Possible explanation for so many IR horses?

[CookiePony]

Recalling Deltawave's "hothouse flowers" thread, I wonder if this article gets at a possible reason we have noticed more metabolic issues. If pesticide exposure affects people, why not horses?

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jan2008/2008-01-25-04.asp\

First two paragraphs below...

Type 2 Diabetes May be Linked to Pesticide Exposure

CAMBRIDGE, UK, January 25, 2008 (ENS) - Cambridge University scientists are advocating more research into the possible links between environmental pollution and type 2 diabetes, the most common form of the disease. At least 171 million people worldwide suffer from diabetes, according to estimates by the World Health Organization.

In today's edition of the British medical journal "Lancet," Drs. Oliver Jones and Julian Griffin highlight the need to research the possible link between persistent organic pollutants, POPs, and insulin resistance, which can lead to adult onset diabetes.

[Katy Watts]

I don't think we need look that far afield. Google : "grass sugar" and look at all the new varieties of grass specially selected for high sugar content.
Know that improved species of grass have taken over most the good grazing land in the world, pushing out the low sugar native species even where they have not been planted purposely.

Then, check out the Off Course forum for the thread: As I'm getting older I want shorter horses..anyone else?

Improved grass, more pony and other easy keeper breeds, owned by women with empty nest syndrome who like to feed 'the very best'. That'll do it.
Katy

[cyberbay]

Add on: less exercise. Horses and people were in movement a lot more than today (no BBs to type to!!) and probably ate, as already mentioned, unadulterated foods. Of the two, though, it's the higher-glycemics that are more of a culprit than less exercise.

[Ghazzu]

I'm voting with Katy.
It's more the content of the diet than the contaminants in the diet.

[deltawave]

This is a perfect opportunity to wield Occam's razor: (paraphrased)

"Given the choice between two (or more) causes of something, the simplest, least complicated, and most obvious cause is virtually always the correct one".

We eat too much, we don't exercise, the stuff we DO eat is stuffed with sugar, and we wonder why diabetes is on the rise?? Oh yeah, it's mysterious toxins. Mmmm hmmm.

If 170 million people worldwide suffer from diabetes, that's probably because at LEAST that many people worldwide suffer from what is lovingly known in medical circles as "biscuit poisoning". Or, in the immortal words of one of my partners, overheard by me because he likes to yell, "There's no mystery here, Mr. So-and-so. You eat too &$*#@ much!". :lol:

It's WAAAY too easy to be a human in this day and age. Or a horse. We are designed by nature to forage, be too cold, be too hot, starve for a while now and then, eat when we can (not when we like) and move ALL THE TIME. I don't know ANYONE with a lifestyle like that. Not that starvation is a good thing, but "lean" and "hungry" are not part of the 21st century, First World lifestyle unless we make an effort to make it so.

[Katy Watts]

QUOTE=Ghazzu;2966506]
It's more the content of the diet than the contaminants in the diet.[/QUOTE]

Now I am not insinuating that the OP is obese or in denial. But...those people are out there in plenty. Got a few in my own family, because carb intolerance runs strong. I have tendancies myself. Last time I was in my health food store, there was this morbidly obese women, who had to walk with a cane, on the verge of not being able to walk at all. filled up the whole isle. She was buying up organic ice cream and cookies and bread and chips. Well, duh. That's not going to fix your problem. But so nice to have pesticides to blame for your condition. There's plenty of quacks out there who will sell you expensive treatments to 'detox' your body and give you more time to deny your sugar addiction.

Carb addiction is a real, physiological condition, with withdrawal symtoms that make the addict quite ill if they try to get off the sugar. The 3 days it takes to go into ketosis and start using other forms of calories are hell. I have had training as a drug abuse counselor, and I'm here to tell you that carb addicts exhibit all the same denial and excuses that crack addicts have. We are now passing on the syndrome to our horses. I've had people at my seminars say 'but grain is all my horse has to live for'. And these were horses with chronic laminitis. If eating is the only good thing in your horses life, and it is the cause of chronic laminitis, I say shoot the poor SOB now. Or find something else for him to live for. Food will not alleviate our guilt from not spending enough time with our horses, sharing a REAL life outside their pen or stall.
Katy

[hundredacres]

Katy, you are (as usual) so right. Our poulation is fat. Our dogs are fat. Our cats are fat. Our horses are fat. It's not quite that simple - but it's all relative.

[I'm EBO]

You definitely have to consider Katy's information as one of the causes. We can't disregard, however, that contaminants definitely contribute to ill health in people, small animals, and horses. And by "contaminants", I don't just mean recognized toxins.

Until recently, animal parts were used in feed for horses and livestock. The animal parts (providing they didn't come from road kill) came from animals that were fed anti-biotics and hormones for at least a third of their lives The anti-biotics are fed because CORN is not a natural feed for cattle, so sickens them. But that's what they get in the feed lots, and lately, in the dairies before they go to slaughter.) WE eat those animals (plus the anti-biotics and hormones) unless we go to the trouble and expense to find grass fed and finished beef and other livestock. Or raise our own. Or sucessfully hunt.

How many of us lost pets because of melamine added to pet foods? Do you believe this contaminant and others were only used in dog and cat food? Me neither.

Whether it's new, high sugar grasses or contaminated feed (and water and soil) or a combination of these forces, our fingers need to be pointed at the USDA and FDA, and the administrations that direct their policies. Keep that in mind for the new administration, and demand that it's not going to be business as usual.

In my editing for crap spelling, I took the time to read the responses I missed while I was typing. I do agree that lack of activity is a BIG cause of obesity --> Diabetes 2 and carb addiction. But you do see lots of WBs and Qhs who are WORKED, yet develop IR.

And we can't overlook advances in veterinary diagnosis. How many of you remember a horse that was on and off lame all of its life with no apparent cause?

[Appassionato]

And we can't overlook advances in veterinary diagnosis. How many of you remember a horse that was on and off lame all of its life with no apparent cause?

Agreed, and mostly with this statement! My newly diagnosed Cushing's and possibly IR horse is NOT fat. Never has been. Add to it all that mine grazes his concentrates...where's the insulin spike from that?

While I certainly agree that many IR horses are FAT and unhealthy, I really do wonder for some if the cause was elsewhere, or is it the veterinary advances? Or owner's initiative? Most people would have put down a horse that sunk like mine. Kind of like the idea that when a horse broke it's leg, the only option was to put it down. Today some horses are just fine after surgery (of course depending on the break).

[rcloisonne]

How many of us lost pets because of melamine added to pet foods?
I would say very, very few. I don't know of a single person who lost an animal to this.

But you do see lots of WBs and Qhs who are WORKED, yet develop IR.
And I'll bet they're ridden less than 2 hours/day, are heavily grained, fed large amounts of high sugar hay and get minimal turnout (if at all).

But let's blame it on the pesticides...

[BuddyRoo]

I think awareness is a big part of it.

But why is it occurring more? I mean, people fed sweet feed for years. And didn't test hay, and left horses out to pasture.....

The biggest difference I see is that horses are not worked like they used to be.

The horses with the highest propensity for IR like pasos, morgans, arabs, qh's??? Well, historically, they were raised in fairly arid climates where food was scarce and they were ridden a TON! They could (and still do) live off air practically.

To me, that's the biggest thing. We've moved horses from hard daily work to an hour of riding 3-5 times per week.

Of course, overfeeding plays into it. But if the horses were just worked more, that would help tremendously. With less feed and more consistent exercise, many IR horses can actually start to regulate their blood sugar better without the big spikes.

My mare was in bad shape this fall after an entire summer off due to my broken arm. I was able to move her to a new barn where the feed was more controlled and start riding her more and voila--the pounds came off and now we're just maintaining. But it takes a lot of work. And that's the last piece. I think we see a lot of IR due to pure laziness. People who aren't interested in doing what it takes.

[I'm EBO]

Changing feed helped my IR horse go from a glucose reading of 100 + to a 64 with corresponding insulin readings. When my horse came to me, he was recovering from being put back into work too soon after a bad founder. He was being fed untested timothy and orchard grass. After several false starts, I put him on alfalfa and Bermuda, plus low carb pelleted feed, beet pulp, and adjusted minerals.

He was an upper level dressage horse who was ridden, hard, at least two hours every day, and as you know, upper level dressage is difficult for horses. He's now a couch potato (like me), but continues to do well.

Maybe the only true answer is: "It just depends."

rcloisonne--we lost one dog. The vets who treated him told me that they had quite a number of dogs and cats who were nqr, were mysteriously ill, or died during that period. Not unrelated, we had been feeding the brands that were subsequently recalled, and even had the packages with the specific stamped dates in our house when the recalls were announced.

[deltawave]

Insulin resistance and Diabetes isn't that simple. Not all diabetics are fat. Heck, not all diabetics are insulin resistant! (type I) We can't cram every single horse, person or whatever into the same little pigeonhole.

Maybe the only true answer is: "It just depends."


Hear, hear. If we had more of an appreciation for how utterly complex this kind of stuff is, we'd see a lot less crazy talk about such-and-such a nutrient/toxin/management strategy being the "key" to this or that ailment, etc.

[enjoytheride]

I also wonder how many IR horses are actually officially vet diagnosed with IR. I have noticed on this BB that IR, EPM, and "evilshoesyndrome" are the three most common suggestions for a lame horse. No need to get a vet out, someone on a BB has diagnosed for you.

Does it seem more common now because it's a real diagnosed problem or is it simply the popular problem of the day?

[deltawave]

I agree that there is a LOOOOOT of apparent self-diagnosis going on. EPSM, IR/Cushing's, ulcers, etc. are all diagnosed with very precise diagnostic tests, but I wonder how many horses are diagnosed casually by their owners? Not much harm in contemplating a diagnosis, and not much harm in making changes based on a presumptive diagnosis, but these ailments do seem to be awfully prevalent among BB horses. :)

[irishcas]

Why can't all of these issues contribute :)

I agree though that some are more than others. Nothing fails with one thing, our bodies, animals bodies, nature all have fail safe procedures built in. It is when there are multiple failures that we have an issue.

I think Pesticides are a huge problem, but I also think our diets are an issue.

My animals had no chance of Melamine poisoning as I feed them all a species specific custom diet.

The dogs eat whole raw chicken, rabbit, goat, deer, duck, pork, fish etc. Supplemented with vitamins and veggies.

The cats eat all raw fish, rabbit, chicken, with supplements.

The horses eat Rice Bran/Flax Seed with supplements mixed in.

I try to eat as naturally as possible too. I'm lucky I can go to one farmer for my eggs and milk, another for a cow and another for chicken, rabbit and duck.

I have entertained the idea of hunting some of my own food, but there is no way I can shoot a deer at this time in my life. Maybe if I were starving but so far I don't have too.

Recently I've stopped eating meat and fish so we will see how long that lasts :)

Corn is prevalent in our diet whether you can see it or not. For an interesting read check out Michael Pollan's Omnivore's Dilemma.

I think exercise is critical too just as it is with us.

Well my 2 cents, and I am glad that CookiePony posted the article. But do we need scientists to tell us that Pesticides are harmful :D Hellooooo (no offense CP ;))

Regards,

[hundredacres]

I also wonder how many IR horses are actually officially vet diagnosed with IR. I have noticed on this BB that IR, EPM, and "evilshoesyndrome" are the three most common suggestions for a lame horse. No need to get a vet out, someone on a BB has diagnosed for you.

Does it seem more common now because it's a real diagnosed problem or is it simply the popular problem of the day?

LOL..."evilshoesyndrome"...I love that one (it's so true!)

I've had one horse (not mine but in my care) diagnosed by my vet - he did a series of blood tests and he called it "metobolic syndrome" not IR. Treatment was the same though, and the horse went on pergolide(sp). The other horse he just looked at - he's 41 inches tall and 60-some inches round...and he said "Let's just say that he is"....and so we have assumed he is to be on the safe side. But honestly, after knowing and seeing the signs of one (diagnosed by my vet), and the other which we are assuming is (or will be) I wouldn't hesitate to diagnose my own again. Changing the diet sure won't hurt anything....

But yes, I think it seems more common because we are reading about it on BB's. We hear(read) 1000x more stories on BB's than the days when he had to *gasp* talk to our neighbors and such ;).

[cyberbay]

Well, I think it all starts with what you put in your (horse's) mouth. I agree with KatyW: Sugar/carb addiction is indeed a real thing -- I know very few people who happily turn away from sweets. Maybe other posters here know plenty of people who can dismiss the opportunity to grab that cookie without thinking twice. Much of the time, in my experience, it's a conscious decision to say 'no.' Speaking somewhat simply, carbs beget hunger for more carbs. Most foods that come in plastic wrap or a box or a jar have sweeteners added to them. It's, honestly, unbelievable. It's far easier to be sick in this society than it is to be well, and what is sitting on our supermarket shelves is a large contributor to this malaise (no pun!).

Exercise is fine, but as the solution to moderating the deleterious side of carb intake, do we know that it will arrest the hormonal meltdown that comes with excessive intake of carbs? Don't know myself. At this point, I'm saying 'doubt it.'

You'll also find my other foot in the environmental poisoning camp. It's also just a matter of ethics and respect for the world that keeps us alive. Humans (or governments under cloak of law) have been blithely poisoning our 'nest' since the dawn of time, but with our population at critical mass and the indiscriminate use of chemical substances, things are in a bad way...

