perhaps you won't blow them away with the scores, but think how your riding will improve and make you a better rider.

[Atigirl]

I think that it is important to really know what you want in a horse and what you don't want. It really doesn't matter if you are a beginner ammy or a talented pro. Make a list of what is important to you and what you don't want give on. For me personnally I would much rather have a horse that I can hop on when ever and where ever and have an enjoyable/safe ride. If that means that that horse only gets a six or a seven in a dressage test then "oh well". At least I am not on the "10" mover that is doing airs above the ground in the warm up arena!;)

[jillya]

Atigirl
That is what I told myself when I was riding one with airs above the ground but now that I am looking I am noticing how hard it is when you are used to something really handsome and fancy to start looking at others. Probably this is just vanity rearing it's ugly head.

[EqTrainer]

I have sold quite a few horses to people in your situation and it is always a pleasure.

You can find a horse with good, correct movement and a stellar temperament. One thing I would caution you about is the "too quiet" young horse. Young horses should act like young horses... the ones who don't either are extremely lazy, have something wrong with them, or will be exhausted by 2nd level :lol: Sure, there are exceptions but I really have learned to be leery of the bombproof 3 year olds. Oh, and sometimes.. they simply wake up

Not being afraid to look at odd crosses can prove to be fruitful. I have a Hano/QHx that is one of the nicest horse - mentally, physically and movement wise - that I have ever known. His mother, the QH, was quite spectacular. His father was Graf Genius. We gave him the extra time to mature (G-line, very late maturing) and he is a LOVELY 6 year old now.

[jillya]

And when young horses grow up they can be quite different. I bought my boy as a quiet 3 year old and will never do that again. The fitter and older he became the more exuberant etc...

[Sancudo]

I had a "too quiet" OTTB as a 3 yo. He was a resale project and I sold him a year later- he's 6 now, and just as quiet and willing as he was before. That was just him.

On the flip side, I have an insanely expressive horse that I got relatively cheap because of his temperment and reputation. He's been worth every outburst, every redhead moment. With the exception of one test, in the four years I've had him, I can absolutely count on him to get over it and lay down an amazing test. His quirkyness adds flair to his movement, and I would not trade it for an easier ride.

[CodeBon]

I would also recommend Irish crosses. Full ID's are generally a bit heavy (although there are some lovely exceptions), but halfbreds are fantastic - 'easy' temperament and generally decent movers.

I have an ex-eventer TB/ID mare I bought 5 years ago or so, and she's physically capable of 4th level at least (working 2nd level now). Mentally, the harder work won't be AS easy as it might be with something a bit more fiery, as she is a bit self-protective in the amount of effort she is willing to put out. That said, we don't waste schooling time dealing with shenanigans.

I find that the older I get, I put a MUCH higher priority on temperament.

[LookinSouth]

Honestly I really dont' know any owners of horses with decent gaits and great temperments that regret that purchase in the long run. However, I DO KNOW ammys that regret buying too much horse to get the flashy gaits :winkgrin:

I'm still young and bounce (sometimes :D) but I will always undoubtedly look for temperment before movement. I like the security of being on a safe, predictable horse that I can trust. My BO has two nice young Andalusians. One is more level headed and a faster learner than the other but not as fancy of a mover, plus she's smaller. I'd take her over the fancier one ANY DAY. I initially thought the owner was going to keep the flightier/fancier of the two but I think she's come to the realization that the smaller/less fancier mare will suit her purposes as an older ammy rider in the long run far better.:yes:

My horse consistently scores 8's on his gaits in dressage. He'll never be a 10 mover but he is extremely consistent, easy to deal with in ANY warm up scenario, a dream to handle at shows and off the property and he has a wonderful temperment other than the fact that he demands correct riding( which is fine by me). He is impressive enough to score well in the lower levels but enjoyable enough for me as an ammy.

[LookinSouth]

The biggest mistake I see people make is letting a "professional" choose their horse. 99.99% of them will choose a horse that they like. And worry about teaching the owner to ride it after the fact. This is how many of them stay in business - that and the comissions they get for buying and selling horses that the owners can't ride.

Good ones make horses look better than they are, and also make it easier for a non professional to get on and ride after they have warmed it up. They also charge a lot of money in comissions.

.


This is precisely why my friend decided to NOT enlist the help of a professional when trying horses. She didnt' have a budget above 20k and was looking for a moderately fancy, versatile but very easy/safe ammy horse for trails, hp's, some low level events/dressage and foxhunting. Instead she brought me along (and I'm no professional :lol:). We both flatted every horse she sat on and I jumped them to. We figured if WE can ride the horse with ease and it's forgiving of our ammy mistakes from the get go then most likely it's an animal that she can take home and ride now, not 6 months down the road after full training board etc...

That said, she was not seriously working with any trainer at the time and was keeping the horse at home. Obviously at a show barn the situation would have been different.

[Valentina_32926]

I own a Dutch mare with AWESOME movement (think sitting on a Harley and popping a wheeley) and amateur friendly temperment. She will "make" you ride if you want a good dressage ride, but is calm enough to trail ride, etc.

She is NOT spooky, mean, and doesn't pitch a fit when you get after her - but takes a bit longer than my less talented mare (SWB) to "get together".

Both my mares have awesome temperment and neither are dead to the leg. Dutch mare is jumper bred both side but each stallion is well known to rhow great temperment - Wolfgang by Voltaire.

Swedish mare is 1/2 Tb - sire is Raswan vs. Herkules - Herkules went to the Olympics twice (maybe 3 times?) in dressage. Basically I've found the SWBs to be calmer than many other WB breeds and I've seen some that have VERY nice movement.

Look more for bloodlines for temperment, rather than breed. Pro's can ride most anything so their well preforming horses are hotter, and less suited for Ammy's.

[Suzier]

For whatever reason I've run across a lot of hanoverians & SWBs with good calm temperaments, and a lot of traks and dutch WBs with a more challenging temperament. But I really think it varies more horse to horse than breed to breed.

Sometimes horses that have cooler, more laid-back personalities aren't as forward, so their gaits don't look as flashy at first. But after they're warmed up and you have them going forward they improve greatly.

Anyway I'd take a 10 brain over 10 movement any day. I think a horse that is a) fun to ride, and b) has a good work ethic is going to progress a lot farther than a horse with bigger gaits but that lacks the character to put them to work for you rather than against you.

[Tiki]

Bloodlines, bloodlines, bloodlines, not breeds. Donnerhall, Rubinstein, Bolero, Florestan. All beautiful movers with exceptional temperaments. Could run into a rare exception due to outside sire or dam line, but generally very reliable.

[RonaldGroen]

Movement and temperament are very close connected

[Beasmom]

Movement and temperament are very close connected

Interesting that you say that -- could you please elaborate? I have an ISR mare with the ability to produce fabulous movement, but wringing it out of her is a job. She is a horse with a "make me" kind of temperament. Regumate helps considerably -- without it I think I'd have to shoot her, she's so frustrating!

I just bought a Hannoverian gelding with the SWEETEST disposition but with some physical problems that will require a lot of physical therapy. He's a pretty mover, marred by the weakness in his hind end -- but he tries SOOOO hard!

So I have two horses with nice movement, one challenging, one cooperative -- two extremes.

I'd go for disposition/temperament any time. Buy a horse you like -- not necessarily something someone else recommends to you, unless that person really knows your preferences. Horses are expensive and time consuming and life is too short to spend your resources on an animal you don't enjoy.

Be open-minded. Your dream horse may be one of the unconventional breeds!

[sm]

I had a "too quiet" OTTB as a 3 yo. He was a resale project and I sold him a year later- he's 6 now, and just as quiet and willing as he was before. That was just him.

On the flip side, I have an insanely expressive horse that I got relatively cheap because of his temperment and reputation. He's been worth every outburst, every redhead moment. With the exception of one test, in the four years I've had him, I can absolutely count on him to get over it and lay down an amazing test. His quirkyness adds flair to his movement, and I would not trade it for an easier ride.

Huh? If he's a craftsman, goes out and gets the job done, consistently puts in his test---what is lacking in temperament??? What more are you expecting out of the horse?

[NOMIOMI1]

Im starting to learn riding and showing a horse is mostly a state of mind. A horse that I once thought was impossible is now easy because Ive been riding one that is lazy and the impossible horse doesnt require a nagging leg. THen off of the hot one after a couple bad spooks and onto the lazy one Im overjoyed at the sound mind. Then onto the one with good work ethic but not the best mover and love the attitude dont care about the movement because at the shows he/she packs me and my mistakes around the ring. Then I feel im ready for a challenge and back to the hot but nice moving horse and to the show for our hit and miss rides!!!