[EqTrainer]

The factors I run across the most frequently are (and not in this order!):

1) lack of proper deworming leading to the horses inability to use the nutrients in the provided diet, this includes daily dewormer use without proper purge deworming based on WEIGHT

2) use of corticosteroids creating an artificially increased cortizol level in horses who are in chronic pain and *already* have a raised cortizol level

3) previous starvation

4) the common practice of MORE grain and LESS hay, which leads to insulin spikes which is something that horses are simply not designed to handle (meant to graze free choice, eating a little all the time)

This is just a brief overview.. I actually deal with very few overweight IR horses, mostly thin/emaciated ones. I think I get them LONG after the fat phase, and when they are basically shutting down and getting ready to croak.

Environmental toxins may very well play a role, who knows? What about fly spray? :lol:

I also think someday they will prove that Cushings can be provoked by an sustained, elevated cortizol level.

Regarding the prevelance of IR in our day and age, I do believe there is more of it.. because we inject our horses to keep them working while the trainer is calculating how much dex the horse can have and not get popped on a drug test, because we underdeworm because horses got bigger and dewormer tubes didn't, because we don't pull their shoes and give them the winter off anymore (stress) instead we go to WEG all winter.. because a lot of IR horses have actually been rescues who were starved (try fixing THAT metabolism, it's not always easy!) and YES, because horses overeat AND are underworked.

It is interesting to note tho' that I can maintain IR horses on turnout and no other exercise, on 24/7 hay and pasture, so forced exercise is not necessarily a big player.. stall time is, tho'. :no:

[deltawave]

Cortisol is the ultimate double-edged sword. But I do not believe that the minuscule amount of corticosteroid that gets into the "system" in the process of joint injections is enough to do much harm. In fact, my STRONG suspicion would be that there is probably more cortisol generated as a response to pain than there would be by giving a small amount of steroids to RELIEVE the pain. Widespread articular (joint) injections of steroids in humans (serial, multiple sites, multiple courses) does not appear to affect the pituitary-adrenal axis even slightly. Of course none of this is possible to measure in horses, AFAIK. :) Still, I would guess that injected steroids play a VERY small role in the whole IR thing. Most Cushingoid/IR horses I've seen are FAT pasture puffs who don't do enough work to warrant joint injections!

[CookiePony]

The biggest difference I see is that horses are not worked like they used to be.


What was the hard work that horses used to do, and when did they do it? I'm a historian, so my antennae go up when I hear "used to be"-- I want to know where and when. Does the end of this period correspond with the rise in IR cases?

I don't think that the only reason for a spike in numbers of IR horses is pesticides. I saw SUPER SIZE ME, I'm well aware of the more calories/less exercise diet that lots of folks are on, and I personally know of many pasture potato horses. BUT... could we entertain this possibility, that pesticides are a contributing factor? If so, what are the ramifications of this? Should we continue to spray our pastures for weeds and use certain fly repellents?

And certainly I'm addicted to carbs... why else would I call myself CookiePony? :D

[Bayou Roux]

This is a perfect opportunity to wield Occam's razor: (paraphrased)

"Given the choice between two (or more) causes of something, the simplest, least complicated, and most obvious cause is virtually always the correct one".

We eat too much, we don't exercise, the stuff we DO eat is stuffed with sugar, and we wonder why diabetes is on the rise?? Oh yeah, it's mysterious toxins. Mmmm hmmm.

If 170 million people worldwide suffer from diabetes, that's probably because at LEAST that many people worldwide suffer from what is lovingly known in medical circles as "biscuit poisoning". Or, in the immortal words of one of my partners, overheard by me because he likes to yell, "There's no mystery here, Mr. So-and-so. You eat too &$*#@ much!". :lol:

It's WAAAY too easy to be a human in this day and age. Or a horse. We are designed by nature to forage, be too cold, be too hot, starve for a while now and then, eat when we can (not when we like) and move ALL THE TIME. I don't know ANYONE with a lifestyle like that. Not that starvation is a good thing, but "lean" and "hungry" are not part of the 21st century, First World lifestyle unless we make an effort to make it so.

Amen, deltawave. By the way, will you pleeeeeeeeeeze run for president?

[deltawave]

Well, horses used to be ridden to hounds from October until April, twice a week for 4-6 hours. Or they used to be kids' mounts--ridden from the moment school let out until the supper bell rang. Or they did farm work, pulled a carriage, etc. etc. And even if the "mystique" of the working horse isn't altogether accurate, let's not forget that HUMAN medicine, never mind veterinary medicine didn't recognize "insulin resistance" half a century ago. Not to mention the fact that if a horse was not sound, not "pulling its weight", so to speak, or in any way sickly, it was pretty easy to dispose of it and just get another one.

Pesticides as a cause of disease? Sure it's plausible. But other than general fear of chemicals, what is the proposed mechanism, exactly? Where are the data? What is the hypothesis, even, other than "chemicals are scary and horses are getting IR". Again, we didn't even IDENTIFY the term/condition until a couple of decades ago. And I remember fat, cresty horses who never, ever shed their coats standing in pastures back in the 1970s. They were horses that never got used. Chicken? Or egg?

Bayou Roux, good GOD no! I love my country too much to go into politics. :) I would never, EVER win an election. Don't have even a particle of tact and can't shmooze to save my life. :p

[SLW]

Another reason we see IR in horses is that horses live longer now. We vaccinate them against diseases and deworm them regularly.

Doubt the pesticides contribute to IR in any form.

[EqTrainer]

Cortisol is the ultimate double-edged sword. But I do not believe that the minuscule amount of corticosteroid that gets into the "system" in the process of joint injections is enough to do much harm. In fact, my STRONG suspicion would be that there is probably more cortisol generated as a response to pain than there would be by giving a small amount of steroids to RELIEVE the pain. Widespread articular (joint) injections of steroids in humans (serial, multiple sites, multiple courses) does not appear to affect the pituitary-adrenal axis even slightly. Of course none of this is possible to measure in horses, AFAIK. :) Still, I would guess that injected steroids play a VERY small role in the whole IR thing. Most Cushingoid/IR horses I've seen are FAT pasture puffs who don't do enough work to warrant joint injections!

Couple of thoughts here.

You might be surprised at the frequency of use of corticosteroids IA in horses competeing at high levels. It is routine in many barns to do hocks, coffin joints, pasterns and stifles as often as every 6 months. And unfortunately, as bad medicine as it is, vets who deal with certain types of owners will chase a lameness w/multiple injections into the same joint over a short period of time.

A good example is a horse that I personally know (and now own) who had his hocks injected (uppers and lowers), his SI injected, his coffin joints and his pasterns ALL IN ONE DAY. They repeated the hocks in thirty days and the coffin joints not long after. THEN, they did his hocks AGAIN in 60 days.

This is not as uncommon as one might think, hope or wish for it to be.

Then you have the trainers, who on top of this, are routinely using dex.

This is par for the course in many show barns. It is par for the course for many vets to offer joint injections with corticosteroids with little diagnostics and with alarming frequency. I know of very few people whose vets told them the pros and cons of joint injections unless asked very specifically.

FWIW, I am not ANTI joint injection. I think they have a valuable role in controlling inflammation. I do wish people were made aware of the potential side effects, long and short term. I do wish vets weren't so quick to offer them but I understand that for most people, they want their horse sound NOW and will go to a vet who will do it NOW if the first one wont.

Now, as for how much gets outside the joint? It is widely acknowledged that the lower hock you inject shares with the upper, and the stifle, etc. etc. as the positive effect can be seen in the rest of the horse. When questioning vets about this exact issue, I have had many tell me that I can expect a certain amount of systemic effect. My husband was told the same thing about his knee. Has there been a study done? I doubt it :lol:

[BuddyRoo]

Well....horses USED TO BE transportation for people. Horses USED TO BE a means of doing work. Horses were used from sun up to sun down.

I still know people who use horses every day like that--primarily on ranches. But my point was...these breeds like the QH's and old style Morgans and Arabs and Pasos and such who seem to be more prone to IR were used much more and typically lived in less lush land where, if out to "pasture" they had to cover a lot of ground to get much decent forage.

[Bayou Roux]

Bayou Roux, good GOD no! I love my country too much to go into politics. :) I would never, EVER win an election. Don't have even a particle of tact and can't shmooze to save my life. :p

But that's why we need you! ;)

Sorry, I'll stop hijacking...

[deltawave]

There have been studies done in humans. The extra-articular effects of steroids injected into ARTHRITIC joints is pretty small, other than perhaps in the first 24 hours. With inflammatory arthritis it is slightly more. So "widely acknowledged" does not necessarily correlate with "well researched" in this case.

It's one of those not-quite-clear things. Again, serum cortisol levels are SHARPLY elevated when there is pain or trauma. So steroid injections could conceivably LOWER serum cortisol levels if used JUDICIOUSLY and APPROPRIATELY for the correct indications. The examples of horses being serially injected here, there and everywhere are obviously outliers in the realm of "reasonable use".

To summarize: steroids must be used with a HEALTHY respect for their "pros" and "cons". They are neither poison nor panacea.

[EqTrainer]

I am usually leery of extrapolating from humans to horses. I don't even like to do it animal to animal.. I always think about how much Ace it takes to sedate a dog, versus a horse :lol: to remind myself to not do this.

I deal mostly in show horses so I see a different world than a lot of people do. I see a lot of IR in these horses. And the horses are not fat, and they are not eating sweet feed, and they get plenty of work. In fact, they get what people consider to be the best possible care in all ways - but here they are, skinny and IR. I gotta believe corticosteroids are a player.

Yes, they can be a wonderful tool. But managing a horses pain needs to be more comprehensive than whipping out a needle to be successful in the long run

[Lookout]

Few of the horses I encounter get to graze 24/7 on lush grass or any kind of grass. The ones that do get grass are limited to part of the day because of the pressure of getting every horse out on limitied turnout. Yet many of them show signs of if not IR, then laminitic tendencies. I think it has more to do with the unnatural way they are fed usually twice a day, with hard concentrates, which causes insulin spikes and drops. It may be true that horses have been fed this way for decades without developing IR but I think the quality of commercial grains is much worse than it used to be. Not all the mfgr's fault necessarily but goes to the greater question of environmental pollutants, degraded soils, additives, GM content, and so on, and I wouldn't be surprised if the added sugar content were higher than in decades past.

I agree on the theory of cortisol/Cushings being proven in the future.

The factors I run across the most frequently are (and not in this order!):

4) the common practice of MORE grain and LESS hay, which leads to insulin spikes which is something that horses are simply not designed to handle (meant to graze free choice, eating a little all the time)


I also think someday they will prove that Cushings can be provoked by an sustained, elevated cortizol level.

[CookiePony]

I gotta believe corticosteroids are a player.


OK... to keep pushing this inquiry... what do you make of the fact that some pesticides are endocrine disruptors (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/medical_notes/449303.stm)? Could the combination of stressing horses' endocrine systems with corticosteroids and hormone-mimicking pesticides make a horse predisposed to IR?

Just theorizing here... we can never know chicken or egg for sure. The point for me is that this is a risk that might be worth evaluating.

[Katy Watts]

Lets not get all riled up about products that are no longer used. DDT, and a lot of the other nasties, have been banned in the US for decades. The EPA has mixed reviews, but truely, lots of chemicals still used in other countries have been banned here for a long time. I was surprised at what was available in farm supply stores in New Zealand.
Pesticide registration is not a willy nilly process. If we're going to discuss pesticide dangers, could we cite websites a bit more scientific than newspapers?

[Daydream Believer]

I personally have wondered for some time if the increased use of steriods was related to the increases in EPM? I had a pony develop an severe attack of EPM after having his hocks injected...and we are pretty sure that the steriods caused a depression of his immune system and allowed the protozoa to grow quickly and catastrophically. I cannot see why there would not be any number of negative long term effects to the use of drugs like this that we do not even understand yet.

[simply kim]

I think that this is a great topic and I suspect that there are lots of answers for the increase in IR in horses and the explosion of diabetes in humans not just in our country but worldwide.Do you think all are fat? Not so. Look up Polycystic Ovary Syndrome .1 human female in 10 has it. Wonder how many cystic ovaries are in our mares.:confused:

[deltawave]

As venerable as the BBC may be, I wouldn't interpret their information as necessarily scientific or factual. :) "Likely to be", "thought to be", and "linked to" is not the same thing as KNOWN TO BE, particularly when these phrases are found in journalistic writing.

Not saying there aren't potentially POTENT effects of pesticides, etc. Just reminding everyone of old Occam (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html) and his shaving implement. :)

[Ghazzu]

Wonder how many cystic ovaries are in our mares.:confused:

Very few.

[grayarabpony]

This is a perfect opportunity to wield Occam's razor: (paraphrased)

"Given the choice between two (or more) causes of something, the simplest, least complicated, and most obvious cause is virtually always the correct one".

We eat too much, we don't exercise, the stuff we DO eat is stuffed with sugar, and we wonder why diabetes is on the rise?? Oh yeah, it's mysterious toxins. Mmmm hmmm.

If 170 million people worldwide suffer from diabetes, that's probably because at LEAST that many people worldwide suffer from what is lovingly known in medical circles as "biscuit poisoning". Or, in the immortal words of one of my partners, overheard by me because he likes to yell, "There's no mystery here, Mr. So-and-so. You eat too &$*#@ much!". :lol:



Nuff said...

[grayarabpony]

1 woman in 10 does not have Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome.

[deltawave]

I think it was supposed to read 0.1 in 10, or 1 in 100 (if I have the math right).