[Anselcat]

I'll ditto what EqTrainer said about looking at the unusual crosses, and I'll put in a plug for QH crosses and Appendix QHs. Some good minds there, usually for less than a warmblood.

Movement + temperament in a sound package on a budget will, I'm guessing, take a lot of legwork and time. Hang in there!

[LookinSouth]

Sometimes horses that have cooler, more laid-back personalities aren't as forward, so their gaits don't look as flashy at first. But after they're warmed up and you have them going forward they improve greatly.

.

This is very true. My horse is a Paint/TB cross and he can be lazy to warm up in the ring. However, once you let him stretch out, find forward with the canter and start to collect that impulsion he ends up being a very nice mover and is pretty impressive. You wouldn't guess it first glance though, that's for sure. The beginnings of our warm up is usually not too pretty but once we get it together he is quite nice.

[ESG]

my trainer would tell you temperament first, then movement.

I agree wholeheartedly with your trainer. I tell my clients the same thing. :yes:

Example: horses can have extravagent movement but be stuck because they don't have the mind for it. A less spectacular horse can be graded more mid-range there, but love the work and move up the levels.

And be more amateur friendly, because of it. :yes:

Sure it's nice to have both, many half-lease is what you need?

When you have both, you need deep, deep, deep pockets to own it. :yes:

JME. :cool:

[mbm]

i think first you have to decie what you really want and what your goals are.

if you arent wanting to do international dressage then extravegant gaits are not important and will probably hinder progress. .

I think there are certain things a dressage horse should have to be sucessful - but those things are failry broad:

a horse with good "ridability"
3 good gaits - with the canter/walk needing to be the best as the trot can be made.
an active hind end
a forward thinking horse.

the rest is all gravy. why buy a horse that is stunning that you cant ride or enjoy?

and the most importnat : be sure that you have a very good correctly educated trainer that will help bring out the best in your horse.

[MsM]

It is not like you can really narrow down your search to look at only breed X or avoid all of breed Y. And few if any horses are advertised as "great movement but crazy" or "great mind but gerbil gaits". So in the end you really have to try a lot of horses and see what works for you.
I agree with finding out what you DONT want. Is it spookiness? Bucking? Just too much energy? Can you be comfortable with a bold horse that may challenge you from time to time, but is fairly predictable? Do you mind a sensitive, insecure horse that needs confident riding? We are all better matched to different equine personalities.
What are your goals for this horse? How much training does it need to have? Can you afford a well-trained, good-minded horse with excellent gaits? If not, think about what you want for your riding when you start to make compromises. It doesnt sound like it is enough to have a horse that everyone drools over on those rare occasions when you can effectively ride the beast. I would think about what you want from your future horse and riding experiences on a daily basis as well as showing (and sometimes it is not what we used to think we wanted!).
And if you can't afford the whole package, remember, there's always the home equity loan! :winkgrin:

[Foxdale Farm]

[QUOTE=Stacie;2966603]G-line Hanoverians. Incredible movement, lovely temperaments. Smart and loyal. I'm serious, you will be hooked for life.


I can vouch for that. I own a G-line Hanoverian stallion, out of a TB mare and I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to improve the temperament. He's just out of this world in that department and the genetics for that trait are proving to be incredibly prepotent. His foals as well as many of his own half brothers and sisters by the same sire (Gonzo I) tend to inherit that awesome mind. The movement and talent are turning out to be awesome as well!