And PCOS is very strongly linked with obesity. Again: chicken? Or egg?

[CookiePony]

DW, I hear you on the Occam's Razor thing... I just differ from you in that think that it might be somewhat obvious that we should look more at chemical exposures for some of these endocrine-related horse and human health issues.

My intention in posting the BBC link about endocrine disruptors was more to give background information to laypeople, but if you are interested in peer reviewed studies here are some that a quick PubMed search on diabetes, obesity, and endocrine disruptors turned up:

Lee et al (2007) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18071669?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

Ropero et al (2007) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17971160?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

Bahtyar et al (2007) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17954415?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

Newbold et al (2007) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17321108?ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

Newbold et al (also 2007) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17604389?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

van den Hazel et al (2006) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17000565?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

Mullerova and Kopecky (2007) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16925464?ordinalpos=9&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

[deltawave]

I don't doubt there's a lot of theory and work going on out there, but I also note the citations listed are pretty much reviews of the literature, editorial viewpoints and hypothetical musings, not actual studies with subjects. Other than the one where they injected mice with Bisphenol-A, a substance whose hype level VASTLY exceeds its toxicity. :)

How to explain the accelerating pace of diabetes onset with the fact that a lot of the toxins implicated are no longer used, due to tighter EPA regulation?

Biscuit poisoning (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18158698?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

Obesity is everywhere, not just the USA (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18158698?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

Cars cause diabetes (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18057761?ordinalpos=20&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

Your points are (all) very well taken, but let's think about IMPACT and THE LIKELIHOOD WE CAN HAVE ONE. How can an individual horse owner stave off the devastating effects of IR? Environmental cleanup? Or changing the diet? Dress the horse in a biohazard suit? Or get the animal working more than 30 minutes four times a week? Plastic bubble? Or stop loving it to death?

[Lookout]

The first two links are the same: 'paediatric' metabolic syndrome.

[CookiePony]

Dress the horse in a biohazard suit?

This one gets my vote!! :lol::lol: I have an image of herds of horses all suited up.

But at the moment, I do agree that the best we can do is manage diet and exercise.

[deltawave]

Oops, sorry, got a little fast and loose with my links. The 2nd one was supposed to be about the incidence of metabolic syndrome in Jordan.

[criss]

The point, Katy, about harping on the effects of things long banned is that those chemicals are persistant in the environment. They are in the food supply because they are in the soil and water. Didja know that a chemical used to make teflon has been found in practically everyone who's been tested for it (including polar bears)? (http://www.ewg.org/node/25603) That stuff will be around forever.

Now, I'm not saying this is why horses have Cushing's. I think the increased longevity of horses is allowing us to see a lot more diseases that most horses didn't live long enough to suffer from even 20-30 years ago. Even as recently as when I was a kid, when we first had horses in the mid-80s, it wasn't that common to have a horse still in any work in its mid 20s, and now I know plenty of people still lightly hacking their 30+yo's. To me, that's probably the biggest factor. Well, that and the fact that a lot more horses used to die of things we couldn't identify and therefore couldn't analyze statistically.

That said, there's a LOT we don't know about the chemicals blithely released into the environment during the 20th century and continuing into the 21st. Before that we didn't have the ability to make stuff that toxic, so lead paint/pipes was about the worst of it. Heavy metals and other poisons certainly aren't and weren't good for people or animals, and other stuff like food poisoning and disease spread by lack of sanitation were obviously huge problems, so it's not like "the past" is necessarily something to return to even if it weren't a huge, illusory collage. And I agree w/ CookiePony, if you say "the past" you'd better have some kind of more specific idea of when you're talking about, because otherwise it's a pretty big topic.

But anyway, things like heavy metals and pesticides tend to bioaccumulate in fatty tissues, with the load increasing through the life of the animal. Therefore, on would expect top-of-the-food-chain things like non-vegan humans to have heavier loads than grazing horses (since each prey animal consumed passes on its own load of fat-soluble chemicals). Longer lifespans would also correlate with eavier lifetime loads, so again, humans should have more than horses. Doesn't mean it doesn't affect them, just that I would expect any effects to be more pronounced in humans. Which, actually, maybe that part checks out since I'm going to wildly assume diabetes/IR in humans is more prevalent than Cushings/IR/metabolic syndrome is in horses.

[deltawave]

Well, there are a lot more humans with unnatural lifestyles than horses, and humans live about 3 times longer, too.

[merrygoround]

Another reason we see IR in horses is that horses live longer now. We vaccinate them against diseases and deworm them regularly.

Doubt the pesticides contribute to IR in any form.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Before Ivermectin "gas colic", and annual tube dewormings, were a major part of a veterinatian's practice. Now with Ivermectin and its relatives, bi-monthly dewormings are relatively easy, and very effective.

"When you hear hooves in the night, think horses, not zebras"--depending of course on your neighborhood. :) :) :)

[grayarabpony]

Which, actually, maybe that part checks out since I'm going to wildly assume diabetes/IR in humans is more prevalent than Cushings/IR/metabolic syndrome is in horses.


The current epidemic of type II diabetes in humans is mostly due to the current epidemic of obesity.

[Katy Watts]

OK, -maybe- pesticides used 30 years ago are making you or your horse sick. Maybe your herbal remedy that has not been researched in horses (or humans) is making your horse sick. Maybe genetic mutations that nature would have weeded out are being fostered and nurtured. Who you going to blame there? Maybe an asteroid will hit and it will all be a moot point. Maybe scientists will come up with a pill that we and our horses can take so we can continue over eating and not exercising.
So what can we do about it? One option would be to spend a lot of time looking for something or someone to blame, which will very doubtfully have any real scientific scrutiny in your horse’s lifetime. Or, you can deal with it as best we can with the knowledge we have at hand.
Worried about lipophilic toxins? Then lose the fat to release them, and exercise and eat right to prevent obesity. I know several morbidly obese people (couple in my own family) who insist that their problem is environmental contamination. ”It’s not my fault I’m fat- it’s the industrial petro-chemical complex” They actually say that they become too ill from release of toxins when they lose weight, so that is an excuse for staying obese. (sugar withdrawal feels bad) But every time I am around them, it is VERY obvious that they eat twice as much as I do, and hide candy in their purse. (peanut brittle is a high protein snack, dontcha know)
If you line up the scientists who invented Teflon and PCB’s and DDT and shoot them all, will it fix everything? No. You still have to exercise, cut the sugar, and eat less. Shall we ban all pesticides, drastically decrease the worlds food supply, and go back to everyone growing their own vegetables? Will that fix your horse? I have people sending me ‘organically’ grown hay analysis that has extremely high levels of sugar and toxic amounts of nitrate, so I know that is not always the answer. I have met people who at great expense shipped in pallets of organically grown grain, and it was not the answer.
Deltawave had it right. Let’s focus on what we CAN do with THIS horse.
Katy

[deltawave]

Maybe scientists will come up with a pill that we and our horses can take so we can continue over eating and not exercising.

It's already here! (http://www.akavardirect.com)

:p

[Katy Watts]

So what....? It gives you nausea, or maybe explosive diarrhea whenever you eat? So then you don't want to? I actually tried Hoodia (hey, Oprah don't lie) and it gives me heartburn, and by golly, I didn't feel like eating as much.
Deltawave..... the REALLY big, scary issue here is that people BELIEVE that these remedies are possible.
Katy

[criss]

Yes, yes, all fat people and owners of fat horses are liars and to boot are too stupid to understand how much they're eating/feeding. Your fat relatives are "hiding" candy, because it's not like an adult could choose to have candy in her purse and be totally open about the fact. I'm SO not having this conversation with you.

Losing fat doesn't release the toxins, as far as I know. The thing is, losing weight isn't actually losing fat (except by liposuction or whatever). You burn the fat, converting it into energy and/or lean muscle mass. So you are metabolizing whatever was in those fat cells, and while I'm not any kind of scientist, logic tells me your metabolic processes deposit those fat-soluble chemicals right back into other fat cells. It's not, after all, as if thin horses or people have body-fat percentages of zero--everyone has body fat. If, for instance, one ingested too much of a fat-soluble vitamin, losing weight wouldn't help the resulting toxicity.

I agree with you totally that we need to take care of our horses according to the best information currently available to us; I feed my Cushings pony low-NSC hay and a low-NSC ration balancer with Quiessence and pergolide, and while he is retired due to a fractured stifle, he does get plenty of exercise in his large, hilly 24/7 turnout. That said, I think we should continue to research the effects of other environmental influences on our health rather than stick out heads in the sand. Many of the persistant organic chemicals we've released in the environment are potent endocrine disruptors, and while they may only be present in tiny quantities if one is lucky enough not to live or keep horses next to a chemical plant, their effects are still worth researching.

Then again, you're the one who claims to have tried hoodia even when you "know" diet and exercise are the only things that work, so maybe I'm not the one with the problem looking at things scientifically...

[deltawave]

the REALLY big, scary issue here is that people BELIEVE that these remedies are possible.
Amen, and welcome to my world. :no:

logic tells me your metabolic processes deposit those fat-soluble chemicals right back into other fat cellsNot so. Whether you consider it logical or not, God (or Mother Nature, take your pick) gave us a liver and two kidneys to rid our bodies of unwanted things. Empty the fat cells, and everything (fatty acids AND putative toxins) is then released into the circulation, wherein it can be properly disposed of. No, acute vitamin A toxicity (to use an example) is not treated by weight loss. It is treated by simply allowing the body to dispose of the excess. Simple, efficient, and done without any intervention on our part. Thank you, liver and kidneys. :)

Nobody's sticking any body parts in the sand here. Just acknowledging the very real fact that in the grand scheme of things, environmental toxins are not only something we can do very little about, while the other parts of the puzzle ARE definitely impact-able by us, simply by making basic good decisions. So yes, I'm all for environmentally sound stewardship of our planet. But out of the next 100 people I see die, I'm guessing diet, smoking, and obesity are going to be responsible for more than half, whereas environmental toxins would score a big ZERO. Do we expend our energy on the fraction of a percent, or go for the "low hanging fruit", as it were? (Or low-hanging doughnut, to be more precise) :p

[Lookout]

Worried about lipophilic toxins? Then lose the fat to release them, and exercise and eat right to prevent obesity. I know several morbidly obese people (couple in my own family) who insist that their problem is environmental contamination. ”It’s not my fault I’m fat- it’s the industrial petro-chemical complex” They actually say that they become too ill from release of toxins when they lose weight, so that is an excuse for staying obese. (sugar withdrawal feels bad)
What symptoms did they imagine they were having?

[Lookout]

Losing fat doesn't release the toxins, as far as I know. The thing is, losing weight isn't actually losing fat (except by liposuction or whatever). You burn the fat, converting it into energy and/or lean muscle mass.
Actually no process will convert fat into muscle. It can get burned as energy but that's it. Muscle condition can be improved but no fat cell will be converted into a muscle cell.

[Thomas_1]

Look no further than modern high sugar diets.

Obese and unhealthy people and horses affected too!

[Katy Watts]

What symptoms did they imagine they were having?

I don't doubt that the symptoms of sugar withdrawal are real in humans with severe insulin resistance or hypoglycemia. The brain must have glucose to function. My Mom was at one time so severely hypoglycemic that she would pass out waiting to be seated in resturants. (its a good way to get a free meal) It's secondary to short bowel syndrome, because 40 years ago they mistakenly thought that bowel resection was the way to treat her Chrones disease. When Mom needs to eat, her eyes glaze over, she dozes off, gets dizzy, and weak. She gets negative, pessemistic and paranoid. When she's on sugar, she's upbeat, optimistic and trusting. Actually her new husband admits he liked her on sugar better, but realizes how bad it is in the long run. Once on a guided horse pack trip in the mountains, she got so la la I had to spoon feed her and remind her to chew. She has forgotten whole vacations where she was not fed frequently enough. (Africa-horrible place) My sisters once helped Mom get off a bad sugar binge. They came several times a day and force fed her high protein food and made deviled eggs and left all kinds of appropriate snacks. They said she stayed in a chair most of the time totally zoned out. Then in 3 days if you can stay away from the sugar, ketosis kicks in and you can utilize fat to make glucose so your brain can work again. (I'm sure Deltawave can do a better job of explaining) She admits that when my stepdad goes away, she'll eat nothing but bread, cereal and cookies for a week. My sister, a neice, and a former sister in law all have full blown metabolic syndrome with every conceivable symptom. High BP, high triglycerides, IR, PCOS, fibromyalgia, extreme swelling of hands and feet. They are very ill and the symptoms are real. These are very smart women, but good at denial. My sister is a clinical psychologist, so she has all kinds of psychobabble she can use for denial and has forbidden me to speak of met syndrome in her presence. It's very hard to watch someone you love eat themselves to death. If some of you have these symptoms, please don't think we hate you because you are fat. We are upset because you are forcing us to sit there and watch you commit suicide in the guise of lunch, yet you forbid us to mention the 'fat' or 'obese' word because it's not polite.

Sugar addicts starting a very low carb diet frequently complain of nausea. Coupled with the weakness it feels a bit like the flu. I'm not sure, but I think it can be attibuted to the ketosis. You get over it by drinking HUGE amounts of water.
Now, horses do not get ketosis, nor do they get hypoglycemic. They got a whole different way to generate energy, via VFA. So please don't think your horse will suffer if you take him off sugar suddenly.
Katy

[deltawave]

Couldn't have said it better. :)

People who are in denial will look you in the eye and flatly declare that something IS or IS NOT so, even if you have in your hand irrefutable proof of the opposite. They will latch on to ANY explanation for why they feel bad, or have failed at something, or have lost something, as long as it is not the issue about which they are in denial. They're not nuts (not entirely anyway) and they're not trying to yank your chain. They TRULY BELIEVE what they say. Their brains do not allow them to do otherwise.