Also, just to piggyback on some of the other comments, I have to agree that it's kind of sad to see as many AA riders as I have personally seen standing on the sidelines watching the pro. ride their horses, not because that was their original intention in buying said horse but because the horse turns out to be too difficult in one way or another. At the end of the day, most people are looking for an opportunity to have a fun and enjoyable experience with their horses while still being able to compete with some measure of success.

www.foxdalefarm.us

[Tamara in TN]

I'm coming off an unpredicatble, exuberant, combustable horse with awesome movement, after 2 years of this I am looking for something calmer and more enjoyable but I don't want to sacrifice movement. Has anyone found both? Which would you choose? Any breeds in particular or breeds to stay away from. Yes I am having a professional look at my choices and I will listen to them. I also have a sadly small budget.

seems to me that "temperment" judgements are based soley on the skill of the rider on top of them... very good riders have less trouble than others with "temperment"...

my friend and I use the word "slip clutch" to describe horses that are here" and then for some reason are not "here" a second later...he slips a gear and then returns (or not :lol:) depending...

that could be one persons "bad temperment...and anothers "slip clutch"...it seems to me that the more fuss made the bigger a "show" the horse makes of himself...

maybe what I mean is that "tactful rider handler = better temperment" and in saying so, no breed or type or any such answer would do for you, as I believe that (barring conformation,injury or "slip clutches" ;) ) a horse always rises to meet his riders upper skill level

Tamara in long winded TN

[LookinSouth]

[quote=Stacie;2966603] At the end of the day, most people are looking for an opportunity to have a fun and enjoyable experience with their horses while still being able to compete with some measure of success.

www.foxdalefarm.us (http://www.foxdalefarm.us)


I agree. What's the point of owning an extravagant mover if you can't ride it and enjoy the horse yourself??

[Pely]

If you have been working with a trainer, it is extremely insulting to just go off on your own and find a horse. That trainer is going to be held responsible for your future success and ability to move up the levels. Any extra money spent on a commision is well worth it, if you are clear about what you want, and don't get carried away looking at fancy gaits. 99% of the time it is the ammy who insists on buying a horse that is wrong for them

It IS your money, but I have had many riders get all excited about horses that I know will be a disaster in the making for them. You PAY for professional advice, you should listen to that advice.

It never ceases to amaze me that people who have had one or two horses think that they know more than pros who have worked with dozens or hundreds.

Or is it that the pros don't really care because they know that rarely will they be able to find a student who will commit to a long term relationship??

[Bellfleur]

There are horses of every breed out there that have both to offer.

I personally own a Relevant daughter that is comfortable, quiet, with 3 super gaits. She will take an eight yr old little girl out hacking (alone! )but will still go the shows and be forward off the leg and easy to ride with never a spook or offering any sort of difficulty. If you ride her for more brilliance you have it, if you drop the reins and say take me around here she still looks impressive just not brilliant.

These ones with both mind and movement are a bit expensive though.

I do not know how she would end up if she had someone kicking and pulling on her every step of the way though or if she had a rider that she tried hard for and then could not please.

I also think that if you cannot trust your trainer not to want huge commissions behind your back, you should get another one. Good caring trainers are out there. Ones that do NOT want to ride / resell your new horse. I KNOW from personal experience that a TRUSTED top professional is invaluable in selecting a new horse.

Nope, they all are not to be trusted but a blanket statement not to take a professional with you seems not smart to me.

If anyone finds a formula for weeding out the ones that are not trustworthy however, please post here! My German agent on my last purchase was a huge crook but I did not find out about it until way toooooo late.

[Blaire]

It's certainly difficult to choose between movement and temperment, and sometimes just as hard to find one with both, unless of course you are able and willing to spend the big buck!

I, myself, have a big focus on temperment. When I was searching for my a new partner, I saw alot of fancy shmancy movers, but passed them up. My current horse is a good, correct mover -- not an extraordinary mover. But, his personality is what won me over. He's a one person horse and he tries desperately to please me. So, although he's not a superb mover, his personality makes up for it; we have a partnership, and when that shines through, I think that's what makes a truly special and extraordinary pair in the dressage ring.

[swgarasu]

Mind over matter.

But sometimes I think you can have both. I get along pretty well with most horses/temperments, but when you find one that really wants to work for you, riding becomes a true joy as opposed to just being fun. If you don't like hot horses, you should probably avoid them. If you don't like to have to push a horse, a hotter horse is probably for you. I think generally identifying the type of temperment you like is wise, and then try to find the best mover you can with that type of temperment.

I have an interesting thing with my current horse. In general, she is not hot. She is very sensitive and generally forward thinking, which I like. She can be spooky now and again, which I don't like, but it's occasional and she's young. She wants very much to please, but she's kind of a chicken. Overall riding her has been the most fun riding I've ever had, and things seem to come more easily to her than most other horses I've ridden. I love working her, and if we show great, if we show and do well, even better. If we don't, for me, as long I can still ride a lot and enjoy it, I'm happy. I just think no matter how talented a horse is, if you're scared to ride it, then it's pretty much the same as not having a horse at all.