Hence the "environmental toxins caused my diabetes" thing, which is VERY real, VERY common, and VERY frustrating. "You can't prove it ISN'T!!" goes the dialogue. Kind of like the individuals who INSIST that smoking does not cause cancer because not every smoker gets it. Or because non-smokers sometimes do. A complete lack of understanding of the disease process and the basics of statistics is only part of it. Denial makes up the rest. :no:

[sing]

There is also the issue of management- and advances in medicine. People used to die from diabetes early because there was no treatment.
Horses are more highly managed than they used to be- more than likely living longer increasing the chances that something in the universe will latch on to them and kill them, its just in the odds really.

Oh and if you can stand it, go and look in the cereal isle of your local grocery store-they are selling cookies disguised as cereal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lookout]

[quote=deltawave;2973073]Couldn't have said it better. :)

/quote]
Well if you're referring to KatyWatts, I'm :confused: . First she said they 'say' they feel bad when they stop eating sugar, then she has a very detailed example of someone who really does feel bad and says she believes the symptoms are very real, so where does denial fit into this?

[equinelaw]

I haven't read the thread. I'm sure nobody wants ot get me started. . but. . there is some research linking obesity in humans to a virus. Its a weak link, but a suprising one. Needs much more research.

What if. . . . . . :confused::confused::eek::)

If you are looking for Horses or Zebras, you might miss the Elephant in the room? We are so in tuned to fat being a moral failure of glutney and excess, we don't even look for other causes:)

[grayarabpony]

I haven't read the thread. I'm sure nobody wants ot get me started. . but. . there is some research linking obesity in humans to a virus. Its a weak link, but a suprising one. Needs much more research.

What if. . . . . . :confused::confused::eek::)

If you are looking for Horses or Zebras, you might miss the Elephant in the room? We are so in tuned to fat being a moral failure of glutney and excess, we don't even look for other causes:)


Yep.... right....

[deltawave]

The denial comes in when the person refuses to acknowledge that what they are eating and what they are NOT doing with their bodies (exercising) is the main cause of their obesity. Nobody is denying the fact that sugar makes us feel good and crashing down from a "sugar high" makes us feel BAD. The "deniers" are taking that fact, insisting that those symptoms mean they CANNOT POSSIBLY do without the sugar, while still continuing to blame toxins or whatever for the problem. When I was much younger it was blamed on "GLANDS", whatever THAT means. All the morbidly obese kids in school (80% of whom had morbidly obese parents) were told that "they had gland problems", as an explanation for their obesity. Having obese parents is TOUGH for kids . . .how much of it is genetic, and how much is lifestyle? Which is passed on? Both? But that's a sensitive, complex, and difficult topic that I won't go into.

My point is that among people who do NO physical exercise, are obese, and eat a terrible diet, my observation has been (and suprise, LOTS of them wind up as my patients) that only a fairly small percentage of them will own up to these facts as the "unvarnished truth". Much less than half, I'd say. And that's when talking to a doctor . . . what they tell themselves, their families, etc. may be another matter altogether. Denial is a very powerful thing, along with simple ignorance (NOT stupidity, ignorance being defined here as NOT KNOWING), a lifetime of bad habits, and often general apathy.

[sing]

I was watching Michael Pollan discuss his new book In Defense of Food (I think that's the title.) He made the point that agribusiness has profited greatly from hyper-processing the food we eat. If food is processed it can be manipulated more easily to keep up with new fads and the need for new that seems to dwell in the human brain.
I see horse feed heading in the same direction- you honestly cannot tell what feed is made of anymore- just that it contians many great new ingredients to ward off the latest dreaded disease.

[EqTrainer]

To return this subject to horses, I see more skinny IR and metabolic horses than I do fat IR or metabolic horses. Maybe it's just the type of horses I deal with, but I doubt it.

Not going to say anymore as I don't have any research papers to back that up :lol:

[grayarabpony]

To return this subject to horses, I see more skinny IR and metabolic horses than I do fat IR or metabolic horses. Maybe it's just the type of horses I deal with, but I doubt it.

Not going to say anymore as I don't have any research papers to back that up :lol:

I wouldn't be surprised if many of those horses were fat for several years and now you see them when they're thin and ill. I've seen that happen with several older horses.... first jellybean fat for several years, then later you can't keep the weight on them (just like diabetics), then founder, death...

[EqTrainer]

Some of them..

but some of them were notorious "hard keepers" all their lives.

[deltawave]

Not all diabetics are fat.

Not all fat people are diabetic.

Not all hard keepers are "metabolic".

Not all "metabolic" horses are hard keepers. Or easy keepers.

AND

Not all hard keepers that are "metabolic" are hard keepers BECAUSE they are "metabolic". :)

Or, simply put, not all critters are textbook examples of this or that or the other. :) It is entirely possible to have multiple different issues going on.

[Katy Watts]

To return this subject to horses, I see more skinny IR and metabolic horses than I do fat IR or metabolic horses.:

Yes, pet peeve of mine, too. I spoke my mind about this issue to Dr. Philip Johnson years ago. Showed him pictures of my ribby, thin severly IR horse and said 'Now you tell me this horse is obese'. He said 'this is a well managed horse with a TENDANCY to become obese'. Even when lean, you can see hints of where her abnormal fat deposits are laying wait. She got fat as a 2 YO at pasture. Same pasture that foundered her dam the first time so I freaked and brought her home to dry lot and very controlled grazing. Never been fat since. Actually tends almost too thin. All ribs show, but she has excellent muscling. Looks racing fit. Dr. Johnson is now mentioning in his talks and papers that not all IR horses are fat.
I also told Dr. Pollitt the same thing. Last spring, he mentioned that other reserachers at the Mid Atlantic Nutrition Conference were talking about thin IR horses.
Hopefully within a few more years it will become widely acknowledged so that more thin horses can be properly diagnosed. Change happens so slow. At least now it is widely acknowledged that not all Cushing's horses are hairy.

[Calena]

Not all diabetics are fat.

Not all fat people are diabetic.

Not all hard keepers are "metabolic".

Not all "metabolic" horses are hard keepers. Or easy keepers.

AND

Not all hard keepers that are "metabolic" are hard keepers BECAUSE they are "metabolic". :)

Or, simply put, not all critters are textbook examples of this or that or the other. :) It is entirely possible to have multiple different issues going on.

Oh my gosh, I think you've nailed it! This is why my head hurts from banging it against the wall. I'm looking for a quick easy answer and gosh darnit! I can't find one. I've had to settle for common sense (exercise, eat what appears to be healthy:confused:, rest, etc.) and just hope all stays well.

Knock on wood, my 25 yo mare is doing well today. Ask me again tomorrow, I may have a different answer.

I remember back when all IR was blamed on too much protein. Take the protein out of the sweet feed! Okay, that was wrong. At least we've learned enough to know this problem requires serious research and analysis.

[deltawave]

When we look back on the stuff we "thought we knew" 25 years ago, it is truly humbling and even scary a times. And there is NO reason to think that we won't be looking back at "now" 25 years hence and thinking the exact same thing! :)

[I'm EBO]

To this day, I have "knowlegable" horse people telling me NOT to feed my IR horse alfalfa; that he will do better on 3-way or oat hay. After I slap them to the ground, I gently explain that it's the sugar, stupid.

[grayarabpony]

Yes, that is true, that not all people who are diabetic are fat (although in type II diabetes obesity is a major factor), and it's also true that not all fat people are diabetic. Genes and how long the obesity has been present are major factors too. My mother, who was obese for years, was diagnosed with full-blown type II diabetes when she was around 57, the first in her family to be so diagnosed. She had also been the heaviest. Same for my FIL, except that he was diagnosed at around 47. However, I have also known people who were heavy for years who don't have type II diabetes -- will they get it eventually or never remains to be seen.

Back to horses -- so are IR horses the same as type II human diabetics? Or is it a different metabolic disorder?

[deltawave]

I'll wager that it's about as close to the same metabolic disorder as you can get, considering the fact that you're comparing 2 different species with 2 VASTLY different lifespans, GI tracts, lifestyles, and dietary requirements. :)

[purplnurpl]

Probably the same reason we have some many people that suffer from metabolic syndrome.

I'm a Kinesiology/Biomechanics major.
I work in a research lab. Diabetes/Liver Digestive Disease.
I pretty much spend day in day out studying IR/Metabolic Syndrome.

It is not fault but our own.

Same reason there are so many fat dogs and cats.
They certainly don't feed themselves.

[deltawave]

Perhaps to a LARGE extent IR/metabolic syndrome is something we "bring upon ourselves", but let's not forget there's also quite a significant genetic component, too.

[grayarabpony]

So how is IR diagnosed? High blood sugar?

[Druid Acres]

Does anybody get Horse Journal? In the Feb. issue, there is an article about muscle problems in horses. They quote Dr. Valentine and talk about EPSM and adding fat to the diet. Right below the article, there's another article proclaiming:

Added Fat Results In Higher Insulin Responses
High-fat diets may not be a wise choice.
A feeding study just released in the Journal of Equine Science suggests there’s more involved in the insulin response to feeding than just sugar and starch levels (non-structural carbohydrate or NSC).

I found this an odd juxtaposition of topics - it's like the two articles contradict each other. Can somebody who is registered on Rural Heritage email Dr. Valentine and ask her what the heck is up with that?

[EqTrainer]

Does anybody get Horse Journal? In the Feb. issue, there is an article about muscle problems in horses. They quote Dr. Valentine and talk about EPSM and adding fat to the diet. Right below the article, there's another article proclaiming:

Added Fat Results In Higher Insulin Responses
High-fat diets may not be a wise choice.
A feeding study just released in the Journal of Equine Science suggests there’s more involved in the insulin response to feeding than just sugar and starch levels (non-structural carbohydrate or NSC).

I found this an odd juxtaposition of topics - it's like the two articles contradict each other. Can somebody who is registered on Rural Heritage email Dr. Valentine and ask her what the heck is up with that?

EPSM and IR are nothing like the same thing.

I have been saying FOR YEARS that you should never throw high fat diets at a skinny horse without eliminating the possibility that the horse is IR. People treat me like I am whacked. The fact is, IR horses crash and burn on high fat diets. They become edemic (they actually look nice and fat for about three weeks but it's all fluids) and then they become laminitic. They simply cannot metabolize and use the fat like another horse, with no issues, could. I don't understand the entire mechanism but I suspect it has a lot to do w/liver function as horses use bile to digest fat.

I now feed or participate in formulating diets for over thirty horses and not ONE of them is on an even remotely high fat diet. With the exception of EPSM horses, I really think that in general if a horse requires a high fat diet to maintain weight and energy, you should be looking a little harder at that horse instead of getting out the oil bottle.

slb, who rarely posts here anymore, had the same experience.

But we aren't ever going to be able to do a research paper on it so I guess that information is worse than useless, it's anecdotal!

[criss]

When we look back on the stuff we "thought we knew" 25 years ago, it is truly humbling and even scary a times. And there is NO reason to think that we won't be looking back at "now" 25 years hence and thinking the exact same thing! :)
That's pretty rich, considering how hard you smack down anyone who dares speculate that we DO NOT really know everything about e.g. what effects pesticides may have on the endocrine system.

[Lookout]

I have been saying FOR YEARS that you should never throw high fat diets at a skinny horse without eliminating the possibility that the horse is IR. People treat me like I am whacked. The fact is, IR horses crash and burn on high fat diets. They become edemic (they actually look nice and fat for about three weeks but it's all fluids) and then they become laminitic. They simply cannot metabolize and use the fat like another horse, with no issues, could. I don't understand the entire mechanism but I suspect it has a lot to do w/liver function as horses use bile to digest fat.


This reminds me of the study that was discussed in PH about 2 yrs ago, where they tested a group of ponies and the ones that had laminitic issues were discovered to have bile duct problems. Unfortunately I don't have the magazine.

purpnpurl, any comment?

[deltawave]

That's pretty rich, considering how hard you smack down anyone who dares speculate that we DO NOT really know everything about e.g. what effects pesticides may have on the endocrine system. Sooooo, you're saying we DO know everything about what effects pesticides may have on the endocrine system? Or that I've said that? Please show me where. How on earth does saying "we don't know" necessarily contradict "we know more than we used to?" :confused: I think I WAS the one saying we shouldn't speculate about pesticides, etc. and that we don't know enough to make proclamations.

Withholding judgment and refusing to make intuitive leaps is NOT the same thing as saying "I know this is so". In fact, it's quite literally the opposite. Your argument makes no sense to me, sorry.

[Calena]

Well, 25 years ago, there was no such thing as an IR horse or an EPSM horse. Some horses had 'pituitary' problems, some horses had 'thyroid' problems, some horses were too fat, etc. If we didn't know about it, the horse couldn't have it. We've come a long way since then.

I have been saying FOR YEARS that you should never throw high fat diets at a skinny horse without eliminating the possibility that the horse is IR. People treat me like I am whacked.Unfortunately, I know the feeling. What we have really learned (at least the people on this board) is that each horse has to be evaluated as an individual and you'd better make darn good and certain that whoever is doing the evaluation is qualified to do it. It takes a whole lot of homework to sort fact from fiction in this arena and unless there is some personal reason for doing the homework, I find very few people who bother. I have had zero problems locating self-proclaimed experts saying "just feed the horse XYZ and you won't have any problems."