[graystonefarm]

Has anyone found both? Which would you choose? Any breeds in particular or breeds to stay away from. Yes I am having a professional look at my choices and I will listen to them. I also have a sadly small budget.

Yes, there are many, but when you find a horse with the "entire package", the price is likely to be higher. If you have a limited budget, you may want to consider buying a weanling or a yearling, which is what most do. However, the market is quite soft so you may find the deal of a life time if you look hard enough. You should start with breeders. Many breeders have their own circle of friends so if one breeder may not have what you are looking for, they may know someone who does. You could start by browsing on the Breeders Forum. You are likely to find someone willing to make a sale just to make room for their 2008 foals.

Look for Rubinstein in the pedigree. The Rubinstein/Donnerhall cross has proven to be an excellent cross for talent and rideability time and time again. If you look at young unstarted horses, look closely at the mare as well as the stallion. Ask for photos, videos and inspection scores of the dam. Ask about the dam's other offspring (i.e., if any are undersaddle, show results, etc.)

[Hailey]

Another one here suggesting looking at Irish Draught/Sport Horses and crosses. I have one which I've had since she was 3 - she's 10 now. I never thought of her as a fancy mover, but she has scored 8 on gaits, as she's very correct, just not extravagant. And she finds collected work easy - she actually prefers it! I'm a pretty cautious rider, as I'm of a "certain age" - almost 55, so I need a steady, quiet mount, and she's been that way all along.

I've seen some lovely draft crosses as well, and they're certainly cheaper than a warmblood with good movement and a good, quiet mind. That combo in most young warmbloods that are already started with some training can easily cost you minimum $25,000, and that's if you're lucky.

On the plus side, though, with the economy going the way it is now, the prices may be a little better then they used to be, so you might be able to find something in your price range, though you didn't say what that was. It's just going to take you a while to find something. I sometimes think that word-of-mouth can be the best way to find a horse, rather then advertising.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Bloodlines are SO important. I know which of my youngsters will be super easy going, and which will be more sensitive, reactive. You don't have to sacrifice movement.

[vali]

I always find my own horses, although I often consult my trainer before I decide whether to buy them. I don't mind paying a "consultation" fee, but I can't afford the horses she finds. She usually points out their minor defects but comes around to thinking that they are pretty nice horses. I event, so I am looking for nice movement, good temperment, and a willingness to jump whatever (appropriate) fence I point them at. The horse I just bought is a Connemara/TB cross, and she seems to have gotten the nice things about both breeds. Nice overstep and suspension, powerful jump, and willing attitude. She's not going to be a grand prix horse, but I can sit her trot.

[AKB]

We love the Irish Draught crosses. Most of the breeders are pretty relaxed and are happy to have you ride the horse multiple times before you make your decision. They want the horse to be happy and you to refer them more clients because you are happy. If they watch you ride and don't feel you and the individual horse are a match, they can usually send you to a breeder with a horse who is a better match. This is how we got our almost 6 year old, who is schooling 2nd level, and always scores well at 1st level. We hope he will compete through 4th level, like our 20 year old Irish Draught did before he retired this year.

Check the Irish Draught website, and go and visit some breeders.

[petitefilly]

[quote=Foxdale Farm;2970317]

I agree. What's the point of owning an extravagant mover if you can't ride it and enjoy the horse yourself??


I'd sure like to hear the answer to that one! :):):):):)

Some people will do nearly anything to appear "more than they are", and delude themselves into purchasing a horse with too much "horse to handle". It is very sad.

As to the thread here, I have to say the combination is the best, a good gem of a temperament with good movement. The horse with the good temperament will try harder, and be more willing, so if he has faults they might not be so difficult that they cannot not be overcome. A horse with a lousy temperament is a chore. Simple PIA and soon you will not want to ride it anymore! So, unless you are an experienced and talented rider the temperament is the MOST important thing, you have to be able to trust that your horse will not kill you first and foremost. Being afraid to ride a bugger is not what I would call fun. :(

The second thing I would say is this: If the horse has a lousy disposition it goes out 24-7, it has a low protein, high fat food, and it is fed plenty of hay all the time. Once reality sets in many high strung horses who have been labeled "hard to get along with" turn out far better with sun-rain-wind on them 24-7. If you cannot bring yourself to do this, I suggest at least all day 12 hour life outside. It will improve any horse's work abilities. JMHO! :):):)

[slc2]

I don't think it's so bad to buy a horse one 'can't ride'. Alot of people improve that way. Some don't. Many do. I think some people don't have any capacity to stretch out and do more and change their thinking...others do. I have seen some 'really bad combination's work out very well over time.

People are always ready to criticize other riders. If they buy an easy horse they will be criticized, if they buy a difficult horse they will be criticized, but often the same criticizers won't be around when the rider has improved and learned to handle the better gaits, more activity, etc. :yes:

[Arathita]

I don't think it's so bad to buy a horse one 'can't ride'. Alot of people improve that way. Some don't. Many do. I think some people don't have any capacity to stretch out and do more and change their thinking...others do. I have seen some 'really bad combination's work out very well over time.

People are always ready to criticize other riders. If they buy an easy horse they will be criticized, if they buy a difficult horse they will be criticized, but often the same criticizers won't be around when the rider has improved and learned to handle the better gaits, more activity, etc. :yes:

In my experience, the above leads to one of three events:

1. Horse shuts down to rider level

2. Rider gets hurt

3. Trainer makes $$$ riding horse owner can't ride, owner spends $$$ taking lessons on alternate horse until skills improve to ride own horse.

The age old story is "I'll learn to ride this horse". It rarely actually happens. Only a fool is more concerned with what other people think about than than riding a horse appropriate to their skill level.

[Drsgrider]

Arathita,

I agree with you. If you cant ride the temperment or mind of the horse, what is the point in owning a riding horse? Other then, to purchase a horse you cant ride but are willing to pay a rider/trainer in hopes you will be able to ride it before it retires. Horse rider "fit" is paramount for success in or out of the show ring.

[ec412]

I agree and caution on looking at specific breeds...I have 2 hannovarians. One is dead quiet-good movement- the other super smart-a few screws loose-good movement. Both of these horses improved their movement with proper training and fitness.

I am getting high marks for "correctness" He does get good marks for gaits 7's and 8's but will never get "wows".

Look for something that suits you, but others are right- if you look for a young horse, they often can change with fitness.

[Fairview Horse Center]

If the horse has the genes to be quiet and calm, they stay that way in my experience unless they change due to bad training. The quietest horse in the world with get cranky if they are overbent in the neck to the inside, and falling out thru their shoulders by a rider that thinks bend it in the neck/hands. An older horse may just learn to compensate and go incorrectly, but they will then lose their movement. A young horse also has to be reminded to stay "in front of the leg". If ridden at the jog, they can develop resistance to truly going forward, and that can cause all kinds of dangerous behaviors.

[Timex]

i don't care how incredible the movement is, if you can't ride the damn thing because it's a flippin maniac, what's the point? i HAD a fancy Holstiener.....notice, i said HAD. he was a loon. he went down the road, and i got myself an awesome Thoroughbred. does she have the same movement? no, but she's not bad, and didn't try to kill me. which is key.

[Fairview Horse Center]

i don't care how incredible the movement is, if you can't ride the damn thing because it's a flippin maniac, what's the point? i HAD a fancy Holstiener.....notice, i said HAD. he was a loon. he went down the road, and i got myself an awesome Thoroughbred. does she have the same movement? no, but she's not bad, and didn't try to kill me. which is key.

The shame of it is, that people USED to ride TBs, and move to the Warmbloods when they wanted something less sensitive and reactive. Now the opposite is true. Many are no longer "Warm" bloods.

[slc2]

I don't know anyone who went to warmbloods because they wanted something less sensitive. Everyone has different reasons, but in my experience people get warmbloods for their movement and balance and athleticism, which have all been selected over the years with the requirements of the FEI sports (show jumping, dressage and driving) in mind. I've never found them to be less sensitive, either. Different in some ways, but less sensitive? More tolerant? No. These are individual, not group, traits.

They aren't all difficult to sit, but some are. SOme horses are difficult to sit because they have no natural balance, when they get heavy on the forehand they tense up their backs and are hard to sit. Or people don't know how to supple them and they drop their hind legs to the ground without being supple and that makes them hard to sit. Or they just didn't select a supple springy horse.