Along the same lines, deciding to feed our horses only organically grown foods sounds nice but the cost and availability factors would be problematic. Also, I'd imagine we are still left with the question that if the problem is the pesticides, then why are only a certain percentage of horses eating the pesticides developing symptoms of metabolic disorders?

Also, modern pesticides are much safer than those in common use 30 or 40 years ago, which makes the equation run backwards; it's rather like claiming we're all getting sick from water-based paint fumes when millions of us survived the lead based paint heydays. In view of the whole picture, the pesticides/IR claims don't hold up very well.

[Appassionato]

Well, 25 years ago, there was no such thing as an IR horse or an EPSM horse. Some horses had 'pituitary' problems, some horses had 'thyroid' problems, some horses were too fat, etc. If we didn't know about it, the horse couldn't have it. We've come a long way since then.

Unfortunately, I know the feeling. What we have really learned (at least the people on this board) is that each horse has to be evaluated as an individual and you'd better make darn good and certain that whoever is doing the evaluation is qualified to do it. It takes a whole lot of homework to sort fact from fiction in this arena and unless there is some personal reason for doing the homework, I find very few people who bother. I have had zero problems locating self-proclaimed experts saying "just feed the horse XYZ and you won't have any problems."

I couldn't agree more. Cushing's happened to ponies that were generally older, and it just meant that they had long hair that wouldn't shed in the summer. That was it. I never knew one to founder.

And no joke about horses being individuals, as well as sorting fact from fiction being a LOT of homework! :yes:

[criss]

Sooooo, you're saying we DO know everything about what effects pesticides may have on the endocrine system? Or that I've said that? Please show me where. How on earth does saying "we don't know" necessarily contradict "we know more than we used to?" :confused: I think I WAS the one saying we shouldn't speculate about pesticides, etc. and that we don't know enough to make proclamations.

Withholding judgment and refusing to make intuitive leaps is NOT the same thing as saying "I know this is so". In fact, it's quite literally the opposite. Your argument makes no sense to me, sorry.
Look, I know you're not an idiot, please don't act as if I am. You and Katy seem to think we know all about managing IR--that we just have to avoid feeding them tons of sugar lest they get faaaaat!--and that it is as simple as that and therefore we shouldn't go looking for other explanations.

I think, while it's certainly true that there are horses who do not tolerate diets high in sugars and other non-fiber carbs, that the odds are there are other things going on that we don't yet know about. It seems not implausible that environmental toxins, especially ones that bioaccumulate and are known endocrine disruptors, could be worth a closer look even if we're no longer actively putting large quantities of them into the environment (and we are actively putting large quantities of some of them into the environment still, though it's true that some of the worst offenders have been curtailed since the mid-20th century).

When you say "We shouldn't speculate," what you mean is "Silly laypeople who have no idea how science works shouldn't discuss what kinds of knowledge we may currently be missing, because then I couldn't tell them with such absolute certainty what science has already proved."

Sadly, your attitude is shared by a lot of doctors. It seems to me it would be better to encourage people to speculate, to see what new trains of thought could be found, in order that a greater range of hypotheses could be put forth to be proved or disproved, thus accumulating and making sense of actual facts faster.

[Calena]

Look, I know you're not an idiot, please don't act as if I am. You and Katy seem to think we know all about managing IR--that we just have to avoid feeding them tons of sugar lest they get faaaaat!--and that it is as simple as that and therefore we shouldn't go looking for other explanations.

criss, I hear them saying the exact opposite. I hear 'we know some, but we need to know a lot more than we do'.

I think, while it's certainly true that there are horses who do not tolerate diets high in sugars and other non-fiber carbs, that the odds are there are other things going on that we don't yet know about.

IIRC, we're all agreeing with you, but you don't seem to be hearing us.

It seems not implausible that environmental toxins, especially ones that bioaccumulate and are known endocrine disruptors, could be worth a closer look even if we're no longer actively putting large quantities of them into the environment (and we are actively putting large quantities of some of them into the environment still, though it's true that some of the worst offenders have been curtailed since the mid-20th century).

It's my understanding that this has already been done to what is considered an 'acceptable' level. While no one is arguing that there is still much to learn and maybe we missed something somewhere, the reality is that there are a limited number of researchers, research dollars and time to do the research. Therefore, we have to point the available resources in the direction that seems to yield the most effective results. Again, I don't feel anyone would argue the merits of an organic diet, the problem is the logistics of providing one. The pesticides currently is use are used to prevent disease to crops. We need crops to feed the horses. A lot of crops. We don't have the ability at this time to produce the quantity of organic feed to do away with pesticides. We do not live in an ideal world.

When you say "We shouldn't speculate," what you mean is "Silly laypeople who have no idea how science works shouldn't discuss what kinds of knowledge we may currently be missing, because then I couldn't tell them with such absolute certainty what science has already proved."

Thank you for providing us with your interpretation of the word 'speculate'. That isn't what is in my dictionary.

The American Heritage Dictionary:

To meditate on a subject; reflect.
To engage in a course of reasoning often based on inconclusive evidence. See Synonyms at think (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/think).
To engage in the buying or selling of a commodity with an element of risk on the chance of profit.I think deltawave is referring to #2.

[Lookout]

Sooooo, you're saying we DO know everything about what effects pesticides may have on the endocrine system? Or that I've said that? Please show me where.
No, your line of argument is always that something can't be true until it is proven and explained. Once it's proven or explained, then it can be true. Until such time, it should not be considered as a possibility.

[criss]

Sure, Calena, you agree with me. Whatever

=Nobody's sticking any body parts in the sand here. Just acknowledging the very real fact that in the grand scheme of things, environmental toxins are not only something we can do very little about, while the other parts of the puzzle ARE definitely impact-able by us, simply by making basic good decisions. So yes, I'm all for environmentally sound stewardship of our planet. But out of the next 100 people I see die, I'm guessing diet, smoking, and obesity are going to be responsible for more than half, whereas environmental toxins would score a big ZERO. Do we expend our energy on the fraction of a percent, or go for the "low hanging fruit", as it were? (Or low-hanging doughnut, to be more precise) :p

And Katy said:
OK, -maybe- pesticides used 30 years ago are making you or your horse sick. Maybe your herbal remedy that has not been researched in horses (or humans) is making your horse sick. Maybe genetic mutations that nature would have weeded out are being fostered and nurtured. Who you going to blame there? Maybe an asteroid will hit and it will all be a moot point. Maybe scientists will come up with a pill that we and our horses can take so we can continue over eating and not exercising.

So in other words, anyone who has the nerve to speculate about what might be responsible for the parts we DON'T yet understand is clearly delusional and a waste of time and spends all day feeding the ponies doughnuts.

But if you want to go on thinking I am the one being difficult here, there's not much I can do to stop you. Carry on...

[Calena]

So, in reading the article in ScienceDirect regarding the link between pesticides and diabetes -

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080125125108.htm

“Of course correlation does not automatically imply causation,” says Dr. Jones. “But if there is indeed a link, the health implications could be tremendous. At present there is very limited information. Research into adult onset diabetes currently focuses on genetics and obesity; there has been almost no consideration for the possible influence of environmental factors such as pollution. . .

Dr Jones said: “I think research should be carried out to first test the hypothesis that POPs exposure can cause diabetes, perhaps using cell or tissue cultures, so we know for sure if this can occur. Assuming POPs can have this effect, the next step would be to try and develop a method of treatment for those people who might be affected.”I think this guy is in cahoots with deltawave and Katy ;).

[Katy Watts]

Hay rarely has any pesticides applied. Some exception for alfalfa in areas where blister beetles or cut worms occur. Only if the stand is real poor would it need a herbicide application, but most farmers would plow it out rather than spend time and money on a poor stand. If you want to avoid pesticides, just buy weedy hay.
Yes, I think that other factors yet unresearched may apply. Endophytes are something I've been trying to get the researchers to look at more closely. Vasoconstrictive properties. Look into 'fescue foot' in cattle.
Grain would have at least one herbicide application. Maybe a fungicide application in real wet growing regions. Sometimes a insecticide in worm country But you wouldn't feed grain to an IR horse.

So where do you think the pesticide contamination is coming from ? You think IR is caused by fly spray? I live in an area with very few insects. I use one bottle of horse fly spray a year. Is that what causes my horses to get sore feet in winter? I got CO Dept of Health to test my water for about 35 different pesticides. Zero.
I did have toxic levels of nitrate in my water. I do wish someone would look at the affect of nitrate on the vascular system of a horses feet. Veinous and arterial tissue react differently to various substances. (Bailey and Elliot) If AV shunts are opened by -something- but veins are closed due to vasoconstriction (proposed by not proven as a side affect of IR) would that not create a backup of blood and a bounding pulse?
See. I can speculate, too. There's a lot of things that need researching. Only I think some more plausible than pesticides.
Katy

[deltawave]

How does your "sound bite" on my believing that it's impractical to try and "do something" about something we don't understand fully make me into someone who doesn't think it's worth trying to know more before we go down a particular road? Again, this line of reasoning is completely confusing to me.

Scientists are SUPPOSED to speculate, theorize, hypothesize. Lay people are perfectly welcome to do the same. But we don't call that "fact", now, do we? "What might be" exists in the sphere of UNKNOWNS. But if you care to make that big, big leap, you are more than welcome to. I prefer to stick with what IS known, and let the professionals (I am not a research scientist) answer the questions to which we DON'T know the answers. Just "wanting it to be so" or "believing it to be so" or "really, really, really thinking it to be so" is not sufficient. Even for scientists. At the end of his life even Einstein had to admit that what he'd spent his last 30 years working on was not able to be discovered by him. He believed passionately in his unified field theory, and continued to do so until the day he died, but he never ever got up and said "it is so", lacking the proof to do so.

And as to "changing our minds" as things evolve in our knowledge, it is a VERY poor scientist or thinker who refuses to do so! However, one DOES still require that itty bitty little thing called "proof" in order to do so.

[EqTrainer]

This reminds me of the study that was discussed in PH about 2 yrs ago, where they tested a group of ponies and the ones that had laminitic issues were discovered to have bile duct problems. Unfortunately I don't have the magazine.

purpnpurl, any comment?

I will try to find that, as it would be invaluable to my studies.

Lookout, I believe you and I have talked about the suspected liver issues. Appassionata threw in another vote for it by telling me that she has a close friend who has had necropsies done on sheep and cattle and found liver flukes in them. Supposedly we don't have them here in the US :lol: well, she begs to differ. I am waiting for necropsy results on a horse who died before he could be treated, this will be the first horse we have been able to examine dead. What a mixed feeling that is.

Purpnpurl is on board, having done the deal with Boomer and her new horse.

What is going to be very interesting are the young horses we now have, who have been dewormed properly since they were young, never fed sugared concentrates, lived outside 24/7 and will never have their cortizol levels artificially raised and sustained.

FWIW, I think the raised cortizol level is just as big a player in IR as anything else - possibly more than being fat and unworked. Chronic pain (horses mask pain so well, being herd animals that get eaten in the wild) leads to raised cortizol levels, raised cortizol levels lead to decreased glucose function. Managing pain without mechanically raising cortizol levels should be a higher priority than it currently is, IMO. In other words, running for the corticosteroids when a horse is sticky in his flying changes should probably be reevaluated IF your goal is longevity :lol: and not just the next horse show.

One potential reason for the increase in IR over the years is that I distinctly remember, when I was a kid, that we did not inject *lame* horses. I can remember being told that we had to get the horse comfortable before we could inject. As we all know, that is no longer the case.

[grayarabpony]

Most horses that are diagnosed as IR -- how old are they?

[EqTrainer]

IME, the average age is around 10.

[Lookout]

Scientists are SUPPOSED to speculate, theorize, hypothesize. Lay people are perfectly welcome to do the same.
So why don't you just let them do so instead of denigrating and humiliating someone every time they dare to make a comment that doesn't have reams of studies to back it up, calling in reinforcements of other scientists to swoop down on the poster.
And couching it in ;) :lol:;) :) ;) :) :cool: :winkgrin:

[Appassionato]

Appassionata threw in another vote for it by telling me that she has a close friend who has had necropsies done on sheep and cattle and found liver flukes in them. Supposedly we don't have them here in the US :lol: well, she begs to differ. I am waiting for necropsy results on a horse who died before he could be treated, this will be the first horse we have been able to examine dead. What a mixed feeling that is.

Yep. And goats. Mostly cows though. But liver flukes were found.

Chronic pain (horses mask pain so well, being herd animals that get eaten in the wild) leads to raised cortizol levels, raised cortizol levels lead to decreased glucose function. Managing pain without mechanically raising cortizol levels should be a higher priority than it currently is, IMO. In other words, running for the corticosteroids when a horse is sticky in his flying changes should probably be reevaluated IF your goal is longevity :lol: and not just the next horse show.

No doubt about the pain management issue! You know where I stand on that one!

And I've certainly been in the spot, more than once, where Bo gave me vague signs of pain. I had just started competing preliminary level when Bo stuck a stick in his wall/white line. After removing the stick we saw, we slowly worked him back up. But then I noticed we'd canter, canter, jump, canter, canter, canter, carry the leg, canter, canter, canter, canter, turn, canter, canter, canter, jump, canter, canter, canter, canter, carry the leg...drove me nuts. Finally at Auburn U the rest of the stick was found near Bo's coronet band. :eek: The horse was NOT lame, Dr. Schumacher was stumped about that, but there the stick was in an A/P shot. :uhoh: Talk about me feeling like the worst horse mom in the world! :lol:

[Lookout]

I will try to find that, as it would be invaluable to my studies.Start with 2-3yrs ago, around March.