And I maintain, and will maintain...the only way to improve one's riding beyond a point is to get a more challenging horse. But challenging in what way? No, not a loon. That's just a big problem, you're misunderstanding me, I don't mean that. And 'buying a challenging horse' doesn't necessarily mean buying a horse that's nuts.

I'm talking about a horse that is a better mover than your last horse, that stretches you to improve your seat and technique. I am not talking about buying a lunatic. I am talking about buying the next logical step.

The horse MAY be more sensitive, MAY be more responsive. That may come at a point in a rider's development.

A really fabulous horse that wants to really throw himself into his work and make a lot of self carriage, that responds to very light aids, is going to also respond to sounds in the environment and mistakes his rider makes. Very few horses that are sensitive to every little aid and that go go go by themselves DON'T respond to noises in the environment, mistakes or inconsistencies in the rider, etc. Dallos says every time he is asked that Aktion is like that, hot as a pistol off the leg, very ambitious to self carry, yet absolutely fearless and unshakeable concentration. That's a rare horse.

The perfect dressage horse is a combination of being a 'balance horse' and a 'power horse'. Balance has its advantages, power has its advantages. The ideal temperament for a horse depends on the person...the hot as a pistol horse may make an amateur uncomfortable and a pro might just love him.

Alot of horses are only 'power horses', and people often select one of them when they go to find their first nice horse - horses with a longer, more sweeping stride, that 'big booming trot'. That can be a very hard horse to ride and create some balance in (most people put on a sharper bit and shorten the neck), there certainly are warmbloods out there like that, but there are horses out there like that in any breed. It can also be a hard horse to supple. Every rider has the typical problems wiith that kind of horse. Their seat moves, their legs move, their hands move, they get tossed around like a potato in a sack (and people say they can't sit the trot, LOL).

Some horses are only 'balance horses'...little stride, in a nice neat package, easy to get them to pat around in a little box. Harder to get them to stretch out and be powerful, many will never have the total power and the total stretch. Deceptively easy feeling to ride (and people say the rider sits really well, LOL).

The ideal dressage horse is like an accordian. He has power and balance. He has fabulous range of motion, flexibility, suppleness, and a natural rhythm. He's hot off the aids, ignores the distractions in the environment, and tolerates everything. There are not that many horses like that.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Older type Warmbloods are definitely known for being less reactive.

[Cowgirl]

I have both movement and temperment with my young horse. But I do think it depends alot on personal taste what you wish to ride. I like a sensitive, hotter, forward going horse and I bought my mare, as a baby, based on breeding that produces both dressage movement and a sensitive, hotter temperment. In fact, in the articles written about this line (on my mare's mother side), which is more old style in build (so it does not hold that old style build means quiet), they talk about the fact that these horses can be difficult youngsters due to the sensitivity and hotness, but once they trust their rider, they fight for them and give almost more than they have and I enjoy that type of temperment. Riders either love or hate these horses, so it's personal taste. On my mare's sire side, they are also hot and sensitive, but very easy horses on the ground (and she got that also). In fact, that stallion got a 10 for temperment in his stallion grading (and this goes to show that a 10 for temperment may not mean "non spooky" LOL!). I got exactly what I wanted in terms of temperment and movement.

With prominent dressage lines and prepotent stallions, a lot is known about what temperment and movement is likely to be produced. I would not like riding a horse with a more phlegmatic temperment, but some people love that type as being very quiet and easy to take places. You can research this and it will help guide you in your purchase. Where you get into more of unchartered territory is when you buy crosses (say warmblood/tb crosses) or from young stallions whose produce is not yet known.

Also, check out Carl Hester's books. He talks in them about some "tests" he does with young horses to let him see if they have what he wants. Of course, what Carl wants may not be what you want!

[FriesianX]

I don't think it's so bad to buy a horse one 'can't ride'. Alot of people improve that way. Some don't. Many do. I think some people don't have any capacity to stretch out and do more and change their thinking...others do. I have seen some 'really bad combination's work out very well over time.

People are always ready to criticize other riders. If they buy an easy horse they will be criticized, if they buy a difficult horse they will be criticized, but often the same criticizers won't be around when the rider has improved and learned to handle the better gaits, more activity, etc. :yes:


I think MOST people who buy a horse they "can't ride" don't realize they can't ride it. They rely on a professional's opinion, or get wrapped up in the excitement of purchasing a new horse. I've seen several people do this, and in every case, they didn't realize they couldn't ride the horse - not something they did on purpose. And in almost all situations, it ends up in disappointment for owner. Not criticizing anyone here - I don't think it reflects poorly on the buyer so much as on the pro(s) who recommend the horse. There are some very talented, but VERY sensitive horses out there - not good for the average rider!

[Kairoshorses]

I'm a believer in the bloodlines now. I bred my pretty anglo-trak mare who is quiet but has a nasty habit of bucking when she's frustrated to Routinier specifically because of his temperment (well, and the fact that he has that Rubenstein/Rhodiment background)....and I have the most pliable, trainable, well-behaved great moving yearling I've EVER encountered. He's amazing. I've had other babies out of this mare, and this is the most sensible one I've ever had (and the best looking). So it can happen, but I don't think breeders breed for temperment and trainability enough.

[Timex]

The shame of it is, that people USED to ride TBs, and move to the Warmbloods when they wanted something less sensitive and reactive. Now the opposite is true. Many are no longer "Warm" bloods.

My reasoning for getting the TB had nothing to do with breed, or sensitivity. The TB is MUCH more reactive than the WB (who happened to be by a WB stud, out of a TB mare, fwiw) and a million times more sane. Not being a total a**hole was the selling point there! ;)

[vanheimrhorses]

i have found the G line of the hanoverian to be very nice horses, steer clear of Inshallah noted to being hot Dutch WB, Trak of good bloodlines are quiet and affectionate horses, percheron TB crosses are incredible and so are halflingers if you are smaller

[jillya]

ok her's a curve ball, what about lipizzans?

[NRB]

ok her's a curve ball, what about lipizzans?

In a very gross generalization tend to find collection easy and extension difficult. (er maybe I should have written lengthenings) The various lines can differ in temperment, (Favory vs Sliglavy vs Maestoso ) but in general a horse bred for airs above the ground can't be hot or nutty. Tend to be nice stoic little beasties. However my perspective is one of observer not rider/trainer.

[FriesianX]

Along the Lippy line, I'd also throw out the suggestion (hehehehe), look at a Friesian cross :D Friesians also tend to throw a nice mind - then pick a cross that is more athletic and elastic, and you may end up with the best of both worlds...

[texang73]

I'm coming off an unpredicatble, exuberant, combustable horse with awesome movement, after 2 years of this I am looking for something calmer and more enjoyable but I don't want to sacrifice movement. Has anyone found both? Which would you choose? Any breeds in particular or breeds to stay away from. Yes I am having a professional look at my choices and I will listen to them. I also have a sadly small budget.

Very interesting question. Since I am used to OTTBs, I am used to the exuberant horse. That said, my new OTTB is very sane and fairly predictable, but exuberant, yet also has very good movement.

I don't think you should have to choose between temperment or movement, I think you can find both in the right horse. I see hundreds of TB every weekend, and they are all very different.

[LookinSouth]

I don't think you should have to choose between temperment or movement, I think you can find both in the right horse. I see hundreds of TB every weekend, and they are all very different.


I agree. I really don't get where TB's get this rap of being nutty. It seems this notion gets perpetuated by people that are not that experienced with TB's to begin with or can't ride a sensitive horse. Sensitive and light does not translate to nutty.

I have yet to ride a really nutty TB. Yes they are forward and sensitive, many need regular work, which I like, I HATE a dull, lazy horse. Often you can't just pluck them out of the pasture once a week and expect a quiet jog/lope. For this reason they are not always suited for a the weekend warrior pleasure rider.

But for the most part there is a reason why TB's tend to be great horses for XC, trailriding etc.. They generally are very sane, smart and forward animals.
Especially homebred TB's. You really can't go wrong with them if you can't afford a WB. My old TB was a Canadian TB who raced minimally and evented for a number of years. Sanest, safest horse I ever sat on but he was FORWARD.

Appendix's are nice too for people on a budget. My horse is a APHA/TB cross and he is a lovely, forgiving amateur horse with a great work ethic, super mind and has decent movement too.