Purpnpurl is on board, having done the deal with Boomer and her new horse.
As someone who works in that field of study, I"m looking for her input.

Managing pain without mechanically raising cortizol levels should be a higher priority than it currently is, IMO. In other words, running for the corticosteroids when a horse is sticky in his flying changes should probably be reevaluated IF your goal is longevity :lol: and not just the next horse show.Well those are probably in the minority :(


One potential reason for the increase in IR over the years is that I distinctly remember, when I was a kid, that we did not inject *lame* horses. I can remember being told that we had to get the horse comfortable before we could inject. As we all know, that is no longer the case.
In hindsight, I realize my horse displayed thyroid issues ever since I've had him (age 7) which no one noticed or thought to diagnose till he crashed at age 15 once his shoes were removed.

[EqTrainer]

Joint injections are *routine* in many show barns. Many vets inject joints at the first sign of stiffness, without xrays or further diagnostics.

In the horses I deal with, the majority of them have been injected multiple times - think 2x year for 5 years.. multiple joints. Coffin joints, hocks, fetlocks, pasterns, backs, SI's...

It's not simply the cortizol injected itself, but that it may send a horse who is already walking the line over it.. if you don't get down to the reason for pain, you are only treating the symptoms.

I do think it is interesting that a lot of fat horses hang around doing nothing and never seem to develop anything metabolic. I trim quite a few pasture ornaments who are fat and lazy and NOT metabolic or IR. If that were all it took, they'd be four feet up by now :lol:

There is more going on than that.

And I don't think the injections are the only thing. I think there are many facets to it, and that there are probably different circumstance sets.. but that there are a limited number of those. Clearly we see two obvious types - the skinny IR horse and the fat IR horse. Their causes for IR are not the same.

The cure is not the same for each time, either, although there are similarities. I would MUCH rather be dealing with a skinny IR horse, IME they are easier to fix. I suspect a genetic factor in the fat ones.

Gotta go.

[Druid Acres]

I think, while it's certainly true that there are horses who do not tolerate diets high in sugars and other non-fiber carbs, that the odds are there are other things going on that we don't yet know about. It seems not implausible that environmental toxins, especially ones that bioaccumulate and are known endocrine disruptors, could be worth a closer look even if we're no longer actively putting large quantities of them into the environment (and we are actively putting large quantities of some of them into the environment still, though it's true that some of the worst offenders have been curtailed since the mid-20th century).

Thanks, criss. I totally agree, and could not have stated it better myself.

[grayarabpony]

Eqtrainer, that was my thought too, that we are dealing with more than one metabolic issue. I have seen an 8-year-old, who wasn't fat (at least not at the time I saw him), didn't have a cresty neck, but foundered if his owner gave him so much as a half an hour's grazing. He had to live on a dry lot. I've seen older horses who were fat for years, then couldn't keep any weight on, then foundered -- perhaps an IR issue resulting from obesity and diet.

Criss, I don't think anyone believes that obesity is the only cause of IR issues in horses. But other factors that affect a smaller percentage of horses will take a much longer time to figure out. Scientific studies are infuriatingly slow, and numbers of subjects are often too small yield any real results. Look at the women's study with hormone replacement -- once scientists started looking at large studies a different picture emerged than what doctors had previously believed.

[Lookout]

Not sure if you were talking to me EqT but my point was that those looking past the next show (or perhaps championship, that's long term thinking), are in the minority.

[matryoshka]

Hay rarely has any pesticides applied. Some exception for alfalfa in areas where blister beetles or cut worms occur. Only if the stand is real poor would it need a herbicide application, but most farmers would plow it out rather than spend time and money on a poor stand. If you want to avoid pesticides, just buy weedy hay. It may not have pesticides applied, but some local farmers are applying a drying agent to damp hay during the baling process so it doesn't mold. My boss at the lay-up farm mentioned it to me after I gave him the name of a guy who puts up lovely roundbales--no yucky stuff at all and it is highly palatable. In race horses, they are seeing increased incidences of breathing problems. My boss "speculates" that it may have something to do with the use of this drying agent in the hay.

Totally unproven. But he tries to avoid hay that is "too nice" in order to avoid buying hay that has been treated this way. No sense taking unnecessary chances. He also talks to the farmers about whether they use the drying agent. One hopes the farmers/hay dealers won't change the answer based on what they think you want to hear.

Food for thought, anyway...

BTW, I had symptoms very like Katy's mom back when I was young and very thin. On our honeymoon, my husband knew when I needed to eat before I did by my eyes and my mood. He always kept some food on hand as self defense. :lol: Anyway, I read Sugarbusters and have learned to manage my own eating much better. Been feeling pretty good for years now, and I don't listen to what others say works for them. One has to figure out the best solution for one's own health (and discuss it with a doctor). I now have a bit of a post-childbearing jelly-belly. It's nothing that a few hours a week of swimming won't cure, but heck, I, making the time for that kind of excercise is a real pain in the arse... ;) That jelly-belly sits nicely atop the muscle I've built up from trimming horses!!

[matryoshka]

EquTrainer, I bet show horses have high cortisol levels based on the stress of their lives. I've yet to see a laid back show barn. People are tense, horses are tense, dogs are quiet...;)

There does seem to be a body type associated with IR-prone horses, even if they are thin. Anybody else notice this?

[deltawave]

If my comments are "humiliating", that is some SERIOUSLY thin skin! Information, even MISinformation, does not have feelings. If I say "this website is bogus" or "this information is false" or "this theory is unproven", how does that "humiliate" anyone?

And since when is a little humility bad? :) Proclaiming that one KNOWS something when there is no proof is a very non-humble thing, it seems to me. There's WAY too much of that kind of thought process floating around, and I do think there are probably some horses suffering for it.

If I say "I think you all are nuts for using frozen banana peels to treat laminitis" then yes, that is personal. But I really refrain from doing that. I'd hope to be free to say "I have seen no proof that frozen banana peels work", though. The banana peels don't care. :)

[Ghazzu]

It may not have pesticides applied, but some local farmers are applying a drying agent to damp hay during the baling process so it doesn't mold. My boss at the lay-up farm mentioned it to me after I gave him the name of a guy who puts up lovely roundbales--no yucky stuff at all and it is highly palatable. In race horses, they are seeing increased incidences of breathing problems. My boss "speculates" that it may have something to do with the use of this drying agent in the hay.

Totally unproven. But he tries to avoid hay that is "too nice" in order to avoid buying hay that has been treated this way. No sense taking unnecessary chances. He also talks to the farmers about whether they use the drying agent. One hopes the farmers/hay dealers won't change the answer based on what they think you want to hear.

Food for thought, anyway...



The "Drying agent" in the hay is propionic acid.
A volatile fatty acid which is a normal product of hindgut fermentation in the horse. (like acetic acid and butyric acid.)

IMNSHO, the major drawback of using the stuff is if you buy hay by the ton, as you will be paying for a bit more water. OTOH, the less dust and mold in the hay a horse is eating, the better for its respiratory health.

I've fed it before--my horses loved it, and I liked the lack of dust/mold.

[Lookout]

If my comments are "humiliating", that is some SERIOUSLY thin skin! Information, even MISinformation, does not have feelings. If I say "this website is bogus" or "this information is false" or "this theory is unproven", how does that "humiliate" anyone?
:) :) :)

Having a theory is NOT misinformation! It's a THEORY!

:) :) :) :)

Of course someone can't have reams of study to back it up because it's still THEORY!!! And no one has studied it yet because of the snickers and guffaws suggesting what an ABSURD theory it is!

:) :) :) :) :)

Yes, the 'theory is unproven' so don't DARE TO SUGGEST that it's a possibility. How's that for circular logic????? Or stifling new thought?????

:) :) :) :) :) :)

[deltawave]

Huh? :confused:

[Lookout]

It may not have pesticides applied, but some local farmers are applying a drying agent to damp hay during the baling process so it doesn't mold.
You may or may not be referring to whatever it is that they put on hay to keep it greener because people think greener hay is better. That might be the opposite of a drying agent though. It's definitely some kind of chemical though, not a VFA.

[Ghazzu]

The color agents added to hay are citric acid to preserve green color, and, I suspect, a little green food coloring.

[criss]

Look, DW, either you are trying to intimidate everyone here without a medical degree, or else you are just genuinely unaware of how you come across. I'm willing to believe either one. But the end result is the same, you get to sound superior and then act all innocent and shocked when called on it, and it's obnoxious. If you don't want to stifle discussion, I suggest you think before lecturing people, and that you maybe occasionally back off when someone tells you they're offended.

If what you WANT is to stifle discussion, keep right on the way you have been.

And, as if you didn't understand this, it's not your "wanting to know more" that is the problem, but rather your seeming desire for the peanut gallery (AKA everyone who isn't a scientist) to sit down, shut up, and just keep following the established guidelines based on what we already know, even when it's obvious that there are factors that are suspected but unproven. You, I take it, will let us know when we are allowed to learn new "facts".

And Katy, the whole point is that some toxins are persistant organic pollutants--they don't have to be sprayed on your hay in order to affect your horses. As to what we should do about this, pursuing environmental cleanup in general, as well as legislation that will limit future contamination, are probably the main things, since exposure is something we probably don't have control over. Other than that, it seems like researching antidotes to the problems caused by POPs would be useful.

[deltawave]

I'm certainly not sitting here trying to "come across" as anything other than what I am. How I am perceived is not really something I can do a whole lot about--if you choose to judge what I'm like based on internet postings, you are certainly free to do so.

The only soul on this planet I think I could legitimately "intimidate" is my kid. :lol: My patients who know me personally tell me I come across as someone who listens, who communicates well in language they understand, and who gets her point across clearly, even if they don't like what they hear. But again, you of course have to form your own opinion and although I certainly would never offend you on purpose, I will definitely apologize for apparently having done so repeatedly. :( I don't take disagreement personally, but apparently that is not a universal sentiment. So to you, Lookout, and the people who find what I say offensive, I'M SORRY. I can no more change my viewpoint on "belief vs. knowledge" (if you'll allow me to summarize the general theme of the complaints directed against me thus) than I can revoke or erase the educational process that got me here, or the temperament and mindset that makes me the way I am.

But I hope the rope swings both ways. I defy anyone to point out where I called another poster "obnoxious", "superior", or "offensive" ANYWHERE, even if I disagree with them. :rolleyes: Pot, meet kettle. No apology required, though. :)

[Calena]

And Katy, the whole point is that some toxins are persistant organic pollutants--they don't have to be sprayed on your hay in order to affect your horses. As to what we should do about this, pursuing environmental cleanup in general, as well as legislation that will limit future contamination, are probably the main things, since exposure is something we probably don't have control over. Other than that, it seems like researching antidotes to the problems caused by POPs would be useful.

A study regarding POP accumuation in humans:

http://www.umweltbundesamt.de/survey-e/us98/organo.htm


The influence of age and BMI is shown in Figure 2 (http://www.umweltbundesamt.de/survey-e/us98/organo.htm#fig2). The results demonstrate the accumulation of organochlorine compounds in the body with increasing age. The higher concentration with a higher BMI reflects the exposure via fat containing food. The concentration of organochlorine compounds has decreased in the past decades.Given the length of time it takes for any significant levels to accumulate in human populations and taking into consideration that horses are showing signs of metabolic disorders prior to the age of 10 and rarely/never live past their 30's and eat a very low fat diet compared to humans, the likelihood that POP blood accumulations are responsible seems extremely unlikely.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Haven't read all this thread, but the answer is simple.

#1 OBESITY- caused by too much grain, hay and grass meant for cows, better worming so no parasite load, not enough exercise. We are killing our horses with kindness.

#2 Old age- as horses are living longer more and more of these old age diseases (like type 2 diabetes) are manifesting.

[TwoPointTrot]

I tend to agree with Eclectic Horseman's two points above. I can't read this entire thread but it has certainly been spirited what I have read!

As a fallen away moderator of another horse related BB I know first hand that people feel very strongly about IR in particular. I have lived in densely "horsey areas" (Fauquier County VA and Texas) and it is interesting to me that I did not realize the epidemic proportions until I logged on to the internet.

I was slow coming to the horse world in forums. For years I thought people who chatted over the internet were um- lonely. It was really something to me to talk about horses with people all over the world. That being said on other BBs IR discussions turned into all out wars, and some people even insisted on diagnosing other peoples horses over the internet!! Of course, never actually laying eyes on the horse and the diagnostician not being a vet either. They would be SO SURE and even argue their case to the point of quitting the board.
I found the human phenomenon in this diagnoses even more surprising than the disease trend in horses. To this day, I have only known a handful of what I called cushings horses, and they did tend to be older. I just simply don't know. Is it an epidemic? Or is it talked up? Over diagnosed?

Knock on wood for me.
(meaning if I don't take this seriously enough I or my horses shall be stricken down by the hand of fate!:) )
Sorry for the slight detour. Back to speculating!!:D
e

[Katy Watts]

If I say "this website is bogus" or "this information is false" or "this theory is unproven", how does that "humiliate" anyone?


Well this does seem the age for 'no child and no theory left behind'.
Bring everything down to the same level.

Katy

[EqTrainer]

Not sure if you were talking to me EqT but my point was that those looking past the next show (or perhaps championship, that's long term thinking), are in the minority.

My mistake.

Seems to be my day for it, sorry!

[EqTrainer]

EquTrainer, I bet show horses have high cortisol levels based on the stress of their lives. I've yet to see a laid back show barn. People are tense, horses are tense, dogs are quiet...;)

There does seem to be a body type associated with IR-prone horses, even if they are thin. Anybody else notice this?

Yes, I absolutely agree with that. Horses are animals that are made to forage 24/7 in herds and never eat a concentrate. I think it would be interesting to pull cortizol levels on a barn full of show horses. I also think it is interesting, in a horrifying sort of way, that horses do sometimes become laminitic after their joints are injected with corticosteroids. DW can debate that all night but the fact is, it is acknowledged that the extra cortizol has sent their already high cortizol level right over the edge at that point.

I am NOT anti-corticosteroid joint injection. I AM all about understanding it as a *tool*. Under the right circumstances, it is a wonderful tool. But it's not the only one we have, and it can be a very dangerous tool for a horse if used without caution. The caution factor seems to have been mostly removed. It has become so routine that I had to *remind* my own vet that you could indeed use Adequan IA.

Now, don't get me wrong.. I think you can indeed manage a horse in the way humans find necessary and keep their stress to a minimum. But that requires thinking differently than most people are currently trained to do. And some sacrifices in convenience and often some rethinking of our human goals. In spite of that, we manage to keep our horses in excellent, sound shape here, and we do ocassionally show :) and we do well when we do show. So the change in lifestyle has not affected how competitive our horses are.

I hope that someday people will realize that there is a way to do things that does not involve compromising your horse so completely.

There is indeed a thin horse body shape for IR.. emaciated is the word that comes to mind. Topline atrophy. "TB" withers. "TB" necks. For the fat horses, it is fat pads. IMO the jury is out as to whether or not the fat IR horse can be cured.. but in the thin IR horse, so far restoring glucose function has happened and continues to happen. I do not believe the mechanism is the same at all for the different body types, although there must be some overlap.

[Appassionato]

Hopefully I'm not reposting a something that someone else already posted, but I just found this while *researching*, from The Horse, "What Causes Pituitary Pars Intermedia Dysfunction?":

"Mitochondrial dysfunction is known to be a contributing factor to Parkinson's disease, and agricultural chemical usage contributes to Parkinson's in humans--these chemicals might well affect horses too," [McFarlane] suggested. "Also, ponies and Morgans seem to be more susceptible to the disease. What that genetic factor is, we'll understand better with more research. Understanding the mechanisms of disease is essential to knowing how to prevent this disease in these animals."

This is dated July 23, 2007. If anyone wants the whole article, joining www.thehorse.com (http://www.thehorse.com) if free. I don't know if the mods will let me post the whole article; I don't know if there are copyright laws against it.

[deltawave]

CortiSol. Thank you. I feel better. :D ;) I will now go intimidate somebody else. :lol:

[EqTrainer]

Sorry dear, I type too fast sometimes. But I appreciate you taking the time to spell check my posts.

I don't find you intimidating at all. Funny, yes. Intimidating, no.

[grayarabpony]

So the thin horses show hyperinsulinemia in their blood work? Since they do improve and the physical manifestations are so difference from the horses with fat pads it sounds like a different sort of syndrome.

[Katy Watts]

So the thin horses show hyperinsulinemia in their blood work?
Yes. My worst IR horse is on the verge of too thin. Not OMG, do something, but don't want her to lose anymore. Her dam has had normal insulin levels for the last couple years since I raised her pergolide to 2 mg.


Since they do improve and the physical manifestations are so difference from the horses with fat pads it sounds like a different sort of syndrome.

My Kali can have fat pads even when she is too thin. The fad pads are totally independant of the overall body condition, in her case. Even with her diet extremely low in NSC, she must be ridden at a brisk pace on a regular basis and be quit fit to have near normal insulin levels. Winter sucks. Have had no footing safe to ride, nor has it been above 20F unless we are having a blizzard, for a couple months. When the weather is so bad they won't come out of the shed, then she gets sore feet. Have seen several other cases of this happening when horses don't move for a day or two. Met one lady who had 5 Connemara purebreds and crosses come down with laminitis after an ice storm.
I got a REALLY good picture of an emaciated horse with huge fat pads. If someone can post for me, contact privately where I can send it.
I don't think it's a different condition. More like a phase. A horse can get so insulin resistant that it is starving on the cellular level. Food goes directly to fat.
Katy

[deltawave]

What are some of the characteristics of the lean, IR horses other than poor condition? Breed, age, upbringing, management practices, other associated conditions, etc? Anyone know? Does it run in "families"?

[Katy Watts]

What are some of the characteristics of the lean, IR horses other than poor condition? Breed, age, upbringing, management practices, other associated conditions, etc? Anyone know? Does it run in "families"?

The is no epidemiological data. My thin IR ConnemaraX blew up like a ballon at 24/7 rented pasture as a 2 YO, so I brought her home to dry lot and controlled grazing. She's never been overweight since, although the fat pads come and go. Never been stalled, always large dry lot. Got Purina Jr. as a yearling (GOD, I'm sorry!) before that. Then off grain forever. Ridden at w/t very lightly as 3.5 YO. Exercise intolerant as a 4 YO. Exhausted after 20 minutes. Never pushed hard. Could NOT get her conditioned. Only went to a few schooling shows and clinics. First founder and diagnois as IR at age 5 in mid winter on hay only diet. Her dam foundered same time- that was her 3rd episode. Hay here is some of the highest in sugar in the world. Also had symtpoms of trace mineral deficiency (dry, faded coat, rain rot with no rain) due to no fortified feed and making the mistake of believing my vet when he said supplements were a waste of money. I fed the same hay he fed his own horses.
The lady I met who had 5 Connemaras get laminitis after an ice storm.... she has a very bad off mother/daughter pair, chronic so long P3 is gone. They just hobble. That dam is the full sister to my Connemara's sire.
Katy

[deltawave]

So your story contains intimations of breed predilection as well as a strong "familial" (two mother-daughter pairs) link.

EqT, a lot of yours are Thoroughbreds, right? Or am I mistaken?

This would not be something for which it would be difficult to put together a database.
Of course there would have to be consensus on how the diagnosis is made (self-diagnosis doesn't count) and that might be the toughest part.

[Appassionato]

So your story contains intimations of breed predilection as well as a strong "familial" (two mother-daughter pairs) link.

EqT, a lot of yours are Thoroughbreds, right? Or am I mistaken?

This would not be something for which it would be difficult to put together a database.
Of course there would have to be consensus on how the diagnosis is made (self-diagnosis doesn't count) and that might be the toughest part.

The Horse reported that the equine genome sequence was completed last spring, correct? I think the major support/drive for it was laminitis research, which I believe would include metabolic issues as well...or should!

FTR (COTH consensus?), mine is a 1984 TB. Sire was Plum Bold by Bold Ruler and dam was Amber Say Good by Amberbee. ;)

[Katy Watts]

So your story contains intimations of breed predilection

Pre-laminitic metabolic syndrome in genetically predisposed ponies involves compensated insulin
DS Kronfeld, TM Hess, BM Byrd, RK Splan - J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl), 2005 -

In this study in a herd of inbred Welsh ponies, it was found actrd like a dominant gene that was passed through the stallions and expressed in the mares. I saw the geneticist present twice at conferences. The farm records show the laminitic ponies trace back to 1 stallion and 2 mares imported around 1900. Regular Christmas tree form.

Other researchers have told me it's probably polygenic. Hence it would be reasonable that my ConnemaraX who is 3/4 pony is worse off than her dam who is only half pony.
Katy

[grayarabpony]

EqTrainer mentioned thin IR horses that do not have fat pads, I believe.

[Appassionato]

Pre-laminitic metabolic syndrome in genetically predisposed ponies involves compensated insulin
DS Kronfeld, TM Hess, BM Byrd, RK Splan - J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl), 2005 -

In this study in a herd of inbred Welsh ponies, it was found actrd like a dominant gene that was passed through the stallions and expressed in the mares. I saw the geneticist present twice at conferences. The farm records show the laminitic ponies trace back to 1 stallion and 2 mares imported around 1900. Regular Christmas tree form.

Other researchers have told me it's probably polygenic. Hence it would be reasonable that my ConnemaraX who is 3/4 pony is worse off than her dam who is only half pony.
Katy

The title of the article brings up a point: there are two ematbolic horses at the place Bo is at, 1 I've suspected of Cushing's and the daughter of the possible Cushingoid I've suspected is metabolic but I don't know which metabolic condition she has. In any case, only the daughter has been laminitic and only once that I know of (not treated). Both are fed sweet feed and round bales of coastal bermuda. I'm NOT asking for my own horse, but I can't help but to wonder since other than foundering over two years ago, and this winter he finally showed general malaise and grew long hair...how many are "flying under the radar"? Generally, only problems call for testing. Not arguing, but when looking at laminitis as a factor...how many weren't included in the study?

[criss]

A study regarding POP accumuation in humans:

http://www.umweltbundesamt.de/survey-e/us98/organo.htm

Given the length of time it takes for any significant levels to accumulate in human populations and taking into consideration that horses are showing signs of metabolic disorders prior to the age of 10 and rarely/never live past their 30's and eat a very low fat diet compared to humans, the likelihood that POP blood accumulations are responsible seems extremely unlikely.

I'm not sure why you say that. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few reasons why the cross-species comparisons you're thinking of might be invalid (or might not, but we don't know): First, horses don't live as long as we do, so a 10yo horse might be more like, say, a 40yo human than like a 10yo human. Second, maybe they are much more sensitive to some toxins than we are (and maybe there are some that go the opposite way, that don't affect horses but affect humans in tiny quantities). I'm sure there are other considerations, but those are the ones that occurred to me right away.

This part makes me wonder, too: "The higher concentration with a higher BMI reflects the exposure via fat containing food." Do they mean that higher-BMI individuals are assumed to eat more fatty foods, and that's where the correlation comes from? If so, that's a flawed assumption (and I hope we can agree about that without discussing the rest...even if you think it's a simple case of fat people eating more than thin people, it should be straightforward that eating more doesn't necessarily mean eating more fat). But if there is a grain of truth (so to speak...) in what they're saying, that maybe eating more fat causes higher concentrations of POPs, then there's something to make one go "Hmmm", since one thing a lot of us have done in the last decade or two is increase the amount of fat in our competitive horses' diets. I'm NOT saying that's the answer, but I am saying there are many, many possibilities, and that's the one that sprang to MY mind.

[Calena]

I can add one horse to support the 'no signs/no symptoms' except a thin horse, very hard keeper. Breed 1/2 Arab 1/2 App, no fat pads, plenty of work. He was in my last barn where (God bless her) the BO had talked with a nutritionist years ago and put the whole barn on a low NSC diet. He did fine there, except for the problem of being thin. The owners moved to their own place, switched to a sweet feed and BAM! The horse foundered and rotated within a few weeks of the move. He was 18 yo at the time. Diagnosed with Cushings and put on Pergolide. Besides the ribbiness, there was nothing to indicate this horse had Cushings.

Dr. Kellon has a database over on the yahoo Cushing's Group site with all the horses formally diagnosed entered into it. According to the data collected, #1 probable candidate is chestnut Morgan mares. I don't remember if age is taken into consideration, I'll have to find the data and read it again. We know the geriatrics are highly prone to it.

[Calena]

I'm not sure why you say that. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few reasons why the cross-species comparisons you're thinking of might be invalid (or might not, but we don't know): First, horses don't live as long as we do, so a 10yo horse might be more like, say, a 40yo human than like a 10yo human. Second, maybe they are much more sensitive to some toxins than we are (and maybe there are some that go the opposite way, that don't affect horses but affect humans in tiny quantities). I'm sure there are other considerations, but those are the ones that occurred to me right away.

This part makes me wonder, too: "The higher concentration with a higher BMI reflects the exposure via fat containing food." Do they mean that higher-BMI individuals are assumed to eat more fatty foods, and that's where the correlation comes from? If so, that's a flawed assumption (and I hope we can agree about that without discussing the rest...even if you think it's a simple case of fat people eating more than thin people, it should be straightforward that eating more doesn't necessarily mean eating more fat). But if there is a grain of truth (so to speak...) in what they're saying, that maybe eating more fat causes higher concentrations of POPs, then there's something to make one go "Hmmm", since one thing a lot of us have done in the last decade or two is increase the amount of fat in our competitive horses' diets. I'm NOT saying that's the answer, but I am saying there are many, many possibilities, and that's the one that sprang to MY mind.

Sorry, we were posting at the same time :). I had to go back and re-read the original data.

If you read the data, the signficance of age refers to both the amounts of POP's in active use at the time and the length of time POP's have been accumulating in the blood. Therefore, the accumulation of the POP's in the population is much less in the younger population, who weren't alive as long and haven't had the same level of exposure. In that light, modern horses would fall into the 'very little exposure' category, so we would expect the instance of IR to be less today than it was 30 or 40 years ago. The truth is, we don't have good data on prior generations of horses, because the disease wasn't recognized or tracked.

Regarding the reference to BMI scores -

Organochlorine compounds are lipophilic and accumulate in the bodyThe POP's are fat-soluble and accumulate in fat. The result is that older, heavier people have a signficantly higher amount in their blood than younger or thinner people.

Is this making sense?

[Appassionato]

Sorry, we were posting at the same time :). I had to go back and re-read the original data.

If you read the data, the signficance of age refers to both the amounts of POP's in active use at the time and the length of time POP's have been accumulating in the blood. Therefore, the accumulation of the POP's in the population is much less in the younger population, who weren't alive as long and haven't had the same level of exposure. In that light, modern horses would fall into the 'very little exposure' category, so we would expect the instance of IR to be less today than it was 30 or 40 years ago. The truth is, we don't have good data on prior generations of horses, because the disease wasn't recognized or tracked.

Regarding the reference to BMI scores -

The POP's are fat-soluble and accumulate in fat. The result is that older, heavier people have a signficantly higher amount in their blood than younger or thinner people.

Is this making sense?

I can agree with criss about people that eat more might also eat more fat overall, not as a percentage per meal but a percentage by day in comparison (in grams).

Dr. Kellon's database brings a lot of questions to me....such as iron overload in grass setting off metabolic horses? No nutritionist I have spoken to yet has heard of it. Not trying to be rude, I'm trying to be real.

The truth is, we don't have good data on prior generations of horses, because the disease wasn't recognized or tracked.

Not trying to appear sassy, I think this is why deltawave asked for a consensus based on an agreed diagnostic. I had a "no signs/no symptoms" horse too. The same horse had a reason to founder before the reason he actually foundered! On the one hand I'm not trying to monopolize the convo with my own horse, but there was NO characteristics of Cushing's nor any other metabolic disorder until over TWO years later! But two horses that are metabolic at my farm aren't even laminitic on sweet feed (granted no diagnostic, just strong symptoms)??? That's problematic in my book! Hence the tracking is flawed, I say. What is good data? When they don't call a vet, and the horse gets over soreness...they just haven't been ridden enough according to the experts here (nevermind the perfect semi-crescent shape on the sole).

Nevermind my *vent*, the real issue is until we get most horses reported, the data is whacked. :(

[Calena]

Nevermind my *vent*, the real issue is until we get most horses reported, the data is whacked. :(

100% in agreement. I was just reading through Dr. Kellon's data and it doesn't include age :no:.

According to what I've read regarding Cushings, IIRC 80% of geriatric horses will get it if they live long enough. I've had my mare tested once, but she's getting tested again this spring. I'd bet the farm she's got it. She may appear fine to anyone else, but I know my horse. She has things going on that 'old' doesn't account for. No long coat, she shines like a bulb; no laminitis; hard to describe, but some days she just has this look to her. It's definitely seasonal, I keep a journal.

[Appassionato]

100% in agreement. I was just reading through Dr. Kellon's data and it doesn't include age :no:.

According to what I've read regarding Cushings, IIRC 80% of geriatric horses will get it if they live long enough. I've had my mare tested once, but she's getting tested again this spring. I'd bet the farm she's got it. She may appear fine to anyone else, but I know my horse. She has things going on that 'old' doesn't account for. No long coat, she shines like a bulb; no laminitis; hard to describe, but some days she just has this look to her. It's definitely seasonal, I keep a journal.

Pardon me for saying so (or don't :p), but when you include other things such as standardized diagnostics as deltawave mentioned? Therein lies the difference. We have multiple sites advising dex testing for Cushing's. :no:

I would NOT tell you, Calena, to NOT get the horse tested for the world...I'd say otherwise! But I can't say I'll be advising many sites if your horse tested positive to a metabolic disorder either. There's that much BS between "www" and "com" nowadays. I've seen it and I'm really angry over it. :mad:

[deltawave]

Yes, there needs to be a FIRM consensus (if we are taking this idea of an imaginary database seriously, at least in the sphere of thinking about it) on WHAT we are calling "IR", "metabolic syndrome", "pre-Cushings", "Cushings" and even "laminitis"! No doubt there is a LOT of overlap. But if the goal is to make some sense out of a database, it needs to be BUILT PROPERLY. As the old saying goes in research circles: "garbage in, garbage out".

My inkling is that there appears to be NO good consensus on how these various maladies are diagnosed, unfortunately. A parallel is the oh-so-hot term "NSC" when talking about feeding horses. There isn't even any consensus on how THAT is defined, for pity's sake! :no:

So before drawing conclusions on anything, we (meaning both the scientific community, of which I am only a peripheral, non-researching member and interested horse people) need to acknowledge the very large gaps in what we actually know. Drawing conclusions is really, really hard (at least GOOD conclusions) with incomplete information. There are SO many more questions than answers!

What to do in the meantime? My point is to tackle the things that CAN be tackled. Fix the management, fix the diet, fix the breeding! That might mean vastly different things for different individual animals, but what is the purpose, at this point in time, of trying to deal with putative toxic effects of chemicals? Other than perhaps donating money, time, or even animal subjects for research. In 20 years we'll doubtless know more on this theoretical link, but at this point there's still a lot of more practical ground to be covered.

[Katy Watts]

The POP's are fat-soluble and accumulate in fat. The result is that older, heavier people have a signficantly higher amount in their blood than younger or thinner people.


I agree with everything Calena has said. Just wanted to clarify some more, based on what I learned in a grad level course on Environmental Toxicology at Mich State U. Some of the nastiest persistant pesticides that were used 30 years ago are on corn and cotton. Cotton boll weevil and corn root worm developed resistance to all the less toxic compounds and they had to pull out the big guns- chlorinated organophosphates. They are liphohilic, meaning they are absorbed by fat. Some of the most memorable, widely publizied pesticide mistakes happened when they started growing soybean (high fat content) on corn ground with high residues of these persistant corn insecticides. When those soybean were fed to chickens, they all got sick. The other real problem with organophosphate pesticides was accumulation in carnivores, who ate the fat of the animals who ate the grain. People, dogs, cats, eagles, etc. All these compounds have been banned in the USA for some time.
Horse are not carnivores, so bioaccumulation of lipohilic OP's like in humans should not be issue. If you fed your horse large amount of corn or soybeans such that it developed enough fat to be ready for butcher, perhaps you could blame pesticides.
But there are far more simple reasons for implicated obesity in that situation. Did the pesticide residue in the grain cause obesity? I would guess because your horse got butcher fat, although you would have to take the blame there.
Katy

[deltawave]

But there are far more simple reasons for implicated obesity in that situation. Did the pesticide residue in the grain cause obesity?

This goes back to your story of the very, very obese person filling a shopping cart with loads of "organic food". One can get QUITE fat on a very, very healthy diet. We are designed by nature to avoid starvation at all costs, and have marvelous ability to make fat out of practically nothing. :)

[hundredacres]

According to the data collected, #1 probable candidate is chestnut Morgan mares. I had a chestnut Morgan mare that had Cushings (she died at 26 from WNV though). Weird.

[LMH]

Perhaps someone could create a poll, questionaire or something to post here about IR horses...in a separate thread.

That might be interesting.:) I would but I am sure someone else is more thorough than I would be.:lol:

[matryoshka]

I'd be happy to gather info from among my trimming clients. I've got a few officially-diagnosed Cushings and officially-diagnosed IR. I can even get the bloodlines on some of these.

I've got a pony foal, parentage largely unknown that appears to be set up for IR already. At 7 months she's cresty and gains weight very easily. Heck, she was fat just from nursing and grass at 3 months of age! The vet and I have discussed her diet and I'm trying to take preventative steps to keep her from progressing into problems. The dam appears to have some Haflinger in her, but I don't know how much. She's also cresty and had trouble keeping weight this fall, but the vet ruled out Cushings via blood test. She's now just fine after weaning. Still, she's got the IR body type...

[Calena]

Pardon me for saying so (or don't :p), but when you include other things such as standardized diagnostics as deltawave mentioned? Therein lies the difference. We have multiple sites advising dex testing for Cushing's. :no:

I would NOT tell you, Calena, to NOT get the horse tested for the world...I'd say otherwise! But I can't say I'll be advising many sites if your horse tested positive to a metabolic disorder either. There's that much BS between "www" and "com" nowadays. I've seen it and I'm really angry over it. :mad:

App, you would have to know my vet ;). My mare will never be part of Dr. Kellon's database because my vet won't do an ACTH test, let alone a dex suppression test. He's going to pull a standard CBC. He'll look at the numbers, look at my mare, maybe call Ohio State and ask a question or two, look at my mare again, analyze her diet, take her age and lifestyle into account, then decide yes/no about putting her on Pergolide for the time being. He's just as likely to say "quit feeding her so many carrots and ride her more." He's old school and conservative (like me).

I'd be happy to contribute to a database, but those more qualified than me would have to develop it (see Katy, Ghazzu, DW, or such :D). I can do the tech/computer part, I'm a pro at that.

[Lookout]

WRT to the chestnut Morgan mares, I have 3 in my practice. One is 22 and shows slight crestiness and being overweight but no fat pads, and has fabulous feet (in terms of form but the quality itself leaves a little to be desired - a little 'shelly') with no risk or incidence of laminitis or founder. The other two, one in her early teens and the other early 20's, also have good feet (after the younger had her feet trimmed properly and no longer is lame with ringbone), the older one has the best set of feet I've ever been given to work on, they will not be foundering or having laminitis any time soon and show no body signs of symptoms of IR or Cushings. A black Morgan gelding does have signs of Cushings and IR he is in his late teens. But he's not foundering or having laminitis any time soon either.

[Appassionato]

App, you would have to know my vet ;). My mare will never be part of Dr. Kellon's database because my vet won't do an ACTH test, let alone a dex suppression test. He's going to pull a standard CBC. He'll look at the numbers, look at my mare, maybe call Ohio State and ask a question or two, look at my mare again, analyze her diet, take her age and lifestyle into account, then decide yes/no about putting her on Pergolide for the time being. He's just as likely to say "quit feeding her so many carrots and ride her more." He's old school and conservative (like me).

No big loss. :winkgrin:

And I ain't knocking your vet. He knows you and he knows your horse(s). The founder vet and Jaye laugh that in our little circle of three, "sound" isn't the soundness you all normally think of. :lol:

I'd be happy to contribute to a database, but those more qualified than me would have to develop it (see Katy, Ghazzu, DW, or such :D). I can do the tech/computer part, I'm a pro at that.

I think that is a GREAT idea! I also think CBCs are good. What does everyone think? A COTH Cushing's/Metabolic database?

[Su Valley]

I read this entire thread with a great deal of interest-I am a curious sort.

And reading through the comments on our current horsekeeping practices, I have to wonder just how accurate Pete Ramey was when he recommended changing not just the manner in which we feed, but what we feed.

His basic recommendation was low protien, mixed grasses, fed out in very small amounts over as large an area as a person can manage, as many times a day as possible. The goal is to provide a more "natural" grazing type feeding regimen, coupled with the additional exercise that true foraging would provide if it were possible. This is for the dry lot type situation, his ideas for pasture involved a lot of fencing ;)

I am hoping to approximate that sort of situation on my own small property this coming summer, to get my horse moving more. I already feed a local mixed grass hay as part of the diet-very low protien, but the bulk is very high quality timothy or orchard grass, with a bit of alfie thrown in. This coming season I plan on stocking up on the hay that most horse people turn their noses up at, and inverting the ratio. I am already on a "low carb" type approach with supplemental concentrates-just enough to get vit/min down once a day.

Thoughts?

[deltawave]

I think it's hard to go wrong with a general plan of keeping things as close as possible to what Nature intended. :)

[Calena]

I think that is a GREAT idea! I also think CBCs are good. What does everyone think? A COTH Cushing's/Metabolic database?

Well then, you need to confer with the super-intellects-that-be and develop the questionnaire and post the thread :D.

I can do the tech part, organizing random data into useful information is what I do. I can make the stuff jump up and down and sing and dance and upload reports, but the value of the results is always determined by the viability of the data collected. Being as this isn't likely to compete with the human genome project *LOL*, I see few limits to the amount of info we can collect and analyze.

[matryoshka]

Su Valley, are you talking about the "pasture paradise" or another option? I went to one of his trimming clinics last June, and he talked about the pasture paradise. His clinic was followed by Dr. Bowker and Katy Watts. Unfortunately, because of the extended school year, I couldn't stay for Dr. Bowker or Katy. :no:

I considered doing the "pasture paradise" for my own herd last year, but I had a mare and foal to contend with. It just didn't seem safe to rig up electric fence to give them a perimeter to travel around. I might do it this year, though, depending on whether I can locate enough hay to place around.

Ramey sure gives a good, enjoyable clinic. I learned a lot, and it didn't even hurt my brain or my butt to attend. He answered a lot of the questions that had been brewing in my little brain without me ever having to ask. And he did really stress the importance of managing a horse's diet to prevent laminitis or to treat founder, once it has occurred.

The proof to me is in a little Icelandic mare I trim. At one point she had suffered 22 degrees of rotation from grass founder. An amateur following Pete Ramey and Paul Chapman's advice was able to bring her feet back under control (there was a LOT of separation). I was called in last winter after the mare had gotten loose and downed 60 pounds of grain in about an hour. They iced her for 36 hours and managed to prevent a lot of hoof damage, but the hoof capsule still had some rotation.

Now you'd never know she had suffered founder at all. She has barely any rings and the faint ones visible are evenly spaced all the way from heel to toe. They have gotten the diet right for this mare and are very conscientious about sticking to it. She is glowing with health. She can have no green grass at all. Their biggest trouble is that she is a Houdini and manages to let herself out of the dry lot in very creative ways. I swear she has a death wish!